Carrie

[Inquisitionist]

3 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

I noticed earlier during the episode where Aidan wants to introduce Carrie to his parents, she tells him she's not nervous about meeting parents because parents love her, think she's adorable.  Say what?  Seriously, Carrie . . . can your head get any bigger?  

Well, the parents of the premature ejaculator did love her.  ;-)  But yeah, I could never figure out Aidan's attachment to her. 

[Sun-Bun]

I just re-watched the episode of Carrie reconsidering her relationship with "The Russian" because he told her he was too old and officially done having children. She was 38 and still wondering if she wanted to have a baby...seeing how her character ended up in the movies, all shacked up living her rich and materialistic lifestyle with Big, it just seems so weird to even see her once seriously questioning/considering motherhood...as shallow and self-centered as she was even back then, the idea of Carrie raising a child seems insane. She never projected the selfless maternal warmth of either Charlotte or even Miranda((who showed such tremendous character growth throughout the series' run))...and although it was annoying the way Charlotte kept encouraging her to be a "baby person", that very much was how baby-crazy Char's character was.

I guess like Carrie said in that actual episode, she was caught up in the "should" consideration of motherhood versus actually wanting to be a mother. I remember another episode where she had a pregnancy scare with Big and was similarly conflicted. It just never rang true to me that her character was so intrigued with potential motherhood---I wish her character had been able to fully embrace the ChildFree lifestyle a'la Samantha who owned her personal choices and never wavered. The whole motherhood confusion of her character seemed like a convenient plot device to me, almost a cop-out for the writers.

Of course, it's always squicked me out how most television shows are so pro-natal and the reality of ChildFree choices and abortion is hardly ever explored or discussed. Carrie would've been a true model of the "modern woman" of that era had her character come right out and admitted that she didn't want to ever be a mother and was okay with that. Thank God Samantha gladly took on that role with such gusto!!

Edited December 29, 2017 by Sun-Bun

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

I just re-watched the episode of Carrie reconsidering her relationship with "The Russian" because he told her he was too old and officially done having children. She was 38 and still wondering if she wanted to have a baby...seeing how her character ended up in the movies, all shacked up living her rich and materialistic lifestyle with Big, it just seems so weird to even see her once seriously questioning/considering motherhood...as shallow and self-centered as she was even back then, the idea of Carrie raising a child seems insane. She never projected the selfless maternal warmth of either Charlotte or even Miranda((who showed such tremendous character growth throughout the series' run))...and although it was annoying the way Charlotte kept encouraging her to be a "baby person", that very much was how baby-crazy Char's character was.

I guess like Carrie said in that actual episode, she was caught up in the "should" consideration of motherhood versus actually wanting to be a mother. I remember another episode where she had a pregnancy scare with Big and was similarly conflicted. It just never rang true to me that her character was so intrigued with potential motherhood---I wish her character had been able to fully embrace the ChildFree lifestyle a'la Samantha who owned her personal choices and never wavered. The whole motherhood confusion of her character seemed like a convenient plot device to me, almost a cop-out for the writers.

Of course, it's always squicked me out how most television shows are so pro-natal and the reality of ChildFree choices and abortion is hardly ever explored or discussed. Carrie would've been a true model of the "modern woman" of that era had her character come right out and admitted that she didn't want to ever be a mother and was okay with that. Thank God Samantha gladly took on that role with such gusto!!

I agree. It never felt right or in character for Carrie to stop and think about kids. It would have been in character for her to not want kids or ever stop to think about having kids. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I disagree. I thought the movies made an excellent point (the only excellent thing about them) by having her own the choice as a 40 something married woman. In your twenties you’re still “young”, at 40 it tends to be a done deal one way or another, so your thirties are the decade when you decide about motherhood. And since Carrie always wanted a certain lifestyle, it’s easy to see how she’d waffle, because the fairytale, all-consuming love she claimed to be seeking usually came with babies ever after. 

[Melancholy]

On 12/30/2017 at 11:50 AM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I disagree. I thought the movies made an excellent point (the only excellent thing about them) by having her own the choice as a 40 something married woman. In your twenties you’re still “young”, at 40 it tends to be a done deal one way or another, so your thirties are the decade when you decide about motherhood. And since Carrie always wanted a certain lifestyle, it’s easy to see how she’d waffle, because the fairytale, all-consuming love she claimed to be seeking usually came with babies ever after. 

I really agree with this, especially the part where Carrie conflated the retro highly masculine/feminine all consuming love that she wanted with children because they usually go together. Actually, I thought that ep where she was pondering Alex’s refusal to have more children was more about Carrie assessing Alex’s interest in committing to her long term than Carrie actually being torn about children. Carrie only gave thought to having children in the context of whether Big/Alex- the two lovers who were mysterious and elusive but represented the best chance of delivering a secure, luxurious life and successful match to Carrie- would do it with her. I don’t think that’s typical of a woman who wants children or is really torn about kids- they would consider the possibility of kids in other non-romantic contexts or with their other long term relationships (Burger, especially Aiden). 

[film noire]

On 12/29/2017 at 10:04 PM, andromeda331 said:

I agree. It never felt right or in character for Carrie to stop and think about kids. 

They did a storyline about Carrie thinking she might be pregnant in season one, so they laid the backstory down years before -- I always liked the scene between Miranda and Carrie re: maternal instincts:

Carrie: What if I am?
Miranda: If you am, you am.
Carrie: I don't think I'd be very good at this. I mean, am I maternal?
Miranda: Um...ye...
Carrie: You know when I was a little girl, I left my favorite baby doll out in the rain for four days. Her face peeled off. That can't be good.
Miranda: Yeah, but I mean if you...
Carrie: I shaved my Barbie's head when I was mad at her.
Miranda: When I was little, I took a rubber band and put it around my dog Pepper's snout.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Even though this topic has been done to death, I'll never be tired of it.

People are saying upthread that Carrie pushed Charlotte to loan her the money because she didn't volunteer.  I don't think it's just that, and I know this has been discussed before.  Carrie has a fucked up sense of morality.  She wouldn't take the money from Big because then she'd owe him.  Oh boo hoo you big Baby, that is how loans WORK.  She wouldn't take it from Samantha, because I don't remember why, and she wouldn't take it from Miranda, because she was pregnant.  In the end I believe she wants the money from Charlotte because Carrie feels that Charlotte did not EARN the money she has, for example her diamond ring and her apartment she got in the settlement from Trey.  Miranda earned her money, Samantha earned her money, but good fortune rains upon Charlotte and it's not fair.  (Not how I think, how Carrie thinks).  Now, Charlotte was getting DIVORCED and that is horrible for almost anyone.  She wasn't just swimming in good fortune but going through something horrible.  And no matter what money Charlotte has or how it came to Charlotte it's none of Carrie's fucking business and Charlotte didn't volunteer so Carrie needed to Back. Off.  Sense of entitlement.  Total princess.  Charlotte isn't the princess, Carrie is.  Carrie thought Charlotte had extra money lying around so OF COURSE Charlotte should lend it.  Carrie gave Aidan back his ring and Charlotte didn't give hers back to Trey but Carrie thought OF COURSE Charlotte should return that ring.  Sense of entitlement, fucked up morality.  It's not Carrie's business.

(I can't find it online but I know that Charlotte says "Oh I PAIIIIIID for that apartment" so I know it's in response to someone, probably Carrie, saying, "But you didn't pay for that apartment.")

