Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[slayer2]

I would have liked Laurel as a cop and the martial arts training would make more sense that way. She'd be much more able to defend herself and much less likely used as leverage in hostage situations.

[TanyaKay]

I can't claim to be the originator of this idea (I think someone here suggested it first), but lately I've been thinking about McKenna Hall, and how she is what the character of Laurel should have been (without the part about being shipped out of town of course). What do you all think? What if they'd dropped the toxic backstory and the dull lawyer bit and just had Laurel as a cop on the force who was chasing the Arrow? How do you think that would have worked?

 

 

Honestly, I don't have as much of a problem with Laurel Lance as I have with Katie Cassidy and her acting choices. I mean they have given some terrible material to Willah Holland and she was supposed to act all entitled and bitchy in the first season before she met Roy Harper but Willa did a pretty decent job with whatever material she was handed and no one I know hated her with the same gusto as they hate Laurel. So in my opinion, Laurel would have sucked no matter what role she was given because Katie Cassidy's one singular expression (She saw Ollie's scarred body, same expression, Tommy died, same expression, mother thought Sara was alive same expression, defending poor people in court same expression) would have ruined it and she would have come across as the same entitled and rude person as she does as a lawyer - I mean they did change her character quite a bit in two seasons - from CNRI to DA's office and no one liked her any better.

[poetgirl925]

Cop probably would have worked better by involving her in the plot in a more organic way. They also could have established her as a better fighter or having studied martial arts. I liked the lawyer in the Glades bit until I got bored with it (didn't take long.) They never really showed her being an effective lawyer, and involving the vigilante almost ensured she couldn't be effective on her own. We saw her holding a lot of files as props but any legal conversations were nearly all unbelievable. I suppose they also could have started off with her as a prosecutor but it's only interesting if we see her doing something with that position. I'm not counting prosecuting your ex-boyfriend's mother in a capital murder trial either.

One way they could have altered the backstory is by having Sara mixed up with Oliver in the past but not Laurel. If the Lance family blamed him for getting Sara in trouble, etc. then there still could have been tension without the major ick factor and bitterness I got from the pilot alone. Dating your dead sister's boyfriend/fwb is still a little creepy but not nearly as bad as what they came up with. They would have needed to rethink what happened when Sara came back as well. I just can't buy Laurel getting over all of what went down, past and present, the way they showed it to us. Forgiveness is one thing and being someone's doormat is another. I'm not sure I've ever seen such an inconsistent character before.

Edited July 21, 2014 by poetgirl925

[dtissagirl]

I think they could even keep her being a lawyer, what kneecaps Laurel is the icky backstory. When she's saying the ridiculous "I know you in my bones" lines, the audience is going SERIAL CHEATER WHO SLEPT WITH YOUR SISTER AND HAS A SECRET KID WITH OTHER RANDO CHICK WHO IS NOT YOU. OH, AND HE ALSO HAS BEEN LYING TO YOUR FACE FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS ABOUT WHO HE REALLY IS. In all caps too. It makes no rational sense for her reaction to be "I always knew you had it in you to be a hero" because we never ever saw Laurel seeing the best in Oliver. Not in flashbacks, not in the 2 years he's been back. He was lying to her in the flashbacks AND in the present.

If she had met Oliver in the pilot, and they played the love interest storyline as a triangle-for-two -- Laurel not being impressed that playboy billionaire Oliver Queen survived the island [while everyone else did], but hero-crushing on The Hood... It's Lois & Clark, but it works. Or if Laurel/Oliver had known each other pre-Gambit, but had never been together, Sara could still have gone with him, and it could be angsty with Laurel blaming Oliver for the death, but without the icky sister-swapping.

Someone has mentioned this already, but It really looks like the writers thought nobody would care much about the cheating with the sister thing... and now it's 46 episodes later and it's still making LAUREL look bad. I mean, of all the people involved, you'd think she'd be the one the audience would root for, all things considered. But that backstory makes Laurel's actions in the present look completely bizare [why does she still want Oliver? why is she so quick to accept Sara and Oliver dating? Why does she want the magic jacket?], and audiences tend to hate characters that don't make sense.

[slayer2]

 

One way they could have altered the backstory is by having Sara mixed up with Oliver in the past but not Laurel. If the Lance family blamed him for getting Sara in trouble, etc. then there still could have been tension without the major ick factor and bitterness I got from the pilot alone.

This. It's a much less ludicrous, bizarre turn of events. CW doesn't put a lot of stock in sisters before misters and I know that but the way it's written now is crazy. A little sister swapping, fine, but for her to want him after Sara hooked up with him AGAIN. C'mon y'all, we have our pride, you know and it's not like she's some troll. She's a good-looking broad, there are other men out there.

Edited July 21, 2014 by slayer2

[CabotCove]

I want the Laurel that wanted to help people and did everything she could to do so, the Laurel that reassured Tommy with smiles and pizza when he was cut-off, the Laurel that worked with the Arrow to stop the cities criminals. I want THAT Laurel back, I don't want to see her as the butt of Team Arrow's jokes or just another thing they have to worry about like *eyeroll "Here comes Laurel again". Why should she look drunk and stupid just to wipe out her as a potential love interest for Ollie and pave the way for Sara and/or Felicity. There are other ways to do that, people move on and grow apart, there's no reason Laurel has to look like an incompetent lush to Felicity's competent savvy "perfect" everything. There's room for everybody on this canvas (even Thea). /END RANT

 

They were better at writing the character in season 1, then they got worse in season 2. I dont really think they care as much as they did back then, i doubt they could ever go back to that level. Sure I do think that Sara and Felicity have had some direct impact on how the show writes and cares for the character of Laurel. But its something that could have been avoided had they planned the character and really cast well Imo. If they are not careful they will repeat the same thing over at the Flash with iris. 

 

It's definitely a "mileage may vary" situation, but, ironically, I thought KC had some of her best scenes of the season with Caity Lotz, when she wasn't hurling glasses that is.

 

Well I have to admit, I did see some good interactions between the two. Which surprised me because of the bad history between the two sisters and considering how things might be intense between the two actors over this Black Canary thing. Of all people ironically I thought CL was one of the very few people KC works well with. I did like the flashback scene with the two, they felt like real siblings. 

 

What if they'd dropped the toxic backstory and the dull lawyer bit and just had Laurel as a cop on the force who was chasing the Arrow? How do you think that would have worked?

