Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[statsgirl]

I "needed" Oliver and Laurel together in season 1 to end it for good.  (I shipped Tommy/Laurel because Tommy made Laurel likable, with Oliver she was a pain.)

Now I need them to be blue dead as a relationship. Shakespeare couldn't find a believable way to write them together again.

Edited April 14, 2014 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

5. If you want Laurel and Oliver to be Lois and Clark, then you have to make them Lois and Clark.  "I don't know my ex-boyfriend's secret identity but an evil supervillain just told me NOW WHAT" does not make you Lois.

 

 I just want to say at the start that I actually agree with your whole post, but I had to respond because I laughed at this part. That is exactly what happened to Lois in Lois and Clark. Lois didn't know Clark was Superman. A bad guy named Tempus came out and told her, to her face, "Clark Kent is Superman." So I just wanted to thank you for the funny memory. But you're right. While making Oliver and Laurel like Lois and Clark is an admirable goal it doesn't seem to jibe with anything we've seen on the show. I don't even understand why Laurel and Oliver were ever together. He was a lying, cheating ass before the island and a cold, distant hypocrite since the isand. And for the record, I was rooting for Laurel and Tommy last season.

Edited April 15, 2014 by KirkB

[catrox14]

Ugh. That is the LAST thing I wanted to hear from the producers.  I'm just flummoxed as to what information they have that tells them that THIS Laurel and THIS Oliver should be an end game.  As much as I adore Stephen Amell and everything else that they have done right with this show to make it my current favorite show, trying to push Lauriver on me is going to send me running. 

And IMO it's a disservice to Caity Lotz and the entire show to push Laurel into either the BC role or Oliver's girlfriend again.

[quarks]

I didn't know about Tempus, so thanks for that correction!

But the chief difference is that in whatever medium the characters appear in, comics, TV, movies, whatever, and however/whenever Lois finds out about Clark's secret identity or if she even finds out, Lois believes in Superman. 

Laurel has no reason to believe in the Hood/Arrow. She's seen him kill people. As a result, sometimes she's for him, sometimes against him, sometimes she uses him because she's apparently too inept to use her OWN KEY CARD to go into city files she IS ALLOWED TO ACCESS.  Er. Sorry. I'm getting over this, I promise.

Which right there means that their interactions will be completely different than anything that's going on with Lois and Clark whether or not Lois knows the truth or Lois and Clark are together or not. And if you can't see this....then maybe right there that explains the entire problem of why Laurel and Oliver aren't working on this show. The writers think they are Lois and Clark, when they can't be, because Oliver Queen is not and has never been Superman.

[pootlus]

I didn't know about Tempus, so thanks for that correction!

The scene is a dramatic one, but it's also of course played for laughs, to poke fun at the 'how can she possibly not know?' trope. It's all in the delivery, of course - and when I get home I'm going to compare Teri Hatcher's expression with Katie Cassidy's - because there's a fairly long reaction shot on Lois and I don't remember laughing out loud at that in particular (Lane Davies's Kirk Alyn-esque delivery, on the other hand...).

But the chief difference is that in whatever medium the characters appear in, comics, TV, movies, whatever, and however/whenever Lois finds out about Clark's secret identity or if she even finds out, Lois believes in Superman.

Laurel has no reason to believe in the Hood/Arrow. She's seen him kill people. As a result, sometimes she's for him, sometimes against him, sometimes she uses him because she's apparently too inept to use her OWN KEY CARD to go into city files she IS ALLOWED TO ACCESS. Er. Sorry. I'm getting over this, I promise.

I think it also has relevance in that when the revelation occured, Lois and Clark were just getting close - they'd been on a couple of dates and Lois had opened up emotionally to him on a number of occasions. So when the clanger drops, it hurts. As Clark says later after she finds out for real, "This is going to be worse than mad, isn't it". And they do get mad and snippy at each other, although being an episodic show it's all wrapped up fairly quickly and they do reconcile.

Laurel and Oliver? They've barely spoken for months, they had one fling prior to which she was dating his best friend. The last serious conversation they had, he was shouting at her. Laurel can hardly expect, under the circumstances, that he would confide in her. Of course, Laurel seems to be completely oblivious and self-centred, so presumably she'll think that she was the first person he should have told.

There are a number of other differences though.

Clark's real-life persona isn't that of a playboy douche - it's of a hardworking journalist who loves his family and is funny, smart and caring. Lois intprets his running out at odd moments as a failure of committment, but overall Clark is a nice guy and let's face it makes a pretty damn fine boyfriend. And he looks like Dean Cain. Win!

Oliver is also a complete flake, but even when he's not pretending to be Oliver Queen, billionaire playboy, he's still damaged, distant, and frequently an asshole and a douchebag even to his closest friends (Diggle, Felicity, Sara) who he doesn't have to pretend with. Looking like Stephen Amell is a definite plus, but it doesn't exactly make Oliver attractive partner material.

