S04.E06: Blood of My Blood

[Bort]

Quote

Jamie and Claire are surprised when Lord John Grey drops in on Fraser's Ridge with an unexpected traveling companion; when Grey takes ill, Claire must reconcile her personal feelings with her duties as a doctor.

Airdate: Sunday, December 9, 2018

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[BitterApple]

Interesting the description is "Claire must reconcile her personal feelings." What's her beef with John Grey? I know he's in love with Jamie, but it's not like Jamie's ever going to go there. Not to mention if it weren't for Lord John, Jamie would've been hanged in Jamaica. 

[GingerMarie]

The beef with Joh Grey is he used Jamie's son to get close to him again.  He came to North Carolina to see Jamie and let Claire know ' I will always have this bond with Jamie that you will never have'.  So I can see Claire's dilemma.  Thank goodnes Claire is progressive or there would have been a throw down at FR.  You are right BitterApple Jamie and Claire are solid in their relationship but what person does not have doubts.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

If I were Jamie, I would have been disappointed that my son had turned into a spoiled fancy boy, but instead he just kept doggedly trying to teach him how to be better.

[Glade]

Claire's petty, homophobic jealousy for most of this episode was a chore to sit through.  She's not progressive.

[Geillis]

I didn't see it as homophobic per se but more of resentment of his having time with Jamie that she didn't have.  I did find her remarkably progressive considering the attitudes of the 1960's. She most likely would have shown much of the same resentment if Lord John had been Lady Johanna.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Claire's petty, homophobic jealousy for most of this episode was a chore to sit through.  She's not progressive.

Claire was born in 1918, as we learned in season 2, so back in the 1960's she was living through the Civil Rights Movement and the beginning of the Women's Liberation Movement before returning to the 1800's. She's not a character who is a progressive in our modern meaning of the word. As for her jealousy, I think she was deservedly suspicious of John's motivations in visiting the Ridge. He did admit that one of the reasons he stopped on Fraser's Ridge was to suss out whether he still had the ability to love and feel deeply for someone -- since he was not broken up over Isobel's death -- and that someone was Jamie who he still loves. I can forgive Claire for not being totally understanding about that, even if she knew, deep down, that John was no threat to her relationship. Claire's only human, and whether the person telling Claire that they are in love with her husband and that she must envy them, because they had time with Jamie and is now raising his son is a man or a woman, I don't think the jealousy is any less real.

Quote

She most likely would have shown much of the same resentment if Lord John had been Lady Johanna.

Or what you said.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Nidratime

[Cdh20]

Did John just tell Claire that he could have had Jamie? ONYD- John! Everytime Claire & Jamie see John  Claire learns there’s something Jamie’s  forgotten to tell her- I think that’s why she is always uncomfortable around him!

[BitterApple]

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

If I were Jamie, I would have been disappointed that my son had turned into a spoiled fancy boy, but instead he just kept doggedly trying to teach him how to be better.

Me too, he was such a pansy. He redeemed himself a bit by not letting Jamie take the fall when they ran afoul of the Cherokee, but damn, I hope life in America toughens him up a little.

I love Murtaugh, but I really don't want him dragging Jamie into the same kind of shit that put them all on the chopping block at Culloden. Can the Frasers just have a few years of peace and quiet? Or even a few months? Is that too much too ask?

Feverish John Grey was spilling the tea. Claire was definitely judging him even though she claimed not to be. 

I was kind of grossed out by unwashed Jamie having sex with a freshly bathed Claire. Because it's tv, I have to assume he smelled like roses and sunshine despite being out in the wilderness in the same clothes for over a week. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't know how Jamie, John, and Claire all kept from rolling their eyes when William asked if someone could fetch him a chamber pot so he wouldn't have to go outside and use the privy.

[Cdh20]

8 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Me too, he was such a pansy. He redeemed himself a bit by not letting Jamie take the fall when they ran afoul of the Cherokee, but damn, I hope life in America toughens him up a little.

I love Murtaugh, but I really don't want him dragging Jamie into the same kind of shit that put them all on the chopping block at Culloden. Can the Frasers just have a few years of peace and quiet? Or even a few months? Is that too much too ask?

Feverish John Grey was spilling the tea. Claire was definitely judging him even though she claimed not to be. 

I was kind of grossed out by unwashed Jamie having sex with a freshly bathed Claire. Because it's tv, I have to assume he smelled like roses and sunshine despite being out in the wilderness in the same clothes for over a week. 

Overthinking again? Oh maybe it wasn't you, LOL! Since dirty, bloody, unshaven Jamie is the hottest, this is another thing I've been handwaving away, because irl, he'd have to be fresh out of the shower. 

[terrymct]

I don't understand why they showed someone throwing a milk snake out of the outhouse in the beginning of the episode?  Or was that supposed to be a coral snake (which doesn't occur in the NC mountains).  Was it supposed to be a demonstration of the potential dangers out in the wilderness?  

