All Episodes Talk

[Harry24]

16 hours ago, tessaray said:

I once found myself humming along to "she's such a groovy lady" but yeah, every time I hear the "flesh is burning" song it gets stuck in my head. 🙂

That stellar moment where first we see Daphne absentmindedly humming “flesh is burning, nuh, nuh, nuh, nuh, NUH, nuh,” is hilarious, but then when Martin strolls through absentmindedly humming “flesh is burning, nuh, nuh, nuh, nuh, NUH, nuh,” is one of my favorites of about a million hilarious ones from this series.  Thanks for reminding me of it.  I haven’t thought of it in years.  I don’t even mind having the song running through my head.

[msani19]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:31 PM, rubaco said:

There's a question trending on Twitter today, "what's the best fake song?" Meaning one that exists only in a movie or TV show. The one that immediately came to my mind? "Flesh is burning, nah nah nah nah nah nah." 

Now it's gonna be in your head all day...

 So great!

Thanks for getting "flesh is burning, nah nah nah nah nah nah" stuck in my head. 

I can't help singing "Hail corkmaster, The master of the cork, He knows which wine goes with fish or pork!" anytime I go to a wine tasting (which isn't often these days). If someone else starts to chuckle or sing along, then I know I've found a new friend 😀

[raven]

Underrated piece of physical comedy - I'm watching "Miracle on Third or Fourth Street" when rundown looking Frasier has his Christmas diner meal paid for by a group of strangers because he doesn't have his wallet.  They don't believe that he really can pay and he has to sneak out to his car.  We see Frasier outside, dropping down to the ground and the car door opens.  Of course he doesn't have his keys and has to go back into the diner and try to get his keys without the group knowing 😄  It's just really well done, and very touching when one guy give Frasier a coin to "call his old man" (Frasier had talked about they fight they had). 

Oh, the next one is "Frasier Grinch" when the only thing Frederick wants for Christmas is an electronic robot, which of course Frasier didn't get.  Frasier and Niles will have to go shopping at the mall on Christmas Eve, lol.  Martin to the rescue at the end!

How I could I forget Niles' great line "The Cranes of Maine have got your Living Brain" 😅

[Annber03]

16 minutes ago, raven said:

Underrated piece of physical comedy - I'm watching "Miracle on Third or Fourth Street" when rundown looking Frasier has his Christmas diner meal paid for by a group of strangers because he doesn't have his wallet.  They don't believe that he really can pay and he has to sneak out to his car.  We see Frasier outside, dropping down to the ground and the car door opens.  Of course he doesn't have his keys and has to go back into the diner and try to get his keys without the group knowing 😄  It's just really well done, and very touching when one guy give Frasier a coin to "call his old man" (Frasier had talked about they fight they had). 

I love the bit in that episode where Frasier gets a call from a guy who tells a story about how a brand new pair of shoes he'd brought flew off the roof of his car, and a homeless guy picked them up and put them on. The driver just shrugged it off and kept going. 

Then later, when Frasier's at the diner, he meets a homeless guy who tells him he's had a great day, 'cause this really nice pair of shoes fell off a guy's car and he got to keep them, and he shows them off to Frasier :D. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Annber03

[Gramto6]

On 11/29/2020 at 2:31 PM, msani19 said:

 So great!

Thanks for getting "flesh is burning, nah nah nah nah nah nah" stuck in my head. 

I can't help singing "Hail corkmaster, The master of the cork, He knows which wine goes with fish or pork!" anytime I go to a wine tasting (which isn't often these days). If someone else starts to chuckle or sing along, then I know I've found a new friend 😀

Cozi played the Corkmaster show tonight...Loved it!  I really like this show and it's reruns stand up to time. Classic comedy!

[Salzmank]

We were talking in the Monk thread about Frasier, and I realized that, even though Frasier is probably my favorite TV comedy, I’ve never posted in this thread! (By the way, as I mentioned there, fans of Frasier tend to be fans of Monk and vice versa—I’m still wondering exactly why, though my suspicion is because of the complex-but-seems-easy writing.)

Anyway, @peacheslatour and I were talking in that thread about Faye (Amy Brenneman), who’s by far my favorite Frasier girlfriend. I’m wondering if anyone else really likes Faye. I know the fandom tends to love Claire, and I certainly don’t mind her, but I’ve always thought Faye was the only person to call Frasier out on his snobbishness and genuinely humanize him more. And it certainly doesn’t hurt that I think she was really attractive. 

[Annber03]

I liked Faye, too, for the same reasons you note. I liked her dry sense of humor, I liked how she just rolled with the craziness when Frasier and his family were pretending to be Jewish for her mom, and she and Frasier did have some stuff in common in terms of interests and such. Plus, she clearly got on well with Daphne, which was nice :D.

1 hour ago, Salzmank said:

We were talking in the Monk thread about Frasier, and I realized that, even though Frasier is probably my favorite TV comedy, I’ve never posted in this thread! (By the way, as I mentioned there, fans of Frasier tend to be fans of Monk and vice versa—I’m still wondering exactly why, though my suspicion is because of the complex-but-seems-easy writing.)

Doesn't hurt that Tony Shalhoub was in an episode of "Frasier", and of course, was also on "Wings', which came from the same people who created "Frasier". I haven't seen "Monk", but given all the good things I've heard about it, I think your theory about the writing and such is probably spot on. It seems anytime I see Shalhoub pop up on TV somewhere, he's on shows that are known for their sharp, smart writing and which have incredibly talented casts and such. So yeah. I can definitely see the connection. I like Shalhoub, so I should check out "Monk" sometime. I know a couple channels show reruns during the day, so I may have to sit down and start watching them. 