 

Yup, I do think it would have given the character a more proactive role, given her more chance to have an interesting chemistry and dynamic with Arrow/lead, so would have worked better. I dont mind her being a lawyer much, they just didnt do much with it. 

 

CW doesn't put a lot of stock in sisters before misters and I know that but the way it's written now is crazy.

 

lol, Im gonna be using that from now on. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Conell

[poetgirl925]

Someone has mentioned this already, but It really looks like the writers thought nobody would care much about the cheating with the sister thing... and now it's 46 episodes later and it's still making LAUREL look bad. I mean, of all the people involved, you'd think she'd be the one the audience would root for, all things considered. But that backstory makes Laurel's actions in the present look completely bizare [why does she still want Oliver? why is she so quick to accept Sara and Oliver dating? Why does she want the magic jacket?], and audiences tend to hate characters that don't make sense.

I think if they would just drop this "I know you so well" nonsense it would go a long way towards improving the character. The backstory makes everyone involved unlikeable but every time they force Laurel into emotional scenes with Oliver, it is bizarre. Having her jump from Tommy to Oliver at the first opportunity made her look fickle. Having her insist she knows Oliver so well despite knowing he totally fooled her in the past and despite the fact they have not spent much time together in the two years since he returned, just makes her look stupid. Forcing her into giving relationship advice to Sara and Oliver made her look more like a doormat than a forgiving person. And if they push the relationship with Oliver back into romantic territory, we're back to bizarre and unbelievable. Maybe I can't understand what it's like to be a vigilante, but I know what it's like to be a woman. Laurel as a woman should have been the first thing I believed in and empathized with, but now I've reached a point where I kind of don't care.

[Sakura12]

It probably would've looked better if it was Sara that Oliver was dating the whole time and Laurel and Quentin hated him, then the fateful boat accident happened where Oliver got her killed, he comes back to them still hating him. Laurel slowly comes around to seeing that he's changed and starts to fall for him while she's dating Tommy but doesn't act on it. So they'd have the will they/won't they thing. I guess if they still needed Tommy to die, that wouldn't have prevented Laurel from being an idiot and running to the Glades to save a filing cabinet.  

 

Then she would've been happy to see her little sister was alive and be upset about the not telling her part and not for stealing her life. We maybe could've had some more sister bonding from that. 

 

And even if Oliver and Sara hooked up again when she came back wouldn't be as bad being they were the ones that were together before and spent some time in hell together. Laurel would still be hurt because she fell for Oliver while her sister was "dead". She could then be the supportive older sister and not have it look completely out of place or make her look like a doormat. 

 

But then again that all depends on Cassidy being able to portray all that which is whole other issue. Because all I've seen from her in 46 episodes is condescending brat. I don't even know if she's capable of playing a warm, compassionate person. 

[slayer2]

Sakura I feel like you might be a bit biased 'cause you hate Laurel so much.  I admit I found her acting choices a bit odd in season 2 and certainly compared to all I know she can do. I barely recognized her in the middle of the season, she had lost the life and vitality I was used to and at times seemed to be phoning it in which I've never seen her do before. I assure you however, KC is very much capable of that of warmth and heart and likeability and I did see some of that in Season 1 as well.

I keep telling y'all to watch Melrose Place but y'all won't believe me. The only reason it got cancelled was because they centred it around the most boring couple in the world. If they put more focus on Ella Sims (played by KC) and less on waffling, boring Jonah and Riley then I would probably have my show still. I miss it and the shoes, every.damn.day.

Edited July 22, 2014 by slayer2

[Sakura12]

I found season 1 Laurel boring and useless so Cassidy's acting did nothing to impress me then. I did watch a few episodes of New Melrose Place when it was on and nobody there impressed me enough to keep watching. I did like her on Supernatural but that was in a minor role and she was playing the only role she seems to be good at playing which is a bitch. So I have not seen her play warm and compassionate, even when given the chance to on Arrow. 

[BkWurm1]

As a Laurel fan all of these things don't breed much hope, but I try to stay positive about it because it seems like they're going for a more balanced approach to the show. I just want to watch all these characters (with the exception of Thea) fully fleshed out without propping or diminishing one another. I'd like to see Laurel on screen in a way that's powerful, self-possessed and strong like she was in season 1.

I want the Laurel that wanted to help people and did everything she could to do so, the Laurel that reassured Tommy with smiles and pizza when he was cut-off, the Laurel that worked with the Arrow to stop the cities criminals. I want THAT Laurel back, I don't want to see her as the butt of Team Arrow's jokes or just another thing they have to worry about like *eyeroll "Here comes Laurel again". Why should she look drunk and stupid just to wipe out her as a potential love interest for Ollie and pave the way for Sara and/or Felicity. There are other ways to do that, people move on and grow apart, there's no reason Laurel has to look like an incompetent lush to Felicity's competent savvy "perfect" everything. There's room for everybody on this canvas (even Thea). /END RANT

It's just frustrating for me as one of the few people who love this character, I want to see my favourites do well and if not well then like Faith on Buffy I want to see logical, chronological and measured reasons for why they aren't doing well, not just see them used as a plot device (which they've been used for a million times over.) *sigh

 

My concerns arise because even though I think most of season 2 had Laurel, well, a mess, the season ended with her sitting pretty.  Rising star at the DA's office, great relationship with her family, in the know about the Arrow, handed a jacket that suggests she's becoming a super hero.  She is doing well, very well, but I don't think we saw her earning her good things so it feels like it doesn't matter what we see on screen. 

 

Drawing again from the poisoned well of Smallville, nothing I saw on screen for four years really worried me about Lois taking over Chloe's place as the reporter on the show even when they hired Lois at the DP and even when they had Chloe get fired from the DP.  I thought character and history would rule, but I was wrong.  Season eight came along and suddenly Lois was now the ace reporter too important to even consider firing when at the end of the prior season they hadn't even bothered to have shown her to have an article published. 

 

It taught me that show runners don't care about what they've shown or done on screen.  If they want to  hand something to a character, they don't need any more motivation than a name.  

 

I don't want Laurel to go away, but I'd really like to know what this big master plan for her is going to be.   I'd prefer she gets to whatever it is in a organic and reasonable manner, but I just want to know so I can stop waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

My concerns arise because even though I think most of season 2 had Laurel, well, a mess, the season ended with her sitting pretty.  Rising star at the DA's office, great relationship with her family, in the know about the Arrow, handed a jacket that suggests she's becoming a super hero.  She is doing well, very well, but I don't think we saw her earning her good things so it feels like it doesn't matter what we see on screen. 