Edited January 7, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[msani19]

Bravo @Ms Blue Jay I agree wholeheartedly. I have a list of the most fucked up things Carrie did during the show and that one ranks as close to the top as any other thing she did. She was disgusting in her behavior with Charlotte and Charlotte EARNED that money just surviving that bizarre marriage in which she gave up a lot. How Carrie had any friends left after some of her antics astonishes me. She seems like the kind of person who could make friends but keeping them is another matter altogether. She is thoughtless, judgemental, petty, small-minded, selfish, rude, and self-centered (x 1000!). I wouldn't put up with her.

No way in hell am I bailing out a friend who literally spent herself into poverty and has no ability to figure out her next step without whining & demanding money from her friends. BTW, Carrie, your next step was TO MOVE, you can't afford that place and wasn't it even rent-stabilized? She's the worst. Miranda and Samantha were high-income professionals who must have paid attention to their money, even while having fun and enjoying life. The fact that they could even make such an offer to bail Carrie out, means they had money set aside unlike Carrie. 

My mantra for giving money to friends or anyone is to never give money you cant afford to lose. With someone like Carrie, I would NEVER see ONE CENT BACK EVER. She's a nightmare. Plus, she still didn't seem to learn anything from bullying Charlotte for that money, did she start saving?  Adjust her spending? Nope. She's a jerk. I even wanted to pretend that when she got her hands on BIG'S money that she paid Charlotte back, but it's Carrie, so that wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, I'll never get tired of talking about how awful Carrie is either. It's actually quite cathartic!

[BBHN]

Quote

Plus, she still didn't seem to learn anything from bullying Charlotte for that money, did she start saving?  Adjust her spending? Nope.

2 or 3 episodes later, in the season finale, she decided she needed a new pair of expensive shoes to celebrate Big's last night in New York. Never mind that she already had 30 pairs already. Never mind that she was telling people she had to take the bus (*sob*the humanity of it all*sob*). Never mind that she probably still owed Charlotte money. No, Carrie needed a new pair of shoes, and nothing will stop Carrie from living the fabulous life she feels she is entitled to.

God, what an asshole.

Edited January 8, 2018 by BBHN

[Ms Blue Jay]

Also the shoes have to be about $500 each, if we're to go by "A Woman's Right to Shoes".  Of course, I was on Carrie's side in THAT episode, but if you need to scream at your friends to lend you thousands of dollars, stop buying shoes and wear the ones you already fucking have!  The places she was going were not even that special, it wasn't like she was doing red carpets.  She was going to people's houses and maybe some restaurants.  Repeat your shoes.

[Qoass]

I wonder if Charlotte would have been so supportive if she knew that when Aiden showed Carrie the love seat he made for Charlotte and Trey's wedding gift she responded, "It's too nice!".

[Ms Blue Jay]

LOL yeah because of her own damn guilt for being a horrible girlfriend.  It's Always About Carrie!

[Sun-Bun]

53 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

LOL yeah because of her own damn guilt for being a horrible girlfriend.  It's Always About Carrie!

Seriously! And then she had to go blurt out her cheating to Aiden the DAY OF Charlotte's wedding? Comon now...that was definitely a big "Carrie is a selfish cow" moment in my book. Homegirl could've at least held it together for one extra damned day just for her friend's sake, but oh no, her "guilt" just couldn't be denied any longer!

[msani19]

Blech. Another of Carrie's most fucked up moments! She was so consumed by the guilt of her horrible behavior she couldn't wait one freaking second. Although, she could just have easily blurted it out during the ceremony, so maybe we can give her some credit for her restraint /sarcasm

I would enjoy seeing a list of all of Carrie's terrible moments so that we can re-hash them. We already talked about bullying Charlotte about the money and then this one with Charlotte's wedding.

- Harassing Nastaha for forgiveness after contributing to the destruction of the marriage and agonizing over WHY won't she forgive me - you're a horrible person

- Clearly, cheating on Aiden - she didn't deserve him

-Reuniting with Aiden, accepting his proposal and refusing to wear the engagement ring on her finger like a normal mature human being - GTFOH here with that wearing it around your neck nonsense. 

- Sending Aiden over to Miranda's instead of going herself after Miranda needed her help and poor Miranda is naked and not expecting to see her asshole friends' boyfriend - so selfish. What was her lame reason again? I mean at least let Miranda know it was going to be Aiden and not you. She was naked onthe bathroom floor for christ sakes!

- Apologizing to Miranda with bagels - I always imagine that they were stale, dry ass bagels cause even getting a peace-offering gift was probably an after thought

-Inviting Big to come out to Aiden's house - why? WHY?

-The constant shrieking. What the eff was that shit? It made me out of my mind insane. I know that's not quite an "asshole" moment, I just found it to be a terrible character trait :-)

- That ridiculous " You have to forgive me!" bit - no chick he does not have to do anything like that. You're lucky he even listened to you and I can't believe he even considered getting back together with you. 

- Her complete irresponsibility with money - this one irks me so much! I also like nice things (who doesn't like nice things!) but I save and plan for them. Her shoe collection may have seemed enviable but those shoes aren't practical and city streets will destroy them!

- Her slut shaming Sam after seeing her give a BJ to the UPS/FedEx guy - Sam didn't judge you for having a freaking affair which objectively is leaps and bounds worse than giving a random guy a BJ, and you have the nerve to give her shit? Lord, Sam is a way better person than me, cause she would have been read for filth.

That's my starting list....while I'm sitting at my desk typing furiously so it looks like I'm working hard, I need to do some actual work!

[msani19]

I'll add her that she's a terrible writer - "I couldn't help but wonder . . . .", then follow that with something completely inane and not profound

[Melancholy]

Ooh, fun. I’ll play! To start, I think she was worse to Big than he was to her.

-Deliberately punching Big in the face after he accidentally rolled on her in his sleep. No, his inability to commit isn’t punishable by physical explosions of temper. 

-Stalking Big and his mother at church. Also, stalking Big’s first wife by deceiving her into wasting her work time on a ruse project. 

-Demanding that Big declare her The One after they’ve just been dating like 6 months and both hadn’t said they loved each other.

-Treating Big like garbage with drunken rage calling and throwing a burger because Big had to relocate to Paris for work

-Leaving Big in the middle of their date together to attend a party for one of Big’s friends to go with Jeremiah, the cater-waitor  where they were so drunk and inappropriately close that Carrie thought they may have had drunk sex. Not even having the fidelity to last through a date together doesn’t exactly make me think Big is the asshole because he hadn’t told her that he loved her yet  

-After Stanford pulled strings to get her a New York Magazine interview, arriving an hours late, hung over mess and then getting pissy that Stanford and his boyfriend were irritated with her. 

-How she treated Samantha after the cancer diagnosis. First, refusing to hear any negativity or sadness at all from Samantha or Alek so that she can “It’s gonna be fine” platitude. There, Samantha correctly gently reproached Carrie and asked to be given the space to share her feelings. But also, Carrie running around the wig store like a 5 year old trying on costume wigs instead of doing her job and staying with Samantha to help her shop. Or Carrie pulling faces and scolding Samantha for her anger and f-bombs at finding out that she had to get chemo instead of engaging with Samantha’s justified desire for a second opinion as Charlotte and Miranda did. 

I have more but I have to work now. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Melancholy

[Ms Blue Jay]

I have to admit that when it comes to Carrie in the early seasons with Big, I am usually on Carrie's side.  But that's just me personally.  When it comes to Big, or Tatum O'Neal in the infamous Shoes episode, I am on Carrie's side.