In the meantime, glad to see another poster here in the "Frasier" discussion thread! Welcome-look forward to talking more about this show with you :). 

[ifionlyknew]

2 hours ago, Salzmank said:

Anyway, @peacheslatour and I were talking in that thread about Faye (Amy Brenneman), who’s by far my favorite Frasier girlfriend. I’m wondering if anyone else really likes Faye. I know the fandom tends to love Claire, and I certainly don’t mind her, but I’ve always thought Faye was the only person to call Frasier out on his snobbishness and genuinely humanize him more. And it certainly doesn’t hurt that I think she was really attractive. 

Faye was also my favorite. And a lot of that had to do with Amy Brenneman playing her.  I have liked her in every role she has ever played.

12 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

, I think your theory about the writing and such is probably spot on.

As I said in the Monk thread for me it is definitely the writing.  Both shows you could the episodes were clearly plotted out from start to finish.  With some shows it seems like the plot was made up as it went on.  And also both shows had little things you could easily  miss but catch on a second viewing.  And most importantly neither show dumbed itself down to appeal to more viewers.  There were lots of jokes on Frasier about wine and opera that I didn't get it.   But that was OK.  I knew something funny had been said.

[Annber03]

15 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

And most importantly neither show dumbed itself down to appeal to more viewers.  There were lots of jokes on Frasier about wine and opera that I didn't get it.   But that was OK.  I knew something funny had been said.

I feel like a lot of what I know about wine and opera I've learned by watching "Frasier" :p. 

But yeah, agreed, the jokes on this show were perfect in that they worked on two levels. If you knew what they were referencing, you could laugh at the joke on that level, and if you didn't, then it was another example of Frasier and Niles making these weird, obscure references and the others around them being like, "...???", which was just as funny :D. 

[Salzmank]

39 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I liked Faye, too, for the same reasons you note. I liked her dry sense of humor, I liked how she just rolled with the craziness when Frasier and his family were pretending to be Jewish for her mom, and she and Frasier did have some stuff in common in terms of interests and such. Plus, she clearly got on well with Daphne, which was nice :D.

Yes, her dry sense of humor was excellent. I feel like (alone among the show’s almost-always excellent characterizations) many of Frasier’s girlfriends are written too one-note, and with Faye I just think the characterization’s deeper. She almost fits too well—which may be one of the reasons she’s dropped so perfunctorily. It’s not Frasier unless Frasier’s having some problem with his love life!

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Doesn't hurt that Tony Shalhoub was in an episode of "Frasier", and of course, was also on "Wings', which came from the same people who created "Frasier". I haven't seen "Monk", but given all the good things I've heard about it, I think your theory about the writing and such is probably spot on. It seems anytime I see Shalhoub pop up on TV somewhere, he's on shows that are known for their sharp, smart writing and which have incredibly talented casts and such. So yeah. I can definitely see the connection. I like Shalhoub, so I should check out "Monk" sometime. I know a couple channels show reruns during the day, so I may have to sit down and start watching them. 

Excellent point, I hadn’t even thought of that, but of course you’re right. (Obviously, I haven’t seen enough Wings!) The Frasier ep with Shalhoub as the newsstand owner was a hoot—but it left me feeling so sorry for his character! 😄

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In the meantime, glad to see another poster here in the "Frasier" discussion thread! Welcome-look forward to talking more about this show with you :). 

Thank you so much for the warm welcome!

[Salzmank]

36 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

Faye was also my favorite. And a lot of that had to do with Amy Brenneman playing her.  I have liked her in every role she has ever played.

Excellent—we’re all Faye fans! Fabulous Faye! Forever Faye! 😉

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   38 MINUTES AGO,  ANNBER03 SAID: 

, I think your theory about the writing and such is probably spot on.

 

As I said in the Monk thread for me it is definitely the writing.  Both shows you could the episodes were clearly plotted out from start to finish.  With some shows it seems like the plot was made up as it went on.  And also both shows had little things you could easily  miss but catch on a second viewing.

 

Yes, spot-on about the clarity of the plot. That’s something else the writers’ theater-background probably taught… Also, re: what I was saying there about detective stories, I should note that Frasier’s “Retirement is Murder” (S2:E13) is a pure detective story, complete with an Ellery-Queen-esque dying clue, a false solution, and a least-likely suspect who’s the killer. The writers just had to be mystery fans.

Quote

And most importantly neither show dumbed itself down to appeal to more viewers.  There were lots of jokes on Frasier about wine and opera that I didn't get it.   But that was OK.  I knew something funny had been said.

And yes again! Frasier’s pretty much the only sitcom I can actually say I learn from! 😄

[Annber03]

15 minutes ago, Salzmank said:

Yes, her dry sense of humor was excellent. I feel like (alone among the show’s almost-always excellent characterizations) many of Frasier’s girlfriends are written too one-note, and with Faye I just think the characterization’s deeper. She almost fits too well—which may be one of the reasons she’s dropped so perfunctorily. It’s not Frasier unless Frasier’s having some problem with his love life!

Excellent point, I hadn’t even thought of that, but of course you’re right. (Obviously, I haven’t seen enough Wings!) The Frasier ep with Shalhoub as the newsstand owner was a hoot—but it left me feeling so sorry for his character! 😄

Thank you so much for the warm welcome!

You're welcome :D!

Good point about her characterization. The fact she was on a few episodes as opposed to so many of his "one episode and done" love interests certainly backs that up, too. It was easier to get invested in her as a result. 

But yes, she too fell victim to Frasier's incessant overanalyzing and such. And of course, the fact he struggled to remember her name and kept trying to bounce between her and Cassandra didn't help, either :p. Generally easier to stick with a guy who can remember your name. 

