Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[VCRTracking]

Edited June 7, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Jeebus Cripes]

I feel like Steve's bizarre ending did a disservice not only to his character but also to Tony's sacrifice at the end there. I'm sure the makers of the film wanted the major, OMG moment to be Iron Man dying, and everyone is all hung up on the Steve absurdity.

Every now and then I think to myself, shit, Tony is dead. 😥 I think about Nat's death more often because it pissed me off, and she's got that movie coming up. Anyhoo, thanks for stepping all over Tony's moment, Steven! 

[VCRTracking]

11 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I feel like Steve's bizarre ending did a disservice not only to his character but also to Tony's sacrifice at the end there. I'm sure the makers of the film wanted the major, OMG moment to be Iron Man dying, and everyone is all hung up on the Steve absurdity.

Eh, I doubt it was "everyone".  Only some who wanted something different for Steve. Mainstream audiences were still affected by Tony's death. I don't think people were like  "Oh, Cap got to be with Peggy, I'm no longer sad!"

[Zuleikha]

I don't know if there's a way to know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the audience was happy for Steve to find out that he lived a life with Peggy Carter. Fandom's a passionate bubble, but a bubble nevertheless. When you're inside it, it's easy to overestimate how widespread fandom-dominant opinions are.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I feel like Steve's bizarre ending did a disservice not only to his character but also to Tony's sacrifice at the end there. I'm sure the makers of the film wanted the major, OMG moment to be Iron Man dying, and everyone is all hung up on the Steve absurdity.

Every now and then I think to myself, shit, Tony is dead. 😥 I think about Nat's death more often because it pissed me off, and she's got that movie coming up. Anyhoo, thanks for stepping all over Tony's moment, Steven! 

Many people in the fandom are upset about Steve but I suspect that the majority of people have responded exactly how the Russo’s wanted. There’s even a petition to have Tony be resurrected. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Guest

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't know if there's a way to know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the audience was happy for Steve to find out that he lived a life with Peggy Carter. Fandom's a passionate bubble, but a bubble nevertheless. When you're inside it, it's easy to overestimate how widespread fandom-dominant opinions are.

True enough. I guess I don't personally know that many casual fans who haven't nerded out on every film. I suppose most people who don't pay too close attention to the timey-wimey stuff walk away with Stark's death being big talk. 

[ramble]

The kiddo wanted to see this again so I went. Second time around and I’m a bit meh about it still. For three hours it felt rushed at points and draggy in others. I was able to apprentice Tony’s death slightly more. Appreciate may not be the word, but I can only take Tony in small doses and since I expected him to die, initially I was pretty unmoved by it.  This time, knowing when he would get self-righteous, or otherwise annoying to me, I could block some of it out and therefore feel more when he died. His “I’m Iron Man” at the end worked a lot more for me on second viewing with that knowledge. 

I liked Scarlet Witch taking on Thanos even more on second viewing. The lady team-up still seemed inorganic to me, and on second viewing Nat’s absence felt even more wrong and made that scene feel somewhat off balance.

Fat Thor, knowing he would stay that way the whole time, didn’t bother me as much, but the casual edge of alcoholism bothered me more.  I do think Hemsworth did a good job of portraying vengeful to defeated Thor well. 

I’ve realized that Spiderman seems to be the one who can make me cry the easiest. His young, earnest portrayal works. 

I was truly interested to see if Steve’s ending would be more acceptable to me on a second go round. I thought, since I’ve always liked Peggy and the Steve/Peggy pairing, that now, knowing what happened, it might be better. Nope. Not at all. I can’t let the idea of Bucky being tortured while Cap gets his lifelong dance go. Not to mention Hydra growing inside Shield, the agency Peggy helped found. It goes against everything that the movies have shown Cap to be. Additionally, while I love Sam and his friendship with Steve, having him be the more prominent friend during the movie didn’t work for me at all. I realize we may be supposed to infer Bucky knew about Cap’s decision by a look and a comment, but I find that weak and insulting to their friendship. Frankly Steve’s ending really messed up this movie for me

Overall, this may have been a fitting end to a years-long arc, but for me personally, it didn’t fit too comfortably. 

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't know if there's a way to know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the audience was happy for Steve to find out that he lived a life with Peggy Carter. Fandom's a passionate bubble, but a bubble nevertheless. When you're inside it, it's easy to overestimate how widespread fandom-dominant opinions are.

I realise I may get knocked for this, but I did like it. It was very Steve. He'd set the world to rights, Bucky was good, and the memories of Peggy were fresh in his mind from his first trip back. Yes, I can see how wonky the execution was. But I like the idea at least.

When everyone railed against it, I was surprised. Frankly, your average megacorp is going to be conservative*. The writers will always have that in the back of their minds. They'll always go for a nice hetro relationship over the Stucky that a good chunk of fandom wants.

*Conservative: Bland. Inoffensive. Taking the safe route. Not in the current political sense.

[Danny Franks]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 1:52 AM, TVSpectator said:

Overall what I liked the best was Cap's ending. Call me a softie for his romance with Peggy (which they never forgot, cough Betty Ross/Bruce Banner, cough) nor acted like it was nothing to Steve nor the times we saw Peggy (assuming that Agent Carter IS MCU canon). Or even retcon out of existence (cough, Betty Ross/Bruce Banner, cough) and I can understand what they did there. I have assumed that Steve just went back in time and returned all of the Infinity Stones and then traveled back to the later 1940s and/or early 1950s and "retired" with Peggy. Becoming her secret husband (that we were kind of introduced in The Winter Soldier, but they never said who she married and was a big mystery) and fathered 2 or 3 kids with her. I like to think that this was more or less what he was supposed to have done and not creating a new timeline but something that was supposed to have happened. Although, that also implies that when Steve kissed Sharon he was either kissing his (now) great-niece and/or possible granddaughter (and I am aware of the fan theory that Peggy's "niece/nephew" could actually be her kids and a few things do kind of line up with it in Civil War. Like how Sharon said that Peggy was the first one to buy her a gun holster when her parents weren't too happy about. That to me screams more like a grandmother than grand-aunt defiance, in my opinion. Not to mention that in the show Agent Carter, it was stated that Peggy's only sibling died in WWII presumably without leaving behind any kids)

I think that's what the writers intended - Steve as the secret husband all along. As a narrative loop, it's neat and appealing to a writer, but at some point they decided to clarify the time travel rules and baldly state 'you can't go back and change the past, you can only change events to start a new timeline'. And as soon as they did that, the ending no longer works as written (and it never works for Steve's character, because he wouldn't go back in time and do nothing to help people. Nor would Peggy let him).

It seems like the Russos just accepted that Steve travelled back from his new timeline, where he had lived happily with Peggy, to sit on that bench but there was nothing in the movie to confirm that. And that has to be the intended ending, because the movie explicitly states that the alternative isn't possible. It's perfectly sensible to assume Steve Rogers set about moulding the world in his image, and with his knowledge of the future, from the 1940s onwards. That's a Marvel multiverse story I'd really like to read.

I don't have a problem with Steve getting back to 1947 or whenever, and saying to himself, "I need to go back to my original timeline in 2023, to give Sam my shield" and ensuring he had everything in place to do that. It seems completely within Steve's character to be that prepared.

