Charlotte

[Bella]

Be very proper in this thread, otherwise Charlotte will be shocked.

[27bored]

S5 is on OnDemand and I have to say, for the whole "oh I paaaid for that apartment" to chap my ass, how she got it was even more bullshit. First of all, I've already said I think Charlotte was wrong to Trey because of the whole baby thing. You marry the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and that's apart from them giving you a baby. She pushed too hard and made Trey weary of even trying, which was dumb on his part as he was a doctor but thoroughly uninterested in why an otherwise healthy woman couldn't have children. Still, Charlotte, there's a reason why most women who are eager to parent don't wait until their mid-30s to start seriously trying...and it's because it's more difficult for them to get pregnant naturally. So you sort of don't get to be all wounded because it's not happening quick enough. Life is complicated. Deal with it like a big girl.

 

Anyway, the thing that bugged me was how Trey got his mother involved in his and Charlotte's break-up. Trey knew his mom owned their apartment. Charlotte, ditzy as she was, was still a grown ass woman who should've known she had no legal rights to the apartment. I didn't like Bunny and her uncomfortably close relationship with Trey, but y'all are grown. Trey shouldn't have invited himself to stay with his mother without first talking to her, and because he felt guilty about not giving Charlotte a baby he shouldn't have just given her that apartment. She didn't deserve it, IMHO, and it wasn't his to give. There was no case. And his bullshit ass letter sent to the lawyer about Bunny giving Charlotte whatever she wants would've gotten promptly thrown away. Trey was a surgeon and made plenty of money. He could've bought Charlotte an apartment if he wanted, but you're trying to give away your family's apartment.

 

They were just two silly ass adults. Trey was a big Mama's boy and Charlotte was a spoiled princess.

[MaryHedwig]

Trey shouldn't have invited himself to stay with his mother without first talking to her, and because he felt guilty about not giving Charlotte a baby he shouldn't have just given her that apartment. She didn't deserve it, IMHO, and it wasn't his to give.

I agree with you that this story line did not make a lot of sense and was not well-written; however, I always thought that the reason Trey felt Charlotte "deserved" the apartment was because she had to put up with a husband who could not hold up his end in the bedroom.  On the other hand Charlotte did know this before she married him.... 

[andromeda331]

She said that the good news about adopting a Mandarin baby was that since they, Charlotte and Trey, both had dark hair people wouldn't "immediately know she's not ours."  Words cannot express how offensive I find this.

 

 

It was disgusting. If that's the first thing you think of when adopting a child you shouldn't be doing so. But Charlotte's whole behavior with wanting a baby. I agree she acted like a spoiled brat during the entire marriage. She wanted everything on her timeline. Marriage, kid. Life doesn't work for that way. While I have sympathy for trying to get pregnant and tests constantly coming up negative. Sometimes it does take a long time to get pregnant. I've known many who have tried for a couple years before they were finally able to have a baby. There was nothing wrong with them it just took time. But Charlotte wanted it done on her schedule. 

[andromeda331]

I do like Charlotte even though I hated the way she behaved a lot of times especially during her marriage to Trey or her dumping men for their taste it dishes and flowers. That just seem so shallow. But I loved her wardrobe most of the time, she was very optimistic and how naive she could be at time. I liked that she was willing to change part of herself to marry the man she loved. I liked her and Harry together. I liked that she remained Jewish even after they broke up. The look on her face when she was trying to let Harry be himself when he was walking around and sitting around naked.

[Maharincess]

Charlotte was my least favorite. I thought she was a spoiled brat a lot of the times.

I started disliking her when she and Trey were picking out their china. She picked out a china pattern she wanted, he saw the price and said if he bought that, it was so expensive that they would have to eat ramen noodles if they bought it.

She stood there and stuck her bottom lip out and pouted until she got her way.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Maharincess

[Stella MD]

Charlotte bugged me too, and I always found it a very artificial construct for the show that she had the other girls as her best friends, instead of a bunch of equally marriage-hungry, pearl-clutching judgy clones. Girls like Charlotte always self-assemble into annoying packs.

[Bella]

Charlotte bugged me too, and I always found it a very artificial construct for the show that she had the other girls as her best friends, instead of a bunch of equally marriage-hungry, pearl-clutching judgy clones. Girls like Charlotte always self-assemble into annoying packs.

 

This. I didn't actively dislike her, but I thought she was least like the other three and was surprised she didn't have a bunch of friends more like herself.

 

Of course, this is fiction, and quite possibly the writers envisioned vastly more complicated social lives for the four women than what they were able to show us in a series that focused strictly on this quartet. However, from what we saw, I'd have to think she was closest to being the odd one out in this group and most likely to have a separate, parallel group that she hung with more often than she did with Carrie et al.

[Inquisitionist]

We did see Charlotte have lunch once with her now-married sorority sister types.  I think what distinguished Charlotte was that she was much more open about wanting a good sex life than those friends were.  But, yeah, as originally conceived, the four women were "types" that didn't seem to fit naturally as friends, other than their connection to Carrie.  (Do we know how Charlotte came into Carrie's orbit?)

[ktwo]

I started disliking her when she and Trey were picking out their china. She picked out a china pattern she wanted, he saw the price and said if he bought that, it was so expensive that they would have to eat ramen noodles they would have to eat.