Would definitely recommend checking out more of "Wings", too. It tends to be overshadowed a bit, because of how popular "Frasier" and "Cheers" became and whatnot. But if one likes one or both of those shows, it's quite likely they'll enjoy "Wings", too. Similar style of humor, strong ensemble cast, all that good stuff :). 

And yeah, I feel bad for Shalhoub's character in that episode, too. Poor guy just wanted to do his work and not be bothered. That's all he wanted. I love Niles and Martin's reactions to all that craziness, with Niles narrating what's happening at the newsstand and Martin just slumped down in his seat, arm draped over his face, and letting out a resigned, "...mmhm...". 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Annber03

[Ailianna]

The late season episode with all Frasier's past love interests and his self analysis disguised as Lilith and his mom explains why Faye couldn't stay, in a way I think is true to the relationship and his character. She was awesome and great for him so I think some of his problems were self sabotage so it wouldn't be so bad when she eventually left him (his fear speaking there).  She was lovely and artistic and good for "artsy-fartsy" conversation--so naturally he would be afraid to lose her.

[Salzmank]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

The late season episode with all Frasier's past love interests and his self analysis disguised as Lilith and his mom explains why Faye couldn't stay, in a way I think is true to the relationship and his character. She was awesome and great for him so I think some of his problems were self sabotage so it wouldn't be so bad when she eventually left him (his fear speaking there).  She was lovely and artistic and good for "artsy-fartsy" conversation--so naturally he would be afraid to lose her.

“So I’m alone because I’m afraid of being alone?” 😉

All you’re saying is true, but it was also a way for the writers to keep the character more or less the same (romantically, at least) throughout eleven seasons. That’s what makes the Laura Linney arc so unsatisfying, I think; she’s not suitable for him, yet she’s the one he ends up seeking because the show is ending. (Of course, no guarantee that “she’s the one”—as you say, Frasier will probably never find “the one.” Except maybe Lilith. 😉)

If he’d ended up with Faye, who I think is the most compatible with him, he’d have to lose some of his over-the-top, snooty ways because she’d call him out on them (and is, I think, the only one of the girlfriends to do so—except, again, Lilith).

I guess the Faye/Cassandra name thing could be a result of that desire for self-sabotage. There’s really no other psychologically convincing reason he would mix up two such unlike people with such unlike names.

[ifionlyknew]

All this talk about Frasier's issues with women made me realize this is one of the few shows where viewers have an understanding why the characters are the way they are.

This cannot be said enough.  Frasier is one of the best written shows in the history of television.

[Harry24]

7 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

Frasier is one of the best written shows in the history of television.

And perhaps the most brilliantly acted, certainly of the comedies.

[Ailianna]

The irony of that is that even though I still watch often, it's also terribly misogynistic and filled with sexual imposition, if not harassment. Mostly directed at Roz whose sex life is the butt of jokes throughout but there are also a lot of instances of people being kissed unwillingly. Bulldog kissing her while she beats on his back and says no, Roz kissing Frasier to show off to her ex-boyfriend, then kissing Mike's so he went pay died to the Never Kissed Roz Club, Frazier kissing Roz to hide from Kenny that his wife had been over, that's just a few that come to mind. It's uncomfortable sometimes to notice or think about.

[readster]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

The irony of that is that even though I still watch often, it's also terribly misogynistic and filled with sexual imposition, if not harassment. Mostly directed at Roz whose sex life is the butt of jokes throughout but there are also a lot of instances of people being kissed unwillingly. Bulldog kissing her while she beats on his back and says no, Roz kissing Frasier to show off to her ex-boyfriend, then kissing Mike's so he went pay died to the Never Kissed Roz Club, Frazier kissing Roz to hide from Kenny that his wife had been over, that's just a few that come to mind. It's uncomfortable sometimes to notice or think about.

True, not to mention Roz with Daphenie's idiot brother and of course even post having Roz have a baby. She was still the butt of sex jokes (no pun intended). 

[ifionlyknew]

3 hours ago, Ailianna said:

The irony of that is that even though I still watch often, it's also terribly misogynistic and filled with sexual imposition, if not harassment. 

I find this to be true with so many series pre #metoo. And not only misogyny but also homophobia. Some things make me cringe today.  

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

I find this to be true with so many series pre #metoo. And not only misogyny but also homophobia. Some things make me cringe today.  

That's one big point in favor of "Frasier", it handled the concept of homosexuality much better than many other shows of its day. The jokes focused more on poking fun at the constant stereotypes surrounding gay people, and gay people weren't the butt of the joke. If anything, straight people were often the ones who generally wound up looking foolish, for making certain assumptions or expressing ignorant attitudes on the topic. Course, given some of the cast and writers were gay as well, that likely helped with the more positive portrayal in that regard. I also remember reading something once about how the creators considered setting the show in Colorado at one point, but then the state passed some sort of ordinance that discriminated against LGBT people, so that made them choose to set the show elsewhere instead.

As for the sexism, that is one of many things I appreciated about Roz. She didn't apologize for her carefree dating lifestyle, and she always pointed out and called out the double standards on that subject. She also always had a good comeback for Frasier and Niles whenever they made some snide joke about her sex life. It doesn't make the men's attitudes any less cringey, no, but I still like that there was somebody on the show who could push back against those mindsets to some degree. 

[readster]

4 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 

As for the sexism, that is one of many things I appreciated about Roz. She didn't apologize for her carefree dating lifestyle, and she always pointed out and called out the double standards on that subject. She also always had a good comeback for Frasier and Niles whenever they made some snide joke about her sex life. It doesn't make the men's attitudes any less cringey, no, but I still like that there was somebody on the show who could push back against those mindsets to some degree. 

