19 Things I Hate About You: How the Duggars Infuriate

[GEML]

This is what I was saying for Johannah -- I think she would have really thrived with the old homeschool style they used in the past, where they went out all the time and did stuff.  Even the older girls got their hands dirty.  Now it seems to be just working on the TV show, which isn't such a great thing if you have ADD tendencies or even just a lot of energy and like the learn as you move.

Josie may have some toilet training issues stemming from her digestive system, which was problematic going back to her premature birth.  I'll admit, I'm not sure what all is involved there, but I imagine it's a lot more complicated than the "lactose intolerant" that they brushed it off as, since it seemed to imply that she would need surgery or something down the road.  

[NausetGirl]

I agree. The younger kids have pretty much gone off the rails since Michelle and Boob checked out of parenting. Although I don't disagree that Josie may have some delays, I think a lot of her hyperactivity is due to the fact that she's never been taught how to behave. Even kids in preschool are made to work and play in small groups, have quiet time, have nap time etc. In the Duggar household it's just a random free for all. There's no discernable schedule or routine to teach the younger kids how to function in a structured setting.

 

Yep, this is all completely possible. Josie's deal may totally be due to just being a Duggar - in the Duggar environment. But whatever the cause, she does deserve some help. Although I guess this is one more thing that Boob and Mechelle are leaving in God's hands.

I have no idea what Josie normally behaves like, since I don't watch the show (I'm here for the snark).  But I did watch some of the wedding (I wanted to see the "stampede" out of the church), and (this is totally unscientific, I know) I picked Josie out of the little-girl-with-a-sign lineup instantly, even though I've never seen her before.  She just looks "off" to me.  There's a, well, a "vacantness" there that I didn't see on the other girls.  I hope she's receiving help, should she need it.  Unfortunately I can see her and Jana spending the rest of their lives with their parents, with Jana taking care of all of them.

 

I think "vacant" is exactly the right word. Josie constantly reminds me of that line "the lights are on but no one's home..." line.

Edited November 5, 2014 by NausetGirl

[3girlsforus]

I think what it comes down to for me is that these kids are not having their needs met. Whether they are gifted, "normal", ADD, developmentally delayed, super advanced, variety of learning styles etc. They are just another notch on the list, not individual people with unique talents, gifts and needs. Christians are called to be good stewards of their gifts. Those 19 kids are gifts from God and the Duggars are not being good stewards of their most precious gifts. 

[leighroda]

Omg... I'm watching a rerun where they plan a surprise for Michelle, and a friend gave her a new hair do, she took the time and energy to straighten Michelle's hair and make it really nice and she couldn't even be bothered to pretend she liked it. I guess you shouldn't necessarily pretend you like it but at least show some gratitude!

[Jynnan tonnix]

I think what it comes down to for me is that these kids are not having their needs met. Whether they are gifted, "normal", ADD, developmentally delayed, super advanced, variety of learning styles etc. They are just another notch on the list, not individual people with unique talents, gifts and needs. Christians are called to be good stewards of their gifts. Those 19 kids are gifts from God and the Duggars are not being good stewards of their most precious gifts. 

I think this about says it all...Though, as has been mentioned, JB does seem to actually care about them, Michelle reminds me more of a hoarder...she just wants to keep adding and adding to the pile and is very possessive of the whole thing, but seems unmotivated to do anything with it outside of always being driven to make it larger.

[floridamom]

The only stewards those parents care about is their daughters' "secret gardens". Sorry, plain and simple. Michelle doesn't give ONE hoot about how those girls are treated, if any of their hopes and dreams aside from childbearing are noticed, nurtured or attained. As far as the boys go,, Michelle needs for them to wear name tags. Jim Bob sees his boys as nothing more than free labor with his never ending projects.

