Carole Radziwill: She's a Real Princess!

[TessHarding2]

I like Carol. Out of all the Housewives, across all series, she is one of the few that inspires me. In the sense that, as a single, childfree woman in her mid-30s, she gives me hope that even if I don't find a wonderful partner, I can live a fabulous single life into my 50s. A life I'd actually want to live. Not the life that the media and society would have you believe is in store - one of a house full of cats (not that there is anything wrong with cats), no men, no love, no happiness, no smiles, looking like a hag and giving up on life. Carol shows that you don't have to be a hot mess like a Sonja, dependent on a man for your esteem. She appears to have a full life, with rich past experiences, she dates (albeit sometimes awkwardly), has friends, a career to be proud of, owns a great apartment in my favorite city in the world, smokes a little weed and smiles a lot. Seems pretty good to me!

 

Until I hear that Carol strangled some puppies or hates black people (I am black), I remain a fan. She is flawed, so is everyone else in life, and I enjoy watching on her on TV.

 

I tuned in to see Carole's apartment.  I had watched the show last year but didn't stick with it this season due to all the screaming.  Seemed like there was more screaming and screeching this year.  I can comment on what you wrote about living a fabulous life - really at any age.  I'm a born and raised New Yorker, I'm their age, no kids, a professional designer.    (Carole's hallway wallpaper is from Phillip Jeffries, the sample is great looking in person).  Conventional relationships aren't for me, but friendships are forever. 

 

I don't run with their kind of crowd but I sure see their type on a daily basis.  I do not think those women look good at all - except for LuAnn. They don't look good for their age or for any age really.  All the plastic surgery, the fillers, the extensions on top of their dry hair and skin - hey, we don't get better looking but we can keep it fresh and modern as time goes on.  My friends don't look like them.  I say LuAnn because she looks pulled together and appropriate, attractive.  (I still think she wears a wig topper on top of her hair).

 

Sorry, got off topic there.  Carole's apartment is my kind of dream, I just need her money.  It's the age thing I wanted to address - anyone can be happy with their life given health and the circumstances around them.  I was so looking forward to be in my 40's when suddenly some very close friends died.  So you're feeling good and right, work and love is happening, and then people are dying.  And worst of all, my best friend died at 45 and we were friends since we were 10.  So you go on.  It's all attitude which Carole seems to be a poster child for 50 and fabulous.  I have found that life is fabulous when you have what you need.  I look at Kristin and see how she got the fairytale she wanted and look at the selfish lump she's married to.  I'd runaway from home if I were married to him! 

Edited July 31, 2014 by TessHarding2

[Ipse Dixit]

I think I'm responding to a post from Reunion 1.0 thread, but it's all about Carole, so here goes.

 

The fact that she's won Emmys (and a Peabody? I missed that) shows that she's done good work, well reviewed by her peers - and she did the work with her peers, unless I miss my guess.  As part of the production team - as leader of the production team, perhaps - she still has won as part of a talented, hard-working, results-producing group.

 

That said ... how can she be so feckless in her arguments with Aviva?  She has to be taking direction from Miss Andy.  Woman's 50 years old and she hasn't learned that the way to win an argument with a stupid person is to give that person enough rope.... yep, a little more rope.... and boinggg! They've hung themselves.

 

Nobody can do this sort of thing faultlessly, but more is expected, IMHO, from someone with Carole's background and incredibly diverse life experiences.

 

When she went to grab Aviva's ghoulish face, I had a moment of recognition.  I was about Carole's age when I allowed myself to be goaded into anger so fierce I was thisclose to striking my opponent physically.  Not my finest hour - and I didn't have cameras recording me from at least 2 angles.  I don't excuse it in myself, nor in Carole.  Stay calm, stay quiet, think of more than ad hominems, even if they're getting flung at you non-stop.  If all else fails, walk away.

 

I don't have 1/3 of her life experiences, bad or good.  For this reason, her reaction to The Ghoul's bait surprised & dismayed.

 

Gutting the kitchen of everything kitchen-ish:  Yes, we see that your skinny self isn't interested in food, enough already. I honestly think the "tear it all out! Install an office!" was a hybrid of what a non-foodie like Carole would think, along with production immediately recognizing a "Say what?!" moment that would stick in viewers' minds.

 

"Michelle! Get Andy on the phone and see if we can buy Carole Razzie-well's gas stove used and save the difference!" -- Jim Bob Duggar

 

 

 

[ryebread]

I think most everyone believes she wrote her book.  Although she probably had some help.  I can't be more definitive than that.  Can anyone, though?  Quaintirene is a contributor to this forum and also in NYC publishing.  If I'm not mistaken, she did confirm that there was not a bidding war for Carole's second book.

 

Since you're watching that epi, I'm very interested in your opinion about how the accusations - about who had a ghostwriter and who didn't -  got started.  Did Carole bring it up first?  Or Aviva? 

[zoeysmom]

You know what? I just watched that episode today, where they had lunch and I can't for the life of me remember which one brought it up first. I know Aviva brought up her book. Then I can't remember if she mentioned writing it all by herself and Carole made a comment about having help or if Aviva mentioned writing her book and not having help like Carole did. I am going to watch it again when it comes on at another time because I do want to remember how that conversation went down. For world peace and all that jazz.

Didn't Aviva go up to Carole at the opening party and ask about "help" for her book.  Carole in a talking head made some crack about friends who want something.   I think if Carole had asked if Aviva found a co-writer, like every HW except Carole has used, much of this could have been averted.  it seemed to be a game of semantics at times.  Carole as the professional author should have maybe been a little kinder laying the groundwork. 

 

Since 90% of the time I take Aviva's word with a grain of salt I tried to fins something on the "open relationship" comment made by Aviva to Carole.  I think Carole said, "what a bitch."  Much to my surprise what Aviva said was true.  I found this blog of Sonja's talking about the Russ/Carole relationship.   http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-5/blogs/sonja-morgan/all-womens-bodies-are-beautiful?page=0,1

 

ETA:  The relevant portion is in the last paragraph of the page.

Edited August 3, 2014 by zoeysmom

[Grneyedldy]

I think most everyone believes she wrote her book.  Although she probably had some help.  I can't be more definitive than that.  Can anyone, though?  Quaintirene is a contributor to this forum and also in NYC publishing.  If I'm not mistaken, she did confirm that there was not a bidding war for Carole's second book.