That's a big problem for me, so much of what Laurel gets is unearned, including screentime.  No way should she have been the one prosecuting Moira, and I will cry foul if she's even ADA next season.  KC's acting choices is another problem. 

 

In terms of the sister swapping, I know that there are cultures where, when a man dies, his brother marries the widow and takes her and the children into his family to take care of them.   It's the back and forth that gets me.  Oliver was a douche for sleeping with Sara in the past but that was the past so I can see why he'd want to sleep with "the love of his life" Laurel again.  But when he got together with Sara in s2, that was it for me.  No more sleeping with Laurel, at least not for another 40 years and after Sara is dead.

[Sakura12]

My concerns arise because even though I think most of season 2 had Laurel, well, a mess, the season ended with her sitting pretty.  Rising star at the DA's office, great relationship with her family, in the know about the Arrow, handed a jacket that suggests she's becoming a super hero.  She is doing well, very well, but I don't think we saw her earning her good things so it feels like it doesn't matter what we see on screen. 

 

That is my biggest concern with Laurel as well. Nothing is earned with her through the storytelling, she's just handed things and faces no lasting consequences for her actions. Because comics doesn't work for me. I'm watching this tv show not reading the comics that were written before it. 

 

Yes, I'm biased because I hate Laurel (more than Lana at this point) I don't watch a show to wait 2 whole seasons for a character to become something. She should've been something by the time season 1 ended. Not a hero or anything, just a character that mattered to the overall plot. Cassidy hasn't made me care about Laurel. I can't put that all on the writers, it's her job to put life into Laurel. Alison Mack on Smallville was given crappy storylines and inconsistent writing all the time, but she still managed to make me care about Chloe and root for her. 

[pootlus]

I think if they would just drop this "I know you so well" nonsense it would go a long way towards improving the character.

 

Agreed - they had a great opportunity when Slade told Laurel Oliver was the Arrow.  The "I know you in my bones" bullshit in the Arrowcave could have been, instead, "I've known you most of my life, but it looks like I don't actually know you at all" and start the Laurel/Oliver relationship from, effectively, scratch.

 

It's just making Laurel look stupid and a doormat at this point - something that's only going to get worse in S3.  They need to have Laurel acknowledge that Oliver repeatedly and frequently cheated on her, hopefully resulting in her admission that she doesn't know or understand him, and closing the door on any possibility for a romantic relationship.  It's the only thing I can see that will free Laurel up to actually be a semi-decent character.  Then they just need to address the writing and acting, heh.

[quarks]

@slayer - I agree with you that I have often felt that someone on the writing staff hates Laurel, perhaps several someones. Where we disagree is whether or not Laurel was a strong character in season one. I think she SHOULD have been. She was presented as passionate, intelligent, determined, hard working - all very admirable, strong qualities and something that ordinarily would have made me go YAY. But unfortunately, this kept getting undercut by the way the very concept of the show did not and could not let her succeed; every one of her professional triumphs came about because of Oliver or (in the case of the fundraising) Tommy.

Some of this, as I've said elsewhere, could have been salvaged by a couple of quick lines of dialogue - "Wow, great work on that Rogers case, Laurel!" But we never got that dialogue. Instead, we saw a professional woman who always needed a man's help to solve her court cases, who was frequently kidnapped and damseled, and in one case tossed police evidence off to a younger woman to solve.

Very frustrating for me as a viewer. What kept me on the show was Moira, and later, Felicity.

Edited July 22, 2014 by quarks

[wonderwall]

I honestly hate it when people bring up KCs acting ability in other roles. If she can play someone badass, with personality, with a sense of warmth then why don't we see it on the show? I've honestly seen this defense so many times and I've seen KC in various other roles and I agree that she can do all of this, but that doesn't matter nor should it count. It's like saying I shot a 3 pointer during warmups but couldn't during the game. Warmups don't matter, the game does.

 

Currently, KC isn't cutting it, and that's a problem. If she can do better, then why don't we see her do better? Certainly she's seen all the criticisms of her character and tried to change the way she portrays Laurel and emote a little better, but we haven't. So... Yeah, it doesn't seem as though KC will change the way she acts Laurel.

 

This isn't Gossip GIrl, Melrose Place, or whatever she was in before... This is Arrow. The fact that she's acted better in other shows doesn't paint her in a positive light. It just makes her look lazy and makes it seem like she doesn't connect with the character well which is even worse. 

[KirkB]

From the pilot I liked Oliver. I liked Diggle. I liked Moira and Thea. I liked Tommy. I liked Quentin. As the season wore on I quickly grew to like Felicity and in my eyes John Barrowman can do no wrong so Malcolm was an easy like. I didn't like Laurel, however. I didn't hate her, as many people do here, I just...didn't care. By the time of season 2 Laurel went from being a blank character I ignored to having a negative impact in that she seemed to suck the energy out of scenes, but I still didn't care enough about Laurel to get upset or even annoyed. Show runners want you to love or hate their characters, they generally don't care which as long as they get an emotional response about of us. I'm pretty sure ambivalence isn't what they are shooting for but for me they have achieved it with Laurel.

[BkWurm1]

I wonder if a fan base being apathetic would be a more powerful message in the eyes of the show runners.   

Edited July 22, 2014 by BkWurm1

[slayer2]

I honestly hate it when people bring up KCs acting ability in other roles. If she can play someone badass, with personality, with a sense of warmth then why don't we see it on the show?

This is where I diverge because I do see it on the show. I don't see this dreadful actress everyone is talking about. I see dreadful writing and I definitely see an entirely different character than Ella Sims or Ruby or whoever she played on Gossip Girl or the girl who died in Nightmare on Elm st. I've seen her in about 5 other things as well as this, and I think she can act in every one of them, including this. I think there were a few WTF scenes in season 2, like the drunken/poisoned one but out of all the screen time I've spent on her comparatively it's a very small fraction. I remember a lot of people hating her on Supernatural but I reckon just about every woman on the show was hated especially Jared Padalecki's wife who took over the role. To me KC is still a killer actress, I tend to think the entire cast is great although there are some characters that bug me, my problems aren't with the actors.

Sakura If you didn't dig the first Melrose then you probably won't be down with this one but if you were into it then I urge you to give the show another shot. There are some really loveable characters and relationships in there (including Ella and Lauren's friendship) and some crazy eyed Ashlee Simpson to enjoy as well.

