Hoarders - General Discussion

[Elizzikra]

22 minutes ago, auntjess said:

Is she still able to work?  Just because she's a little person doesn't mean she can hold a job necessarily?
Look at people on the other shows who have homes and jobs.  
 

I don't know if she can now but she worked in a bookstore for like 16 years so she has work history.

[Ligeia]

15 hours ago, AZChristian said:

One of the things I always liked about Kim and Aggie on British TV's "How Clean Is Your House?" is that there was no psychologist trying to understand why houses were dirty or over-filled.  K&A came in, told the occupant(s) that they needed to change their priorities to keep a healthy environment, cleaned (with the help of a crew), and then (usually) left them with a list of what to do every day to keep the place tidy.  Most of the participants maintained a much better level of cleanliness, because they started from square one with a clean house.  None of them seemed traumatized by the loss of their filth.

In France we used to have a show like that, and it was very good. The hoarders were not as severe as seen on the Hoarders show though. There was no psychologist either and it was all the better for that.

The thing with shrinks and coddling is that it tends to maintain people in a position of a victim and it does not encourage them to take charge and change anything. It's especially ironic since hoarders, more often than not, are actually abusers rather than victims. Being seen as a victim is very comfortable for them and actually enables more abuse ("I won't get rid of anything or I'll be traumatized !" ; "if you want me to change it means you want to hurt me !"). Shrinks should be there for the abused family members, not the hoarders.

On a side note, this "victim/abuser" reversal happens way, way too often in our western societies today and it is not right.

The "traumatize" excuse is infuriating because, in all honesty, who cares if those people, who ruined most of their relatives' lives and especially their children's, are bothered because stuff was thrown out ? I'm all for compassion and understanding but it has its limits. Some people are just inherently rotten and irredeemable and it's a waste of time and energy to try to understand them, they'll never change and being understanding actually does more bad than good because it enables them. Not everyone has some good inside, this is a fairytale. My compassion is for the actual victims here, the people who are abused by the hoarders.

I also hate the way the excuses hoarders make are always seen as valid ("but my mom died 36 years ago !!!"). For starters they're almost always lying, when you pay attention you see the hoarding started before the "excuse event" took place. And I'm sorry but having close relatives die is absolutely no excuse to make a living hell out of the lives of your remaining relatives, especially your children. Everyone sees close ones die in their lives, and normal sane people do not use this as an excuse to do whatever crosses their minds.

And even if there was a valid excuse, understanding why you started doing bad things in the first place does not always help, by a long shot. This is another Freudian fairytale that needs to end. Understanding why you do what you do does not make you magically stop doing it. It can even be quite often harmful because it lends an excuse which, once again, is enabling. Why change if you have a "valid" reason to do what you do ?

Edited October 30, 2021 by Ligeia

[JudyObscure]

Go get 'em Ligeia! 

I, too, am sick of the, "my mother died 36 years ago," bit.  I'm also tired of the  big hole inside that needs to be filled with plastic purses, the grieving that was never properly  done, and the time "my father threw out some old toys while I was at school."

Could it possibly be that some of these people are just plain lazy?  In lots of cases I think the big turning point was not when their mother died, but the day they got home from Target with ten bags of junk and rather than put it away dropped it in the doorway. 

Let that happen a few times while leaving the dishes to "soak" and within weeks they have a rather daunting mess to clean up, so they just never do it.  Because they're "overwhelmed." 

Where was Dorothy this time?  Did she finally explode?

 

 

 

[AZChristian]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Could it possibly be that some of these people are just plain lazy?  In lots of cases I think the big turning point was not when their mother died, but the day they got home from Target with ten bags of junk and rather than put it away dropped it in the doorway. 

Let that happen a few times while leaving the dishes to "soak" and within weeks they have a rather daunting mess to clean up, so they just never do it.  Because they're "overwhelmed." 

Think about it this way.  They say, "I started to hoard 36 years ago when my mother died."  That actually translates (for some of these people) to "The crap started piling up 36 years ago after my mother died, because she wasn't making me clean up . . . or cleaning up after me."  So there is a connection - just not one that needs sympathy or coddling. 

This "look what happened to me when I was a child" philosophy also runs rampant on "My 600-Pound Life."  Almost every obese person talks about being molested or bullied as a child as a reason for their weight.

Bull.  Yes, being molested (as I once heard on a TV show) "changes a child instantly and forever."  However, it does not guarantee that it will ruin the child's life and make them unable to function even near to a level of normalcy.

I know whereof I speak.  Even at the age of 74, I occasionally sit down with a book to help me work through things that were probably rooted in the 12 years of childhood sexual abuse I endured.  People have a choice to put as much effort into being victors over instead of lifetime victims of this type of abuse.

Many of the people we see on TV are wallowing in victimhood.  It takes a lot of emotional and/or physical energy to reach their levels of laziness and overeating; for them, that energy is wasted.  They would do better to CHOOSE to invest that energy in seeking emotional improvement.  And it can be done for free.  It costs nothing to get books at the library; it's a great place to start.