 

Since you're watching that epi, I'm very interested in your opinion about how the accusations - about who had a ghostwriter and who didn't -  got started.  Did Carole bring it up first?  Or Aviva?

The actual episode shows Carole bringing it up first. But if you read Carole's blog for that episode, she goes into detail about Aviva asking her for ghost writer recommendations. And she further goes on to explain that she was just following up on their previous conversation regarding ghost writers. It was Aviva that used it to try to create DRAMA and turn it around on Carole. I guess Aviva didn't feel like slamming her leg on the table during that scene.

[ryebread]

The actual episode shows Carole bringing it up first. But if you read Carole's blog for that episode, she goes into detail about Aviva asking her for ghost writer recommendations. And she further goes on to explain that she was just following up on their previous conversation regarding ghost writers. It was Aviva that used it to try to create DRAMA and turn it around on Carole. I guess Aviva didn't feel like slamming her leg on the table during that scene.

I think this is probably why Aviva still has fans.  They likely don't read the blogs or do much of anything except watch the show and take what they see there at face value. 

I am going to watch it again when it comes on at another time because I do want to remember how that conversation went down. For world peace and all that jazz.

LOL.  Because these ARE first world problems.

 

Watch the Heather/Aviva pedicure scene carefully, too. For research. This is the episode when Heather, for me, reveals her true inner snake.  All she can think of is defending Carole's honor, even though she's hearing the story second hand.  IIRC she totally steers the pedi conversation and the scene is so manipulated.

[zoeysmom]

I think this is probably why Aviva still has fans.  They likely don't read the blogs or do much of anything except watch the show and take what they see there at face value. 

LOL.  Because these ARE first world problems.

 

Watch the Heather/Aviva pedicure scene carefully, too. For research. This is the episode when Heather, for me, reveals her true inner snake.  All she can think of is defending Carole's honor, even though she's hearing the story second hand.  IIRC she totally steers the pedi conversation and the scene is so manipulated.

I think that was Aviva's point in dealing with Kristen-Kristen kept trying to direct the conversation towards the Carole issue.   I don't mind if they edit for brevity but they need to keep the gist of the conversation in. I also don't believe the kids were in as close proximity as the cameras would like us to believe when the STFU was said.  I think Carole realized she had little going on-her book was due to be out and she wanted maximum exposure about her book.

I think this is probably why Aviva still has fans.  They likely don't read the blogs or do much of anything except watch the show and take what they see there at face value. 

LOL.  Because these ARE first world problems.

 

Watch the Heather/Aviva pedicure scene carefully, too. For research. This is the episode when Heather, for me, reveals her true inner snake.  All she can think of is defending Carole's honor, even though she's hearing the story second hand.  IIRC she totally steers the pedi conversation and the scene is so manipulated.

The idea of a ghost writer as opposed to a co-author is a ghostwriter is anonymous.  So even Carole using the word was a direct slam at Aviva.  I think everyone-especially Carole was disgusted with Aviva's behavior at Carole's book launch party last season they weren't really ready to move on.

[technorebel]

I can't get a fix on Carole. She seems like the type who is always drawing attention to her hipsterness. If there is life happening around her and it veers away from people thinking she is the inventor of hipsterness, she gets her hipster on to remind them. I would love to see her in scenes with that other "I am so hip I hurt" lady, the one from that advice show that had three women searching for love. The one who was from the midwest and moved to San Fransisco, discovered sex, as in OMG TEH SEX!! Let me proclaim that sex exists in the world so people will know and after two weeks she was too cool for school. Not that Carole is getting her sex on, but it is the I'm cool that has to be proclaimed all.the.time.

I felt really sorry for that dog she was supposed to be dog watching. I think he felt unhip and wanted to go to the fun lady's house to be walked.

I have a special kind of eye roll that I save for women who just have to let people know they don't cook or use a kitchen. Because the fingerless gloves didn't clue you in enough to her special brand of hipsterness.

I don't think Carole's home is anything spectacular. It is a glorified studio. What did impress me was the views from Ramona's apartment. I had to rewatch the scenes of her standing in front of her window with the makeup artist when Avery was getting ready for her prom. I wanted to crawl into the tv and press my nose against the window.

I feel exactly the same way about Carole. Remember the episode where she goes to that occupy wall street event. She gets a fake tattoo painted on her arm. Then, while having coffee with her friend, she says, "We're not part of the one percent, are we", as if she's horrified of the idea.

I rolled my eyes so hard they got stuck up in the top of my head. Nothing wrong with having money. But don't act like you're so cool that the idea shocks you.

[comatoast]

The actual episode shows Carole bringing it up first. But if you read Carole's blog for that episode, she goes into detail about Aviva asking her for ghost writer recommendations. And she further goes on to explain that she was just following up on their previous conversation regarding ghost writers. It was Aviva that used it to try to create DRAMA and turn it around on Carole. I guess Aviva didn't feel like slamming her leg on the table during that scene.

I'm sick and with nothing better do to so I'm watching that episode again. Once again I feel that it was much ado about absolutely nothing. Carole clearly still had issues with Aviva and was maybe overly sensitive, taking things the wrong way.

 

OK, kids, here is that scene in a nutshell:

There was talk about the hot guys moving Aviva, pasta, and the eyeglasses and "good look" that Carole apparently owns the rights to. Then Carole asks what Aviva has been up to, and the whole writing bit started. She mentioned it being fun, and even says that had it been a novel it would have been different but since it's a memoir she was writing in her own voice. There is talk about the editing process, in which Carole claims to edit every single word or letter or whatever. And then, the question from Carol: "Did you end up hiring a writer?" Aviva said no. Probably confused if there had in fact been off-air conversations about this, Carol kept asking. Aviva kept saying, "No. I just wrote." Then the e-mailing line followed by Carols' TH about how it's not like writing an e-mail and that saying those things undermines those who spend forever honing the craft. Then Carol says, "I thought u were going to hire someone." And once again Aviva says no, and reminds Carol about her Chicken Soup essay. Carol said that was not a book. And Aviva asks if "What Remains" was her first book. Writer Girl starts with the whole "I mean, I was a journalist for 15 years and wrote a lot blah blah." Aviva says that she wrote a lot of essays, and asks Carole if she ghosted her books. I don't see why that would be so insulting if it's not true, but whatever. Carols responds, "I mean, I'm a writer." Aviva says, "OK, but even though WR was your first book you did it yourself, right?" It sounds like she also asks, "Was it scary?" But it's hard to tell because Carole is back on her "I'm a writer, 20 years, blah, blah..." And then a TH from Carol about not understanding Aviva's agenda.