Right and that's why people enjoyed Roz so much despite these stories. Though, still trying to figure why the creators were so bent on Marris being a caricature character like they did with Vira on Cheers. You know, it just makes you wonder when show creators make up so much with a character to the point even the main characters are like: "How is this person real?"

[Annber03]

The sheer fun of it, I suppose :D? If you can't see the character, I can see where it'd be great to be able to go wild with the descriptions.

Plus, depending on the show/character, some of the descriptions can be brushed off as mere exaggeration-the character isn't really that bizarre, but if the main characters don't like them much/find some element of them funny or whatever, they'll make them sound worse or weirder than they actually are. 

[raven]

26 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Plus, depending on the show/character, some of the descriptions can be brushed off as mere exaggeration-the character isn't really that bizarre, but if the main characters don't like them much/find some element of them funny or whatever, they'll make them sound worse or weirder than they actually are. 

This is how I viewed Marris (Meris?).  We're hearing about her from everyone else's perspective, so there's exaggeration; much like they would exaggerate Lilith's behavior and then she would be on the show and actually be a complex person and not the caricature that the Crane men would depict.   ITA as to how much fun the depictions of M were.  "Is that a coat rack" "ohhhh"  LOL

As for Roz, I didn't mind the joking about her sex life - it didn't offend her; she joked about it as well; she gave as good as she got and most importantly to me, she enjoyed her life and made no apologies for any of it. 

Up until Daphne and Niles get together, one thing I appreciate about the show is that for the most part our characters aren't mean.  They tease each other about the others' behavior and all of that but it's obvious it's done with love.  Of course they had bad moments with each other but those were real too.   I did recently watch an episode where Frasier briefly wondered if he were gay and Martin told him he wasn't, that he would have known by now - this is a line that would probably be changed today.  Still, it is an antiquated thought and not an insulting one.

The episode with Patrick Stewart I think is a good example of how well the show handled gay characters.

After Daphne and Niles get together, the show's tone changed for me so I won't get into that too much!  I also didn't like how Eddie was left out a lot, probably because the "new" Eddie was not as talented as the "old" Eddie but that's a different story.

[MisterGlass]

It's a good point about the dated kissing without permission.  A lot of the Bulldog material is off putting, intentionally since he's an antagonist, but it stands out.  The jokes at Frasier's girlfriend of the week can be bad.

Niles's obsession with Daphne should be thoroughly creepy, but outside of a couple bad moments in the first season it's surprisingly okay. 

Also, Frasier treats waitstaff horribly.

The Maris jokes were ridiculous and over the top, but I did like the pay off that when Niles showed up with the little whippet everyone knew instantly that he got it because it reminded him of Maris.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, MisterGlass said:

Niles's obsession with Daphne should be thoroughly creepy, but outside of a couple bad moments in the first season it's surprisingly okay. 

That's the one thing that changed for me watching as a kid to watching as an adult. I loved it as a kid. As an adult I am completely creeped out by Nile's obsession with Daphne. 

[readster]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's the one thing that changed for me watching as a kid to watching as an adult. I loved it as a kid. As an adult I am completely creeped out by Nile's obsession with Daphne. 

The problem also was the fact they were pretty much establishing early on that Marris had pretty much whipped Niles. She NEVER wanted to be part of the family in anything. I mean Roz and Daphnie were more involved in the family events than a person who was "suppose" to be part of the family. It didn't help that when the writers did start moving more towards Niles and Daphine, they backed up and then threw some dumb reason to keep Niles and Marris together. I still can't stand the episode where everyone from Fraiser to Martin are trying to get them back together. It completely rang false. My mother who also loved the show, said during the episode: "When writers don't know what to do with the characters, so they act dumb." Loved my mother pointing those things out.

[ifionlyknew]

13 hours ago, raven said:

As for Roz, I didn't mind the joking about her sex life - it didn't offend her; she joked about it as well; she gave as good as she got and most importantly to me, she enjoyed her life and made no apologies for any of it. 

I didn't mind the jokes about Roz's dating/sex life.  Sam on Cheers was a similar character with regards to dating/sex and it was joked about.  I didn't feel like she was being shamed because she didn't feel shamed.  She might have gotten mad with some of the jokes thrown her way but it didn't make her feel bad about living her life the way she chose to.

9 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Niles's obsession with Daphne should be thoroughly creepy, but outside of a couple bad moments in the first season it's surprisingly okay. 

In real life it would have been creepy but on this show we saw that Niles was not what you would call a stalker. He had a crush on Daphne.  We knew he wasn't going to hurt her.

13 hours ago, raven said:

  I did recently watch an episode where Frasier briefly wondered if he were gay and Martin told him he wasn't, that he would have known by now - this is a line that would probably be changed today.  Still, it is an antiquated thought and not an insulting one.

That is a good point.  I don't think the writers ever meant to insult any group with lines they wrote.  In real life sometimes people say things that aren't necessarily politically correct but aren't meant to hurt anyone either.  These were fictional characters who had flaws. Now if you want to talk about real life people who say things that aren't politically correct that is a different topic.

 

28 minutes ago, readster said:

I still can't stand the episode where everyone from Fraiser to Martin are trying to get them back together. It completely rang false

That was misstep on the writer's part. I think they were just trying to drag out Niles and Daphne getting together.  The storyline I absolutely hated was Mel blackmailing Niles to stay married to her.  Although I did like the payoff when Niles finally said enough.  