Edited July 22, 2014 by slayer2

[wonderwall]

@slayer2, no but that's what I'm talking about. Especially the last sentence. It's not that KC is a terrible actress, it's that she doesn't belong on Arrow which is shown by her poor acting choices for Laurel, and this is simply because she doesn't understand Laurel nor does she strive to even try to understand Laurel. That's her failure as an actress for this role. This lack of connection between Laurel and KC might partly be the writers fault for not writing her consistently (although I still maintain and argue that she's consistently been written to be more of an antagonist), but it's also KCs fault for not going the extra mile and at least trying to make Laurel look sympathetic just as Susanna, Willa, and Stephen have with their characters. This can be seen through various interviews of hers where it's blatantly obvious she doesn't understand Laurel and only has a superficial view of her (where she only talks about Laurel becoming BC, her role in team arrow, how she works out a lot, how Oliver is the love of her life, and how she's a 'good-doer' but doesn't delve into why she's done terrible things this past season etc.) It's through these interviews that you can see that KC has failed as an actress for this role. She might've been marvelous as Ruby, but man, did she fail Laurel (as well as the writers).

 

And to be quite frank, it's great that you see KCs supposed nuances when it comes to acting Laurel, but you're most probably in the minority (at least the minority of the internet fandom). You might see it, but the majority don't. This in itself is a problem. Right now I just feel like the people who are fans of Laurel, are KC fans and diehard comic book purists... :/

Edited July 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[poetgirl925]

@slayer2, no but that's what I'm talking about. Especially the last sentence. It's not that KC is a terrible actress, it's that she doesn't belong on Arrow which is shown by her poor acting choices for Laurel, and this is simply because she doesn't understand Laurel nor does she strive to even try to understand Laurel. That's her failure as an actress for this role. This lack of connection between Laurel and KC might partly be the writers fault for not writing her consistently (although I still maintain and argue that she's consistently been written to be more of an antagonist), but it's also KCs fault for not going the extra mile and at least trying to make Laurel look sympathetic just as Susanna, Willa, and Stephen have with their characters. This can be seen through various interviews of hers where it's blatantly obvious she doesn't understand Laurel and only has a superficial view of her (where she only talks about Laurel becoming BC, her role in team arrow, how she works out a lot, how Oliver is the love of her life, and how she's a 'good-doer' but doesn't delve into why she's done terrible things this past season etc.) It's through these interviews that you can see that KC has failed as an actress for this role. She might've been marvelous as Ruby, but man, did she fail Laurel (as well as the writers)

She said Laurel is a good-doer? Well. Okay then. The backstory is crippling Laurel but I kind of think the producers and KC's view of the character is also a big part of the problem. What I get from most interviews I've seen is that she's repeating what she's been told about Laurel. There is a disconnect between what she and the producers tell us about Laurel and how we see her story unfolding. The producers just don't seem willing to admit they've made a total mess of the character. KC's disconnect might come from having the producers and writers talking in one ear and her confusion when she tries to make that line up with the script. I haven't seen her give any clear, good answers to character questions. She was asked about the sibling relationship between Sara and Laurel while in Australia and she rambled all over the place without answering it - how it's hard when a new actress comes on b/c they might be a diva, she mentioned she has sisters IRL, and so on. I don't think she understands the relationship. I really can't blame her b/c neither do I. If that's true, she should have demanded some answers from the writers because in my view that's part of the job of an actor.

I can't judge KC's acting skills as a whole because this is the first role I've seen her in. I saw Click and Taken but didn't even remember her b/c her parts were so tiny. I looked up a few Ruby clips but there wasn't much to that role either and shows like Gossip Girl and Melrose Place don't interest me, and neither do horror movies. It's possible she's better in certain roles, but I should never have to research them in order to like her on this one. What I can say is that based on what I see on my screen in Arrow, the role was miscast. I looked up my episode reviews from S1 and I was saying the same thing early in S1. I couldn't connect with the character and she was irritating me as early as the second episode. This is how I know I'm not biased by Sara or Felicity's influence on the show. Most of my complaints about her acting came in S2 because IMO she was overacting a lot. God, the crying scenes...

I don't know how they can fix it all now. After two seasons I'm pretty firm in my dislike of the character. She seems like that star pupil getting straight As from the teachers when you know it's not deserved because they're cheating. That's how I felt about her getting her job back with blackmail and Sara giving her the jacket. It's unearned and annoying. If everyone would admit she's a seriously flawed character and let KC and the writers run with that then it might be an improvement.

Edited July 22, 2014 by poetgirl925

[tv echo]

I don't think the writers hate Laurel - I think they just don't know what to do with the character.  Actually, I think the writers (or the EPs) went out of their way to write Laurel into the main action at the end of Season 2.  Remember how Laurel got some guy to hack into Blood's database and found the post-dated press release about Moira's death?  That hacking is something that normally would've been done by Felicity.  But Laurel got the scene and that got her into the Arrowcave and Team Arrow to tell Oliver about Blood.  Then that got her following Oliver and to the scenes of her saving Oliver and then shooting an arrow. Etc.  (If Laurel had to be the one to pursue the Blood lead, well Quentin was there too and he knows Felicity is a computer genius.  So why didn't he get Felicity to help them hack into the database?  Because then Felicity would be there when the Blood press release was discovered and she could tell Oliver about Blood's deception, thereby negating the need for Laurel to ever enter the Arrowcave.)

 

I do agree, however, that the Laurel character that was originally described by the EPs ("warm, compassionate lawyer" who works at the CNRI and fights for justice) is not the Laurel character that's coming across on the TV screen - partly due to writing and partly due to acting/casting.

Edited July 22, 2014 by tv echo

[poetgirl925]

I don't think the writers hate Laurel - I think they just don't know what to do with the character.  Actually, I think the writers (or the EPs) went out of their way to write Laurel into the main action at the end of Season 2.  Remember how Laurel got some guy to hack into Blood's database and found the post-dated press release about Moira's death?  That hacking is something that normally would've been done by Felicity.  But Laurel got the scene and that got her into the Arrowcave and Team Arrow to tell Oliver about Blood.  Then that got her following Oliver and to the scenes of her saving Oliver and then shooting an arrow. Etc.  (If Laurel had to be the one to pursue the Blood lead, well Quentin was there too and he knows Felicity is a computer genius.  So why didn't he get Felicity to help them hack into the database?  Because then Felicity would be there when the Blood press release was discovered and she could tell Oliver about Blood's deception, thereby negating the need for Laurel to ever enter the Arrowcave.)