 

I mean, what's the big deal? I mean, really.

Edited August 3, 2014 by comatoast

[ryebread]

ryebread Yes, I saw Heather be the one to bring up the book at the pedicure with Aviva and then spin it later that Aviva went on and on about the book.

Well hell, stewed, since you've watched the pedi and Heather's spin...in the next episode we see Carole ask Heather if Aviva said anything about her when Heather and Aviva pedicured. "Yes, She brought you up."  Or somesuch.  I'd like to see that part again because all I remember thinking was that Heather was a lying liar that lies and she was the one that was the instigator.  Overtalking, as usual, so only her voice is heard. Just so she could get her side of the story out.  Or her perception of the story.  She does that a lot by either overtalking or shutting up her co-workers.

 

I think Aviva is as shit stirring as the next but I can't hate on her fully because what if - WHAT IF - Carole and Heather were the true instigators in the whole freaking bookgate mess which propelled the entire season.  And made every.single.thing. Aviva did or said appear to be lies or crazy.

 

I mean, what's the big deal? I mean, really.

Shouldn't have been.  I think there was a lot of spin created to make it one.  Bottom line for me, it looked like 2 authors asking questions of each other.  Who had more experience or awards didn't make a difference in who was entitled to ask the questions or not.

[Mozelle]

If ghost writing isn't a big deal then Aviva shouldn't have denied it when asked if she hired a writer. Carole can't be expected to shrug it off while Aviva gets to lies and say that she had no ghost writer. Or gets to say that writing this story was just like drafting an email.

Even at the reunion, Aviva was claiming that her book wasn't ghost written, so, again, how does she get the benefit of saying she had no ghost writer but Carole should shrug off someone trying to malign her career?

Edited August 3, 2014 by Mozelle

[ryebread]

If ghost writing isn't a big deal then Aviva shouldn't have denied it when asked if she hired a writer. Carole can't be expected to shrug it off while Aviva gets to lies and say that she had no ghost writer. Or gets to say that writing this story was just like drafting an email.

Even at the reunion, Aviva was claiming that her book wasn't ghost written, so, again, how does she get the benefit of saying she had no ghost writer but Carole should shrug off someone trying to malign her career?

But is it a proven fact that Aviva used a ghostwriter?  I don't doubt she had an editor, but self admittedly, so did Carole. I think Carole had a bigger hand in maligning her career by engaging and continuing to engage with Aviva over that topic.

 

Carole can't be expected to shrug it off while Aviva gets to lies and say that she had no ghost writer. Or gets to say that writing this story was just like drafting an email.

Who says writing memoirs couldn't be like writing an email? I'd like to hear Aviva explain.  I believe that's another sound bite that got blown way out.  Some of my emails I send, are longer and more thought out than my journal entries.  If I ever wanted to write a memoir, I would certainly reference my journals but also emails, to and from me.  In the same way that many writers, before email, referenced hand written correspondence for material - especially memoirs.  Writing a letter, writing an email. I don't get the hoopla. I don't doubt Aviva sat at a computer and wrote thoughts as she thought of them in Word.  She got enough of these email-like paragraphs together and then got an editor to help her put them together.  Is that considered a ghostwritten book?

[comatoast]

If ghost writing isn't a big deal then Aviva shouldn't have denied it when asked if she hired a writer. Carole can't be expected to shrug it off while Aviva gets to lies and say that she had no ghost writer. Or gets to say that writing this story was just like drafting an email.

Even at the reunion, Aviva was claiming that her book wasn't ghost written, so, again, how does she get the benefit of saying she had no ghost writer but Carole should shrug off someone trying to malign her career?

I don't think there has been any mention about ghostwriting itself not being a big deal. What I don't see as a big deal is the question that started this whole drama.  A question Carol could have answered with a simple no, as Aviva did when Carol repeatedly questioned her.  Aviva could have been inquiring about ghostwriters and changed her mind. But even if Carol knew for a fact that Aviva was lying, why did that matter to her at that point? Aviva lying does not in any way take anything away from "What Remains" having been a success and well-written by most accounts. I just don’t see anything that would indicate Aviva was trying to malign Carol's career in that scene.  In subsequent scenes, oh yeah, but not in that initial scene. Also, Aviva's experience may very well have been like writing an e-mail, whether she had a ghostwriter or not.

[comatoast]

Shouldn't have been.  I think there was a lot of spin created to make it one.  Bottom line for me, it looked like 2 authors asking questions of each other.  Who had more experience or awards didn't make a difference in who was entitled to ask the questions or not.

That's what it looked like to me. If we follow Carol's logic with regards to Aviva's essay not being a book, well, the writing Carol did in her 15 year career as a journalist was not a book, either. She's the one who turned it into a pissing match.

[ryebread]

Because I think it's true, revisiting a post from lunastartron:

If I didn't find What Remains somewhat overrated and Carole herself insufferable and inconsistent with respect to her take on writing in general (apparently likening the process to authoring "long e-mails" is so insulting, despite the fact that WR originated as monologues Carole spoke into a tape recorder), I would probably be more horrified.

[Mozelle]

Because I find Aviva to be a liar of epic proportions, I think her "it was like writing a really long email" to be her pivot to change the conversation. Actually, I think her response to Carole's reminder that Aviva's Chicken Soup for the Soul essay was a letter to her own mother was the more quick pivot. When Carole mentioned it, that was when Aviva asked if What Remains was Carole's first book and whether it was ghost written.

