Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[catrox14]

Thank God I was not the only one who thought that. Initially I thought it was my paranoia that somehow TPTB are taking me back to that toxicity but mercifully Stephen Amell was so not reciprocating to those Laurel Lance heart eyes that I gathered that it was not TPTB but Katie Cassidy who just cannot get her head around the fact that LL and OQ are DONE!.

Someone needs to sit down with her and give her a new back story, preferably typed so that she can modulate her acting accordingly.

Unless it comes back to Laurel is cray cray which I honestly hope is in play. I hope the googly eyes are because Laurel thinks she's going to win Oliver back by working with him. Little does she know that Oliver is all in for Felicity.

[KenyaJ]

 I didn't realize it on the first watch, but she was giving Oliver some heart eyes at the press conference. I keep looking at Oliver's reaction to the look and there was nothing from SA. Nada. If she plays every scene with Oliver like that, its going to be even more awkward.

 

It reminds me of the scene in the foundry, when she launched herself to hug Oliver and he might as well have been a statue for all the reaction he had to her. It's just painful to watch them sometimes. They couldn't spark even if they were standing next to a welding robot.

[statsgirl]

Laurel going cray-cray would totally make the character for me.

 

 

What I find perplexing is why the writers are not writing to KC's strengths which IMO are snarky etc. They keep trying to make Laurel this sincere good-doer but KC is not selling that at all IMO. Would seem better to drop Laurel being a superhero good-doer and make her a villain.  I hope maybe that's what will happen.

This is the big question about the EPs for me. Do they really believe that KC is selling this?  Are they fixated on their idea of Black Canary and they're going to get there whatever it takes? Does she have some sort of contractual hold over them?  (Since AK thought the problem people were having with Laurel was that she wasn't getting into the fishnets fast enough, I'm guessing it's the first.)

 

I really wish I could have seen Yvonne Strahovski do the part.  At the very least, it would answer the question of whether good acting can overcome bad writing.

 

 

I'm getting flashbacks to House with how KC is playing Laurel.  On House, Lisa Edelstein fought like crazy to make Cuddy House's only love interest.  She made lovesick eyes at him even though she was his boss and tanked any scenes with other love interest. She convinced the producers to put them together and it was the two worst years of the show.  Maybe KC really believes that Laurel belongs with Oliver as his true love, and this is her way of making it happen.

[strikera0]

I really wish I could have seen Yvonne Strahovski do the part.  At the very least, it would answer the question of whether good acting can overcome bad writing.

 

I see a lot of love for Yvonne Strakhovski on the internet. I assume this is because of her role in Chuck, which I have never watched. I have seen her in Dexter though and I can safely say that she doesn't turn crap into gold either. She was awful in Dexter (couldn't even hide her Australian accent properly) and many fans view her character as the beginning of the end of that series.

Edited October 10, 2014 by strikera0

[KirkB]

I never watched Dexter or Chuck but I know her as the face and voice of Miranda Lawson from Mass Effect 2 and 3, and based on the way the character was in those games she might have been perfect for Laurel.

[catrox14]

Laurel going cray-cray would totally make the character for me.

 

 

This is the big question about the EPs for me. Do they really believe that KC is selling this?  Are they fixated on their idea of Black Canary and they're going to get there whatever it takes? Does she have some sort of contractual hold over them?  (Since AK thought the problem people were having with Laurel was that she wasn't getting into the fishnets fast enough, I'm guessing it's the first.)

 

I really wish I could have seen Yvonne Strahovski do the part.  At the very least, it would answer the question of whether good acting can overcome bad writing.

 

 

I'm getting flashbacks to House with how KC is playing Laurel.  On House, Lisa Edelstein fought like crazy to make Cuddy House's only love interest.  She made lovesick eyes at him even though she was his boss and tanked any scenes with other love interest. She convinced the producers to put them together and it was the two worst years of the show.  Maybe KC really believes that Laurel belongs with Oliver as his true love, and this is her way of making it happen.

That would explain a lot. KC surely realizes that she has,/had no relevance as long as Sarah lived.

[ostentatious]

For someone who has no interest in the Laurel presented on the show, I sure do have a lot of interest in what it would take to solve the problem of her.

I really don't think KC's body type or ability to fight vs CL's has ever been the problem. That's why we have stunt people. It makes it more frustrating now that we have seen CL, but that can be overcome. The believability is about the character, not the actress, for me.

The thing with Laurel is that there is no room to handwave anything. Everybody has their wheelhouse. Dig, military ops and weapons. Felicity, tech crap. Oliver and Sara, assassin crap. Is Felicity's tech crap realistic? No. Is Oliver's skill at running around rooftops? Of course not. But those characters came to the show with those abilities established.

Laurel's wheelhouse is lawyer crap. Just like I wouldn't expect to see Sara stand up and successfully argue a court case or provide helpful legal advice without a really valid explanation, I need the same for Laurel wrt fighting. And daddy making her take self defense ain't it. In my opinion, where they sunk the character wasn't in conceptualizing her as an angelic light source (which someone could've made work, just not KC) or even in casting KC (no, she could never be a LI for Oliver, nor angelic, but there are BCs she could've been) but in the inactive, boring, isolating choice to make her a lawyer. God, why didn't she have to drop her dream of law school - like got into Harvard and couldn't go - because the family was destroyed personally and financially and she couldn't leave her dad there all alone boozing up all the time. Instead, she joined the force. That is active, puts her on scene, she gets all those Quentin/Hood scenes...Marc Guggenheim is personally responsible for that terrible choice.

