The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[Shanna Marie]

I was rewatching some of the episodes from earlier in the season, and they really can't play the moral relativism card with Rumple and Belle, trying to make her look bad for attempting to use the dagger once to make him do something to help and for lying about knowing Anna and what happened to her. He's been lying through his teeth the whole time about knowing about Anna, since we know he met her, knowing about the urn, since he gave it to the sisters, and knowing about Ingrid, since he met her. And then he's been using the fake dagger and Belle to enable his lies by "proving" he was telling the truth. She still has plenty of reason to be mad at him, especially after he played holier than thou as she was apologizing to him. I think the using her as his alibi while lying to her and everyone else may be the worst part, because it makes her part of his deception.

[Trek]

What I find hypocritical is when the "good guys" keep crawling to Rumple whenever they have something they want (and more times than not, what they want is nothing altruistic but selfish) and then being outraged that he wants them to keep their end of the deal in return.

 

What Cinderella wanted (and got) was nothing more and nothing less than a gold diggers wet dream and when he shows up at the ball has the audacity to give him the ‘icky face.’ If Anna didn’t want to give the old dude the poison/cure don’t do the deal. Don’t pretend to go along and then screw Rumple over. She doesn’t have the moral high ground here.

 

Furthermore, unlike modern lawyers, he even tells them specifically about the small print. He told Snow (who came to him) that drinking the memory eraser would change her. She does it anyway. He tells the three sisters (who also came to him) that they don’t need his help, true sisterly love (which the ribbons symbolizes) is all they needed and was worth its weight in magic. I.e. He practically spelled it out for them that the Ribbons were way more precious than the gloves and Urn and that they shouldn’t do the deal. They do it anyway.  How is Ingrid going all Snow Queen his fault? He is under no obligation to tell anyone he knows her at all or try to save Anna who has screwed him over (see 2nd para) before.

 

If he any of these contracts found its way into a modern court, they’d all find in Rumple’s favor.

 

That Rumple does deals at all is in essence him putting a self-limit on himself. He doesn’t need to and, as far we know, no previous Dark One ever offered that courtesy. Unless it had something to do with Bae, he’s basically at home by himself minding his own business. They are the ones that come to him. If he just wants someone’s firstborn, he pretty much can go and take one anytime he wants from basically anyone. If he wanted a housekeeper, he could have just gone to Belle’s court, snapped his fingers a dozen times turning them all into roses and carted Belle off anytime he wanted without doing them any deed in return whatsoever.  Nope they asked him to come so that dad could keep that shitty little crown on his head and that’s exactly what he did.  Then after they got their wish, the courtier comes knocking at his door for Belle back. Getting obliterated is exactly what he deserved.

 

If they keep their end, Rumple has no beef with them whatsoever and isn’t a danger. Charming, when he had no power, came crawling to Rumple for selfish reasons multiple times, did his end (e.g. give (the hair on the back of) his cloak, put egg in Maleficent etc.) and there were no problems. Later Charming gets some kingly power, instead of thanking the dude, colludes with Cinderella to imprison him forever? What an ass.

 

PS. Partially tongue in cheek.

 

... ... ...

The relativism here is that the good guys want to use/access Rumple’s power as much as Rumple but want to do so with neither consequence (magic has a price, but I don’t want to pay it) or guilt because it’s Rumple who has to bear the curse, not them.  (Belle also couldn’t resist using it for selfish ends – to redeem her self-worth and be the hero she wants to be – more so than “saving” Anna per se).  Rumple, OTOH, who actually has the ability to use his power all the time, puts self-limits on himself (he doesn’t need to do deals at all and can be dictator of Storybooke if he wants but is fine with owning a pawnbroker shop) and is also fully aware of the consequences of using magic.

[Rumsy4]

Heh--I agree with what you say to a certain degree, Trek, but the issue is that Rumple's price is always steep, and way more than anyone has any conception of. He is aware of the Price of Magic, but those dealing with him, have no proper conception of it. He is usually manipulating them to get what he wants, and many times, is simply playing them.

Sure--Cinderella desperately wanted to escape her life of poverty, but how many people would want to part with their child as the price? Would she have agreed to the deal had she known the cost? And the reason why Charming helped Ella could be because of his own family history, and knowing that he had lost a brother thorough Rumple's deals. I agree that Anna was wrong in lying to Rumple about fulfiling her end of the bargain, but she didn't deserve to be locked up forever because of it. And so on... At the end of the day, the power and knowledge differential is greatly slanted in favor of Rumps.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

Rumple doesn't spell shit out in his deals, most of the time. He words things so people misunderstand him or underestimate the price, and does so on purpose. I'm hesitant to call Ella a "gold digger". She was a slave in her own home and was seeking to escape a life of abuse and mistreatment. And why did she need to make a deal with Rumple? Because he murdered her fairy godmother in cold blood.