 

Anyway, I simply don't think that Aviva wrote email-like paragraphs and just had them edited into a book. That's not how that works. I can see her getting thoughts and outlines and bullet points together and then passing them on to the person who would ultimately draft those thoughts, outlines, and bullet points into a book-length work. Googling being a wonderful thing, I looked up the acknowledgements for Leggy Blonde, and the first two women who Aviva list are co-writers, one of whom wrote Snookie's book and the other who wrote (or co-wrote) the memoir of the girl who was raped by Roman Polanski. Meanwhile, the acknowledgements for What Remains details Carole's thanks to her family and friends who were her first readers followed by a thanks to the Bill Whitworth man who Aviva name dropped in an episode followed by thanks to her (Carole's) agent, etc.

 

And while Aviva the lying liar who lies asking Carole if What Remains was ghost written doesn't change past sales of the book, it is now something that taints Carole, even if others want to act like it doesn't. However, more important, I can see why Carole would take Aviva's lies seriously. Aviva is the kind of person who will lie, convince herself that what she's saying is the truth, then go on to try to convince others of her lies...even in the face of someone saying, "Yeah, no, Aviva. That isn't what happened."

 

She did it in St. Barth's when she kept going in on Sonja and Ramona going to bars, getting drunk, and bringing home different men. Though Sonja and Ramona both corrected Aviva's tales, letting her know that it was actually LuAnn who had brought someone home, Aviva looked them in the eyes, and, though her ass was nowhere on the island when the women were going out, told Sonja and Ramona that they were wrong about something they'd experienced. Not only were they wrong according to Aviva, but what Aviva was saying, without any information or with a lot of misinformation, was actually the truth.

 

So fast forward to Aviva's word on the street proclamations, and I still don't fault for Carole for being upset by Aviva's lies and misrepresentation. What's the saying--a lie can travel around the world in the time it takes the truth to put on its shoes. People who are cursory viewers aren't going to take the time to research the trustworthiness of Aviva's claims.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Mozelle

[comatoast]

So fast forward to Aviva's word on the street proclamations, and I still don't fault for Carole for being upset by Aviva's lies and misrepresentation. What's the saying--a lie can travel around the world in the time it takes the truth to put on its shoes. People who are cursory viewers aren't going to take the time to research the trustworthiness of Aviva's claims.

I don't fault Carol for being upset about the lies about her own work, either. I just don't believe that simple question would have had any kind of effect on Carol's reputation. It wasn't a declaration, just a question. At that point, Aviva was lying about her own work, not about Carol's. That only taints Aviva, not Carol. Now the spreading of rumors and using Bill Whitworth's name like if she was in the know is another story. But that occurred after. No doubt Aviva's reaction to her perceived slight was vicious and grossly out of proportion, as was her reaction to the girl's trip last season, but Carol made a mountain out of a holemill in terms of what was actually said in that first scene.

For RHONY discussions maybe we should change it to: a lie can travel around the world in the time it takes Aviva to take off her leg?

[FozzyBear]

I don't fault Carol for being upset about the lies about her own work, either. I just don't believe that simple question would have had any kind of effect on Carol's reputation. It wasn't a declaration, just a question. At that point, Aviva was lying about her own work, not about Carol's. That only taints Aviva, not Carol. Now the spreading of rumors and using Bill Whitworth's name like if she was in the know is another story. But that occurred after. No doubt Aviva's reaction to her perceived slight was vicious and grossly out of proportion, as was her reaction to the girl's trip last season, but Carol made a mountain out of a holemill in terms of what was actually said in that first scene.

For RHONY discussions maybe we should change it to: a lie can travel around the world in the time it takes Aviva to take off her leg?

Yeah I'm with you. If Carol could have gotten off her high horse for two minutes she could have told Aviva no she didn't use a ghost writer and then maybe had a discussion about the pros and cons of a ghost writer or talked about how much her editor helped her define her style or whatever. Basically she could have turned that initial conversation into another commercial for The Widows Guide which she needed since sales have not been great (as far as I've heard from the word on the street). Instead she got offended because...I STILL DONT KNOW! Later sure, but at the lunch? What? Aviva asked her if she used a ghost writer? Aviva said she had fun writing her book? Aviva said she didn't hire a ghost writer after asking for recommendations (which even though I think Aviva probably did use one, asking for names and then deciding not to use one is not exactly the proof reporter girl seems to think it is)? Being like Luanne and not realizing she is not good enough to have a conversation with Carole? I'm going with the last one.

[comatoast]

Yeah I'm with you. If Carol could have gotten off her high horse for two minutes she could have told Aviva no she didn't use a ghost writer and then maybe had a discussion about the pros and cons of a ghost writer or talked about how much her editor helped her define her style or whatever. Basically she could have turned that initial conversation into another commercial for The Widows Guide which she needed since sales have not been great (as far as I've heard from the word on the street).

Exactly. She could have used that opportunity to impress us with her superiority and vast knowledge of the industry, making Aviva look like a silly wannabe by contrast, but nope.  Instead she gave us lines like: "I mean, I’m a writer."  "I mean, I was a journalist." I mean, as someone who hasn't read any of her books and was thinking about maybe doing so, I was very unimpressed by that.

[Lisin]

My best guess (and keep in mind I'm not saying I'm right or that Carole is) for why Carole got so upset at the initial lunch was because of how flip Aviva was being about the writing process. Carole was clearly (unless the editing monkeys screwed up the timeline) in the midst of editing her first fictional book, I'm sure she was stressed about it and Aviva was sitting there acting like it was easy breezy to write her memoir, meanwhile Carole knows how hard she worked on her memoir. I could see myself getting peeved in a situation like that. Especially if it were about something I prided myself on. I think that's why Carole brought up the ghostwriter thing at all, Aviva is all "It's so easy, it was fun, it's like writing a long email" and Carole responds with "did you use a ghostwriter?" because in her mind the only way it could be easy, fun and like writing a long email is if it was ghosted. 

 

 

[comatoast]

My best guess (and keep in mind I'm not saying I'm right or that Carole is) for why Carole got so upset at the initial lunch was because of how flip Aviva was being about the writing process. Carole was clearly (unless the editing monkeys screwed up the timeline) in the midst of editing her first fictional book, I'm sure she was stressed about it and Aviva was sitting there acting like it was easy breezy to write her memoir, meanwhile Carole knows how hard she worked on her memoir. I could see myself getting peeved in a situation like that. Especially if it were about something I prided myself on. I think that's why Carole brought up the ghostwriter thing at all, Aviva is all "It's so easy, it was fun, it's like writing a long email" and Carole responds with "did you use a ghostwriter?" because in her mind the only way it could be easy, fun and like writing a long email is if it was ghosted. 