 

I do agree, however, that the Laurel character that was originally described by the EPs ("warm, compassionate lawyer" who works at the CNRI and fights for justice) is not the Laurel character that's coming across on the TV screen - partly due to writing and partly due to acting/casting.

Yes, it's clear they specifically wrote Laurel in with her second investigation into Blood. It even worked a little better than Blind Spot which was just terrible, but they ruined it with her first visit to the Arrowcave. Why would they have her say something like "They're going. Why can't I?" Not the exact words but that's how it came across to me. Now I want her to stay far away from the lair. It's also true that the popularity of Felicity and later Sara eclipsed her role, but that was just a symptom of the problem. If Laurel had been working as a character, a couple of guest stars, one of whom was only supposed to be in one episode, wouldn't have made such an impact on the audience. At least the producers were smart enough to recognize what was working.

[KenyaJ]

Yes, it's clear they specifically wrote Laurel in with her second investigation into Blood. It even worked a little better than Blind Spot which was just terrible, but they ruined it with her first visit to the Arrowcave. Why would they have her say something like "They're going. Why can't I?" Not the exact words but that's how it came across to me. Now I want her to stay far away from the lair. It's also true that the popularity of Felicity and later Sara eclipsed her role, but that was just a symptom of the problem. If Laurel had been working as a character, a couple of guest stars, one of whom was only supposed to be in one episode, wouldn't have made such an impact on the audience. At least the producers were smart enough to recognize what was working.

 

I think those are almost her exact words. Considering she knows that (1) Diggle and Felicity are members of Oliver's team and have been working for a while, and (2) up until a day or two ago, she didn't even know Oliver was the Arrow, it's an idiotic question. But what made it a thousand times worse was the petulant way KC chose to say it. She sounded like a 9 year-old girl asking why she couldn't go hang out with the big kids at the mall. It's the little things like that that made me go from merely not caring about Laurel in S1 to outright detesting her and wanting her off the show in S2. Yes, a lot of problems with this character come down to the Inconsistent way she's written, but I think KC just exacerbates the problems with her acting choices.

[dtissagirl]

It's hilarious that they're re-using the exact same spin from last hiatus AND from mid-S2, and omg I appreciate you guys so much for keeping track AND for posting all of their spin together. :) But I don't think they can say anything else. I was surprised  that they EPs even acknowledged last season that there was a problem with Laurel being so majorly hated.

 

As much as I wish they'd come out and say "yes, we have this character that sucks, and we know everybody hates her, but we're bound by contract AND/OR we're super stubborn, and so we're gonna keep trying twenty-three different possible storylines with her until one of them sticks OR the contract expires OR the network orders us to stop being stubborn", they gotta keep selling their [rotten] fish.

Edited July 22, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

She was asked about the sibling relationship between Sara and Laurel while in Australia and she rambled all over the place without answering it - how it's hard when a new actress comes on b/c they might be a diva, she mentioned she has sisters IRL, and so on. I don't think she understands the relationship. I really can't blame her b/c neither do I. 

 

It seems like a fairly easy relationship to build a story for.  Lauren was the first child and she was beautiful and smart and everyone (especially her parents) told her so.  When Sara came along, she was more easy-going and maybe not as book smart as Laurel. Children learn to take roles in a family that don't overlap and so Laurel became the smart one and Sara the fun one.

 

Laurel grew up believing that she was the special one and Sara was the screw-up and although she was very fond of Sara because she's her sister, she kept believing that she was more special and more entitled to what she wants to get than other people.  When Sara became interested in the guy Laurel considered her property, she fixed it so that Sara was grounded so she could get back together with Oliver again.  Laurel had plans for her life, probably supported all through her growing-up years and when Sara tried to point out that Oliver was not ready for them, and that he wasn't even the guy she thought he was, she attacked Sara ("why can't you be happy for me?") and promptly dismissed it as her sister being jealous of her.  Laurel had to be the prettiest, the smartest, the most important one and she owned Tommy and Oliver.

 

When Sara 'died', Laurel was upset and everyone was very upset for her. Poor Laurel, losing her sister and her boyfriend and finding out she had been betrayed by them.  Everyone felt sorry for her and told her how brave she was.  Her father drowned his sorrows in his work and in a bottle and her mother left him (Laurel was out of the house and in university by this time).  She probably resented Sara for breaking up her family and her mother for leaving and leaving her with a drunk father which is why, when Dinah came with a picture of someone she thought was Sara still alive, Laurel not only crushed the dream, she crushed it in a way that crushed Dinah herself.  Later she showed the same resentment of her father during that family dinner at her place.

 

When Sara came back alive and the focus of her parents' attention, Laurel resented her first for 'dying' and then for being the focus of that attention, both from her parents and Oliver.   It took Oliver abandoning her and AA to open up to Sara as she had when they were kids.

 

Except for how fast Laurel got out of addiction (probably because the writers got bored), I think it holds together pretty well.

I don't think the writers hate Laurel - I think they just don't know what to do with the character.  Actually, I think the writers (or the EPs) went out of their way to write Laurel into the main action at the end of Season 2.  Remember how Laurel got some guy to hack into Blood's database and found the post-dated press release about Moira's death?  That hacking is something that normally would've been done by Felicity.  But Laurel got the scene and that got her into the Arrowcave and Team Arrow to tell Oliver about Blood.  Then that got her following Oliver and to the scenes of her saving Oliver and then shooting an arrow. Etc.  (If Laurel had to be the one to pursue the Blood lead, well Quentin was there too and he knows Felicity is a computer genius.  So why didn't he get Felicity to help them hack into the database?  Because then Felicity would be there when the Blood press release was discovered and she could tell Oliver about Blood's deception, thereby negating the need for Laurel to ever enter the Arrowcave.)

I'd say more than just Felicity and Quentin got cut down to prop Laurel in s2.

 

I don't think the writers hate Laurel. I think the EPs had a plan for Laurel's arc, just as they had for Oliver and Tommy and Moira, but when it was translated from paper to screen, it didn't work. So they went with what was working, which was Diggle and Tommy and Malcolm Merlyn and Moira and later Felicity, and since then they're been trying everything they can to make Laurel work and nothing has so far.