[Higgins]

e classroomSome kids are like that, yes. But it's never that they are "just like that." They may not have any developmental disabilites, but in a classroom these days, that kind of nature would very definitely be a special need. It wasn't recognized when most of we Baby Boomers were in grammar school, but it is now. And thank God because it is a real thing. Children with ADD need and deserve help as much as a blind or deaf child would. A child that cannot sit still, or concentrate, or work without bothering the children around them disrupts the entire classroom and the learning experiences of every child in it. Intervention is needed and often makes a huge difference. Sometimes just behavioral changes and strategies will work.  Some children need pharmaceutical help as well.

As far as I can tell, Josie isn't in a classroom bothering other children. She is only 4 years old. I wouldn't diagnose her from a few minutes of film. Who knows how long they are taking trying to film those small children in the those talking heads. I think that is a stretch.

[floridamom]

BrianJ62, other than Jim Bob and Michelle's test scores, I don't believe that any score would properly identify any of those kids because they haven't had exposure to organized learning, a regular real curriculum or real life experience. Jim Bob and Michelle, who HAVE had regular schooling and a regular young life have those things to measure against a standardized test. I would love for all of them to take one, (age appropriate) and see how they do!

With 19 children, I'm sure that there is a myriad of difference between them; some will be quite intelligent if given the opportunity, some average, and some, learning difficulties and maybe even one or two slightly behind...

[duggarshow]

Omg... I'm watching a rerun where they plan a surprise for Michelle, and a friend gave her a new hair do, she took the time and energy to straighten Michelle's hair and make it really nice and she couldn't even be bothered to pretend she liked it. I guess you shouldn't necessarily pretend you like it but at least show some gratitude!

 

Michelle seemed appropriately grateful to me. If she didn't like it, she didn't like it. I LOVED it, but it's her hair.

[GEML]

I personally do terribly on standardized tests, but my husband had nearly perfect scores on things like the LSAT. We both are extremely educated people, so how someone does on a test doesn't interest me as much as are their education needs being met and is the person teaching them adapting the lesson to match their learning style.

To some extent, I think Michelle genuinely tried to do this with the older children, and Jim Bob tried his best to pass on hands on knowledge as he could. But once the show became their lives that changed and unfortunately I do believe it's been to the detriment to the education of the younger children.

[awaken]

Another thing that bugs me:  how they always have to specifically call it "side hugging" or "front hugging".  As in, "our dear friends came over and when we saw them we side-hugged."  "The horror!  Jill and Derick front-hugged but they sure won't do that again!"  Why can't they just say "hug" knowing that in their world that means side hugs?  spelling it out like that every time draws attention to what they're doing, when it wouldn't be as noticeable or strange if they just DID it.  That way they'd still be pure, and not defrauding others!  But it has to be the same as the first kiss, holding hands, etc-  Talk about it ad nauseum until it becomes a major focus of their relationship and the whole family's life and everyone is scrutinizing every move!  

[NausetGirl]

How do you think the children/older children and parents would do on a standardized test to determine their educational level/knowledge?

 

Great question. Have wondered this myself. No idea really. Some of the kids I think are quite bright - Jana, Josiah, Johannah. One of the smaller boys that chaperoned Jill & Derick on a picnic. James ?? He seems quite quick, witty without trying to be. I think he's bright too - he's definitely one of my favorites. More of them might also be bright but have had their personalities flattened for so long by Boob and Mechelle.  And standardized tests are not IQ tests - would not necessarily reveal intelligence.

[NausetGirl]

As far as I can tell, Josie isn't in a classroom bothering other children. She is only 4 years old. I wouldn't diagnose her from a few minutes of film. Who knows how long they are taking trying to film those small children in the those talking heads. I think that is a stretch.

Actually I think Josie will turn five in about 6 weeks. And no, I would never diagnose ANYONE based on what we see on TV. I think I said that in a previous comment. But I would refer her for observation and testing. if nothing's wrong, terrific. But if something is...

I personally do terribly on standardized tests, but my husband had nearly perfect scores on things like the LSAT. We both are extremely educated people, so how someone does on a test doesn't interest me as much as are their education needs being met and is the person teaching them adapting the lesson to match their learning style.

To some extent, I think Michelle genuinely tried to do this with the older children, and Jim Bob tried his best to pass on hands on knowledge as he could. But once the show became their lives that changed and unfortunately I do believe it's been to the detriment to the education of the younger children.