The wrinkle is frustrating, because it could easily have been ironed out if they'd just had a line like "I came back to give you this". But overall, at the end of a three hour movie that caps a ten year storyline? I'm just not getting worked up about it. It's easily handwaveable, if people want it to be.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

It seems like the Russos just accepted that Steve travelled back from his new timeline, where he had lived happily with Peggy, to sit on that bench but there was nothing in the movie to confirm that. And that has to be the intended ending, because the movie explicitly states that the alternative isn't possible. 

I find it amusing that the Russo’s are trying to play it off as deliberate by saying that how Steve returned and where the shield came from are someone else’s story to be told. The writers are annoying but at least they're willing to admit that they didn’t really understand the time travel and that they may of lost objectivity with Steve’s ending. 

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

It's perfectly sensible to assume Steve Rogers set about moulding the world in his image, and with his knowledge of the future, from the 1940s onwards. That's a Marvel multiverse story I'd really like to read.

Since we’re not going to get this with Chris Evans I’d love to see this as a  episode of What If. 

[blugirlami21]

17 hours ago, Anduin said:

When everyone railed against it, I was surprised. Frankly, your average megacorp is going to be conservative*. The writers will always have that in the back of their minds. They'll always go for a nice hetro relationship over the Stucky that a good chunk of fandom wants.

I love Stucky but I never in a million years expected them to put that in the movie nor do I ever expect them to, that's what fanfiction is for.

This storyline wasn't right for any of the characters as they were before he went back. Peggy moved on. Period. I don't know that if Steve had asked her for a do over knowing the life she had led without him that she would have been on board. Why would she? By all accounts she had a great life.

There's something that doesn't sit right with me that he knew she lived her life a certain way and he decided that it should be something different. That what they had together would be better.

If this was really something they wanted to do from the beginning (it wasn't) they would have had Peggy be a spinster. They would have done their due diligence and have had her pine and mourn for Steve for the last 70 years. The payoff for them coming back together would have been amazing.

I don't care how many times the Russo's try to justify this crappy storyline. The writers have a completely different take on it and it shows. 

I saw this twice and Steve's ending is even worse the second time around.

But yes casual moviegoers seem happy with what happened. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by blugirlami21

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, blugirlami21 said:

This storyline wasn't right for any of the characters as they were before he went back. Peggy moved on. Period. I don't know that if Steve had asked her for a do over knowing the life she had led without him that she would have been on board. Why would she? By all accounts she had a great life.

There's something that doesn't sit right with me that he knew she lived her life a certain way and he decided that it should be something different. That what they had together would be better.

If this was really something they wanted to do from the beginning (it wasn't) they would have had Peggy be a spinster. They would have done their due diligence and have had her pine and mourn for Steve for the last 70 years. The payoff for them coming back together would have been amazing.

But yes casual moviegoers seem happy with what happened.

I never watched Agent Carter. I'm guessing that's where we saw her move on? But here's the thing. In the real world, people do get back together after time apart. My parents, for example. So I like that idea. Besides, she didn't have to take him back. She still has agency in that situation.

You'd prefer she mope about Steve for 70 years, spend all that time miserable, than have a happy life?

I still like the ending. Wonky, but in character.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Anduin

[Anduin]

39 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Edited June 8, 2019 by Anduin

[TVSpectator]

17 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I think that's what the writers intended - Steve as the secret husband all along. As a narrative loop, it's neat and appealing to a writer, but at some point they decided to clarify the time travel rules and baldly state 'you can't go back and change the past, you can only change events to start a new timeline'. And as soon as they did that, the ending no longer works as written (and it never works for Steve's character, because he wouldn't go back in time and do nothing to help people. Nor would Peggy let him).

It seems like the Russos just accepted that Steve travelled back from his new timeline, where he had lived happily with Peggy, to sit on that bench but there was nothing in the movie to confirm that. And that has to be the intended ending, because the movie explicitly states that the alternative isn't possible. It's perfectly sensible to assume Steve Rogers set about moulding the world in his image, and with his knowledge of the future, from the 1940s onwards. That's a Marvel multiverse story I'd really like to read.

I don't have a problem with Steve getting back to 1947 or whenever, and saying to himself, "I need to go back to my original timeline in 2023, to give Sam my shield" and ensuring he had everything in place to do that. It seems completely within Steve's character to be that prepared.

The wrinkle is frustrating, because it could easily have been ironed out if they'd just had a line like "I came back to give you this". But overall, at the end of a three hour movie that caps a ten year storyline? I'm just not getting worked up about it. It's easily handwaveable, if people want it to be.

The whole second timeline theory falls apart because I believed it was mentioned that Steve only has enough Pym Particles to put back the Infinity Stones back and to return. So he had no way to jump between timelines (if he did create a new one). Also again, the movie was very clear that you couldn't change the past. It was wordy but it was there. Here is the quote:

 

 

 

2

Quote

Bruce Banner: Clint, now you’re going to feel a little discombobulated from the chronoshift, don’t worry about it.
James Rhodes: Wait, wait a second, let me ask you something. If we can do this, you know, go back in time, why don’t we just find baby Thanos, you know, and…
[he mimes the strangling motion with his hands]
Bruce Banner: First of all, that’s horrible.
James Rhodes: It’s Thanos.
Bruce Banner: And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future.

Scott Lang: Look, we go back, we get the stones before Thanos gets them, Thanos doesn’t have the stones. Problem solved.
Clint Barton: Bingo.
Nebula: That’s not how it works.
Clint Barton: Well, that’s what I heard.
Bruce Banner: What? By who? Who told you that?
James Rhodes: Star Trek, Terminator, TimeCop, Time After Time.
Scott Lang: Quantum Leap.
James Rhodes: A Wrinkle in Time, Somewhere in Time.
Scott Lang: Hot Tub Time Machine.
James Rhodes: Hot Tub Time Machine. Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure. Basically, any movie that deals with time travel.
Scott Lang: Die Hard? No, that’s not…
James Rhodes: This is known.
Bruce Banner: I don’t know why everyone believes that, but that isn’t true. Think about it, if you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can’t now be changed by your new future.
Nebula: Exactly. 
Scott Lang: So Back to the Future’s a bunch of bullshit?

https://www.moviequotesandmore.com/avengers-endgame-best-quotes/

So there can't be another timeline but Cap just going back to spend life with Peggy. since Bruce said the past can't be changed my guess is that he basically told Peggy all of the crappy things that will happen but can't change but instead lived the rest of their lives together. 

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

I never watched Agent Carter. I'm guessing that's where we saw her move on? But here's the thing. In the real world, people do get back together after time apart. My parents, for example. So I like that idea. Besides, she didn't have to take him back. She still has agency in that situation.

You'd prefer she mope about Steve for 70 years, spend all that time miserable, than have a happy life?

I still like the ending. Wonky, but in character.

I did watch Agent Carter. It did imply that Peggy moved on with someone but it also took place like two or three years after WWII ended. So, I guess there was time for Peggy to still be with Cap, marry him. and have a family. Maybe that new relationship didn't last but Agent Carter was canceled at the end of Season 2. Also for all, we know Cap decided to settle with Peggy in 1970 and not in the late 1940s? But I still kind of like it. 

2 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I love Stucky but I never in a million years expected them to put that in the movie nor do I ever expect them to, that's what fanfiction is for.