 

Thea was pretty much of a bitch in s1 but Willa Holland make me sympathetic towards her and the writing acknowledge that she was behaving badly.  Maybe the problem is not only that KC doesn't make me feel any sympathy for Laurel but that the writing never acknowledges that she is a bitch. Instead everyone keeps propping her and  saying how wonderful she is while breaking down other characters to push her up.  As far as I know, nothing turns me off a character faster than that. 

[writersblock51]

I can't decide if the writers hate or like Laurel - and I'm not sure we'll ever know.  What professional would admit that anyway?  That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that there has been a consistent (dating back to early in S1) disconnect between what we're told is going to happen with the character and what plays out on screen.  It's a combination of the writing AND the acting, in my opinion.

 

As for her getting some S2 stories that could easily have been done by other, existing characters, I couldn't agree more.  To go a bit back in time, even, she snagged the entire Sebastion Blood Isn't What He Seems from Sin, Roy and Thea.  For all of their concern (and Roy ended up being kidnapped and drugged for his efforts to find info to explain what had happened to his & Sin's friend), once Laurel got the file, it became all Her Story.  Teen Arrow never was brought into that loop again.  In fact, we barely saw Sin again.

 

And I personally would have preferred to see more of Teen Arrow working things out, eventually getting Team Arrow's attention, than having Laurel being the conduit.

 

As for KC herself... I've only seen her in clips so it's a very compacted viewing of her previous roles.  What I did notice that her facial expressions were... noticable.  In that she actually had different ones, and she was capable of crying in a believable sense.  That alone is different in her Arrow scenes. 

 

She's admitted to not being very familiar with the comics.  I think it shows.  I don't think anyone is expecting her to become a Dinah Lance/BC expert, after all, the characters have been around for decades and have undergone multiple permutations.  But she's quick in interviews to use the comics as a crutch and justifcation for some of her comments and reasoning.  Laurel and Oliver are meant to be together, for example.  When she says stuff like that, she confirms that she's ignorant of the long and very complicated history of the characters.  I've been assuming that KC listens to a few people/sources that tell her what she wants to hear OR is just a selective part of just one version of the character.  And, in the case of Dinah Lance & Oliver being OTP, the only comic version where they married is the same one where they ultimately divorced. 

 

I think KC's reliance on selective comic history (I can't even call it 'canon' at this point) definitely does her no favors with many fans, myself included.

[Tangerine]

I love how all of us managed to build a much more compelling back story for Laurel that would have made her way more sympathetic and the writers constantly fail to do anything for her character. I especially love somebody's suggestion that Sara and Oliver should have been the ones that were involved in the beginning. Laurel was the responsible, disapproving older sister because she knew about Oliver's philandering and blames him for taking Sara on the boat, leading to her death. But he comes back, he's changed, Laurel finds she has developed feelings for him but it's wrong because he was with her sister. There, you have all the obstacles and angst that the CW seems to love, without the bouncing back and forth between sisters that makes it extra gross. It's still dependent of course, on KC and SA having chemistry and KC being able to sell inner conflict and nuance.

 

I don't find KC a completely terrible actress, but there are definitely a lot of moments where I'm just not buying what she's trying to sell, and those moments just completely take me out of the story. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Tangerine

[Morrigan2575]

When Sara became interested in the guy Laurel considered her property, she fixed it so that Sara was grounded so she could get back together with Oliver again

I don't think that's right. Sara had a crush on Oliver and went to Tommy's party to try and hook up with him. Laurel wanted Oliver even though she knew Sara liked him first and called the cops on the party in order to get Sara in trouble. Sara got grounded and by the time she got out Laurel started dating Oliver. If Laurel was with Oliver or on a break from Oliver and Sara made a move on her sister's boyfriend it would have made Sara look bad. Instead that secret about Laurel made Laurel look bad an made people more sympathetic/forgiving of Sara's later actions.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think that's right. Sara had a crush on Oliver and went to Tommy's party to try and hook up with him. Laurel wanted Oliver even though she knew Sara liked him first and called the cops on the party in order to get Sara in trouble. Sara got grounded and by the time she got out Laurel started dating Oliver. If Laurel was with Oliver or on a break from Oliver and Sara made a move on her sister's boyfriend it would have made Sara look bad. Instead that secret about Laurel made Laurel look bad an made people more sympathetic/forgiving of Sara's later actions.

 

If they just let Laurel be an actively shady, shitty person, she could become so much more interesting to me.

Edited July 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Sakura12]

I don't even know they bothered to put that story out there in the first place, it wasn't necessary. Laurel was the victim that was betrayed so she had the sympathy and after seeing and imagining what hell Sara went through she paid for her betrayal 10 fold. So they were both right where they should be. Sara already had the shitty person thing tied to what she did, but throwing in that story made Laurel look shitty as well and gave Sara an understandable (still not good) reason for doing what she did Why tell us a story that makes Sara look better? Especially since Sara was just supposed to be part of their 46 episode plan to show us how great and amazing Laurel is?

[Password]

Why tell us a story that makes Sara look better? Especially since Sara was just supposed to be part of their 46 episode plan to show us how great and amazing Laurel is?

My thoughts exactly. Why did they throw in that scene that made Laurel look not so squeaky clean? It didn't so much make me think what Sara did was justified as it made me think the sisters had a broken relationship even before Sara cheated with Oliver.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Totally agree. If it was supposed to gain some sympathy for Sara, well, then it kinda worked. After all, this was after the "Heir to the Demon" episode and the ill-conceived (to me, anyway) lunge between Sara and Oliver that kneecapped their characters. But at the same time it again put Laurel in an even worse light. And this was during that whole arc where the audience was supposed to start caring about Laurel and her journey/crucible.

[statsgirl]

I don't think that's right. Sara had a crush on Oliver and went to Tommy's party to try and hook up with him. Laurel wanted Oliver even though she knew Sara liked him first and called the cops on the party in order to get Sara in trouble. Sara got grounded and by the time she got out Laurel started dating Oliver. If Laurel was with Oliver or on a break from Oliver and Sara made a move on her sister's boyfriend it would have made Sara look bad. Instead that secret about Laurel made Laurel look bad an made people more sympathetic/forgiving of Sara's later actions.

Laurel was in the same grade at school as Oliver and Tommy whereas Sara was two years younger.  I can't remember if Oliver and Laurel had already gone out by then (it seems to me that they had but I can't find the clip) but even if they hadn't dated, Laurel could well have considered him her property since he was in her class.