Tests yield numbers. And those numbers are just one aspect of a diagnosis and eventual course of remediation or treatment, if it's deemed needed. Some really bright people test poorly. Some average people can test well too. Some people who usually do well can have a bad day, or not feel well etc. In general though, people pretty much test out commensurate with their abilities. But the number is still just a number. It should never sum up the individual. Remember both Edison and Einstein had teachers who thought they were retarded at some point.

Edited November 6, 2014 by maraleia

[GEML]

Oddly, my husband was thought retarded at a young age. :) Those late talkers always throw people off.

Looking back at the early episodes really shows how much more effort was put into education, mediocre as it likely was, in the earlier children than today's younger ones. Watching JB try and find one word to describe each of the three younger daughters was almost painful, it was so generic. They really have no clue who these little girls are at all. That makes me so sad, as I'm an older parent near their age of a little girl about the same age of Anna's Michael. So I know how big the gap is - I also have one in college. You really do have to make a huge effort to move from one world to the other.

Edited November 6, 2014 by GEML

[Darknight]

How do you think the children/older children and parents would do on a standardized test to determine their educational level/knowledge?

FAIL... I wonder if any of the older kids know literature, advanced math at least algebra 2 and advanced science like physics or chemistry. The younger kids probably aren't even on grade level. Some may be others may not. They sit at a computer all day doing questions until they get it right and change the answer

[Barb23]

Omg... I'm watching a rerun where they plan a surprise for Michelle, and a friend gave her a new hair do, she took the time and energy to straighten Michelle's hair and make it really nice and she couldn't even be bothered to pretend she liked it. I guess you shouldn't necessarily pretend you like it but at least show some gratitude!

I'm with you - I don't think they know the word gratitude. Plus her friend Cindy came from out-of-town to surprise her with the hair makeover. I give her kudos for trying. MEchelle was only worried about what Boob would think of her new do.

[Ilovemylabs]

What is the purpose of the para military training at ALERT if the Duggars do not believe that they should serve in the military?  I guess Josiah is still there?

[ghoulina]

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me. 

[Darknight]

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me.

Because daddy is the head of the household. Daddy controls who courts her. Daddy has virgin daughters that guys would love to take control over. The Duggars are backwards as hell

[Darknight]

What is the purpose of the para military training at ALERT if the Duggars do not believe that they should serve in the military? I guess Josiah is still there?

One word CONTROL

[NausetGirl]

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me. 

 

It is creepy. I believe that in his head, Boob thinks he's "the most interesting man in the world..." But in reality he's a high school graduate/former grocery store clerk who probably married the only girl he ever dated or kissed. He doesn't have any qualifications or real-world experiences that make him capable of choosing life partners for his children.

[Higgins]

Oddly, my husband was thought retarded at a young age. :) Those late talkers always throw people off.

Looking back at the early episodes really shows how much more effort was put into education, mediocre as it likely was, in the earlier children than today's younger ones. Watching JB try and find one word to describe each of the three younger daughters was almost painful, it was so generic. They really have no clue who these little girls are at all. That makes me so sad, as I'm an older parent near their age of a little girl about the same age of Anna's Michael. So I know how big the gap is - I also have one in college. You really do have to make a huge effort to move from one world to the other.

 

How do we know if TLC has decided that showing the education is boring and they are focusing on other things or that they don't educate the same way anymore?. You can't make that decision on what TLC chooses to show us because we are seeing very little of their actual lives. The producers decide what makes it to screen.

FAIL... I wonder if any of the older kids know literature, advanced math at least algebra 2 and advanced science like physics or chemistry. The younger kids probably aren't even on grade level. Some may be others may not. They sit at a computer all day doing questions until they get it right and change the answer

Not many people need more than a basic understanding of algebra and geometry to live an educated life. I have a MSN in nursing and I never had to take more than Statistics to get it and I needed that only for academic research purposes. I never use it otherwise.

It really bothers me how the young men are expected to ask JB permission before proposing to the daughters, because HE holds their heart. Why not both parents? They both took a part in raising these girls (ostensibly). Why would their heart only belong to dad? That just comes off as creepy to me. 

How is it any different than the father "giving" the bride away in almost every wedding? It is tradition.

[mimionthebeach]

It is creepy. I believe that in his head, Boob thinks he's "the most interesting man in the world..." But in reality he's a high school graduate/former grocery store clerk who probably married the only girl he ever dated or kissed. He doesn't have any qualifications or real-world experiences that make him capable of choosing life partners for his children.

 

But he's been married for 30 YEARS and FATHERED 19 CHILDREN!!!  How can you not be in awe?

 

(i need an emoticon for "gives me the heebie-jeebies")

[EtheltoTillie]

It is creepy. I believe that in his head, Boob thinks he's "the most interesting man in the world..." But in reality he's a high school graduate/former grocery store clerk who probably married the only girl he ever dated or kissed. He doesn't have any qualifications or real-world experiences that make him capable of choosing life partners for his children.

Creepy, indeed.  I had never heard that story before about how Jim Bob sort of stalked Mechelle for a couple of years before she worked in his mother's yogurt store.  He kept praying that she would become his wife?  Was I hearing correctly?

 

I skipped the part about the overseas travels.  i had avoided those episodes when they first ran, and I have no interest in seeing them. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by GussieK

[NausetGirl]

How do we know if TLC has decided that showing the education is boring and they are focusing on other things or that they don't educate the same way anymore?. You can't make that decision on what TLC chooses to show us because we are seeing very little of their actual lives. The producers decide what makes it to screen.

 

Not many people need more than a basic understanding of algebra and geometry to live an educated life. I have a MSN in nursing and I never had to take more than Statistics to get it and I needed that only for academic research purposes. I never use it otherwise.

How is it any different than the father "giving" the bride away in almost every wedding? It is tradition.

 

Very true. We can't really know what TLC is/isn't showing regarding the Duggars' homeschooling. But I would ask this. If these children were receiving a superior education at home, why wouldn't TLC want to show it?  Sometimes, things actually ARE as they appear. I think we don't see Duggar children doing algebra or reading Shakespearean comedies because it just isn't happening.

 

Regarding your second point, I remember thinking this too in a high school trig class. Why am I studying this now? I'll never need it later on in life. Well, that is the point of education. You never know where knowledge will lead, what big idea could be born out of exposure to X - even if it happens years later. if we were only taught and studied the barest necessities of what we need for life, this world will not only be a very dull place, but we would be, at this very moment, probably be riding horses everywhere. And not communicating in seconds with people 1000s of miles away - via THE AIR!

Edited November 6, 2014 by NausetGirl

[Higgins]

Very true. We can't really know what TLC is/isn't showing regarding the Duggars' homeschooling. But I would ask this. If these children were receiving a superior education at home, why wouldn't TLC want to show it?  Sometimes, these ARE as they appear. I think we don't see Duggar children doing algebra or reading Shakespearean comedies because it just isn't happening.

 

Regarding your second point, I remember thinking this too in a high school trig class. Why am I studying this now? I'll never need it later on in life. Well, that is the point of education. You never know where knowledge will lead, what big idea could be born out of exposure to X - even if it happens years later. if we were only taught and studied the barest necessities of what we need for life, this world will not only be a very dull place, but we would be, at this very moment. probably be riding horses everywhere. And not communicating with people 1000s of miles - within seconds - via THE AIR!

Because it is boring. I'm not in high school I have a graduate degree and I have never used advanced math. Even with a graduate degree in science I use very little chemistry beyond the basics.

[PityFree]

Not many people need more than a basic understanding of algebra and geometry to live an educated life. I have a MSN in nursing and I never had to take more than Statistics to get it and I needed that only for academic research purposes. I never use it otherwise.

I would hope that EVERYONE gets an exposure to statistics (and other mathematics) since I think an understanding of it is necessary in today's world -where you need to understand research and surveys and to be able to interpret information that the media presents to us. Part of critical thinking of being able to understand if someone is obfuscating the truth - and understanding statistics is a part of that. We need to learn things other than what we use on the job to be good, informed citizens of the world.  

[galax-arena]

Not many people need more than a basic understanding of algebra and geometry to live an educated life.

Sure, but the point of getting an education is so that you have more options. I don't use any of the advanced math or science that I learned, but I don't think it was a waste of time. At least it meant that I had more opportunities when it came to pursuing higher education. 

 

ETA: And now I'm interested in studying astronomy (on my own) but it's hard going because my foundation in physics is so shaky, which illustrates my point.

Edited November 6, 2014 by galax-arena

[DamWrite]

Sure, but the point of getting an education is so that you have more options. I don't use any of the advanced math or science that I learned, but I don't think it was a waste of time. At least it meant that I had more opportunities when it came to pursuing higher education. 

 

ETA: And now I'm interested in studying astronomy (on my own) but it's hard going because my foundation in physics is so shaky, which illustrates my point.

The Duggars don't want or need more opportunities when it comes to higher education.  That's something none of them will ever pursue.

[Skittl1321]

How is it any different than the father "giving" the bride away in almost every wedding? It is tradition.

Even though the father still usually walks the bride down the aisle, most of the time when the officiant asks "who gives this woman..." (which on it's own is a bit ridiculous, but whatever); the parents say in unison "we do" or the father says "her mother and I do".  At least that has happened at every wedding I've been at in the past two decades.

[NausetGirl]

Because it is boring. I'm not in high school I have a graduate degree and I have never used advanced math. Even with a graduate degree in science I use very little chemistry beyond the basics.

 

I think you're missing my point. MANY other people do use advanced math. And do not find it boring. Just because it is not YOUR experience, doesn't mean it isn't valid for others. Or wouldn't be valid for at least some of the Duggar children. I'm not suggesting they spend a 30-minute episode on a homeschooled physics lesson. And unless I'm mistaken neither is any other poster here. First of all, I don't believe any physics is being taught. But if TLC had producers with any kind of skill or imagination, they could make homeschooling interesting to viewers from time to time. What's being taught and possibly how the content from a lesson is incorporated to some concrete application in daily life? A lesson on calculating volume could be applicable to cooking, for example. What is the volume of this cake we're going to bake, kids? No, I think the people who lead the production on this show have become very complacent. It's easier to film the same old stuff, and to show Boob & Mechelle yammering away the same old balloon juice week after week, than to come up with new ideas. It's always easier to do that, rather than to strive for progress and self-improvement.

Edited November 6, 2014 by NausetGirl

[GEML]

Actually, they do show a decent bit of their education, and none of them are long term projects, like building the house was, and is more and more TV field trip and "let's do this" and then they never do it again. We see things like the green house in tatters in later shows, so we know that's show driven, not a long term project.

Also, look at how the children present and speak on the 14 kids and compare that to the children who are the same age now. Sure, you are going to have one or two with a variety of skill and ability difference. But the older children had a tremendous amount of personal amount of time and attention that just isn't obvious in the younger kids.

Edited November 6, 2014 by GEML

[merylinkid]

SlumBobMillionaire

 

I love it.    Perfect.

 

Michelle got to have a job as a teenager but her daughters have to be drudges for her?    Lovely.

[Darknight]

Because it is boring. I'm not in high school I have a graduate degree and I have never used advanced math. Even with a graduate degree in science I use very little chemistry beyond the basics.

I think certain subjects like Algebra 2, physics can be helpful to learn even if you don't use it in your own life. How would you know what's out there if you don't acquire the skills to learn what's out there. Everyone should study the things they don't want or things they don't think they need just in case

Edited November 6, 2014 by Darknight

[Jellybeans]

At least that has happened at every wedding I've been at in the past two decades.

Well, not only did I have a black wedding dress I asked for that specific to be part to be left out. Who and why was anyone giving me away?

I thought it offensive as a regular reader of Ms. magazine which was very, very popular at the the time. :-) Gloria Steinem was the founder. Ok I am so off-topic....

[Higgins]

I think certain subjects like Algebra 2, physics can be helpful to learn even if you don't use it in your own life. How would you know what's out there if you don't acquire the skills to learn what's out there. Everyone should study the things they don't want or things they don't think they need just in case

Sure, it would be wonderful if everybody could study everything just in case. It is not very likely though.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Higgins

[Jellybeans]

I think certain subjects like Algebra 2, physics can be helpful to learn even if you don't use it in your own life. How would you know what's out there if you don't acquire the skills to learn what's out there. Everyone should study the things they don't want or things they don't think they need just in case

My algebra teacher said that to me in 1969 and I am going to be 60 next month. Not once have I used algebra. :-( However I wish I knew more about physics. Just the cool stuff, like quantum entanglement. :-)

Edited November 6, 2014 by Jellybeans

[Higgins]

Even though the father still usually walks the bride down the aisle, most of the time when the officiant asks "who gives this woman..." (which on it's own is a bit ridiculous, but whatever); the parents say in unison "we do" or the father says "her mother and I do".  At least that has happened at every wedding I've been at in the past two decades.

It is custom for many. The whole asking the father for his blessing is back in a big way for young people.

[Skittl1321]

I asked for that specific to be part to be left out. Who and why was anyone giving me away?

 

 

I should clarify- that's how the "give away" part has been in any wedding where there was a giving away: that it was the parents who gave her away, not the father.

 

I have been to a wedding where no one gave her away; but in my area people tend to marry young, so it isn't uncommon to still have that "Daddy's little girl" thing going on.  I don't know that I would have wanted that if I was 32 rather than 22 when I got married! 

[Skittl1321]

My algebra teacher said that to me in 1969 and I am going to be 60 next month. Not once have I used algebra. :-( However I wish I knew more about physics. Just the cool stuff, like quantum entanglement. :-)

 

You've never figured out an unknown quantity? That's algebra.

 

Perhaps you've never factored or applied the quadratic equation, but I'd be shocked if you never used algebra at all.

[GEML]

I wasn't given away either!  And I can't do algebra.  I can, however, quote long passages of Shakespeare.

The problem isn't that the Duggar children are missing in this or that, it's that they are missing out on so much.  I think the most painful moment of me of all time on the Duggar show was when they went to the public school and the girls were asked what was their favorite book.  Now, there are a lot of books they could have read that it's hard to imagine wouldn't be Fundy approved.  You have things like the LITTLE HOUSE books, or LITTLE WOMEN.  You have ANNE OF GREEN GABLES.  You have Christian authors like Grace Livingston Hill or Janette Oke.  I know one of the Bates daughters loves Nancy Drew.  There's the Pansy series by Isabelle Alden, which would make even Bill Gothard look pretty worldly.  For older girls, there's the novels by well known Christian writer Catherine Marshall, CHRISTY and JULIE. Another good Christian writer is Lois Henderson, who wrote books about women in the Bible in a novel form.  We did see JoyAnna once reading THE BOXCAR CHILDREN.  You can be incredibly conservative (small c) and very religious and still provide your children with an excellent reading list.

But the ONLY book any of them could mention was WAITING FOR PRINCE CHARMING.  It's not a novel, it's not a story, it's a HOW-TO.  That made me so sad.  I realize that sure, not all your children will be readers.  But none of them seem to be?  That's intentional.

[ghoulina]

How is it any different than the father "giving" the bride away in almost every wedding? It is tradition.

 

Actually, my mother AND step-father walked all three of my sisters down the aisle together. When asked who gives the bride away, my mother replied, "Her father and I do" - or vice versa. I can't really remember. 

 

I'm actually fairly traditional and I consider my husband the head of our household, but that probably means something different than what it means to the Duggars. I just find the actual wording creepy. To say DADDY holds their heart now, so he must basically be the one to pass the torch to the husbands? It sounds like the girls are dating their dad pre-marriage! Maybe I'm weird, but that's how it comes across. I think if both parents are active in their child's life, it's respectful to ask BOTH of them if they would be okay with you marrying said child. 

[NausetGirl]

  I think the most painful moment of me of all time on the Duggar show was when they went to the public school and the girls were asked what was their favorite book.  Now, there are a lot of books they could have read that it's hard to imagine wouldn't be Fundy approved.  You have things like the LITTLE HOUSE books, or LITTLE WOMEN.  You have ANNE OF GREEN GABLES.  You have Christian authors like Grace Livingston Hill or Janette Oke.  I know one of the Bates daughters loves Nancy Drew.  There's the Pansy series by Isabelle Alden, which would make even Bill Gothard look pretty worldly.  For older girls, there's the novels by well known Christian writer Catherine Marshall, CHRISTY and JULIE. Another good Christian writer is Lois Henderson, who wrote books about women in the Bible in a novel form.  We did see JoyAnna once reading THE BOXCAR CHILDREN.  You can be incredibly conservative (small c) and very religious and still provide your children with an excellent reading list.

But the ONLY book any of them could mention was WAITING FOR PRINCE CHARMING.  It's not a novel, it's not a story, it's a HOW-TO.  That made me so sad.  I realize that sure, not all your children will be readers.  But none of them seem to be?  That's intentional.

 

This sums it up perfectly. "The problem isn't that the Duggar children are missing in this or that, it's that they are missing out on so much..." The more one is exposed to different things, the more that individual can learn to recognize what is fun, interesting, important to him/her. I may never want to take a SECOND course in algebra but at least I've been exposed to it and can judge - for myself - if I like it and want to learn more. As a teacher, I believe kids need to be exposed to as much as possible on an introductory basis, so they can go on to decide for themselves what their futures will hold. I've seen kids as young as five just light up when they first touch the keys on a piano, or pick up a paint brush and spread color across a blank piece of paper.

[3girlsforus]

To me the difference between the traditional 'giving away/walking the daughter down the aisle' and what the Duggars do is attitude. My dad walked me down the aisle. He's a critical part of my life and that's an honor I was happy to have him do. HOWEVER, neither of us ever viewed it my being a possession given from my dad to my husband. He didn't choose my spouse for me, get a say in whether or not I married, announce to the church I now had permission to get it on during the wedding... none of that stuff. In the typical wedding, walking down the aisle and even calling it 'giving it away' is really about tradition and honoring the person who has been influential in your life up until now (very often the father). To the Duggars it's truly about giving a possession from one man to another. They don't acknowledge that a woman can exist by herself. She either belongs to her dad or her husband. And that's sick. 

[GEML]

It's actually fairly common in large parts of the US, not just among religious conservatives, for fathers to share a "first date" with their daughter.  There's whole video on this that comes around my FB feed from time to time, and it's just from ordinary parents (often single mothers or fathers) on the idea that if you're a father who shows her how she should be treated, she'll know what to expect from a future spouse.

Now, I grew up in this world, and had access to some really deep odd stuff along the fringes, but the father dating was NOT part of the 1980's culture that I ever saw.  Don't get me wrong -- I knew plenty of patriarchal fathers, but they were married to their wives, and that was a CLEARLY different role than what they had with their daughters, and somehow they all managed to bring us up to find godly, upstanding men who treasure us as Christian women and partners just fine.  (See?  I can do the blah blah too, if I need to! ;) )

[Abstract]

I wasn't given away either! And I can't do algebra. I can, however, quote long passages of Shakespeare.

The problem isn't that the Duggar children are missing in this or that, it's that they are missing out on so much. I think the most painful moment of me of all time on the Duggar show was when they went to the public school and the girls were asked what was their favorite book. Now, there are a lot of books they could have read that it's hard to imagine wouldn't be Fundy approved. You have things like the LITTLE HOUSE books, or LITTLE WOMEN. You have ANNE OF GREEN GABLES. You have Christian authors like Grace Livingston Hill or Janette Oke. I know one of the Bates daughters loves Nancy Drew. There's the Pansy series by Isabelle Alden, which would make even Bill Gothard look pretty worldly. For older girls, there's the novels by well known Christian writer Catherine Marshall, CHRISTY and JULIE. Another good Christian writer is Lois Henderson, who wrote books about women in the Bible in a novel form. We did see JoyAnna once reading THE BOXCAR CHILDREN. You can be incredibly conservative (small c) and very religious and still provide your children with an excellent reading list.