When it comes to her friends, I am usually on THEIR side.  LOL.  When it comes to Aidan, even though I don't even like Aidan, I am usually on his side too.  She's so passive aggressive.  If you can't quit smoking BE HONEST and break up with Aidan.  If you don't want to get married to someone DON'T ACCEPT THEIR PROPOSAL, and maybe even break up because Aidan wanted that commitment NOW.  Carrie always wants her cake and to eat it too.  No hard decisions, nothing black and white.  Just don't ever make her feel too uncomfortable and let her always get what she wants.  Remember when Carrie on a whim decided Aidan was hot and wanted him back and Aidan was hesitating and then he finally screamed "YOU BROKE MY HEART!!!!!!!!!!!"  What did Carrie do?  Run full speed away.  Hahahahhahahaaaaaaaaaa.   And sure when it comes to Natasha, I am also not on Carrie's side.  Carrie was such an asshole about it.  If you break up a marriage LEAVE THE JILTED WIFE ALONE AFTERWARDS.  (not saying that breaking up a marriage is okay, LOL.)

I don't think the Carrie of S1 or S2 would slut-shame Samantha.  She unabashedly had a Fuck Buddy.  She'd go to swing clubs for research.  She hung out with a modelizer who would brazenly show her the porn tapes of all his conquests.  Early seasons Carrie (very much based on Candace Bushnell's book) wouldn't even bat an eye.  She was supposed to be a sex. columnist.  Remember the naked dress she wore on her first date with Big?  She also had a friend who had sex for money (Amalita) and she even accidentally did it herself.

Then S3 rolls around and Miss Prude shrieks at everything whether it's bisexuality or a mouse in the middle of the country.  Let alone her friend being pleasured at the office, LOL.  

Edited:  Added the word "not".  Sorry, typo or Freudian slip

Edited January 13, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[msani19]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Early seasons Carrie (very much based on Candace Bushnell's book) wouldn't even bat an eye.  She was supposed to be a sex. columnist.

Your post was really interesting. I wonder how much of the change in Carrie (early season versus late season) is due to the early season Carrie having the book as source material and then later season Carrie was based on SJP input and less so based on the book? Yes, for a sex columnist, the later season Carrie was ridiculously judgemental and closed-minded. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Thanks!  The pilot was about Carrie researching the topic of having sex with men without feelings about it.  She openly admitted to Big that she was researching the topic for an article.  And she actually tried to do it with an ex.  The book is awesome, it's always been a favourite of mine.  The tone is very cynical, minimalist, 90s NYC.  Minimalist fashion, minimalist feelings.  Everything's stripped down and streamline and casual from the sex to the clothes to the friendships!  Obviously the tone of the show dramatically changed from there, and I love the entire show, but it was definitely a major whiplash.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Ms Blue Jay

[Qoass]

Quote

 Carrie always wants her cake and to eat it too. 

Which was PAINFULLY demonstrated in "Ghost Town" by that scene between her and Aiden in the alley behind his bar. I'm sure whoever wrote that was congratulating herself on her profundity.

[Melancholy]

On 1/8/2018 at 4:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I have to admit that when it comes to Carrie in the early seasons with Big, I am usually on Carrie's side.  But that's just me personally.  When it comes to Big, or Tatum O'Neal in the infamous Shoes episode, I am on Carrie's side.

When it comes to her friends, I am usually on THEIR side.  LOL.  When it comes to Aidan, even though I don't even like Aidan, I am usually on his side too.  She's so passive aggressive.  If you can't quit smoking BE HONEST and break up with Aidan.  If you don't want to get married to someone DON'T ACCEPT THEIR PROPOSAL, and maybe even break up because Aidan wanted that commitment NOW.  Carrie always wants her cake and to eat it too.  No hard decisions, nothing black and white.  Just don't ever make her feel too uncomfortable and let her always get what she wants.  Remember when Carrie on a whim decided Aidan was hot and wanted him back and Aidan was hesitating and then he finally screamed "YOU BROKE MY HEART!!!!!!!!!!!"  What did Carrie do?  Run full speed away.  Hahahahhahahaaaaaaaaaa.   And sure when it comes to Natasha, I am also on Carrie's side.  Carrie was such an asshole about it.  If you break up a marriage LEAVE THE JILTED WIFE ALONE AFTERWARDS.  (not saying that breaking up a marriage is okay, LOL.)

I don't think the Carrie of S1 or S2 would slut-shame Samantha.  She unabashedly had a Fuck Buddy.  She'd go to swing clubs for research.  She hung out with a modelizer who would brazenly show her the porn tapes of all his conquests.  Early seasons Carrie (very much based on Candace Bushnell's book) wouldn't even bat an eye.  She was supposed to be a sex. columnist.  Remember the naked dress she wore on her first date with Big?  She also had a friend who had sex for money (Amalita) and she even accidentally did it herself.

Then S3 rolls around and Miss Prude shrieks at everything whether it's bisexuality or a mouse in the middle of the country.  Let alone her friend being pleasured at the office, LOL.  

Yeah, I'm usually against Carrie. Basically ALWAYS on her friends' side. I can't think of a time that Carrie seriously quarreled with a friend and I took her side. I didn't like Aiden but I was still on his side. The thing with early!Big is that I think he was pretty clear in word and deed that he wasn't interested in committing to Carrie for a long-term shared partnership. I have a level of sympathy for Carrie because while Big constantly maintained that in the early seasons, they had wonderful chemistry and a glow of destiny (borne out by the ending of the show). So yeah, that made Carrie think that Big's statements and gestures of non-commitment weren't real and shouldn't be respected at all. However, it's not enough sympathy to obscure the overriding principles. Lovers don't owe the other lover commitment unless it's been mutually promised. It's both destructive and self-destructive to brow-beat and harass a lover into giving a commitment that they don't want to give themselves. And that's what Carrie was doing- absolutely harassing and brow-beating Big into commitments. What's more, I do believe that Carrie truly loved Big. However, I do think that Carrie didn't do what most women would and walk away to find a man who could commit as much as she wanted because she thought she snared her big whale of a high-status man with wealth and glamor. Carrie partly had trouble letting go of Big because she was blindly in love but there's a significant part of Carrie that WASN'T blind but instead had a gimlet-eye view to how she wasn't going to let go of his easy, luxurious future in her grasp. There are times where I think Big is the bigger asshole. When he stalks her and pressures her into having an affair with him is the ultimate example. But generally, I thought she was worse to him. 

I did agree with Carrie in the Shoe episode. I took her side over Burger's a bunch. While she was a superficial moron for going to Paris with Alek, I agreed that he treated her poorly there. I also thought he was domineering when they were in NY even though that didn't bother Carrie as much. 

Adding to my list:

-Outing Miranda's planned abortion to Aiden (who's a friend of Steve's). "I can't keep secrets from Aiden." Aw, I think she knew how to do that pretty well when she was carrying on an affair with Big for weeks, pretending to have quit smoking while still smoking on the sly, pretending to enthusiastically accept a proposal that she didn't want, and even in the very same episode, lying to Aiden about her past emotion and really struggling with being honest with him about in the episode while she could easily blurt out Miranda's secrets. Then, getting all prudishly defensive over how she just had ONE abortion and her baby-daddy HAD status because he was a waiter at a HAPPENING place instead of focusing on Miranda who was going through a real crisis (as Samatha was.)  

-Pressuring Samantha to come to her book launch party after Samantha was demurring because of her chemical peel. And then, cattily mocking Samantha in their every interaction for looking ugly after the peel. 