[Trek]

Rump did slaughter the fairy godmother, I never said he was good and Rump (pre-Belle) never ever claimed that he was. But Ella does claim to be just that, so was Ella shocked/horrified/angry? Nope. Truncated it was “ooh, you killed her, can you grant my wishes instead? I want to go to a ball so I can marry a rich husband.” Putting aside that she didn’t give a shit about the murder, she could have asked for “a horse, 50 gold and a job in a faraway town,” you know, and maybe then the price would be 3 tear drops plus her handkerchief.

 

Point is, the ‘good guys’ are hypocrites. Rump doesn’t just take what he wants even though he could.  He gives them a choice with enough rope to see if they’d hang themselves. That they do is as much on them as it is on Rumple (rather than “it’s all Rumple’s fault.”)

Edited November 15, 2014 by Trek

[ShadowFacts]

Word should have gotten around that in dealing with Rumple, you'll be likely to get the bad end of the bargain, and I think it was known, hence people (David's mother?) not even wanting to say his name.  Making a deal with the Dark One should always seem like a bad idea, but people want what they want when they want it, and Rumple knows a desperate soul when he sees one. 

[Serena]

Rump did slaughter the fairy godmother, I never said he was good and Rump (pre-Belle) never ever claimed that he was. But Ella does claim to be just that, so was Ella shocked/horrified/angry? Nope. Truncated it was “ooh, you killed her, can you grant my wishes instead? I want to go to a ball so I can marry a rich husband.” Putting aside that she didn’t give a shit about the murder, she could have asked for “a horse, 50 gold and a job in a faraway town,” you know, and maybe then the price would be 3 tear drops plus her handkerchief.

 

Point is, the ‘good guys’ are hypocrites. Rump doesn’t just take what he wants even though he could.  He gives them a choice with enough rope to see if they’d hang themselves. That they do is as much on them as it is on Rumple (rather than “it’s all Rumple’s fault.”)

But Ella didn't want to marry a rich husband. That's never been something that was stated in canon. She wanted a night off, and then she was probably going to go back home and continue her life. Yes, she was stupid in not thinking it through better, but she was just a young desperate girl and Rumple took advantage of her. HE knew better. He could have chosen to tell her "let's be very clear about this, if you sign it means you'll have to give me your child, not some jewels" but he didn't because he knew Ella wouldn't agree to that and he needed her to agree. I can't agree that Ella was only in it for the money, because after all she was running away from the palace and willing to go on the run to save her child (again, dumb because it wouldn't have worked, but she definitely didn't put riches about the wellbeing of her child).

 

And also, Rumple does actually take what it wants. It amuses him to make deals so he can be like "ohh, you chose it, not me!" but when he's not in the mood, he'll break deals and straight up lie to the people he's making deals with. He could take what he wanted without sticking to the deal with Hook and Milah, and he did just that (sucks for him that Hook outsmarted him by switching hands). He also build a big deception in order to lead Regina to believe Frankenstein could save Whale, just to crush her spirit and have her go to the dark side. He made a deal with Emma to help her find something to save Henry in the S1 finale, but then he straight up lied to her and double crossed her and didn't stick to it. 

Edited November 15, 2014 by Serena

[myril]

Point is, the ‘good guys’ are hypocrites. Rump doesn’t just take what he wants even though he could.  He gives them a choice with enough rope to see if they’d hang themselves. That they do is as much on them as it is on Rumple (rather than “it’s all Rumple’s fault.”)

 

You're right, the good guys probably should ask a lot more questions and be aware, that whatever Rumple does for them or gives them comes with a high price, they should read the fine print. Maybe a thing of the good guys, that they have a tendency to be a little ignorant and too trustful. But IMO Rumple is as much a hypocrite if not even more one. He has the power of a seer, hasn't he? He seems to believe in his visions, as foggy as they might be at times, believe in fate and destiny - so if he gives people a choice, do they actually have a choice? Won't things come to pass anyway, one way or the other? Furthermore, Rumple has manipulated people for decades, has manipulated families for generations, made use of their despairs, fears, hopes and wishes, to follow his own big plan. Of course, if believing in fate as I think he does, from Rumple's point of view he was mostly helping fate on its way, not that he had ever any choice to do so, all destiny. But if everything is destined, then there is not much of a choice, is there?