But the ONLY book any of them could mention was WAITING FOR PRINCE CHARMING. It's not a novel, it's not a story, it's a HOW-TO. That made me so sad. I realize that sure, not all your children will be readers. But none of them seem to be? That's intentional.

Nearly every book you mentioned involves a young lady going out on her own and doing something other than taking care of her umpteen siblings while waiting for her father to find a husband for her. So, not acceptable reading material for J'Slaves.

GEML, I agree, the daddy-daughter dating thing is fairly mainstream and not altogether religious-based from what I've seen. It's sentimental in a "Butterfly Kisses" or "Dance With My Father" sort of way. Still bugs me though, and I'm pretty conservative and religious.

[Darknight]

I think the problem is the Duggar kids aren't expose to things that they might need later in life. If one of them wanted to go to real school they would have a hard time because they would be very far behind the other kids. Kids need to know things even if they don't want to know them or find them boring. My daughter hates history but our state requires it for graduation. She also hates math but she needs to learn it to apply it in the future. The Duggar kids don't know any good children's book or books within their own age group. I doubt some of them can solve a simple algebra equation, it's not that there stupid but their parents haven't exposed them to these things because it's a sin to be educated.

[Abstract]

I think the problem is the Duggar kids aren't expose to things that they might need later in life. If one of them wanted to go to real school they would have a hard time because they would be very far behind the other kids. Kids need to know things even if they don't want to know them or find them boring. My daughter hates history but our state requires it for graduation. She also hates math but she needs to learn it to apply it in the future. The Duggar kids don't know any good children's book or books within their own age group. I doubt some of them can solve a simple algebra equation, it's not that there stupid but their parents haven't exposed them to these things because it's a sin to be educated.

I would bet that education would be frowned upon in this family even if they had never found Gothard. JB and Michelle are proud of their success despite lack of education. They take the "it worked for us, it will work for you" attitude toward their kids' education. Highly ironic, since they certainly don't follow that maxim for anything else in life.

[3girlsforus]

We want to expand options for our children... not close doors before they are even old enough to know what doors might be out there. By deciding as a young age that our children don't need to be exposed to Algebra or don't need to read classic literature or take physics etc.. is to cut off their future. Just because you didn't use it doesn't mean your child won't find it riveting and choose a future plan that will include it. And some of the things we are discussing (literature, math at least through Alg 2, several sciences) are basic just to get into college. So Chelle/JB  are intentionally closing the college door to their kids just because they don't see the point and want a certain life for them that don't believe needs further education. While we all cheer what we see as Jessa saying 'hey I can make my own decisions now'... if she starts really expanding herself and wants to go to college, get a job, be anything but a wife and mother, her parents have created a difficult road for her that didn't have to be so hard. It can't hurt a child to educate them and then let them choose whatever they want to do even if you end up not actively using your education. There is no waste in being an educated, well read/well spoken person. But if you just assume they don't need any education past basic reading, math and writing, you are creating unnecessary difficulties and closing doors for your children down the road.

 

Of course that's a calculated choice by Chelle/JB. The less they prep them to be independent, the more control they can maintain. And we know they are all about control.

[Darknight]

I would bet that education would be frowned upon in this family even if they had never found Gothard. JB and Michelle are proud of their success despite lack of education. They take the "it worked for us, it will work for you" attitude toward their kids' education. Highly ironic, since they certainly don't follow that maxim for anything else in life.

Not everyone has to go to college, but Michelle and JB attended real school with real kids with real books. I always told me kids if they don't want to attend college then they need to make the best out of their high school education. Make sure during 11/12th grade you take a rigorous course of study. Then if you change your mind you won't regret not taking things in school