Age is also a problem. It would be a lot more believable for Sara to have boned up on the law in her spare time than for a 30-yo woman to make herself over into a world class fighter in hers. Oliver and Sara, Thea and Roy, youth was/is on their side. Once you're 30, you don't get the youth bonus. Sure, you can start training for say triathlons even in your 40s, but the character would have to either go away like Thea has, get superpowers like Roy got (I can accept that his muscle memory was retained), or go through an actual believable training program, and that would take an excruciatingly long time.

If willing, they can disappear Laurel long enough for her to leave town and come back with power ups. Thea, Sara, and Oliver are getting the psychological breakdown and then remolding into a weapon by sinister entities treatment. This is a standard trope used to explain these sorts of skills. I don't really WANT Laurel abducted by some nefarious organization and rebuilt. That means her BC skills will come from a negative place, which was the only issue I had with Sara as BC.

I am a fan of her going through a Manhunter phase, even if they don't call her that, to mirror Oliver's Hood phase. Her own "find another way" arc. Lady Shiva could come in, but a better choice here would be Nyssa. I could see Nyssa being like yo, we should unite for the common goal of avenging Sara. Part of this partnership will include me putting you through LoA boot camp. Two women united in their love for the same woman, putting all that energy into training.

If they were going that route they should've done it at the end of a season, though. Five months of LoA training on site in Nanda Parbat would be way more meaningful than what Thea is getting from Merlyn. It would also be a really nice differentiator for Laurel, to get similar training as Sara and Oliver, except Laurel chooses to put herself through that. Sara and Oliver HAD to sink or swim. I do believe that Laurel brings a degree of determination and dedication to the table that those two did not.

If I was writing the show and had to come up with Laurel's transition, this is what I would do: she would spend this season putting all her Type A perfectionistic aggression and her rage into Hood type stuff. Uncontrolled anger. At the end of the season after she figures out the LoA was not responsible for Sara's death, Nyssa/Ra's have watched her, and make her an offer: LoA Summer Camp. Hell, Ra's himself might train her. There's your hiatus power-up. Five months of his *personal and intense focus*? Yeah, okay, that's close enough to five years of other training. Lady Shiva can come in later to help her even more. I would also have an organization rather than an individual responsible for Sara's death, because the whodunnit can't span seasons, and Laurel would need a larger mission to motivate her.

Edited October 11, 2014 by thecatbastet

[BkWurm1]

One minute into The Calm and I realized Laurel rehab wasn't working for me. Grated on ever one of my nerves in every scene and I honestly thought I was going into it with an open mind. Yeah, that's all over now.

My issues with the direction of Laurels upcoming storyline are legion but right now all I can think about is how much time the PTB are going to take to sell their story and the more it fails to resonate, will that translate into them wasting even more of my time selling the unsellable to me?

Part of me is hoping they fast track Laurel to Fakanary just so they can get it out of their systems and finally see for them selves that nothing they do is going to fix Laurel. Then in season four maybe they can put her on a boat and sail away from Star City to do some soul searching or something.

Edited October 11, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Happy Harpy]

 

One minute into The Calm and I realized Laurel rehab wasn't working for me.

You know, watching the episode, I think she worked as well as Laurel can work for me...meaning that she didn't. She just didn't work.

It was the self-entitled, all-about-me Laurel - imo about the only thing akin to continuity in her characterization since S1. It was the forced attempts at making her relevant as a person in Oliver's life (on both points: it wasn't "her" surprise to Oliver, it was Quentin's). I was sighing, "meh, what a waste of airtime" and  "I'd rather have Quentin and Oliver interactions -I know you know and you know I know but officially, no one knows- or cute Quentin and Felicity scenes -those have been cruelly lacking as of S-2B, I'm just saying".

But I didn't feel like throwing things at my TV or get a headache out of eyerolling or feeling embarrassed because the acting was so horrible*. It happened in the last minutes. I had the feeling that the episode was a kind of accelerated summary of what they did with Laurel in season 1-2: Trying to make her tolerable, only to ruin it all by trying to make her important.

I'm always in the same conundrum with Laurel. I find her irrelevant at best, and when they try to make her relevant I find her unbearable.

 

*I wanted to add that I don't know about the directing. Years ago, I helped a movie student friend on the set of a short film. The actors were good, their "instinctive" first take excellent and believable. Then, the  wannabe director made them overact in a way that made me cringe, and yet they went with his directions, because he was the "director". The result was a complete disaster -it's the one he kept- and you would have thought they couldn't act their way out of a paper bag.

All that to say that I do feel that K.Cassidy is miscast, I don't think she can rise above the material the way a Manu Bennett can, but maybe there are other factors to consider in the way Laurel scenes come off onscreen. Maybe the ones who have the final cut love the over-the-top directing/acting the way they love the over-the-top writing for Laurel.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[tv echo]

When I watched that last scene with Laurel wailing over Sara's dead body, I realized that no amount of writing, retconning or revisionist history was going to save this character.  It's the acting that makes the difference.  One actress will take what was intended to be an emotionally devastating scene and make it so hammy that it takes the viewer out of the scene.  Another actress will take one-note writing and add nuances or complexity that elevate the material.  

 

(In contrast - EBR took what could easily have been a 2D character, added depth and personality, and parlayed it into a regular cast role.  Norman Reedus did the same thing on The Walking Dead.)

Edited October 11, 2014 by tv echo

[quarks]

I realized another problem with this storyline: right now, it seems to be a set up to put Laurel on a vengeance path.

 

Now, leaving aside the problem that, as others have noted, we've already seen this with Malcolm, Helena, Isabel, Slade and assorted villains of the week, the real issue is that the show has always said that vengeance isn't justice, isn't the right way, and isn't the path of a hero.  And that long term, it doesn't work: the villains of the week on this path all ended up dead or in jail; Malcolm...ok, Malcolm was sort of successful, but he lost his son, his house and apparently his company and had to go deep underground for a full year; Helena said that obtaining vengeance didn't make her feel better; Isabel's dead; and Slade lost and is in a hole in the ground.