Edited November 15, 2014 by katusch

[Camera One]

And in more than one situation, Rumple created the situation which later resulted a deal being made.  In Cinderella's case, they just went with their modus operandi and made her stupid and naive.  And they haven't changed that since.  Look at plucky, sassy, Anna in "The Apprentice".  She also signed the deal without reading it.

[Mari]

And in more than one situation, Rumple created the situation which later resulted a deal being made.  In Cinderella's case, they just went with their modus operandi and made her stupid and naive.  And they haven't changed that since.  Look at plucky, sassy, Anna in "The Apprentice".  She also signed the deal without reading it.

Actually, I thought that almost made sense for Anna, and they didn't necessarily have to dumb her down.  She's plucky and sassy, but she's also naïve, impulsive, and a little arrogant.  For example, in the Bo Peep episode, she had no clue exactly what Peep was capable of, or what David was capable of.  She still assumed the best course of action was to stand up to Peep--without thinking about things like Ruth might want to survive.  It would be like me going 5000 miles away from where I'm familiar with, and assuming that because I've seen a few documentaries about gangs I'd be capable of giving advice about how to handle the local organized crime situation.  It might miraculously work out, but it wouldn't be because I knew what I was talking about.

 

It might be because she has so little experience with magic, or with people in general, but it seems like she believes that things will work out the way she wants them to--and she assumed that would work that way with Rumple, too.

 

Not excusing Rumple--he's definitely manipulative and evil--but I don't think he had to work that hard to take advantage of Anna.  The miracle is that no one did earlier.

[Rumsy4]

Is the Show going to pretend Rumplestiltskin still deserves a Happy Ending with Belle? At this point, I love that he is back to being unabashedly evil, but they'd better not have Belle bleating about his goood heaaart.

[Mari]

Question from my non-watching daughter. Is the Snow Queen's level  crazy associated with the size of her collar or the amount of cleavage?

I think the crazy is associated with the ostentatious collar (based on Zelena's necklace), while the magic/evil is associated with the cleavage--at least based on the show's past history of Power Boobs.  (Snicker.  When even the non-watchers notice and think it's an issue, show, maybe it's time for a switch up?)

Edited November 17, 2014 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

Is the Show going to pretend Rumplestiltskin still deserves a Happy Ending with Belle? At this point, I love that he is back to being unabashedly evil, but they'd better not have Belle bleating about his goood heaaart.

 

I  thought it was interesting that part of the reason people seem to think he has/might have changed is because he married Belle.  Emma's "You married Belle" line and the way she said it was really interesting.

[Rumsy4]

I thought it was interesting that part of the reason people seem to think he has/might have changed is because he married Belle. Emma's "You married Belle" line and the way she said it was really interesting.

I made this exact point in the episode thread just now. haha The "fairytale" aspect of the Rumple/Belle marriage definitely helped his image. People think he sacrificed himself to defeat Pan, and now has been mellowed by suffering and loss. But they don't get Rumple's true psyche, which is that of a desperate soul out to gain as much power and control as possible. Besides, most people think Belle has the Dagger, and is keeping him from doing anything too shady.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Rumsy4

[OnceUponAJen]

Besides, most people think Belle has the Dagger, and is keeping him from doing anything too shady.

I love Hook, but......people would know this if he'd just come clean about his whole blackmail plan with Rumple.

[Dani-Ellie]

As I was doing my rewatch yesterday, I came to the conclusion that Ingrid is, so far, the most sympathetic villain on this show for me. Usually I do not at all buy into the villain's sob stories, but I am totally buying into this one.

 

There are a few different aspects of Ingrid's story that are doing it for me. The first is what led her here. Ingrid's accidental killing of her loving, adoring sister with magic she couldn't control is by far the best reason for slipping into magical villainy I think this show has ever done. There's an underlying sense of utter tragedy to it all, and really, if anything is a reason to go off your rocker, that's it. It's one of those things where I can't help thinking that if there was some type of Enchanted Forest mental health facility that could have helped Ingrid deal with the guilt of her loss, she might not have gone down this path.