-At Miranda's drinks to celebrate/deal with how she was moving to Brooklyn, gloating about Manhattan is the most fabulous instead of fully supporting Miranda's practical choice to move to Brooklyn. "Why is living in Manhattan so fantastic?' "....Because it *is*" <smug voice>

-Showing up to her first meeting with her editor of Vogue to go over her first piece and NOT bringing a pen to take notes and getting into a snit that Enid criticizes the article. And even though it was at the invitation of the pervy old man manager who wanted to get into her pants, getting plastered at Vogue on her first day so that she couldn't even walk out there unassisted. Note, this was the big job that proved her worthiness to get a loan from Charlotte in the last episode to make the downpayment on her house. However, there goes Carrie endangering the big break in multiple ways. 

-Bitching about how Aiden was all up in her space...after he purchase said space to live together and bail out her financially irresponsible ass. 

-I'm sure it was tough to listen Miranda get VERY angry and disapproving after Carrie said that she was meeting Big (recently after the affair). I'd have sympathy for Carrie if she fought Miranda over how Miranda spoke to her or Miranda for judging her. However, Carrie crosses the line to unforgivable after she tries recovering her upper hand by accusing Miranda of cutting EVERYONE out her life once they show the slightest flaw and accusing Miranda of doing that to Steve. It's such an OTT, off-topic, mean way of trying to get her way back to a more comfortable offense-position in the argument. Carrie was sympathetically listening to Miranda describe her mounting frustrations with Steve's childishness and demands. However suddenly when Carrie needed canon-fodder in this argument, she retroactively cast Miranda as the bitch for breaking up with Steve. 

-Similarly, it was profoundly unfair and cruel of Carrie to accuse Miranda of wanting her to remain single and in NY for Miranda's enjoyment just because Miranda disagreed with Carrie moving to Paris for Alek. I don't even know Carrie got that from. That's not the Miranda who supported her relationship with Berger and Aiden and even, shopped for wedding rings with Aiden (another point where Carrie was bitchy to Miranda about the "bad ring".) Miranda is over-invested in Carrie's life and it's kind of creepy- but THAT'S Miranda's flaw. It's not some nefarious motive where Miranda doesn't want Carrie to find a husband as Miranda did. 

-She ditches her friends in the most thoughtless way. Like, when she stood up Miranda when Miranda met Steve because she was with Big and "...there was this veal." Or when, her friends are hungrily sitting and waiting for her for brunch but she's with Alek because "it's cold out." And she didn't call to cancel in both instances- her friends had to call her. Or when she ditched Charlotte at the opera just because she glimpsed Big from a distance. Or ditching Charlotte again when Charlotte was blind-folded so that Carrie could try on shoes. 

-How she treats Aiden when he's so helpful and kind after her computer crashed when her foolish ass didn't have Clue 1 on how to deal with it or the importance of backing up work. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Melancholy

[ByTor]

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 0:47 PM, msani19 said:

 Sending Aiden over to Miranda's instead of going herself

In Carrie's defense, she did say she had a meeting with her editor & it was too late to cancel it, so I understand that she couldn't have gone herself.  I agree, though, that she shouldn't have sent her boyfriend.  She should have checked to see if Sam or Charlotte could have gone instead.

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 0:09 AM, BBHN said:

2 or 3 episodes later, in the season finale, she decided she needed a new pair of expensive shoes to celebrate Big's last night in New York. Never mind that she already had 30 pairs already.

30?  LOL Do you think she's an amateur? :) 

I recently rewatched the later seasons, and she said she had something like 100 pairs.  And I guess we can add "bad at arithmetic" to Carrie's flaws, because when Miranda told Carrie she had 100 pairs at $400 a pop, Miranda had to correct Carrie that she did not spend a "mere" $4,000 on shoes but $40,000.

On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

And sure when it comes to Natasha, I am also on Carrie's side. 

Did you mean you are on Natasha's side?

Edited January 12, 2018 by ByTor

[chitowngirl]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

In Carrie's defense, she did say she had a meeting with her editor & it was too late to cancel it, so I understand that she couldn't have gone herself.  I agree, though, that she shouldn't have sent her boyfriend.  She should have checked to see if Sam or Charlotte could have gone instead.

Plus, Carrie is 5' tall and weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. What was she supposed to do? She wouldn't have been able to move Miranda anywhere!

[ByTor]

47 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Plus, Carrie is 5' tall and weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. What was she supposed to do? She wouldn't have been able to move Miranda anywhere!

Good point.

[msani19]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

Plus, Carrie is 5' tall and weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. What was she supposed to do? She wouldn't have been able to move Miranda anywhere!

Grrr...I hate to cede any ground in Carrie's favor but this is fair. I mean, it almost physically hurt me to type that. She still certainly could have called for additional help after putting clothes on her poor naked friend.

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 hours ago, ByTor said:

Did you mean you are on Natasha's side?

Yeah

[JAYJAY1979]

4 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Plus, Carrie is 5' tall and weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. What was she supposed to do? She wouldn't have been able to move Miranda anywhere!

 

True, but she should of gone with Aiden.. and checked to make sure Miranda was covered up before letting Aidan in to see her.  Carrie is a symbol of almost every negative stereotype of women.. and why men fear commitment. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

 

True, but she should of gone with Aiden.. and checked to make sure Miranda was covered up before letting Aidan in to see her.  Carrie is a symbol of almost every negative stereotype of women.. and why men fear commitment. 

And why restraining orders were invented. 

[cpcathy]

And then she brought "bullshit bagels!"

[Melancholy]

Adding to the list.

-Bitching about Nina Katz incessantly. To Miranda who didn't have time for this shit. To Samantha was helping Miranda babysit a crying infant. And non-stop to Stanford even though Stanford kept trying to fish for Carrie's attention to the first real relationship that he's had in years so that Carrie could reciprocate all of the attention that Stanford paid to Carrie's life over the year. And nowhere in Carrie's days-long bitchfest over Nina did Carrie even broach taking some responsibility that she treated Aiden poorly. No, it's only about Carrie honestly believing that SHE'S the wronged party because Nina dared form a negative opinion of her after listening to Aiden's account of their relationship. Even if Carrie wasn't such a horrible girlfriend to Aiden, Nina would still have every right to form whatever impression that she wants based on Aiden's account. People don't have some obligation to see out the subject of the gossip when the subject is a stranger and get their side of the story. But it's a moot point- because Carrie really doesn't have a positive side of her story in the Carrie/Aiden relationship. And the way that she mistreated her friends over this non-issue underscores how more judgey faces should be pulled at her all over the city.

-"Paper covers rock." <slams her break-up post-it over Charlotte's engagement ring>

-Leaving Aiden to go club-hop with a glamorous gay guy and then, having an epic pout because the glamorous gay guy wanted to flirt and converse with cute strangers as single people do in clubs. She's so grossly entitled. If you want fidelity and exclusive attention, stay with your boyfriend. Don't feel entitled to it from a gay guy who you've just met a few days ago and is just getting you a hook-up to the key-club. 

-Not only inviting Big to Aiden's cabin (as covered above.) Also trying to appeal to Aiden's sympathy for Big with "Hey, didn't you ever have a girl break your hear...?" <trails off after she realizes that yes, she did break Aiden's heart. For her relationship with Big.> This is all what, several episodes after Aiden took her back? Like, poor Aiden didn't even get one episode where Carrie was just grateful that he forgave her and took her back and they peacefully co-existing in a nice reciprocally generous relationship. It's the YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE ME episode. The HOW DARE YOU GET ME A LAPTOP AND TRY TO HELP ME WHEN I LOST MY WORK BECAUSE OF MY STUPIDITY. I CAN TAKE CARE OF MYSELF! YOU CAN TELL BECAUSE I CAN'T FILE THE MANUAL, FILE THE WARRANTY, EVEN ATTEMPT TO FIX THE COMPUTER, OR EVEN KNOW ABOUT BACKING UP WORK episode. The I HATE YOUR COUNTRY HOUSE episode. And then the, YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT BIG IN YOUR BELOVED COUNTRY HOUSE episode. 