I remember thinking that this particular scenario was seriously unrealistic, as they were registering for the china and having a giant wedding full of rich people who would buy it all for them. But I see the larger point about Charlotte. I have a soft spot for her since she is so like my oldest and best friend - I get Miranda in all the quizzes. But Charlotte's clothes were to die for to me. I can't remember anything she wore that wasn't the perfect thing except for those horrible pants she wore to acupuncture.

[Maherjunkie]

The woman had Grade A hair, if nothing else.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Kristin Davis is exceptionally beautiful to me.  Her face is seriously so stunning.  Sometimes the angles kind of make me gasp.

 

If one wants to see The Value of Charlotte look no further than Miranda's mom dying episode (already mentioned upthread).  The character writing and Kristin's acting as Charlotte is just fantastic.  She completely takes charge, keeps all emotions perfectly in check, helps everyone through it while everyone else falls apart (not that I blame any of their reactions).  Such a great character episode for Charlotte.

[JAYJAY1979]

Of all the characters, I truly think Charlotte evolves the most throughout the series.  She had high standards of the perfect marriage and by lowering them to realistic levels..she ended up with a great guy and two daughters.  I truly think the Charlotte of season 1 wouldn't have even given Harry a glance.

 

When Charlotte said she couldn't find a job at a gallery after divorcing Trey, I wondered at the time why she couldn't open one herself.  Then I figured it was difficult to do so and then I wonder why she didnt partner into an already open gallery.  She could have been a silent partner and accomplished her dream of owning a gallery.  

[Melancholy]

I agree that Charlotte *evolves* the most. Miranda *changed* the most and some of it was good (being a good mother, her relationship with Magda) but some of it was being a doormat to unworthy Steve.  It's a shame that Charlotte didn't get her career back but she ended up with an amazing life married to an amazing guy, with the opportunity to raise a child of her own and give an unwanted child a beautiful home and family. 

[BBHN]

Quote

 I truly think the Charlotte of season 1 wouldn't have even given Harry a glance.

She did hook up that one time with that Hasidic Jewish guy though, so who knows...

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

On 9/23/2017 at 8:25 AM, BBHN said:

She did hook up that one time with that Hasidic Jewish guy though, so who knows...

A hook-up she was embarrassed about, and specifically asked Carrie not to put in the column. Fucking someone in secret is a far cry from dating, falling in love with, marrying, and having a family with someone. 

[BBHN]

But the fact that she even admitted it to Carrie says something. She probably would have done the same thing with Harry; met him in secret initially, fallen in love with him, and then had to decide whether or not to continue the relationship by going public with it.

Granted, this was season 1 Charlotte, who was less of an uptight prude than the one we got season 2 and onwards. It's possible season 2 Charlotte would have never hooked up with the Hasidic guy to begin with...

[Qoass]

I think having all of her friends heartily endorse Harry at that wedding helped her get over her reservations about him. She expressed her doubts and her pals talked her through them.

[Melancholy]

38 minutes ago, Qoass said:

I think having all of her friends heartily endorse Harry at that wedding helped her get over her reservations about him. She expressed her doubts and her pals talked her through them.

I agree. I also think Charlotte internally grew and evolved so that she took Harry as her date to a public Hamptons wedding to say nothing of converting to Judaism (over her friends' shock) and saying Harry that she'd be happy to go out with him even if he didn't propose. I do think Charlotte always deeply wanted a warm, close family and a great, passionate love with her husband. However, she childishly and naively thought that part should just automatically happen and click into place if she picks a guy with the right superficial credentials who can "set the scene" of this family that she dreamt of. Like, she thought Trey would be great in bed because he was handsome. Charlotte had to learn the hard way that the deeper stuff doesn't just fall into place just because you checked off the superficial issues. You have to be open for that passionate love, even in strange places. Charlotte learned to understand how important it was that she had the best sex of her life with Harry and that she had such a good time with him because she had years of not finding what she more deeply craved amongst the WASP-y, stereotypically handsome guys that she chased after. 

[Dandesun]

I loved Charlotte and Harry. Start to finish. Charlotte had gone through a lot in previous seasons to really shatter those preconceived notions of the life she envisioned for herself.  She wound up with the substance of that life rather than the aesthetic she thought was so important. I mean, she went with Harry as her divorce lawyer because his partner was too handsome that she couldn't be cutthroat about her wants in the split. But in that situation, she was allowed to be herself which made a huge difference. I loved the scene where Harry was showing her his client's apartment because she was so natural, she wasn't putting on a show for the 'desirable man' but Harry liked and wanted her anyway and I always thought that resulted in the sex being so good.

Harry was a great guy. He absolutely adored her, he supported her and even encouraged her to keep the Christmas ornaments and traditions that she wanted when she was converting but he also stood up for himself when she lost it on him at the dinner she made. When she was the one that said the words about being 'better' because she was more attractive... he left and he was right to do that. Charlotte went through her long, dark tea-time of the soul and came out of it recognizing that she loved Harry for Harry. The scene with her at the singles mixers when she overheard the woman saying 'there's no one left but the baldies and the fatties' (or whatever the line actually was) -- you could just see how Charlotte wanted so much to see her 'baldy' and it had nothing to do with looks and everything to do with how much she loved him. Her apology to him was beautiful and sincere and he saw that and loved her. I just adored them.

I never watched the second movie (I don't regret it either) but I always remember Charlotte admitting that she was happy every day when Miranda was talking about her own problems. And she acknowledged that it wasn't like she got out of bed dancing and singing every morning but that she was truly happy every day in a lot of quieter ways. Charlotte found her happily ever after which was so much better than finding her 'Prince Charming.'