Kind of a meh episode.  Willie was a poncy little brat, which I suspect he was supposed to be so that we see he's growing up to be a part of Grey's world and not Jamie's.  Was that a wig on the child actor?  Good grief, his hair looked like a wig that comes with a cheap Halloween costume.   Grey and Claire both eyeing each other and sparring as Jamie's competing love interests was painfully bad. 

Why did Claire, Jamie, and Murtagh have to sleep outside so that Grey and Willie could have the house?  Some kind of class thing?  Couldn't they have pulled the table to the side and set up sleeping spots on the floor near the fire?  Maybe it was the writer's device to get people away from each other so they could talk.   Seemed weird, especially on the egalitarian frontier.  Not very chivalrous either.

It seems like this season is building up to an uprising against the Governor over taxes with Jamie somehow straddling the line between the two sides.   The best thing this season thus far is the return of Murtagh.

[sas616]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

I don't understand why they showed someone throwing a milk snake out of the outhouse in the beginning of the episode?  Or was that supposed to be a coral snake (which doesn't occur in the NC mountains).  Was it supposed to be a demonstration of the potential dangers out in the wilderness?  

Since this is "No Book" talk, there's no way to answer that question.

[taanja]

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

I don't understand why they showed someone throwing a milk snake out of the outhouse in the beginning of the episode?  Or was that supposed to be a coral snake (which doesn't occur in the NC mountains).  Was it supposed to be a demonstration of the potential dangers out in the wilderness?  

Kind of a meh episode.  Willie was a poncy little brat, which I suspect he was supposed to be so that we see he's growing up to be a part of Grey's world and not Jamie's.  Was that a wig on the child actor?  Good grief, his hair looked like a wig that comes with a cheap Halloween costume.   Grey and Claire both eyeing each other and sparring as Jamie's competing love interests was painfully bad. 

Why did Claire, Jamie, and Murtagh have to sleep outside so that Grey and Willie could have the house?  Some kind of class thing?  Couldn't they have pulled the table to the side and set up sleeping spots on the floor near the fire?  Maybe it was the writer's device to get people away from each other so they could talk.   Seemed weird, especially on the egalitarian frontier.  Not very chivalrous either.

It seems like this season is building up to an uprising against the Governor over taxes with Jamie somehow straddling the line between the two sides.   The best thing this season thus far is the return of Murtagh.

Have you ever used an outhouse? cuz yeah-- you have to check for critters and such. That was my take on the snake -- and then they had the later scene with Little Lord Fauntleroy using the outhouse so I thought it all tied in together.

I personally really liked the scenes between Claire and Lord John. I actually LOL'ed at the very PC moment when Claire says -- she can't help who she is -- she was born that way -- bwaaaa! God! Seriously!!!???

Everyone always points out the wigs -- I must say -- I don't really notice. They all have messy unwashed hair anyway -- I just figure that's the "look" they are going for.

Now I'm heading to the book readers thread to find out the significance of that snake!.

[Cdh20]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:28 PM, Glade said:

Claire's petty, homophobic jealousy for most of this episode was a chore to sit through.  She's not progressive.

I was thinking that Claire is blaming John for putting Jamie at that Helwater job which led to him having a child ( that he cannot claim), so whether she is jealous that there is another kid (besides hers & Jamie's), or feels so bad for Jamie since he didn't get to raise any of them! I don't get that she is homophobic at all. Although she did start off quite bitchy!

[Hannah Lee]

4 hours ago, sas616 said:

Since this is "No Book" talk, there's no way to answer that question.

I liked that it called up the snake that Jamie had carved for Willie back in the day, which was a callback to the snake Jamie's older brother William had carved for him, the one with Sawny carved in the bottom.   Even thought William was all dismissive about the "toy" now that he's a bit older, it was a little hint of who was about to show up at FR (for those who hadn't seen the previews last week)

Edited December 10, 2018 by Hannah Lee

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I was thinking that Claire is blaming John for putting Jamie at that Helwater job which led to him having a child ( that he cannot claim), so whether she is jealous that there is another kid (besides hers & Jamie's), or feels so bad for Jamie since he didn't get to raise any of them! I don't get that she is homophobic at all. Although she did start off quite bitchy!

I can buy that. They mentioned Jamie leaving Helwater when Willie was around six, so that's six years Jamie got to spend with another woman's child that he didn't get to spend with Claire's. Jamie has memories of Willie, whereas he has none of Brianna. At this point Claire figures she'll never see Brianna again, meanwhile the competition is standing right in front of her. I think she was jealous, even if she wouldn't admit it.

Edited December 11, 2018 by BitterApple

[Mrs. Hanson]

So....a few questions:  Does Willie think Jamie yelling out "I am the boy's father"  was just a bluff or do we think Willie is on to Jamie?  Do we trust Claire to heal anyone?  People seem to end up dead around her  - I am shocked John Gray lived through the night.

Will Roger follow Bri through the stones?  Did Jamie smell pretty rough after not bathing in the woods?  Does John Gray still yearn for Jamie?  