-In a related vein, analyzing her break-up with Aiden to Berger with a faux-ironic "We had to get back together. Just in case we didn't sufficiently hurt each other the first time around." She really doesn't get that she DID ALL THE HURTING. Inarguably on Time #1 and I feel strongly on Time #2. 

-Carrie is BY FAR the most likely of the four to derail a conversation about her friends' pregnancy issues, children, divorces, marriages, CANCER, you know, big-time life stuff with a trivial aside about her own life. Recently rewatched A Vogue Idea. Not only does Carrie jabber about the Vogue criticism of her articles over Miranda's conundrum of trying to shop for everything Brady needs before delivery-day, Carrie reacts to Miranda/Charlotte/even Samantha's focus on the more important topic with a childish pout of "I don't know and I don't care who's having a baby" as she flips through the Vogue purse pictures. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Melancholy

[BBHN]

Quote

No, it's only about Carrie honestly believing that SHE'S the wronged party because Nina dared form a negative opinion of her after listening to Aiden's account of their relationship.

And what worried her even more was that Nina was going to blab to every single person who worked on and would guest star on SNL about Carrie. Because, you know, if Tom Hanks, for example, was guesting on the show, Nina would chase him down just to shit talk about Carrie or something. Because all of New York and beyond is wondering about and interested in the social life of some barely B-list writer.

Edited January 17, 2018 by BBHN

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Adding to the list.

-Bitching about Nina Katz incessantly. To Miranda who didn't have time for this shit. To Samantha was helping Miranda babysit a crying infant. And non-stop to Stanford even though Stanford kept trying to fish for Carrie's attention to the first real relationship that he's had in years so that Carrie could reciprocate all of the attention that Stanford paid to Carrie's life over the year. And nowhere in Carrie's days-long bitchfest over Nina did Carrie even broach taking some responsibility that she treated Aiden poorly. No, it's only about Carrie honestly believing that SHE'S the wronged party because Nina dared form a negative opinion of her after listening to Aiden's account of their relationship. Even if Carrie wasn't such a horrible girlfriend to Aiden, Nina would still have every right to form whatever impression that she wants based on Aiden's account. People don't have some obligation to see out the subject of the gossip when the subject is a stranger and get their side of the story. But it's a moot point- because Carrie really doesn't have a positive side of her story in the Carrie/Aiden relationship. And the way that she mistreated her friends over this non-issue underscores how more judgey faces should be pulled at her all over the city.

-"Paper covers rock." <slams her break-up post-it over Charlotte's engagement ring>

-Leaving Aiden to go club-hop with a glamorous gay guy and then, having an epic pout because the glamorous gay guy wanted to flirt and converse with cute strangers as single people do in clubs. She's so grossly entitled. If you want fidelity and exclusive attention, stay with your boyfriend. Don't feel entitled to it from a gay guy who you've just met a few days ago and is just getting you a hook-up to the key-club. 

-Not only inviting Big to Aiden's cabin (as covered above.) Also trying to appeal to Aiden's sympathy for Big with "Hey, didn't you ever have a girl break your hear...?" <trails off after she realizes that yes, she did break Aiden's heart. For her relationship with Big.> This is all what, several episodes after Aiden took her back? Like, poor Aiden didn't even get one episode where Carrie was just grateful that he forgave her and took her back and they peacefully co-existing in a nice reciprocally generous relationship. It's the YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE ME episode. The HOW DARE YOU GET ME A LAPTOP AND TRY TO HELP ME WHEN I LOST MY WORK BECAUSE OF MY STUPIDITY. I CAN TAKE CARE OF MYSELF! YOU CAN TELL BECAUSE I CAN'T FILE THE MANUAL, FILE THE WARRANTY, EVEN ATTEMPT TO FIX THE COMPUTER, OR EVEN KNOW ABOUT BACKING UP WORK episode. The I HATE YOUR COUNTRY HOUSE episode. And then the, YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT BIG IN YOUR BELOVED COUNTRY HOUSE episode. 

-In a related vein, analyzing her break-up with Aiden to Berger with a faux-ironic "We had to get back together. Just in case we didn't sufficiently hurt each other the first time around." She really doesn't get that she DID ALL THE HURTING. Inarguably on Time #1 and I feel strongly on Time #2. 

-Carrie is BY FAR the most likely of the four to derail a conversation about her friends' pregnancy issues, children, divorces, marriages, CANCER, you know, big-time life stuff with a trivial aside about her own life. Recently rewatched A Vogue Idea. Not only does Carrie jabber about the Vogue criticism of her articles over Miranda's conundrum of trying to shop for everything Brady needs before delivery-day, Carrie reacts to Miranda/Charlotte/even Samantha's focus on the more important topic with a childish pout of "I don't know and I don't care who's having a baby" as she flips through the Vogue purse pictures. 

I know this question keeps coming up. But seriously how does Carrie have friends? Who cares Charlotte just got engaged Carrie's been dumped! Who cares Miranda's shopping for her baby Carrie has a problem! A bigger problem then making sure her friend has everything she needs for the arrival of a baby. Also how does she keep getting guys? Carrie's worried about Nina? I don't doubt Aiden's telling his friends about the crappy way she treated him but she's not worried about all other guys who were lucky enough to date the head case? How is it by season five all of NYC hasn't been warned about Carrie and avoid dating her. In case she stalks their mother, their ex-wife, cheats on them with her ex, searches their apartment for stuff, flips out at you no matter what you say, and never wants to do what you want to do.  You'd think guys would start recognizing her and run away.  

[Melancholy]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I know this question keeps coming up. But seriously how does Carrie have friends? Who cares Charlotte just got engaged Carrie's been dumped! Who cares Miranda's shopping for her baby Carrie has a problem! A bigger problem then making sure her friend has everything she needs for the arrival of a baby. Also how does she keep getting guys? Carrie's worried about Nina? I don't doubt Aiden's telling his friends about the crappy way she treated him but she's not worried about all other guys who were lucky enough to date the head case? How is it by season five all of NYC hasn't been warned about Carrie and avoid dating her. In case she stalks their mother, their ex-wife, cheats on them with her ex, searches their apartment for stuff, flips out at you no matter what you say, and never wants to do what you want to do.  You'd think guys would start recognizing her and run away.  

Lol. I’ve often noted that Carrie had a much bigger social set in the early seasons. The later seasons had a more insular social circle of the girls, Stanford, and current boyfriend with Big waiting in the wings. I’ve generally just interpreted it by how the show evolved (or devolved) into just a show about these four women as opposed a snapshot of how New Yorkers of all backgrounds deal with love and sex. But maybe Amalita, Jeremiah, the modelizer artist, the homely woman with the verbally abusive husband, etc. just grew tired of Carrie’s miserable personality. 