That does make sense. Too bad she ended up looking like a condescending jerk to some of us.

[Lisin]

Exactly @comatoast while I do understand (I think) why she got pissed initially I just think she reacted so poorly that there's not really any way to defend it. I mean "She was really mad" only goes so far. 

[comatoast]

Yeah, the "really mad" excuse doesn't work for others, why does Carol get so much mileage out of it.

[LotusFlower]

Do you guys remember the controversy that erupted when Natalie Portman won an Oscar for the movie The Black Swan, largely due to the lie that she sacrificed so much for the role and did all the dancing, when in fact her stand-in did almost all of the dance scenes? When the real dancer, the stand-in, told her story, one thing she said really stood out - she said that ballet dancers, esp. at the elite level, start at such a young age and sacrifice so much to get to that level of skill and artistry. So that when someone comes in and not only poses as that elite dancer, but then wins accolades for it, it felt like such a slap in the face to all true dancers, and all the hard work that they represent. I feel like this is what Carole felt like when Aviva talked so casually about writing her memoir. Carole's a writer by trade, and she takes it very seriously. Writing her memoir was a long, arduous, and again, serious endeavor. To see someone come in and treat the whole thing like a long e-mail must have just stuck in her craw.

Edited August 4, 2014 by LotusFlower

[Mozelle]

My best guess (and keep in mind I'm not saying I'm right or that Carole is) for why Carole got so upset at the initial lunch was because of how flip Aviva was being about the writing process. Carole was clearly (unless the editing monkeys screwed up the timeline) in the midst of editing her first fictional book, I'm sure she was stressed about it and Aviva was sitting there acting like it was easy breezy to write her memoir, meanwhile Carole knows how hard she worked on her memoir. I could see myself getting peeved in a situation like that. Especially if it were about something I prided myself on. I think that's why Carole brought up the ghostwriter thing at all, Aviva is all "It's so easy, it was fun, it's like writing a long email" and Carole responds with "did you use a ghostwriter?" because in her mind the only way it could be easy, fun and like writing a long email is if it was ghosted.

  

Do you guys remember the controversy that erupted when Natalie Portman won an Oscar for the movie The Black Swan, largely due to the lie that she sacrificed so much for the role and did all the dancing, when in fact her stand-in did almost all of the dance scenes? When the real dancer, the stand-in, told her story, one thing she said really stood out - she said that ballet dancers, esp. at the elite level, start at such a young age and sacrifice so much to get to that level of skill and artistry. So that when someone comes in and not only poses as that elite dancer, but then wins accolades for it, it felt like such a slap in the face to all true dancers, and all the hard work that they represent. I feel like this is what Carole felt like when Aviva talked so casually about writing her memoir. Carole's a writer by trade, and she takes it very seriously. Writing her memoir was a long, arduous, and again, serious endeavor. To see someone come in and treat the whole thing like a long e-mail must have just stuck in her craw.

I think you're both on the right track. I especially agree with your analogy, LotusFlower.

I also think that Carole's anger over it gets justified because it was her career Aviva was throwing shade on. It wasn't, like, a messed up blow dry.

[zoeysmom]

Many years ago I took a "fun" job as a bartender at a very upscale restaurant.  I was six months away from getting married to a professional.  My first day I was being trained by a 30 something very serious woman who supported her two children from being a bartender at  the establishment.  I made the mistake of saying, "this looks like fun."  The woman hated me.  When I asked the owner of the establishment, who owned the place just as a hobby for the most part, as her husband was very wealthy and built the place to keep her busy, why Ann hated me, she said you trivialized her job.  My husband agreed.  That is what I saw Aviva doing to Carole.

 

I do think Carole took it too far, and I don't think the writing process makes for good TV.  Then I took a look at the title of Carole's new book of essays, "Finding Liam Neeson."   First off, I thought maybe the two of them connected both being widowed and there was a budding love story.  Apparently, Carole finds Liam Neeson to be the perfect man.   No such thing it was Carole, once again using the name of another to make a buck.  So as much as Aviva trivialized Carole's process, Carole should maybe look within and see she is a bit of cheap huckster and name dropping in epic proportions.  

 

ETA:  Speaking of book writing Real Housewives this stuns me:    http://www.allabouttrh.com/vicki-gunvalsons-new-book-tops-amazon-best-sellers-list/  I guess using a co-write ain't so bad after all.

Edited August 4, 2014 by zoeysmom

[LotusFlower]

I think you're both on the right track. I especially agree with your analogy, LotusFlower.

I also think that Carole's anger over it gets justified because it was her career Aviva was throwing shade on. It wasn't, like, a messed up blow dry.

LOL! And a good analogy right back at ya, Mozelle! "Who are you to get me wet?" will never get old. Maybe Carole should have said "who are you to call yourself a writer..."

[comatoast]

Many years ago I took a "fun" job as a bartender at a very upscale restaurant.  I was six months away from getting married to a professional.  My first day I was being trained by a 30 something very serious woman who supported her two children from being a bartender at  the establishment.  I made the mistake of saying, "this looks like fun."  The woman hated me.  When I asked the owner of the establishment, who owned the place just as a hobby for the most part, as her husband was very wealthy and built the place to keep her busy, why Ann hated me, she said you trivialized her job.  My husband agreed.  That is what I saw Aviva doing to Carole.

 

I do think Carole took it too far, and I don't think the writing process makes for good TV.  Then I took a look at the title of Carole's new book of essays, "Finding Liam Neeson."   First off, I thought maybe the two of them connected both being widowed and there was a budding love story.  Apparently, Carole finds Liam Neeson to be the perfect man.   No such thing it was Carole, once again using the name of another to make a buck.  So as much as Aviva trivialized Carole's process, Carole should maybe look within and see she is a bit of cheap huckster and name dropping in epic proportions.  

 

ETA:  Speaking of book writing Real Housewives this stuns me:    http://www.allabouttrh.com/vicki-gunvalsons-new-book-tops-amazon-best-sellers-list/  I guess using a co-write ain't so bad after all.