 

Now, maybe Arrow will surprise me and instead have Laurel decide to honor her sister by skipping the revenge bit and moving straight to heroism. The show has set up a basis for this, after all, since they've had Laurel inexplicably decide to forgive people at the end of episodes before this (the pilot, Time of Death). But that leads to another issue, since it will look as if Laurel doesn't care about bringing her sister's killers to justice. This wasn't an issue with Tommy's death, which as others have pointed out would have been a good starting point for Laurel's hero journey, since as far as Laurel knew the guy ultimately responsible for Tommy's death was dead.  In this case, she doesn't know the killer, and so far, the killer has gotten away with it - although it's only been 30 seconds so far.

 

There is a middle road, of course - Laurel tracks down her sister's killer and brings the killer into a courtroom - but beyond the problem that so far, Laurel has been abysmal at this sort of thing, it's still going to have shades of vengeance to it.  Which basically means that they've started off Laurel's path to Black Canary by turning her into a villain - the major complaint made about the portrayal of Huntress on this show, and one complaint made by some viewers about Sara's background as an assassin.)   It's yet another odd choice in the long, long list of odd choices made for and by Laurel.

 

(The same thing may sort of be happening with Thea, except that no one on the show has ever stated that Thea is on the path to becoming a hero, so there the show doesn't have to contend with the "Yes, we promise Thea is going to become a hero!  But first, she needs to go evil!" problem. For all we know the idea is to have Thea stay evil or grey, and of course I'm making a huge assumption here that she's even going evil at all.)

[bethy]

The way they dealt with the press conference, and Laurel's focus on what "she" had done without any reference to her father's role in disbanding the task force was so odd to me. Why not have her acknowledge that it was Quentin who actually had the power to do that? And even if Laurel was the one who suggested it, it wasn't like she'd have to fight for it all. Plus, wasn't she the one who set up? Or at least headed it up when she was all, "Arrow, grrrr"? What a great place that would have been for her to acknowledge her role in trying to hunt Oiver down and maybe apologize for not having known who he was? Now that's the writers' fault ultimately, but KC could have played it less triumphantly or maybe suggested something different if she'd seen an issue.

It just seems like such a missed opportunity to have made Laurel a little more likeable - for me anyway.

[poetgirl925]

Laurel on the vengeance path is such a bad idea on so many levels. It's tired at this point, for one thing. It would also be ironic since I think it's mostly the Laurel as BC supporters who said Sara couldn't work because she was a killer. (Never mind that GA was never a bloodthirsty vigilante in canon either.) I was one of the fans who hated how they butchered Helena's character. So if Laurel also goes down a dark path, she's no more a hero than anyone else by that logic. She really should be the one who's different, but I honestly don't believe they'll handle a Laurel as BC arc well at this point. That ship sailed at least a season ago. I fully expect her to mask up and save the day this season, and it'll be ridiculous, but I've more or less accepted how silly her superhero arc will be.

[apinknightmare]

Granted, the EPs are full of shit, but they said that this arc brings Oliver and Laurel closer together, so I can't imagine that would happen if she decided to go on a path of full-on vengeance. Oliver's already been there, done that, and he would definitely not approve, so if Laurel did decide to go that way, wouldn't that decision push them apart? Unless they decide to do a full-on 180 with Oliver's heroic no-kill policy for the purpose of this part of the story.

[KirkB]

It just seems like such a missed opportunity to have made Laurel a little more likeable - for me anyway.

 

Because I don't think the EP's think the fans don't like Laurel so much as they don't like the fact she isn't the Canary, which is obviously not her fault it's theirs. Laurel hasn't done anything wrong, ever, and they are going to fix what they think is THEIR mistake, by putting her in the mask and fishnets already.

 

Honestly, I got nothing.

Edited October 11, 2014 by KirkB

[Sakura12]

Laurel's "Black" Canary origin story will be my younger sister lived a sad, horribly traumatic, short life to give me a reason to be a super hero. I don't know about anything she's been through or how she survived but I will get all the rewards and glory living her life.

 

I guess that fits with the personality they present for her. Sara's whole life was just for Laurel to have. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

Honestly, I hope the arc crashes and burns. I've never watched the show for BC. But this kinda horrible tone deaf writing for Laurel is going to bleed into everything.

[Ariah]

The only hope I have is that once she becomes the Canary, she'll go to fight crime in some other city. Please... Let that be the case. And let them make another spin-off  - that no-one will watch).

 

As for the story-arch bringing Oliver and laurel closer... I can see this as Oliver seeing how the need for revenge burns in Laurel and destroys her from within (maybe she'll return to alcoholic ways, maybe she'll try to jump his bones in drunk haze and he'll push her aside...). Knowing how vengance can ruin one's life, Oliver will try to save Laurel from this fate - cue a lot of angst. Bonus points for her mistaking his efforts for love - the scene from season 2 when she thought Oliver wanted to spend the night with her and he bailed out is still my favourite :) What can I say, I love them in the comics, I hate them in the series.

[statsgirl]

The pro-Laurel argument is often made that the reason there are problems with the character is that the writing is so bad for her.

 

When she was talking to Sara in this episode, Laurel said "we never wanted you to go back". Well if that's what you were trying to portray, why did you have such a big grin when Sara handed you her jacket?  You could hardly get her on the boat fast enough.

 

Yes, the writing isn't the best. But it's Katie Cassidy that doesn't make it work.  And why the EPs can't see that the way they write Laurel she can't handle is beyond me.