This storyline wasn't right for any of the characters as they were before he went back. Peggy moved on. Period. I don't know that if Steve had asked her for a do over knowing the life she had led without him that she would have been on board. Why would she? By all accounts she had a great life.

There's something that doesn't sit right with me that he knew she lived her life a certain way and he decided that it should be something different. That what they had together would be better.

If this was really something they wanted to do from the beginning (it wasn't) they would have had Peggy be a spinster. They would have done their due diligence and have had her pine and mourn for Steve for the last 70 years. The payoff for them coming back together would have been amazing.

I don't care how many times the Russo's try to justify this crappy storyline. The writers have a completely different take on it and it shows. 

I saw this twice and Steve's ending is even worse the second time around.

But yes casual moviegoers seem happy with what happened. 

Yeah, I knew that Stucky was never going to happen. I was fine with hearing about Stucky and thought it was kind of funny that they made Bucky this major person in Cap's life but I clearly knew it was never going to happen. Also, in no way am I mad about that either and yes, that is why there is fanfiction. In my opinion, fanfiction shouldn't be actual canon because it messes up with actual canon. All it is, more or less, just wishful thinking but it won't happen.

[blugirlami21]

That's assuming he told her that she married and had kids in the future. 

We knew she moved on from what they told us in the movies. Peggy married a soldier and had two kids. She was married to her husband til his death. I personally liked that story better. Ymmv.

I also couldn't imagine living through time and knowing bad things will happen to the people you love and being ok with it because you got to live a happy life. I couldn't imagine a character like Steve being ok with that but again that's just my opinion.

And you know what? I'm over it. It is what it is. It's not the ending I would have written for Steve or Peggy but it is one I can ignore. It will have very little bearing on the series going forward.

Edited June 8, 2019 by blugirlami21

[Jeebus Cripes]

21 hours ago, ramble said:

I’ve realized that Spiderman seems to be the one who can make me cry the easiest. His young, earnest portrayal works. 

I'm not one to cry over films very often, but Tom Holland gets me every single time. If I even suspect he's gonna cry, I start getting choked up.

56 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

So there can't be another timeline but Cap just going back to spend life with Peggy. since Bruce said the past can't be changed my guess is that he basically told Peggy all of the crappy things that will happen but can't change but instead lived the rest of their lives together. 

That doesn't follow the film's established rules, though. Basically, Bruce's argument proves that Steve created an alternate timeline. Steve's past is that he didn't come out of the ice until 2011, and Bruce states that one cannot change their own past. If Steve travels back to the 40s and marries Peggy, he absolutely changes said past. There is no way around that. An alternate timeline is the only way his life with Peggy works if you follow the film's time travel logic.

[TVSpectator]

48 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I'm not one to cry over films very often, but Tom Holland gets me every single time. If I even suspect he's gonna cry, I start getting choked up.

That doesn't follow the film's established rules, though. Basically, Bruce's argument proves that Steve created an alternate timeline. Steve's past is that he didn't come out of the ice until 2011, and Bruce states that one cannot change their own past. If Steve travels back to the 40s and marries Peggy, he absolutely changes said past. There is no way around that. An alternate timeline is the only way his life with Peggy works if you follow the film's time travel logic.

Well according to Bruce you can't change the past. That is at least what he believed. Now maybe you can change the past but Bruce/Professor Hulk stated (and I listed the quote in an above post) that he told everyone you can't change the past. Not only that but there is the whole issue of Old Cap just showing up on that bench at the end. It pretty much implies that he spent the rest of his life in the same timeline. 

1 hour ago, blugirlami21 said:

That's assuming he told her that she married and had kids in the future. 

We knew she moved on from what they told us in the movies. Peggy married a soldier and had two kids. She was married to her husband til his death. I personally liked that story better. Ymmv.

I also couldn't imagine living through time and knowing bad things will happen to the people you love and being ok with it because you got to live a happy life. I couldn't imagine a character like Steve being ok with that but again that's just my opinion.

And you know what? I'm over it. It is what it is. It's not the ending I would have written for Steve or Peggy but it is one I can ignore. It will have very little bearing on the series going forward.

You have a good point but how would Cap find a way back to the original timeline if he created a new one? Or maybe the new timeline also pretty much ended like the original one with him going back in time to put the Infinity Stones back. 

I get what you are saying about Peggy moving on and in a way it makes sense. But it seems that Cap never moved on. He literally kissed (presumably) her grand-niece (which is another issue altogether, in my opinion) and then still kept her picture in a locket that he kept at all times. 

In my mind, Cap was in a time loop and was that husband that was "saved" by Captain America. Steve then married Peggy and Peggy just kept the charade going because Cap came back to her in the 1970s and they had like 2 or possibly 3 kids. 

[blugirlami21]

I mean according to reports there were plans to bring Sharon back for Steve so all this he was the husband all along stuff doesn't gel with me because that was never their original intention.

The writers said it was supposed to be an alternate timeline and that's what I'm going to believe happened. I think the directors saw there was some backlash and tried to offer a palatable explanation but their explanation doesn't fit with the storylines given in all the other movies.

Your line about Steve not being able to move on really got me thinking. The whole movie was about everyone's inability to move on and Tony is the only one who did it right. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by blugirlami21

[cambridgeguy]

9 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

You have a good point but how would Cap find a way back to the original timeline if he created a new one? Or maybe the new timeline also pretty much ended like the original one with him going back in time to put the Infinity Stones back. 

The same way the other characters did.  In the original timeline Loki didn't escape with the Space Stone.  Tony Stark didn't have an inexplicable heart attack as he was arguing about jurisdiction.  According to the rules the Avengers created an alternate timeline the moment they time traveled.  If they did their jobs carefully those timelines are virtually identical to the one we've seen but that doesn't mean they're not different.  This whole idea of Steve always being Peggy's husband in the timeline we've seen throughout the movies is the one that is directly contrary to the movie's rules unless you think Bruce, Tony, etc. were wrong about how time travel works.

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

The whole second timeline theory falls apart because I believed it was mentioned that Steve only has enough Pym Particles to put back the Infinity Stones back and to return. So he had no way to jump between timelines (if he did create a new one). Also again, the movie was very clear that you couldn't change the past. It was wordy but it was there. Here is the quote:

https://www.moviequotesandmore.com/avengers-endgame-best-quotes/

So there can't be another timeline but Cap just going back to spend life with Peggy. since Bruce said the past can't be changed my guess is that he basically told Peggy all of the crappy things that will happen but can't change but instead lived the rest of their lives together. 

He did only have enough Pym Particles for one trip... but then Pym came back from being Snapped and could make as many more as anyone could need. Also, the Pym in Steve's new timeline would have been able to make them for him at any point.

I think you're misunderstanding that scene. Bruce saying you can't change the past means that you literally can't change it, not that you mustn't.

This is the key quote that explains the movie's theory of time travel:

Quote

Bruce Banner: I don’t know why everyone believes that, but that isn’t true. Think about it, if you travel to the past, that past becomes your future. And your former present becomes the past. Which can’t now be changed by your new future.

So Steve going back is not creating a time loop, he's creating a new timeline for himself, from that point he travels to. This is why he can't just sit in Brooklyn for seventy years, then go and give his shield to Sam. Sam doesn't know him, in this timeline.

The Peggy Steve marries is not the Peggy whose funeral he attends in Civil War. That Peggy is the one who married some guy and had a happy life, some years after WWII. And the guy she married was not our time travelling Steve.

[Zuleikha]

Well according to Bruce you can't change the past. That is at least what he believed. Now maybe you can change the past but Bruce/Professor Hulk stated (and I listed the quote in an above post) that he told everyone you can't change the past.

That's not what Bruce said. What he said was "And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future." 

So you can change the past even according to Bruce. What you can't change is your present. This is different from movies like Back to the Future or Terminator where changes to the character's past are reflected in changes to the character's present. Hence, why paradox is such a big plot point in most time travel stories.

Endgame uses the Ancient One scene to explain how their time travel works: alternate timelines. Paradox cannot happen because every change a time traveler makes to the past creates an alternate universe with its own timeline and reality that DOES NOT AFFECT the time traveler's timeline. Steve returned the stones not to prevent paradox but rather to reduce the amount of alternate universe branches created by the Avengers actions (but we know at least two remain: Escaped Loki alternate universe and alternate universe without Nebula/Thanos/Thanos followers).

That's why time loop versus alternate reality matters. If Steve stayed in Timeline 1 of his past and was always Peggy's husband, he could do nothing that would change things that had already  happened (but also, he didn't change anything about Peggy's happy life. Her happy life would ALWAYS have been with Steve in this version). But if Steve was okay living in an alternate universe, he could do whatever the heck he wanted. Then he just needed to find a way to get from his universe back to Timeline 1 universe for the bench. But there are multiple ways that could have happened in established MCU continuity. He did have access to Pym particles, but he didn't need them because he wasn't time traveling: he was alternate universe hopping. 

[scriggle]

This video is a fairly good summary of all the problems I have with Steve's ending.

Captain America’s Ending Makes NO Sense

From this tumblr post

TABLE OF CONTENTS

LOGISTICS: 

Caps Ending (1:20) Explanation From Movie (1:42) POST Movie Explanation #1 (2:39) POST Movie Explanation #2 (3:52) POST Movie Explanation #3 (5:46) Screenwriters about stevepeggy in 2016 (6:58)

ENDGAME: 

Endgame “some people move on…” Line (7:42) Support Group Scene (9:06) Compass Scene (10:05) 1970s Scene (11:27) Peggys Character (12:16)

PREVIOUS MOVIES: 

Cap 2 Museum Scene (10:56) Cap 2 Peggy Hospital Scene (13:03) Agent Carter Season 1 Finale (13:32) AOU Wandas Flashback Vision (13:59) Steve Considering The Future His Home (14:33) background information (15:03) 

COUNTERARGUMENTS:

“steves allowed to change his mind” (16:18) “steves allowed to be selfish” (16:58) the TWO options for steves end (18:03)

[TVSpectator]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

He did only have enough Pym Particles for one trip... but then Pym came back from being Snapped and could make as many more as anyone could need. Also, the Pym in Steve's new timeline would have been able to make them for him at any point.

Was it mentioned that Hank made more Pym Particles? Because I know that Steve broke into his Hank's lab, in 1970, and ( this when Steve saw a late 30s/early 40s Peggy) then garb like 6 or 7 vials of Pym Particles. I am assuming that each trip would cost at least one full vial of Pym Particles. So if he did have 7 left over that would be enough to drop off the 6 Infinity Stones back to their respected spots and then one trip to come back. So wouldn't he need like 8 vials of Pym Particles to come back to Timeline 1 if he created a new timeline (which can be called TImeline 2), right? Also, does the Pym Particles also now just have the ability to jump between universes/timeline at will? Because they had to do some major science to get the time travel to work anyways but the concept was created by Scot. So Cap isn't a scientist so he would've needed at least one other person to help him create something that would travel back into Timeline 1 reality. 

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

That's not what Bruce said. What he said was "And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future." 

So you can change the past even according to Bruce. What you can't change is your present. This is different from movies like Back to the Future or Terminator where changes to the character's past are reflected in changes to the character's present. Hence, why paradox is such a big plot point in most time travel stories.

Endgame uses the Ancient One scene to explain how their time travel works: alternate timelines. Paradox cannot happen because every change a time traveler makes to the past creates an alternate universe with its own timeline and reality that DOES NOT AFFECT the time traveler's timeline. Steve returned the stones not to prevent paradox but rather to reduce the amount of alternate universe branches created by the Avengers actions (but we know at least two remain: Escaped Loki alternate universe and alternate universe without Nebula/Thanos/Thanos followers).

That's why time loop versus alternate reality matters. If Steve stayed in Timeline 1 of his past and was always Peggy's husband, he could do nothing that would change things that had already  happened (but also, he didn't change anything about Peggy's happy life. Her happy life would ALWAYS have been with Steve in this version). But if Steve was okay living in an alternate universe, he could do whatever the heck he wanted. Then he just needed to find a way to get from his universe back to Timeline 1 universe for the bench. But there are multiple ways that could have happened in established MCU continuity. He did have access to Pym particles, but he didn't need them because he wasn't time traveling: he was alternate universe hopping. 

What I am saying is that they can't change the past. They can't create new timelines/futures because according to Bruce that can't happen. And even the Ancient One mentioned that the Infinity Stones acts like anchors to prevent branching off into other timelines and if you take one away then you cause the universe to branch off into multiple timelines that can lead to nightmarish monsters. 

 

 

 

2

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think you're misunderstanding that scene. Bruce saying you can't change the past means that you literally can't change it, not that you mustn't.

This is the key quote that explains the movie's theory of time travel:

So Steve going back is not creating a time loop, he's creating a new timeline for himself, from that point he travels to. This is why he can't just sit in Brooklyn for seventy years, then go and give his shield to Sam. Sam doesn't know him, in this timeline.

The Peggy Steve marries is not the Peggy whose funeral he attends in Civil War. That Peggy is the one who married some guy and had a happy life, some years after WWII. And the guy she married was not our time travelling Steve.

Yeah, that is what I am saying here. You can't change it because it's the past. Sorry if I am not being clear enough. 

3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I mean according to reports there were plans to bring Sharon back for Steve so all this he was the husband all along stuff doesn't gel with me because that was never their original intention.

The writers said it was supposed to be an alternate timeline and that's what I'm going to believe happened. I think the directors saw there was some backlash and tried to offer a palatable explanation but their explanation doesn't fit with the storylines given in all the other movies.

Your line about Steve not being able to move on really got me thinking. The whole movie was about everyone's inability to move on and Tony is the only one who did it right. 

I haven't heard anything from the writers saying that Cap created another timeline (which raises more questions). I have heard that they are happy with the ending and that is pretty much it. 

[blugirlami21]

There are several articles about the writers and the directors disagreeing about the mechanics of what Steve does at the end.

Here's one of them: https://bgr.com/2019/05/06/avengers-endgame-box-office-sales-so-far-ending-controversy/

[ChromaKelly]

I was thinking about this. Again. (OK, I need a support group to help me Move On because I clearly can't). Anyway, I thought if Steve Rogers had access to a time machine, would he really just go and do what he was supposed to, or would he try to right some wrongs while he was there? 
Here's my theory - OurSteve goes back, has the dance with Peggy, and then rescues FrozenSteve and Bucky. FrozenSteve is the one that marries Peggy and comes back as an old man on the bench. OurSteve will return, it just happened after the movie ended. 

[Zuleikha]

TVSpectator, I can't quote for some reason. Bruce never says that they can't create alternate timelines/universes. On the contrary, he's explaining that's exactly what changes to the past will do. But the time traveler is still in Timeline Alpha, so the time traveler will never know what happens in these alternate universes (unless the time traveler has the ability to travel between them). We know this has to be what he meant because we SAW important changes to the past happen in Avengers: Endgame.

The Ancient One also doesn't say that the stones prevent alternate timelines/universes. What she says is that she can't give the Time Stone up because then HER timeline will be doomed (because of the plot of Doctor Strange, not anything to do with branching off as a timeline. There's a magical threat that the Ancient One is using the Time Stone to protect Earth from. If she gives it up, she follows time into the new Timeline Beta). That's why the Avengers promise to return the stones. Possibly, Cap coming back and giving her the Time Stone is enough to prevent the creation of Timeline Beta and she simply moves forward in Timeline Alpha. Possibly it's not, and her timeline branches off into Timeline Beta where she becomes Timeline Beta Ancient One and potentially makes different choices with different results from what we saw in Dr. Strange. But EITHER way Timeline Alpha Ancient One still exists and events in Timeline Alpha happen as they always did (i.e. what we saw in Dr. Strange).

That's why if we go with the alternate universe explanation for the Cap and Peggy, the Cap can do whatever he wants to do in his new Timeline (let's call it Timeline Gamma). Timeline Alpha's Peggy is a separate person. She does what she has always done in Timeline Alpha. Meanwhile, we have NO IDEA what happens in Timeline Gamma with Timeline Gamma Peggy because it's not the timeline we followed and it has no effect on the timeline we followed. There are TWO Captain Americas in Timeline Gamma (original Timeline Gamma Steve, who is slumbering in the ice and Timeline Alpha Cap, who is now living and aging in Timeline Gamma). In this version, Timeline Alpha Cap can make lots of changes and Timeline Gamma may be REALLY different from Timeline Alpha. I imagine Steve would have woken up Timeline Gamma Steve and had two Steves running around as well as rescued Bucky and prevented the infiltration of S.H.I.E.L.D. Timeline Gamma probably bears very little resemblance to Timeline Alpha (although the Snappening may have still happened since most of what Thanos did wouldn't have been affected by changes on Earth).

We have no idea how Cap returned to Timeline Alpha from Timeline Gamma. Because helping Cap travel between the timelines would be happening in Timeline Gamma, we didn't see any of it and the events we did see in Timeline Alpha are irrelevant. But there are plenty of characters in the MCU who Cap could turn to for help--with the likeliest being the magic users, Dr. Strange and Wong.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Was it mentioned that Hank made more Pym Particles? Because I know that Steve broke into his Hank's lab, in 1970, and ( this when Steve saw a late 30s/early 40s Peggy) then garb like 6 or 7 vials of Pym Particles. I am assuming that each trip would cost at least one full vial of Pym Particles. So if he did have 7 left over that would be enough to drop off the 6 Infinity Stones back to their respected spots and then one trip to come back. So wouldn't he need like 8 vials of Pym Particles to come back to Timeline 1 if he created a new timeline (which can be called TImeline 2), right? Also, does the Pym Particles also now just have the ability to jump between universes/timeline at will? Because they had to do some major science to get the time travel to work anyways but the concept was created by Scot. So Cap isn't a scientist so he would've needed at least one other person to help him create something that would travel back into Timeline 1 reality. 

Scott is holding one vial when he says that it’s the last of the pym particles and that they only have enough for one round trip each. Even in the unlikely event Hank couldn’t make more the vials Steve stolen should have been more than enough for him to make many trips. 

Pym Particles simply give people the ability to go into and out of the quantum realm. Tony’s device is what made time travel possible. 

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

There are several articles about the writers and the directors disagreeing about the mechanics of what Steve does at the end.

Here's one of them: https://bgr.com/2019/05/06/avengers-endgame-box-office-sales-so-far-ending-controversy/

Your article states that the writers and the directors have two different endings in mind. The writers seem to think that Cap didn't create another timeline and just gave up on the fact that he couldn't change anything and that he was afraid to change anything because we might've ended up with another future. Also, the writers drop the year 1948 (and they were also involved with the show Agent Carter. The show was canceled at the end of season 2 and the year for that Season was sated to be 1947), Here is the quote from the writers:

 

 

 

Quote

Fandango: So people are asking… Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline, it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the “Steve is in an alternate reality” theory.

I do believe that there is simply a period in world history from about ’48 to now where there are two Steve Rogers. And anyway, for a large chunk of that one of them is frozen in ice. So it’s not like they’d be running into each other.

https://bgr.com/2019/05/06/spider-man-far-from-home-second-trailer-what-happens-after-endgame/

The Russos seem to think that Cap created another timeline (which raises a lot of questions on its own, in my opinion). 

Quote

Q: Did Captain America’s action at the end affect the timeline? Does that mean there was a time where two CA existed in a same universe?

A: To me, CA’s action in the end wasn’t the fact he wanted to change anything, it’s more like me has made a choice. He chose to go back to past and lived with the one he loved for the rest of his life. The time travel in this movie created an alternate reality. He lived a completely different life in that world. We don’t know how exactly his life turned out, but I’d like to believe he still helped many others when they were needed in that world. Yes, there were two CA in that reality, it’s just like what Hulk said, what happened in the past has already happened. If you go back to past, you simply created a new reality. The characters in this movie created new timeline when they went back to the past, but it had no effect to the prime universe. What happened in the past 22 movies was still canon.

https://bgr.com/2019/05/06/avengers-endgame-box-office-sales-so-far-ending-controversy/

Okay, so I know that Steve ending up with Peggy is more fanfiction than anything else and I am just guessing that one actually knows and/or they do know the answer but are keeping things vague for future phases. 

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

TVSpectator, I can't quote for some reason. Bruce never says that they can't create alternate timelines/universes. On the contrary, he's explaining that's exactly what changes to the past will do. But the time traveler is still in Timeline Alpha, so the time traveler will never know what happens in these alternate universes (unless the time traveler has the ability to travel between them). We know this has to be what he meant because we SAW important changes to the past happen in Avengers: Endgame.

The Ancient One also doesn't say that the stones prevent alternate timelines/universes. What she says is that she can't give the Time Stone up because then HER timeline will be doomed (because of the plot of Doctor Strange, not anything to do with branching off as a timeline. There's a magical threat that the Ancient One is using the Time Stone to protect Earth from. If she gives it up, she follows time into the new Timeline Beta). That's why the Avengers promise to return the stones. Possibly, Cap coming back and giving her the Time Stone is enough to prevent the creation of Timeline Beta and she simply moves forward in Timeline Alpha. Possibly it's not, and her timeline branches off into Timeline Beta where she becomes Timeline Beta Ancient One and potentially makes different choices with different results from what we saw in Dr. Strange. But EITHER way Timeline Alpha Ancient One still exists and events in Timeline Alpha happen as they always did (i.e. what we saw in Dr. Strange).

That's why if we go with the alternate universe explanation for the Cap and Peggy, the Cap can do whatever he wants to do in his new Timeline (let's call it Timeline Gamma). Timeline Alpha's Peggy is a separate person. She does what she has always done in Timeline Alpha. Meanwhile, we have NO IDEA what happens in Timeline Gamma with Timeline Gamma Peggy because it's not the timeline we followed and it has no effect on the timeline we followed. There are TWO Captain Americas in Timeline Gamma (original Timeline Gamma Steve, who is slumbering in the ice and Timeline Alpha Cap, who is now living and aging in Timeline Gamma). In this version, Timeline Alpha Cap can make lots of changes and Timeline Gamma may be REALLY different from Timeline Alpha. I imagine Steve would have woken up Timeline Gamma Steve and had two Steves running around as well as rescued Bucky and prevented the infiltration of S.H.I.E.L.D. Timeline Gamma probably bears very little resemblance to Timeline Alpha (although the Snappening may have still happened since most of what Thanos did wouldn't have been affected by changes on Earth).

We have no idea how Cap returned to Timeline Alpha from Timeline Gamma. Because helping Cap travel between the timelines would be happening in Timeline Gamma, we didn't see any of it and the events we did see in Timeline Alpha are irrelevant. But there are plenty of characters in the MCU who Cap could turn to for help--with the likeliest being the magic users, Dr. Strange and Wong.

But it's literally in the movie. Bruce says that they can't create an alternate timeline because they can't change the past. Just that we experience things in a chronology order. It's worded really bad, in my opinion, but that to me is the gist of what they are saying in the movie. Now The Ancient One does refute this but she says that if the Infinity Stones are removed they the do create another timeline but who knows if that will even play out given that the MCU has drop hints to other things and then just forgotten about it later.  

Also, you can quote a person by clicking the " symbol that is under each post. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

9 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I was thinking about this. Again. (OK, I need a support group to help me Move On because I clearly can't). Anyway, I thought if Steve Rogers had access to a time machine, would he really just go and do what he was supposed to, or would he try to right some wrongs while he was there? 
Here's my theory - OurSteve goes back, has the dance with Peggy, and then rescues FrozenSteve and Bucky. FrozenSteve is the one that marries Peggy and comes back as an old man on the bench. OurSteve will return, it just happened after the movie ended. 

Headcanon accepted. You deserve a raise and a promotion for this theory! I can now sleep soundly. I will hear of nothing else from here on. 

5 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

But it's literally in the movie. Bruce says that they can't create an alternate timeline because they can't change the past. Just that we experience things in a chronology order. It's worded really bad, in my opinion, but that to me is the gist of what they are saying in the movie. Now The Ancient One does refute this but she says that if the Infinity Stones are removed they the do create another timeline but who knows if that will even play out given that the MCU has drop hints to other things and then just forgotten about it later.  

Changing the past is what creates the alternate timeline. You can't affect the outcome of your present by going into the past and changing things. When Loki escapes with the Tesseract, he is now in an alternate timeline. The Loki that we saw die in Infinity War is very much dead now, but there is another Loki running around very much alive. Bruce never says anything about not being able to create an alternate timeline, only that you can't change your own.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Guest]

6 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

But it's literally in the movie. Bruce says that they can't create an alternate timeline because they can't change the past. Just that we experience things in a chronology order. It's worded really bad, in my opinion, but that to me is the gist of what they are saying in the movie. Now The Ancient One does refute this but she says that if the Infinity Stones are removed they the do create another timeline but who knows if that will even play out given that the MCU has drop hints to other things and then just forgotten about it later.  

Bruce never actually says that you can’t create an alternate timeline. He only says that you can’t create an alternate past within your own timeline.

Either way I think that within the MCU The Ancient One is more likely to be right. Bruce is just working with theoretical concepts while The Ancient One controls the time stone. At least on earth the sorcerers are the most knowledgeable of all things related to the infinity stones. 

In his AMA Feige said that there is one right answer but he didn’t not say which one it was. I suspect that it will be officially addressed either in Far From Home or the Loki series. 

[TVSpectator]

8 hours ago, Dani said:

Bruce never actually says that you can’t create an alternate timeline. He only says that you can’t create an alternate past within your own timeline.

Either way I think that within the MCU The Ancient One is more likely to be right. Bruce is just working with theoretical concepts while The Ancient One controls the time stone. At least on earth the sorcerers are the most knowledgeable of all things related to the infinity stones. 

In his AMA Feige said that there is one right answer but he didn’t not say which one it was. I suspect that it will be officially addressed either in Far From Home or the Loki series. 

 

 

1

10 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Changing the past is what creates the alternate timeline. You can't affect the outcome of your present by going into the past and changing things. When Loki escapes with the Tesseract, he is now in an alternate timeline. The Loki that we saw die in Infinity War is very much dead now, but there is another Loki running around very much alive. Bruce never says anything about not being able to create an alternate timeline, only that you can't change your own.

Nope, both of you are wrong. Bruce says this:

 

 

 

Quote

Bruce Banner: And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future.

He literally says the future doesn't change. So there are no new futures (aka timelines). Even the writer of the movie came out and said such as well. 

[starri]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

He literally says the future doesn't change. So there are no new futures (aka timelines). Even the writer of the movie came out and said such as well. 

He says the future of the time traveler's reality doesn't change.  The Ancient One then reveals that a change to the past causes a new timeline to branch off.

ETA:  Time travel in Marvel Comics has always worked like that.  The best example I can give is of the seminal X-Men story, Days of Future Past, where Kitty Pryde travels back in time for the then-future (2013) where the mutants live under the dystopian thumb of the Sentinels.  Future Kitty's warnings prevent "our" universe from following the same path, but it's shown later that the future for her still happened.  Rachel Summers, the daughter of Cyclops from that future, ends up coming back in time and joining the contemporary X-Men.

[Jeebus Cripes]

5 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Nope, both of you are wrong. Bruce says this:

Bruce Banner: And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future.

He literally says the future doesn't change. So there are no new futures (aka timelines). Even the writer of the movie came out and said such as well. 

[TVSpectator]

6 hours ago, starri said:

He says the future of the time traveler's reality doesn't change.  The Ancient One then reveals that a change to the past causes a new timeline to branch off.

ETA:  Time travel in Marvel Comics has always worked like that.  The best example I can give is of the seminal X-Men story, Days of Future Past, where Kitty Pryde travels back in time for the then-future (2013) where the mutants live under the dystopian thumb of the Sentinels.  Future Kitty's warnings prevent "our" universe from following the same path, but it's shown later that the future for her still happened.  Rachel Summers, the daughter of Cyclops from that future, ends up coming back in time and joining the contemporary X-Men.

What Bruce was talking about was that you can't change the past. No second timeline at all. Just that you will experience things differently. Hell, even the writers were agreeing with that concept. Also, it's this trope:

 

 

 

Quote

Stable Time Loop

Through Applied Phlebotinum, Functional Magic, or some other means, our heroes travel back to the past. In the past, they wind up being responsible for the very events that underpin their own "present." This creates a chicken-and-egg scenario, in which the looping sequence of events has no clear beginning. The result of breaking the zeroth law of Time Travel: do not cause the event you went back to prevent.

This is also the basic premise of how Time Travel would work, according to Albert Einstein. Simply put, even if it were possible to travel back in time, you would not be able to change any events in the past, because they've already happened. No matter your intentions, everything that you did would only fulfill the past. The only thing that would change is your perception of the events. (Thus explaining Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act.)

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop

Edited June 9, 2019 by TVSpectator

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

What Bruce was talking about was that you can't change the past. No second timeline at all. Just that you will experience things differently. Hell, even the writers were agreeing with that concept. Also, it's this trope:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop

What it comes to, in mind at least, is that Feige and the Russo bros are responsible for the overall vision of this movie. They told the screenwriters the major plot points they wanted to happen, and they filled in the blanks. Now, it may very well be that the writers interpretation of how time travel works is not in line with what the Russo bros believe. At the end of the day, though, the directors and producers trump the writers. If the Russo's are telling me Steve lived in an alternate timeline, then I'm accepting that. And in spite of what you keep stating, the film does support alternate timelines. 

[TVSpectator]

19 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

What it comes to, in mind at least, is that Feige and the Russo bros are responsible for the overall vision of this movie. They told the screenwriters the major plot points they wanted to happen, and they filled in the blanks. Now, it may very well be that the writers interpretation of how time travel works is not in line with what the Russo bros believe. At the end of the day, though, the directors and producers trump the writers. If the Russo's are telling me Steve lived in an alternate timeline, then I'm accepting that. And in spite of what you keep stating, the film does support alternate timelines. 

I would say that Fergie told the screenwriters what he wanted but I don't think that Russos are that much involved in the direction of what they MCU should go into (as a whole). I get that they do speak with some authority but, again, they are being told what to film by the script. The scriptwriters are the ones creating the story, the directors make it real. Sort of like making a novel come to life.  So I personally would listen to the scriptwriters over the Russos. But again, I guess since they are directing things they can have lines thrown in at the last minute but again, if the intent of the script, at the time of it being written, was that Cap didn't create another timeline then wouldn't that be the original intent? Right?

Edited June 10, 2019 by TVSpectator

[Raja]

I prefer Trekkie rules. If it didn't air then it is not canon, or an untested theory in this specific movie. And thus if the director, since he is in charge in Hollywood hierarchy not the screen writers, left something out then fan head canon can fill it in. But in any case post movie interviews from writers, actors or the directors hold no more weight than fan head canon since the director of the next movie can easily change the unaired statement of intent. And we face the very real possibility that to give Sony Tom Holland's Spider-Man back to add with their successful Venom film that the next movie, Spider-Man Far From Home just  might proclaim a winner in the closed time loop versus alternate timeline/multiverse argument

When speaking to us both the Ancient One and Professor Hulk were talking about a theory which only later got put to the test when the Pym particles were used to go into the quantum realm to grab infinity stones and move them to the future. Now with actual observed experience the prevailing theory of MCU time travel scientist characters might just change

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I would say that Fergie told the screenwriters what he wanted but I don't think that Russos are that much involved in the direction of what they MCU should go into (as a whole). I get that they do speak with some authority but, again, they are being told what to film by the script. The scriptwriters are the ones creating the story, the directors make it real. Sort of like making a novel come to life.  So I personally would listen to the scriptwriters over the Russos. But again, I guess since they are directing things they can have lines thrown in at the last minute but again, if the intent of the script, at the time of it being written, was that Cap didn't create another timeline then wouldn't that be the original intent? Right?

I think you're assigning too much creative control to the writers here. They were hired to write this story, and there are directives they have to follow. It's not the same as someone like Quentin Tarantino, who writes and directs his own material . Even Joss Whedon had to make changes to his scripts to fall in line with what Marvel wanted. What I'm saying is that somewhere along the way, the writers and the directors/producers were no longer on the same page. That's an embarrassing oversight, but it seems to be what happened here. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I think you're assigning too much creative control to the writers here. They were hired to write this story, and there are directives they have to follow. It's not the same as someone like Quentin Tarantino, who writes and directs his own material . Even Joss Whedon had to make changes to his scripts to fall in line with what Marvel wanted. What I'm saying is that somewhere along the way, the writers and the directors/producers were no longer on the same page. That's an embarrassing oversight, but it seems to be what happened here. 

No, I agree that at some point they weren't on the same page. It kinds of reminds me of that "8 Years Later" card where some were going "what?". Feige in an interview made it sound like that wasn't a mistake and then you have (again) the Russos saying it was. It's just I feel like the writers would know more (along with Feige) because they wrote the script and the Russos did their own thing. But really who knows. Personally, I could see an alternate timeline but I also could see it being a stable timeline loop within the same timeline. 

[Zuleikha]

 Also, it's this trope:

No, it's not. Steve-as-Peggy's-husband may have been intended to be the stable time loop trope, although nothing in the movie locks it into that. However, time travel as a whole is very, very clearly not the stable time loop trope.

The movie shows us the characters clearly and significantly changing the past. Nebula and Thanos time travel from the past to the present AND ARE KILLED! That is 100% inconsistent with stable time loop. It is 100% inconsistent with Back to the Future type time travel because Nebula/Thanos's death have no effect on the present-day reality. The only way to reconcile the events that we see in Endgame is with the alternate universe/branching timelines theory. Fortunately, that's also EXACTLY how the Ancient One explains time travel (and IMHO, Bruce as well, but whatever... we can mileage vary on that. He was just operating on theory anyway whereas the Ancient One actually knows how time works). 
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Feige in an interview made it sound like that wasn't a mistake and then you have (again) the Russos saying it was. 

Do you have a link to that Feige interview? I’d be curious to read his input but all I have seen is his AMA where he doesn’t give any specific answer. 

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

 Personally, I could see an alternate timeline but I also could see it being a stable timeline loop within the same timeline. 

A stable time loop would only address Steve’s story but it does not resolve the issue of Loki stealing the tesseract or 2014 Thanos dying. 

I have the opposite conclusion about the disagreement between the Russo’s and the writers. My guess is the the Russo’s are saying it’s an alternate timeline because that matches up with the larger MCU plans.

Steve always being Peggy’s husband creates big problems for Sharon. If Steve was always her uncle I can’t see them deciding to bring her back and dealing with that complication. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

No, it's not. Steve-as-Peggy's-husband may have been intended to be the stable time loop trope, although nothing in the movie locks it into that. However, time travel as a whole is very, very clearly not the stable time loop trope.

The movie shows us the characters clearly and significantly changing the past. Nebula and Thanos time travel from the past to the present AND ARE KILLED! That is 100% inconsistent with stable time loop. It is 100% inconsistent with Back to the Future type time travel because Nebula/Thanos's death have no effect on the present-day reality. The only way to reconcile the events that we see in Endgame is with the alternate universe/branching timelines theory. Fortunately, that's also EXACTLY how the Ancient One explains time travel (and IMHO, Bruce as well, but whatever... we can mileage vary on that. He was just operating on theory anyway whereas the Ancient One actually knows how time works). 
 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

No, it's not. Steve-as-Peggy's-husband may have been intended to be the stable time loop trope, although nothing in the movie locks it into that. However, time travel as a whole is very, very clearly not the stable time loop trope.

The movie shows us the characters clearly and significantly changing the past. Nebula and Thanos time travel from the past to the present AND ARE KILLED! That is 100% inconsistent with stable time loop. It is 100% inconsistent with Back to the Future type time travel because Nebula/Thanos's death have no effect on the present-day reality. The only way to reconcile the events that we see in Endgame is with the alternate universe/branching timelines theory. Fortunately, that's also EXACTLY how the Ancient One explains time travel (and IMHO, Bruce as well, but whatever... we can mileage vary on that. He was just operating on theory anyway whereas the Ancient One actually knows how time works). 
 

Exactly. 

If no alternate realities are created the entire post-Avengers MCU would be rewritten. The Dark World and both Guardians movies would be completely changed. Also Steve’s “Hail Hydra” would completely alter the events of Winter Soldier and could easily lead to a earth where Project Insight succeeds killing all the earth based heroes. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Guest

[TVSpectator]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

Exactly. 

If no alternate realities are created the entire post-Avengers MCU would be rewritten. The Dark World and both Guardians movies would be completely changed. Also Steve’s “Hail Hydra” would completely alter the events of Winter Soldier and could easily lead to a earth where Project Insight succeeds killing all the earth based heroes. 

Steve just pretended to be Hydra. Not really that shattering to think that another Captain America (the past version with no memory of saying "Hail Hydra") is walking around. Also, I guess it's not too far of a stretch to think that Loki tried to scurry away with the Mind/Space Stone after The Avengers but was caught again. Also, Past Cap thought he was fighting Loki (a being known to change forms time-to-time), Thanos could've been snap back to 2014 and thus the line where it was stated that Thanos "knew" Tony made more sense, Gamora and Present Nebula could've been Snapped back to the past as well. Or Tony could just wish away that Thanos never went to 2014 with the Infinity Stones, etc...

6 hours ago, Dani said:

Do you have a link to that Feige interview? I’d be curious to read his input but all I have seen is his AMA where he doesn’t give any specific answer. 

A stable time loop would only address Steve’s story but it does not resolve the issue of Loki stealing the tesseract or 2014 Thanos dying. 

I have the opposite conclusion about the disagreement between the Russo’s and the writers. My guess is the the Russo’s are saying it’s an alternate timeline because that matches up with the larger MCU plans.

Steve always being Peggy’s husband creates big problems for Sharon. If Steve was always her uncle I can’t see them deciding to bring her back and dealing with that complication. 

Here is a link to the interview in question. Feige seems to avoid calling it a mistake and makes it sound like it was intentional or something, in my opinion:

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1712910/kevin-feige-finally-addressed-the-spider-man-homecoming-timeline-controversy

The Russos kind of backtrack it and flatly state that it is a mistake a bit later. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. The MCU seems to be not that well planned out. Case in point IF the Homecoming timeline is a mistake then they made a mistake and f their own timeline up. IF Cap was somehow responsible to create another alternative universe then clearly it seems that the writers and directors are not on the same page. MCU has a ton of retcons as well so again, it's not as perfect as it should be, in my opinion, and they are probably just making stuff up as they go along. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by TVSpectator

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

Steve just pretended to be Hydra. Not really that shattering to think that another Captain America (the past version with no memory of saying "Hail Hydra") is walking around.

Actually it could be. As soon as Rumlow and Sitwell tell Pierce that Steve took the scepter it would come out that he knows about Hydra. There are possible solutions that prevent it from changing Winter Soldier too much but it’s one more off screen retcon to make the writers plan even remotely work. 

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Thanos could've been snap back to 2014 and thus the line where it was stated that Thanos "knew" Tony made more sense, Gamora and Present Nebula could've been Snapped back to the past as well. Or Tony could just wish away that Thanos never went to 2014 with the Infinity Stones, etc...

Thanos and his army could have been sent back but Present Nebula is seen at the end of Endgame with the rest of the Guardians.

2014 Thanos never going to the future would rewrite the present creating a paradox because then Tony would not need to use the Gauntlet to stop 2014 Thanos. 

2 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Here is a link to the interview in question. Feige seems to avoid calling it a mistake and makes it sound like it was intentional or something, in my opinion:

 https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1712910/kevin-feige-finally-addressed-the-spider-man-homecoming-timeline-controversy

Edited 1 hour ago by TVSpectator

Ok. I thought you were saying that Feige said something in Endgame wasn’t mistake. It will be interesting to see when there is on screen confirmation of which version Feige considered to be right. 

[Danny Franks]

On 6/10/2019 at 6:53 AM, Zuleikha said:

No, it's not. Steve-as-Peggy's-husband may have been intended to be the stable time loop trope, although nothing in the movie locks it into that. However, time travel as a whole is very, very clearly not the stable time loop trope.

The movie shows us the characters clearly and significantly changing the past. Nebula and Thanos time travel from the past to the present AND ARE KILLED! That is 100% inconsistent with stable time loop. It is 100% inconsistent with Back to the Future type time travel because Nebula/Thanos's death have no effect on the present-day reality. The only way to reconcile the events that we see in Endgame is with the alternate universe/branching timelines theory. Fortunately, that's also EXACTLY how the Ancient One explains time travel (and IMHO, Bruce as well, but whatever... we can mileage vary on that. He was just operating on theory anyway whereas the Ancient One actually knows how time works). 
 

The biggest paradox in the entire movie would be Nebula killing her past self. Under the time loop theory rules, it would be impossible - She would have died before she could kill past Nebula, therefore couldn't have killed past Nebula, nor could she have done any of the things she's done in any of the MCU movies.

That in itself is proof that Steve can't go back to be Peggy's husband in this timeline. Because Peggy's husband already lived and died, and that's immutable. Just like our Nebula did all the thing she did in Guardians, Guardians 2 and Infinity War, to lead her to killing her past self.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Zuleikha]

Thanos could've been snap back to 2014 and thus the line where it was stated that Thanos "knew" Tony made more sense, Gamora and Present Nebula could've been Snapped back to the past as well

I've been honestly wondering whether you're just trolling us for a while now, but no, they were not snapped backwards in time. They were killed. We saw them get dusted (minus Gamora). 

Because Peggy's husband already lived and died, and that's immutable.

Is that immutable? Peggy's husband was never named, but I can't remember what she said about their life together. Although if the only thing we have is her telling Cap that her husband died, that could be fanwanked as her intentionally misdirecting him. But I like alternate universe better than time loop anyway, so I'm happy to take that as canonical proof that Cap/Peggy HAD to be alternate universe.

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Is that immutable? Peggy's husband was never named, but I can't remember what she said about their life together. Although if the only thing we have is her telling Cap that her husband died, that could be fanwanked as her intentionally misdirecting him. But I like alternate universe better than time loop anyway, so I'm happy to take that as canonical proof that Cap/Peggy HAD to be alternate universe.

It is if the rules of time travel in this movie are followed. Her husband was in the past, and Steve can't go back to change that in this timeline. If he goes back and stops Peggy from marrying the guy, then he creates a new timeline.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Peggy's husband was never named, but I can't remember what she said about their life together.

Welllll, in Winter Soldier, I think it was? We saw that interview with Peggy, where she stated she met her husband doing the work she did (sorry my brain's all fuzzy with the details) and she credited Steve for making it possible to meet him (her husband). And I don't subscribe to the theory she was talking about thanking Steve for introducing her to Steve.

All this back and forth is giving me the headaches and my head wants to explode from all the whiplash. For my own sanity, I'm going to ignore those last few minutes where Old Steve showed up.

[festivus]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

All this back and forth is giving me the headaches and my head wants to explode from all the whiplash. For my own sanity, I'm going to ignore those last few minutes where Old Steve showed up.

Yeah me too. I no longer care anymore. They broke me. Instead, I'm watching the latest season of Legends of Tomorrow and I don't care how convoluted the time stuff gets, that show is fun as hell. It makes me happy.