[CleoCaesar]

I didn't dislike Harry or Harry/Charlotte, but to me it felt like another version of what bugged me about Miranda/Steve: the woman always compromises. And compromises again. And again. And the guy...doesn't. And we're supposed to think "Yup, this is growth", when really it was just a one-sided relationship.

Miranda compromised on the dog, the different sleep schedules, living in Brooklyn (WHY I will never know, because a partner in a white-shoe law firm in Manhattan is one of the few demographics that actually could afford a place in Manhattan), caring for her mother-in-law, and so on. When did Steve have to give up ANYTHING?

Same thing with Harry and Charlotte. Her having to convert in order to marry Harry was the final straw. Charlotte and Miranda have to compromise on essentially everything. Steve and Harry never have to, and are rewarded with the "improved" women. If some guy says he won't marry me because I'm not his religion, that guy will be promptly shown the door. Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the SATC women.

[Sun-Bun]

1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

If some guy says he won't marry me because I'm not his religion, that guy will be promptly shown the door. Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the SATC women.

Nahhhh, you're just not as *desperate* as the SATC women...except for Samantha, they all have had to compromise, I'm sorry, "grow" in some way to keep their men.

I like that at the end of the day, even if she found a good mate in Smith, Sam eventually realized she simply preferred overall being single and free.

[Melancholy]

4 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I didn't dislike Harry or Harry/Charlotte, but to me it felt like another version of what bugged me about Miranda/Steve: the woman always compromises. And compromises again. And again. And the guy...doesn't. And we're supposed to think "Yup, this is growth", when really it was just a one-sided relationship.

Miranda compromised on the dog, the different sleep schedules, living in Brooklyn (WHY I will never know, because a partner in a white-shoe law firm in Manhattan is one of the few demographics that actually could afford a place in Manhattan), caring for her mother-in-law, and so on. When did Steve have to give up ANYTHING?

Same thing with Harry and Charlotte. Her having to convert in order to marry Harry was the final straw. Charlotte and Miranda have to compromise on essentially everything. Steve and Harry never have to, and are rewarded with the "improved" women. If some guy says he won't marry me because I'm not his religion, that guy will be promptly shown the door. Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the SATC women.

See, I saw that in Miranda/Steve but not Charlotte/Harry. Harry compromised too. He worked on his presentation and manners, such as getting his back waxed (and didn't even kvetch about the horrible allergic reaction) and wearing clothes around the house. He posed for the NYT marriage announcement and had the big wedding that Charlotte wanted. He accepted Charlotte's biological challenges, even though he wanted his own bio kids. He supported Charlotte in the dog shows and managing the dogs, even though it plainly wasn't his interest at all. Charlotte did compromise- but ultimately, in areas that were easy/pleasant to do. Yes, she downgraded her looks/deportment standard for Harry but she *was* turned on by him at the end of the day.

Maybe it's because I'm Jewish but I totally understand and support Harry drawing the line at marrying a Jew. I don't have that rule for myself but I do draw the line at raising my kids Jewish- and I partly feel comfortable being open to a non-Jewish spouse because I'm a woman and Judaism is passed down matrilineally. Really, most Jews have ancestors who were murdered/raped/expelled/tortured/oppressed for their religion and there's immense guilt to throwing those familial sacrifices away and making our People an even smaller minority by not having Jewish kids. If I don't raise my kids as Jews, I'm rolling the dice that the next generation of Jews become smaller in numbers and thus, even more vulnerable to the brutal anti-Semitism which is always with people. Harry said that he had family that died in the Holocaust. Charlotte *was* free to show Harry the door. Harry told her his limit (which he's completely entitled to have) just after their relationship became dating instead of just sex. Harry told her this, precisely to warn her that their relationship can't go forward to marriage so Charlotte should feel free to end it without any hard feelings. Harry never demanded that Charlotte convert. That was Charlotte's idea. Harry didn't even mention "convert". Probably Charlotte values her religion less than you do because she picked exploring becoming a Jew over adhering to Christianity. And that's what it was at first- Charlotte went through a rigorous conversion process where she learned about the tenants and rules of Judaism and learned about Ashkenazi culture. She made a very informed and educated choice to complete her conversion courses through the end. Jewish conversion courses are specifically designed that way- they're rigorous and straight-forward enough that people should know exactly what religion they're joining before they become Jewish. Charlotte took to Judaism on her own, IMO more than Episcopalianism. She enjoyed learning "the history and the traditions and the culture, OY". She got into the food. Even after she and Harry separated, she continued going to synagogue. She organically felt the Jews' history of oppression as a way to put her own lucky life in perspective. She enjoyed Yiddish coloring her language. Basically, she came to enjoy being culturally Jewish, especially, like many American Jews including Harry and myself. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Melancholy

[CleoCaesar]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

See, I saw that in Miranda/Steve but not Charlotte/Harry. Harry compromised too. He worked on his presentation and manners, such as getting his back waxed (and didn't even kvetch about the horrible allergic reaction) and wearing clothes around the house. He posed for the NYT marriage announcement and had the big wedding that Charlotte wanted. He accepted Charlotte's biological challenges, even though he wanted his own bio kids. He supported Charlotte in the dog shows and managing the dogs, even though it plainly wasn't his interest at all. Charlotte did compromise- but ultimately, in areas that were easy/pleasant to do. Yes, she downgraded her looks/deportment standard for Harry but she *was* turned on by him at the end of the day.