Edited October 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

The longest Laurel meta I've seen: X

 

While I appreciate the time this person took to analyze Laurel, I think they also looked too much into it and is giving the EPs way too much credit than they deserve. Their argument is plausible and on paper, yes I would be rooting for Laurel, yet I can't seem to. I honestly don't know why. Maybe it's KCs acting, maybe it's just the cognitive dissonance between what the EPs say and what happens on screen, maybe it's the fact that 2 years of frustrations can't be rectified that easily? IDK. All I know is, is that this is a seemingly fantastic piece. It just didn't sway me. 

 

Maybe it'll convince you guys of Laurel's journey? :p 

Edited October 11, 2014 by wonderwall

[ban1o]

The longest Laurel meta I've seen: X

 

While I appreciate the time this person took to analyze Laurel, I think they also looked too much into it and is giving the EPs way too much credit than they deserve. Their argument is plausible and on paper, yes I would be rooting for Laurel, yet I can't seem to. I honestly don't know why. Maybe it's KCs acting, maybe it's just the cognitive dissonance between what the EPs say and what happens on screen, maybe it's the fact that 2 years of frustrations can't be rectified that easily? IDK. All I know is, is that this is a seemingly fantastic piece. It just didn't sway me. 

 

Maybe it'll convince you guys of Laurel's journey? :p 

That was actually a really interesting read. Thank you for posting that. It's well written, and it's obvious the writer put a lot of thought into it. 

[wonderwall]

That was actually a really interesting read. Thank you for posting that. It's well written, and it's obvious the writer put a lot of thought into it. 

No worries! Lol what did you think of what she wrote? I actually found myself agreeing with what she said about Laurel. Laurel's had a pretty shitty life, while I think the show did a crappy way of showing it, it doesn't change that Laurel had it rough. Ugh I want to like Laurel so bad, the way she wrote Laurel it made me like her for just a second before remembering everything that happened on screen. *sigh*

[ban1o]

No worries! Lol what did you think of what she wrote? I actually found myself agreeing with what she said about Laurel. Laurel's had a pretty shitty life, while I think the show did a crappy way of showing it, it doesn't change that Laurel had it rough. Ugh I want to like Laurel so bad, the way she wrote Laurel it made me like her for just a second before remembering everything that happened on screen. *sigh*

I actually agree with a lot of what she said (assuming it's a girl lol) Laurel's life has been pretty bad. I don't think anyone can deny that. I have a sister who I'm really close too and I can't even imagine losing her, but then also find out your boyfriend who you were in love with cheated on you with her would be tough. I think since Oliver is the main character and we know all the struggles he went though, we're made to sympathize with him more. 

 

I think part of why Laurel is disliked by many people is because of KC's performance and maybe some of the things she does, but it doesn't change the fact that she has had to go through a lot, stuff that would bring down many people. On paper I think Laurel works better than she has worked on screen. 

 

I am keeping an open mind about her character though. I've never really hated her that much and I thought she was fine towards the end of the second season and she was fine and likable in the premiere. I'll see if the writers and KC do a better job with the character and arch before I judge. It was unfortunate that Sara died, but I feel like that was always the plan for Sara's character (considering she was only a recurring character despite appearing in many episodes), to set Laurel on the path for BC. Kinda like Bruce Waynes parents always die to set him on the path to be Batman and such, like the tumblr post pointed out. Of course it hurts and angers way more because Sara was so awesome and we got to know her really well and she was a great BC. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by ban1o

[scarynikki12]

Remember how so many of us didn't buy the Laurel Is An Addict story from last season?  That we felt it was too rushed with zero foundation?  The crazy thing is that it would actually work THIS season in response to Sara's death.  I would buy Laurel falling off the wagon big time after witnessing what happened to Sara far more than her continuing to be sober and becoming a vigilante.  It would make a lot of sense so it's not going to happen.  At best we'll have a scene where she stares long and hard at a bottle of wine and then go to a meeting where she talks about witnessing Sara's death and talks herself into putting on Sara's mask and taking over.  And that would be horrible.

[foreverevolving]

The longest Laurel meta I've seen: X

 

While I appreciate the time this person took to analyze Laurel, I think they also looked too much into it and is giving the EPs way too much credit than they deserve. Their argument is plausible and on paper, yes I would be rooting for Laurel, yet I can't seem to. I honestly don't know why. Maybe it's KCs acting, maybe it's just the cognitive dissonance between what the EPs say and what happens on screen, maybe it's the fact that 2 years of frustrations can't be rectified that easily? IDK. All I know is, is that this is a seemingly fantastic piece. It just didn't sway me. 

 

Maybe it'll convince you guys of Laurel's journey? :p 

 

That was a beautifully written analysis, and it give a solid logical perspective into the character's layers of emotions and reasons for her actions. The analysis itself can absolutely give me a logical reason and understanding to understand and like Fakanary. Except that i kept looking at the gifs and remembered the actress who portrays her has the emotional acting range of a teaspoon (wait no, a teaspoon can emote better than her) and i'm back to giving zero fucks about her. In the hands of a better actress i would have absolutely been willing to accept the reasoning that Sara's death will be the catalyst of the sister to become Black Canary. but the sister is portrayed by KC who, once again, is a lousy actress who fails to peel for us, the audience, the layers surrounding her characters and not just bring us to her core but bring us to understand and like it.

 

 

so, well written article that has some deep thought behind it. but... you know.

Edited October 11, 2014 by foreverevolving

[statsgirl]

No worries! Lol what did you think of what she wrote? I actually found myself agreeing with what she said about Laurel. Laurel's had a pretty shitty life, while I think the show did a crappy way of showing it, it doesn't change that Laurel had it rough.

I read the article. It's well-written and well-argued.  