[jacksgirl]

AZ Christian, I commend you for your story. For some reason, you had the luck, strength, intelligence, support to overcome your horrific childhood. Why were you were able to succeed and have a happy life while others do not remains a mystery. No doubt self-help and/or seeking mental health support is a key. Wishing you happiness and peace.

[AZChristian]

47 minutes ago, jacksgirl said:

No doubt self-help and/or seeking mental health support is a key. Wishing you happiness and peace.

Thanks for your kind words.  It doesn't seem (for me) to be a "one and done" on the support.  Just this past month, I found myself reacting with an abnormal level of rage to something that for others might have been - at most - a normal irritational interchange. 

Recognizing that my reaction was "off," I went back to the library and found an amazing book about Complex PTSD.  It is defined as the type of PTSD that occurs from recurring childhood abuse (rather than shorter-term major stresses like being the victim of a rape or even military service).  It has been a real "booster shot" to my coping skills to read about how even a minor irritation can trigger reactions that are really about the abuse . . . not about the current situation.  The book offers coping skills, and just reading the affirmation that I'm not a raging nasty person by choice has been immensely helpful to both me and - in a supporting role - my husband.

My motto is:  Living well is the best revenge.  And - most of the time, I am a happy, compassionate person.  In that, I live well.

 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

The thing with shrinks and coddling is that it tends to maintain people in a position of a victim and it does not encourage them to take charge and change anything. It's especially ironic since hoarders, more often than not, are actually abusers rather than victims. Being seen as a victim is very comfortable for them and actually enables more abuse ("I won't get rid of anything or I'll be traumatized !" ; "if you want me to change it means you want to hurt me !"). Shrinks should be there for the abused family members, not the hoarders.

A good "shrink" doesn't coddle. Therapy isn't about encouraging "victimhood" nor is it about enabling continued dysfunctional behavior. The reason you want to get to the root of the problem is to address it and eliminate the behavior permanently. Do you want to take painkillers forever or do you want to find the tumor, take it out and get rid of the source of the pain. I don't see any reason that we can't have therapeutic support and empathy for both the hoarders and the people who are harmed by their hoarding. There's plenty to go around. It's not pie.

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Why change if you have a "valid" reason to do what you do ?

Because you learn that your response to that "valid reason" is no longer serving you well and you want to live a better life.

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Could it possibly be that some of these people are just plain lazy?

Well sure. I imagine that laziness as a character trait is as identifiable in the population of mentally ill people as it is in the population of non-mentally ill people. But I don't think that all hoarders are inherently lazy and certainly not all lazy people become hoarders.

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People have a choice to put as much effort into being victors over instead of lifetime victims of this type of abuse.

Many of the people we see on TV are wallowing in victimhood.  It takes a lot of emotional and/or physical energy to reach their levels of laziness and overeating; for them, that energy is wasted.  They would do better to CHOOSE to invest that energy in seeking emotional improvement.  And it can be done for free.  It costs nothing to get books at the library; it's a great place to start.

 

I agree, to a degree. Resilience is a trait that people possess in various degrees. People who overcome challenges and trauma have a high degree of resilience and I don't think that we know why some people have more than others. As someone who has had clinical depression since early childhood, I can say that there were points in my life that I was absolutely NOT capable of simply choosing to be better. I wasn't wallowing in victimhood. I wasn't choosing depression any more than I choose diabetes. Some days I barely had energy to get out of bed and take care of basic needs; I certainly didn't have the wherewithal to go to the library and read some self-help books. 

I don't mean to excuse the behavior of the hoarders featured on this show. Many of them have done a great deal of damage to their loved ones and I feel a tremendous amount of compassion for them. Some of them are just downright unlikeable people. But I do believe that hoarding is a mental illness and like all mental illnesses, it's stigmatized and misunderstood. It doesn't help to label mentally ill people as lazy or unmotivated or wallowing in victimhood. It just makes it that much harder for them to seek help and get better.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I absolutely agree about the hoarder's statements about "it started when someone died", that means that whoever stopped the hoard from spreading, wasn't there to stop it any longer.

In Tiffany's case, I bet the hoard grew when the sister moved out, 15 years before, and then the sister could get her way and spread her books, and other junk everywhere.   I suspect the parents moved downstairs, and abandoned the upstairs to Tiffany.     Tiffany is lucky that Becky still had a relationship with her, because to me it was obvious that Becky didn't matter to anyone in the family.   Everything was centered on Tiffany and whatever she wanted was done.   

The Tiffany-Becky situation reminds me so much of a relative.  My relative was the only child for about 10 years, and when the younger brother was born, Jeanne (not even close to her real name) could have disappeared, and the parents wouldn't have noticed.    The brother was spoiled, entitled, and everything he did was wonderful to the parents.   Jeanne is a lovely person, and the way her parents treated her was disgusting.    The same treatment carried over to the grandchildren too.   