That is a good point. Harry did make adjustments. I think Charlotte converting is bigger than any sacrifice he made, but I can acknowledge that it wasn't as one-sided as Miranda/Steve.

True, Harry didn't force her or even raise the issue of converting.

[andromeda331]

I loved Harry and Charlotte for all the reasons listed. I loved that Charlotte was willing to change to be with Harry. This was a girl who broke up with a man over china pattern. The only part I don't like is Harry flipping out at the dinner. Because it was the very first one. Charlotte was trying so hard to get it right. She had worked so hard and here she was at the very her first Shabbat dinner and Harry's watching TV. Now had it been the fifth or tenth I'd understand Harry's reaction. But this was the first time. But I did like after the break up Charlotte didn't convert back.

[Melancholy]

I agree that Harry was an ass about Shabbat dinner. Charlotte wasn't the only one who behaved terribly at that dinner. I like to think that Harry knew that and that was part of why he not only took Charlotte back, but proposed to her. It's not like she badgered him into proposing by insulting his looks unprovoked and out of the blue. She was speaking out of deserved anger. But other than the Shabbat dinner, he was wonderful. I loved his sense of humor- he was very funny but the jokes authentically sprang up from him compared to Big or Berger who were performing. 

I'm generally a Charlotte fan. I like Charlotte, Miranda, and Samantha a lot but I think Charlotte is my favorite. She's very pleasant to watch between her amazing clothes and charming disposition and adorable sense of humor. She makes her big mistakes, but I think she generally does the best at being sweet and considerate in relationships but also holding fast to her important principles and feelings when guys are trampling on them. In her quiet sweet way, she stands up to Carrie the most and in the most impactful way. And IMO, she affirmatively reaches out to Samantha and especially Miranda more than Miranda/Samantha reach out to the non-Carrie friends. The gallery was also a great job-destination- the stories that came out from it like the Power Lesbians or the Vagina Paintings were great and a rare slice of the cultured side of NYC. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Melancholy

[ivygirl]

Of all the TV show's storylines, Charlotte and Harry's seemed the most kind and genuine, and there are two moments that always get to me: the one at the mixer, and the one where she's a bit blue over giving up the Christmas ornaments, and he's so sympathetic towards her (I'm tearing up thinking about it. Good grief!). 

And that's where I feel that her compromises were different from Miranda's. Harry appreciated Charlotte, and he never forced her to give up anything. She did it of her own volition, in a way that seems normal for just about any relationship. They were substantive changes, but she pursued them. Whereas to me, with Steve, Miranda had to change because Steve wouldn't, or she'd have to pick up the slack (e.g. with the dog, or with Brady, or the apartment) because Steve didn't want to change his own ways, even in little things. 

[DrivingSideways]

On 10/12/2017 at 2:08 PM, CleoCaesar said:

I didn't dislike Harry or Harry/Charlotte, but to me it felt like another version of what bugged me about Miranda/Steve: the woman always compromises. And compromises again. And again. And the guy...doesn't. And we're supposed to think "Yup, this is growth", when really it was just a one-sided relationship.

Miranda compromised on the dog, the different sleep schedules, living in Brooklyn (WHY I will never know, because a partner in a white-shoe law firm in Manhattan is one of the few demographics that actually could afford a place in Manhattan), caring for her mother-in-law, and so on. When did Steve have to give up ANYTHING?

Same thing with Harry and Charlotte. Her having to convert in order to marry Harry was the final straw. Charlotte and Miranda have to compromise on essentially everything. Steve and Harry never have to, and are rewarded with the "improved" women. If some guy says he won't marry me because I'm not his religion, that guy will be promptly shown the door. Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the SATC women.

I think Miranda should have gone with Blair Underwood in the end, but I'd argue that Steve had to give up sex and romance with Miranda.  She was always resisting his desire to be more fully engaged in their relationship, to unplug from work, and she wasn't connected enough or caring enough of him to break him off a piece.  Steve is one of the few cheating situations I can think of where most people I know (and Miranda's friends on the show) said, "Yeah I get why he cheated... I'd forgive him."

Charlotte is a favorite of mine, but she's extremely shallow.  To me, she always seemed to just fall for the latest rich guy that fell in front of her.  She tried to make the fairy tale with Trey work until it just wouldn't anymore.  She chose to give up her career to focus on being a housewife.  Then her next stop was in the divorce attorney's office where she met Harry.  Her love meter was directly connected to her man's status and wallet.  So I would argue that anything Charlotte gave up, it was completely willingly in her quest to find the perfect rich man.  If you a net worth of less than $1M, you had zero chance with Charlotte.  And that is kind of depressing.  The other girls all were able to handle a relationship with a man where there was a gulf between income levels.

[Melancholy]

On 12/23/2017 at 10:47 AM, DrivingSideways said:

I think Miranda should have gone with Blair Underwood in the end, but I'd argue that Steve had to give up sex and romance with Miranda.  She was always resisting his desire to be more fully engaged in their relationship, to unplug from work, and she wasn't connected enough or caring enough of him to break him off a piece.  Steve is one of the few cheating situations I can think of where most people I know (and Miranda's friends on the show) said, "Yeah I get why he cheated... I'd forgive him."

Charlotte is a favorite of mine, but she's extremely shallow.  To me, she always seemed to just fall for the latest rich guy that fell in front of her.  She tried to make the fairy tale with Trey work until it just wouldn't anymore.  She chose to give up her career to focus on being a housewife.  Then her next stop was in the divorce attorney's office where she met Harry.  Her love meter was directly connected to her man's status and wallet.  So I would argue that anything Charlotte gave up, it was completely willingly in her quest to find the perfect rich man.  If you a net worth of less than $1M, you had zero chance with Charlotte.  And that is kind of depressing.  The other girls all were able to handle a relationship with a man where there was a gulf between income levels.