[BitterApple]

19 minutes ago, Mrs. Hanson said:

So....a few questions:  Does Willie think Jamie yelling out "I am the boy's father"  was just a bluff or do we think Willie is on to Jamie?  Do we trust Claire to heal anyone?  People seem to end up dead around her  - I am shocked John Gray lived through the night.

Will Roger follow Bri through the stones?  Did Jamie smell pretty rough after not bathing in the woods?  Does John Gray still yearn for Jamie?  

I'm assuming Roger will go through the stones, otherwise his entire storyline becomes a dead end. 

I was half expecting John Grey to die and Jamie and Claire taking in Willie. Considering the trail of dead bodies Claire has in her wake, I didn't think he was going to make it either. 

It was interesting to discover that Jamie and John have been exchanging letters. I wonder where one would go to pick up mail back then? Fraser's Ridge is out in the wilderness, so would they have letters sent to some sort of post office box in Cross Creek? 

[kwnyc]

Considering how little there is in the way of modern medicine available, it must be frustrating for Claire to watch people die of illnesses she could wipe out with a shot. However, willow bark = early form of aspirin, so she could at least bring the fever down and let Lord John Grey's immune system fight it out with the measles. Keeping him hydrated, on bed rest and warm were the best she could do otherwise, but it was enough (this time). 

[Mrs. Hanson]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

 Considering the trail of dead bodies Claire has in her wake, I didn't think he was going to make it either. 

I thought this would happen, too, especially after it was revealed Willie's mom had passed.

[terrymct]

23 hours ago, taanja said:

Have you ever used an outhouse? cuz yeah-- you have to check for critters and such. That was my take on the snake -- and then they had the later scene with Little Lord Fauntleroy using the outhouse so I thought it all tied in together.

Not really.  It seemed like the set up for something.  A snake is like Chekov’s Gun.  If you put it on the table you have to use it.  

 

The wigs look like they’re made of straw. 

[terrymct]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I'm assuming Roger will go through the stones, otherwise his entire storyline becomes a dead end. 

I was half expecting John Grey to die and Jamie and Claire taking in Willie. Considering the trail of dead bodies Claire has in her wake, I didn't think he was going to make it either. 

It was interesting to discover that Jamie and John have been exchanging letters. I wonder where one would go to pick up mail back then? Fraser's Ridge is out in the wilderness, so would they have letters sent to some sort of post office box in Cross Creek? 

I was shocked that John Grey didn’t die given Claire’s body count and that it’d be a quick and dirty way to give Claire and Jamie another family member with a cloud of drama swirling around him.  

Both Roger and Bree HAVE to go through the stones.  The whole story has been pointing that way.  The weird cairn stones in the opening with the Native-ish looking people dancing seems like a way that they’ll soon be able to commute between centuries without leaving the new world.  The mountain calls them etc. 

[Cdh20]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 9:11 AM, Mrs. Hanson said:

So....a few questions:  Does Willie think Jamie yelling out "I am the boy's father"  was just a bluff or do we think Willie is on to Jamie?  Do we trust Claire to heal anyone?  People seem to end up dead around her  - I am shocked John Gray lived through the night.

Will Roger follow Bri through the stones?  Did Jamie smell pretty rough after not bathing in the woods?  Does John Gray still yearn for Jamie?  

He answered that when Claire asked him with a "yes"!

I would guess that Willie thinks Jamie yelled that just to save him, but it will come up later, is my guess as a reality check.

Claire only loses patients of no significance!

[Cdh20]

On second viewing I liked his epi more, it had a lot of dialogue to pay attention to!

The good: Jamie keeping his emotions in check, but barely holding back his excitement to see his son. Claire being so supportive, since it was paining her that he will never see Brianna! Counting the kisses!

The bad:  Fade to black! John's breathing when he is sick! Claire moaning when she is in the tub & Jamie's cringey dialogue ! This kid  doesn't look like Jamie either.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Cdh20

[ganesh]

Ok, Claire, yeah, we all know John came by to see Jamie. And? It's not like someone with Claire's long view of time didn't figure that out literally the second he showed up. Surely, your relationship with Jamie is strong enough that you're confident he's not going to run away with John. 

On 12/8/2018 at 8:49 AM, BitterApple said:

What's her beef with John Grey? I know he's in love with Jamie, but it's not like Jamie's ever going to go there. Not to mention if it weren't for Lord John, Jamie would've been hanged in Jamaica. 

Really distasteful scene for me in what was two weeks of good episodes. Claire is impulsive and has a mouth, and that's fine, but I found this to be unnecessarily cruel. 

I'm not one to swoon, but Jamie catching a fish with his bare hands was all find of swoon.

On 12/9/2018 at 12:28 PM, Glade said:

Claire's petty, homophobic jealousy for most of this episode was a chore to sit through.  She's not progressive.

Yeah, I get the larger context, but at this point with what she's lived and seen, I expected it to roll of her more. Of course, this is a woman who waited for her husband to die and immediately booked it once there was a shred of evidence where Jamie was and literally ditched her daughter in the process. So, sure, you can pine away about how you have a daughter, but you're the one who took off after literally becoming an MD. It's not like you were destitute. 