[readster]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

That was misstep on the writer's part. I think they were just trying to drag out Niles and Daphne getting together.  The storyline I absolutely hated was Mel blackmailing Niles to stay married to her.  Although I did like the payoff when Niles finally said enough.  

Not to mention, Mel was just as controlling as Marris, she had to have things her way and when she talked to Daphne about why she was "pushing" Niles on things. I wanted to go: "He is a grown man and he can decide what he wants to do." It seems like Niles had a thing for women to tell him what to do, of course as we learned both on Cheers and on Fraiser, their mother was a very "my way or the highway" type of personality. 

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

That is a good point.  I don't think the writers ever meant to insult any group with lines they wrote.  In real life sometimes people say things that aren't necessarily politically correct but aren't meant to hurt anyone either.  These were fictional characters who had flaws. Now if you want to talk about real life people who say things that aren't politically correct that is a different topic.

This. It made sense for Martin to think that way, because that's how his character was. Even then, though, the fact he still ultimately listened to Frasier about his dream and what it might be telling him was a true sign of growth and maturity for him-he may have had some outdated views about sexuality, but their talk at the end also made it very clear that if Frasier had acknowledged he was gay, Martin would've loved and accepted him. Considering how fraught their relationship was when the show first started, and considering that episode with the dream was in season four, that really shows just how much progress they'd made in their relationship in that short amount of time. 

And then there's that episode later on where Frasier meets a woman he likes, and her uncle's gay, and they try and set him and Martin up. The way Martin rolls with all of that shows how much his own views have progressed as well, especially with the gentle way he tried to let Edward down. 

5 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

In real life it would have been creepy but on this show we saw that Niles was not what you would call a stalker. He had a crush on Daphne.  We knew he wasn't going to hurt her.

It also helped that in the moments when he was overstepping his bounds, Frasier and Martin were there to tell him to chill and knock it off. And then there was that great episode after Niles and Daphne got together where Niles had to confront his tendency to put Daphne on a pedestal, and how he had to learn to see her for who she really was as a person, and not whatever idealized image of her he'd built up for so many years. I really appreciate how they addressed that issue, along with Daphne's insecurities about the class differences between them, and then, later, her worry that he might stray from her, because she was "someone else" when he was married to Maris and Mel. It's not often a show gets into and addresses some of the issues a couple would have to work through once they get together, so the fact this one was willing to go there is another reason why I like it so much. And it's another reason why I like Niles/Daphne-they worked for that happy ending, and whatever issues and obstacles they dealt with, they handled them together. None of this "get together/break up/get back together" back and forth. 

4 hours ago, readster said:

Not to mention, Mel was just as controlling as Marris, she had to have things her way and when she talked to Daphne about why she was "pushing" Niles on things. I wanted to go: "He is a grown man and he can decide what he wants to do." It seems like Niles had a thing for women to tell him what to do, of course as we learned both on Cheers and on Fraiser, their mother was a very "my way or the highway" type of personality. 

That was one of the great things about the show, seeing Niles come out of his shell and learn to stand up for himself and take control of his own life. He even had to deal with that issue with Frasier-Frasier may have meant well as the older brother trying to look out for Niles, but he also needed to learn to step back and let Niles handle some of his own problems his own way, too. And Niles did value Frasier's advice, but he also learned that he didn't always have to ask others, be it Frasier or anyone else, what he should do when he was struggling with something. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Annber03

[readster]

47 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

 

It also helped that in the moments when he was overstepping his bounds, Frasier and Martin were there to tell him to chill and knock it off. And then there was that great episode after Niles and Daphne got together where Niles had to confront his tendency to put Daphne on a pedestal, and how he had to learn to see her for who she really was as a person, and not whatever idealized image of her he'd built up for so many years. I really appreciate how they addressed that issue, along with Daphne's insecurities about the class differences between them, and then, later, her worry that he might stray from her, because she was "someone else" when he was married to Maris and Mel. It's not often a show gets into and addresses some of the issues a couple would have to work through once they get together, so the fact this one was willing to go there is another reason why I like it so much. And it's another reason why I like Niles/Daphne-they worked for that happy ending, and whatever issues and obstacles they dealt with, they handled them together. None of this "get together/break up/get back together" back and forth. 

That was one of the great things about the show, seeing Niles come out of his shell and learn to stand up for himself and take control of his own life. He even had to deal with that issue with Frasier-Frasier may have meant well as the older brother trying to look out for Niles, but he also needed to learn to step back and let Niles handle some of his own problems his own way, too. And Niles did value Frasier's advice, but he also learned that he didn't always have to ask others, be it Frasier or anyone else, what he should do when he was struggling with something. 

I agree, because Niles and Daph felt like a real couple. Both the writers and actors were ready to go there and it felt actaully, organic and not the: "Well, this is wish fulfillment." or "Well, we are out of options."

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, readster said:

I agree, because Niles and Daph felt like a real couple. Both the writers and actors were ready to go there and it felt actaully, organic and not the: "Well, this is wish fulfillment." or "Well, we are out of options."

Yes! While I'm sure they got some fan letters back in the day wondering when they were going to get together and so on, you never felt like they were caving to fan pressure or anything like that, the way you do with some shows that put a couple together*. Seven years was a long enough time for that buildup, it was only natural it'd resolve itself one way or another eventually. 

And even then, their getting together wasn't a surprise, no (most "will they/won't they"s aren't all that suspenseful, because it so often ends in "they will"), but that didn't matter, because you enjoyed (and can enjoy, in reruns) the journey that got them there.

*I do wonder now how this show would've gone had social media been a thing back then. Would fan demand have led them to get Niles and Daphne together sooner? Would they have listened to people's input about any of Frasier's many romances? How much of what the show did would've been their decision, and not that of viewers? Something to mull over. 