Well, I agree that Charlotte wanted to marry a rich man. She could dally with the metro pastry chef or the unemployed actor who fixed stuff in her apartment but she was always on the hunt for a rich husband. However when push comes to shove, I think the same of Carrie. Carrie was not as nearly honest about it or thoughtful to bake it into a worldview. So, Carrie would get engaged to middle class Aiden but IMO mostly not commit to actual marriage because she resented being boxed into a middle class life for the rest of her life when she really wanted to marry a flashy multi millionaire. Charlotte also wanted to marry well and she wanted to be a housewife but she did insist on other dimensions to her ideal marriage. Children, volunteer work, her friends, her husband confiding in her and treating her like an equal. She never would have left everything to go to Paris just to be kept by a man who wasn’t even opening up her in NY. 

Miranda did pick Steve, who was lower class in demeanor and cash when he was a bartender and likely middle class once he had his own bar. I do think Miranda always thought Steve was inferior. But I don’t think it was a money issue. It was an educated professional v. non-educated service person issue. IMO, Miranda and Samantha felt very comfortable and then some with their own income unlike Carrie and Charlotte who wanted to live on a much higher level than their own income. Samantha took an interest in raising her standard of living to Richard’s level with the jet and the Hamptons house but she never cared about it that much to trade independence and integrity and confidence in herself. Miranda was never even really tested with moving up in life from romance with a rich man but IMO, she would actually be uncomfortable from living off someone else’s work. As always, Blair Underwood was her best match. She respected him as another educated professional doing important but also cool work. They both made enough money to combine it to find a big enough Manhattan apartment without settling for Brooklyn but it was on par so Miranda wouldn’t be living off Robert and surrendering that control. 

[andromeda331]

51 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Well, I agree that Charlotte wanted to marry a rich man. She could dally with the metro pastry chef or the unemployed actor who fixed stuff in her apartment but she was always on the hunt for a rich husband. However when push comes to shove, I think the same of Carrie. Carrie was not as nearly honest about it or thoughtful to bake it into a worldview. So, Carrie would get engaged to middle class Aiden but IMO mostly not commit to actual marriage because she resented being boxed into a middle class life for the rest of her life when she really wanted to marry a flashy multi millionaire. Charlotte also wanted to marry well and she wanted to be a housewife but she did insist on other dimensions to her ideal marriage. Children, volunteer work, her friends, her husband confiding in her and treating her like an equal. She never would have left everything to go to Paris just to be kept by a man who wasn’t even opening up her in NY. 

I agree. Until Harry, Charlotte didn't really care who the man she married just that he was rich. She wanted the WASP lifestyle marriage and kids. The husband didn't matter. Just is breeding. If you look at Trey. Charlotte never really took the time to get to know him. He was just the man with the right background and so she rushed into marrying him. So much could have been avoided if Charlotte waited and really got to know Trey. But the one thing I did like about the show was how all the characters except Carrie at some point got challenged about what they wanted. Charlotte thought she wanted the rich husband with the right breeding, until she got it. Then Charlotte met Harry, she was willing to change herself for him which is amazing and a big character growth from a girl who broke up with a man when he picked the wrong China pattern. Miranda thought she wanted a certain person too. Steve wasn't that person. He was different from what she thought she wanted. She dated other men Blair Underwood would have been a perfect match for her. But she wanted Steve. Samantha who always declared she didn't want to be in a relationship had that challenged twice with Richard and Smith. The first one clearly didn't work out. The second one was interesting because Smith was a really great guy who loved her. But in the end Samantha realized she really didn't want to be in a relationship. Carrie, of course was never challenged in any of her relationships, learned from them or grew at all. She still wanders through life believing she never did anything wrong in any of her relationships and she totally deserves to live rich with a man who will do what ever she wants and she never has to compromise or give up anything.   

[Melancholy]

8 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. Until Harry, Charlotte didn't really care who the man she married just that he was rich. She wanted the WASP lifestyle marriage and kids. The husband didn't matter. Just is breeding. If you look at Trey. Charlotte never really took the time to get to know him. He was just the man with the right background and so she rushed into marrying him. So much could have been avoided if Charlotte waited and really got to know Trey. But the one thing I did like about the show was how all the characters except Carrie at some point got challenged about what they wanted. Charlotte thought she wanted the rich husband with the right breeding, until she got it. Then Charlotte met Harry, she was willing to change herself for him which is amazing and a big character growth from a girl who broke up with a man when he picked the wrong China pattern. Miranda thought she wanted a certain person too. Steve wasn't that person. He was different from what she thought she wanted. She dated other men Blair Underwood would have been a perfect match for her. But she wanted Steve. Samantha who always declared she didn't want to be in a relationship had that challenged twice with Richard and Smith. The first one clearly didn't work out. The second one was interesting because Smith was a really great guy who loved her. But in the end Samantha realized she really didn't want to be in a relationship. Carrie, of course was never challenged in any of her relationships, learned from them or grew at all. She still wanders through life believing she never did anything wrong in any of her relationships and she totally deserves to live rich with a man who will do what ever she wants and she never has to compromise or give up anything.   