Ah, see, while I understand being extra sensitive at times and taking things the wrong way, I disagree that Aviva trivialized Carols' career. (Surprise, surprise, eh? :- )

Just like I don't see how you trivialized the other lady's job. If any job was trivialized it was yours and only yours, regardless of whether you did the exact same thing or not. It was your reality that it looked like fun, and for anyone to insist otherwise trivializes how you felt, your opinion, and your reality at the time. Same goes for the Aviva/Carol drama.

[ryebread]

It was your reality that it looked like fun, and for anyone to insist otherwise trivializes how you felt, your opinion, and your reality at the time. Same goes for the Aviva/Carol drama.

I agree.

My first day I was being trained by a 30 something very serious woman who supported her two children from being a bartender at  the establishment.  I made the mistake of saying, "this looks like fun."  The woman hated me.

zoeysmom:  As I read this I was thinking, "Her bitterness is not your problem."  And I felt bad for her kids if she felt trivialized over something so silly.  Did she, at least, have a great ass?

 

ETA:  I get why Carole might have felt trivialized but if she's secure in her work she should have considered the source and moved along.  Nobody put her future career in jeopardy except her by engaging further with Aviva.  She signed up for this mess and knew that nothing is sacred.  Not a career, nor marriage, nor physical or mental disability.  It's all fair game as far as Andy and friends are concerned.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ryebread

[shoegal]

If ghost writing isn't a big deal then Aviva shouldn't have denied it when asked if she hired a writer. Carole can't be expected to shrug it off while Aviva gets to lies and say that she had no ghost writer. Or gets to say that writing this story was just like drafting an email.

Even at the reunion, Aviva was claiming that her book wasn't ghost written, so, again, how does she get the benefit of saying she had no ghost writer but Carole should shrug off someone trying to malign her career?

 

This.  Yes, Carole asked at the lunch if Aviva hired a writer.  Aviva said no.  Carole dropped the issue.  She didn't insist that Aviva did have a ghostwriter.  She didn't claim that "word on the street" is that Aviva did have a ghostwriter and that ghostwriter was so-and-so (although it's Valerie Frankel, right??).  For all the shit that Carole gets about not letting "bookgate" go, Aviva was the one who kept it going with the accusations.  Carole wasn't the one going around insisting that Aviva did have a ghostwriter even though Aviva said she didn't.   I can't wait for Aviva to make the claim at the reunion that if someone says something about you that's not true, you just say it's not true and move on.  Aviva, the Queen of Protesting Too Much.  I mean, I guess it's different if someone claims you don't really have asthma.  Then you whip out the chest x-rays, the inhalers, the medical exams and start flinging your prosthetic leg across the room.  However, if someone says that your career-your actual livelihood- is not really yours but is someone else's and you are a big old fake, then you just laugh it off and keep moving, no harm no foul. 

[FozzyBear]

I don't know if I say would Carol let it go at the lunch. My memory is she kept brining up Aviva saying that she was going to use one then Aviva asked her if she did then Carol said no because she's reporter girl.

Edited August 5, 2014 by FozzyBear

[shoegal]

I don't know if I say would Carol let it go at the lunch. My memory is she kept brining up Aviva saying that she was going to use one then Aviva asked her if she did then Carol said no because she's reporter girl.

 

I think Carole asked twice at the lunch, however, after the lunch, has Carole ever said that Aviva did hire a ghostwriter?  Or even suggest that Aviva hired a ghostwriter?  Aviva brought up Carole having a ghostwriter for What Remains (and even named him as Bill Whitworth) at the pedicure with Heather, wine shopping with Ramona, at Luann's BBQ party in the Hamptons, and finally again at her own housewarming party.  Aviva was the one making accusations and not letting it go.  Carole never brought up Aviva having a ghostwriter again that I can remember. 

[FozzyBear]

I think Carole asked twice at the lunch, however, after the lunch, has Carole ever said that Aviva did hire a ghostwriter? Or even suggest that Aviva hired a ghostwriter? Aviva brought up Carole having a ghostwriter for What Remains (and even named him as Bill Whitworth) at the pedicure with Heather, wine shopping with Ramona, at Luann's BBQ party in the Hamptons, and finally again at her own housewarming party. Aviva was the one making accusations and not letting it go. Carole never brought up Aviva having a ghostwriter again that I can remember.

Oh after the lunch! Oh yeah, Aviva was being a bitch. Totally get why Carol was upset by the time the housewarming party happened. I think she handled it badly by not even allowing Aviva to tell her side of the story before launching into her apples and spaceships line (seriously if anyone had ever asked me to come have a private conversation with them during a party I was hosting and then spoken to me like that I would have asked her to get her great ass the fuck out of my house), but I get why she was offended by Aviva at that point. I was only speaking of the lunch and right after when she met up with Heather and Kristen and acted like she was near tears about it. I still don't get why she was so upset at that point.

I do wonder though if Aviva would have opened her full box of crazy on Carol if Heather hadn't gone into guard dog mode and invited her to get a mani/pedi was the not so subtle purpose of calling her stupid.

[MatildaMoody]

 

I was only speaking of the lunch and right after when she met up with Heather and Kristen and acted like she was near tears about it. I still don't get why she was so upset at that point.

I think it was the shock of realizing what had just been said about her career on national television. And considering the way Aviva behaved the prior season, she probably realized that Aviva was going to keep bringing it up on camera whenever she could.

Edited August 5, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[shoegal]

Oh after the lunch! Oh yeah, Aviva was being a bitch. Totally get why Carol was upset by the time the housewarming party happened. I think she handled it badly by not even allowing Aviva to tell her side of the story before launching into her apples and spaceships line (seriously if anyone had ever asked me to come have a private conversation with them during a party I was hosting and then spoken to me like that I would have asked her to get her great ass the fuck out of my house), but I get why she was offended by Aviva at that point. I was only speaking of the lunch and right after when she met up with Heather and Kristen and acted like she was near tears about it. I still don't get why she was so upset at that point.

I do wonder though if Aviva would have opened her full box of crazy on Carol if Heather hadn't gone into guard dog mode and invited her to get a mani/pedi was the not so subtle purpose of calling her stupid.