Being the Golden Child or the scape goat in the family  hurts everyone.     

In Becky's case, since Tiffany didn't want to sell the house, I would deed it over to her, and give her a 30-day notice to leave my house.    I bet when the car is finished, that Tiffany will demand that Becky and her husband sell it, and give her the money.     I think Tiffany wants to fix the parent's house, have everything modified for her, so she can have the entire house for herself, and her hoard.   

Edited October 30, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[BrownBear2012]

On 10/27/2021 at 10:23 AM, AZChristian said:

My heart broke for Becky.  Her marriage is unstable and the major cause of that instability seems to be her sister, whose lifestyle impacts anyone nearby.  And it doesn't look like Tiffany will ever live anywhere BUT nearby.  Plus, her daughter was so demonstrative of her affection for her aunt . . . constantly touching her and always by her side.  Mama needed daughter to show some of that affection to her.  

I had a brother who was a hoarder.  It was nothing like what we saw on this episode, but over 1,000 DVDs/VHS movies in a 400 SF apartment, not to mention multiples of EVERYTHING, plus tacky plastic flowers and 20+ large popcorn tins of "decor" items for a place without a clear surface to decorate.

We begged him for the last few years of his life to start donating his "valuable" decor items and to allow us to go through stacks of paperwork and shred what didn't need to be kept (about 80% of what was there).  He laughed and said, "You just don't want to have to clean this up when I die."  He was absolutely right.  Every time we went to his place, we felt the foreboding doom of having to do just that, and his lack of concern about the work he was assigning to us did not help our relationship at all.

Then he died.  Less than 1% of what he had was kept by family members, and the rest was donated or disposed of within one week.  Thank God his place was small.

About Tiffany:  No way that place just got that bad after her parents died.  They must have supported her hoarding proclivities and helped neatly stack those pristine books.  But then we saw THEIR stuff.  At least Tiffany's stuff looked tidier and better organized - but she still had WAY too much.  She was smiling and happy because she was getting so much attention from the people involved with the filming, and that outweighed her feelings about her stuff.  I suspect Becky was probably off to the side thinking, "You weren't so cooperative when WE tried to get you to get rid of stuff.  But now you're the little princess, getting all the attention.  Again."

I found a lot of this episode to be very sad.

And to top it off, Becky's daughter seems to be drifting away from her and bonding with Tiffany. 

[all4mom2]

3 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

And to top it off, Becky's daughter seems to be drifting away from her and bonding with Tiffany. 

What was with the niece holding her hand or at least having one hand resting on Tiffany the whole time?  That was just plain weird!

I agree with the whole "trauma" thing.  Who among us hasn't suffered some loss, heartbreak, or trauma in life?  You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone, yet we don't all become hoarders or gain 500 pounds.  Focus on practical solutions immediately and behavior modification going forward.

I didn't miss camera-loving Dorothy this episode.  Go home, Dorothy!

Edited October 30, 2021 by all4mom2

[Ligeia]

18 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Because you learn that your response to that "valid reason" is no longer serving you well and you want to live a better life.

Learning that means you actually have some brain cells and goodwill in the first place. And what exactly does "serve you well" means ? What exactly is a "better life" ? I think many hoarders are perfectly fine living on a mountain of filth and see absolutely no wrong in everything they do. They see themselves as victims of all the mean people who want to intrude and take away their treasures. They just don't have the same vision of what a "good life" is. What matters to them is that they have their way, they don't care about other people.

And as I said, knowing why you do something does not make you automatically stop doing it. Knowing some past traumatic event triggerred some compulsive disorder does not make said traumatic event, nor its effects, magically disappear. It can help sometimes but to me it's mostly useless and an excuse to wallow in victimhood. I also talk from personal experience. By always bringing up some traumatic past event you keep it in the present and let it define who you are now, while sometimes it's best to just let it go and keep it where it belongs, in the past.

Like all4mom2 said very well, most people suffer from various traumatic stuff through their lives, that's just life and human nature. True "survivors" are not people who wear their trauma on their sleeve, imposing it to everyone and going "my xxx died / I was xxx as a child" etc, as their first bit of self introduction ; "survivors" are people who don't let this define who they are and don't use it as an excuse. Well sorry for the digression lol 😅

Edited October 31, 2021 by Ligeia

[JudyObscure]

The sorry thing is i agree with everything Elizzikra says and then agree with everything Ligeia just said and everyone else has said for the last five or six posts.  

I've always been that way about the hoarders, sympathetic one minute and annoyed with them the next. 

In this last case I agree with all the sympathy CrazyInAlabama has for Becky.  I, too, have seen (and Experienced) how hurtful it is to have parents favor one child over another and I'm sure Becky has felt a burden of care toward Tiffany all her life. 