I mostly agree except I do think early Charlotte truly cared about the personality of her mates. They couldn’t just be rich and well bred. She also wanted kindness, intelligence, a pleasant personalit, a connection. She broke up with well bred guys for getting into fights with others for the most trivial slight or pressuring her into blow jobs, etc. I think Charlotte was truly in love with Trey and noted his virtues. Chivalry (their first dramatic meeting), kindness, intelligence, handsome. In the earliest seasons, Charlotte was also making dating determinations of sexual compatibility but she got into a re-virginization bizarre mode with Trey. 

However, I do agree that Charlotte was trying to pick a certain WASP type because she thought that was the route to happiness. She had to genuinely like the rich WASP...but they had to be a rich WASP and that status applied rose colored glasses to Charlotte. She grew out of that with Trey and getting with Harry. 

[CleoCaesar]

23 hours ago, Melancholy said:

She had to genuinely like the rich WASP...but they had to be a rich WASP and that status applied rose colored glasses to Charlotte. She grew out of that with Trey and getting with Harry. 

She may have outgrown it to an extent, but she still chose someone close to the type of guy she had initially wanted. Harry was a rich, successful attorney who was part of the Hamptons crowd. True, he may have been bald and wear loud tiki shirts to the pool, but he was still very much of that world. If Harry had been a plumber, Charlotte (even season 5-6 Charlotte) wouldn't have looked at him twice.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I think my favourite Charlotte moment, or at least one of them, is when Miranda announces to the table of women that she "hate(s) all that shit, that's why I proposed to Steve over 3 dollar beers."  Everyone has a stunned, hilarious reaction:  Sam says "You proposed..... marriage?"  And Carrie says "Oh, my god" and Charlotte says in a voice that is almost crying, "Oh Miranda!"  She's just so touched by the romance and her voice breaks and the emotion is just so naked.  I love it.

This more fits in with "The men of SATC" but Harry is my favourite out of all the long-term male partners on the show.  He just seems so perfect.  As a man and as a partner.  The looks, whatever, but he's such a good guy to Charlotte, I think, and she just seems so happy with him.  Really fulfilled.  

[Gothish520]

On 1/8/2018 at 4:44 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think my favourite Charlotte moment, or at least one of them, is when Miranda announces to the table of women that she "hate(s) all that shit, that's why I proposed to Steve over 3 dollar beers."  Everyone has a stunned, hilarious reaction:  Sam says "You proposed..... marriage?"  And Carrie says "Oh, my god" and Charlotte says in a voice that is almost crying, "Oh Miranda!"  She's just so touched by the romance and her voice breaks and the emotion is just so naked.  I love it.

This more fits in with "The men of SATC" but Harry is my favourite out of all the long-term male partners on the show.  He just seems so perfect.  As a man and as a partner.  The looks, whatever, but he's such a good guy to Charlotte, I think, and she just seems so happy with him.  Really fulfilled.  

I get that some people might not consider Harry conventionally handsome, but I find him wildly attractive. His looks aren't even an issue - he's adorable.

[Sun-Bun]

6 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

His looks aren't even an issue - he's adorable.

Or as they say, "He's a-dork-able!" 

And I so agree---he's my favorite of all the husbands because he just seems so darned sweet and lovable and treats Char like a goddess. Plus, it helps that he's a successful lawyer just to balance out the rest of his shluby charms. Charlotte did *really* well to snag him.

[Melancholy]

Quote

”You get behind your choice!”

Wrong thread for me to comment on this, but Charlotte stomping around shrieking "I choose my choice" made me want to smack her.

Quoting from @ByTor in the Carrie thread. There’s some disconnect in the Charlotte story here. This ep kind of foreshadows that Charlotte is making a bad choice in quitting her job. She’s certainly annoying badgering Miranda into celebrating her decision but I feel for her as someone whose actually deep down scared and embarrassed about making her life about depending on Trey and trying to get external validation to soothe those feelings. 

I think the show eventually *indicates* it was a bad choice. Certainly to quit so soon before she even recieved her first child like 3 years later. Charlotte never ended up throwing herself into AIDS fundraising. She didn’t get pregnant in short order by any means. She lost Trey. The fact that she tried getting hired as a gallery owner and had to settle for some docent volunteering is a type of failure IMO. 

However, it’s just an indication that it was a bad choice, especially when Charlotte didn’t have Harry to fill up her life and work towards something. There’s nothing wrong with tap dancing classes or self help books or volunteering to help the blind or being a docent but taken together, it all added up to Charlotte being lost and losing the discipline to commit to one thing so she just took up hobbies for an episode at a time. I liked the Jewish conversion story because of the representation for my people but it was also agreeable to Charlotte’s story to give her something that she was working towards for like half a season after fluttering aimlessly. 

The disconnect is that Charlottes choice was wrong but it was never as dire as you’d think if a woman quit her job to rely on a man but then that marriage blew up months later. Or even as socially dire as being the one unemployed woman among three other women with big careers in their own way. She’s bailed out by her settlement and IMO family money making her unrealistically comfortable. And how this show remains mainly about romance and sex and friendship instead of a complete picture of these women’s lives so you don’t get to see how many hours Charlotte was likely pacing around her apartment or watching bad daytime TV. So, IMO Charlotte was proven wrong to quit but not as seriously as the foreshadowing in Time and Punishment. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Melancholy

[Gothish520]

Halfway through season 6 (which I'm loving), and Charlotte and Harry's romance is just so darn cute. I'm already on record stating how adorable I think Harry is, and I loved the conversion storyline. I like Charlotte more as character now as well. Harry was the perfect balance that she needed - someone down to earth and unpretentious. Loved the scene when she dusted herself off and made it to Brady's birthday party. 