On 12/10/2018 at 3:57 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't know how Jamie, John, and Claire all kept from rolling their eyes when William asked if someone could fetch him a chamber pot so he wouldn't have to go outside and use the privy.

Honestly, the child actor did an absolute fantastic job. I have to give him credit for taking responsibility about the fish. Also, I'm getting over the rigid rules all over the place. How about - You took fish from our river. Sorry, we honestly didn't know about it. Here, take the fish. 

On 12/10/2018 at 1:26 PM, taanja said:

That was my take on the snake -- and then they had the later scene with Little Lord Fauntleroy using the outhouse so I thought it all tied in together.

I thought the snake was the reference to the toy snake that Jamie carved for William when he was a boy. 

I liked Claire last episode and thought she did a great job mediating between the Germans and Native Americans. I take her point here, but I just found it cold and hollow and honestly a little OOC. 

[Netfoot]

10 hours ago, ganesh said:

I'm not one to swoon, but Jamie catching a fish with his bare hands was all find of swoon.

Guddling trout is a fine Scottish tradition!

[Camera One]

This episode was nice since it was mostly quieter moments, though a tad uncomfortable al' round.

The dinner conversation was a tad uncomfortable with Murtaugh and John Grey being a friend of the Governor, and only hearing the perspective of the upper class.  That's what one can really appreciate about Jaime.  He does seem quite balanced and reasonable, and able to find the middle ground.

The stuff between Claire and John was super uncomfortable.  I didn't like how Claire was being so territorial and jealous when she had nothing to fear from John, who recently saved Jaime in Jamaica.  Claire was way more confident than this.... she was even civil and forgiving of Leery in Season 2, so she seemed out of character in this episode.  

I also couldn't believe that John would feel "nothing" when his wife died, when they were lifelong friends.  It made more sense if he experienced guilt for feeling a bit of freedom, mixed with grief.  Claire could have identified with that too, without the sledgehammer type parallels the script tried to draw.

Even if John had selfish reasons for seeing Jaime, it was a good way to trigger memories in Willy before he got any older, when some of the earliest childhood memories disappear.  This way, Willie rebuilt his connection with Jaime, and hopefully he will return in a few seasons as an adult.

The scenes with Jaime and Willy being bratty was a bit uncomfortable to watch as well.  But I think it paid off in the end.

[Athena]

On 4/5/2021 at 12:34 AM, Camera One said:

The stuff between Claire and John was super uncomfortable.  I didn't like how Claire was being so territorial and jealous when she had nothing to fear from John, who recently saved Jaime in Jamaica.  Claire was way more confident than this.... she was even civil and forgiving of Leery in Season 2, so she seemed out of character in this episode.  

I felt her jealousy made sense because John has a deeper connection to Jaime than Leery ever did. Most importantly, John is parenting Willie. John is a lot different than Leery; he's well read, intelligent, and was a soldier too. He's a lot more similar to Jaime and Claire. Claire is jealous because John and Jaime have a genuine emotional connection and their connection through Willie.

I was uncomfortable with it too but I see Claire as very human. She's not always confident about her emotions and expressing them. She's probably never been particularly jealous or had the opportunity to be really jealous in her life, but I can see it in this circumstance. 

[gingerella]

Well, my notes are barely one side of one page, and yet I really liked this episode. It felt dramatic but without violence, except for the Cherokee run-in. Now, where to begin?

Things I liked:

* When I saw the scenes of Jamie leaving Helwater and the adorable wee Willy, then the snake in the privy, I knew we would be seeing Willy but to see John in the opening scene was unexpected. I loved his furry steed.

* When Jamie and John go into the cabin what struck me is how basic and primitive they're living in NC compared to the castles and manor houses of Scotland. It was quite a contrast. I'm sure many of the chores and daily life are similar based on daily life we saw at Lallybroch, but still, it looked more basic compared to the grandeur of Lallybroch, though as we mentioned last week, this 'cabin' is stocked with fine Scottish silver candlesticks and even a huge copper bathtub so it really is like out of Architectural Cabins!

* I love any scene with Claire & Murtagh in it, those two have such a genuine friendship, particularly after that S01 epi where they traipsed around performing for towns in an attempt to find Jamie. Since then, I feel like Murtagh's taken on Claire as his goddaughter. He truly loves her.

* When Murtagh was asking why Jamie was so protective or interested in Willy, it occurred to me that he didn't know about Willy because he'd been banished to the Colonies right at that point where he went to the Colonies and Jamie went to Helwater.  It was nice that the Show didn't keep us hanging on that and Murtagh sussed it out pretty quickly. I loved how his first concern after realizing was 'Dies Claire know.' Because if Jamie had said No, he would have been pissed off. I love his protectiveness of Claire.

* I appreciated that John copped to wanting to see Jamie, but it was so he could know if he could feel emotions again. I thought he was very fond of Isobel, and she was clearly besotted with him, so how could he feel nothing when she died? That part didn't really ring true for me at all.