Yet, look at Tiffany's life.  She had to watch Becky be like everyone else in school, while she herself was stared at. Becky got to have boyfriends and go to prom, then go off to college, date, marry and have a child -- all things Tiffany was never able to have.  So even though Becky may feel burdened by Tiffany I don't think it's really Tiffany's fault that she needs that help and I end up feeling sorry for all concerned.

[Elizzikra]

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most people suffer from various traumatic stuff through their lives, that's just life and human nature.

A lot of people experience negative things in their life. I think we maybe throw the word "trauma" around a lot when we really mean "grief and loss" or "a shitty experience" or "a sad breakup." 

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And as I said, knowing why you do something does not make you automatically stop doing it. Knowing some past traumatic event triggerred some compulsive disorder does not make said traumatic event, nor its effects, magically disappear. It can help sometimes but to me it's mostly useless and an excuse to wallow in victimhood.

I'm sorry that has been your experience. I have a fair amount of experience with trauma as well and I can say that, for most people I know who have effectively dealt with trauma, they have taken steps to understand it and how it impacts their behaviors. People hoard (or drink, or gamble, or do drugs) because it helps them in some way. They continue maladaptive coping mechanisms until they realize that they no longer serve them well (the county threatens to take their house; they get a DUI; they lose all their money; they lose their families; they end up overdosed in a hospital bed) and they choose change. Some never get there and that's sad, but that doesn't make them less deserving of empathy.

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"survivors" are people who don't let this define who they are and don't use it as an excuse.

 

Really? I think "survivor" means a lot of different things. For someone who has experienced a multitude of trauma throughout his/her life, I think just getting to the next day alive is "surviving" - I don't give a damn what they "wear on their sleeve." You say "excuse." I say "explanation." I think it's great if you worked through whatever happened in your life and you were able to move on. I can think that is great for you and still have empathy for people who, for whatever reason, haven't been able to do that.

[auntjess]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:36 AM, JudyObscure said:

Yet, look at Tiffany's life.  She had to watch Becky be like everyone else in school, while she herself was stared at. Becky got to have boyfriends and go to prom, then go off to college, date, marry and have a child -- all things Tiffany was never able to have.  So even though Becky may feel burdened by Tiffany I don't think it's really Tiffany's fault that she needs that help and I end up feeling sorry for all concerned.

Tiffany talked about things from the Little People of America, so I think she was involved in that, and probably socialized there.  
I know some of the little people on other shows meet and date people there.  So Tif wasn't just shunted aside, and may have had more attention from her parents.
Becky can only do so much, and she's entitled to her life and also a share of the house.  If anything, she deserves more, because Tiffany is the one who destroyed.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Paul, retired interior designer, from Jacksonville, FL.    He actually admits he's a hoarder.   Artwork, sculptures, paintings, mirrors, furniture, fabrics, bird baths, Hawaiian shirts, lamps & shades,  The house is so full that the front and back yard are filling up.  He likes to pick stuff up from the side of the road.    The preview shows Dorothy getting upset.  Paul has a friend that's an organizer, and she's stumped.   

The house is two stories, packed full.   Paul's father was a hoarder/collector too, so Paul's been doing this from a young age.   Paul moved in with his late partner Skip, and it limited the stuff.    Then, Paul started moving in more stuff. hiding it from Skip, in Skips house.   Then, Skip fell, and died a few days later.    Then, Paul filled the house to the rafters, and somewhere in the house, Skip's ashes are lost.   

Only one person in the family is really connected to Paul, his niece, and she's never been to the house.   His sister Colleen, was only at the house six years ago.      There's another sister too.  The sister Colleen, and her daughter Alicia came for the clean up.   Six years ago after Skip died, Colleen helped to clear out a lot, and everything is much worse now.    Paul doesn't even notice the mold, and stench any more.    Alicia, the niece, bring her two babies to meet Paul.  

The clean out crew is Stand Up Guys, and Alicia's husband is the CEO of the company.   

Paul says he wants to clean up, but I don't believe it for a second. Dr. Zasio shows up, and Dorothy is on the case too.   On Day 1, Paul meltsdown.   Then, he's doing well at first in the front yard.   It drives me bonkers, Paul constantly has his mask below his nose.  The front yard looks great after clean up.  The 20' tall picture of the palm trees does nothing for me.     Good point by the niece, that if some paintings don't sell, then Paul will bring them back to the house.  Cheryl the organizer Paul knows, will house the art work that doesn't sell, but she doesn't have a warehouse space.   When they get to the kitchen stuff, almost everything is a 'keep'.   Cleaning the stair off, they find a live possum living under the stairs.     The art sale on the road is a total bust, they sent out notices to thousands, and very few people showed up, with 10 customers, and $300 earned.     Paul called a consignment person for the art, lamps & shade, antiques. 

