Heather Thomson: Inventor of Yummie Tummie

[biakbiak]

Ugh. I forgot about that. So much for "HollaSo what Heather's saying is: if Aviva opens her ignorant mouth in the ghetto, she will be beaten. Lucky she lives on the UES where she will be called an ignorant cow and they'll call it a day..

I took it to mean that if Aviva was her normal condescending self her ass or leg would be handed to her not because she didn't use "mama" or "holla" but because Aviva was a snotty asshole and that will you get checked in Appalachia or Oakland.

[Jel]

"They'd likely take that fancy leg of yours off and beat you.."  Yikes on a number of levels.  

[ryebread]

No one is going to convince me that "motherfucker" is the domain of BVE. Just...no..

Personally, I don't find her use of Motherfucker or the threat of her whipping out her skully as BVE. I think her use of them makes her look like a hostile bitch. Neither, for me, are Holla or Mama examples of BVE or CA. They just make her sound like she's trying too hard to be something she's not.

I took it to mean that if Aviva was her normal condescending self her ass or leg would be handed to her not because she didn't use "mama" or "holla" but because Aviva was a snotty asshole and that will you get checked in Appalachia or Oakland.

I don't disagree. And will add, Heather and Aviva are both snotty assholes who both deserve to be checked. Although I draw the line at ass beatings. With a prothesis, no less.

[WireWrap]

"They'd likely take that fancy leg of yours off and beat you.."  Yikes on a number of levels.  

Yet it was also said by countless viewers on countless forums as well. Aviva was/is the most elitist of all the HWs on all the HW shows IMO.

 

Personally, I don't find her use of Motherfucker or the threat of her whipping out her skully as BVE. I think her use of them makes her look like a hostile bitch. Neither, for me, are Holla or Mama examples of BVE or CA. They just make her sound like she's trying too hard to be something she's not.

I don't disagree. And will add, Heather and Aviva are both snotty assholes who both deserve to be checked. Although I draw the line at ass beatings. With a prothesis, no less.

Well, I don't think Heather was really advocating that Aviva get physically beaten nor were all the viewers that expressed that same sentiment throughout last season. IMO, it was more of reality check to her elitist attitude.

[ryebread]

Well, I don't think Heather was really advocating that Aviva get physically beaten nor were all the viewers that expressed that same sentiment throughout last season. IMO, it was more of reality check to her elitist attitude.

 

I don't think she wished bodily harm either.  But the way Heather speaks, especially when angered, is brusque and very off putting to some.  It's just plain ugly, imo. 

 

She reminds me of Danielle.  All 'love and light' on Twitter.  Empower women!  Yeah!  But she calls other women ignorant cows and conjures the image of one getting her ass beat by a crowd in the ghetto.  With her own prosthesic that she wears because her foot was violently mangled when she was six. Six years old.

 

Meanwhile, on Twitter, she's currently training to climb a mountain with people who have lost limbs. LOL.  Love and Light, Heather.  Love and Light.

Of course she has to throw in the bolded part because she's insufferable like that.

 

“I’m going to be climbing this mountain, and I’m going to be doing it with people who have prosthetics, who have no vision, who have no hearing, who have been wounded at war…people who have lost something…and together we’ll gain it all back on that mountain,” she says.

Of course, in Real Housewives fashion, amid all that camaraderie, she can’t help but throw in a little jab at her co-stars. “To be honest with you, I don’t see a lot of the other women using the platform to promote others,” she says. “They do a hell of a job promoting themselves.”

http://wellandgood.com/2015/06/05/real-housewives-heather-thomson-fitness-diet/

[breezy424]

I take that to mean that they would 'verbally' take off that fancy leg of yours and beat your sorry, elitist, ignorant ass with it. Holla

[WireWrap]

I don't think she wished bodily harm either.  But the way Heather speaks, especially when angered, is brusque and very off putting to some.  It's just plain ugly, imo. 

 

She reminds me of Danielle.  All 'love and light' on Twitter.  Empower women!  Yeah!  But she calls other women ignorant cows and conjures the image of one getting her ass beat by a crowd in the ghetto.  With her own prosthesic that she wears because her foot was violently mangled when she was six. Six years old.

 

Meanwhile, on Twitter, she's currently training to climb a mountain with people who have lost limbs. LOL.  Love and Light, Heather.  Love and Light.

Of course she has to throw in the bolded part because she's insufferable like that.

 

http://wellandgood.com/2015/06/05/real-housewives-heather-thomson-fitness-diet/

IMO, she is no more "brusque" or "off putting" than any of the others and IMO, she is very upfront about her feelings instead of underhanded and/or stealth like as so many of them are.  As for her tweet about the mountain climb, when was the last time 1 of the NY HWs did something to help/encourage others? Heather has used her position on the show since day 1 to draw awareness to organ donation and to encourage other women in the business world, name 1 other HW that has done that. Yes, part of her joining the show was to promote YT but she has never done product placement on the show to the degree that Ramona, Bethenny, Teresa G and others have done, she has been more about OD awareness. Heather has her faults but IMO, she has a huge, loyal heart that outweighs her flaws.

[breezy424]

I don't think she wished bodily harm either.  But the way Heather speaks, especially when angered, is brusque and very off putting to some.  It's just plain ugly, imo. 

 

She reminds me of Danielle.  All 'love and light' on Twitter.  Empower women!  Yeah!  But she calls other women ignorant cows and conjures the image of one getting her ass beat by a crowd in the ghetto.  With her own prosthesic that she wears because her foot was violently mangled when she was six. Six years old.

 

Meanwhile, on Twitter, she's currently training to climb a mountain with people who have lost limbs. LOL.  Love and Light, Heather.  Love and Light.

Of course she has to throw in the bolded part because she's insufferable like that.

 

“I’m going to be climbing this mountain, and I’m going to be doing it with people who have prosthetics, who have no vision, who have no hearing, who have been wounded at war…people who have lost something…and together we’ll gain it all back on that mountain,” she says.

    Of course, in Real Housewives fashion, amid all that camaraderie, she can’t help but throw in a little jab at her co-stars. “To be honest with you, I don’t see a lot of the other women using the platform to promote others,” she says. “They do a hell of a job promoting themselves.”

 

http://wellandgood.com/2015/06/05/real-housewives-heather-thomson-fitness-diet/

Well, Sonja is giving all those interns opportunities.... 

[shoegal]

IMO, she is no more "brusque" or "off putting" than any of the others and IMO, she is very upfront about her feelings instead of underhanded and/or stealth like as so many of them are.  As for her tweet about the mountain climb, when was the last time 1 of the NY HWs did something to help/encourage others? Heather has used her position on the show since day 1 to draw awareness to organ donation and to encourage other women in the business world, name 1 other HW that has done that. Yes, part of her joining the show was to promote YT but she has never done product placement on the show to the degree that Ramona, Bethenny, Teresa G and others have done, she has been more about OD awareness. Heather has her faults but IMO, she has a huge, loyal heart that outweighs her flaws.

When was the last time one of the NY Housewives did something to help others? I'm going to say Aviva and A Step Ahead helping amputees get new prosthetics.

Hopefully ones they will not be beaten with in the ghetto. Holla!

[jaync]

This means that she is hard on Heather because clearly she doesn't agree with a lot of what is going on, but I still think they are friends.

One thing that stood out to me in the last episode was how, when Dorinda started getting upset in the scene with Kristen and Ramona, she immediately stood up and went to Heather for a hug. So, it seems they may have gotten pretty friendly before filming started. (Maybe Dorinda even asked Heather to help co-host her birthday weekend. *gasp*)

 

May as well move it along. There's nothing to see here.

How bossy! (I kid, I kid!)

 

Has this thread doubled in pages in just the last week?

 

[WireWrap]

When was the last time one of the NY Housewives did something to help others? I'm going to say Aviva and A Step Ahead helping amputees get new prosthetics.

Hopefully ones they will not be beaten with in the ghetto. Holla!

She did that 1 season, her first then nothing her second season. BTW, she did not join that charity until she joined the show.

One thing that stood out to me in the last episode was how, when Dorinda started getting upset in the scene with Kristen and Ramona, she immediately stood up and went to Heather for a hug. So, it seems they may have gotten pretty friendly before filming started. (Maybe Dorinda even asked Heather to help co-host her birthday weekend. *gasp*)

 

How bossy! (I kid, I kid!)

 

Has this thread doubled in pages in just the last week?

Heather and Dorinda were friends before the show, they know each other from the Berkshires. I think it funny that although Ramona and Dorinda have know each other longer, only Heather/Dorinda have been to each others vacation homes before either joined the HW cast, Ramona had never been to either of Dorinda's homes and visa versa before filming began. LOL

[Crikey]

Luann did give a twitter shout out to National Donut Day!  ;)  

Have not heard of anyone getting beaten with a donut but the season is not over!

[quaintirene]

I think Heather tries on various alters for size depending on how she's feeling.  I'm not hearing nearly so much Yiddish out of her now as I used to.  And, yes, it worked my last nerve when she used those words because it just sounded so...fake.  I get she's married to a Jewish guy.  But I am prepared to bet she rarely/never hears Yiddish out of his mouth.  Or his parents' mouths.  And yes there she was 'booby' this, 'beshert' that.  Now maybe she's given up the Jewish-by-injection thing and is going with the Gangsta thing.  In my opinion both personae sound as fake as a $9 bill.

 

By the way, when I typed in 'beshert' my spell-checker auto-corrected to 'basher'.  So maybe there is something real in her personality that I didn't pick up on but my computer recognizes...

[film noire]

Except that she isn't.

The goal posts keep moving, it seems. Now Heather is appropriating BVE when she's angry? However, well before this discussion took a turn, she was being made fun of for "Holla!" and "Mama," neither of which have been said in anger. At all. Well (like, welllllll) before last week's preview where she talks about getting her skully, Heather was being criticized for so-called cultural appropriation, and a large part (if not the sole part) of that was certain people making fun of her for saying "motherfucker" while mixing it up with Mindy Lou Who.

Look, I switch between BVE and so-called standard English depending on which friends I'm chatting with. No one is going to convince me that "motherfucker" is the domain of BVE. Just...no. So no, moving goal posts because the other examples don't hold up? Yeah, a good way to get me to bow out of this discussion. I'm really over it.

 

You should absolutely leave the conversation if it's making you uncomfortable, but for the record, I did not move any goal posts. Your list did not include the things that bother me about Heather's gangsta thug act (which I first talked about on our blessed mothership of late memory, TWOP). I think Heather trades in stereotypes when angry, which subtly -- and not so subtly -- reinforce the idea that communities which use AAVE  are (at best) emotionally unstable and verbally volatile. Add in her claiming that the language is part of her heritage/she's used it since she can remember/part of her very being  -- when really,  all she did was work for a highly successful man who has AAVE as part of *his* cultural heritage – and it’s not just phony, it's wearing somebody else's lived experience to look chic, hip & on trend.  It's demeaning to borrow someone’s history like that.

 

It’s not a perfect analogy by any means, but if I still lived in Quebec and an Anglo (I’m a mix of Anglo and French Canadian) employee started using Joual and then claimed it was their heritage -- and then used it on television mostly when angry or trying to intimidate people -- I’d turn up for a conversation about that (in a toque, not a skully:) and ask them why their own cultural and familial history wasn’t good enough for them that they had to borrow mine, and then use it in such a lowly way.

Edited June 9, 2015 by film noire

[shoegal]

She did that 1 season, her first then nothing her second season. BTW, she did not join that charity until she joined the show.

IIRC, her second season featured Aviva at A Step Ahead with Heather Abbott who lost part of her leg in the Boston Marathon bombing. Edited June 9, 2015 by shoegal

[Crikey]

You should absolutely leave the conversation if it's making you uncomfortable, but for the record, I did not move any goal posts. Your list did not include the things that bother me about Heather's gangsta thug act (which I first talked about on our blessed mothership of late memory, TWOP). I think Heather trades in stereotypes when angry, which subtly -- and not so subtly -- reinforce the idea that communities which use AAVE  are (at best) emotionally unstable and verbally volatile. Add in her claiming that the language is part of her heritage/she's used it since she can remember/part of her very being  -- when really,  all she did was work for a highly successful man who has AAVE as part of *his* cultural heritage – and it’s not just phony, it's wearing somebody else's lived experience to look chic, hip & on trend.  It's demeaning to borrow someone’s history like that.

 

It’s not a perfect analogy by any means, but if I still lived in Quebec and an Anglo (I’m a mix of Anglo and French Canadian) employee started using Joual and then claimed it was their heritage -- and then used it on television mostly when angry or trying to intimidate people -- I’d turn up for a conversation about that (in a toque, not a skully:) and ask them why their own cultural and familial history wasn’t good enough for them that they had to borrow mine, and then use it in such a lowly way.

Did Heather say words to the effect that she claimed a heritage that is not her own or is that your perception of what she does when she uses slang terms, etc?

 

I would show up in a biker's skull cap or maybe a welder's cap or even a mantora if I wanted to be strangely stylish ;)  The skull cap has an ancient history, even dating back to Tollund Man.  I think the hip hop community appropriated it, as did so many others before them.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Crikey

[WireWrap]

IIRC, her second season featured Aviva at A Step Ahead with Heather Abbott who lost part of her leg in the Boston Marathon bombing.

I stand corrected, I do remember that now but it was 1-2 episode(s) with no follow up on the show or in her blog or twitter. That still does not change the fact that she was not a member of that charity until she joined that show. In fact, I don't remember her being involved with any amputee charity outside filming except after the BM bombing and that was short lived, after the media left, so did Aviva.

[shoegal]

I stand corrected, I do remember that now but it was 1-2 episode(s) with no follow up on the show or in her blog or twitter. That still does not change the fact that she was not a member of that charity until she joined that show. In fact, I don't remember her being involved with any amputee charity outside filming except after the BM bombing and that was short lived, after the media left, so did Aviva.

I thought the point was using the show as a platform?

[WireWrap]

I thought the point was using the show as a platform?

It was not her platform though, it was for sympathy/fan support only, not for the charity IMO. Most of these women have long standing charities they have supported for years and they use these charities on the show but not Aviva. She is no longer active with this charity now that she is not on the show even though she still maintains her twitter and contact with her fans from the show. It was nothing more than an act for the show.

[Celia Rubenstein]

 In fact, I don't remember her being involved with any amputee charity outside filming except after the BM bombing and that was short lived, after the media left, so did Aviva.

 

It was nothing more than an act for the show.

 

That's not true at all.  

 

Aviva was recently written up in Huff Po for her continued efforts to help new amputees adjust to their situation.  And if you look at her twitter, she seems to be involved in other groups devoted to supporting gay equality and cancer awareness as well.  

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amber-browningcoyle/aviva-drescher-changing-the-world-one-step-at-a-time_b_7237308.html

 

https://twitter.com/avivadrescher

Edited June 9, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[film noire]

Did Heather say words to the effect that she claimed a heritage that is not her own or is that your perception of what she does when she uses slang terms, etc?

 

 

“Holla’ and ‘mama’ are part of my heritage. I’ve been using those terms for as long as I can remember."

 

http://www.realityte...s-relationship/

 

As far back as she can remember -- or maybe actually just in her adult years, as an employee who adopted a lingo that is not actually any part of her heritage.

 

ETA: The link doesn't work on this page for some reason, but the same link/quote is on page five of this thread, in my post.

 

 

I think the hip hop community appropriated it, as did so many others before them.

I think cultural impact/ownership is like real estate -- location, location, location (i.e., we in the West likely still see a Nazi swastika, but millions of Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists see an ancient symbol of prosperity) and that's the cultural reality we should be trading in, imo.

Edited June 9, 2015 by film noire

[Crikey]

“Holla’ and ‘mama’ are part of my heritage. I’ve been using those terms for as long as I can remember."

http://www.realityte...s-relationship/

 

As far back as she can remember -- or maybe actually just in her adult years, as an employee who adopted a lingo that is not actually any part of her heritage.

 

I think cultural impact/ownership is like real estate -- location, location, location (i.e., we in the West likely still see a Nazi swastika, but millions of Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists see an ancient symbol of prosperity) and that's the cultural reality we should be trading in, imo.

Is it considered a rule or a courtesy?  And who decides?

Edited June 9, 2015 by Crikey

[film noire]

Is it considered a rule or a courtesy?  And who decides?

 

I'ts neither rule nor courtesy, just factual reality; most of us don't know where the chicken we ate for lunch came from, never mind the daisy chain of historical ownership of any one item of clothing, word, etc.   So you can try to reclaim the swastika by putting it on clothing (say) but it will take a very long time to convince people in countries savaged by that war that it's a symbol of prosperity not death -- and meanwhile, they're going to slot meaning to the current owners of that symbol -- the Nazis.  

[Crikey]

I'ts neither rule nor courtesy, just factual reality; most of us don't know where the chicken we ate for lunch came from, never mind the daisy chain of historical ownership of any one item of clothing, word, etc.   So you can try to reclaim the swastika by putting it on clothing (say) but it will take a very long time to convince people in countries savaged by that war that it's a symbol of prosperity not death -- and meanwhile, they're going to slot meaning to the current owners of that symbol -- the Nazis.  

Ut, oh.  

 

Godwin's Law.   They say the longer it goes on, it rears it's head.

I shall take my leave.

Take care, be well.

[film noire]

Ut, oh.  

 

Godwin's Law.   They say the longer it goes on, it rears it's head.

I shall take my leave.

Take care, be well.

 

 

Wow -- okay, then change the example to using the C word as a "mild"insult, or even just a biological descriptor which previous cultures have used ("cunny" being the most polite variation I can post here) and then see if that flies with most of the women in this location and time. Whatever the word once was -- or piece of clothing, or etiquette or ritual or whatever -- it now has a clear meaning that has little association with the previous usage.

Edited June 9, 2015 by film noire

[AKA...CJ86]

IIRC, her second season featured Aviva at A Step Ahead with Heather Abbott who lost part of her leg in the Boston Marathon bombing.

I don't recall what it was, but in her first season, didn't Aviva also host something charity related that Ramona and Sonja missed out on which led to the "It's for the children missing limbs" outburst?

[Rahul]

I think cultural impact/ownership is like real estate -- location, location, location (i.e., we in the West likely still see a Nazi swastika, but millions of Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists see an ancient symbol of prosperity) and that's the cultural reality we should be trading in, imo.

Although I'm not religious or particularly observant, the swastika is part of my cultural identity as an Indian born into a Hindu family. I remember my late grandfather drawing that symbol (as well as a few others) with vermillion into a silver plate at the beginning of the Satyanaran Pooja that was held in our home annually. In college I began drawing swastikas on my exam papers for Organic Chemistry because I needed all the help I could get. However, I always had a twinge of nervousness when I drew the symbol representing Lord Ganesh because I did not want it to be misconstrued as an act of hate or anti-Semitism. I resent Hitler for appropriating part of my cultural identity and twisting it to suit his needs, as I am sure some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in New York don't appreciate Heather co opting words like "mama" from their lived experience in order to appear hip and some one she clearly is not and has never been.

[jimene79]

I am Latina and while this is merely anecdotal nobody I know is going to be offended by the use of a term of endearment by someone who's not Latina. Also, I actually think it's a little sad that the dominant population can only use dominant population - I like it when parts of my culture reach mainstream in a positive way which I word consider the use of a term f endearment positive. By the way, Latinos wouldn't really say mama unless speaking to their mother - they'd use mami.

[film noire]

Although I'm not religious or particularly observant, the swastika is part of my cultural identity as an Indian born into a Hindu family. I remember my late grandfather drawing that symbol (as well as a few others) with vermillion into a silver plate at the beginning of the Satyanaran Pooja that was held in our home annually. In college I began drawing swastikas on my exam papers for Organic Chemistry because I needed all the help I could get. However, I always had a twinge of nervousness when I drew the symbol representing Lord Ganesh because I did not want it to be misconstrued as an act of hate or anti-Semitism. I resent Hitler for appropriating part of my cultural identity and twisting it to suit his needs, as I am sure some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in New York don't appreciate Heather co opting words like "mama" from their lived experience in order to appear hip and some one she clearly is not and has never been.

 

When I can forget what it came to stand for, and just *look at it*, It's a beautiful symbol -- graceful and full of energy -- so sorry an important part of your tradition was stolen and became attached to something as sick and perverse  as the Third Reich. Maybe (the more North America fills up with people from diverse communities) maybe it will be reclaimed here sooner than we think.

Edited June 9, 2015 by film noire

[FaithsMum]

I resent Hitler for appropriating part of my cultural identity and twisting it to suit his needs, as I am sure some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in New York don't appreciate Heather co opting words like "mama" from their lived experience in order to appear hip and some one she clearly is not and has never been.

I'm concerned about not expressing the following well, please bear with me!

My bio father is Jewish. Although the only faith I have is my daughter and Judaism wouldn't acknowledge me anyway since my mother isn't, I do consider myself half Jewish."Ghettos" although didn't originate from Nazi Germany are most famously associated with that, at least on my side of the Atlantic and sometimes I have to remind my brain that when Americans use the term they are not talking about Jewish ghettos during Hitler's reign.

My bio dad has no extended family since his parents were the only two members to survive the Holocaust. Something like 100+ members of his extended family died in the ghettos or were murdered in death camps. This is part of my heritage and although I'm not, based on some of the theories here I could equally become offended at the use of "ghetto" since I don't believe what we would refer to as a "rough estate" can be compared to a place(s) where hundreds of thousands of people were forced into slave labour, lacked basic amenities, starved, beaten, tormented and eventually murdered.

Since I have literally nothing better to do with my days, I've been reading up on cultural appropriation and I still remain unoffended (I think I just made that word up!) by Heather. I do not believe it's my place to dictate what minorities are offended by and I absolutely think they have that right to be irritated/offended by cultural appropriation but since I'm a upper middle class white woman, I also don't think it's my place to be offended on their behalf particularly if those minorities - or many - are not.

To explain more; I live in a town where we've had some problems with adult Asian Muslim men grooming white girls - some as young as 11/12 - and plying them with alcohol and drugs. FaithsDad and much of my extended family are Muslims, of Pakistani origin and they are the first to say it's a cultural problem but the government refuses to acknowledge it for fear of being accused of racism. Social services and the police were also aware of it - for years - but did not do very much of anything for the same reason. The odd white person who has publicly said it's a cultural problem were often shot down, accused of being racist and told that the rest of the Muslim community should be offended. My husband is as easy going as anything but he becomes pretty pissed off by it because he does believe it's a cultural thing (an example is my in-laws were furious when we married because you "sleep with white women, you don't marry or have children with them.") and because he finds it to be condescending for the white privileged elite to dictate what should offend him as a Muslim man.

I fear I have not articulated myself well, so please don't all jump on me at once! :)

Edit: Rahul, this isn't particularly directed at you so I'm not singling you out. I just thought your post was interesting and I can totally see why it upsets you Hitler appropriated something that was a part of your culture and is now pretty much singly associated with anti-Semitism although I don't think Heather's use of language is really comparable tbh.

Edited June 9, 2015 by FaithsMum

[WireWrap]

Although I'm not religious or particularly observant, the swastika is part of my cultural identity as an Indian born into a Hindu family. I remember my late grandfather drawing that symbol (as well as a few others) with vermillion into a silver plate at the beginning of the Satyanaran Pooja that was held in our home annually. In college I began drawing swastikas on my exam papers for Organic Chemistry because I needed all the help I could get. However, I always had a twinge of nervousness when I drew the symbol representing Lord Ganesh because I did not want it to be misconstrued as an act of hate or anti-Semitism. I resent Hitler for appropriating part of my cultural identity and twisting it to suit his needs, as I am sure some Puerto Ricans and Dominicans in New York don't appreciate Heather co opting words like "mama" from their lived experience in order to appear hip and some one she clearly is not and has never been.

Are you really comparing Heather's use of "Mama" to Hitler's use of a sun symbol? Really? SMH

[Rahul]

Are you really comparing Heather's use of "Mama" to Hitler's use of a sun symbol? Really? SMH

They are not on the same level obviously. Hitler is in a world of his own. I wasn't even likening Heather to Hitler. However the swastika was already mentioned here and since we were discussing cultural appropriation I commented on it from my experience as an Indian Hindu in the U.S.

That being said, while I am neither black nor Latino, I am an ethnic minority. Heathers cultural apporopriation really bugs me and I have every right to feel that way. Some may see it as a mere borrowing of words, behaviors, etc but there is a more insidious underbelly to the issue involving race and privilege.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Rahul

[lunastartron]

Okay, so Heather's invocation of "scully caps" to signify intimidation and threaten violence is not problematic even though the remarks of others equating symbols stereotypically associated with blacks are deeply offensive transgressions of bigotry. And, actually, even when a woman writes that people in "the ghetto" would "likely" rip off someone's leg and assault them with it, we shouldn't take those words at face value because . . . well, does it matter what the underlying value is when the premise remains that urban minorities are "likely" going to respond to slang by harming someone? When Aviva joins the leadership of a particular philanthropy once cast, it's a one-off (wait, no, she publicized it consistently throughout her two seasons on the program; wait, no, she actually also continues to promote causes and initiatives on what platform she has left, but that's irrelevant) exercise in self-aggrandizement. But when Heather promotes her own involvement in altruism on social media, it's a reflection of her heroic heart. Am I up to speed? . . .

[WireWrap]

They are not on the same level obviously. Hitler is in a world of his own. I wasn't even likening Heather to Hitler. However the swastika was already mentioned here and since we were discussing cultural appropriation I commented on it from my experience as an Indian Hindu in the U.S.

That being said, while I am neither black nor Latino, I am an ethnic minority. Heathers cultural apporopriation really bugs me and I have every right to feel that way. Some may see it as a mere borrowing of words, behaviors, etc but there is a more insidious underbelly to the issue involving race and privilege.

Show me where any 1 group, race, religion lay claim to a word, to a saying that no one else outside that group is allowed to use (exceptions being derogatory names). 

 

Okay, so Heather's invocation of "scully caps" to signify intimidation and threaten violence is not problematic even though the remarks of others equating symbols stereotypically associated with blacks are deeply offensive transgressions of bigotry. And, actually, even when a woman writes that people in "the ghetto" would "likely" rip off someone's leg and assault them with it, we shouldn't take those words at face value because . . . well, does it matter what the underlying value is when the premise remains that urban minorities are "likely" going to respond to slang by harming someone? When Aviva joins the leadership of a particular philanthropy once cast, it's a one-off (wait, no, she publicized it consistently throughout her two seasons on the program; wait, no, she actually also continues to promote causes and initiatives on what platform she has left, but that's irrelevant) exercise in self-aggrandizement. But when Heather promotes her own involvement in altruism on social media, it's a reflection of her heroic heart. Am I up to speed? . . .

When Aviva joined the she, she was not with that charity, at all. That she has kept with it is wonderful but for a while after getting let go, she had little to do with it. I am glad she is back to supporting the charity.

 

You and I will never agree about Heather, so I will just let this go as it is a waste of my time and your time at this stage.

[Rahul]

Show me where any 1 group, race, religion lay claim to a word, to a saying that no one else outside that group is allowed to use (exceptions being derogatory names). 

 

Show you? We're not in a court of law. This is not a legal issue of what is or what is not allowed. This is about one person cherry picking bits and pieces of another's to suit their own needs in crafting a hip persona with "street cred." (Heather has used that term in reference to herself). Her behavior is disingenuous at best.

[WireWrap]

Show you? We're not in a court of law. This is not a legal issue of what is or what is not allowed. This is about one person cherry picking bits and pieces of another's to suit their own needs in crafting a hip persona with "street cred." (Heather has used that term in reference to herself). Her behavior is disingenuous at best.

I asked for 1 example, just 1, to support your broad statement about "Mama.

[lunastartron]

WireWrap, just want to quickly reply to your question (as well as similar ones upthread) to Rahul and then I am going to agree to disagree for the most part as well (who knows what post will prompt me to write next?). This is probably not the appropriate format to address the tangle of related but distinct issues and threads of discourse that pertain to cultural appropriation because numerous books have literally been penned on the various subjects that fall under that umbrella. So no one can "show you" that phraseologies belong to a certain community. What I will say is that language, as I have noted before, is an organic mode of cultural expression just like traditions, rituals, practices, and physical objects can be. That is the entire premise of why "ebonics" and urban vernacular are now a formal taxonomy - they arose as the mode of linguistic expression for a community that was and is defined by a very particular set of circumstances. You can say this is arbitrary, but all cultures are typified and separated from each other by such shared superficial characteristics. White people dressing up as Indians for Halloween or hipsters buying clothing from Urban Outfitters that boast Navajo clothing are offensive for a variety of reasons - firstly, because those patterns and signifiers boast import beyond their superficial existence within their respective cultures; relatedly, the white people wearing and profiting from them likely have zero familiarity with that import; thirdly, white culture oppressed and perpetrated genocide on the culture from which those symbols derive. In a related but not identical context, it would be really colonialistic for a white woman to go onto the reservation and adopt their slang well into adulthood because that slang is a reflection of familiarity with the unique cultural and geographic circumstances that yielded it. Again, in a related but not identical context, the episode with Carole uneducatedly lecturing LuAnn on the use of "Indian" underlines the import of language in communal self-expression and identity and why the power differential between different communities is crucial - why should Carole or any white person tell a minority how to self-identify? All of these concerns are interrelated. (I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I would like to highlight the "in a related but not identical context" qualifier because certain posts upthread seemed to suggest that I compared Heather's use of "holla" to "n***a"; I did not do this, but used the latter example to exemplify broader schools of thought about linguistic expression and appropriation.) But, if you don't find Indian costumes problematic or think that Iggy Azalea constitutes metaphorical blackface/racial posturing (as is anyone's prerogative), then you probably won't agree with anything I've written. But I just wanted to make the attempt to answer the various posters who have asked about any one group "owning" or "having the right" to certain language.

[breezy424]

Show you? We're not in a court of law. This is not a legal issue of what is or what is not allowed. This is about one person cherry picking bits and pieces of another's to suit their own needs in crafting a hip persona with "street cred." (Heather has used that term in reference to herself). Her behavior is disingenuous at best.

So what do you mean by one person cherry picking bits and pieces of another's to suit their own needs in crafting a hip persona with "street cred."  I've been taking it and feel free to correct me is that Heather is not allowed to use certain styles of speaking because she is not of that 'culture' or 'ethnicity'.  So, only certain people can use AAVE can use that style and what constitutes that style?  See, I don't understand how the lines are drawn.  OK, I'll say no more at this point until maybe I can get a better understanding of what you're saying.  And I'd appreciate it if you would just talk about this situation and AAVE.

[mongoose]

Lurking since this forum was created and just joined to make a quick comment.  I enjoy reading all the observations because they are all so well thought out.  The remarks about Heather's use of mama, holla or other words are what made me want to join.  

There are so many words that people have already appropriated and used in everyday conversation and have become part of everyone's culture.  Phrases such as 24/7,  my bad are ones that come to my mind as I write.  These phrases have made the transition from one culture to another, and nobody seems to mind or object to the uses of the words.  

 

This was just a quick observation that I wanted to interject into the discussion of Heather's language.

[Rahul]

So what do you mean by one person cherry picking bits and pieces of another's to suit their own needs in crafting a hip persona with "street cred."  I've been taking it and feel free to correct me is that Heather is not allowed to use certain styles of speaking because she is not of that 'culture' or 'ethnicity'.  So, only certain people can use AAVE can use that style and what constitutes that style?  See, I don't understand how the lines are drawn.  OK, I'll say no more at this point until maybe I can get a better understanding of what you're saying.  And I'd appreciate it if you would just talk about this situation and AAVE.

 

I'm going to defer to the informative and articulate post by above lunastron because (1) this topic has now become tangential to the point of veering off topic from the Howives entirely and (2) I'm not able to discuss the situation without referencing my own experiences as an Indian who has seen bits of his culture appropriated.

 

I will say this much; Cultural appropriation is not about what an individual is "allowed" to say or do by law. Its about showing respect for other cultures that you do not belong to by not coopting their trademarks as your own.

[biakbiak]

I guess I am going to have to start checking all my white southern uncles who use mama as a term of affection to female family members.

[missy jo]

Heather fan here, checking in to say that I heard the collection groan across the nation when Heather called Avery "Ave!"

 

AFA cultural appropriation, Heather's language doesn't bother me. I'm from South Florida and everyone picks up everyone else's vernacular. I work with mostly Mexican-Americans and vocabulary and in-jokes cross over there as well. I tend to pick up on what's around me, both as a habit and to make myself understood/as a shorthand.

[breezy424]

I'm going to defer to the informative and articulate post by above lunastron because (1) this topic has now become tangential to the point of veering off topic from the Howives entirely and (2) I'm not able to discuss the situation without referencing my own experiences as an Indian who has seen bits of his culture appropriated.

 

I will say this much; Cultural appropriation is not about what an individual is "allowed" to say or do by law. Its about showing respect for other cultures that you do not belong to by not coopting their trademarks as your own.

OK.  I agree with you about the subject veering off the Housewives.  That's my concern as well. 

 

I find your last paragraph interesting and I can respect that to a certain degree but I also find it troubling as well.  Too much of a complicated subject to get into here. 

[WireWrap]

WireWrap, just want to quickly reply to your question (as well as similar ones upthread) to Rahul and then I am going to agree to disagree for the most part as well (who knows what post will prompt me to write next?). This is probably not the appropriate format to address the tangle of related but distinct issues and threads of discourse that pertain to cultural appropriation because numerous books have literally been penned on the various subjects that fall under that umbrella. So no one can "show you" that phraseologies belong to a certain community. What I will say is that language, as I have noted before, is an organic mode of cultural expression just like traditions, rituals, practices, and physical objects can be. That is the entire premise of why "ebonics" and urban vernacular are now a formal taxonomy - they arose as the mode of linguistic expression for a community that was and is defined by a very particular set of circumstances. You can say this is arbitrary, but all cultures are typified and separated from each other by such shared superficial characteristics. White people dressing up as Indians for Halloween or hipsters buying clothing from Urban Outfitters that boast Navajo clothing are offensive for a variety of reasons - firstly, because those patterns and signifiers boast import beyond their superficial existence within their respective cultures; relatedly, the white people wearing and profiting from them likely have zero familiarity with that import; thirdly, white culture oppressed and perpetrated genocide on the culture from which those symbols derive. In a related but not identical context, it would be really colonialistic for a white woman to go onto the reservation and adopt their slang well into adulthood because that slang is a reflection of familiarity with the unique cultural and geographic circumstances that yielded it. Again, in a related but not identical context, the episode with Carole uneducatedly lecturing LuAnn on the use of "Indian" underlines the import of language in communal self-expression and identity and why the power differential between different communities is crucial - why should Carole or any white person tell a minority how to self-identify? All of these concerns are interrelated. (I don't mean to be pedantic here, but I would like to highlight the "in a related but not identical context" qualifier because certain posts upthread seemed to suggest that I compared Heather's use of "holla" to "n***a"; I did not do this, but used the latter example to exemplify broader schools of thought about linguistic expression and appropriation.) But, if you don't find Indian costumes problematic or think that Iggy Azalea constitutes metaphorical blackface/racial posturing (as is anyone's prerogative), then you probably won't agree with anything I've written. But I just wanted to make the attempt to answer the various posters who have asked about any one group "owning" or "having the right" to certain language.

The term/saying "Holla" is Middle French and started in the 1500's, I don't think anyone from that area of France is upset that a NY HW uses it and has most of her life. As for "Mama", I am a 58 year old white woman and grew up hearing it said by "flower children/hippies" in the late 60's/early 70's so I am not sure where you or anyone else thinks that term is only used by Latinos. Did you ever hear of the group The Mama's and the Papas, where they wrong to use that term as well?

 

I do agree that Carole overstepped the line in lecturing LuAnn about NA's but according to an article that I read, the link was posted here not to long ago, they were also displeased with LuAnn as well.

[breezy424]

Lurking since this forum was created and just joined to make a quick comment.  I enjoy reading all the observations because they are all so well thought out.  The remarks about Heather's use of mama, holla or other words are what made me want to join.  

There are so many words that people have already appropriated and used in everyday conversation and have become part of everyone's culture.  Phrases such as 24/7,  my bad are ones that come to my mind as I write.  These phrases have made the transition from one culture to another, and nobody seems to mind or object to the uses of the words.  

 

This was just a quick observation that I wanted to interject into the discussion of Heather's language.

I agree.  I forgot who brought up the term "Moma" a while back but said it was a Latino thing.  One could also say that it came out of slang used during the depression - hot moma.  What culture that 'belonged' to - I don't know. 

 

Anyway, welcome.

[mongoose]

Thanks, breezy424.  So many words have begun in one culture and traveled to another one to become part of everyone's vernacular.  I wondered why Heather's use of two words bothered people so much.  It is fascinating to read everyone's comments, though.  I have laughed at the quick wit of so many people, too!

[SCS]

So, when Beth in her most current Bravo blog, writes--

This doesn't mean that when I'm going through some personal sh-- that I want people up in my grill.

--is she, too, stepping outside the lines? According to various Googles, "up in my grill" is a phrase tied to hip-hop culture--for example, from http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7556/all-up-in-my-grill

Grill" refers to jewelry that some people wear on their teeth. It is prevalent in hip-hop culture, where it is a way to show off one's "bling" - or wealth - when you smile.

Is Beth, like apparently Heather, engaging in cultural appropriation or just tossing off a slang phrase? Later and I fear far more disturbingly she writes--

I approached Heather, because I really didn't want this to become some insane Housewife rivalry that it isn't. She came on strong. I backed up. That is it. Different strokes for different folks.

-- revealing a strange, yet profound affinity for bad '70s sitcoms. Beth-- full of surprises, that one.....

[jaync]

Am I up to speed? . . .

I don't think so...word on the street is Aviva is no longer on the show.

[biakbiak]

I do agree that Carole overstepped the line in lecturing LuAnn about NA's but according to an article that I read, the link was posted here not to long ago, they were also displeased with LuAnn as well.

The difference is Carole was wrong. She told Luann that "Indian" was a slur that no one should use when in its not.

[Jel]

Okay, so Heather's invocation of "scully caps" to signify intimidation and threaten violence is not problematic even though the remarks of others equating symbols stereotypically associated with blacks are deeply offensive transgressions of bigotry. And, actually, even when a woman writes that people in "the ghetto" would "likely" rip off someone's leg and assault them with it, we shouldn't take those words at face value because . . . well, does it matter what the underlying value is when the premise remains that urban minorities are "likely" going to respond to slang by harming someone?...

That was one of things I found "yikes worthy", too, Lunastartron. It's an ugly image to be sure,  but it's also a shitty and unfair characterization of people who live "in the ghetto". 

 

(I am new and haven't even made it to the Aviva thread yet)