* As annoying as older William was to begin with, I enjoyed watching him blossom under Jamie's guidance. And when he jumped in front of Jamie and said "He's not my father, he's lying! It was my fault, punish me!" That showed courage and integrity, two things that Jamie has in spades. I'd say John is trustworthy, but he probably isn't anywhere near as courageous as Jamie, he lives a very soft life.

*Loved when William chose to look back at Jamie, when he'd just asked Jamie why he didn't look back at Willy when he left Helwater. That was a nice close of that bit of story. I predict they will see one another again, but the question is, will William ever know Jamie is his real father?

* Lastly, call me a sucker for romance but I did love the bathtub scene. Who knew Murtagh could create such a beautiful ring from a piece of a candlestick?! But I gotta say, when he carried Claire to bed all I could think was those sheets are gonna get musty and moldy what with being used a a towel for a sopping wet body! Not to mention, Jamie lad, bathe before you bed your lady, especially after you've been out and about for a week in the woods!

Things I found interesting:

* Why do folks always seem to have fires burning outside at night? I get that it's sort of like a night light but it seems rather unsafe in the woods, with the amount of combustible material close by the homes, a wind could kick up at any moment and send some sparks flying and then you're up in flames! They had these fire pits outside J&C's cabin, last week's Herr Asshole's cabin, and outside of Aunt Jocasta's plantation home.

* They always shoot John with 'watery' eyes, don't they? It's like they always want him to be on the verge of tears or something. It's odd and I don't need that to know how he feels about Jamie, that's been made very clear already. Does anyone else notice that?

* It's so interesting how jealous Claire is of John. She knows Jamie would never leave her for John, but hearing he offered himself to John as payment for taking care of Willy, that really jolted her, and I guess I would feel the same way if I was her. She and Jamie have never been able to raise a child together, and now it's too late for them to have another child so it's a very sore subject. A son was so important in those days too, so knowing that John 'has' Jamie's son, that's got to hurt Claire as well.

* I was surprised that they decided to go with William turning into a fancy pants priggish sort of lad. Obviously more like Lord John and his cushy life, but he quickly adapted to Jamie's life while they were on their walk about. That camping scene by the river at night was really gorgeous wasn't it?

Things I was confused by:

* When Jamie finds William on Cherokee land fishing, it seems awfully fishy, pun intended, that the Cherokee just happened to be passing by at that exact time. Also, I thought Jamie was know as Bear Killer amongst the local Cherokee tribe so why would they come down so hard on him about one fish caught by a kid that didn't know better?

Okay, that's all I got...

Edited August 19, 2021 by gingerella

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

* As annoying as older William was to begin with, I enjoyed watching him blossom under Jamie's guidance. And when he jumped in front of Jamie and said "He's not my father, he's lying! It was my fault, punish me!" That showed courage and integrity, two things that Jamie has in spades. I'd say John is trustworthy, but he probably isn't anywhere near as courageous as Jamie, he lives a very soft life.

We don't get to see the Older John display this, but his younger self when first introduced to the series showed courage and integrity.   He was courageous enough to risk it all to kill the "notorious" rebel commander, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Claire, thinking she was in danger,  and he had great integrity in sticking to his promise that he owed Jaime his life.  Somehow, John was able to impart a sense of responsibility and human decency to William despite the boy seeming like a spoiled snobbish brat on the surface.

[gingerella]

23 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We don't get to see the Older John display this, but his younger self when first introduced to the series showed courage and integrity.   He was courageous enough to risk it all to kill the "notorious" rebel commander, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Claire, thinking she was in danger,  and he had great integrity in sticking to his promise that he owed Jaime his life.  Somehow, John was able to impart a sense of responsibility and human decency to William despite the boy seeming like a spoiled snobbish brat on the surface.

You're right, I'd forgotten those important points! 

[SassAndSnacks]

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

I loved how his first concern after realizing was 'Dies Claire know.' Because if Jamie had said No, he would have been pissed off. I love his protectiveness of Claire.

Me too!  This warmed my heart.  Love me some Clairtaugh.  

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

They always shoot John with 'watery' eyes, don't they? It's like they always want him to be on the verge of tears or something. It's odd and I don't need that to know how he feels about Jamie, that's been made very clear already. Does anyone else notice that?

I noticed it with this episode especially.  I chalked it up to him being feverish and sick.  

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

It's so interesting how jealous Claire is of John. She knows Jamie would never leave her for John, but hearing he offered himself to John as payment for taking care of Willy, that really jolted her, and I guess I would feel the same way if I was her. She and Jamie have never been able to raise a child together, and now it's too late for them to have another child so it's a very sore subject. A son was so important in those days too, so knowing that John 'has' Jamie's son, that's got to hurt Claire as well.

I actually really feel for Claire here (I know, I'm a Claire fangirl, but still).  Twenty years is impossible to get back.  And then to make it worse, Jamie went through some really terrible things without her, and no matter how much he talks about what happened with her (off screen, apparently), she wasn't there through it with him.  For a good chunk of those years, John was.  I think it would be difficult to not have some pangs of jealously where John is concerned.  He knows a facet of Jamie's life that she never will, and it just so happens that those years produced his son (and yes, I still freaking hate that he has a son...but I digress...)  