[jird]

Upon rewatching, I feel much more sympathy for Mel. I mean, I still think she's not a nice person and she's a fun black hole, but Niles knew that and married her anyway. His desire to end the marriage had nothing to do with anything she did, and everything to do with feelings he had the entire time.

After he dumped her several days into their marriage, it wasn't unreasonable that she'd be really hurt and pissed off and lash out at Niles in ways designed to humiliate him the way she felt humiliated. Not saying anything she did was right, but Niles' family seemed to think that it was outrageous that she didn't just give him a quick, quiet divorce so that he and Daphne could live happily ever after.

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, jird said:

Upon rewatching, I feel much more sympathy for Mel. I mean, I still think she's not a nice person and she's a fun black hole, but Niles knew that and married her anyway. His desire to end the marriage had nothing to do with anything she did, and everything to do with feelings he had the entire time.

I like the moment when they're having their "wedding reception", and Mel is telling Niles about all the places they're planning to go on their honeymoon, in case anyone asks. When Niles tells her how lovely that trip sounds, she responds with a quiet, "It's not my fault we're not going." I liked how you could really see and hear her genuine hurt and pain in that moment. 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I do wonder now how this show would've gone had social media been a thing back then. Would fan demand have led them to get Niles and Daphne together sooner? Would they have listened to people's input about any of Frasier's many romances? How much of what the show did would've been their decision, and not that of viewers? Something to mull over. 

Fans did have ways of making their thoughts known.  I don't know that the pressure would have made them go faster but I do think they might have had to rethink how they chose to focus on Niles and Daphne.  Or showed him catching himself a bit more from the instinct I think a lot of us have had to be around our crushes as much as possible.

But before social media, there were discussion boards, email...etc.  There was definitely fan engagement.  The only thing social media did was change the way fans engaged.

I think this was about the time that show runners were finally starting to back away from the Moonlighting curse which said that a couple couldn't get together for good until the very end of a series. That had led to a lot of bad decisions on TV shows.

[ljenkins782]

19 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

It's a good point about the dated kissing without permission.  A lot of the Bulldog material is off putting, intentionally since he's an antagonist, but it stands out.  The jokes at Frasier's girlfriend of the week can be bad.

Niles's obsession with Daphne should be thoroughly creepy, but outside of a couple bad moments in the first season it's surprisingly okay. 

Also, Frasier treats waitstaff horribly.

The Maris jokes were ridiculous and over the top, but I did like the pay off that when Niles showed up with the little whippet everyone knew instantly that he got it because it reminded him of Maris.

Yes, that always bugged me too. The finger snapping and "off you go" dismissals were so rude. But probably realistic, too. 

Quote

 

Upon rewatching, I feel much more sympathy for Mel. I mean, I still think she's not a nice person and she's a fun black hole, but Niles knew that and married her anyway. His desire to end the marriage had nothing to do with anything she did, and everything to do with feelings he had the entire time.

After he dumped her several days into their marriage, it wasn't unreasonable that she'd be really hurt and pissed off and lash out at Niles in ways designed to humiliate him the way she felt humiliated. Not saying anything she did was right, but Niles' family seemed to think that it was outrageous that she didn't just give him a quick, quiet divorce so that he and Daphne could live happily ever after.

 

In her first few appearances, I wouldn't even say that she wasn't a nice person (in her own way). She was definitely hard to take and not someone you'd want to hang out with socially, but not necessarily a bad person.

And I actually sort of liked the way she tried to build Niles up, like the scene in Whine Club where she talks him into running for corkmaster. Frasier said it was like Maris all over again, but I disagree. Mel was a domineering person, yes, but she also went out of her way to show Niles that in her eyes, he was more than what he'd allowed himself to be. I can see why Frasier would be threatened by that, because he himself was a dominant personality in that sibling relationship and Niles gaining confidence would mean Frasier had less control, but I thought Mel was coming from a good place. 

As for ditching her days after marrying her, there is no way around the dick move that was. And much as they tried to portray it as him chasing his one true love, if I were Daphne, it would make me nervous. Then again, she left her fiancé at the altar at the same time, so I guess they're both guilty of being terrible to people they supposedly loved. 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Mel was a domineering person, yes, but she also went out of her way to show Niles that in her eyes, he was more than what he'd allowed himself to be. I can see why Frasier would be threatened by that, because he himself was a dominant personality in that sibling relationship and Niles gaining confidence would mean Frasier had less control

Ooh, I like this analysis. That makes a lot of sense, yeah.

Quote

As for ditching her days after marrying her, there is no way around the dick move that was. And much as they tried to portray it as him chasing his one true love, if I were Daphne, it would make me nervous. Then again, she left her fiancé at the altar at the same time, so I guess they're both guilty of being terrible to people they supposedly loved. 

Leaving someone at the altar is pretty crappy and humiliating, true, but if you're going to end a relationship to be with someone else, certainly ultimately better to do it before you marry that person than after. Had Niles not been married to Mel when he decided to run off with Daphne, things might not have been nearly as messy. 

(On that note, I've always found that element about Donny being left at the alter rather interesting because of Frasier's role in that happening. On the one hand, Frasier sympathizes with him, because he knows full well what that's like and the pain Donny's going through. And yet, on the other hand, he was out there openly encouraging Niles and Daphne to talk out how they felt about each other, and it was pretty clear that he ultimately supported them getting together knowing how they felt about each other. It's just interesting to me that a guy who knows firsthand how hurtful being abandoned like that can be would then turn around and aid in that happening to someone else.)