Niece Alicia says Paul is getting rid of lots, but keeping way too much too. They finally find Skip's ashes.   Now that they're almost out of time, Dorothy fills the garage, and turns two house rooms into storage.   The house rugs look so nasty.     However clean the place is, there are still three huge rooms full of boxes, and other items. 

BSOJ-Paul is strugging to clean out the boxes, some of the art was damaged by rain.   He accepted aftercare, and plans to go to sessions.  (My cynical view is that saying he's going to go to aftercare, doesn't mean he will). 

Edited November 2, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[enoughcats]

56 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

BSOJ-Paul is strugging to clean out the boxes, some of the art was damaged by rain.   He accepted aftercare, and plans to go to sessions.  

I was frustrated watching this one.  Too much stuff. All that "art work". When Paul was pointing where it should go, I thought he didn't need to touch any of it because I doubted than he remembered more than a percent of it.  Also, how did he get that Palms painting to his house much less into it without several people helping him? I just stopped caring about him.  Sort of like Dr. Z disappearing.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I'm sure the Palms picture was delivered.    And made it to the front hallway, and that's where it stayed.    There wasn't even anywhere to hang it properly in that house. 

The bad thing about the consignment shop is that usually if something doesn't sell for the agreed on price, in the agreed on time, it goes back to Paul.    And added to the hoard.    The sister said they cleaned a lot out when Skip died, and that was about six or so years ago.    I bet that with the garage of art work, the two rooms full of boxes, and whatever Paul locates by the side of the road, the house will be full of stuff again.    

I couldn't believe he lost Skip's ashes in the piles of junk.  

[Gravity Check]

I have a stalker (sigh), who is mentally ill but can "pass" as normal for a short time, who considers himself an artist, and has a great head of thick white hair, so Paul put my nerves on edge from the second he came on screen.

I missed the first two episodes this season due to my DVR being temperamental, and I don't know how the first two hoarders were, so the one good thing I'll say about Paul is that there were no science experiments or nasty toilets or dead animals in the hoard, or other things that made me want to throw up. And the things he thought were treasures were actually quite nice.

I laughed when they showed the possum. Any other O.G. Hoarders watchers who remember the social media account "The Possum From Hoarders"? Shout-out!

I'm sure they'll find every storage box still stacked up and still in place when Paul leaves this mortal coil, but as long as he doesn't junk up the clean parts of the house and yards, he should be very happy, and so should his relatives (and neighbors).

Edited November 2, 2021 by Gravity Check

[JudyObscure]

Well I was disappointed with the Paul show on two counts.

First, when his sister said Paul had no gating system when he got mad, I thought she was foreshadowing an entertaining hoarder-rant of epic proportions and it never happened.  Just a dozen crying spells with lots of snot snuffling behind the mask which made me want Paul sent off to a corner with a box of tissues.

Second, I fought the Sandman for the last hour waiting to see this fabulous house revealed in all it's beauty, but as usual they went through the final shots too quickly and as bright and colorful as his stuff was, the end result was still too busy for my taste.

Why did Paul's hoard prevent him from ever meeting his grandchildren?  Couldn't Alicia have invited him to her house?  We hear this sort of thing about the hoarders all the time, that they have to clean out the hoard to see their family. Before the Covid they could have family meet-ups at restaurants and even now, they all could meet for  picnics at the city park.  

[Burning Rubber]

I know a thing or two about lighting and all the lamps were trash.

I know a thing or two about art as well, and the market for print reproductions is almost nonexistent. I am surprised anyone came to their sale and they got $300.  I suspect all the clients were production staff. I saw very few that looked like originals (they were mediocre) and spotted a clown that told me everything I needed to know about his tastes.

[suzeecat]

If I took anything away from this episode it was that I NEVER want to have a messy, ugly cry while wearing a mask . . .

[suzeecat]

11 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I'm sure the Palms picture was delivered.    And made it to the front hallway, and that's where it stayed.    There wasn't even anywhere to hang it properly in that house.

Yes!  When they were struggling to get it out, I was wondering how they got it IN in the first place?  And, what is the point of having a piece like that?  Was that from the set of "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood"?

[AZChristian]

I laugh when these hoarders brag about their artwork.  My hoarder brother once told me he had some "museum-quality" art.

When he died and we cleaned out his mess, I found one picture that I liked that seemed to me to be the best of what he had.  

It's now hanging in the enclosed Arizona room (porch) at our house.  One just like it is on the wall of the nearby Texas Roadhouse restaurant.  Which I now refer to as the Texas Roadhouse museum (because of its artwork).

Edited November 2, 2021 by AZChristian

[CrazyInAlabama]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Why did Paul's hoard prevent him from ever meeting his grandchildren?  Couldn't Alicia have invited him to her house?  We hear this sort of thing about the hoarders all the time, that they have to clean out the hoard to see their family. Before the Covid they could have family meet-ups at restaurants and even now, they all could meet for  picnics at the city park. 