[Carrie Ann]

Sara's conversation with Oliver made it sound like Laurel and Oliver had not been together yet when she told Laurel about her crush. And I don't think a normal person would feel that she was entitled to first crack at everyone in her grade over her younger sister, but that's sort of the point, I guess!

 

The more I think about that story, the more I think that the intent was to show that things are always complicated. That there wasn't one bad sister and one good sister. That what happened to them all wasn't Laurel's fault, by any means, but at the same time if you trace things back far enough, all of them made choices that brought them here. 

 

But instead, as @Morrigan2575 and many others here have noted, the story made the already sympathetic Sara seem even moreso, and made Laurel seem...weird and kind of awful? I'm 99% positive that wasn't the intent.

[Morrigan2575]

Laurel was in the same grade at school as Oliver and Tommy whereas Sara was two years younger.  I can't remember if Oliver and Laurel had already gone out by then (it seems to me that they had but I can't find the clip) but even if they hadn't dated, Laurel could well have considered him her property since he was in her class.

How does one consider someone their property just because they're in the same class?  Pretty sure they did not go out before this event, I know you've locked onto the belief that they did but I'm fairly certain that's not what was set up in the flashback.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

How does one consider someone their property just because they're in the same class?

It's what entitled people do.  And Laurel is entitled, she was mad at Tommy because he wasn't there to help her when she was going through rough times (her mother back in town) without a thought to what Tommy might be going through and she was mad her parents were making a fuss about Sara..

 

If Laurel didn't think of Oliver as hers already because she'd known him longer, or at least as someone she should have because she wanted him, why would she get Sara grounded?  I can see doing that to a stranger who was distant enough from you that you didn't consider their feelings (e.g. suggesting OIiver fire Felicity and hire herself to be his PA), but how can you do that to a sister you profess to love?

[tv echo]

Season 1 - Laurel as warm, compassionate lawyer?  Nope.

Season 2 - Laurel as addicted, morally ambiguous lawyer?  Nope.

Season 3 - Laurel as badass, fighting lawyer?  TBD

Edited July 23, 2014 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I can't decide if the writers hate or like Laurel - and I'm not sure we'll ever know.  What professional would admit that anyway?  That being said, I agree wholeheartedly that there has been a consistent (dating back to early in S1) disconnect between what we're told is going to happen with the character and what plays out on screen.  It's a combination of the writing AND the acting, in my opinion.

 

This discussion has made me realize that it's not even solely KC's acting -- it's everyone else's acting in their scenes with her as well. It's easier to spot the suckage in her scenes with Amell because of the insane lack of chemistry, but it goes further than that. The cognitive dissonance from what the EPs say in interviews about Laurel, and what ends up on screen is exacerbated because the single character who reacts to Laurel as "entitled spoiled brat" is Diggle, and even so, that happens mostly in scenes where Laurel isn't present. Every other character reacts to Laurel as "warm, compassionate lawyer with a heart of gold selfless sacrificing good-doer" -- Johanna, Tommy, Oliver, Quentin, Sara, Dinah, etc, all believe Laurel IS exactly that.

 

So maybe all the other actors are getting the proper cues from the scripts and reacting accordingly in their scenes with KC, but it creates a BLACKHOLE OF WHAT THE SHIT, because it's not just that the audience doesn't understand Laurel's motivations, it's that we also don't get why everyone else is behaving weirdly when they're around her. Which in turns creates even greater cognitive dissonance than reading EPs interviews.

[TanyaKay]

That one thing I want from season 3 most desperately is Diggle throwing shade at Laurel and he does it to her face like he did with Helena. That would make me immensely happy. I know I am not gonna get it because she will be propped once again as this wonderful lawyer - she sucks as a lawyer. I want him to tell her what exactly he thinks of her and what he thinks of Oliver's association with her and how it all sucks. That day, Diggle would be one of us.

[Tangerine]

But I believe that the show is operating under the misguided belief that they can make us feel the same way about Laurel that we do about Sara and Felicity by hyping her character up constantly. Because if we're being honest, Felicity for all intents and purposes is the show's de facto leading lady. Now while her overall character development leaves a lot to be desired (i.e. her not having a life outside of TA's and Oliver's orbit etc.) she is who the audience has all but chosen as their leading lady. But she never meant to be. Laurel was meant to be and in all fairness to EBR and the character of Felicity, the issues the audience have had with Laurel existed long before the show decided to expand Felicity's role. I remember very early on in the first season not connecting to Laurel in the way that I should have been not to mention being utterly uninspired by the distinct lack of chemistry between SA and KC.

Brought this over from the Spoilers thread.

Prior to season 2, I was completely indifferent to Laurel. She wasn't negatively impacting my enjoyment of the show until Sara came in and I realized that we had a completely perfect Black Canary that I didn't want to see sacrificed for the sake of a half-baked concept of a character.

Laurel, on paper, is a character that should work. She's a passionate lawyer who believes in justice, but is also struggling to fight for justice within the confines of the legal system. But somewhere in between page and screen something got lost in translation. It wasn't until the second half of season 2 where they were actively shoehorning her in to the action and making ridiculous proclamations of knowing Oliver better than anyone that made me actively dislike her. Really, the producer's interviews about her make me dislike the character even more. The thing is, the fact that it was a villain choosing to tell Laurel that Oliver was the Arrow says to me that Oliver had no desire or intention to include Laurel in that part of his life, and now she's being forced in because....of reasons. It's as people have mentioned, everything she's been given has been unearned and it's very irritating when we've had to deal with diminishing screen time for more interesting characters.

[FurryFury]

Laurel, on paper, is a character that should work.

 

Is she? Did her The Dark Knight prototype Rachel ever work? The best thing she did was die a shocking death. So I'm not sure a selfless lawyer is even a good concept on paper.

[wonderwall]

I know this is old news but when one of the EPs said that KC fans will be happy with her arc did anyone else think of fan-pandering? 

 

This is the definition of fan pandering. In order to not accept anyone shitting on Oliver/Felicity or anything Felicity by deeming it fan pandering, I must be someone else. I must be something else. AKA Imma kick the butts of people who bring up fan-servicing/pandering.

 

I'm bored. Sue me :p 

[statsgirl]

i think it depends on how they write her.  If she pretty much keeps out of the Arrow cave and does her job prosecuting criminals the Team catches, that would be okay.  (The question is, would her fans be happy with that limited a role?)

 

But if they find contrived excuses to put her directly on the team and hanging around the new cave, and limiting other characters so she can do their jobs, like hacking Sebastian Blood's computer exactly the way Felicity did the mob boss's one in s1, and having them talk about how she's taking classes so she can fight too, I'd say that's fan pandering.  

 

Unfortunately the fans they're panding to are AK and MG.

 

From the spoiler thread:

 

I agree with those who think this is the season they'll prop up Laurel by making her (or trying to make her) more likeable and by slowly phasing out Sara, all toward taking giant steps towards Laurel becoming the Black Canary. 

We've already got the new Laurel love interest spoiler and KC pumping iron tidbits and the Laurel & Oliver working hand-in-hand to catch & convict bad guys spoiler.  Now we've got Laurel interacting with Felicity and Diggle - two of the most popular characters on the show. 

How did Oliver become more likeable in Seasons 1 and 2?  Through his interactions with Felicity and Diggle - who became his friends, lightened him up and thought he was a hero.  How will Laurel become more likeable?  Through her interactions with Felicity and Diggle - who will become her friends, lighten her up and probably be saved by her at some point during the season.  We'll see a Laurel who's supportive and more lighthearted.  She'll probably be given some funny quotable quips to say.  She'll be less angsty and hostile.  She'll be 'fun' and Felicity's new 'BFF'.  She'll have some hero moments.  She'll stay platonic friends with Oliver (at least for now).  By the end of Season 3, fans will be going "oh we like this new Laurel". 

 

At least, that's probably what the EPs hope.  Personally, I think it may be too late for this character and I'm also not sure KC has the acting chops to pull it off in a convincing manner.

 

 

I don't think it would work for Laurel as it did for Oliver. For one thing, SA wanted to lighten up Oliver at times it seems because after ep 1x03, he asked for more scenes with Felicity because she allowed him to play an aspect of Oliver he didn't ordinarily get to play.  KC plays only one note at a time for Laurel so if she's suddenly nice and besties with Felicity and babysitting for Diggle, we're going to get whiplash after her last scene in the cave.

 

If they want to redeem Laurel and have her working with Team Arrow and not just Oliver, I think they need to show her light-hearted and supportive of others at her workplace first and s-l-o-w-l-y let her onto the team.  Doing it at the Arrow cave is going to seem too hypocritical and I think it will backfire on them.

Edited July 24, 2014 by statsgirl

[wingster55]

but Willa did a pretty decent job with whatever material she was handed and no one I know hated her with the same gusto as they hate Laurel. 

 

That's (I believe) partly because she isn't as featured. It happens (mostly) with female characters on CW shows I feel..a female character is fine as long as she isn't a major character (in screen time) but as soon as she gets it, the "haters" come out. It happened with Laurel, with Felicity and Sara. Who's to say it won't happen with Thea? (A bit off-topic I admit...is there an appropriate thread?)

[Chairman Meow]

I know this is old news but when one of the EPs said that KC fans will be happy with her arc did anyone else think of fan-pandering? 

 

This is the definition of fan pandering. In order to not accept anyone shitting on Oliver/Felicity or anything Felicity by deeming it fan pandering, I must be someone else. I must be something else. AKA Imma kick the butts of people who bring up fan-servicing/pandering.

 

I'm bored. Sue me :p 

As it was explained to me by a Laurel/KC fan on tumblr - Anytime Felicity is onscreen is fan-pandering because her character doesn't exist in the Green Arrow universe and is therefore being "awkwardly forced into the storyline" because the fans like her.  Conversely - any storyline that KC/Laurel gets is NOT fan pandering because it's "dictated by the source material."

 

(the quotation marks indicate parts I took directly from an anonymous ask I received on tumblr.)

[Password]

If the EPs continued with the original storyline from maybe the first 3 episodes of season 1, I don't think they would've made it to season 3. In other words, not bringing in Felicity to make up the trio with excellent chemistry. I really feel the show hit its stride around "Odyssey" and didn't look back until around Heir to the Demon. It got better and better and I just loved it.

 

I remember Tommy said something like "Dinah Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" or some such nonsense. That I imagine is where they want to go. Even though many in the audience don't. So I'll hold on to team Arrow and Felicity until things turn ugly...you know once Oliver becomes intolerable again because the plot dictates he be a douche.

 

If fan pandering means doing things in a way that I can watch and enjoy, fan pander away.

[willpwr]

Personally, I think the issue with Katie Cassidy is that she doesn't exude warmth, at least not to me. I've seen interviews where she says that her acting method is very similar to Paul Blackthorne's and how they love discussing the Lance family backstory, yet she's never read the comics. She herself, appears very disconnected to what she says in regards to her role. I see the other actors and most of the time, I see them as their characters, when Laurel Lance appears, I see Katie Cassidy trying to act and IMHO, failing. Horribly.. I think the writers don't know what to do with her because she herself doesn't seem to understand her character. I've seen her interviews and don't see any difference between how she behaves, talks, etc in interviews than how she is on the show. She can work out as much as she wants but that does not make her acting "emmy worthy" as she delusionally said before.

 

I tried to be open minded towards her, I don't fast forward through her scenes in the hopes that I will eventually be able to appreciate her character as I loved Being Human and Meaghan Rath's Sally wasn't originally my favorite as there was a huge disconnect from her story and the other character's in the beginning but eventually she grew on me and I ended up adoring her Sally more than the original. I was optimistic that that would be the case here, that KC's Laurel would grow on me but I don't think it's going to happen, her scenes really take me out of the show. 

[Pyramid]

Laurel has had forty six episodes to grow on me or rather KC has had forty six episodes to make Laurel grow on me and ... nothing. I just can't warm to her. I find her movements wooden and her expression fixed. Let's remember her following the laser pointer, or maybe not.

On the other hand EBR did the head-tilt-that-launched-a-career and I immediately wanted to learn more about her.

Laurel/KC is pretty much a lost cause to me now. I'm willing to see what they have in store this season, but if we get to sixty nine episodes and they're still trotting out the line about "KC fans will be excited by the next development" I'll just throw my hands up, wish a fond farewell to the rest of Starling City's residents and dust off my Farscape DVDs for an overdue rewatch.

[wingster55]

I think EBR is more tolerable to watch than KC but I think that may be due to Felicity being a more comedic character. When both have to portray dramatic moments...they both fall short of the mark imo (see the reveal to Laurel by Slade, and then Felicity's speech to Oliver/moment before the speech in...21 or 22). 

Both are blown out of the water by the Queen women I think.

Which is neither here nor there I suppose.