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Fans did have ways of making their thoughts known.  I don't know that the pressure would have made them go faster but I do think they might have had to rethink how they chose to focus on Niles and Daphne.  Or showed him catching himself a bit more from the instinct I think a lot of us have had to be around our crushes as much as possible.

But before social media, there were discussion boards, email...etc.  There was definitely fan engagement.  The only thing social media did was change the way fans engaged.

Oh, yeah, I didn't mean to imply there wasn't any fan engagement back then. And some writers/showrunners were definitely attuned to it as well (Chris Carter and "X-Files", anyone?). Just that it seems to have a lot more influence on a grander scale nowadays, but of course, that's because, like you said, the engagement is much more different now, much more direct. 

I do agree with your theories of how some elements might've changed as a result. I also think we might've seen a lot more open acknowledgement from Daphne about Niles' feelings towards her, 'cause I know some people have commented on how oblivious she seemed for so long (though some have also argued that there's moments that indicate she may been a little more aware than initially assumed). 

Quote

I think this was about the time that show runners were finally starting to back away from the Moonlighting curse which said that a couple couldn't get together for good until the very end of a series. That had led to a lot of bad decisions on TV shows.

Definitely. A lot more shows nowadays don't seem nearly as spooked about getting couples together a little sooner. It is possible to put a couple together on a show and keep the series running along just fine. It's all in how they're written and how the show handles the shift more than anything. 

[Athena]

16 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I like the moment when they're having their "wedding reception", and Mel is telling Niles about all the places they're planning to go on their honeymoon, in case anyone asks. When Niles tells her how lovely that trip sounds, she responds with a quiet, "It's not my fault we're not going." I liked how you could really see and hear her genuine hurt and pain in that moment. 

 

14 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

And I actually sort of liked the way she tried to build Niles up, like the scene in Whine Club where she talks him into running for corkmaster. Frasier said it was like Maris all over again, but I disagree. Mel was a domineering person, yes, but she also went out of her way to show Niles that in her eyes, he was more than what he'd allowed himself to be. I can see why Frasier would be threatened by that, because he himself was a dominant personality in that sibling relationship and Niles gaining confidence would mean Frasier had less control, but I thought Mel was coming from a good place.

While I don't think Mel was the best person, the writing was clear that she genuinely loved Niles. For the most part, she really did try to build him up for him. It does sound like she was a step up from Maris who basically kept Niles under her thumb. Mel was socializing with the Cranes at least and even Daphne started appreciating her when Mel expressed how much she loved Niles. Jane Adams did a good job of giving Mel some depth as well because it would have been very easy to play it straight that Mel was in the way of the Niles/Daphne, but she tried to humanize her. I don't excuse the manipulation and blackmail after because Mel did take it too far. At least, it resulted in one of the best Niles where he stands up to her.

[readster]

13 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 

Definitely. A lot more shows nowadays don't seem nearly as spooked about getting couples together a little sooner. It is possible to put a couple together on a show and keep the series running along just fine. It's all in how they're written and how the show handles the shift more than anything. 

You also have to see shows that bring that up in the past 10 years tend to be writers/producers who don't know how to write the characters they ultimately put together or move towards that position. Plus, you get an almost "anti-couple" attitude then from other show runners/writers who come on later. Best examples are: Grey's, Castle, ER, How I Met Your Mother, The Middle and Friends. Where all of a sudden "it's the worst thing ever! WE have to stop it, because you know, reasons!"

[jird]

I love all of the Frasier Christmas episodes. High Holidays is probably the only one I don't really love, but that's because it's not particularly Christmas-y, although it is very funny.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I feel like we all used to talk about a very weird inconsistency on the show, being that whenever Maris would call Niles for help while he was married to Daphne, Daphne would always say "That woman's made our lives miserable!  Don't help her anymore!"

That characterization made ZERO sense.  Maris never did a thing to Daphne.  In fact, it seems like the writers were mixing Maris up with Mel.  Mel was the one who required Niles to be seen in public with her long after Niles ended the relationship to be with Daphne (and I'm not going to take sides on that, or judge that, I know there's lots of Mel fans here.). Isn't that so weird that the writers would make that egregious mistake, time and time again?

On 12/13/2020 at 10:38 AM, Ailianna said:

The irony of that is that even though I still watch often, it's also terribly misogynistic and filled with sexual imposition, if not harassment. Mostly directed at Roz whose sex life is the butt of jokes throughout but there are also a lot of instances of people being kissed unwillingly. Bulldog kissing her while she beats on his back and says no, Roz kissing Frasier to show off to her ex-boyfriend, then kissing Mike's so he went pay died to the Never Kissed Roz Club, Frazier kissing Roz to hide from Kenny that his wife had been over, that's just a few that come to mind. It's uncomfortable sometimes to notice or think about.

There's a horribly racist episode where Bulldog does a fake Chinese accent to advertise a Chinese restaurant on the air and to make matters worse the AUDIENCE SCREAMS AND APPLAUDS HIM.

The episode where Frasier grabs the Santa stripper (?) and pulls her onto his lap and makes out with her is one of the creepiest things I've ever seen.  The audience cheers for that too, of course.

There's mansplaining too obviously.  When Daphne is upset that the press called her a maid instead of a healthcare worker, Niles says something like "Now, now, the press is notorious for getting things wrong."  Um, so what?  Asshole.

I guess at least when Niles referred to Roz as a "bitch" they had the good sense to have John Mahoney to look disappointed in him.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ailianna]

Although Roz did call Bulldog out for that accent. 

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, Ailianna said:

Although Roz did call Bulldog out for that accent. 

"We're gonna get sued this time, for sure."