I also think the jolt was due to Claire knowing what happened to Jamie in Wentworth.  John doesn't know about BJR, and so he couldn't truly have known the gravity of the situation when Jamie offered himself for Willie's care.  That statement had to have been shocking to Claire on two fronts - bringing up Jamie's torture and recovery and then his desperation of even making an offer like that to John.  

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

When Jamie finds William on Cherokee land fishing, it seems awfully fishy, pun intended, that the Cherokee just happened to be passing by at that exact time.

Yes, a not so slick plot device to get Jamie to "confess" that Willie is his son.  

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I also think the jolt was due to Claire knowing what happened to Jamie in Wentworth.  John doesn't know about BJR, and so he couldn't truly have known the gravity of the situation when Jamie offered himself for Willie's care.  That statement had to have been shocking to Claire on two fronts - bringing up Jamie's torture and recovery and then his desperation of even making an offer like that to John.  

Yes, great point. She looked shocked when he told her that tidbit and with good reason, as you say. Hell, I was shocked when he said that to John because we viewers knew what happened to him. I don't know why he felt he even had to offer himself like that. It was an odd plot line looking back at it, and the only purpose it seems to have served was to shocked Claire now in S04. 

That said, I think John only told Claire all that stuff because firstly, she asked. And secondly, I think he thought he was going to die so he was just confessing all to her. I felt like maybe he thought if he died, Claire might tell Jamie what John had told her and John would die knowing Jamie knew he loved him til the day he died. And while I can feel empathy for John being a gay man in a time when he couldn't have the relationship he wanted, he knows Jamie.isnt into men so move on dude  it aint happening. Like, ever.

Edited August 20, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Now THIS is my kind of episode.  Raise a glass to character development! See show? It's not that painful. 

Great opening with just Jamie and John.  Poor John. He's looking old, but Jamie looks younger every time I see him. 🙄

I also liked that Claire and Murtagh got to see young Willie..iam before Jamie did.  I think it was important for Claire to establish her personality to the young mind before she got slotted into the "wife of" role. She was kind, motherly and could solve the young lad's problem quickly—yet put it in perspective for him by teaching him the value of the "vile creatures".  He definitely came across as entitled, but he had been exhibiting those traits around the time that Jamie realized he was going to have to leave him. He was born with a title so it's no surprise he exhibits entitlement. What is interesting is that he is still young enough to be willing to learn to do things for himself. 

And, of course, everything that Murtagh did was perfect (as far as I am concerned). He's starting to settle back into himself since we first encountered him. Grumpy? Check, but less of the curmudgeon that he was with Ian.  Supportive of Claire? Check.  Suspicious of, and grudging towards Lord John? Check. Barely able to contain his contempt for Lord John's friend the Governor? Check. Quick to decipher why Jamie cared about Master William? Check. I particularly loved that he put Jamie on notice that he expected to know more about Willie's mother. As @gingerella pointed out. He's protective of Claire as well.  But also, he's known all of Jamie's secrets since Jamie was a wee lad—and kept them safe—so he has a right to know. 

Jamie's interactions with his son deserve closer inspection, but not right now. I'll just say that the writer did a great job doling out the bits of recognition (giving the boy credit for his memories, and the emotions he felt when he knew Jamie). I loved those. And Jamie's quiet satisfaction at being remembered. And the difficulty he had trying to answer Willie's (justified) questions truthfully without exposing the whole truth. Also his pride in being able to teach his son skills needed to be self sufficient instead of dependant on others to do the tough things for him.  We've seen Jamie "parent" Ian,  but Ian was mostly grown by that time, so this is really the first time we get to see what kind of a father Jamie would have been. (And through that we get to see what Jamie learned from his father's parenting.)

PLUS the only "peril" served to show the integrity and bravery inherent in William—be it by genetics or by Lord John's example—to take responsibility for his actions. It was almost as though—by seeing Jamie sacrifice himself to save Willie—he understood that he should be strong enough to take responsibility for his own mistakes.  

I think Jamie's declaration that William is his son will return at some future point. If Willie processed it—at the time—as a lie Jamie told to keep him safe; further rumination on why he chose THAT lie and used the words "his blood is my blood, take mine instead" is bound to occur to William. No?

I also loved the no-holds-barred exchanges between Claire and Lord John. She intuits he is hiding something and plans to find out what it is. We know from S03 that she was suspicious of him from the first time she met him. 

First she challenges him to declare if he is a spy for the governor. Then, even though he is sick, she refused to play the upper class polite—or as Lord John says: circumspect and circuitous—word games  and forces both Lord John and herself to examine their inner-most feelings. I loved that whole exchange as well. Each of them exposing their most private fears and ending with a deeper and more empathetic understanding of each other. So much that Claire can—with sincerity—encourage John to continue to seek for the love he deserves. 

I have not been Claire's biggest fan, but I've certainly come to appreciate her with this episode. 

AND I loved how they ended William and Lord John's visit. After William learned why Jamie would not look back at him when he left Helwater—"I didn't want to give ye false hope. I never expected to see you again."—we are shown William riding away, but choosing to turn and look back. A message. He does expect to see Jamie again.  <sigh>

Excuse me while I go clean up the puddles I've made singing the praises of this episode. 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Anothermi
grammer

[Anothermi]

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

Hell, I was shocked when he said that to John because we viewers knew what happened to him. I don't know why he felt he even had to offer himself like that. It was an odd plot line looking back at it, and the only purpose it seems to have served was to shocked Claire now in S04. 

I'd suggest that the purpose was more to establish Lord John's character as a man of principle. Yes, he was attracted to Jamie's body, but also to the person he'd come to know through their visits at Ardsmiur prison—up until he made the mistake of expressing his feelings by the touch of Jamie's hand.  So, his response to Jamie's proposal was to be indignant—to show that Jamie's friendship was the greater value to him.  And he said as much to Claire—he wouldn't want to "take" Jamie under those circumstances.  John is romantically in love with Jamie. His desire to possess him is no different than Jamie's desire to possess Claire.  But Jamie is not for him.

I also suggest that Claire's shock may have been her understanding the depth of Jamie's pain at having to abandon his son—given that he thought he'd never see Claire again nor his other child—and the lengths he felt he had to go to keep him safe. Further, the depth of gratitude Jamie would have felt toward Lord John who cared enough to accept the responsibility without Jamie's sacrifice. Claire could not be there for Jamie, but John was there for him. And, as she pointed out, Jamie had given John his son—the most precious  gift he had to give. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

I love the way you put all that above @Anothermi, yes to all of it! And it IS a lot for Claire to be jealous of when you lay it all out like that. John was there when she couldn't be. John protected Jamie by essentially hiding him away at Helwater, at least giving him a job with horses, something Jamie loved. And he took care of and raised Jamie's son. Claire is very aware that while she had the privilege of raising their daughter, Jamie has lost out on raising two daughters by her (I include Faith here since he lost his ability to raise her as well), and she knows he lost the ability to raise his son. I also think there is some jealously, maybe implied, maybe I'm reading into things, but in that time period for a man to have a son was everything! Yes a daughter could be cherished but a son was, for better or worse, more important, at least to have one. And Claire had two girls. Another woman, someone Claire knows nothing about (and I cannot remember but I dont think Jamie every really explained the details of how Willie was conceived did he? He only said he didn't love the mother) was able to give Jamie a son and she could not. That must also stick in her craw, despite being a modern woman from the 20th century, she is aware of what is important in the 1700's and sons were paramount.

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I love the way you put all that above @Anothermi, yes to all of it! And it IS a lot for Claire to be jealous of when you lay it all out like that. John was there when she couldn't be. John protected Jamie by essentially hiding him away at Helwater, at least giving him a job with horses, something Jamie loved. And he took care of and raised Jamie's son. Claire is very aware that while she had the privilege of raising their daughter, Jamie has lost out on raising two daughters by her (I include Faith here since he lost his ability to raise her as well), and she knows he lost the ability to raise his son. I also think there is some jealously, maybe implied, maybe I'm reading into things, but in that time period for a man to have a son was everything! Yes a daughter could be cherished but a son was, for better or worse, more important, at least to have one. And Claire had two girls. Another woman, someone Claire knows nothing about (and I cannot remember but I dont think Jamie every really explained the details of how Willie was conceived did he? He only said he didn't love the mother) was able to give Jamie a son and she could not. That must also stick in her craw, despite being a modern woman from the 20th century, she is aware of what is important in the 1700's and sons were paramount.

There is a deleted scene (from 306) where Jamie expands on telling Claire about how Geneva blackmailed him. I guess we were meant to think he told her at some point.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

There is a deleted scene (from 306) where Jamie expands on telling Claire about how Geneva blackmailed him. I guess we were meant to think he told her at some point.

How can we find it to watch?

[Scarlett45]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:02 PM, Anothermi said:

I'd suggest that the purpose was more to establish Lord John's character as a man of principle. Yes, he was attracted to Jamie's body, but also to the person he'd come to know through their visits at Ardsmiur prison—up until he made the mistake of expressing his feelings by the touch of Jamie's hand.  So, his response to Jamie's proposal was to be indignant—to show that Jamie's friendship was the greater value to him.  And he said as much to Claire—he wouldn't want to "take" Jamie under those circumstances.  John is romantically in love with Jamie. His desire to possess him is no different than Jamie's desire to possess Claire.  But Jamie is not for him.

I also suggest that Claire's shock may have been her understanding the depth of Jamie's pain at having to abandon his son—given that he thought he'd never see Claire again nor his other child—and the lengths he felt he had to go to keep him safe. Further, the depth of gratitude Jamie would have felt toward Lord John who cared enough to accept the responsibility without Jamie's sacrifice. Claire could not be there for Jamie, but John was there for him. And, as she pointed out, Jamie had given John his son—the most precious  gift he had to give. 