[BBHN]

I think also in earlier seasons, the show was more episodic, whereas later on, it became a soap opera of sorts. Granted, not the crazy daytime kind, but still lol

[Sun-Bun]

1 hour ago, BBHN said:

I think also in earlier seasons, the show was more episodic, whereas later on, it became a soap opera of sorts. Granted, not the crazy daytime kind, but still lol

Yes indeed---the show had a completely different feel in the first two seasons. Isn't that back when Candace Bushnell had more creative control? Carrie and the gals definitely had more friends and varied social circles back then---like what happened to their nerdy friend Skippy who was hopelessly in love with Miranda? He just vanished forever after the second season. Or the lady with the crazy husband who yelled at Carrie to get out of their apartment one night??((I forget her name but think she was on several episodes)) 

Then there was Carrie and random strangers talking directly into the camera about the episode's topic; I think that stopped right after the first season. It was kinda funny at first but probably would've gotten old and felt forced if it'd been continued throughout the series.

And the gals certainly dressed differently early on; Miranda was usually in dark pantsuits and wore dowdy items and the gals barely wore much color as well, like most typical Manhattanites! Carrie favored more vintage and mixed high/low items---she certainly wasn't the designer label fashion victim she later became. 

[ivygirl]

I’ve been watching the Carrie Diaries, and I couldn’t help but wonder: Are we truly expected to believe that the  sweet, naïve, and somewhat thoughtful Carrie of the Carrie Diaries is the same Carrie of SATC? Sure, there are common traits (love of Manhatttan, obsession with trendy style, overanalysis)—but Carrie Diaries Carrie at least shows *some* consideration for her friends, and evidences few of the traits that you’ve all enumerated so eloquently above.

Carrie Diaries, BTW, is pretty cute. Maybe too sweet for some, but enjoyable. It’s like a girlier, trend-obsessed, East-Coast-ier version of Freaks and Geeks. OK maybe not *that* level of greatness. But a teen dramedy that really should’ve stood on its own.

4 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

Yes indeed---the show had a completely different feel in the first two seasons. Isn't that back when Candace Bushnell had more creative control? Carrie and the gals definitely had more friends and varied social circles back then---like what happened to their nerdy friend Skippy who was hopelessly in love with Miranda? He just vanished forever after the second season. Or the lady with the crazy husband who yelled at Carrie to get out of their apartment one night??((I forget her name but think she was on several episodes)) . 

Oh yeah... the one who’s rumored to be modeled after RHONY Dorinda!

[Inquisitionist]

21 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

Or the lady with the crazy husband who yelled at Carrie to get out of their apartment one night??((I forget her name but think she was on several episodes)) 

Susan Sharon played by Molly Price?  The yelling husband episode was in S2, then she showed up again in S4 when Carrie was engaged to Aiden.  I think she commented on Carrie's wearing her engagement ring on a chain around her neck.

[Melancholy]

19 hours ago, ivygirl said:

I’ve been watching the Carrie Diaries, and I couldn’t help but wonder: Are we truly expected to believe that the  sweet, naïve, and somewhat thoughtful Carrie of the Carrie Diaries is the same Carrie of SATC? Sure, there are common traits (love of Manhatttan, obsession with trendy style, overanalysis)—but Carrie Diaries Carrie at least shows *some* consideration for her friends, and evidences few of the traits that you’ve all enumerated so eloquently above.

Carrie Diaries, BTW, is pretty cute. Maybe too sweet for some, but enjoyable. It’s like a girlier, trend-obsessed, East-Coast-ier version of Freaks and Geeks. OK maybe not *that* level of greatness. But a teen dramedy that really should’ve stood on its own.

Oh yeah... the one who’s rumored to be modeled after RHONY Dorinda!

I’ve never seen The Carrie Diaries. But you know, I could believe Carrie was likable as a young girl. Because she started off likable in the show (except for the Big obsession). She becomes more and more selfish, entitled, rude, self righteous and phoney as the seasons go on until she’s just a bile spewing shrew in the second movie. 

I actually think it’s a realistic arc. As a younger woman, Carrie could just embrace the curious and fun parts of her personality. She was just young. She felt no pressure to show up with a finished life. She was an over grown teenager but in a nice way because she didn’t have anything to rebel against or hate on because her job allowed her to live the teenage dream. Big was the impetus to get her to change. Once she met Big, she saw a winner’s life in her grasp- married to a rich glamorous handsome man and thus, part of his rich set because she snagged the unsnaggable eligible bachelor. At that point, Carrie was flooded with ambition to have a life that others can respect and a new insecurity that she wasn’t attaining this life no matter how much she wanted it and no matter how much chemistry she had with Big and no matter how much she felt they were destined to be together in her bones. This could have been healthy spur for growth but Carrie chose to take it in an unhealthy direction because she was a teenager at heart. She didn’t try to attain the grownup developed stage on her own but instead pouted about how Big wasn’t giving it to her. I think that entitled but also deeply insecure and afraid mindset informs a lot of her later bad behavior. Disrespecting her friends as she grew more jealous and cranky that they were moving on or even in Sam’s case, proudly NOT moving on in the sexual hijinks because Samantha had the independent wealth and internal resources to proudly do that. Treating Aiden like dirt because he was offering a settled, comfortable adulthood but not the most glamorous of endings. Running with Alexander to Paris- not because she had plans and a true desire to live in Paris or because she was madly in love with him- but instead because she saw it as a last option to make a high status match and she was insecure that she hasn’t made it yet like her friends. 

I’m not sure the show intended to write such a dark arc but it makes a lot of sense this way. By the movies, Carrie is a broken person because she spent her formative 30s not developing at all. She never nurtured a healthy relationship. She never did anything new with her career. The book of her columns was just handed to her. She never had kids. So even though she got her desired ending with Big, it’s not like she nurtured the relationship into happening so they were on a better, healthier foot than the early seasons. So, they have an unhappy marriage (that needed a whole movie to occur) largely because Carrie didn’t embrace the Big that she has, but instead regarded him as the unattainable object of her desires. You can’t just be happy to snuggle with an unattainable object of glamour and playboyness. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Melancholy

[ivygirl]

@Melancholy I can understand your theory; it would be interesting to hear your thoughts in comparison if you did happen to watch it. I just felt like Carrie’s corners were rounded a bit too much in The Carrie Diaries. Certain things add up but others kinda don’t. It sounds funny to say that, when Candace Bushnell was involved with TCD, but I guess it’s just a “feeling” that may or may not translate when you’re showing backstory, with a different actress, after the fact.

It’s funny, but I can see someone with the temperament of SJP’s character in Girls Just Wanna Have Fun being a closer match. A nice kid but a bit more edge. AnnaSophia Robb is just very cherubic and the character matches her in that way. A tiny bit too “nice” and a sort of fantasy for nice young girls who have dreams of making it in the Big City (of whom I would’ve been at that age! LOL). Nothing wrong with that :) It may have also been a function of trying to satisfy two audiences—girls who watched the CW, and SATC fans.

[HunterHunted]

On 1/17/2018 at 11:40 AM, Sun-Bun said:

Or the lady with the crazy husband who yelled at Carrie to get out of their apartment one night??((I forget her name but think she was on several episodes))

21 hours ago, ivygirl said:

Oh yeah... the one who’s rumored to be modeled after RHONY Dorinda!

 

4 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Susan Sharon played by Molly Price?  The yelling husband episode was in S2, then she showed up again in S4 when Carrie was engaged to Aiden.  I think she commented on Carrie's wearing her engagement ring on a chain around her neck.

 

Yep. Susan Sharon who was the US representative for a cashmere company and was married to a mean finance guy was allegedly based on Dorinda Medley, now of the Real Housewives of New York. She started a cashmere company that was patronized by Princess Diana. She was married to Ralph Lynch, a finance guy who used to work at Credit Suisse.