I wondered about that also, but maybe Paul didn't do much traveling, because he was gathering junk from trash piles, or going to the thrift store, or garage sales.     

I was disgusted when Paul lost Skip's ashes in the hoard, and I noticed that Paul mentioned a few times that when Paul started hoarding the house, that Skip was very unhappy with him.   I suspect that eventually Skip would have told Paul to clean up or else.      

I really didn't feel sorry for Paul, but Paul certainly felt sorry for himself.  He hoarded another man's house, and ruined his life.    Also, the sister said that after Skip died the family cleaned out to where the floor was visible, so I suspect that soon Paul will unbox everything, get the unsold consignment stuff back, and drag the art work (I really mean non-art work, that stuff was cheap junk) back into the house.   I bet you can't see the floor in the house again.   I bet he's already trashed the yard again too. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Sassyone]

2 hours ago, Burning Rubber said:

I know a thing or two about lighting and all the lamps were trash.

I know a thing or two about art as well, and the market for print reproductions is almost nonexistent. I am surprised anyone came to their sale and they got $300.  I suspect all the clients were production staff. I saw very few that looked like originals (they were mediocre) and spotted a clown that told me everything I needed to know about his tastes.

So much for the stereotype of gay men having fabulous taste. That place was so tacky! 

Also, fun fact: I looked up Skip on Google, and he was well-known for beautifying his community. His motto was "Nice people don't litter." A tribute to him said that "Scenic beauty was his delight, for his home, this park and the Boulevard trees."  Heh.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Sassyone said:

"Nice people don't litter."

That might be really hard to live with. 

Something strange: From my short search, it reads as if Skip is still the owner of record of the property.  Which may bring up a question of who inherited the property, if there was no will?

[Claire85]

I noticed Paul spent a lot of the time sitting or lying down while others did the work. That’s a pet peeve of mine. 

[Elizzikra]

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Which may bring up a question of who inherited the property, if there was no will?

I wondered about that too. I also wasn't clear - were Skip and Paul legally married or just considered themselves partners. If they were married, the house would pass to Paul as the spouse, but apart from that, it could be tricky.

[lu1535]

This was in my hometown!! No one told me the Zaz was here in town and I didn't receive an invitation to the art show either. Darn.

I found the house and the property appraisal site says Paul's the owner.

After the show calms down I'll go drive by, he's just up the road, and report back on the front yard.

He annoyed me and seemed very self absorbed. Poor Skip.

[LGraves65]

My MIL uses tears to manipulate, so Paul got on my last nerve.  How did no one mention that Skip died because of the hoard?  "He fell." Yes, BECAUSE HE TRIPPED ON YOUR CRAP.

There is no way he kept that house clean.  His demeanor was so flat at the reveal; I expected him to act like Debra from S3 (I think) with all her it's-not-me-I-hate-it.

Edited November 3, 2021 by LGraves65

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think Skip's bedroom had a step down, so combined with the hoard, it could have led to a misstep, and a fall.     I hate when someone moves in, and hoards the other person's house.    Paul absolutely took advantage of Skip. 

I see zero chance that the house isn't trashed inside already, and I bet the yard will be filled soon too.     When the consignment period runs out, or if Paul doesn't get the inflated price I bet he'll demand, all of the consignment stuff will come back too.   

Edited November 3, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[RobustRutabaga]

7 hours ago, lu1535 said:

This was in my hometown!! No one told me the Zaz was here in town and I didn't receive an invitation to the art show either. Darn.

Man, so close to getting to party with The Zaz! 😄    You could see some of those seemingly ever-heightening heels in person and how she negotiates walking in them.

Edited November 3, 2021 by RobustRutabaga

[essexjan]

We definitely didn't get the full story here. At the start, the sister was saying that Paul had hoarded all his life, and also that he had very few friends because of all the drama he caused. He'd began hoarding Skip's house while Skip was still alive, but maybe it wasn't as out of control due to Skip putting his foot down. But once Skip was gone, there was no restraint on Paul, who just kept on collecting.

Yet Dr Zasio and Dorothy focussed solely on Skip's death as being the start of Paul's hoarding as a way of dealing with his grief, rather than someone who just did what the hell he wanted when he wanted and got much worse once his partner was gone. I have no doubt he was devastated by Skip's death, but it wasn't what started him off as a hoarder.

99% of his possessions were junk, and there's no way that 'art' was worth anything. There are pieces like that in every thrift store in the land. I think now he's got enough space to live in, Paul will not get rid of a single other item and will gradually fill up the space again.

[Ligeia]

10 hours ago, essexjan said:

Yet Dr Zasio and Dorothy focussed solely on Skip's death as being the start of Paul's hoarding as a way of dealing with his grief, rather than someone who just did what the hell he wanted when he wanted and got much worse once his partner was gone. I have no doubt he was devastated by Skip's death, but it wasn't what started him off as a hoarder.