I don't remember the audience screaming at that impression, though-the "Frasier" audiences generally weren't the sort to scream the way other live audiences did. 

Roz also called Bulldog out when they were rehearsing the Nightmare Inn play and Bulldog did another mocking accent there, too.

As for the stuff with Daphne and Maris, if I recall, that only happened once, and it was in the context of that that stretch of episodes where Maris was on trial for killing her boyfriend. She kept calling Niles for support and constantly wanted him to come help defend her and everything, and it was causing a lot of chaos and stress for Niles, and by extension, everyone else. And Daphne was upset by all of that, and got fed up with how manipulative she was being towards Niles. It ultimately led to Niles telling Maris off on the phone and suggesting she start taking responsibility for her own actions. So yeah, in that particular instance, Maris was having a negative impact on their lives. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I don't remember the audience screaming at that impression, though-the "Frasier" audiences generally weren't the sort to scream the way other live audiences did. 

I don't make stuff like that up.  The racism is so harsh for sure it stays with me.

 

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

Although Roz did call Bulldog out for that accent. 

I don't really see that as an excuse.  The show was endorsing Bulldog's behaviour and so was the audience.  My evidence is that today, a show wouldn't even do that.  The show was wrong for it period.  Just because it's about Asian people doesn't make it less serious than other racism.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

As for the stuff with Daphne and Maris, if I recall, that only happened once, and it was in the context of that that stretch of episodes where Maris was on trial for killing her boyfriend. She kept calling Niles for support and constantly wanted him to come help defend her and everything, and it was causing a lot of chaos and stress for Niles, and by extension, everyone else. And Daphne was upset by all of that, and got fed up with how manipulative she was being towards Niles. It ultimately led to Niles telling Maris off on the phone and suggesting she start taking responsibility for her own actions. So yeah, in that particular instance, Maris was having a negative impact on their lives. 

Again, 

Quote

Daphne: Well, I can't laugh. That horrible woman has managed to slither her way back into our lives.

What does Daphne mean by this?  How was Maris horrible to Daphne?  How was she slithering BACK into Daphne's life?  I see no evidence for this at all.

http://www.kacl780.net/frasier/transcripts/season_11/episode_8/murder_most_maris_2.html

Edited December 22, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Athena]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:55 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Again, 

What does Daphne mean by this?  How was Maris horrible to Daphne?  How was she slithering BACK into Daphne's life?  I see no evidence for this at all.

http://www.kacl780.net/frasier/transcripts/season_11/episode_8/murder_most_maris_2.html

The writers have always used Maris as a weird and strange villain. She's not even a real character more as a plot device to ruin Niles's life. Daphne disliking her would be consistent with that. Frasier and Martin did not like Maris (Niles and Martin didn't like Lilith either though). Even before Mel and the murder trial, Maris was horrible to Niles during their separation including trying to win him back and making things worse. Niles was probably the lowest in the show during that time and everyone knew it. Maris was consistently described as cold and strange to everyone who meets her and she consistently avoided Crane events so it's not like there was love lost.

It's often understandable to dislike your partner's ex-wife because they made your spouse unhappy. Imagine if Niles and Maris had kids; it would have made things 100x worse. It must have bothered Daphne a lot since she loved Niles and she did have insecurity about their relationship. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I still think the writers definitely mixed up Mel and Maris when they wrote those lines.

Daphne became a totally different person somehow in the later seasons.  I doubt I could find a shred of evidence she ever said anything negative about Maris before she got with Niles.

It was a tradition that whenever LILITH was in town, Martin would run screaming and horrified and Daphne would get a horrible migraine that would only lift when Lilith would fly out of Seattle.

But Maris?  Neither Martin or Daphne were ever that negative towards her.  Of course, Frasier would get protective of Niles through the divorce, but other than that, it was just light mocking.

Martin even had a good line about preferring Maris to Lilith.

Quote

Frasier: Dad, you never liked Lilith.
Martin: She's weird.
Frasier: She is not weird.
Martin: Oh, she's weird.
Frasier: Well, maybe she's a little strange.
Martin: No, [points to Niles] Maris is a little strange. Lilith is weird.
Niles: Gee whiz, Dad, I had no idea you preferred my wife to Frasier's.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Ms Blue Jay

[Annber03]

I think when Daphne talked about Maris "slithering" back, she meant  into Niles' life, but since his life now included Daphne, she said "our" as a result. Daphne was frustrated with all the craziness going on, so I just chalk it up to an awkwardly worded rant unleashed in a moment of anger. 

[TruffleHog]

Is the Frasier reboot still happening?  If Kelsey and Alec Baldwin are doing a new TV show together, I'm worried that the reboot was either cancelled or shelved.

[Annber03]

Haven't really heard anything about it lately, no, but depending on how filming goes for that new show he's got planned with Baldwin (and that's presuming it even is successful), he could still manage to do that show and the reboot if they are still planning it. 

Plus, with the pandemic, I think a lot of potential show ideas that are being talked about are still just in "wait and see" mode right now anyway. We may have more official information if/when things finally start getting under control, and when it's easier to get people on board and travel to film and whatnot again. 

[msani19]

I've gone back and forth about a reboot for the show. It is one of my all-time favorite shows, and has *mostly* held up with time, although some of those problematic themes are so cringe-worthy now. Other shows I've loved that have done reboots have not worked for one reason or another, so I can see why there might be the "well maybe *we* can get it right" idea.  However, if there's a writing staff I'd believe in it would be Frasiers' (assuming they could get the band back together).  Besides missing the presence of John Mahoney, wo I know they would honor with great reverence, it would be so sad to me.  Anyway, I'll be curious to see what develops.