I agree with this. I think John is in love with Jaime (or at least a strong "in like") and was attracted to him when they first connected emotionally at the prison. When Jaime made it clear that John's sexual advances were not welcome (a touch of the hand was not any way aggressive), John backed the fuck up and was just his friend (which of course was the right thing to do, but shows that John is a moral human being who wouldn't use his position of power to sexually harass someone- even if he wouldn't have used those terms in the 18th century). 

Then when Jaime offered himself to John in exchange for looking after Willy- OF COURSE John is still hot for Jaime, but he is not going to sexually coerce the man, especially in exchange for looking after his son, because John is a morally upstanding guy who just happens to be in love with someone who isn't in love with him back, he is acting like an adult about it though. And I did think John takes the responsibility of looking after Willie and being an uncle (by marriage) to him seriously, given Lord John likely wont have any bio children of his own, Willie is his chance to raise and love a son, like Frank did for Brianna.

(bolding mine) You said it beautifully. John was able to protect Willy, give him a proper gentlemanly upbringing and keep him safe- with Jaime's blessing, this shows how deeply Jaime respected John. Of course Claire does not think Jaime is in love with John or anything, but she knows John is kind of in love with Jaime, and the intimacy of their relationship (emotional, not physical) has to sting because Claire was gone for so long.

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

and the intimacy of their relationship (emotional, not physical) has to sting because Claire was gone for so long.

Yes, I think this explains the discomfort Claire felt about Lord John since she first met him. SHE may not have realized it then—or even at the beginning of her interactions with him while he was sick—but by the time that conversation was over she understood well enough. 

I saw the Claire/ Lord John scenes here as mirroring the Claire/ Murtagh exchange in S01.  There will be a bond between Claire and Lord John as well—regardless of whether they meet again. They understand each other now and no longer feel threatened.

[Cdh20]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:39 AM, gingerella said:

How can we find it to watch?

 

Try this..

Edited August 23, 2021 by Cdh20

[gingerella]

Thanks so much for posting that. I have to say, it was really a glossing over of what happened with Geneva! And Claire barely reacted, which I find strange. No "What?!?" Just a smile of understanding?

[Cdh20]

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

Thanks so much for posting that. I have to say, it was really a glossing over of what happened with Geneva! And Claire barely reacted, which I find strange. No "What?!?" Just a smile of understanding?

Probably why they cut it, maybe better left offscreen? 

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Probably why they cut it, maybe better left offscreen? 

I would have thought it an important scene but they rushed it just to shoehorn it in and left no time for reactions. So weird considering how angry viewers were and that it was essentially another type of rape for Jamie. Really disappointed in the Show runners to have glossed over that.

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I would have thought it an important scene but they rushed it just to shoehorn it in and left no time for reactions. So weird considering how angry viewers were and that it was essentially another type of rape for Jamie. Really disappointed in the Show runners to have glossed over that.

At some point we are expected to believe Jamie & Claire discussed every detail of their 20 yrs apart, & the people they encountered.  Once in awhile we see ( on the show)a few things come up that they seem to have forgotten to share. 

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

I would have thought it an important scene but they rushed it just to shoehorn it in and left no time for reactions. So weird considering how angry viewers were and that it was essentially another type of rape for Jamie. Really disappointed in the Show runners to have glossed over that.

 

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

At some point we are expected to believe Jamie & Claire discussed every detail of their 20 yrs apart, & the people they encountered.  Once in awhile we see ( on the show)a few things come up that they seem to have forgotten to share. 

Yes, this is the problem. I tried a google search for the deleted scene before you posted it @Cdh20 but only found one where the show runner—Ron Moore—talked about deleted scenes from A. Malcolm (sorry, I didn't save it and don't know if I could find it again). He started out explaining that they packed so much into that one episode that it was longer than one hour and felt it could survive a bit of pruning (my word, not his).

Regarding the scene you've provided for us, he said that it just repeated information we already knew (i.e. were actually shown as their own scenes) so they felt they didn't need to prolong the episode repeating that information. What they didn't take into account was the fact that us viewers would want to know that Jamie DID tell Claire fully about why he lay with Geneva and got her with child.  Hell, I was suspicious about the fact that he said he'd told no one else except her about being Willie's father—leading her to believe no one else KNEW!  We knew that both Isabel and Lord John knew. There were specific scenes with each of them with Jamie  in the relevant episode. Isabel told him Geneva told her and Lord John told him anyone with eyes could see the resemblance when Jamie and Willie were together. 

@gingerella I didn't find Claire's carefully controlled reaction to Jamie's explanation (in the deleted scene) out of character, though. She had told him that she knew that he would have had a life (without her) during the 20 years that they were apart. What she didn't know was how she would react—even though I am sure she would have entertained the idea that he'd found someone else. I know Claire tended to give her emotions free reign when they first got together, but she's older and has more life experience now so it made sense to me that she kept herself in control and tried to just listen to him. He'd done that for her before—i.e. after the spanking thingy—so she seems to have learned something over those 20 years. 😇