This. I'm tired of the lame excuses. They pretend to try to dig to the root of the issue when it is absolutely not the case and they know it. It's just an excuse to treat the hoarder as the victim again and give him another occasion to wallow in self-pity. Dorothy is especially cheesy about that and I can't stand it.

[AZChristian]

5 hours ago, Ligeia said:

Dorothy is especially cheesy about that and I can't stand it.

Dorothy is getting on my last nerve with her diagnoses and treatments of the hoarders.  

[RobustRutabaga]

1 hour ago, AZChristian said:

Dorothy is getting on my last nerve with her diagnoses and treatments of the hoarders.  

I know what you mean. I have to think she wants to do "pop culture diagnosis" being around actual licensed/trained therapists so frequently for the show, and probably wanting to add a little something "extra" vs. just cleanup techniques.

Just remember... 

😁

[CrazyInAlabama]

Another reason why hoards are around for years, it took 10 years to get moving on clearing this place up.  10 years of neighborhood complaints.  The 90 year old homeowner signed permission for the clean up, and everything is blamed on her son's hoarding.   I feel so sorry for the neighbors: 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/peopleandplaces/officials-finally-do-something-about-los-angeles-hoarder-house-after-10-years/vi-AAQhNts

However, the homeowner's son claims it's all his mother's stuff, and he says he only moved in 18 months ago:

https://www.foxla.com/news/koreatown-hoarding-home-la-city-crews-working-to-clean-up-piles-of-junk

So, the city will clean up the giant outdoor hoard, but what about the inside?   And what will prevent the homeowner's son from doing this again?  

Edited November 4, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[theajw]

23 hours ago, essexjan said:

We definitely didn't get the full story here. At the start, the sister was saying that Paul had hoarded all his life, and also that he had very few friends because of all the drama he caused. He'd began hoarding Skip's house while Skip was still alive, but maybe it wasn't as out of control due to Skip putting his foot down. But once Skip was gone, there was no restraint on Paul, who just kept on collecting.

I kept thinking about the moment the sister said that the cops were called when she tried to help him clean.  

I wonder if the cat ever saw the possum.  :O

[enoughcats]

Who found Skippy on the floor? 

It wasn't his roommate who said he only found out later that Skippy had collapsed and was taken to the hospital.  From what I heard Skippy was not the one who called for help.

Someone ELSE cared enough about Skippy to check on him, to come inside and search for the man who had collapsed.  Whose significant other was elsewhere for long enough that someone came in to check on Skippy's health. 

[Ligeia]

22 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Who found Skippy on the floor? 

It wasn't his roommate who said he only found out later that Skippy had collapsed and was taken to the hospital.  From what I heard Skippy was not the one who called for help.

Someone ELSE cared enough about Skippy to check on him, to come inside and search for the man who had collapsed.  Whose significant other was elsewhere for long enough that someone came in to check on Skippy's health. 

I think that's a little harsh, I mean Paul could have just been away for the day for any reason (like visiting relatives for instance) and a friend came by and found Skip. We shouldn't jump on conclusions so fast.

When I get away for the day to visit my father I don't check in with my BF every hour, he's not a baby.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Ligeia

[patty1h]

Ten minutes into the story of Carl, the lifelong hoarder, I knew I would not be able to stick around for this episode.  Not after finding out that he bathes with collected rainwater and soap that he has scavenged, then hear that he put some garbage cans in storage so they couldn't be removed by code enforcement. When he said that his whole family were hoarders and watched him sort through that garbage pile that he calls his "collection", I knew this would make my blood pressure shoot sky high because this guy seemed like a lost cause.  That level of mental illness/fixated ideas ain't going away by spending a few days with Dr Tolin's sympathy voice.

I will check back later to see if I was right or wrong.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Tonight's new episode is "Carl", learned to hoard from his mother, and other relatives.  He lives in Tampa, FL, and owes over $1 million to the city in fines.  He's 77 years old, and can't fit into his house, and sleeps in his truck.   The house is packed with stuff from his relatives, and he calls everything a collection, and historic. 

I feel sorry for the neighbor who's on the show.  Carl's mother, brother, and other relatives were hoarders too.   By the time Carl was in his forties, his mother, brother and dad had all died. 

Carl has an attorney, Codes Enforcement is enforcing the ordnances.   There are fines for codes violations going back over 20 years.   He's done jail time, 2015 felony littering, and the city cleaned up the property outside.  Last clean up with his friend was to fill a bunch of garbage cans, that Carl put in storage units.  His fridge is Avocado Green, so really old.  The house has no plumbing, and I'm guessing no electricity.    

I'm sorry to say that I think Carl is too far gone to help, and showing him on TV isn't helping. I see zero chance Dr. Tolin, or anyone else will ever change anything about Carl.  Even Cory won't be able to get through to this man.  Cory dragging the neighbor, Michelle,  through the house is mean.  Carl is a lost cause.   Carl thinks everything is history, and has to be kept. 