[BookWoman56]

On 1/17/2018 at 1:12 AM, andromeda331 said:

I know this question keeps coming up. But seriously how does Carrie have friends? Who cares Charlotte just got engaged Carrie's been dumped! Who cares Miranda's shopping for her baby Carrie has a problem! A bigger problem then making sure her friend has everything she needs for the arrival of a baby. Also how does she keep getting guys? Carrie's worried about Nina? I don't doubt Aiden's telling his friends about the crappy way she treated him but she's not worried about all other guys who were lucky enough to date the head case? How is it by season five all of NYC hasn't been warned about Carrie and avoid dating her. In case she stalks their mother, their ex-wife, cheats on them with her ex, searches their apartment for stuff, flips out at you no matter what you say, and never wants to do what you want to do.  You'd think guys would start recognizing her and run away.  

I've probably shared this opinion before, either here or at TWoP, but Carrie reminds me a good bit of a former friend who was a nonstop drama queen. Everything had to be about her. If celebrity A died, then we had to listen to how horrible that death was, not for the celebrity's family and friends but for our friend, because it made her feel so sad. And here's the thing: after a while, we just gradually dropped her as a friend, because she was just as self-centered as Carrie. If one of us had something major going on, she had something that was supposedly worse.  If something nice was going on for one of us, she couldn't resist pointing out that she didn't have something positive happening for her. And yes, she was always bitching and moaning because we made more money than she did; we had all put in the time/effort to get an education, including one of our group who got married at age 16, was a widow with a baby at age 17, and yet still managed to get a college degree and into a decent career path, versus our friend who sat on her ass and made not the slightest effort to improve her life by learning new skills, etc.,  and instead got involved with men primarily because they could help her financially, but from her perspective it was just never enough. I'm not saying the rest of us got together as a group and decided to dump her, but I do remember a few one-off conversations with individuals in our group, where the gist of the conversation was that they had reached their limit of being friends with someone who was such a shitty friend in return. We were supposed to be her captive audience to listen to her troubles, lend her money when she conveniently forgot her wallet at restaurants and bars, and never expect her to reciprocate. It was through my initial friendship with this person that I first met a few people in our group, with whom I remained friends after I had decided to back the hell away from this toxic friend. 

I also am perplexed as to how all men everywhere were supposed to be instantly smitten with Carrie on an immediate basis. Without exception, my male friends who watched the show always categorized Miranda as the one they would want to talk to, Sam as the one they would want to have a good time with, Charlotte as the one they would want to marry, and Carrie as the one they would run the hell away from because she was BSC. 

[msani19]

The fact that there were any men were interested in Carrie the way the show depicted was sheer and utter fantasy to service SJP's ego -- just my opinion.

Although it irritated me so much that she was attracting as many interesting, attractive, successful men as she was, that is common on tv shows, It's just the men who get women who are far out of their league. In real life, we all know Carrie wouldn't be with Big. He might have "dated" her but she's not meeting his mother or his friends or his colleagues. That's why the first few seasons made more sense than the ego-fueled fantasy land of the last seasons and the movies. 

Plus Carrie could only have acquaintances, not friends. On the surface, she's fun and seems to know cool and interesting places to go in the city. Other than that, she wouldn't be able to offer the support, stability, and reality of a true friendship. I can see texting (not calling) her to ask her "hey is there anything interesting going on this Saturday?" but she's not invited to the brunch with the girls on Sunday.

[BookWoman56]

On 1/18/2018 at 6:35 PM, msani19 said:

The fact that there were any men were interested in Carrie the way the show depicted was sheer and utter fantasy to service SJP's ego -- just my opinion.

Although it irritated me so much that she was attracting as many interesting, attractive, successful men as she was, that is common on tv shows, It's just the men who get women who are far out of their league. In real life, we all know Carrie wouldn't be with Big. He might have "dated" her but she's not meeting his mother or his friends or his colleagues. That's why the first few seasons made more sense than the ego-fueled fantasy land of the last seasons and the movies. 

Adding to the total ridiculousness of the series finale (and the movies), the book upon which the series was based was a very thinly disguised account of the relationship that the author Candace Bushnell had with a real-life Mr. Big. In the book, at the end there is a period where Carrie essentially camps out at Big's apartment because her air conditioning is broken and IIRC, she can't afford to fix it for a while. Big makes it explicitly clear that they are not going to get married, that the temporary living arrangement is not in any way a prelude to living together as a couple, etc. He flatly tells her to stop being so dependent on him.  At the very end of the book (the 2nd edition, anyway, which I still maintain Bushnell had published to clarify how the Carrie/Big relationship ended) Big is described as happily married and Carrie is happily single.  IRL, Big married someone else and Bushnell remained friends with Big and became friends with his wife. And it's easy to see it as a class thing, that he didn't want to marry someone so out of his socioeconomic standing, but it also sounded as if he married someone who was not as emotionally needy. I really thought that the character of Natasha was supposed to be fairly close to the woman who real-life Big married.

Although I had some issues with Bushnell's writing style, I thought she got at the fundamental truth of her relationship with Big. She was infatuated/obsessed with him, and he was entertained for a while, but there was no way in hell he was going to get serious about their relationship, and eventually she accepted reality and moved on. Again, IIRC, Bushnell ended up with or married a ballet star (having MB play Alex was kind of a nod to that); so in real life there was not ever this against all odds romantic ending where they committed to each other. That divergence from the book and reality is one reason I will never forgive the series for its ending. It's not a minor "oh, she's blonde instead of brunette, or a lawyer instead of an accountant" change; it's altering the entire essence of what the book was saying, which was IMO that a lot of people, women and men, have this relationship where they become obsessed with someone and it's just not going to work, and eventually they grow the hell up and move on.  Instead, what we got was season after season of showing what a toxic relationship Carrie and Big had, and how even when there were no inconvenient obstacles to them being together, such as spouses/significant others, their relationship just did not ever work well, but then somehow when Big goes to Paris after Carrie, that's supposed to change the entire tenor of their relationship.

Edited January 21, 2018 by BookWoman56

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

I've probably shared this opinion before, either here or at TWoP, but Carrie reminds me a good bit of a former friend who was a nonstop drama queen. Everything had to be about her. If celebrity A died, then we had to listen to how horrible that death was, not for the celebrity's family and friends but for our friend, because it made her feel so sad. And here's the thing: after a while, we just gradually dropped her as a friend, because she was just as self-centered as Carrie. If one of us had something major going on, she had something that was supposedly worse.  If something nice was going on for one of us, she couldn't resist pointing out that she didn't have something positive happening for her. And yes, she was always bitching and moaning because we made more money than she did; we had all put in the time/effort to get an education, including one of our group who got married at age 16, was a widow with a baby at age 17, and yet still managed to get a college degree and into a decent career path, versus our friend who sat on her ass and made not the slightest effort to improve her life by learning new skills, etc.,  and instead got involved with men primarily because they could help her financially, but from her perspective it was just never enough. I'm not saying the rest of us got together as a group and decided to dump her, but I do remember a few one-off conversations with individuals in our group, where the gist of the conversation was that they had reached their limit of being friends with someone who was such a shitty friend in return. We were supposed to be her captive audience to listen to her troubles, lend her money when she conveniently forgot her wallet at restaurants and bars, and never expect her to reciprocate. It was through my initial friendship with this person that I first met a few people in our group, with whom I remained friends after I had decided to back the hell away from this toxic friend. 