 

But to me, Laurel's had a pretty magical life and there is nothing that justifies the anger she carried for six years.   She was raised by two parents who loved her, middle-class so there was enough money. She went to one of the best prep schools, then got into law school and got a good job as a lawyer.  The worst that ever happened to her is that her boyfriend cheated on her with her sister, they both were thought dead and her parents divorced after she had already left home.  But even with that, there was a guy (Tommy) who loved her and wanted to be with her.  

 

No one else on this show has had it as good as Laurel.  Very few people I know in real life have had it so good.  The people I know were refugees from wars or revolutions who came here not knowing English and always feeling like they stuck out.  Others were poor and couldn't continue their educations because there wasn't enough money, or were sexually abused, or were treated badly because of the color of their skin.  I know one woman who grew up in foster care with parents who physically abused her.  People who didn't get into professional school even though they had great GPAs and feel like failures, or those who did get in and couldn't get jobs afterwards.  People who had their husbands cheat on them and then walk out leaving them literally holding the baby without enough money.  People who are disabled either physically or mentally and have to fight to get through every day, or who grew up with a disabled sibling so all the attention went to the sib and they were left out.  Or those who are blind or deaf or physically disabled in some way.  And to compare her to people in other countries who have it worse, she didn't get acid thrown in her face or raped because as a girl she tried to go to school or was married at 12 to a man much older.

 

The Laurel problem for me is that there is very little in Laurel's life that justifies her anger and bitchiness.  I respect people who rise above their problems.  Laurel magnifies hers and uses that to justify being pissy and entitled and ignoring anyone she feels isn't worthy of her.  Most of the time she treated Tommy badly because she felt he didn't measure up to what she had decided she deserved and at the end when he went to her to fight for their relationship because she told him she was going to fight for him, she was having sex with Oliver.  She treated her mother terribly for no reason other than she wanted to hurt other people because she felt that she had been treated badly.

 

Up to the point where Sara fell off the roof, there is nothing that makes me feel sympathy for her in the year 2014 or want to spend time in her company.

Edited October 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

Sara lost her entire life just so Laurel can be a super hero. That is all I see it as.

[Pyramid]

The problem is, for me, the worst thing that ever happened to Laurel actually happened to Sara and Oliver. It's like she's going, " Oh look how my sister and ex suffered, it caused me so much pain."

Which is just flat out bad writing if you want to turn her into a hero. However, if you want the same thing to turn her into a complete narrsassistic arsehole who cachets other people pain into her own personal launching pad, then have at it.

[ban1o]

The problem is, for me, the worst thing that ever happened to Laurel actually happened to Sara and Oliver. It's like she's going, " Oh look how my sister and ex suffered, it caused me so much pain."

Which is just flat out bad writing if you want to turn her into a hero. However, if you want the same thing to turn her into a complete narrsassistic arsehole who cachets other people pain into her own personal launching pad, then have at it.

But like if I lost my sister and boyfriend I would be heart broken. I don't think you can level people's pain. Sure Oliver and Sara went through worse but She suffered for 5 years when she lost them and then Oliver came back, but Sara didn't. And then Tommy dies and then Sara comes back and she finds out she wasn't dead and she was faking it for a while and was actually assassin without even letting her know she was alive. That's like an emotional roller-coaster for someone to go through. Sure some of the ways she has reacted are kidna bitchy and stuff but she has been through a lot. People react to pain in different ways. 

[statsgirl]

But like if I lost my sister and boyfriend I would be heart broken. I don't think you can level people's pain. Sure Oliver and Sara went through worse but She suffered for 5 years when she lost them and then Oliver came back, but Sara didn't. And then Tommy dies and then Sara comes back and she finds out she wasn't dead and she was faking it for a while and was actually assassin without even letting her know she was alive. That's like an emotional roller-coaster for someone to go through. Sure some of the ways she has reacted are kidna bitchy and stuff but she has been through a lot. People react to pain in different ways. 

I think she's been through some.  Not a lot.  And less than every other character on the show, including Roy and Diggle.

 

I think it's okay for her to have mixed emotions now that both Oliver and Sara are back.  But I don't think the amount of anger Laurel carries is "understandable and  justified", which is what the post says. She's been angry for a long time for less reason than anyone else.  And she's done a lot of hurting of other people herself in her anger.

 

Laurel supporters argue that Sara isn't good enough to be the Black Canary because she's an assassin even though she hates killing people and only went back to doing it to saving Starling City.  I think that someone who takes out their pain on others, especially people who have experienced even more pain than she has, isn't the right person to be the Black Canary either. White Canary, maybe.

[Pyramid]

But like if I lost my sister and boyfriend I would be heart broken. I don't think you can level people's pain. Sure Oliver and Sara went through worse but She suffered for 5 years when she lost them and then Oliver came back, but Sara didn't. And then Tommy dies and then Sara comes back and she finds out she wasn't dead and she was faking it for a while and was actually assassin without even letting her know she was alive. That's like an emotional roller-coaster for someone to go through. Sure some of the ways she has reacted are kidna bitchy and stuff but she has been through a lot. People react to pain in different ways.

All that is true. But the point I was trying to make is that as bad a time as Laurel's had, it just doesn't compare to what Oliver and Sara went through. And that would be fine if they just left it at that, but the writers, for unfathomable reasons, are trying to equate what S and O went through with what laurel went through imagining what S and O went through. That doesn't set her on the path to being a hero, that just make her unlikable.

Sigh. I wish she'd just go away so I can watch the show without clenching everything.

[ban1o]

Eh I've never said anything about Sara not deserving to BC, but I don't think you can discount someone's pain because some people have experienced more. Like how is has Diggle went through more than Laurel? 

Edited October 12, 2014 by ban1o

[pootlus]

The Laurel problem for me is that there is very little in Laurel's life that justifies her anger and bitchiness.  I respect people who rise above their problems.  Laurel magnifies hers and uses that to justify being pissy and entitled and ignoring anyone she feels isn't worthy of her.