 

Of course, it doesn't at all excuse what she did to Elsa and Anna and what she's doing now. And that I think is the other key: I don't feel like the show is presenting her in a "feel sorry for her" light. They're not pandering to her, they're not excusing her villainy. They're presenting her as mentally unstable and they're presenting her actions as wrong. They're not pretending she's justified in her actions due to her tragedy. And it's refreshing.

 

And what's really aggravating is now I know they can do this. See, show? Just present the story and let the audience decide whom to root for. Don't try to shove it down our throats. I may not feel like Ingrid should be redeemed and given rainbows and puppies and kittens but I do hope they don't kill her and instead they neutralize her and send her somewhere she can get the help she needs.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[RadioGirl27]

Yeah, I agree. Ingrid is the best villian so far. And I wonder how much of the way she is written is due to Adam and Eddy and how much to Disney controlling everything realted to Frozen (she may not be in the film, but she is tied to that story, being Elsa's aunt).

[Notwisconsin]

The thing you have to remember is that all the villains are emotionally little children in grownup bodies.

[Dani-Ellie]

Oh, I completely get that. I just think accidentally killing your sister is a more comprehensible reason for going off the deep end than, say, blaming a small child for someone else murdering your boyfriend. ;)

Edited November 18, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Jean]

I think some of it has to be EM's input and acting and it seems like they gave her a lot of freedom with Ingrid. Ingrid's completely batshit crazy but the thing I love most about her and the one thing that makes her stand out from all the other villains is that she takes no pleasure from hurting others. She doesn't even see them. She has one goal in mind and she's doing everything to get that and anything in her way is just an obstacle to get rid of but it's not like she derives pleasure from it. She also doesn't bother with gratuitous villainy. Every single act of hers has a purpose. Ok maybe except for freezing Arendelle.

 

She also sells the fact that she truly believes she's helping Emma and Elsa and believes that everyone will turn on those 2 like they did with her. It's not just a justification or excuse for her, it's something she really buys into cause she is just that crazy. I don't see that with Woegina or the others. I don't see that they really believe half the crazy shit they're spouting, they're just saying it to excuse themselves and make themselves be the victim.

[Faemonic]

I loved, loved, loved the idea of a renewed rivalry between Rumpel and Hook, because before Neal died the Rumpel-Hook-Baelfire trifecta was the most interesting relationship dynamic to me and this was never explored. Carlyle and O'Dono seem to be pretty good friends too, so I got a vicarious bit of contentment thinking, "D'aww, they get to work together a lot more! Yay!"

But...I don't know. It seems a bit shallow now? Like, they hate each other, and we know this, and we know why. It's furthering the plot, but the characters aren't changing for it, and they're not interestingly regressing.

I mean, the way Rumpel brought up Milah was just bland. Hook, who I used to admire for how cleverly he could manage to be annoying and survive being annoying to people waaay more powerful than he...well, now he's just outclassed on every level.

I like the scenes with Rumpel and The Snow Queen, but other than that... it's like I somehow get the feeling that all the beloved baddies are put in cubicles somehow for some reason? Not only are they not getting at each other even when they're so obviously literally getting at each other, but they're so isolated. I don't know how to describe it. It's like the villains are less alive around each other than they used to be.

[stealinghome]

I think some of it has to be EM's input and acting and it seems like they gave her a lot of freedom with Ingrid.

Yeah, I wonder this too. I agree that Disney keeping an iron leash on Frozen is helping, but I think a lot of it is that Mitchell is hitting all the right notes acting-wise.

[Faemonic]

So, over at the S04.E08 thread, I mentioned that I enjoyed this inferred sort of vitriolic friendship between Regina and Hook.

Obviously, the showrunners don't share my interest keenly enough to develop that, or even maintain what made it through, which is fine. And viewer's headcanons would be like, "Regina and Hook? They are aware of one another's existence...and that's it." Which is reasonable.

But allow me to play you a little text slideshow of the moments between them that I enjoyed, perhaps with Green Day's "Time of Your Life" playing in the background because that always plays in the background of every slideshow ever made.

- Two conversations about moral philosophy, one initiated by Regina like what Reg, did Rumpel shoo you off so that he could do his wardrobe change, but you still had some emo in you yet?

- Hook's the one who snaps Regina out of her post sensei-death funk. "Shall we all start preparing our souls? Mine's going to take some time."

- Hook addresses Regina as "Your majesty" even sarcastically. I mean, contrast that with how he talks about Snow. "Milady"? Later he says, "The Queen and Snow" when Regina isn't even there. Wasn't Snow White the Queen? Princess Regent, at least? Excuse your honorable Mr. Jones esquire or whatever, but I don't know how the peerage works in your world.