    That's exactly what really should have happened with Carrie. Her friends dropping her at some point. You made the smart move to drop her as a friend.

Quote

I also am perplexed as to how all men everywhere were supposed to be instantly smitten with Carrie on an immediate basis. Without exception, my male friends who watched the show always categorized Miranda as the one they would want to talk to, Sam as the one they would want to have a good time with, Charlotte as the one they would want to marry, and Carrie as the one they would run the hell away from because she was BSC. 

 

 

4 hours ago, msani19 said:

The fact that there were any men were interested in Carrie the way the show depicted was sheer and utter fantasy to service SJP's ego -- just my opinion.

Although it irritated me so much that she was attracting as many interesting, attractive, successful men as she was, that is common on tv shows, It's just the men who get women who are far out of their league. In real life, we all know Carrie wouldn't be with Big. He might have "dated" her but she's not meeting his mother or his friends or his colleagues. That's why the first few seasons made more sense than the ego-fueled fantasy land of the last seasons and the movies. 

Plus Carrie could only have acquaintances, not friends. On the surface, she's fun and seems to know cool and interesting places to go in the city. Other than that, she wouldn't be able to offer the support, stability, and reality of a true friendship. I can see texting (not calling) her to ask her "hey is there anything interesting going on this Saturday?" but she's not invited to the brunch with the girls on Sunday.

I agree. Its completely insane how many men was smitten with Carrie. Every man wanted her. Why? What was so special about Carrie? I'd by at least in the beginning if they saw her at a club, yeah she might be fun. But a one night stand or someone to go out clubbing with. What else is there about Carrie? Sure she writes a sex column but Samantha's more adventurous in that category and would be a lot more fun. But what do all of these men talk to Carrie about? She's very limited in interests and topics despite living in New York City. I don't see talking to her about art, current events, politics, or even about books. Carrie writes her column but doesn't come off like she reads a lot. And she's really not interested in anything beyond clubs, parties, and shopping. Sure she'll end up talking all about herself. Which I really can't see a lot of guys putting up with either. Who wants to have dinner with someone who talks about herself the whole time. What does she talk to Big about? I can't see him talking about any of his work nor would she be interested. Even if you take away her crazy behavior, there's still not much about that would make so many men want her.                                 

[Inquisitionist]

13 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

Without exception, my male friends who watched the show always categorized Miranda as the one they would want to talk to, Sam as the one they would want to have a good time with, Charlotte as the one they would want to marry, and Carrie as the one they would run the hell away from because she was BSC. 

Ah, yes, the old "Marry, fuck, talk, kill" game.  ;-)

[BookWoman56]

Some of them indicated that Miranda was also an option for marrying, precisely because she was intelligent and had a good career, although they thought Charlotte would be the best choice because she would, in their opinion, be a good mother as well. A lot of them liked Sam but felt that she had zero interest in a long-term relationship.  But never, even in extremely casual discussion of the show and its characters, did any of them state any circumstances under which they would have gotten involved with Carrie in an actual relationship, much less a long-term commitment.  She scared the hell out of them, what with the first-season insanity of her stalking Big in church, inventing a fake literary project to talk to Big's ex-wife, etc. That shit may seem funny/romantic on screen, but IRL, it freaks people out (at least people who have any sense).

[Melancholy]

Well, Carrie *did* strike out with a lot of guys. However, so did her better friends. And even though she dated and slept with lots of guys with expectations of a possible future with all of them and it all fell apart within an episode, it was hardly ever about her specific character flaws mentioned above. I can only think of the "freak episode" when her paramour rightly broke up with her for ripping apart his apartment to spy on him on her first night over.

I didn't find Carrie's relative success with men so unrealistic. I didn't like Bushnell's book- I preferred the show and why the show decided to explore long-term relationships for its leading ladies because that's more satisfying in a long term television series. Carrie's success with her main men made sense to a point. I found her relationship with Berger realistic. I think they both have similar neurotic personalities that are like magnets to each other- both turned to attraction at first and then, quickly turned around so they repel each other. I get Aiden to a point- mainly I buy him staying with Carrie through the first go-around but not the second. Aiden's whole personality was built around this quest to settle down with a woman and have a touchy-feel, emotional, storybook life. I get how he was primed to believe a girl who writes about relationships and also naval-gazes about love and feelings would be his soulmate. Yeah, she didn't care for his manly hobbies like wood-working or sports or hiking but there's plenty of guys out there who actually don't want a girlfriend who'll share in those hobbies. They feel even better about being a man if their girl is just consumed by feminine hobbies. It's just that Carrie's infidelity with Big really destroys any of these illusions- that she's up for a committed honest story-book life and that she's a compliment to his masculinity. It's just so funny when Carrie lies to Aiden about having an abortion because as she explains, "he was relieved like he still got to think of me in a certain way." Like, I believe that Aiden wanted to think of his fiancée in a pedestal, idealized, retro way but why didn't the affair torch that image completely?  

I don't buy Alexander. He was in the market for a far younger, beautiful, artiste who'd put up a show of being a spirited sophisticate but would really be a submissive helpmeet with the beauty and credentials to be a credit to him. Carrie certainly played that part and she was on her best behavior when they were NYC but with his money and looks and fame, he could have gotten a better model.

I have mixed feelings about Big. I get why he wanted her so badly and kept coming back for more. Chris Noth and SJP truly had chemistry. That's the big thing. Moreover, I don't think Big really makes rational choices. He's his own kind of head case. He's a Don Draper living the 1990s, early aughts. But of course, less effective a character partly because this show doesn't delve into Big's mind. Also, less relatable because at least Don Draper was trying to get to some happy, functional end that he could be proud of; Big didn't even want such an end but instead, just MOAR chaos and drama. So while Big may have surface impulses typical of a man of his class like "I'm not going to marry the batshit sex columnist who throws hamburgers at my fridge. I'm a corporate genius- I can *do better*", there's a underbelly that's more self-destructive and interested in actually chasing after the drama instead of avoiding it.  Aiden and Alexander were presented as rational men (the AAs). Berger and Big (the BBs) weren't rational at all. Berger and Big were both into "bits" and trying to live life like a movie. They liked Carrie because she also reveled in the "bits" Big's "bit" was larger than life- it was the cinematic chase over years. I also think he was looking for some kind of "unconditional love" and Carrie constantly coming back to him no matter what settled her as End Game for him. As a man gets older and after he's had his first bypass surgery, that matters a lot. It's just the authorially intended Happily Evah Aftah in the series finale and in the endings in both movies that grates. Like based on my theory, I do buy Big chasing after Carrie even after she harshly rejects him. But not, being so dead set on her that he flies to Paris and apologizes and promises that she's the one. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Melancholy

[Angeltoes]

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I'm incredibly sympathetic to Carrie when she goes to Big about her financial crisis.  I think it is a great scene.  

What bugged me about that scene was that Carrie had never been to his office before.  Seriously,  Miss Nosypants who spied on him and his mother?  She'd have found a way to drop by his office within two days of first meeting him.

[ByTor]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 12:05 AM, andromeda331 said:

I don't see talking to her about art, current events, politics, or even about books

Would talking about how she dated a politician who wanted to pee on her count? :)

[BBHN]

TrashtalkTV has a throwback article to Ring a Ding Ding, reinforcing just how horrible Carrie was in that episode...and just overall, by that point. Also, certain elements of the show haven't aged well either, but hey, it's still funny to read.

https://www.trashtalktv.com/03/24/trashtalkthrowback-sex-and-the-city-carries-dirge/423870/