 

I don't remember Carole being near tears during the conversation with Kristin and Heather about the lunch, but more incredulous and probably a little leery about where Aviva was headed with all of this, I think it came out of left field for Carole.  Carole has already stated that she was over Aviva by this point because she'd been able to witness Aviva's full on crazy from last season (remember, she didn't witness the Aviva crazy first hand until she watched the season) and she was irritated that Aviva was throwing shade on What Remains (which I don't blame her for that) and didn't expect it. 

 

I don't have a problem with the way Carole acted at the lunch, I did not find her to be antagonistic or hostile.  I think Carole pissed Aviva off by mentioning the writer, because Aviva wants people to believe that she wrote the book herself (maybe she did...I doubt it, but whatever).  I believe a conversation/request for writer referrals was made by Aviva to Carole off season because Aviva did seem to know what Carole was talking about when Carole asked if Aviva hired the writer.  If that previous conversation about hiring a writer had never taken place, Aviva wouldn't have known what Carole was talking about.  Add that to the scenario that Aviva "wrote" the book "in a hot minute" and I can see why Carole questioned whether Aviva had hired the writer (which I believe she did). 

 

I believe that Aviva opened up her bag of crazy on Carole because she wanted Carole to throw her a parade for writing a book and that she and Carole would be all "we are writers" together (bitch stole her look, and her career) and that Carole would give her mad props and respect for telling her story (as Aviva believes she deserves).  Instead, Carole seemed unimpressed and it lit a fire in Aviva.  I believe Aviva "will not be IGNORED..." and the bunny boiling ensued. 

Edited August 5, 2014 by shoegal

[comatoast]

I think Carole asked twice at the lunch, however, after the lunch, has Carole ever said that Aviva did hire a ghostwriter?  Or even suggest that Aviva hired a ghostwriter?  Aviva brought up Carole having a ghostwriter for What Remains (and even named him as Bill Whitworth) at the pedicure with Heather, wine shopping with Ramona, at Luann's BBQ party in the Hamptons, and finally again at her own housewarming party.  Aviva was the one making accusations and not letting it go.  Carole never brought up Aviva having a ghostwriter again that I can remember. 

No, by that point she had moved on to diagnosing Aviva's mental stability (deranged, psychopath, and later on Munchausen Syndrome). In light of the fact that Aviva has admitted to phobias resulting from trauma, to me it was very similar to what Aviva did when she felt wronged – she fought back and fought back dirty.

 

I think we all agree that Carol was justified in her anger once Aviva actually attacked her career. It is before that where we disagree. To some of us Carol wasn’t simply a poor victim attacked by the big, bad Aviva. She played a role in the beginning, and then continued to do so (again, justifiably so) when Aviva attacked her career.

[comatoast]

I believe that Aviva opened up her bag of crazy on Carole because she wanted Carole to throw her a parade for writing a book and that she and Carole would be all "we are writers" together (bitch stole her look, and her career) and that Carole would give her mad props and respect for telling her story (as Aviva believes she deserves).  Instead, Carole seemed unimpressed and it lit a fire in Aviva.  I believe Aviva "will not be IGNORED..." and the bunny boiling ensued. 

She even said as much when she kept going on about the non-well-wisher bit. And then she took it too far.

[shoegal]

No, by that point she had moved on to diagnosing Aviva's mental stability (deranged, psychopath, and later on Munchausen Syndrome). In light of the fact that Aviva has admitted to phobias resulting from trauma, to me it was very similar to what Aviva did when she felt wronged – she fought back and fought back dirty.

 

I think we all agree that Carol was justified in her anger once Aviva actually attacked her career. It is before that where we disagree. To some of us Carol wasn’t simply a poor victim attacked by the big, bad Aviva. She played a role in the beginning, and then continued to do so (again, justifiably so) when Aviva attacked her career.

 

The difference is, to me, that Aviva felt wronged, but Carole was wronged.  Aviva was pissed that Carole was unimpressed, so Aviva went on the attack.  Carole was responding to the attack, and yes, she got pissed and fought back. 

 

Oh, and Aviva's phobias?  Those were so last season. 

[LotusFlower]

I believe that Aviva opened up her bag of crazy on Carole because she wanted Carole to throw her a parade for writing a book and that she and Carole would be all "we are writers" together (bitch stole her look, and her career) and that Carole would give her mad props and respect for telling her story (as Aviva believes she deserves).  Instead, Carole seemed unimpressed and it lit a fire in Aviva.  I believe Aviva "will not be IGNORED..." and the bunny boiling ensued.

I agree with this, but I think it's more calculating than this. Remember, Aviva comes from the school of Jill Zarin - which, in Reality TV 101, she learned to create a storyline for drama and relevance. To say she expected a banner congratulating her for her book deal is undoubtedly true, but her hurt reaction on its own is far too organic for Aviva. I think she went into it with a plan to discredit Carole for the sake of drama. At least that's the word on the street, if you catch my drift.

[Lakewood27]

At least that's the word on the street...

 

Yep. Still funny!

[motorcitymom65]

I guess it mystifies me that anyone would question why Carole would be upset/pissed/offended, etc. by what Aviva said.  The way I remember it is that Aviva didn't just ask her if she had used a Ghost, she had apparently been doing a little research on it, and had all of this "word on the street" bullshit to throw around. How fucking creepy would it feel to know that someone was digging into your professional credentials like that, for no good reason? Someone you had watched tear other folks down the season before? She didn't bitch slap her, so I would say she didn't overreact in any way.

 

And if there is any potential that Aviva wasn't really the one trying to advance the Ghost storyline, that really this was something that Heather and Carole threw together to make Aviva look bad, then why didn't Aviva move away from it? How many times did she say things like "what's the big deal in using a ghost?", or "no one writes a book alone, it takes a village".  I haven't seen the clip from the Reunion that airs tonight, but word on the street is Aviva will bring up that old rumor that Harper Lee used a ghost for To Kill a Mockingbird.  I am sure she will say it to basically make her original point, which was that doing this isn't such a big deal, which to me proves that she was the one who was all over driving this drama. She is too dumb, or has never done anything really meaningful in her life, which I assume is the reason she is incapable of understanding why this would be so hurtful for someone to hear. 

[Duke2801]

Apologies if anybody has already posted this, but I found this interview with Carole on buzzfeed very interesting.  She gives some interesting tidbits of info, including this info about Reid and Aviva:

 

CR: And Aviva’s asthma thing is just, like — it’s hard to take her asthma seriously because her husband at one point called the production team, the executive producer, and said, “I’ll get her to Montana in exchange for a guarantee that she’ll be on next season.” The executive producer told me, Ramona, and Sonja that in Montana. So it’s, like, we’re hearing that, behind-the-scenes, back-door deals. So it’s not like we’re horrible, insensitive women that are calling her a liar. It’s, like, No, this is actually what’s going on.

 

[Mozelle]

Thanks for the link! Man, if that's true (and I don't doubt that it is), that also could be why Aviva's ass was removed from the opening credits during the Montana episodes. If Reid and Aviva thought that they could extort, essentially, a future contract for Aviva I'd bet that production was like, "This looney tunes. We'll show her."

 

From the interview:

 

The last moments of the finale — the leg-throwing — were also completely insane.
 

CR: I think she knew she had to do something explosive. You know what, I picked up that leg. And I did have a flash of empathy. Because this is someone I cared about a long, long time ago. And just — humanity. I see the leg on the floor, and that was real. When I went over and I gave it to her, I said, “It’s too much.” I wasn’t talking to the camera. I was saying, “It’s too much. You need real help. It’s not OK.” I wasn’t repulsed by the leg. I had a very sick husband for a long time. I did a piece in Cambodia about prosthetics. I know all about medical stuff. It’s not something that startled me, like I think some of the other women. No one would pick it up. It was instinct. And whether she wants to believe it or not, it’s the truth.

 

 

This moment really says a whole lot to me about Carole--even in the face of Aviva's absurd behavior, she took a moment to help the woman out. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by Mozelle

[Pollock]

Thank you very much indeed ! That's a really interesting interview. 

[politichick]

Do you guys remember the controversy that erupted when Natalie Portman won an Oscar for the movie The Black Swan, largely due to the lie that she sacrificed so much for the role and did all the dancing, when in fact her stand-in did almost all of the dance scenes? When the real dancer, the stand-in, told her story, one thing she said really stood out - she said that ballet dancers, esp. at the elite level, start at such a young age and sacrifice so much to get to that level of skill and artistry. So that when someone comes in and not only poses as that elite dancer, but then wins accolades for it, it felt like such a slap in the face to all true dancers, and all the hard work that they represent. I feel like this is what Carole felt like when Aviva talked so casually about writing her memoir. Carole's a writer by trade, and she takes it very seriously. Writing her memoir was a long, arduous, and again, serious endeavor. To see someone come in and treat the whole thing like a long e-mail must have just stuck in her craw.

Well put, LotusFlower. As a person who's a writer by trade, I totally get where Carole was coming from. And where is the rule written that she can't be human and react to an insult just as anybody else would? Aviva, the ultimate not-a-well-wisher, was trying to start something and Carole knew it. That woman definitely has no soul!

[comatoast]

Because it just can't be said enough, judging by the posts, it doesn't seem anyone here thinks Carol was anything but justified in her anger about the rumors Aviva was spreading. However, to me, just because she is justified in her anger doesn't mean she is justified in her actions (the diagnosing). For someone who likes to point out the possible mental instability of her adversary, I think, as the supposedly stable one, she should not have engaged and sunk to the levels Aviva did, instigating continued backlash from Aviva and prolonging the storyline fueled by rumors. She could have just stuck to denying a ghostwriter was used, telling Aviva to look at her copy of the book for proof no ghostwriter was used, even calling her a lying bitch, screaming it if she needed to, but no, that was not enough to make Carol feel better. She had to go where she knows there very well may be an issue. Perhaps she realized this in the last scene when she picked up the leg and simply said it wasn't OK, leaving the diagnosing to the medical professionals...To the stars, no doubt!

 

I like Carol. I certainly like her more than I like Aviva. However, just because I find one a million times more likeable than the other does not mean the more likeable one is immune to criticism when she behaves inappropriately. And if she did indeed know Aviva was trying to start something, her behavior is even more disappointing to me.

Edited August 6, 2014 by comatoast

[TheFinalRose]

ETA:  Speaking of book writing Real Housewives this stuns me:    I guess using a co-write ain't so bad after all.

 

 

Just for clarification in case anyone clicks on the above link Vicki's ebook may have briefly hit the top spot on a genre list on the first few days it was out, which is not that hard to do for someone like her who has Twitter followers but it is not the same thing as hitting number one on Amazon. Amazon has lots of lists within its store broken down by subject matter or category. Currently Vicki's book is ranked #36 in the Kindle store Business & Money > Personal Finance > Retirement Planning (which would have been the list that she hit number one on), but is now only at #76,000 (not #1) on Amazon for an ebook, and at #35,000 (not #1) in hardbacks.  Vicki kind of whooped it up and made it sound bigger than it was/is but I don't ever see any book by Vicki Gunvalson topping the Amazon Bestseller chart, ever. 

 

For contrast The Widow's Guide is currently ranked at #3,616 for ebooks and #5,024 for hardcover on Amazon. Leggy Blonde is at #227,340 for ebooks and #478,000 in hardcover. 

 

So despite Aviva's effort, Carol is clearly winning in book sales, and she has better reviews as well. 

[comatoast]

So despite Aviva's effort, Carol is clearly winning in book sales, and she has better reviews as well. 

Haven't read Leg's book, but the essay she mentioned in the first BookGate scene BLOWS in every direction. Carol is clearly more talented.

[zoeysmom]

Aviva said something about the Kennedys not liking Carole-I ran across this story:http://nypost.com/2013/11/03/rfk-jr-diary-kennedy-family-feuded-before-bodies-were-recovered-in-jfk-jr-crash/

 

An argument ensued and Carole suggested they start an "I Hate Ed Club," referencing Caroline Kennedy's husband who Caroline sent in her place to make arrangements for the bodies.  This came for RFK Jr.'s papers.  Some time later after the suicide of his estranged wife Carole Radziwill needed to weigh in and say that RFK's comments about his deceased wife being plagued by demons was hyperbole.

 

Maybe there is some truth to the assertion that Caroline Kennedy and Carole did not have a close or even tolerable relationship.

[shoegal]

Carole makes no assertions otherwise, she and Caroline were not close and never were close. In fact, Carole and Caroline Kennedy barely had any relationship at all, according to Carole in What Remains.