Speaking of which, taking my thoughts on Miranda and Steve over to her thread.

[ByTor]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:38 AM, Melancholy said:

She’s certainly annoying badgering Miranda into celebrating her decision but I feel for her as someone whose actually deep down scared and embarrassed about making her life about depending on Trey and trying to get external validation to soothe those feelings. 

I understand that, but a grown woman throwing a Brady-level tantrum made me roll my eyes pretty hard, regardless of what the tantrum was about.  Of course, Charlotte was by far my least favorite character, because so many of her character traits are traits I can't stand in real life.

Edited April 9, 2018 by ByTor

[Melancholy]

I hold the unpopular opinion that Charlotte is my favorite character. I think this may also be shaped by how I saw the later seasons first. As @Gothish520 said, Charlotte/Harry does a LOT for her likability.  It really clarifies that she’s genuinely looking for true love and family as opposed to mouthing that but actually wanting a Ken doll and an excuse to be taken care of in perpetuity. Charlotte and Carrie are similar but I see Charlotte as the better version. They both want to be nurtured and taken care of by men- but Charlotte can nurture her friends, dogs, children while Carrie can’t nurture at all. They both try to exemplify girlish femininity in their style- but Charlotte has a better look and nicer clothes and a classier way of carrying herself. They’re both looking for a retro over the top fairytale romance with firmly assigned gender roles and norms. Charlotte is just the one who’ll actually try defending it at the brunch table. 

[Mu Shu]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:15 PM, ByTor said:

I understand that, but a grown woman throwing a Brady-level tantrum made me roll my eyes pretty hard, regardless of what the tantrum was about.  Of course, Charlotte was by far my least favorite character, because so many of her character traits are traits I can't stand in real life.

I pretty much can’t stand Charlotte.  Of the four, she’s the biggest caricature to me, more so even than Sam.  She could have been interesting, but Kristen Davis is not good at nuance, IMO.  It was boring watching her storyline stagnate.  Can’t have kids?  Welcome to the club.  If that’s the biggest struggle in your priveliged life, I don’t need to know about it.  Had to settle for a bald, sweaty guy?  That’s a choice.  She had the wherewithal to get a more traditionally attractive guy.  She was too much of a narrow minded tight ass to settle for a “lower class” guy.  

I found her as shallow as Carrie and Sam, but without the charisma.  

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

I pretty much can’t stand Charlotte.  Of the four, she’s the biggest caricature to me, more so even than Sam.  She could have been interesting, but Kristen Davis is not good at nuance, IMO.  It was boring watching her storyline stagnate.  Can’t have kids?  Welcome to the club.  If that’s the biggest struggle in your priveliged life, I don’t need to know about it.  Had to settle for a bald, sweaty guy?  That’s a choice.  She had the wherewithal to get a more traditionally attractive guy.  She was too much of a narrow minded tight ass to settle for a “lower class” guy.  

I found her as shallow as Carrie and Sam, but without the charisma.  

Meanwhile, Charlotte is my favorite. It's fascinating that she gets hate for her infertility story. You're not the only poster to say that infertility is a non-problem. I couldn't disagree more. I actually love the infertility story. The act of reproducing is one of the most fundamental parts of living and the act of reproducing and then, raising children is one of the most fundamental parts of being a human being. Modern human society has evolved to the point that individuals can reject this imperative to give birth to and raise the next generation. Fine. However, a lot of us crave the experience of having and raising children more than anything else in life. Parents say it's the most fulfilling, meaningful thing that they'll ever do. I don't have kids and I'm not set-up in life enough to try for them, but I desperately want them and always imagined that I'll love them and enjoy raising them more than anything. Yes, Charlotte had an otherwise charmed life. However, being unable to have kids when you desperately want them is recognized by me as incredible, serious, soul-crushing pain and worth a story. Charlotte's inability to fulfill her biological and emotional destiny to be a mother to any kids because her bio-limitations and her in-law's racism against adoption is true, gravitas laden pain that I only have empathy for. 

Also, Charlotte genuinely loved Harry and she was attracted to him to the point that he was the best sex of her life. I don't think she was ever settling for him, especially by the time she apologized for her tantrum and said she'd be lucky if he asked her out at the synagogue mixer. Even in Charlotte's hideous awful tantrum of "Do you know what people think when they see us?!", I don't think Charlotte really felt hard-done by the fact she had to settle for a bald sweaty guy. Charlotte was pretty damn attracted to the bald, sweaty guy and loved sex with him. Charlotte was using that as a stick to force a marriage proposal from him. Which was awful. However, I never got the vibe that Charlotte was a gold-digger who married the ugly guy because she couldn't get another conventionally attractive rich guy. First, Charlotte wasn't single for very long between Trey and Harry but she seemed more than capable of dating the same handsome, rich guys and landing one of them. Second, Charlotte seemed quite wealthy in her own right after the divorce settlement. Charlotte ended up with Harry so soon after the divorce because she is one of those women who needs marriage/long-term relationship to feel whole but mostly because she genuinely fell in love with Harry. 

IMO, Miranda and Carrie both settle in far baser ways than Charlotte. IMO, Miranda never really respected Steve or though he was the best she could do. However, Miranda settled for the guy that she truly knew and built up long-term affection for and was father to her child. Miranda could have gotten more of an intelligent, sophisticated, capable gentleman (which IMO, she really craves). Robert was right there. But Miranda didn't want to do the emotional work of trying to open her heart to someone else. That's why in the movies, Charlotte is very happy in her marriage with Harry and has sex three times a week while Miranda needed her arm twisted to have sex more than once in six months with Steve. Charlotte found her ONE while Miranda settled. 

And Charlotte may have only wanted to marry a wealthy man. However, Charlotte accepted Trey's and Harry's engagements because she was truly in love with them. It wasn't like Carrie accepting Aiden's proposal even though she didn't want to marry him and IMO didn't really love him because she needed to be in a relationship, not least of which because her building was going co-opt and she needed him to buy the apartment. It wasn't even like Carrie throwing away her job and leaving her friends to follow Alex to France even though they didn't even exchange "love yous" and even though she didn't love him because he was a rich man willing to take care of her in grand international style. 

Its disappointing that Charlotte didn’t go back to work but in the show’s point of searching for love, Charlotte did the best. She got the best husband. Some of that is luck but I think some of it is Charlotte’s good traits. She was looking for the mutual respect and kindness and tenderness and openness of the most romantic stories. So, she got a warm, kind partner who she could truly respect.

Like Carrie loved Big but she didn’t like him at all. However, love for Carrie was about lifestyle coolness and sexual compatibility even with a man that she’d call a “bad guy.” It wasn’t about respect or mutual kindness. So, I think Charlotte had a much deeper, sincere conception of true love than Carrie. Meanwhile Miranda and Samantha wanted love based on kindness and mutual respect but they didn’t have Charlotte’s tenderness and openness that would make them go out and consciously search for it or even be as open to giving and receiving love when the right guy is right in front of them. 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Melancholy

[Mu Shu]

Saying you aren’t interested in a infertility storyline is not “hate”.   It simply means you aren’t interested in seeing an extremely privileged, shallow woman portray it.  

[Maherjunkie]

Why does it matter if they are privliged and shallow?

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, Mu Shu said:

Saying you aren’t interested in a infertility storyline is not “hate”.   It simply means you aren’t interested in seeing an extremely privileged, shallow woman portray it.  

“I can’t stand Charlotte” with one of the main reasons being the infertility storyline indicated hate to me. I think that was a reasonable call on my part. 

[Banshee]

On 7/9/2014 at 10:23 PM, MaryHedwig said:

I agree with you that this story line did not make a lot of sense and was not well-written; however, I always thought that the reason Trey felt Charlotte "deserved" the apartment was because she had to put up with a husband who could not hold up his end in the bedroom.  On the other hand Charlotte did know this before she married him.... 

I thought they waited for the wedding night because idiot Charlotte thought it would be more romantic.

[MaryHedwig]

7 minutes ago, Banshee said:

I thought they waited for the wedding night because idiot Charlotte thought it would be more romantic.

My memory is that Charlotte figured it out beforehand. In fact, I remember her saying to Carrie "he can't get it up" right at the wedding in her wedding gown.

Anyone else out there have a memory of this?

[Banshee]

3 minutes ago, MaryHedwig said:

My memory is that Charlotte figured it out beforehand. In fact, I remember her saying to Carrie "he can't get it up" right at the wedding in her wedding gown.

Anyone else out there have a memory of this?

I think you're right. Shortly before the wedding Charlotte tells the girls that she and Trey hasn't slept together yet and they gave her the "don't do that" look. So yeah, I remember before the wedding Charlotte was upset that Trey "couldn't get it up." Sorry! ?

[JAYJAY1979]

I think the infertility story can be a relateable story to anyone that has struggled with conceiving.  I do think the saddest scene is when Miranda tells Charlotte that she's pregnant and it hit home to me the irony of life sometimes.  You have one person wanting to be a parent (Charlotte) most likely not being able to be one the old fashion way, and then you have her friend (Miranda) that has never had a huge desire to be a parent become pregnant without even trying.  It's one of the few scenes with two of the women without Carrie having to be there.

And I don't get why  extremely privileged, shallow women can't be shown having trouble conceiving? 

Edited May 29, 2018 by JAYJAY1979

[Gothish520]

19 hours ago, Melancholy said:

IMO, Miranda and Carrie both settle in far baser ways than Charlotte. IMO, Miranda never really respected Steve or though he was the best she could do. However, Miranda settled for the guy that she truly knew and built up long-term affection for and was father to her child. Miranda could have gotten more of an intelligent, sophisticated, capable gentleman (which IMO, she really craves). Robert was right there. But Miranda didn't want to do the emotional work of trying to open her heart to someone else. That's why in the movies, Charlotte is very happy in her marriage with Harry and has sex three times a week while Miranda needed her arm twisted to have sex more than once in six months with Steve. Charlotte found her ONE while Miranda settled. 

 

IMO, no way did Miranda settle. She was dating Blair Underwood's character and things were going well, and Steve had been in a relationship with a lovely woman for awhile when Miranda told Steve she loved him during Brady's birthday party. Steve had accepted their breakup and had moved on and as far as he knew, so did Miranda; SHE is the one who initiated their reconciliation. If you really look at the history of their relationship, Miranda called the shots way more than Steve did. They both had their faults, but they loved each other. 

Getting back to Charlotte, I agree that no way did she settle - she truly loved Harry.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Gothish520

[Mu Shu]

On 5/28/2018 at 7:10 PM, Maherjunkie said:

Why does it matter if they are privliged and shallow?

Because I find it uninteresting and boring, that’s why.