My opinion, codes enforcement, and the fire inspectors should condemn the house, and bulldoze it.    I can only imagine what lives in the house.   (He's wearing the sunglasses because he just had cataract surgery).  

Halfway through this show, and no progress.    The new organizer is about to run screaming away from this.   No matter what gets removed, Carl still has an unknown number of storage units full of garbage cans, and other stuff too.  

Carl is totally unbalanced, the crew needs to leave now.   I'm really worried about Carl either doing something horrible during filming or if Codes Enforcement comes to look around.    My view is this episode should never have been filmed.  Carl is not going to change anything.      I feel so sorry for the nice neighbor, Michelle. 

The floor is cleared in the living room, and other parts of the house, but then the hundreds of boxes are coming back in.  So Dr. Tolin calls Adult Protective Services, I see little chance of help for him from any source. Cory says Codes Enforcement will never pass the yard.   The inside has clean floors in a few rooms, but the walls are lined four and five packing boxes high.  

BSOJ-Carl had the second cataract surgery, and is in assisted living for a while to recover,   He'll start after care soon.  He locked the door to his parents' room, and isn't sure when he'll open it again. 

(My guess is that Carl will start hoarding more as soon as he's able.    Sadly, you can't force someone to get mental health treatment if they don't want it, and Carl doesn't want help.  ).   

Edited November 9, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[Maria777]

Carl is mentally ill.  Period.

Hoarders has sunk to a new low.  This isn't hoarding; this is mental illness. 

Exploiting these people for better ratings is deplorable.  

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

 (He's wearing the sunglasses because he just had cataract surgery). 

"Just had" may be an exaggeration.  Getting as upset as he did would have made a mess if the surgery hadn't totally healed.  

If anything, the two hours were an argument to check out the neighbors thoroughly before you buy.  

Thankfully they didn't show the hazmat cleanup of that bathroom. Nor did they follow up on the mention of termites in the middle of the house. Nor on his kissing his fingers and then kissing a book and a wall. 

Sad example of a life barely experienced.

[Cherpumple]

3 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

He locked the door to his parents' room, and isn't sure when he'll open it again.

I found that line in the BSOJ to be rather chilling. Carl has spent decades burying himself in family memories and "history," unable to even part with moldy stuffed animals that reminded him of his brother but had no actual connection to him, and now he locks himself out of his parents' room? That seems like even more of a mental break than what we've already seen from him. This was an upsetting episode to watch (more than usual) and I hope he gets the care he needs.

[Gravity Check]

Carl needed help, and not just from Hoarders. That rant that ended with Fidel Castro being invoked indicated a serious break from reality. I'm glad Dr. Tolin decided to call Adult Protective Services, and I hope Carl's getting mandated help, not just someone to hold his hand.

My crush on Dr. Tolin lives on. He's so kind and brutally honest at the same time.

The neighbor going through the house squeaking and squealing was definitely something that rang true. I loved it at the end where she said she loved Carl, but she "needed a break" from him. Sing it, sister!

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, Gravity Check said:

My crush on Dr. Tolin lives on.

Mine too.

 I knew the little neighbor lady was a wonder as soon as she said she had been friends with Carl for years.  Most people would probably cross the street when they saw Carl coming, or at least when they got close enough to smell him, and she was willing to stand and talk to him and hear his repetitive stories about going to jail and saving history.  Then for a particularly clean person to work in that for days?  What a nice person.

Carl's collection of cookie boxes to show the coroner was a new one.  Maybe not completely without merit.  I grabbed a one dollar pack of oatmeal cookies at the Family Dollar store last month and my son and I quickly became addicted.  They were hard as rocks, but great for dunking, and tasted so very good.  I think they were made of fake flavorings, msg, preservatives and saw dust. 

So code enforcement bulldozed that whole yard five years ago and he had it that full already.  I want to revisit Carl in a year and see what he's done.

I also want Carl's storage unit of garbage to show up on, "Storage Wars."

[Ligeia]

Finally a good episode ! Too bad they didn't show the bathroom cleanup or the rats and insects and stuff. Because yes I do watch this show for shock value.

It's obvious as soon as you see him that Carl is insane and belongs in some sort of assisted living facility.

Once again we had the "mourning" excuse when every member of Carl's family always was a hoarder, including him.

You can't change someone who is 77, arguing with him was so pointless. Michelle was really naive to think she could get to him. If anyone learned anything from this experience that's probably her. She's like the best neighbour ever, who would put up with Carl the way she did, seriously ?

Daddy Tomlin is so sexy 🥰  So is Cory, seeing them togehter definitely didn't ruin the episode 😜

[AZChristian]

I made it two minutes into the episode and then quit watching.  That's all the longer it should have taken anyone connected with the show to call Adult Protective Services and stop filming.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Sadly, they never quit filming, and will do anything to get 2 hours of film that they can use. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama