Carole Radziwill: She's a Real Princess!

[Ipse Dixit]

Read Carole's latest Bravo blog and I think she's handling it reasonably well.  Yes, she gave an outline of the conflict and probably didn't need to, but here's the thing.

 

"What Remains," while a compelling read and memorable, probably is not great literature.  Will its authorship be the subject of debate a year from now, or 20?  I really doubt it.

 

When the subject is broached, doubtless the origin of the false claim will be remembered, because she too is memorable, but for far grosser reasons. 

 

And what will people remember of Aviva?  Will her book be called compelling and memorable?  So far, it doesn't look like it.

 

After this season of RH, what will Aviva do to engrave herself on the collective memory? 

 

Carole has produced a work of fiction that's garnered mostly "meh" reviews but has been optioned for a TV pilot (or something to that effect, I'm no expert on the business of show).  And Carole, no matter what else happens, always will be the widow of an incredibly decent guy who had a fascinating pedigree.  She may or may not reappear on RH.

 

Aviva probably will not be on RH - if she is, she will either be the screaming-mimi nutcase we saw recently, or will try to reapproach the caring, concerned, ethical woman we briefly saw early in her first season.

 

She's got no other interesting thing on her resume.  Her dad is a disgraced financial type.  Her first husband was a trust-fund baby who's now a balding, plump playboy who probably wouldn't get a first look were it not for aforementioned funds.  Her second husband is a successful-enough business type who's blood related to The Nanny Named Fran.

 

Crickets?  Yep.

 

I hope Carole's only comments going forward are "I wrote my memoirs, I wrote my first novel and I won't dignify the ridiculous claims to the contrary any more; the subject is closed." 

 

Yes, her career has taken a hit of incredibly malicious gossip, but it's a career that can - and I think, will - stand up very well in spite of it.

[comatoast]

 And it's up to Carole to continue to win or not.  

It's like you're my ghostwriter. Only part I'm not so sure about is this one. Seems to me Carol just can't lose, no matter what she does.

[motorcitymom65]

Yes, Mozelle.  To expect that the person victimized by a concerted campaign to ruin her career and cast all of it into doubt to not be negative in response is fucking unrreal.  This angelic standard is a crock.  To impose some mocking standard on the victim where she must turn her back on a show she went on for the money, like everyone else, and to advertise her work, but the aggressor isn't under any such standard, is a gross total joke. 

 

I think it's a hope of some that there are 'haters' - implying people, plural, and many of them - who believe Aviva.  It's heartening to see that people like the NY Mag recapper, people like Juneau Gal -- IOW, people who actually know something about working constantly to write under deadline for editors, who aren't self-published and are in the industry, know that what Aviva's done is a serious, vicious thing to do, and to admit to being actual human beings who would remember the harm forever.

"Fucking unreal". The most perfect analysis I have heard about this. The very idea that the victim is somehow judged for being less than because of their very real feelings of hurt, anger and betrayal. How does anyone know exactly how they would react to such an accusation? Talking about how Carole should have handled it differently very discreetly places blame on her for the situation. I know that folks are still saying that Aviva was wrong, but the intonation seems to be that maybe she isn't quite as bad as all that because Carole is bad too.

[comatoast]

 Talking about how Carole should have handled it differently very discreetly places blame on her for the situation. I know that folks are still saying that Aviva was wrong, but the intonation seems to be that maybe she isn't quite as bad as all that because Carole is bad too.

Unless the posts say otherwise, you're basically putting words in their mouths. I know, for me, there are numerous posts here in which the tone seems to go from dismissive to that of ridiculing the opinions of those who disagree with the majority, but I try to remember that things can be "lost in translation" as far as how one person interprets the post and what the poster's intentions/opinions/ideas actually are.

[Midnight Cheese]

"Fucking unreal". The most perfect analysis I have heard about this. The very idea that the victim is somehow judged for being less than because of their very real feelings of hurt, anger and betrayal. How does anyone know exactly how they would react to such an accusation? Talking about how Carole should have handled it differently very discreetly places blame on her for the situation. I know that folks are still saying that Aviva was wrong, but the intonation seems to be that maybe she isn't quite as bad as all that because Carole is bad too.

 

Love you, motorcitymom1965...I'd just remove 'discreetly' in terms of blame-placing. 

 

 

And that's where Carole wins. You say that this season has shown 'some' people exactly what Aviva is.  I say it has shown 'most' people exactly what Aviva is.  No doubt in the minds of the majority. At least from what I'm reading here and other forums and celebrity websites.  That seems almost unanimous.

Where there is doubt, imo, is what the impact is on Carole. The impact emotionally, I'm sure was hard.  She hasn't "aged worse than a president in his first term" - but I'm sure it was stressful.

Less measureable is the impact on her career, either short term or long. I keep reading how she's been maligned forever and this will follow her forever. How do we know this?  I've read that many people are buying her books just as an FU to Aviva.  Have her book sales picked up since this season aired ?  People who loved What Remains will continue to love it.  I don't think anyone is calling for a book burning because some whack job said Carole had a co-writer.  The publishers who believe in her will continue to help her on her path.

If we're comparing who's winning here, I'd say it's Carole.  And it's up to Carole to continue to win or not.   She's only Ally to the low-rent Hedy if she allows it to  happen.

 

Second bolded bit first: this kind of exaggeration insinuates, and not discreetly, that I advanced that kind of an argument.  I didn't.  

 

First bit: in the relevant reunion thread, a poster who is very critical of Carole (**this is absolutely not you**) has asserted more than once that because Carole has not sued Aviva out of a presumed fear of the discovery process that there must be truth to Aviva's claim.  That has been asserted, in fact, by more than one person on more than one thread.  Please don't act as if you and I or I and anyone agreed on the correct metric to use to assess harm in discussing Carole's career -- I'm not shape-shifting my argument or opinion.  If people are making passionate arguments in a public forum that failure to litigate is indicative of something like guilt, there is harm; public perception of course plays into sales.  Of course there may be a counterbalance of people buying 'What Remains' and 'Widow's Guide' but we don't have numbers staking a plummet or spike in sales to look at.  I'm talking about the presumption of shadiness and dishonesty that Aviva has now sought to put on Carole herself and over her entire career, that the IMO exaggerated idea that Carole was 'diagnosing' Aviva with something makes Carole as bad as Aviva because that's about life and not just work, and the fact that at least here, she's got at least one person proposing that Aviva's assertion itself is tantamount to proof without a lawsuit or vlog from Bill Whitworth or the like.  I regard all of that as harmful, and as putting Carole up to the "automaton" standard that Mozelle referenced upthread.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Midnight Cheese

[Satchels of gold]

Way back on scary island, Kelly accused Bethenny of putting her and her family in the papers. Bethenny said something to the effect I have never uttered your name....ever. You could tell that Bethenny made a conscious effort to never allow Kelly's name to pass her lips. I think Carole should do the same. The crazy speaks for itself and anything Carole could say is just fodder for Aviva and folks like us. I don't blame Carole for fighting back but with Aviva it is just useless. She has now upped the ante to Carole being incapable of love , being a narcissist and having no there, there. I just don't think Carole is capable of sinking as low as Aviva will, so it's useless. By every measure where Carole started in life and where she ended up she is light years ahead of Aviva despite all her wealth and connections.

Edited August 16, 2014 by nc socialworker

[mmepeacock]

To split some hairs here re: #bookgate (why are we hashtagging it again?)

 

It is common if not standard for a new author, particularly a celebrity author, to use a ghostwriter. In many cases it is required by the publisher. The celebrity author has a  public persona which must be advanced by the book. The book must be in harmony with the expectations of the celebrity's fans. Exceptions include celebrity writers, often comedians (Mindy Kaling, for example).

 

But a celebrity book still often has multiple editors. There is the editor who acquired the book from the publishing house, the traditional editor.  There can be a developmental editor who strategizes and pieces the book together, as well as a separate editors for structure, grammar, whatever. There is a lot more at stake and a lot more people involved in the content than meets the eye.

 

So many writers might also hire a freelance editor to go over her drafts before they are sent to the publishing house. Some freelance editors just read and respond. Others do a lot of line-by-line editing or even a fair amount of writing, often ghostwriting big chunks. The line is fuzzy.

 

Carole could have a freelance editor hired by the house and one hired for herself. Anyone who reads the book and gets paid for a professional publishing opinion is an editor. Also, Carole might well have been assigned a ghostwriter, or a *very* hands-on editor. This was her first fiction book, which is a whole new ballgame. She can be great as a journalist and nonfiction writer, and suck at fiction. Many people do. She might be embarassed about that.

 

But all these ghostwriters, freelance editors and other professionals sign contracts that have big confidentiality clauses. They are not to divulge what they did, how much, or how often, and get paid to keep their mouth shut.

 

I have no opinion of Carole as a writer since I haven't read her books, but I think she can be considered a professional writer, since that is how she makes a living. In which case, the accusation of ghostwriting isn't an ethical one, but one of competence. A professional writer might have many editors, even a couple writing contributors, but saying you had a ghostwriter--either by choice or bc the publishing house decided you needed one--is accusing you of not being good enough at your job.

 

I understand Carole's reaction in that light. However, her reaction is what spurred Heather (to investigate) and Aviva (to continue to disparage Carole's competence as a professional writer)

 

Furthermore, being accused of having a ghostwriter, while insulting to the professional, is NOT the same as being accused of plagiarism or falsifying, which are true career-enders. Carole is innocent til proven guilty. Meaning-- if she says she wrote the damn book, she doesn't have to produce a single person to back her up...until Aviva produces an actual ghostwriter, or some other proof, that Carole is lying.

 

And that ain't gonna happen. Aviva's accusation is just noise; So Carole should have reined it in, particularly at Aviva's house, because she painting a bullseye on her forehead. The only real story here was Carole's outrage, and Aviva's ability to play on it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by mmepeacock

[LotusFlower]

mmepeacock - The ghostwriter accusation was in reference to her first book, What Remains, not Widow's Guide, the second (fiction) book.

[mmepeacock]

mmepeacock - The ghostwriter accusation was in reference to her first book, What Remains, not Widow's Guide, the second (fiction) book.

I forgot that, thanks. My point is the same. A journalist is not automatically a book writer; a nonfiction writer is not automatically a fiction writer. She might have had multiple editors for that; anyone one of them could be mislabeled/identified as a ghostwriter.

 

I do agree it's a lot worse to be accused of needing a ghostwriter for a memoir rather than fiction.

 

There's no meat to an accusation Carole used a ghostwriter. It's like Aviva is saying "I don't think you're a good writer." Who cares? The blame for bookgate is on Aviva, but Carole definitely fanned the flames--she couldn't let go of her outrage and was clearly upset this was playing out on tv.

 

Interestingly, Aviva's "what's the big deal" approach at the reunion is mine--except Aviva doesn't get to start a forest fire and then complain it wasn't put out fast enough..

 

The more Aviva pursues this (or Carole) the more damage she does to herself. The less Carole does, the better she looks. Just keep writing well, and the accusations will seem nonsensical.

[ryebread]

If we'd never met Aviva and bookgate had never happened, I'd still find Carole incredibly snarkable.

 

Way back on scary island, Kelly accused Bethenny of putting her and her family in the papers. Bethenny said something to the effect I have never uttered your name....ever. You could tell that Bethenny made a conscious effort to never allow Kelly's name to pass her lips. I think Carole should do the same. The crazy speaks for itself and anything Carole could say is just fodder for Aviva and folks like us.

I don't know when Bethenny made that declaration but she didn't stick to it long.  I can remember seeing her interviewed on several talk shows and in tabloids and talking about Kelly.  It must have been shortly after the Scary Island season ended because I clearly remember thinking it would probably be a good idea for her to zip it and move on.

[Duke2801]

I honestly think some people (NOT saying anybody specific here) have a problem, in general, with a woman who is 50, not married and child-less and actually enjoys her life just the way it is.  To many, that notion simply does not compute.  The idea that a woman must be married with children in order to feel happy and "complete" is tremendously prevalent in our society.  Carole is somebody who doesn't need the title of wife and/or mother to add to her (impressive) resume.  And that makes some people uncomfortable. 

 

Clearly, this is just my $.02. 

[ryebread]

I understand Carole's reaction in that light. However, her reaction is what spurred Heather (to investigate) and Aviva (to continue to disparage Carole's competence as a professional writer)

 

So Carole should have reined it in, particularly at Aviva's house, because she painting a bullseye on her forehead. The only real story here was Carole's outrage, and Aviva's ability to play on it.

Your post is what spurred me on to find the video I attached in the Reunion Part 3 thread.  Because that's the way I remembered it, too.  My memory isn't the greatest so I needed to see it again.

 

I think Carole DID want to reign it in.  I think her mouthpiece did her no favors.  Here's a repost of the link:

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/videos/aviva-drescher-is-throwing-darts-at-carole-radz

[LotusFlower]

Hey stewedsquash - I like Carole a lot, too, and I think they probably left a lot of real-life Carole on the cutting room floor in order to show us more and more stupid bookgate stuff. I would have liked to see more apartment stuff, more interactions with the non-HW, probably very cool people in her life, and even book stuff, although I can understand that probably doesn't make for exciting tv.

I really like her friendship with Heather, esp. because it's so real and genuine. I like Heather for a lot of reasons, one being that I think she's really smart. I thought her decision to read Carole's e-mail as a toast was hysterical, and kinda brilliant. And yes, it showed some behind-the-curtain revelations about Carole.

I don't mean to make this post too much of a love letter, because everyone's flawed. But, I think like you, from two seasons of this show, her blogs and books, I think she's a kind-hearted person and authentic, and I like what I see.

[mmepeacock]

Poking Aviva would be Carole doing her job (as a Real Housewife) well..

It unfortunately runs counter to doing her other job (professional writer) well.

 

From the professional writer/publishing perspective, answering back to your critics--particularly the really personally motivated, credential-less or just BTSC critics--looks bad. A writer's work, in theory, should speak for itself. A writer who defends himself against criticism doesn't trust his own writing.

 

The only person who could give Bookgate any relevancy is a person who claims to have actually ghostwritten (not merely edited) huge chunks of What Remains. Beyond that, it's Aviva's uninformed (and gossip is not a credible source) opinion, and worth exactly that.

 

Bookgate is useless and a waste of time for Carole the writer.

It is, unfortunately, juicy shit for Carole the Real Housewife, as it makes her the protagonist (for whatever lame reason) against the most easily hateable housewife in recent history. She gets a good edit just by going against Aviva. It'll be tough for her to relinquish that position.

It'll be interesting to see which she chooses.

[Mozelle]

Talk of Carole's email to Heather, re: the party planning just reminded me of something that runs counter to the theory that Heather is domineering in her friendship or that Carole is or was seeking Heather's approval in dealing with Aviva. That Carole had a long list about all the dos and don'ts she expected from Heather regarding the party just seems to say that Carole is not running around trying to pay deference to Heather's whims and wishes. Secondly, there was that exchange in Montana when Heather was like, "Yeah, I can't and don't boss Carole around." And Carole confirmed that between the two she was the "bossy" one in their friendship. 

 

Heather was drunk and over the top in Montana, and Kristen is the one who has said repeatedly that she was looking for Heather's approval. As I said in the reunion thread, I don't see this dynamic at all with Carole to Heather.

 

mmepeacock, your statement about a writer answering back to his critics not trusting his own writing is interesting. What Carole is doing isn't anything new. Writer feuds have been notorious. 

[mmepeacock]

mmepeacock, your statement about a writer answering back to his critics not trusting his own writing is interesting. What Carole is doing isn't anything new. Writer feuds have been notorious. 

Excellent point! And literary feuds are lucrative to boot.

 

HOWEVER.

Don't they have to be literary? By even mentioning Aviva's name or opinion, Carole is elevating her to the status of professional writer, someone whose opinions matter more than a layman. Norman Mailer hated Truman Capote, Capote hated/loved Vidal....but they put themselves in the ring with someone with some literary weight. They didn't answer back to random accusation from haters or wannabes. They answered peers

 

This isn't really a writer feud at all, is it? This is a Real Housewives feud. Carole's not in the ring with Margaret Atwood.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that Carole's career as a professional writer and Carole's gig as a Real Housewife are going to require opposing commitments/choices. One might feed the other, but probably not as she anticipates.

Edited August 17, 2014 by mmepeacock

[Mozelle]

Excellent point! And literary feuds are lucrative to boot.

 

HOWEVER.

Don't they have to be literary? By even mentioning Aviva's name or opinion, Carole is elevating her to the status of professional writer, someone whose opinions matter more than a layman. Norman Mailer hated Truman Capote, Capote hated/loved Vidal....but they put themselves in the ring with someone with some literary weight. They didn't answer back to random accusation from haters or wannabes. They answered peers

 

This isn't really a writer feud at all, is it? This is a Real Housewives feud. Carole's not in the ring with Margaret Atwood.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that Carole's career as a professional writer and Carole's gig as a Real Housewife are going to require opposing commitments/choices. One might feed the other, but probably not as she anticipates.

 

I think you're right in that Aviva is not a professional writer so Carole should just leave Aviva to her looney devices. I only brought up the writer feud to say that it isn't unheard of (as a response to the general idea that Carole should be above someone talking smack about her) for writers to get snappy when they or their craft is attacked.

[motorcitymom65]

Excellent point! And literary feuds are lucrative to boot.

 

HOWEVER.

Don't they have to be literary? By even mentioning Aviva's name or opinion, Carole is elevating her to the status of professional writer, someone whose opinions matter more than a layman. Norman Mailer hated Truman Capote, Capote hated/loved Vidal....but they put themselves in the ring with someone with some literary weight. They didn't answer back to random accusation from haters or wannabes. They answered peers

 

This isn't really a writer feud at all, is it? This is a Real Housewives feud. Carole's not in the ring with Margaret Atwood.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that Carole's career as a professional writer and Carole's gig as a Real Housewife are going to require opposing commitments/choices. One might feed the other, but probably not as she anticipates.

I think this is an important point to make, and one that I as a viewer of this kind of TV struggle with. Yes, Carole is an accomplished writer, and thus there are certain expectations that go along with that. She is also, however, a Real HW on a trashy show that I tend to like (so no judgement about that). Mailer, Capote, Vidal - they all had their issues with literary contemporaries -  but who is to say how they might have behaved in this sort of a venue? They were fairly big personalities, and Capote in particular would have probably gone head to head with the likes of Aviva over such an accusation. I think it is all just too complex and too human to assign the behaviors that we wish any of these gals would adopt when real anger and emotion are part of the show.  

[Satchels of gold]

I have been fascinated all season with Aviva's pathological hatred of Carole and I think I have figured it out. Bare with me here as I share my thought process. There are many secondary complications post amputation that Aviva could have used as her medical excuse to avoid going on trips this season that no one would dare question ,yet she didn't use those excuses. I think she didn't want to play the amputation card ,because she would perceive that as a sign of weakness. We know that asthma wasn't the true reason she didn't go as it has since been revealed that Aviva would have gone if she was guaranteed another season. So I'm going with Ramona's theory that she doesn't want to be apart from Reid. Although Ramona is crazy she can be very insightful. I believe that Aviva is very dependent on Reid and whenever there is dependence to that degree there often is an imbalance of powering the marriage. Aviva may feel pretty powerless in her life. Now we have Carole who is so independent and walks through the world completely self reliant. I think this is a real trigger for Aviva as it shows her that she is living in a gilded cage. I think that's the reason why she brought up that Carole is incapable of love (her curse) because she wants to believe that Carole's independence is not of her own choosing. It's one small one that Aviva can feel better than Carole. Carole may want a relationship but Aviva needs one. Aviva really wants to be like Carole . Plus throw in a personality disorder for good measure and there you have it. FYI I usually don't sit around analyzing the housewives but Aviva pinged something in my social work brain.

Edited August 18, 2014 by nc socialworker

[ryebread]

FYI I usually don't sit around analyzing the housewives but Aviva pinged something in my social work brain.

Um, nc socialworker, um, yeah you do. LOL  Most of us do.  That's why this forum is better than most because we're thoughtful/analytical and it's not just "Tamra is a dirtbag." "Aviva is a fucking psycho." "Brandi is a whore."  Well, not all the time, anyway.

 

Your social worker brain comes to the table when discussing Aviva and my kindergarten teacher brain joins you.  We're all influenced by our personal experiences in how we relate to each Ho as an individual.

 

Can you tell me when Aviva said Carole is incapable of love?  I FFWD through a lot of Aviva and I missed it.  But you know I've got all episodes on DVR.  For science, of course.

[Mozelle]

Can you tell me when Aviva said Carole is incapable of love?  I FFWD through a lot of Aviva and I missed it.  But you know I've got all episodes on DVR.  For science, of course.

 

She said it in her blog for the second part of the reunion:

 

I suppose this really hit a nerve with Carole as she defines herself by her writing, which I find terribly sad. My love for my family, friends, and amputees are what fill me with happiness. Carole's happiness seems to be derived from loving herself. This my friends is complete narcissism and her books are an extension of HER love for herself. The saddest thing that Carole ever told me was that she never experienced love for anyone. She calls it her curse -- that everyone loves her and yet she has never felt love. Well, she loves herself and her books. Sorry Carole for being real and being the messenger. Let it go and I hope that one day you experience love. The best kind -- for others.

 

 

 

I think this is an important point to make, and one that I as a viewer of this kind of TV struggle with. Yes, Carole is an accomplished writer, and thus there are certain expectations that go along with that. She is also, however, a Real HW on a trashy show that I tend to like (so no judgement about that). Mailer, Capote, Vidal - they all had their issues with literary contemporaries -  but who is to say how they might have behaved in this sort of a venue? They were fairly big personalities, and Capote in particular would have probably gone head to head with the likes of Aviva over such an accusation. I think it is all just too complex and too human to assign the behaviors that we wish any of these gals would adopt when real anger and emotion are part of the show.  

 

Oooo, motorcitymom, your post made me look for this:

 

[quaintirene]

To date Carole Radziwill has sold  5623 hardcover copies of The Widow's Guide.  Not horrible in today's marketplace but nothing wonderful either.  I don't know the e-number.  However I imagine the publishers aren't overly worried about the tepid sales because the only thing that would explain the big advance is what is coming after.  It will be a book of non-fiction short pieces which I believe will be heavy on gossip--and not of the RHNYC variety.  She's met a lot of well-known people.  I'm sure she's got what to dish.  Leggy Blonde's sales have been horrible.  572 copies in hardcover.  So that is a disaster.

 

I don't think the 'ghost-writer' slur will hang around.  I doubt people pay that much attention to what goes on in this show.  For what it's worth, I would put money on Carole having had help with the memoir.  You could call it aggressive editing.  I doubt it was an actual ghost.  She's a journalist and that doesn't always translate to book-writing.  The reason I suspect that other little hands were involved?  The way she went up in a blue light when Aviva mentioned it.  I was completely surprised by that.  I thought she over-reacted and once Aviva saw that, she just kept right on truckin'.  But then I am not a Radzi-fan and never have been.  She handled the whole thing badly in my opinion and ratcheted up the tension where a little finesse could have diffused it completely. A smile and a 'no'.  Followed by a 'really?  I can't answer for what people I don't know say about me' and a quiet change of subject would have indicated to Aviva that no matter how hard she was trying, this was a drama-free zone.  Aviva is all about the drama which historically has been a way to stay on the shows.  She would have moved on I think.  And Carole would have kept her cool persona intact.  All Carole did was underline that this was something she was really sensitive about.  I think she handed Aviva a weapon when she could have totally disarmed her.

[Satchels of gold]

She said it in her blog for the second part of the reunion:

 

 

 

 

Oooo, motorcitymom, your post made me look for this:

 

This made my day! I was half expecting Mailer to throw a leg. That was amazing.

[ryebread]

She said it in her blog for the second part of the reunion:

 Yeah, that was ugly.

[Ipse Dixit]

Quaintirene, I am mostly a Carole fan and yet I agree with you 420%!

I should know who the woman on the clip is, and I'm ashamed that I don't. But would I love to have her " I'm bored " as an avatar! Thank you, Mozelle, for providing.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Ipse Dixit

[ryebread]

For what it's worth, I would put money on Carole having had help with the memoir.  You could call it aggressive editing.  I doubt it was an actual ghost.

quaintirene, as a professional in the industry, do you think some of the bookgate (sorry) discussion by the Housewives has been spurred by semantics?  Is there a fine line between the terms 'ghostwriter' and 'editor' in the industry?  I've wiki'd myself silly trying to discern the big difference.  Also, why would a ghostwriter write a whole book and then not want to claim credit and $$ by using his or her own name?

[quaintirene]

 

quaintirene, as a professional in the industry, do you think some of the bookgate (sorry) discussion by the Housewives has been spurred by semantics?  Is there a fine line between the terms 'ghostwriter' and 'editor' in the industry?  I've wiki'd myself silly trying to discern the big difference.  Also, why would a ghostwriter write a whole book and then not want to claim credit and $$ by using his or her own name?

A ghost writer stays a ghost writer!  Otherwise they never work again!  And they can be sued for breach of contract.  There are all different kinds of deals with this, but the 'author' gets the kudos not the ghost.  Some authors are happy to share credit and that's why you will see covers that say 'Joe Blow with John Doe'.  But a lot of people prefer that the ghost is invisible as a good ghost should be.

 

As for the difference between editing and ghosting, in general a ghost writes the book.  Period.  Does all kinds of research and interviews with the subject and then does all the writing.  An editor might be involved very closely with the collaborative process and may do quite a bit of writing.  But the author would be the primary writer and do most of the work.  The editor would be involved in shaping the material, suggesting ideas etc.

[ryebread]

A ghost writer stays a ghost writer!  Otherwise they never work again!  And they can be sued for breach of contract.  

 I meant why would a ghostwriter be happy writing others' books and not go off and write their own stuff to attach their own name to and presumably make more money? 

 

Thanks for your response.  Always interested in your opinion.

[WireWrap]

To date Carole Radziwill has sold  5623 hardcover copies of The Widow's Guide.  Not horrible in today's marketplace but nothing wonderful either.  I don't know the e-number.  However I imagine the publishers aren't overly worried about the tepid sales because the only thing that would explain the big advance is what is coming after.  It will be a book of non-fiction short pieces which I believe will be heavy on gossip--and not of the RHNYC variety.  She's met a lot of well-known people.  I'm sure she's got what to dish.  Leggy Blonde's sales have been horrible.  572 copies in hardcover.  So that is a disaster.

 

I don't think the 'ghost-writer' slur will hang around.  I doubt people pay that much attention to what goes on in this show.  For what it's worth, I would put money on Carole having had help with the memoir.  You could call it aggressive editing.  I doubt it was an actual ghost.  She's a journalist and that doesn't always translate to book-writing.  The reason I suspect that other little hands were involved?  The way she went up in a blue light when Aviva mentioned it.  I was completely surprised by that.  I thought she over-reacted and once Aviva saw that, she just kept right on truckin'.  But then I am not a Radzi-fan and never have been.  She handled the whole thing badly in my opinion and ratcheted up the tension where a little finesse could have diffused it completely. A smile and a 'no'.  Followed by a 'really?  I can't answer for what people I don't know say about me' and a quiet change of subject would have indicated to Aviva that no matter how hard she was trying, this was a drama-free zone.  Aviva is all about the drama which historically has been a way to stay on the shows.  She would have moved on I think.  And Carole would have kept her cool persona intact.  All Carole did was underline that this was something she was really sensitive about.  I think she handed Aviva a weapon when she could have totally disarmed her.

Carole did let it go after their initial meeting/lunch, she though it was said and done with already. It was NOT until Aviva's party that she realized that Aviva was continuing to spreading this lie ON camera and to all the other HWs. Yes, Heather did a little investigating to see if Aviva was telling others the GW lie but Ramona was the one that told Carole that Aviva was telling EVERYONE and that she need to stop it NOW! Aviva was shown going from room to room telling that lie to everyone within ear shot. I also think Carole was floored by Aviva attacking/going after her on any level as they got along the season before.

 

Did Carole have help with her book? I am sure she had friends, some even in the writing world, read the manuscript and give her feedback. Most writers do that and they adjust their book as needed from that feedback. That does NOT mean they rewrote her book or even played a role in the final outcome of the book.

[quaintirene]

 

I meant why would a ghostwriter be happy writing others' books and not go off and write their own stuff to attach their own name to and presumably make more money?

There are as many different kinds of writers as there are different kinds of books.  A good ghost-writer stands to make a huge amount of guaranteed money.  And they still get a great deal of satisfaction from the work they do.  

 

 

Most writers do that and they adjust their book as needed from that feedback. That does NOT mean they rewrote her book or even played a role in the final outcome of the book.

Actually not 'most' writers do this.  Some do and some don't.  Many writers extensively workshop their mss.  Equally as many keep them under wraps and only discuss with their editors.  I don't think it matters how many times Aviva went after Carole on this.  The fact that Carole reacted at all was extremely short-sighted in my opinion and if she were my author I would have counselled her to keep her cool, smile and change the subject.  For what it's worth, I know a lot of publishing professionals who watch these shows and when it gets to the book stuff we are all rolling in the aisles since what you see on camera has no relation to reality.  And that would hold true for Carole's little shit-fit in her poor editor's office where she goes off on the copy-editor for altering a word of her deathless prose.  She isn't Stephen King.  She may be a Ho'Wife and have some confined celebrity but she hasn't the clout to pull stunts like that unless it's for the camera to underline how hands-on she is about her wonderful book.  Come to think of it, even Stephen King doesn't pull that kind of shit.  Most really professional authors don't.  Aviva is a raving lunatic but she's right about one thing.  It takes a lot of people to get a book into the best shape it can be.  Serious authors take advantage of that to improve their material.

Edited August 18, 2014 by quaintirene

[ryebread]

And that would hold true for Carole's little shit-fit in her poor editor's office where she goes off on the copy-editor for altering a word of her deathless prose.  

Carole said Bill Whitworth happened to call during that meeting with her editor.  More interesting than that, to me, is that she said he isn't a writer:

ETA:  http://www.examiner.com/article/rhony-star-carole-radziwill-speaks-out-on-bill-whitworth

 

“During my meeting with Barbara, Bill Whitworth called in from Little Rock where he is retired, and I told him the story. He laughed and said "I would have been honored to have ghostwritten your book. It was beautifully written." Bill is not a writer, he is an editor,”

Wonder what William thinks.  Wiki says William was. 

In 1960, upon completion of his BA in English/Journalism at the University of Oklahoma, Whitworth began work at the Arkansas Gazette where he covered low-level community and political stories.[2]

Whitworth worked as a reporter for the New York Herald Tribune from 1963–66, covering the political turmoil of the 1960s beginning with the Kennedy assassination, and including the student antiwar movement, Harlem riots, and Bobby Kennedy’s U.S. Senate race. He also reported on entertainment stories, including the Beatles’ first two U.S. appearances.

From 1966-1980, he worked as a columnist for The New Yorker, writing celebrity features, and reporting other entertaining subjects, including making regular contributions to the popular “Talk of the Town” section.

Becoming editor of the The Atlantic in 1981, Whitworth spent almost two decades leading the monthly magazine to numerous awards and commendations. After his retirement in 1999, he continued to edit occasional pieces.

Edited August 18, 2014 by ryebread

[jaync]

The fact that Carole reacted at all was extremely short-sighted in my opinion and if she were my author I would have counselled her to keep her cool, smile and change the subject.

Carole's reps wouldn't have been there to counsel her at that initial lunch meeting, though. And, hindsight is 20/20, for everybody.

[Juneau Gal]

"The reason I suspect that other little hands were involved? The way she went up in a blue light when Aviva mentioned it. I was completely surprised by that. I thought she over-reacted and once Aviva saw that, she just kept right on truckin'. But then I am not a Radzi-fan and never have been. She handled the whole thing badly in my opinion and ratcheted up the tension where a little finesse could have diffused it completely. A smile and a 'no'. Followed by a 'really? "

(Sorry still can't seem to figure out the quote function on the iPad.)

BAM! And there you have it. What many posters have been speaking against; because Carole did react and in a way different from how someone thinks she should have reacted, she is guilty of at least a smidge of what Aviva asserted.

The whole "She does protest too much" line of thought is mind boggling to me. And infuriating. Somebody message me when this thread starts discussing something else because I just can't with this anymore.

[mmepeacock]

I've been a magazine/web journalist, book author, book ghostwriter, legal writer, marketing writer, copy editor, developmental editor, writing coach and literary critic. These are just the hats I wore on different gigs, and different gigs interpret them differently.

 

A public figure is almost always assigned some "extra eyes" to watch a first-time memoir. The label changes. Carole says editor, Aviva says ghostwriter. Only someone who was with the project from first draft to final proof knows for sure how much of the book stayed true to the original, and what was changed. Only really influential authors are immune from sweeping changes that the publisher wants.

 

The whole process, particularly with a memoir, is tricky and uncomfortable. Carole's reaction could just be memories of being babysat by assigned editors when she didn't think she needed it. Or changes she had to agree to. Or someone she was forced to work with. It doesn't necessarily mean ghostwriter, but it could be what some people thought.

 

It's just gossip, and largely unravel-able, since smart people are going to stay very silent, and publishing a book does indeed take a village. If the memoir sounds like what Carole writes in her blog, then she probably did author most of it. Or she got the same writer for her blog. Who can tell?