- Regina told Hook about how The Un-Curse worked. Couldn't that have been announced at a royal press conference with a podium, or whatever the Enchanted Forest equivalent of it is? Or did people really have to come up to Regina and ask, and only Hook was curious enough?

- Regina bringing up Hook's pining to Emma, once in Neverland, again before magic lessons. When did Regina start to care about anybody's feelings?

Even with Regina's vitriol, like, "I don't do rum!" and "I haven't forgotten about the anti-magic cuff, Pirate." There's that dynamic there that I considered disproportionately entertaining considering that it was just a sprinkle of little events.

And I miss it.

[InsertWordHere]

I've always liked Hook's line about what Regina's curse did to the Enchanted Forest. IDK, I don't think it's a vitriolic friendship, I think it's just vitriolic. Hook has always come across as having no use for Regina's pity parties, IMO, but he's smart enough not to get on her bad side most of the time. I wish this show had let Emma and Hook talk about the Marian thing some more. I think Hook definitely would have told her that Regina made her own bed when she killed Robin's wife, and Emma's the one who actually fixed what Regina did. 

 

But I do like the relationship. I just also like that there seems to be no love lost between them.

[HoodlumSheep]

I kind of wish Killy and Regina would talk more too, if only for the fact that he and Cora were evil besties for a while (ok, big exaggeration, but I loved their little evil brotp they kinda had going for them).

Cora is still my favorite villain though. I'm waiting for 4a to finish before I officially rank the DQ,l; she could end up topping Cora for me.

Is it only me, or is Rumple kind of getting obsessed (probably too strong of a word) with Killy's villainy? Like, he keeps on telling him he's a horrible villain, he vengeance-driven, and that he'll never change, etc. in order to make Killy hate himself more...but at the same time it feels like Rumple is trying to convince himself that Killy is still a horrible person. Sort of like being in denial that his nemesis has changed for the better??

It probably is only me, but I just get this weird vibe from Rumple.

I want the DQ to win against Rumple. EM is slaying all her scenes. Rumple seems to be crueler than normal lately, so I hope he gets knocked down a peg or two (or a million).

[Mari]

I've always liked Hook's line about what Regina's curse did to the Enchanted Forest. IDK, I don't think it's a vitriolic friendship, I think it's just vitriolic. Hook has always come across as having no use for Regina's pity parties, IMO, but he's smart enough not to get on her bad side most of the time. . . .

 

But I do like the relationship. I just also like that there seems to be no love lost between them.

Yes.  To me, it always seemed as if Hook had respect for Regina's power, but not necessarily for Regina's person--and, like Rumple, he would tell her things she didn't want to hear, or wasn't self-aware enough to figure out herself.

 

I guess I wouldn't've thought of it as friendship, but, well, the only relationship we've consistently seen Regina not be insulting in is her relationship with Henry.  Insulting seems to be her base setting.  Regina might've thought of them as friendsish?

 

I do miss Hook slipping her reality check comments.  It was refreshing.

[RadioGirl27]

Is it only me, or is Rumple kind of getting obsessed (probably too strong of a word) with Killy's villainy? Like, he keeps on telling him he's a horrible villain, he vengeance-driven, and that he'll never change, etc. in order to make Killy hate himself more...but at the same time it feels like Rumple is trying to convince himself that Killy is still a horrible person. Sort of like being in denial that his nemesis has changed for the better??

It probably is only me, but I just get this weird vibe from Rumple.

I think Rumple is projecting in Hook his own failure in being a better man. He can't accept that Hook has been able to move on and that he is actually changing and becoming a better person while he is still the same coward and power-thirsty man, even with Belle. That's why he is constantly reminding Hook his own darkness.

[YaddaYadda]

If Regina goes into her Woe me victim act about how she doesn't have a happy ending because the book won't let her or whatever her excuse du jour is, she should swing by and have a little chat with Hook, then he can ask her if she knows how to spell s-e-l-f-a-w-a-r-n-e-s-s.

[Serena]

I think Rumple is projecting in Hook his own failure in being a better man. He can't accept that Hook has been able to move on and that he is actually changing and becoming a better person while he is still the same coward and power-thirsty man, even with Belle. That's why he is constantly reminding Hook his own darkness.