 

The one time I thought Laurel was authentic was when she screamed "You took my life!" at Sara.  I can totally buy that was KC channelling her frustration at CL since her real feelings seem to bleed through so often (the director really needs to yell at her over that maniacal grin, it's horrible).

 

Even then it's still a strictly one-note performance which is fine for some characters or shows (soaps, sit-coms) but not for Laurel on Arrow. She's just hopelessly miscast and cramming her into a mask and fishnets is not going to improve that.

[Pyramid]

Eh I've never said anything about Sara not deserving to BC, but I don't think you can discount someone's pain because some people have experienced more. Like how is has Diggle went through more than Laurel?

And once again I agree. But I'm not discounting her pain because some people have suffered worse, I'm discounting her pain because she's taken their suffering for her own.

[ban1o]

And once again I agree. But I'm not discounting her pain because some people have suffered worse, I'm discounting her pain because she's taken their suffering for her own.

lol sorry this wasn't in reply to your post I didn't see your post when I posted that. I think it was in reply to statsgirl. 

[catrox14]

And once again I agree. But I'm not discounting her pain because some people have suffered worse, I'm discounting her pain because she's taken their suffering for her own.

 

So she's Co-Dependent Canary....

[Pyramid]

So she's Co-Dependent Canary....

Up next, Münchhausen by Proxy Canary.

[statsgirl]

Like how is has Diggle went through more than Laurel? 

Diggle's brother really is dead, unlike Sara who came back. And so Diggle is trying to act father-like to his orphan nephew, like taking him to see Santa Claus, which must be hard on Diggle because as well as hurting himself, he knows the kid is hurting because he's growing up without a father.  Diggle also went through  a divorce (even though he's back with Lyla now), which is harder than a relationship break-up, and there are all the PTSD issues he went through in his tours in Afghanistan, the bits that were chopped off him.

 

You can't discount someone's pain because other people have had worse things happen to them in their lives. But going back to the blog post again, because given what has happened to her compared to what has happened to other people, I don't think Laurel's anger is justified. I think it's out of step with what has actually happened to her, although I know this is what KC plays best.

[wonderwall]

Eh I've never said anything about Sara not deserving to BC, but I don't think you can discount someone's pain because some people have experienced more. Like how is has Diggle went through more than Laurel? 

I think losing a sister or a parent or a child or whatever is an everyday issue every single normal and not so normal person will deal with at one point in their lives. It's a terrible thing to go through, heck, I've gone through it, and as terrible as it sounds, at one point, we get over our insane amount of sadness and move on. That's why I think it's unbelievable for Laurel to jumpstart her hero journey like that. I know it's like that in the comics, but in my knowledge, Laurel was always surrounded by vigilantes as she was growing up so it seemed plausible why she would want to become a vigilante herself. But on the show she doesn't have this background. I understand a need for vengeance, but not becoming a full fledged hero. Does that make sense? :/

 

Whereas you look at Oliver and Sara's journey, and you see that what they've been through is extraordinary. It's not something that many people can survive physically or emotionally. Oliver and Sara didn't just get over their past. It's not something you move on from which is why I think people compare Laurel's crucible to Oliver and Sara's. Laurel's is ordinary, but Oliver's is extraordinary. I think that's why people are still iffy about Laurel becoming a vigilante/hero. 

 

Oof, yeah I'm not doing a good job articulating my thoughts properly. I apologize. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

I completely understand what you all are saying, but Laurel didn't just lose her boyfriend and her sister, she was also publicly humiliated because of their indiscretion. And she had to stick around and deal with the fallout, deal with the looks, deal with her parents' marriage falling apart because of it. So, yeah, people do deal with death at least once in their lives, and they deal with divorce and embarrassment, but she dealt with that all at once. She truly does have every right to be angry at them, but part of the problem with that is that because of what Oliver and Sara have been through, it makes her anger look selfish (I firmly believe that it absolutely is NOT), so she's never really allowed to cycle through all that the way you normally would, because doing that makes her look like an asshole.

 

A lot of us are driven to do things through our life experiences, and just because yours might be less painful than mine doesn't make you any less worthy of the end result than I am. Say my entire family was wiped out by a raging house fire when I was a kid, and you just have a relentless desire to save people who are in mortal peril, and we both end up being firemen. Am I more worthy of the job than you are? No. We're united in a common purpose, being driven by different things.

 

The problem with Laurel IMO isn't that she hasn't suffered enough to become a hero, it's that she's never shown the right motivation to want to be one in the first place. She had this crush on/fascination with the vigilante, but most of the time during their interactions, he was helping her, not the other way around. So, she's never shown this intense desire to go outside the law to help, but she has shown a willingness to go outside the law to be helped or help herself (blackmail, anyone?). She finds out Oliver's the Arrow, and all of a sudden she's going to Verdant and hugging him, telling him he's important to her. She gets that weird obsessed look when Sara carries that kid out of the burning building, then that huge-ass smile when she's handed the jacket. IMO, the problem is that it seems so far like Laurel is driven by the desire to be a part of the club, not because she actually wants to do good in the way that Oliver and Sara (well, kinda) had been. Now that Sara's conveniently out of the way, she has a way into that club, and the way they went about it makes it difficult to swallow for me. I'm trying to reserve judgment until it plays out on my screen. Trying.

 

I personally don't think she needs 5 years of training like Sara and Oliver had to be believable. Fighting is fighting whether you learned it because you wanted to, or because you had to in order to survive. And it's not like she's unable to defend herself - the show proved that she could when they needed her to, just like they made her a helpless damsel when they needed her to be one of those. She needs to take her lumps, I'm not arguing that she doesn't, and maybe she will. Is it ridiculous to think she'd be at Oliver's level after 5 months? Yeah. Do I think she could handle herself in a fight? Yeah, maybe. Maybe they'll show her struggling and not being so good at it at first? Fingers crossed. I realize I'm putting a lot of faith into the writers here, and they absolutely do not deserve it. And I know that ultimately she'll be the Mary Sue of vigilantes, but like I wrote, I'm trying here.

 

What ultimately makes this unbelievable to me is a) the writing has failed this character at nearly every turn. There's no subtlety to it, no nuance to make us feel for her the way that we should, and her motivation is dubious at best and b) the way KC portrays Laurel's angsty/"vulnerable" side makes the writing failures 100x more obvious.

Edited October 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[foreverevolving]

Eh I've never said anything about Sara not deserving to BC, but I don't think you can discount someone's pain because some people have experienced more. Like how is has Diggle went through more than Laurel? 

you're joking right?

even if we discount the dead brother, his active combat past is quite enough to screw a person 20 times over and than some more. I recommend spending some time with military veterans or individuals who were prisoners of war; I say this from personal experience, i know plenty of former active combat people, as well as one prisoner of war- my moms partner, the torture he went through are even worse than what Oliver been through on the Island).

 

So do that, I doubt you'll be drawing that comparison ever again.

Edited October 12, 2014 by foreverevolving

[wonderwall]

I completely understand what you all are saying, but Laurel didn't just lose her boyfriend and her sister, she was also publicly humiliated because of their indiscretion. And she had to stick around and deal with the fallout, deal with the looks, deal with her parents' marriage falling apart because of it. So, yeah, people do deal with death at least once in their lives, and they deal with divorce and embarrassment, but she dealt with that all at once. She truly does have every right to be angry at them, but part of the problem with that is that because of what Oliver and Sara have been through, it makes her anger look selfish (I firmly believe that it absolutely is NOT), so she's never really allowed to cycle through all that the way you normally would, because doing that makes her look like an asshole.

Yeah I see the problem with how I saw Laurel. I tend to view each of her losses in a vacuum. I think this is because she loses Oliver and Sara, she gets better by going to law school and builds a life, she loses Tommy goes through her drunken phase, but then she gets better... Basically the Laurel we see right now is essentially the Laurel we saw in the pilot except less pissed. So that's why I tend to separate Laurel losing Sara and everything else? I don't think that's fair but that's what the show forced me how to see it. Does that kind of make sense? :/ 

 

But at this point, I don't think Laurel could ever be as good a fighter as Oliver unless she trains with the LoA or the equivalent of the LoA because Laurel has a job, she has other obligations and there are only 24 hours in a day so logistically I don't see her becoming a world class martial artist. 

 

Like I said before. Everything Laurel went through on paper is more believable than what I see on screen. 

[Sakura12]

I completely understand what you all are saying, but Laurel didn't just lose her boyfriend and her sister, she was also publicly humiliated because of their indiscretion. And she had to stick around and deal with the fallout, deal with the looks, deal with her parents' marriage falling apart because of it. So, yeah, people do deal with death at least once in their lives, and they deal with divorce and embarrassment, but she dealt with that all at once. She truly does have every right to be angry at them, but part of the problem with that is that because of what Oliver and Sara have been through, it makes her anger look selfish (I firmly believe that it absolutely is NOT), so she's never really allowed to cycle through all that the way you normally would, because doing that makes her look like an asshole.

 

They tell us that but have never showed us that or KC has not been able to portray that. We can make up all the stories we want for what she went through, what they showed us was Laurel was well adjusted enough to go to Law School, become a Lawyer and get on with her life. While Sara and Oliver were not given that luxury (Sara even more since she's dead). SA and CL showed us how much Oliver and Sara were still suffering from their ordeal. KC has not shown me that same suffering. Plus like stated above, Laurel's suffers then she's all better with no lasting effects. 

 

And it's not like she's unable to defend herself - the show proved that she could when they needed her to,

 

Also Laurel's defense of herself has been one punch and immediately get kidnapped. I have not seen that she's able to defend herself. Learning to fight at 20 is different then learning to fight at 30 and learning to fight to survive is different than learning to fight in a classroom situation. Fighting to survive will make you learn a lot quicker and give you more of a drive to be better because your life depends on it. Learning in a classroom or gym is just that, there is no real threat to your life. And again like stated above, Laurel does not have the time to devote herself to learn to be a master martial artist in a short time. It takes years to master the level Oliver and Sara are at and they had nothing else to do while learning. 

Edited October 12, 2014 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

Yeah I see the problem with how I saw Laurel. I tend to view each of her losses in a vacuum. I think this is because she loses Oliver and Sara, she gets better by going to law school and builds a life, she loses Tommy goes through her drunken phase, but then she gets better... Basically the Laurel we see right now is essentially the Laurel we saw in the pilot except less pissed. So that's why I tend to separate Laurel losing Sara and everything else? I don't think that's fair but that's what the show forced me how to see it. Does that kind of make sense? :/ 

 

But at this point, I don't think Laurel could ever be as good a fighter as Oliver unless she trains with the LoA or the equivalent of the LoA because Laurel has a job, she has other obligations and there are only 24 hours in a day so logistically I don't see her becoming a world class martial artist. 

 

Like I said before. Everything Laurel went through on paper is more believable than what I see on screen. 

 

I think it's easier to be sympathetic to Laurel's story than it is to be sympathetic to Laurel the person. The bones are there for a compelling character, but writing and playing residual anger at people who have been through hell takes nuance and skill at a level that hasn't been shown in the writing or the acting IMO.

 

But yeah, it's just my personal opinion that no, she wouldn't become a world-class fighter or martial artist, and that she wouldn't be on Oliver or Sara's level, but I don't think it's unreasonable to get to a place where she's able to hold her own in a fight. I think the show is going to have her be Sara 2.0, but I'm just hoping they don't do that.

[wonderwall]

I think it's easier to be sympathetic to Laurel's story than it is to be sympathetic to Laurel the person. The bones are there for a compelling character, but writing and playing residual anger at people who have been through hell takes nuance and skill at a level that hasn't been shown in the writing or the acting IMO.

You are exactly right. That's exactly how I feel and I didn't even know it before you pointed it out, so thank you! :p On the surface she could be a compelling character, but if you look close enough, at all the clunky lines, the less than stellar acting (that doesn't help me sympathize with her), and the inconsistency of character, it makes it difficult to like her. 

[apinknightmare]

They tell us that but have never showed us that or KC has not been able to portray that. We can make up all the stories we want for what she went through, what they showed us was Laurel was well adjusted enough to go to Law School, become a Lawyer and get on with her life. While Sara and Oliver were not given that luxury (Sara even more since she's dead). SA and CL showed us how much Oliver and Sara were still suffering from their ordeal. KC has not shown me that same suffering. Plus like stated above, Laurel's suffers then she's all better with no lasting effects. 

 

If they tell us that's her story, that is her story. That's why I wrote that the writing and acting has ultimately failed the character they're trying to sell - because her story is sympathetic on paper, but she herself isn't sympathetic to the sizable portion of the audience who is rejecting her.

 

 

Also Laurel's defense of herself has been one punch and immediately get kidnapped. I have not seen that she's able to defend herself. Learning to fight at 20 is different then learning to fight at 30 and learning to fight to survive is different than learning to fight in a classroom situation. Fighting to survive will make you learn a lot quicker and give you more of a drive to be better. Learning in a classroom or gym is just that, there is no real threat to your life.

 

I remember her holding her own fairly well on a few occasions in season 1, but I could be mistaken. I'm not saying she could take out a gang of assassins or even ONE assassin, but they've laid the groundwork for a low-level skill set that could be built upon. The damseling got fairly bad in the second season but that goes back to my point of writing failures for Laurel. And you're right, learning to fight for survival is different than learning in a classroom gym, but if you can throw a punch, you can throw a punch. If you can dodge a punch, you can dodge a punch. If you can evade an attacker, you can evade an attacker - it doesn't matter how you learned it or how long it took you to learn it. There's basic competence, and then there's nuance. Laurel can attain a level of basic competence - realistically, she probably wouldn't get very nuanced.

 

I'm not saying that Laurel should be on the same level as Oliver, Sara, or even Roy. All I'm saying is that there is a believable route to her being a semi-competent, somewhat limited fighter if they choose to take it. I personally don't think they will. Like I wrote in my original post - I think she'll be the Mary Sue of vigilantes. We've already been spoiled that

Nyssa's going to be impressed with some of her moves,

so...meh.

 

My main point in my original post wasn't really about the fighting, it was more about how she doesn't need to have suffered like Oliver and Sara to be a vigilante, she needs to have the right motivation to do it, and she doesn't.

[Morrigan2575]

I remember her holding her own fairly well on a few occasions in season 1, but I could be mistaken. I'm not saying she could take out a gang of assassins or even ONE assassin, but they've laid the groundwork for a low-level skill set that could be built upon.

To my knowledge the only person in S1 she managed to beat up was the rich douche that had his thugs beating up Tommy/Oliver. She won by coming up behind the guy and attacking him from behind. Later in the season she defended herself with a shotgun that jammed and needed a rescue. Also in S1 when China White attacked Laurel didn't even try to defend herself she ran into Oliver's arms.

In S2 she disarmed the one fake hood and then the other guy got the drop on her. Same things happened in BoP, 221 and in 223 she only punched the guy after Sara shot him with the cure. In all S2 cases, she needed a rescue. Except for the time she shot the fake Blood in the back while he was fighting Arrow.

Which scenes were you thinking of where she held her own?

Edited October 12, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Which scenes were you thinking of where she held her own?

 

Well, maybe it was just that one that I've multiplied out into other scenarios in my memory, that's why I wrote that I could be mistaken, which I obviously am. As you can tell, I'm highly invested in her character!

Edited October 12, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

Basically they've shown us that Laurel knows how shoot a gun. No fighting skills are necessary for that. If she's going to go around shooting people to save them, I'll buy that. 

 

As for fighting skills I'm in Krav Maga and that takes a year just to get the next level and it'll probably take me longer because I have a job and can only get to class 2, maybe 3 times a week. I also have belts in Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Judo from when I was younger. So it's not that easy to master marital arts even with prior experience. It comes down to time and dedication. Laurel may have the dedication with Sara being dead, but I don't see how she'll have the time with a job that requires more than the normal 9-5. 

[apinknightmare]

Basically they've shown us that Laurel knows how shoot a gun. No fighting skills are necessary for that. If she's going to go around shooting people to save them, I'll buy that. 

 

As for fighting skills I'm in Krav Maga and that takes a year just to get the next level and it'll probably take me longer because I have a job and can only get to class 2, maybe 3 times a week. I also have belts in Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Judo from when I was younger. So it's not that easy to master marital arts even with prior experience. It comes down to time and dedication. Laurel may have the dedication with Sara being dead, but I don't see how she'll have the time with a job that requires more than the normal 9-5. 

 

I'll end it with this comment, because I'm honestly not disagreeing with you. Like I wrote, I think it's conceivable that she could fight (she's going to a boxer for training, not a martial artist), not be a master, not be proficient in martial arts. I just think it's realistic that she would not be great at fighting, but just be able to hold her own in a fight. But like I also wrote, I don't think the show is going to go that way. I think they'll have her be prodigy level good. Unbelievably (literally) good.

Edited October 12, 2014 by apinknightmare