Which right there means that their interactions will be completely different than anything that's going on with Lois and Clark whether or not Lois knows the truth or Lois and Clark are together or not. And if you can't see this....then maybe right there that explains the entire problem of why Laurel and Oliver aren't working on this show. The writers think they are Lois and Clark, when they can't be, because Oliver Queen is not and has never been Superman.

Exactly. I've said several times that I adore Lois and Clark which did get some things wrong but (admittedly thanks to the fact that the leads had a ton of chemistry) the interaction between Lois and Clark was done pretty well. I've also been catching up on a lot of Byrne-era Superman comics and it seemed to me that once Lois had actually realised that she did like Clark romantically, they got together, got engaged and got married. There wasn't a huge 'will-they-won't-they' thing - because people read Superman comics because they want to see Superman juggling planets, not some bad soap opera. And the roadblocks that did occur were things like Superman actually dying because Doomsday beat the everliving shit out of him. Not Clark shagging Lucy Lane.

So yes, Kreisberg's comments annoy the shit out of me. The trainwreck that is Laurel/Oliver on this show is not even in the same universe (literally, or Superman would have stopped the Undertaking!) as Lois and Clark, in whatever incarnation they happen to be.

Edited April 15, 2014 by pootlus

[BkWurm1]

The Lois and Clark analogy is ridiculous.  In the Superman comics, the relationship between Lois and Clark is one of the defining characteristics of the series.  How they related to each other has changed through the years, but Lois and Clark/Superman were a duo in themselves.   Where you found one you always eventually found the other.  

The Green Arrow and The Black Canary are characters that have been linked romantically but operated also independently from one another.  They are each heroes in their own right with their own stories and their own rogues gallery.  

As much as I love Lois Lane, she is and always will be a co-star with Clark/Supes.  There is seventy years of history that says Lois and Clark belong together.  Even on Smallville where I hated that Lois Lane, I still was rooting for the character that I saw as the embodiment of the Iconic Lois Lane.  I've never for one second doubted where Clark Kent's heart belonged.   

Green Arrow and Black Canary aren't in the same category at all.  Their relationship does not define their characters.  Most people wouldn't have even known who they are let alone that they should be together.  Even in the current Green Arrow comics, it's my understanding that they aged the Black Canary up and out of Oliver's dating range and have her happily married, which to me says the current comics have no plans on putting them together.  Why force it on a TV show that is expected to shake up things from its comic origins????

Arghhhhhhhh!

[pootlus]

Well I watched the reaction shot in Tempus, Fugitive, and they don't allow a long continuous shot - it's more like a short series of snaps.  Perhaps I was too hard on Cassidy as Hatcher goes perilously close to "232 divided by 13" territory (one of her few misfires, IMO).  That show (or that episode) had a smarter director/editor though, clearly.

Being played partly for laughs probably helps though.  The Arrow scene is supposed to be a Big.Damn.Moment and it falls flat because it is so unintentionally funny as well as highlighting the absurd lack of door security/common sense on Laurel's part.

[Morrigan2575]

Their relationship does not define their characters. Most people wouldn't have even known who they are let alone that they should be together. Even in the current Green Arrow comics, it's my understanding that they aged the Black Canary up and out of Oliver's dating range and have her happily married, which to me says the current comics have no plans on putting them together. Why force it on a TV show that is expected to shake up things from its comic origins????

I should know this, they gave Dinah'so backstory in BoP #25. I want to say they're close in age, both in the mid to late 20s. Dinah's husband Kurt, is comatosed but she certainly does love him.

[quarks]

Pootlus, I honestly wasn't even thinking just of the Lois and Clark show, but Lois and Clark in general. Which is going to be fundamentally different no matter how it's played out or when/if Lois finds out - because Superman is a hero. Lois can get mad at him and often does, and she may or may not end up with him because of the whole Superman: Man of Steel, Lois Lane: Woman of Kleenex issue, but she will always admire and trust Superman. And you can't get after her for falling in love with a guy who saves the world on a daily basis and sometimes stops to save a kitten even if he has been lying to her, whether or not any of it is played for laughs.

Bkwrm1, I'm not going to disagree that Lois Lane is a supporting character; nevertheless, she's been popular enough through the years to occasionally be in her own comic - and she's independent enough to do so. Lois Lane is well established as a reporter that goes after stories even if this puts her at risk, so there's stories there - and in every version, no one questions her acumen/writing ability, and she's able to write up her stories on her own.

That in theory should also be true for Laurel - and the show even had some hints of that in the first season. Unfortunately, the show also immediately undercut that by not allowing Laurel to win a single case without the help of Oliver/the Hood all season. This season is even worse, with the end result that no one is talking about a Laurel spinoff - at best, people are talking about a Birds of Prey spinoff with Helena, Laurel and Sara.

[Zalyn]

That's a good point, quarks - that Laurel hasn't been able to win anything as a lawyer without Oliver's help.  Maybe I've been watching too much Leverage lately, but it would have been neat to have had an episode where Laurel managed to put the bad guy away when Oliver failed to.  It would have shown that there are different types of strength that are all appropriate for different situations. That also could have established her more as a competent lawyer on her own.  I think the adherence to superhero story tropes prevents this sort of thing from happening, sadly (again, tension between canon and stories appropriate for cast/characters).

[KirkB]

Sorry, the tangent into the Lois and Clark show is my fault. I brought it up in the first place because I flashed to that episode when I was reading the post I was responding to. As for the point of discussion, Lois and Clark vs Oliver and Laurel doesn't really work as a comparison. In the comics Lois and Clark are a One True Pairing, even if the comics have broken them up (I haven't read anything recently so I have no idea where they are now), while Laurel and Oliver are an on again, off again couple who have sex whenever it happens to be coneveniant. On the show I have seen nothing which makes me understand why Oliver and Laurel were ever together in the first place. Oh sure, I can see pre-island Oliver hooking up with Laurel 'cause she was around and he was horny, and going off with Sara on the side for basically the same reason (hell, he probably would've have taken a shot at their mom too, given the chance). Since the island his focus is more on the city, first trying to save it from itself and now trying to fix it. Laurel...I'm not even sure what her role is on the show right now.

[mstaken]

While I agree wholeheartedly with the dislike of Laurel and the actress who plays her, I actually think even Laurel---yes, even she!---deserves better than Oliver, who deceived her, cheated on her with lord knows how many women, and shows no compunction about jumping into bed (AGAIN!) with her own sister. I agree that the idea of them back together on any level is far more cringe-inducingly dysfunctional and gross than 'epic', but it's in large part because I honestly can't begin to understand why she would want anything to do with him at this point. 

[calliope1975]

I agree that the idea of them back together on any level is far more cringe-inducingly dysfunctional and gross than 'epic', but it's in large part because I honestly can't begin to understand why she would want anything to do with him at this point.

 

Exactly. Sister swapping is gross. Period. End of sentence. If Laurel and Oliver were to get back together at this point, I doubt I could buy the relationship, and it would probably be a show killer for me. Maybe if the writing was good enough, but it's not. 

[Zalyn]

Sorry, the tangent into the Lois and Clark show is my fault. I brought it up in the first place because I flashed to that episode when I was reading the post I was responding to.

No worries; I'm not bothered by it.  In fact, it's entirely appropriate since the exec producer directly alluded to it.  What a world we live in when the actors are better at promoting the show and its storylines than the producers!  Besides my own aversion to "destined to be together" pairings in general, I fully agree with what others have said in noting that Laurel and Oliver just don't fit together.  Independently, each has the ability to grow up, but their original relationship was just toxic and holds both back. Better for them to cultivate an effective relationship professionally  - Laurel as the "legit hero lawyer" and Oliver as the vigilante - as a nod to the Green Arrow / Black Canary pairing, than to shoehorn it into how it's been done in the comics.  But of course, that would require good writing for Laurel...

[pootlus]

Eek, sorry about the Lois and Clark diversion.  It was quite interesting (at least to me, heh) to compare the two revelation scenes and then the two relationships generally (over and above L&C the show).

I haven't read any GA comics so I'll take other people's word for the relationship between GA and BC in that one.  But yeah in the Superman-verse Lois is a supporting character - she probably appears about as much as his parents, or Perry or Jimmy, and barring the odd one-shot she doesn't have her own comics series like Dinah does. 

Not that I think this Laurel is Dinah Laurel Lance in anything but the name, and if the producers think I'm just waiting for it they need to quit smoking the bong.

[BkWurm1]

Quarks "I'm not going to disagree that Lois Lane is a supporting character; nevertheless, she's been popular enough through the years to occasionally be in her own comic - and she's independent enough to do so. Lois Lane is well established as a reporter that goes after stories even if this puts her at risk, so there's stories there - and in every version, no one questions her acumen/writing ability, and she's able to write up her stories on her own."

I agree that Lois Lane is a well fleshed out character and yes I'd heard about her having her own comic book aimed at girls but even in her own comic book title she exists only within Superman's world. She might go do her own investigation but everyone knows it's only a temporary thing. She doesn't exist apart from Superman while Black Canary is not defined by Green Arrow. That's the distinction I don't think the show-runner's grasp. (To be clear, I have little interest in Superman existing without Lois)

It bothers me that they are even trying to make the kickass BC a mere byproduct of Oliver's actions. Doesn't it step all over Black Canary's origin story? Personally I think -no matter who turns out to be BC- the show runners have treated the character with a lot of disrespect. They've reduced her from comic book hero status to either damsel in distress or fuckbuddy.

Edited April 16, 2014 by BkWurm1

[SonofaBiscuit]

Ugh, these EPs sure have a way of killing any enthusiasm that I have for this show.  I've gone from watching live to actively avoiding watching in any way that will contribute to the ratings.  Sure, they can write their story and give me what I "need", but I'm pretty sure they need my viewership ratings, and I'm not going to give them that if I'm unhappy with how the story is going.  I know that Kreisberg in particular is aware of the criticisms that people have about Laurel since he has said as much in interviews, so I'm not sure what his angle is here.

The thing is, there is absolutely nothing that they can do to make me like Laurel at this point.  When it comes to TV, I have this list of actors who have built up so much good will from other roles that I have seen them in that I will give any new show they are in a shot, even if it doesn't appeal to me.  I also have another list.  A list of actors who every time they show up on the screen, I wonder what bad deed I have done to deserve this (usually while yelling at the screen, "I hate that guy!").  Sometimes, a role has turned me against this actor (see Jon Hamm in Mad Men), and sometimes it's just unexplainable and possibly irrational dislike (see Jason George--I swear that guy keeps showing up in everything I watch!).  Very early on, Katie Cassidy joined this second list, the bad list.  So, no Kreisberg, there is probably no storyline that you could ever write to make me like Laurel because once an actor makes it on my bad list, they very rarely ever make it off again.  Like I said, it's irrational, but there you have it.

[quarks]

Sigh. "The Man Under the Hood" episode and Laurel. Sigh. Have I sighed enough yet?

This episode neatly encapsulated everything that is wrong about the character for me:

1. It starts out with a potentially good to great moment. Laurel doesn't immediately believe the bad guy. Good for her.  And proof that the character doesn't have to be terrible. Yay.

Then...

2.  We switch to Laurel going to the hospital to check on Sara. Does Sara actually need to be in the hospital? No. As the doctor points out, she's not badly injured; just a fractured wrist. More to the point, this is after countless episodes demonstrating that Team Arrow prefers to do almost all medical stuff inside the Arrow Cave to avoid awkward questions - a point that even gets made later in the same episode.  

So why is Sara there? So that Laurel can find out information about Sara and have her suspicions confirmed. It's yet another case of the plot bending itself to give Laurel something to do, not a plot that needs Laurel in it.  That this requires both Sara and a random doctor to act out of character (doctors don't give out medical information like that to relatives who have to introduce themselves when the patient is alert) - no biggie, because Laurel has to have something to do. 

(We then have an awkward moment where Oliver once again shows up and barely touches Sara, although in this case I can handwave it because it would be more than a bit rude for them to shove their relationship in front of Laurel again.)

3. In the midst of really, serious, major problems: Oliver needing to get his furious sister to sign a form for the trust fund (which was also contrived and irritating, but moving on), Slade creating a superpowered army, Quentin in jail, Roy missing, Felicity nearly blabbing the secret to random people from the Flash show, suddenly, the action has to stop dead because Laurel has called the Arrow.

I know people criticized the acting here. I'm not going to criticize it, because once again, after giving some hope that the writing for Laurel had improved, and at a point where the writers have to know that Cassidy cannot handle a scene if she does not know and understand her motivation in it, they gave us a scene where Laurel, knowing her father is in jail, knowing a nutcase kidnapper just pounded on her door, knowing that the kidnapper is still out there, having just seen Oliver and Sara riding the motorcycle around to fight crime (and by the way, Oliver/Sara, this isn't your thread so I'll be kind, but if Laurel can follow you, you might want to work on your discretion a bit), thus knowing that serious )(**^**(*)(*) is going down, takes this moment to start delivering a major speech instead of getting to the point.

I mean, I can see why the writers wanted to do this. As I noted earlier, Laurel finding out is a Big Damn Moment (or should have been), something the show has in theory been moving towards since the pilot, so I can see why they wanted to give her a Major Speech. The problem is twofold: it wasn't the time for it, throwing the entire scene off balance, and two: the writers keep forgetting that Laurel exists in contrast to other characters, all of whom accepted the revelation with much shorter speeches. Diggle was basically, "Are you kidding me," with later discussion of his role with Oliver.  Felicity was, "Oh my god, this explains so much," with later discussion of her role on the team. Tommy was, "You're a serial killer!" Roy was, "You saved my life!" Isabel and Amanda Waller: "Your nighttime activities!"

....and then we have Laurel, who decides to try to give a Big Damn Speech and isn't even able to finish it.

4. So, after Quentin has been arrested and beaten up for being the Arrow, it turns out that all of this is so that he can convince Laurel not to tell people about Arrow.

5. Then we have the "I'l sue you if you don't release him!" Laurel. Kate Spencer is your boss and you are already on very thin ice with her. Threatening her with lawsuits?  And why, exactly, is Kate Spencer threatened anyway? Oh. Right. I keep forgetting; this is most incompetent DA's office on television.

6. And then the final hug scene, which...ok, then.

I'll note that their hug lasted longer than any of the Oliver/Sara moments, which I hope isn't a sign for where this is going.

[BkWurm1]

I'll note that their hug lasted longer than any of the Oliver/Sara moments, which I hope isn't a sign for where this is going.

 

I had a bad moment where I thought she was going to try kissing him.  A long string of desperate "NO, no, no, no!" came rushing out.  Between finding out Oliver and his father shared Isabel's, ah, um, "favors" and the implied intention to revisit the sister swapping stuff, I was just grossed out. 

[quarks]

I found it very odd that in an episode where Thea showed clear disgust that she had nearly made out with her half-brother and where Oliver looked appalled to find out that he'd slept with his father's girlfriend, the writers would actually have Laurel say "I always felt drawn to you" and "you're important to me."

That probably would have been bad anyway, but in an episode where other characters were reacting badly to somewhat similar situations, it felt really off. 

[BkWurm1]

That probably would have been bad anyway, but in an episode where other characters were reacting badly to somewhat similar situations, it felt really off.

 

Yes, this!  I thought it really stood out and felt extra icky.  I also was disgusted that now that Laurel knows Oliver's secret, he is really important to her.  That's really not the emotion I was picking up prior to her knowledge.  I really wanted her to show the same sudden love to her sister, but no, Laurel seems fine with Oliver, but Sara, she's holding back still. 

[statsgirl]

Since Laurel gave up on Oliver in disgust a number of times in the past two seasons, I would have expected her to be more concerned with Sara's scars than with hugging Oliver.

Stalking Arrow and Canary outside the labs was just creepy.

I don't understand why Kreisburg thought we would be so in love with Laurel when we found out how she handled knowing Oliver was the Arrow.  She thought about it, talked to her father, bought his reasoning, and didn't tell.  Those are the actions of a rational intelligent person. Why should we be sending up fireworks when Laurel finally behaves like a normal person would?

[Happy Harpy]

 

She thought about it, talked to her father, bought his reasoning, and didn't tell.  Those are the actions of a rational intelligent person. Why should we be sending up fireworks when Laurel finally behaves like a normal person would?

Yes, and why hype it, since he seems aware of the criticism toward the character? It seems the writers still think they can reverse people's opinion about Laurel overnight, or with a BDM. It baffles me, after what they did to her this season.

I can't stand this character and even I was insulted by her assassination re: Laurel/Sara backstory. If they didn't do this, I might have believed it was only the pills talking and not her true personality when she acted like a self-centered, raging bitch.

I remember Marc Guggenheim's tweet about a "new and improved" Laurel in S2. Let's see how it went for me (so all that comes is imho, of course). She began with unfairly blaming the Arrow for Tommy's death and leading a vendetta that compromised the good Oliver does, so she came off bad. Then, she went through a crucible that resulted in an epic fail since Sara (and others) went through worse at the same time ("everybody leaves me", anyone?) so she came off bad. It was revealed around that time that she wasn't the "good sister" everybody thought, so she came off bad. And now, all of a sudden...she's the "good sister" and a goody-two-shoes lawyer, which means exactly what she was back in S1. Except that she knows Oliver's identity, knowledge the character didn't "earn" through a personal storyline or personal investigation, but that was randomly dropped in her lap, which means to me that she has exactly the same relevance/significance as back in S1: none. Again, imho.

Don't get me started on Laurel/Oliver.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[writersblock51]

Laurel hasn't earned anything but my disgust.

As of today, she knows Oliver's secret because someone else told her after she had ample opportunity to figure it out herself.  We've been told 1) she knows Oliver better than anyone else and that she's 2) a bright, competent lawyer.  Well, she does NOT know Oliver better than anyone else.  And she's not bright. At all.  She would have checked the peephole and not let Slade into her apartment, for example.

She has her old job back in the DA's office because she blackmailed the DA to re-hire her. 

She doesn't actually seem to work since she inexplicably showed up at various points around Starling City.  But all that she accomplished was to get her father released via questionable techniques.

She seems open to the possibility of getting back together with Oliver in the future.  Have some damn pride.  And shame on the writers for even entertaining this possibility.  It's disgusting and a big turn off.

[mstaken]

She seems open to the possibility of getting back together with Oliver in the future.  Have some damn pride.  And shame on the writers for even entertaining this possibility.  It's disgusting and a big turn off.

 

To be fair to Laurel (good lord, did I just type that?!), I think Oliver deserves a hefty share of the blame for the gross sister swapping, not just Laurel or Sara. Other than that, though, I agree with your post wholeheartedly! 

[quarks]

And, you know, not that I mind blackmailing this particular DA's office, because they are easily the most incompetent group on this show except now arguably the board of directors that let an executive dilute the price of the company stock become its CEO, but having Laurel on one hand be this person who is so forgiving that she can hug the ex-boyfriend who has, let us be fair, treated her like complete crap, and on the other hand blackmailing her boss, is just not working for me. 

[catrox14]

Laurel is still the worst.  IMO, she isn't in love with Oliver, she is in the love with idea of the Arrow.  And now Oliver is just the best because he's the Arrow? WTF ever writers.  I hated that hugging scene so much. My unfounded speculation is that all the shit Laurel said about Sarah stealing her life is still in her mind and her heart. I think she doesn't think she is as good as Sarah and I think she envies her being a Hero too.  Or at least, I hope that's how it goes. 

That smile on her face when she got her way with the DA was kind of smug and slightly sinister so as for her being a good girl now.  I don't buy it.

Edited April 18, 2014 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

IMO, she isn't in love with Oliver, she is in the love with idea of the Arrow.  And now Oliver is just the best because he's the Arrow? WTF ever writers.  I hated that hugging scene so much.

 

This is exactly what I picked up.  Laurel was OVER Oliver as any kind of potential love interest.  She wouldn't be bothered to keep him as a friend if not for her sister.  Friendly with history but no real connection.  They "tried" last year and it crashed and burned big time and honestly, neither seemed upset that they weren't together in the least. 

Suddenly Oliver is special and she knows, so she wants to be part of something special.  It feels like Laurel is glomming onto Oliver not because of any real feelings but because she has this built up fantasy about being a part of something special just like she didn't really know Ollie when she was fantasizing about living happily ever after when they moved in together.  She's off connecting dots to her wedding day and Oliver is so freaked that he runs off with her sister. 

It just feels fake and icky and unearned.    

[writersblock51]

To be fair to Laurel (good lord, did I just type that?!), I think Oliver deserves a hefty share of the blame for the gross sister swapping, not just Laurel or Sara. Other than that, though, I agree with your post wholeheartedly! 

No worries, MsTaken, my utter disgust at the Sister-Swapping Story is spread out among all the characters but - more to the point - the EPs and the writers who think this lazy and repulsive storyline (and characterizations) is entertaining.

[CabotCove]

Yes, this!  I thought it really stood out and felt extra icky.  I also was disgusted that now that Laurel knows Oliver's secret, he is really important to her.  That's really not the emotion I was picking up prior to her knowledge.  I really wanted her to show the same sudden love to her sister, but no, Laurel seems fine with Oliver, but Sara, she's holding back still.

 

Maybe she wishes she was the one at the back of that bike as Canary.

When you put it that way, yeah it strange that Oliver & Sara have similar circumstances, she has scars too, has saved Laurel multiple times and has been keeping the city safe too but Laurel is only concerned about showing gratitude and support to Oliver/Arrow not her own sister!!. And we are supposed to believe Saint Laurel really cares about her sister. 

Sara gets the "Two people closest to you are the ones who lie to you the most" speech while Oliver gets the hugs and "you are important" to me speeches

[Zalyn]

There is a definite problem of legitimacy for Laurel on the show, and this last episode emphasized it. 

For example, as writersblock51 said:

As of today, she knows Oliver's secret because someone else told her after she had ample opportunity to figure it out herself. 

She has her old job back in the DA's office because she blackmailed the DA to re-hire her. 

She doesn't actually seem to work since she inexplicably showed up at various points around Starling City.  But all that she accomplished was to get her father released via questionable techniques.

Additionally, even her decision to hug Oliver and accept him was not her decision - she agreed with what her dad told her (awesomely, because he's awesome). So that entire arc from discovery of Arrow/Oliver to accepting him wasn't hers; it was her mirroring or responding to other people's agency.  It's hard for me to connect with her because of this; she's not a person, she's an effect.

[catrox14]

 

Additionally, even her decision to hug Oliver and accept him was not her decision - she agreed with what her dad told her (awesomely, because he's awesome). So that entire arc from discovery of Arrow/Oliver to accepting him wasn't hers; it was her mirroring or responding to other people's agency.  It's hard for me to connect with her because of this; she's not a person, she's an effect.

Maybe I'm not following what you mean here, but I'm not sure I believe that this isn't Laurel's agency.  She's had choices all along to not drink, to not take pills, to forgive Oliver/Sara or not, to blackmail the DA or not so for me her decision to not tell about Oliver is just another choice she's making. She might be influenced by her father's words but in the end it's still her decision. No one is actively making her not do it.  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

[quarks]

To me it seems as if Laurel this season is almost always a reactor, instead of an actor. Which in turn forces the plot to give her something to react to.

For example, in this latest episode:

1. Laurel starts by reacting to Slade's revelation, instead of investigating the Arrow on her own.

2. Then she ends up at the jail not because she's investigating something, but because her father is there.

3. Then she ends up at the hospital because the plot needs her to find out that Sara has scars on her back, not because she has another reason to go to the hospital or because she's checking stuff out, which could only happen if the plot broke several straight episodes of showing Team Arrow patching one another up with minor injuries and even some of Oliver's graver issues so that Laurel could react.

4. Then she follows Sara/Oliver around, not helping with the plot.

5. Then she interrupts Oliver as he's trying to deal with Slade and Thea. This is her first direct action, not reaction, in the plot, and unfortunately, it serves to stop the action dead. Worse, because the writers decided to turn this into a Big Damn Speech, either to prepare us for Laurel's death or to move her back into the love interest spot (which, ow), she doesn't even get to say the important part.

6. Then she heads out to the jail, reacting to her sister's phone call which was reacting to her father getting beaten up. Her father tells her not to reveal the Arrow's identity.

7. So in the end, she reacts to her father's speech by going and hugging Oliver. 

I'm actually happier that she hugged Oliver instead of going to the police or anything like that, BUT, and this is a huge but, this wasn't her original decision. Her plan was to tell the Arrow that she knew his identity, and also tell her father, presumably to set him free from jail. When, as the show demonstrated about two minutes later, she had other options, like blackmail.

So in the end her only real action, as opposed to just responding to everything else, was to blackmail her boss. Which I think was meant to make her kinda badass, which in turn made the final hug that much odder - because, really, are women who blackmail their bosses likely to go and give their ex boyfriends comforting hugs? 

Edited April 19, 2014 by quarks

[lovemytvshows]

Quick question...

Has there ever been a tv show where a character was so loathed by the fans (just the fans not the producers) that the producers ended up killing them off or writing them out? And if so, will the Arrow producers have the b*lls to do it to our very own Laurel Lance?

[KirkB]

I watched several episodes of Supernatural today which had Katie Cassidy as Ruby (a fact I was unaware of until fairly recently, as I hadn't seen them since I started to watch Arrow) and I have to ask...what happened? Putting aside whether you think her acting there was any good, Ruby was a lot more action oriented and emotive in a couple of scenes than Laurel has been in a season and a half. I don't think it's just KC, unless she is deliberately playing Laurel cold and distant, but I also don't think it's just the directors or the writers since they seem to do okay in scenes with the other characters. Unless someone in the production office really doesn't like Laurel and is trying to get rid of her.

[catrox14]

Supernatural got rid of a couple of female characters because they were loathed by the audience.

[Mars477]

Doesn't Supernatural get rid of all of its female characters?

I'd rather they not follow that path here.

[catrox14]

No they haven't killed off all the female characters.  I was just citing a case of two characters the audience outright hated and made it known.  

[Danny Franks]

Quick question...

Has there ever been a tv show where a character was so loathed by the fans (just the fans not the producers) that the producers ended up killing them off or writing them out? And if so, will the Arrow producers have the b*lls to do it to our very own Laurel Lance?

I feel like there must be, but I guess producers never reveal their reasoning so baldly. Mandy was pretty unpopular in the West Wing, and just disappeared somewhere between the finale of season 1 and the opener of season 2. Which would be fine, except they followed on directly from one another.

What about Riley in Buffy? I felt he was deeply unpopular, and he really didn't get a very respectful send off.

But both of those two happened in the nascent days of the internet, really. Not so much fan activism. Perhaps Shaw in Chuck, but it wasn't so much his character as everything that his character forced the show to be, and he was always going to be a temporary presence anyway. I think fan reaction pushed them to get rid of him sooner than they planned.

Laurel? Well it's not even really dislike for me any more. I think dislike would suggest some sort of reaction to her, but I just feel utter, utter disinterest. Like Coulson in Agents of SHIELD, she is just an anti-presence on my screen. Her mere appearance just kills my interest and makes me think about doing things other than watching the show. So I guess that's frustrating in itself, because I like most of the other stuff on this show.

[Zalyn]

To me it seems as if Laurel this season is almost always a reactor, instead of an actor. Which in turn forces the plot to give her something to react to.

[snip]

So in the end her only real action, as opposed to just responding to everything else, was to blackmail her boss. Which I think was meant to make her kinda badass, which in turn made the final hug that much odder - because, really, are women who blackmail their bosses likely to go and give their ex boyfriends comforting hugs? 

That's exactly the feeling I've had about Laurel.  In her defense, even "dark" blackmailers need hugs...

Quick question...

Has there ever been a tv show where a character was so loathed by the fans (just the fans not the producers) that the producers ended up killing them off or writing them out? And if so, will the Arrow producers have the b*lls to do it to our very own Laurel Lance?

The first character who comes to mind is Lauren Reed from Alias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Reed).%C2'> The fans HATED her.  She was set up in all the wrong ways - unlikeable, powerful daddy, boyfriend stealer, snooty to the heroine - and so they gave up and made her into a villain.  She then got to make out with David Anders and be Evil McEvilPants for an arc, so it couldn't have been that bad. 

One thing I've noticed is that fans have had more influence on the development and progression of shows in recent years; I feel that the Alias case was a result of vocal fan feedback through sites like TWoP.  Earlier shows, like Buffy would probably have been very different in such a climate; Riley wasn't popular, sure. But I don't think he was meant to stick around.  Dawn, on the other hand, would have been 86'd really early on because she started out so annoying. 

This is why I'm really trying to be measured about my criticisms of the Laurel character.  It's been very easy for fans to contribute to an overall feeling of loathing for a particular character (and those characters tend to be female - a troubling symptom), and the reaction to nix them is much faster now than before.  I think it's great for fans to have input on shows, but the shows should also be allowed to develop creatively lest all good showrunners get discouraged and quit because they can't write their shows.

As to whether the Arrow people will do it - the problem is that they're trapped by canon.  And so to get rid of Laurel permanently would mean having to take a pretty big stand and throw canon out the window on that.  I'm not sure if they will take that risk so boldly.

[quarks]

Has there ever been a tv show where a character was so loathed by the fans (just the fans not the producers) that the producers ended up killing them off or writing them out?

 

Yes. 

(Hopefully everyone will forgive me going slightly off topic here.)

The most famous example is arguably Nikki and Paolo on Lost, who were killed off in one season because of fan hatred. There were some rumors at the time that this was also the case with Ana Lucia, but I've also heard that was more because of actress/producer conflict. Nikki and Paolo, though, were definitely fan hatred, as per the producers. That was also true for a replacement character in Designing Women who was absolutely hated by everyone and written out after one season - as per the producers. I can't even remember her name, but I caught one episode with her and wow was she annoying.  And then the show really died. Declan Porter on Revenge is another example. 

Other cases tend to be more rumors - Frank Burns on M.A.S.H., for example; I don't think that anyone has verified that, and Nikki on Heroes - I heard a lot of fans say she died because of fan hatred but I don't think the producers ever verified this. Riley was reportedly supposed to stick around Buffy for longer, but didn't because of tepid fan response.  Then the show kept the not particularly popular Dawn around and killed off the popular Tara, so... Agravaine on Merlin popped up in Season Four, was hated by everyone, and then didn't return in Season Five, but again I don't know for a fact if that was fan response.   And reportedly Jeffrey Spender on X-Files was killed off because of fan hatred, except that he was then brought back, so bad example.

And of course, as with the Ana-Maria example, it's not always clear if the character was killed off/written off because of fan response or because of some problem on the set.

But it's been done. Whether or not it will be done on this show, I have no idea.

[Morrigan2575]

Pretty sure Andrea on The Walking Dead was a direct result of fan hatred although that's never been confirmed. That also is a direct deviation from canon, as Andrea is a major character that's still alive in the comics and I'm pretty sure the show just moved Michone into Andrea's spot as they're building up Rick/Michone on the show but the comics went Rick/Andrea.

[catrox14]

I don't know about Andrea per se, only because the show has deviated from the comics with many characters. So that one is a little harder to pinpoint as purely fan driven. 

I'd be surprised if the Arrow PTB get rid of any particular character purely based on fan criticism  unless the ratings really tank and it can be proven in some way to be directly because of X character. So at this point,  I enjoy Arrow in spite of Laurel's presence because so many other things are so wonderful about it.  The only thing I ask is that she never becomes Black Canary.  But I have a bad feeling that is the end game still for TPTB. I hope I'm wrong.

[KirkB]

I do too but they probably will, unless they are planning to really deviate from canon.

[Carrie Ann]

I think this is kind of a chicken and egg question, because a lot of times characters are hated because they are poorly conceived, poorly portrayed or both. So I think "fans" get credit for a character getting the axe when the writers and producers probably share the feeling, and take the necessary measures. I know there are Laurel fans in the Arrow writers/producers group, but I also have strong suspicions that they've already changed their original plans for her and that they will continue to do so as necessary. I think they'll try everything they can first, but at some point if she's just not working, I do think they would get rid of her, canon or no. There are plenty of canon characters who don't appear on the show. I see no reason to keep her just because she was in the Green Arrow universe. 

[Lisin]

Hey guys, I've created a Hated Character Topic over in Everything Else TV for this discussion because I DO think it's super interesting but I'd like it if this topic could get back to the discussion of Laurel. I'm leaving the posts here because I don't want to split the discussion up and most are about both Laurel and the off topic discussion but please lets keep this thread on topic. Thanks! 

[Sakura12]

They spent a lot of time on the Lance family drama so when they have a chance to actually have the sisters have a conversation that would make sense, they have Laurel go see and hug her ex boyfriend that her sister is currently dating. They had the dumbest set up for her to find about her sister's scars, then they go nowhere with it. If I saw my sister with a bunch of scars like that I would've ran and hugged her, then kept asking what happened to her and if she was okay. 

I actually want to know where Laurel though Sara's been all these years, if it was so shocking to see her injuries.She obviously didn't forget that Sara was in the same shipwreck as Oliver. Does she think Sara drifted to a Caribbean resort and was sipping drinks on the beach for six years?

I'm also wondering what Laurel thinks about Oliver telling Sara about his secret identity and then not only that Sara joined him in his crime fighting. 

Has there ever been a tv show where a character was so loathed by the fans (just the fans not the producers) that the producers ended up killing them off or writing them out?

Andrea from the Walking Dead, she was exactly like Laurel. The producers kept saying she was awesome but what was shown on screen was not awesome, they said she was going to get better, then she got worse. They thought people would like her storyline but no on really did, then the killed her off I guess because they couldn't think of anything else do with her.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm confused about what Laurel thinks Sara was doing for five years too. I honestly thought she knew at the very least that Sara had been in the League of Assassins, even if she didn't know it was called that or whatever. Why did she think their mother had been kidnapped, if she didn't know that it was a group out to get Sara? Were they just like, "Oh, we got your mom back and look who we found along the way!"

[quarks]

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't Laurel specifically blame Sara for bringing a group of assassins into Starling City and getting their mother kidnapped, right before she threw that glass of wine?

Plus, during Birds of Prey I vaguely recall Laurel saying something about Sara going through a really hard time.  And she saw Oliver's scars at least twice last season. 

So, really, seeing her sister with scars shouldn't have been huge news.  The vigilante part, sure, but the rest, no.

[Carrie Ann]

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy when Laurel didn't know Sara was the Canary a few episodes ago. I just assumed she knew because she knew about the assassin stuff, so I figured, what's one more thing? And yeah, she slept with Oliver last year, and saw his scars before that, so why she thought Sara was just on some vacation on Assassin Island is beyond me.