Rumple has kind of always been obsessed with comparing himself with Hook. They've been set up from the beginning as opposites, contrasting. Hook was young, charming, and especially brave; Rumple has always been haunted by the idea of being a "coward". I wouldn't be surprised if, in some part of his mind, he actually deeply envies Hook's courage. Plus, a woman chose Hook over him, so that can make one kind of obsess "what does he have that I don't?"

But Hook sliding into villainly was kind of a vindication for Rumple: look, he's not better than me! He's just like me! So seeing Hook overcome it when he can't (won't, doesn't want to), HAS to bug. So him wanting to embrace being a villain? Him making Hook get his hand dirty, etc? That makes perfect sense to me.

Rumple has an emotional investement in Hook being a villain that he doesn't have with, I don't know, Regina. Or any other villain, really.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think Rumple is projecting in Hook his own failure in being a better man. He can't accept that Hook has been able to move on and that he is actually changing and becoming a better person while he is still the same coward and power-thirsty man, even with Belle. That's why he is constantly reminding Hook his own darkness.

Ah, yes, thank you for explaining/wording it better. That just gives Rumple more reasons to hate Killy.

[Curio]

Rumple has an emotional investement in Hook being a villain that he doesn't have with, I don't know, Regina. Or any other villain, really.

 

Well, Rumple helped create a lot of monsters in his day, including Regina, Zelena, and offering to train with Ingrid. With them, it seemed like Rumple was just using them as a means to an end to achieve his own personal goal. But with Hook, Rumple just straight up despises him as a person and wants to see him become more villainous to destroy his character. (And like some others have already said, he's probably a bit envious he can't become a better man like Hook has.)

Edited November 19, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

The other thing with Hook and Rumple other than being contemporaries is that they were both in the military.  Rumple was called for duty during the Ogre Wars and Hook was basically a career military man.  That's sort of an interesting facet of them and how it ended for both of them, Rumple doing the cowardly thing and maiming himself so that he wouldn't have to fight and Hook basically became a deserter because the king he was sworn to serve was corrupt.

 

I've been wondering how Hook and Rumple co-exist in Storybrooke after what went down last episode and what Rumple is planning to do with the heart, what he planned to do with Emma.  How do people co-exist with him?  But then, they have everyone existing with Regina in a such a convoluted way...I wish this show would bite the bullet and put their big boy pants for a minute and deal with all of this.

[HoodlumSheep]

Rumple stays on his side of town while Killy stays on his? Belle serves as a mediator? I don't know.

[Mari]

 

Well, Rumple helped create a lot of monsters in his day, including Regina, Zelena, and offering to train with Ingrid. But with them, it seemed like Rumple was just using them as a means to an end to achieve his own personal goal. But with Hook, Rumple just straight up despises him as a person and wants to see him become more villainous to destroy his character. (And like some others have already said, he's probably a bit envious he can't become a better man like Hook has.)

Is it despises, or is it partly that Hook is the only person alive that remembers who Rumple used to be, when he was mocked and hated by the village?  Every time he sees Hook, he sees someone who remembers--because he was there and witnessed it--that Rumple was a coward, whose wife left him because he could not be what she needed, and who failed his child.

 

The rest of the world may know a few of those stories, but Hook witnessed them.

 

 

 

Rumple stays on his side of town while Killy stays on his? Belle serves as a mediator? I don't know.

Hopefully not.  I may not like Belle, but she doesn't deserve at all to have to stand between her psychotic husband and Hook, who dreadfully mistreated her.  She's got enough to deal with. 

[Curio]

I've been wondering how Hook and Rumple co-exist in Storybrooke after what went down last episode and what Rumple is planning to do with the heart, what he planned to do with Emma. How do people co-exist with him?

 

I honestly think that was the point of no return for Rumple. He's taken Hook's hand multiple times, has forced him to become his henchman when he sucked the Apprentice into the hat, took away his first love, fully intended on taking his second love (and seemed gleeful that Hook had a front row seat to it), has tried to kill him on more than one occasion, and is now taking away his agency by having his heart, which is probably mentally torturing Hook. There is no way those two can ever reconcile after this. This isn't like Snow and Regina where there was a glimmer of happiness in their past before things went to crap, Hook and Rumple have always been enemies and probably always will. Unless Rumple dies, if I were Hook, I'd constantly be looking over my shoulder and worrying about Rumple, even if he seems "redeemed" to everyone else.

[OnceUponAJen]

Unless Rumple dies, if I were Hook, I'd constantly be looking over my shoulder and worrying about Rumple, even if he seems "redeemed" to everyone else.