[ScoobieDoobs]

If the memoir sounds like what Carole writes in her blog, then she probably did author most of it. Or she got the same writer for her blog. Who can tell?

 

And that very suspicion would never be thought of by anyone had Aviva not made the false accusation in the first place.  So I can understand why Carole was upset about it.  The problem for the show is Bookgate was a very personal thing (for Carole) -- not something most viewers would care about & it only made Aviva seem more unlikable.  To me, it was a lose-lose for everyone involved.

 

Aviva might have taken a kernel of truth, but she spun it around into an outright lie & a false accusation which could haunt Carole forever -- maybe.  Can't say I care much or have any sympathy for Carole.  She chose to do the show & she took a chance.  Her attitude that she could stick to being an observer on a reality show was out-of-touch.  And yeah, if she had kept her cool with Aviva, there would have been no Bookgate.  Wouldn't that have been nice?

Edited August 18, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[quaintirene]

Just to point out, I've met some really really awful horrible people with little or no education and no grace or empathy who are extraordinarily gifted writers whose prose makes Carole's memoir look like a supermarket throw-away sheet.  And I've met some lovely warm terrific people who have tried for years and studied and taken creative writing courses and their writing still is awful and clunky and cliche and unpublishable.  Character is entirely unimportant here, it's talent that counts.  Carole's pearl-clutching over what Aviva said at least suggests to me that she is not as comfortable with her 'I'm a Writer!' as she pretends to be.  And even if she writes to Pulitzer-Prize-winning standard, she has no right to condemn Aviva as a no-talent wannabe based on nothing except the fact that Aviva is an appalling human being.  After Aviva's initial comment, Carole climbed up on a very very high horse.  Which she didn't need to do.  And which has the potential to throw her right down on the ground.

Edited August 18, 2014 by quaintirene

[ScoobieDoobs]

And even if she writes to Pulitzer-Prize-winning standard, she has no right to condemn Aviva as a no-talent wannabe based on nothing except the fact that Aviva is an appalling human being.  After Aviva's initial comment, Carole climbed up on a very very high horse.  Which she didn't need to do.  And which has the potential to throw her right down on the ground.

 

It was extremely thoughtless of Carole to talk to Aviva on camera about hiring a ghostwriter.  Clearly, Veevs didn't want to talk about it cuz she still refuses to publicly admit she had a ghostwriter.  Why did Carole do this?  

 

Me thinks Aviva did have a point -- that Carole thought she was the almighty writer & Veevs was a talentless little nobody.  That was pretty icky.

Edited August 18, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[jaync]

And even if she writes to Pulitzer-Prize-winning standard, she has no right to condemn Aviva as a no-talent wannabe based on nothing except the fact that Aviva is an appalling human being.

If Carole believes that Aviva is a talentless wannabe, then yes, she has every right to express that as her personal opinion. Aviva didn't say she believed Carole needed someone else to write her memoir, she stated it as a fact that didn't dare be disputed. Once Carole said she didn't use a ghostwriter, Aviva should've accepted that and moved on, as it was no skin off her back either way. Alas, Aviva was a twatbar who was desperate for a storyline.

[Trooper York]

Of course Bill Whitworth is not a writer because Carole says so. She is the only fount of wisdom that we need to consult about all thing literary. Perhaps she can edit his Wickipedia entry to erase all of his writing credits as she knows best. Last season she lets us in on the fact that she invented wearing capes despite what that poseur Batman might have to spay about it!

[Trooper York]

Maybe if she runs into Batman she can grab him by the face and almost push him down the stairs or something. Just sayn'

Edited August 18, 2014 by Trooper York

[quaintirene]

 

Alas, Aviva was a twatbar who was desperate for a storyline.

Yes.  She was.  And Carole gave her one...

[WireWrap]

It was extremely thoughtless of Carole to talk to Aviva on camera about hiring a ghostwriter.  Clearly, Veevs didn't want to talk about it cuz she still refuses to publicly admit she had a ghostwriter.  Why did Carole do this?  

 

Me thinks Aviva did have a point -- that Carole thought she was the almighty writer & Veevs was a talentless little nobody.  That was pretty icky.

If you follow that train of thought, Aviva could just as easily said to Carole, when she was asked about using a GW, Thank you for checking out the GW I asked you about but my editors felt I could do it myself and I did with their help, so the GW was not needed. Aviva did NOT have to make up a lie about Carole using a GW to get back at Carole for asking that question on camera in the first place. AND, Aviva did NOT have to go from 1 person to the next on camera spewing that same lie time and time again.

 

Did Carole make a mistake asking about the GW on camera, Yes, that was insensitive of her but, IMO, that did not warrant what Aviva did/said at all. Aviva decided she needed to destroy Carole both professionally and personally. I really do not believe that Carole asked that question to make Aviva look or feel less than but Aviva did say and repeat the lie plus other nasty comments in her blogs and on camera about Carole to cause pain. Carole finally lashed out mid way through their fight at Aviva's party.

[Trooper York]

Carole is nothing but dismissive of other people. Last year she started a war because Luann described herself as an Indian instead of a "Native American." Because who the hell are you to describe yourself and your ethnicity! She knows best!

Her first instinct when Aviva dissed her was to say "How dare you say that when you have never worked outside the home!"

She is one of the most arrogant and judgmental and dismissive of all of the housewives who obviously came on the show to be the super cool Greek chorus who would point out all the flaws of the lesser life forms.

How did that work out for her?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Trooper York

[WireWrap]

Carole is nothing but dismissive of other people. Last year she started a war because Luann described herself as an Indian instead of a "Native American." Because who the hell are you to describe yourself and your ethnicity! She knows best!

Her first instinct when Aviva dissed her was to say "How dare you say that when you have never worked outside the home!"

She is one of the most arrogant and judgmental and dismissive of all of the housewives who obviously came on the show to be the super cool Greek chorus who would point out all the flaws of the lesser life forms.

How did that work out for her?

That response to Aviva was after she, Carole, said that writing was her profession and Aviva again slammed her. You want her to just sit there and take what ever Aviva dishes out without defending herself? Carole was correct, Aviva has NEVER worked outside the home, she has NOT had a career that she cultivated with hard work over the years so she does NOT understand how damaging lies like that can be.

 

As for Carole's comment to Luann last year, it was a ridiculous PC comment but they moved on and made up so it is now a moot point. I don't think she is judgmental or dismissive towards her fellow cast members at all but I do think she makes mistakes just like they all do. At least Carole does NOT go after the other HW's private lives, husbands/boy friends, children, families,  marriages/relationships like some of her fellow cast members like/love to do. Oh, and she points out her own flaws and pokes fun at herself as well.

Edited August 18, 2014 by WireWrap

[mmepeacock]

I definitely think Carole could've handled it better if she wanted to kill the non-story of did she use a ghostwriter.

For whatever reason--to have a storyline, hubris, outrage, guilt--she didn't.

No one would be discussing whether she had a ghostwriter or not if she wasn't On This Show.

It's just not that interesting a piece of gossip. Tell me Philip Roth, or Martin Amis had his books ghostwritten and then it rises to a piece of literary gossip.

 

With that said:

Carole's reaction of "who are you?" made perfect sense to me. As a ghostwriter, I have never failed to be astonished at how quickly someone with passable spelling, poor grammar and no sense of storytelling suddenly calls himself an "author" bc of the words I've written --entirely-- under his name.

 

Aviva is NOT a professional writer. She's an author, and she took a detour (celebrity) to get there. Carole might have gotten a big boost from her connections with celebrity, but What Remains and her journalism pre-dates her transformation into a Housewife. Publishing is her industry, and her people. Aviva is not her equal.

 

If some one-off wannabe no-experience "it-takes-a-village" author started talking down to me or attempted some "Sisterhood of the Pen" shit with me, either in book publishing or a writer, I'd laugh in her face. SAHM, lawyer, whatever, as well, she got thrown into the deep end with water wings. She can't tell everyone she's a swimmer. I'd say congratulations and wait and see if she keeps writing or not, to earn the right to bitch at my level.

 

Makes me an arrogant fuck? Yeah, I guess. But short-cutters like Aviva burn my chaps. No one is a professional writer for fun or money, it's hard work, passion and not much else. Yet everyone seems to think they could do it if they had time/money/friend in publishing. Guess what? Almost no professional writer has those things to start out.

[Mozelle]

Somebody message me when this thread starts discussing something else because I just can't with this anymore.

 

How 'bout this? Carole and Kristen take part in the ice bucket challenge: 

 

 

Of course Bill Whitworth is not a writer because Carole says so. She is the only fount of wisdom that we need to consult about all thing literary. Perhaps she can edit his Wickipedia entry to erase all of his writing credits as she knows best. Last season she lets us in on the fact that she invented wearing capes despite what that poseur Batman might have to spay about it!

 

Well, given that Bill Whitworth spent 33 years working as an editor before retiring, I'm guessing that's why Carole refers to him first and foremost as an editor and not a writer. 

[Trooper York]

Actually she said he is not a writer and that is not true. But I understand that she gets to determine someone's ethnicity, professional standing, medical and physiological condition without dispute because...... Err....just because.

If that person doesn't like it she can just go on their Wikipedia page and edit it to her precise specifications. Because that is not arrogant and judgmental in the least.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Trooper York

[bref]

I always took Carole's late-night adventures in Wiki editing to be a joke.

[ryebread]

I know that they said wine glasses were more appropriate, but...it's called the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. 

 

So, where's the ice?  Nary a cube. 

 

Heather would have used ice.  Lots and lots of it.  More than anybody ever has in the history of the Ice Bucket Challenge.  And it would have been the coldest ice that anybody has used to date.

(In all seriousness, I hope they donated bucketsloads of cash. Doesn't matter if the water was lukewarm, if it brings awareness.)

[Mozelle]

Actually she said he is not a writer and that is not true. But I understand that she gets to determine someone's ethnicity, professional standing, medical and physiological condition without dispute because...... Err....just because.

If that person doesn't like it she can just go on their Wikipedia page and edit it to her precise specifications. Because that is not arrogant and judgmental in the least.

I think Bill Whitworth considers himself more of an editor than a writer. Here I go with another YouTube link* (I've got a chock-full ;) This one is nearly an hour and a half so no one is required to watch), but there's a moment between 3:20 and 5:15 where the moderator relates a story about telling Bill that he'd be more than welcome to write for the publication hosting the talk and Bill's response was "Oh, Marc, I got over that childish urge many years ago." (There's also the moment where Bill actually tries to distance himself from his early writing career much to the chagrin of the moderator, starting at 1:26:10 to the final moments of the video. Marc mentions Bill being a great writer and says, "he can disown his writing, but it's in print. He can't go around and tear it all up." Bill's response: "Unfortunately.")

Basically, Bill got/gets more fulfillment out of editing, and by the time Carole would have been working with him (she mentions him in her acknowledgments for What Remains), it seems that he would have likely been like, "Yep. I'm an editor. It's what I do. It's what I love." Hence, again, why I think Carole was saying, particularly as it pertains the accusation that Bill Whitworth is a/her ghost writer, that Bill Whitworth isn't a writer.

*Beware! I just learned how to post YT vids on this platform after several unsuccessful attempts over the past few months.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Mozelle