Which means Hook should probably refrain from blackmailing him. Just stay out of his way altogether. And make sure Emma does too!

Edited November 19, 2014 by OnceUponAJen

[KingOfHearts]

I hope Emma is totally ticked at Rumple for what he did to her boyfriend. If she's anything less than livid I'll be doing some extreme side-eyeing. 

(The irony here is that I'm a Regina fan.)

Edited November 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

Emma should never trust Rumple after all of this -- no one ever should -- but she should also talk to her boyfriend about why he doesn't speak up when the arch villain is plotting and blackmailing.  There is no good reason for Killian not to have spilled before he did on the phone.  But she probably won't be livid, after all, she wants to be friends with Regina very shortly after seeing her burn her mother alive.

Edited November 19, 2014 by ShadowFacts

[HoodlumSheep]

There is no good reason for Killian not to have spilled before he did on the phone.

Still wish we knew how much time has passed. Rumple did threaten to harm Emma and to tell her of the Hook's part in the whole blackmail debacle. I know, lousy excuse, but a little understandable. Maybe if Killy had higher self esteem he would have trusted things would turn out fine if he spilled the beans to Emma.

Also, Killy was resorting to some standard/regular ol' blackmail. Rumple's the one that took it past the point of no return.

I like the idea that Killy is the last link to his pre-Dark One, cowardly days. That is a very good point.

[kili]

Rumple has kind of always been obsessed with comparing himself with Hook. They've been set up from the beginning as opposites, contrasting. Hook was young, charming, and especially brave; Rumple has always been haunted by the idea of being a "coward".

 

He actually projected again when he called Hook a "cowardly pirate" in Neverland. Hook may be a lot of things, but cowardly is not one of them - he'd have a better chance at self-preservation if he did.

 

Also, Killy was resorting to some standard/regular ol' blackmail. Rumple's the one that took it past the point of no return.

 

There was also a difference in the quality of the blackmail (which granted is never nice thing to do to anybody). Killian was blackmailing Gold to do good things - to help find the Snow Queen to try rescue Marian and to get his hand back - things Rumple should be doing anyway if he wasn't a scuzz-bucket.  Rumple is forcing Killian to do bad things like trap people in a Hat.

[Shanna Marie]

There was also a difference in the quality of the blackmail (which granted is never nice thing to do to anybody). Killian was blackmailing Gold to do good things - to help find the Snow Queen to try rescue Marian and to get his hand back - things Rumple should be doing anyway if he wasn't a scuzz-bucket.

And he was threatening to reveal something bad that Rumple shouldn't have been doing that was the absolute truth. Rumple was blackmailing Hook into doing bad things by threatening to reveal the bad things he'd been threatened into doing, with creative editing to remove his own role from those bad things, so he was blackmailing Hook with a lie.

 

I think Rumple's hatred of Hook works on multiple levels -- there's the cowardly vs. brave contrast, there's the fact that pre-Hook Killian was such a jerk to him and pointed out his cowardice, there's the fact that his wife preferred Killian over him, there's the fact that he spent years thinking Killian killed his wife which may mean that he still kind of thinks that way, there's the fact that Killian tricked him out of the magic bean, there's knowing that Hook did know him as the pre-Dark One, there may be fear of what Milah might have told Killian about him. Then there's the poisoning, shooting Belle, getting her memories deleted and bringing Cora to town. They didn't play up this angle, but I wonder if there's also any resentment of the time he spent with Bae. When you think about it, over the centuries in Neverland, Hook had to have spent at least as much time with Bae as Rumple could have in the 14 years Bae lived with Rumple. During most of the time Rumple was plotting and scheming and desperately trying to come up with ways to reach his son, it turned out that his enemy was with him and they had become friends. It would feel like everyone Rumple loves slips through his fingers and ends up with Hook. Just imagine how he'd feel if Belle and Hook ever became friends.

[KAOS Agent]

The power differential between the villains and the good guys has always been a huge problem and it's why I find Rumpel using Hook as his puppet to be just unfair and unfortunate storytelling. It was a much better story when they had the mutually assured destruction blackmail plot going because at least there was some semblance of the characters having a choice. I'm more willing to ignore the idiot ball Hook was handed to get them to the blackmail, as long as I felt like the standoff was on sort of equal footing (it never really is with Rumpel, but there was at least a pretense of it). Now it's just Rumpel essentially torturing Hook before he kills him. That's not something I want to watch. Plus, you can't judge Hook's actions at all at this point because they are all forced by his puppeteer. Rumpel asall powerful god is just really old at this point and I sincerely hope he gets stripped of his powers when trying to use the hat.  

 

One of the nice things about the Snow Queen is that she hasn't been painted as this all powerful sorceress. Her biggest advantage mostly comes from the fact that she's got all the information and is playing everyone else like a fiddle. The heroes haven't really looked like idiots in relation to her either. It's more like they are slowly trying to solve the mystery of what she wants and are making progress, but in the process of discovery, her mind games are working very, very well. Neither Elsa nor Emma want to kill her and she has been very sincere in her interactions with the two of them. She really is a different kind of villain than any other they've had on the show thus far and it's very refreshing. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

One of the nice things about the Snow Queen is that she hasn't been painted as this all powerful sorceress.

Her status is something that's she been working on for literally years. She's just been patient enough to wait for all the cards to come to her, staying in the background. She's also smart and knows exactly how people work. One thing I can appreciate is that she does use magic, but she also balances it with wits. Magic isn't her "cure-all" for all her problems. (Unlike some folks...)

 

She just sits back and lets everyone unwittingly do her bidding for her. That's her shattered sight plan in essence - let the others destroy themselves, then take what you want from the bloody aftermath.

Edited November 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

There will never be a balance between the good and the bad.  This is exactly the reason I wish they'd suck the magic right out of everyone and let them deal with the problems like normal people.  You can't really put Rumple in jail for attempted murder because he'll just blink himself out of there, so you have someone who should be punished for his actions this season who will get to just walk around as though nothing has happened.  I mean I can look at Will who sat in a cell for a couple of days because he broke into the library and crashed Emma's date.  He also stole money from the Snow Queen and none of this rates compared to Rumple sucking an old man in a hat, wanting to do the same thing to Emma and then taking Hook's heart and promising the man that he will basically murdered when Rumple is good and ready.

 

Storybrooke doesn't need jail cells and a sheriff, it needs a full time exorcist.

[ShadowFacts]

Emma and David being co-sheriffs is a joke, too.  Aside from Will, who do they arrest?  Who mans the office/police station when they aren't there looking up census books to find Snow Queen? Don't they have property crimes and domestic violence calls?   It's not only that villains never pay for their crimes, reforming semi-villains don't, either.  Did Hook ever answer for attempted murder of Belle?  Justice is a joke in Storybrooke.  If Emma wants to embrace who she is and stay there with family, maybe she can make it a project to to have real law enforcement.  But like YaddaYadda said, an exorcist would be better. 

[Mathius]

Did Hook ever answer for attempted murder of Belle?

Actually, yeah, for his three-count kidnap of Archie, attempted murder of Belle, and memory-wipe of Belle (seperate counts, btw: he attempted to murder her on his ship, but his shooting of her was by his own admission deliberately non-fatal and designed to make her forget Rumple), he got handcuffed in the hospital and then jailed by David until he escaped during the Giant incident. He didn't get re-jailed later on because Neverland happened.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Mathius

[ShadowFacts]

Ah, sweet Storybrooke justice. Wasn't there also an assault attempt on Belle early on in the library? Water under the bridge. Bygones and all.

[HoodlumSheep]

He got crushed by a shelf of library books. At least he's suffered from bad karma. Which is why I don't mind him being pretty unpunished justice-wise as much as I have a problem with Regina and Rumple. Pretty much every time he did something bad he ended up smashed by library books, punched, hit by a car, tossed around like a rag doll, etc. while Regina and Rumple get to stroll merrily down the street 99% of the time.

Also, Storybrooke's jail sell can hold like 3 people at a time. I guess there is always room in the secret underground asylum.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Hook is the only villain who has a clue what karma is.  Rumple should have an idea since his son died and all, but he doesn't give a fuck (I really don't care about his speech either).

[The Cake is a Pie]

Does Hook even qualify for villain status at this point? Everything nefarious he's done has been at some other villain's bidding. The only things he's done on his own are stab Rumple and (repeatedly) menace Belle. He's probably only at Henchman levels of evil so far. Shooting Belle was pretty evil, but even that was a move against Rumple. He hasn't had any self-serving evil plan like any other villain on the show.

Also, if the fairytales make Peter Pan the hero of the story and Captain Hook the villain, but we see that in reality Pan is the real evil, what does that make Hook?

Edited November 20, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie