Carrie

[Bella]

Love her, hate her, find her perplexing? Talk about her here.

[WhitneyWhit]

Shut up Carrie, because that pretty much says it all.

 

I never understood what was supposed to be so great about Carrie Bradshaw. To me, Carrie is the type of woman whom I wouldn't want to be friends with, and definitely wouldn't want to be. She's neurotic, selfish, immature, a drama queen, and Lord knows it's impossible to make her happy.

 

My disdain became hate during the Big affair. It would have been nice if she could have come out of that mess with some humility, instead, she created some warped reality where she was the victim and Natasha was the bad guy, and everyone went along with it.

 

To me, that marked a turning point in her character. I had always found her annoying, but she became unlikable following that. It was embarrassing to watch this supposedly smart, 30 something year old woman act the way she did. I think the writers thought it was cute, but I found it sad. I hated her reconciliation with Aiden. And again, no sense of reality because she didn't understand why he would still be hurt over how it ended the last time. Then came their (inevitable) breakup which led the apartment/finances debacle.

 

I never cared for any of her love interests, and I never cared if she ended up with Big or not. I never felt that he actually loved her, it always came off as more of him tolerating her until something else came along.  And as much as I didn't like Big, I was on his side in SATC 2, even though I didn't feel sorry for him. Carrie was finally married to the man she had sacrificed whatever dignity, self respect and common sense she ever had for, and yet wasn't happy because he committed the unforgivable sin of wanting to relax at home after working all day, rather than take his spoiled wife out so she could have "sparkle".

 

 

So yeah, sorry for the rant, but Carrie is definitely on the list of my all time disliked television characters.

[CleoCaesar]

And as much as I didn't like Big, I was on his side in SATC 2, even though I didn't feel sorry for him. Carrie was finally married to the man she had sacrificed whatever dignity, self respect and common sense she ever had for, and yet wasn't happy because he committed the unforgivable sin of wanting to relax at home after working all day, rather than take his spoiled wife out so she could have "sparkle"

 

The man brings home Japanese takeout and buys his wife a flatscreen TV so they can watch old movies together and she still pitches a fit and whines, "A piece of jewelry would have been nice." Shut UP, Carrie. (And even if you subscribe to the argument that Big essentially bought the TV for himself, it's still no reason to whine like that. Good grief, you are not a little princess.) Carrie, Charlotte, and Samantha were at their most wretched in SATC2. (Miranda was okay. I found her dorky enthusiasm about Abu Dhabi customs mildly amusing.)

[CleoCaesar]

Exactly. And it was just so...crass. I mean, I get that Samantha's always been, well, Samantha, but she was just really off-putting in that scene. She's an effing PR professional, and knows how to behave in appropriate situations. She reminded me of the woman she herself was horrified by in season 2 (?) who gave a blowjob under the dinner table to a random guy. Like, just cool it a little bit.

[Pickles Aplenty]

Carrie, Carrie, Carrie...there were times I liked her and even related to her, but most of the time I found her grating.  The fact that she was a spoiled baby-woman is what really turned me off.  The character seemed to get a lot of praise for being a strong, independent New York chick, when she was anything but, IMHO.  Sure, she had a career, but she also squealed like a little girl whenever a man bought her anything shiny and was absolutely terrible with her finances.  She also whined when things didn't go her way and constantly talked about herself.  I remember a line from Ally McBeal, when Georgia asked Ally what made her problems bigger than everyone else's, and Ally answers, "They're mine."  Reminds me of Carrie, but I think Ally was just a bit more self-aware than Ms. Bradshaw, so it wouldn't have worked on SatC.  Heh.

 

The affair with Big was selfish and awful, but it would have been forgivable if Carrie thought about anyone but herself for longer than two seconds.  The fact that it took an angry Charlotte make her think about Natasha being, like, a real person and someone's wife was ridiculous.  I know people can be in deep denial when it comes to having affairs and convince themselves that what they're doing isn't that bad, but Carrie was in her 30's at that point and should have had enough experience to know she was doing a shitty thing without needing her friends to tell her so.  The scene with Miranda in the bar reminding her about Aidan was just as ridiculous.  "Yes!  Thank you!  What about Aidan?"  Um, he's your boyfriend, isn't he?  Shouldn't you have thought of him yourself?  Carrie was at her worst during the affair, no doubt.  To this day, that arc is hard for me to watch.

 

I think I hold the unpopular opinion that the Final Showdown between Carrie and Natasha was not pro-Carrie, though.  I saw that scene differently, and it was all in the symbolism of Carrie wearing black and white while Natasha is wearing color.  Carrie had always talked about Natasha being the boring, "beige" girl who wasn't colorful enough for Big, but lo and behold, Natasha is looking lovely in pink while Carrie is the one who isn't colorful enough in her B&W dress.  I thought it symbolized how Carrie had become the boring, "beige" girl by taking the easy way out and having a cheap affair with a married man.  That, coupled with Natasha's "hell yeah!" speech about Carrie ruining her lunch and her marriage, made me think the writers were ultimately on Natasha's side and not Carrie's when all was said and done.  JMO.

 

However, there were a few times where I kind of liked Carrie.  I liked her when she insisted on Tatum O'Neill paying for the shoes that went missing at her party, and I liked her when she told Charlotte she didn't have to go through with marrying Trey if she didn't want to.  Saying, "We'll just hail a cab, and everyone else will just have to get over it" was one of her best moments.  I felt bad for her when Berger dumped her by card, but my sympathy evaporated with the "paper covers rock" thing, even if Charlotte was being obnoxious and sappy.  Let's see, anything else?  Um...I liked her when she wrote the peeing article about John Slattery, because he was being a total dick about the peeing thing, no pun intended.  He kind of deserved that.  I think that's about it. :P

[Inquisitionist]

The affair with Big was selfish and awful, but it would have been forgivable if Carrie thought about anyone but herself for longer than two seconds.  The fact that it took an angry Charlotte make her think about Natasha being, like, a real person and someone's wife was ridiculous.  I know people can be in deep denial when it comes to having affairs and convince themselves that what they're doing isn't that bad, but Carrie was in her 30's at that point and should have had enough experience to know she was doing a shitty thing without needing her friends to tell her so.  The scene with Miranda in the bar reminding her about Aidan was just as ridiculous.  "Yes!  Thank you!  What about Aidan?"  Um, he's your boyfriend, isn't he?  Shouldn't you have thought of him yourself?  Carrie was at her worst during the affair, no doubt.  To this day, that arc is hard for me to watch.

 

I'm on this train!  I actually felt some compassion for Carrie right up through All or Nothing.  OK, she's swept up by feelings, she feels exhilarated but also guilty, she "confesses" to Samantha, and when Aidan says "I love you" at the end, Carrie reciprocates, and it seems she may have come to her senses as she tells Big (who suddenly becomes a stalker) that they can't continue. 

 

So imagine my shock when the next episode, Running with Scissors, opens with Carrie blithely cavorting all over Manhattan with Big, lamenting that "Our affair, like our hotels, had gone from elegant with crystal to seedy with plastic cups."  This is where I lost all respect for Carrie.  She wasn't "in deep denial" thinking that "what they're doing isn't that bad."  She knew she was betraying Aidan, and abetting Big's betrayal of Natasha, and she did it anyway.

 

Don't even get me started on her invasion of Natasha's privacy -- doing it with Big in their marital bed, then hanging around to shower and loll about like she owned the place.  This was so awful I feel cheap and tawdry just writing about it. ::shudder:: 

 

ETA from the TWoP recap of RwS:

Carrie is in Big's bed; they got it on during his lunch hour while Natasha was at the Hamptons. Yeah, it really looks like Carrie is stopping this affair. Except for the part about her still having sex with Big. As he is getting dressed, Big tells her to take a shower and have something to eat if she wants.

 

So Big encouraged Carrie to stay in the apartment after he left.  Not that this excuses her actually staying, but I have to wonder: was he setting her up?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Inquisitionist

[lucindabelle]

I could relate to her too. She was dumped by post-it note. After a night of reconciliation sex. That stuff scars.

Carrie was written unevenly so sometimes she was a great friend and then other times she was maddeningly self-absorbed. I do remember feeling bad for her when nobody showed up to her birthday dinner and everyone left messages for her.

I don't know that being in your 30s (or older) makes people "wise" to their affairs. There's just too much evidence out there that it doesn't.

Carrie was wrong in the affair, but at least she didn't know Natasha. I did not understand her stalking Big's mother, his first wife, or Natasha-- I can understand her curiosity-- but it felt contrived to me (as in, writer-contrived).

But somehow I always bought her with Big.

 

I think the original idea for the series was for her to end with Mikhail Baryshnikov, because Candace Bushnell had a similar story, but the chemistry was just never there.

 

I did feel really sorry for her in Paris when she was trying to amuse herself and missing Big, and the Russian let go of her hand the minute she felt safe.

[Princess Sparkle]

My disdain became hate during the Big affair. It would have been nice if she could have come out of that mess with some humility, instead, she created some warped reality where she was the victim and Natasha was the bad guy, and everyone went along with it.

 

 

You know, I actually like Carrie unreservedly through most of the affair - Big was a big (no pun intended) deal to her, and I think he was a total creep in instigating the affair.  It always left a sour taste in my mouth that he followed her into the elevator, she's repeatedly saying "NO", and he's still coming on to her - ick,

 

But you are correct, I couldn't STAND how she acted towards Natasha after Natasha found out.  And then to compound it later with the whole "face" incident with Nina Katz where somehow Natasha was the bad guy for telling her friends about her husband's mistress - terrible.

 

That being said, I think her biggest asshole moment is in Belle of the Balls, where she, IN FRONT OF STEVE, after he had a testicle removed because of his cancer, says "I think balls are to men what purses are to women - just a sack, but we feel naked without them."  SERIOUSLY?  What a terrible thing to say, and it was played off like it was supposed to be funny. 

[Inquisitionist]

the whole "face" incident with Nina Katz where somehow Natasha was the bad guy for telling her friends about her husband's mistress

I thought Nina Katz dated Aidan, who unburdened himself about the number Carrie had done on him.  Did Natasha even enter into it?

[Princess Sparkle]

Oh crap, you're right, I forgot Nina Katz was Aiden - I have no idea why I thought it was related to Natasha...oops.  I whipped myself into a Carrie frenzy : )

[SpiritSong]

Carrie was a horrible friend; very judgmental to those she was supposed to care about. Slut shaming Samantha, expecting Charlotte to bail her out financially, getting angry whenever Miranda was honest with her...ugh.

And she was a crappy girlfriend, too. I never cared for Aiden, but he didn't deserve to be repeatedly dumped on. I have no idea why he wanted to be with her anyway. She must have been hell in the sack. I did like her chemistry with Berger, who I thought was the best of her many men. Too bad the writers made him into such a dick. I don't blame Big for running to Paris and California to get away from her.

Don't even get me started on her clothes. She did have some cute/beautiful outfits-the dress she wore to Natasha's women in the arts luncheon was gorgeous-but a lot of the time I thought she looked ridiculous.

[ChlcGirl]

Carrie was a horrible friend; very judgmental to those she was supposed to care about. Slut shaming Samantha, expecting Charlotte to bail her out financially, getting angry whenever Miranda was honest with her...ugh.

 

THANK YOU!  The way that Carrie treated her "friends" was my biggest problem with SatC.  Could she be a good friend?  Sure, on occasion she could pull some compassion and affection out of her ass.  But more often than not, Carrie was only a real friend when it suited her.  I'm not sure if this would have bothered me in another show, but when the show is held up as a model of women's friendships, it is downright appalling.

[Hanahope]

While I generally agree that most times Carrie acted awfully towards both friends and boyfriends, I have to admit, I did always feel a bit sorry for her when Big tells her he doesn't want to get married at all, to anyone, then turns around and marries Natasha a few months later.  I always wondered why Big didn't have the guts to tell Carrie why he really just didn't want to marry her (at least at that point in time).

[CleoCaesar]

I always wondered why Big didn't have the guts to tell Carrie why he really just didn't want to marry her (at least at that point in time).

 

My guess is because he knew Carrie quite literally stalked his ex-wife and assumed a false identity to have lunch with her, stalked his mother at church, threw hamburgers when having a tantrum, and was generally a shrieking drama queen. Anyone would be wary of dropping "I don't want to marry you (yet)" to someone like that.

 

Carrie was a horrible friend; very judgmental to those she was supposed to care about. Slut shaming Samantha, expecting Charlotte to bail her out financially, getting angry whenever Miranda was honest with her...ugh.

 

I'm not Carrie's biggest fan, but "slut shaming Samantha", really? Carrie was friends with her for years and was obviously fine with Samantha boning half of New York. The "walking in on a blowjob at work to random delivery guy" spoke far worse of Samantha than Carrie, IMO (seriously, lock the door, and don't imply afterwards that your friend who had to see that is uptight). "Slut-shaming" is far more serious of a thing than what Carrie did there.

[lucindabelle]

Big maybe didn't think he did want to get married again, but he knew he couldn't string along a girl like Natasha who's not up for drama. Not up for drama was Natasha's big plus.

But it turned out, big missed the drama, and missed Carrie,

[Inquisitionist]

he knew he couldn't string along a girl like Natasha who's not up for drama.

 

Getting engaged after a matter of months seems like a drastic step to evade a perception of stringing someone along.  Natasha was only 27 or so -- would she have been that desperate to marry a divorced man 20 years her senior so quickly?  The storyline always struck me as far-fetched and OOC for Big.   I get that they were trying to show that Big simply wasn't interested in committing to Carrie at that point, but the circumstances were too contrived for my taste.

[lucindabelle]

That's not how I took it. Natasha is a wealthy young girl who wouldn't stay in a relationship that wasn't heading somewhere seriously. She does not want to end up in her 30s, un married etc., like Charlotte. She's 27, not 22. She probably didn't expect to become engaged that soon but if she sensed that he wasn't the marrying kind, she was going to be out of there. I sense a ruthlessness, or, just goal oriented ness, that was not going to allow someone to play with her emotions and her timeline.

I didn't see it being about Carrie so much as a reaction to the bad breakup that he was with Natasha.

It made sense to me, and did remind me of the way we were, which cd arrive quoted at him.

Edited June 19, 2014 by lucindabelle

[Inquisitionist]

if she sensed that he wasn't the marrying kind, she was going to be out of there.

 

And I don't get why that wouldn't have been just fine with Big. 

[lucindabelle]

I think because Big was on the rebound, and when on the rebound, people often do things drastically different than they would otherwise, in an attempt to be a different person who isn't feeling pain. Drastic haircuts. Quitting jobs.

 

Being the marrying kind.

[Inquisitionist]

OK, but Big just didn't strike me as the rebound type.  He seemed to do just fine when Carrie broke things off with him the first time around.  And the way it ended the second time suggested to me he was pretty ambivalent about their relationship.  But MMV, and obviously does.  Thanks for sharing your perspective!

[Hanahope]

Yeah, Big didn't seem like he was interested in marriage at all, he just liked dating 'beautiful women' whether it be models, Carrie (sometimes) or young wealthy women, at least at first. And he was married once before, so he certainly knows what its like, in general. And he couldn't have been under any 'family pressure' since obviously he wasn't having kids with anyone. Whether that was a thought with Natasha, I don't recall, but certainly he wasn't having kids with Carrie (unless that's movie #3).  It does make one wonder whether he was more hurt by the break up with Carrie than she thought and he really did rebound into a different personality, at least temporarily. 

[andromeda331]

I don't know I think after dating Carrie, he probably saw Natasha as someone a lot easier to be with. No drama or stalking. After dating Carrie, I can see how he might try next dating someone so completely different then Carrie. I don't think he ever loved Natasha, but she was easier.

[Inquisitionist]

Dating, yes.  But rushing into marriage with her?  I still have a hard time buying that, especially since Big had been married before.  Even if he was totally smitten with Natasha at first, if she was pushing marriage that fast, I think the Big we know would have turned tail and fled at that point.

[andromeda331]

But rushing into marriage with her?  I still have a hard time buying that, especially since Big had been married before.  Even if he was totally smitten with Natasha at first, if she was pushing marriage that fast, I think the Big we know would have turned tail and fled at that point.

 

I agree on that but I don't see Natasha as the type to push him into marriage.  Given what she says to Carrie later that Big loved her, so it sounds like Natasha believed her boyfriend loved her and proposed. I just can't see Natasha marrying him unless she fully believed he loved her. But back to Big, I still don't know why he proposed after such a short time. Did he love her? Did he want to marry her?  I don't know. He didn't have to marry her since they only started dating a short time. So why did he?

[27bored]

 

I'm not Carrie's biggest fan, but "slut shaming Samantha", really? Carrie was friends with her for years and was obviously fine with Samantha boning half of New York. The "walking in on a blowjob at work to random delivery guy" spoke far worse of Samantha than Carrie, IMO (seriously, lock the door, and don't imply afterwards that your friend who had to see that is uptight). "Slut-shaming" is far more serious of a thing than what Carrie did there.

I agree. That whole episode where Samantha was so offended that Carrie was mortified by walking in on her giving a random guy a blowie in her office was so passive-aggressive. And let's not forget, Sam was with Richard at the time, cheating bastard that he was.

 

I saw Anchors Away last night and while I found Carrie to be charming and endearing, and I love the ode to NYC that the episode represented, I think they took the "NYC is my boyfriend" thing too far. When the sailor, something Leroy but I'll just say Daniel Sunjata since that's the actor who played him, said he didn't much care for NYC, she just up and left him, but not without a cheeky salute. Trick, please. I mean, I know you love your city with your VO about "aint nobody gonna talk shit about my boyfriend" and everything, but you felt the same way right before he invited you to the big Navy party. Fucking weirdo.

[ShellSeeker]

I agree. That whole episode where Samantha was so offended that Carrie was mortified by walking in on her giving a random guy a blowie in her office was so passive-aggressive. And let's not forget, Sam was with Richard at the time, cheating bastard that he was.

 

I completely agree too. For Samantha to get so bent out of shape about Carrie being embarrassed by witnessing Sam mid-casual BJ said more about Samantha than it did about Carrie. To me it played as a rare moment where Samantha was unsure of herself and the choices she made, and lashed out at Carrie.

 

There was some other underlying stuff at work in that episode though, because I believe that was the same one where Samantha was helping Carrie pick out an outfit to wear for the photo shoot for the cover of her book, and Carrie found her suggestions to all be wildly inappropriate. And I agreed. Everything she suggested would have been more fitting for boudoir shots. I remember that whole scene because it did have one of my favorite lines from Carrie. Samantha got all huffy and said she'd seen Carrie wearing more revealing outfits than the ones she'd picked out, and Carrie said, "Not lately you haven't! It's time for ladies of a certain age to cover it up!" I liked that she talked about that with Samantha, because IMO Samantha routinely dressed far too young during much of the series. Things that look great at 22 look ridiculous at 42. You can still wear stunning, sexy outfits at 42 (and 52, and beyond), but you can't just pretend that time is not marching on.

[27bored]

Now that you mention it, that made me think of two other things:

 

1) I felt like they stumbled onto some growth and maturity with Carrie in S5 that they more or less did away with in S6. Anyone else feel that way?

 

2) The whole thing about Carrie getting a book deal...was that realistic? I don't know, but I always thought to get a book deal, someone would have to write up a proposal and get a literary agent and all that. Then again, they did contact her editor to make a book out of her columns.

[Bella]

The whole thing about Carrie getting a book deal...was that realistic? I don't know, but I always thought to get a book deal, someone would have to write up a proposal and get a literary agent and all that. Then again, they did contact her editor to make a book out of her columns.

 

She may have already had an agent. And yes, some columnists do get approached. 

 

One of the more unrealistic things about the show was that we rarely saw Carrie interacting with others in her profession. Every writer I know networks to the extent his/her level of introversion allows. Carrie was pretty extroverted for a writer, and if she were a real person, she'd probably know several peers with agents, publishing deals, etc., etc., etc. In giving her the book deal, the show writers seem to assume that this all happened even though they didn't present it to the viewers.

[Inquisitionist]

I'm about to gag. Carrie is bitching to the others about Aidan taking over "her space" after "moving in with her."  Uh, Carrie, Aidan bought that place so technically, you were squatting with him.   Gratitude, much?

[BookWoman56]

 

Carrie is bitching to the others about Aidan taking over "her space" after "moving in with her."  Uh, Carrie, Aidan bought that place so technically, you were squatting with him.   Gratitude, much?

That incident makes me loathe Carrie and want to reach through my tv screen and bitchslap her. Aidan was generous enough and committed enough to her to buy both her apartment and the adjacent one, all so she wouldn't have to move because she had no way of buying when her building went co-op. Yet when Aidan moves into what is technically now his apartment, Carrie acts as if she's doing him this huge favor by letting him share some of her precious closet space. IIRC, this is also the episode where Aidan's dog ends up eating a pair of shoes that Carrie had forgotten she owned, and she threw a hissy fit as if he'd deliberately destroyed a family heirloom. I understand being annoyed that a pet has destroyed something you love, but when it's something  you have literally forgotten you own, I can't muster much sympathy. And no, she displayed not the slightest bit of gratitude that Aidan's generosity saved her from the reality check that she couldn't afford to buy the apartment and so needed to find something she actually could afford.

 

Maybe this episode was foreshadowing the selfishness Carrie displayed when she and Aidan finally did break up for good, and she ended up guilting Charlotte into giving up her own engagement ring so Carrie could have a down payment. It was as if the audience was supposed to give Carrie credit for having turned down money from Samantha and Miranda, and just accept that of course Charlotte should give up her engagement ring. That just bugged on so many levels, not least of which was that the financial situation aside, Charlotte might have wanted to hang onto that ring and save it for the daughter she wanted to have. It's one thing to decide that you no longer want a physical reminder of a marriage that has ended; it's quite a different proposition to have someone who claims to be a good friend show up uninvited on your doorstep, harass you about not having volunteered to lend her a serious amount of cash, and then criticize you for still wearing a ring from a marriage that recently ended. That sequence of events does not, in my mind, automatically lead to "Oh, yes, I insist on giving you my engagement ring so you can buy the apartment, when you've been so careless about your personal finances." It should have resulted in "Bitch, sell your $40K worth of shoes to someone or actually move into an apartment you can afford, get your financial act together, and pay your own damn way."

 

This was not Carrie forgetting to bring money for lunch and having to borrow a small amount of cash or credit for a couple of days; this was serious money that Charlotte was in no way obligated to fork over. Whether Charlotte had money on hand after the divorce isn't the issue; the real issue was that Carrie had been financially irresponsible for many years, and having to give up that apartment should have been the logical consequence of those actions. The writers, OTOH, seemed to regard the situation as Carrie somehow deserving to be bailed out of her own mess, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why, other than they didn't want to have to build a different set for a new, cheaper apartment.

[BookWoman56]

In the restaurant scene where they are discussing the finances, I saw nothing wrong with how Charlotte treated Carrie. She did not want to offer money, so she said nothing. Was sucking on her straw the mature way to handle the situation? Perhaps not, but still much more mature than sitting there expecting your friends to bail you out because you've spent all your money on designer shoes and the big bad bank won't give you a loan because you have no savings and bad credit. I don't really think Charlotte had any good options in that setting. If she flatly said, "No, I will not lend you money," then that would have sounded as if she didn't approve of Samantha and Miranda offering to lend money. There was no reason for her to walk out; there's a difference between being so offended (rightly or wrongly) by a topic of discussion that you feel you can't stay, and sitting there wondering when two of your friends got their lobotomies, because they're falling over themselves to rescue a third friend from her own stupidity.

 

I don't fault Carrie because she had financial problems; it can happen to anyone through a combination of circumstances. I do fault her for throwing a pity party for herself after Aidan left, during which she seemed shocked that Aidan expected her to buy the apartment to reimburse him or else move out so he could sell it to someone who could afford it, She behaved as if she was entitled to that apartment, even though she did not have the means to buy it and frankly IRL would not have qualified for the loan even with the down payment from Charlotte. This is a sore point for me, partly because I work for a very large bank, in the mortgage area, specifically in the area dealing with what happens when people default on their mortgages because they lose their jobs or their spending habits get in the way of making their mortgage payments. I've heard too many horror stories from parents/siblings/friends who co-signed loans for family members or friends, or loaned them cash they really couldn't afford to lose, and then had their own credit damaged when the person defaulted, or they needed the money back and couldn't get it. It sounds harsh, but one of the most critical pieces of financial advice banks give to parents/siblings/friends, is this: If your family member or friend doesn't qualify for a loan without borrowing from you or getting you to co-sign, there's a good reason for that. Don't co-sign or lend money on a mortgage unless you can afford to pay off the mortgage yourself or lose the money without any strain on  your own finances. 

 

In Carrie's case, she didn't have the down payment on her own; she had bad credit; the bank rightly saw her as a poor credit risk. That's the point at which many people would face reality and set up a budget, stick to it and within a few years, be able to buy a home. But Carrie felt about the apartment the same way she did about Big during their initial relationship: she wanted what she wanted on her schedule, no matter what. Of the people Carrie knew who were willing to lend her money, Big was the only one who could afford to take the loss if Carrie never repaid him. Instead of accepting his freely given offer, she manipulated Charlotte into doing something against her own best interests, and that Charlotte had already stated she was not comfortable doing. What Carrie did to Charlotte wasn't being a friend accepting a favor; it was being a user.

[andromeda331]

Maybe this episode was foreshadowing the selfishness Carrie displayed when she and Aidan finally did break up for good, and she ended up guilting Charlotte into giving up her own engagement ring so Carrie could have a down payment. It was as if the audience was supposed to give Carrie credit for having turned down money from Samantha and Miranda, and just accept that of course Charlotte should give up her engagement ring. That just bugged on so many levels, not least of which was that the financial situation aside, Charlotte might have wanted to hang onto that ring and save it for the daughter she wanted to have. It's one thing to decide that you no longer want a physical reminder of a marriage that has ended; it's quite a different proposition to have someone who claims to be a good friend show up uninvited on your doorstep, harass you about not having volunteered to lend her a serious amount of cash, and then criticize you for still wearing a ring from a marriage that recently ended. That sequence of events does not, in my mind, automatically lead to "Oh, yes, I insist on giving you my engagement ring so you can buy the apartment, when you've been so careless about your personal finances." It should have resulted in "Bitch, sell your $40K worth of shoes to someone or actually move into an apartment you can afford, get your financial act together, and pay your own damn way."

 

 

I completely agree. If I was Charlotte I probably would have said that last part to her instead of forking over my engagement ring. I hated the way Carrie criticized her for still wearing the ring. And why shouldn't she? Its hers and part of her history. I've know plenty of women who still whole on to their old engagement rings and for some them it did take some time after the break up to take off the ring. 

    But what really makes me angry about this scene is Carrie finally realizes how broke she is and how much she spent on all her shoes. But she expects other people to bail her out of it. She never considered selling her shoes, getting a second job, getting a different apartment or doing any of the things normal people do when they suddenly are in financial problems. She could even had asked to move in with one of her friends until she was able to save up enough money for a new apartment. Nope, none of this. No she instead decides to guilt Charlotte into give up her engagement ring. Heaven forbid Carrie take responsibility for herself to get herself out of the mess. That I would have liked to have seen that instead. 

[Inquisitionist]

Heaven forbid Carrie take responsibility for herself to get herself out of the mess.

 

Well, she did limit herself to a $5 cab ride in getting over to Charlotte's.  ::eyeroll::

 

I do fault her for throwing a pity party for herself after Aidan left, during which she seemed shocked that Aidan expected her to buy the apartment to reimburse him or else move out so he could sell it to someone who could afford it, She behaved as if she was entitled to that apartment, even though she did not have the means to buy it and frankly IRL would not have qualified for the loan even with the down payment from Charlotte.

 

The sense of entitlement was galling, and frankly, I hated that the writers waved a magic wand for her to stay in that apartment. 

 

but still much more mature than sitting there expecting your friends to bail you out because you've spent all your money on designer shoes and the big bad bank won't give you a loan because you have no savings and bad credit.

 

To be fair, I don't think Carrie was expecting this -- she seemed very surprised that MIranda and Samantha would offer her the money (or that they'd even have it to offer).    Otherwise, I thought BookWoman56's post was spot on!

 

P.S. I'd never offer a friend that kind of money in front of other friends.  Sheesh, talk about making an awkward situation worse.

[ChlcGirl]

All of this discussion about the apartment/engagement ring stuff reminds me how much I hated Carrie by that season.  She was just such a selfish asshole.

[Maharincess]

That incident makes me loathe Carrie and want to reach through my tv screen and bitchslap her. Aidan was generous enough and committed enough to her to buy both her apartment and the adjacent one, all so she wouldn't have to move because she had no way of buying when her building went co-op. Yet when Aidan moves into what is technically now his apartment, Carrie acts as if she's doing him this huge favor by letting him share some of her precious closet space. IIRC, this is also the episode where Aidan's dog ends up eating a pair of shoes that Carrie had forgotten she owned, and she threw a hissy fit as if he'd deliberately destroyed a family heirloom. I understand being annoyed that a pet has destroyed something you love, but when it's something you have literally forgotten you own, I can't muster much sympathy. And no, she displayed not the slightest bit of gratitude that Aidan's generosity saved her from the reality check that she couldn't afford to buy the apartment and so needed to find something she actually could afford.

Maybe this episode was foreshadowing the selfishness Carrie displayed when she and Aidan finally did break up for good, and she ended up guilting Charlotte into giving up her own engagement ring so Carrie could have a down payment. It was as if the audience was supposed to give Carrie credit for having turned down money from Samantha and Miranda, and just accept that of course Charlotte should give up her engagement ring. That just bugged on so many levels, not least of which was that the financial situation aside, Charlotte might have wanted to hang onto that ring and save it for the daughter she wanted to have. It's one thing to decide that you no longer want a physical reminder of a marriage that has ended; it's quite a different proposition to have someone who claims to be a good friend show up uninvited on your doorstep, harass you about not having volunteered to lend her a serious amount of cash, and then criticize you for still wearing a ring from a marriage that recently ended. That sequence of events does not, in my mind, automatically lead to "Oh, yes, I insist on giving you my engagement ring so you can buy the apartment, when you've been so careless about your personal finances." It should have resulted in "Bitch, sell your $40K worth of shoes to someone or actually move into an apartment you can afford, get your financial act together, and pay your own damn way."

This was not Carrie forgetting to bring money for lunch and having to borrow a small amount of cash or credit for a couple of days; this was serious money that Charlotte was in no way obligated to fork over. Whether Charlotte had money on hand after the divorce isn't the issue; the real issue was that Carrie had been financially irresponsible for many years, and having to give up that apartment should have been the logical consequence of those actions. The writers, OTOH, seemed to regard the situation as Carrie somehow deserving to be bailed out of her own mess, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why, other than they didn't want to have to build a different set for a new, cheaper apartment.

Sorry for quoting this very long comment but I'm on my phone and can't quote just the part I wanted.

Why the hell would Charlotte want to give her future daughter and engagement ring she received from another man?!

That would be so damn tacky.

I originally came here to say that I was watching a Seinfeld repeat the other day and noticed that New Yorker Elaine Benes was wearing a SCRUNCHIE! I watched a few more and paid more attention and noticed she wears them a lot.

Haha Carrie!

Edited July 31, 2014 by Maharincess

[WendyCR72]

Why the hell would Charlotte want to give her future daughter and engagement ring she received from another man?!
That would be so damn tacky.

 

Yeah, that's...kind of icky.

 

At the same time, I don't think Charlotte was obligated to give Carrie ANYTHING, and Carrie could have sold her precious clothes or shoes if she needed money. Or, better yet, do what the rest of us poor slobs do and, perhaps, get a second job for more income. There's an idea!

[Sun-Bun]

Yeah, that's...kind of icky.

At the same time, I don't think Charlotte was obligated to give Carrie ANYTHING, and Carrie could have sold her precious clothes or shoes if she needed money. Or, better yet, do what the rest of us poor slobs do and, perhaps, get a second job for more income. There's an idea!

Thank you!!!

That entire episode was one of the rare times when I really wanted to bitchslap Carrie to Brooklyn and back. Entitled much??

Your rich friends don't owe you shit, especially when you're in severe debt thanks to your own stupid bloodlust for wildly overpriced designer shoes. The way she shamed Charlotte for not offering to give her money was so damned inappropriate and rude.

I remember shouting at the tv that episode, "Get a second job and pay your debts down yourself, you lazy idiot!!"

((or maybe go find that French dude who left her a $1000 tip on her nightstand for their hot date))

[Inquisitionist]

Well, she did get Vogue to offer her $4 a word --- and then proceeded to write one article.

[Hanahope]

I know I would have liked Carrie more if she had at least made some effort to raise the money herself before taking money from any of her friends if she had.  Put some of her designer shoes and clothes on commission.  Work a little more.  Spend a little less.  Something to show that she was at least trying to raise the money.

[BookWoman56]

On the issue of Charlotte hanging on to the ring with the idea of someday giving it to her daughter, it's fairly common for people to keep an engagement ring from a marriage that ended, and then have the stone re-set into a different setting, or turned into a necklace rather than a ring. To me, that makes more sense than trying to sell it, when you're only going to get a tiny fraction of what the ring cost. While I can see that it might be considered weird for Charlotte to keep the engagement ring as a ring and give it to a child she had as the result of another marriage, I personally don't see anything wrong with turning it into a different piece of jewelry and giving it to her daughter.

 

Of course, given how the episode turned out, Charlotte wouldn't have to face that issue.

 

I also thought it was not appropriate for Miranda and Sam to offer money in front of the entire group. Doing that put Charlotte in an awkward situation, where if she didn't make the same offer, she would seem as if she wasn't as good of a friend as they were. But the whole situation could have been avoided if Carrie had just flatly announced that she was moving out of her apartment into something she could afford, rather than bringing up Big's having offered her the money, which in turn seemed to make Miranda and Sam offer money so Carrie wouldn't be tempted to accept Big's offer. For whatever reason, they seemed to feel protective, as if Big would somehow exploit the situation. While I don't like Big, I can't see him lending Carrie money and then demanding sex/relationship status with her because of the loan. That said, I don't think Carrie deserved to be bailed out of her own mess, and hate what the writers did with that arc. Showing that you have good friends you can rely on in a true emergency is fine, but instead the show made it seem as if Charlotte needed to be taught a lesson of what it means to be a good friend, which in SATC-land appears to be giving Carrie whatever she wants. And here's the thing: IMO, being a good friend sometimes means you have to refuse to give  your friend what she wants, and instead tell your friend uncomfortable truths, such as that it's not your responsibility to lend her money so she can keep a specific apartment.

[tobia]

I feel like the entire fiasco with Big in the first movie is Carrie's fault for being a terrible, selfish fiancee who never bothered listening to her fiance when he told her repeatedly that he didn't want a big, gaudy, highly public wedding, because damn if Carrie was going to consider anyone else's needs, wants, or feelings when she could think about her (not that great, IMO) dress.

Edited August 4, 2014 by tobia

[WendyCR72]

That wedding gown Carrie wore was the opposite of stylish, IMO. It was butt UGLY. And what was with the feather or whatever it was sticking out of the veil? Yuck. She did look better and classier in the suit she ultimately married Big in.

[Inquisitionist]

Again, Charlotte didn’t offer an apology but told Carrie that she had been right.  And finally, when Charlotte did offer her the ring, Carrie declined not only once, but twice.  Charlotte had to talk her into it and, just like when she was considering taking the money from Big, she made it clear that it was a loan and that she would pay Charlotte back.  Again, if she was expecting it, why didn’t she just snap up Charlotte’s offer right away?  I also give Carrie credit for making it very clear to Charlotte that it was going to take some time to pay it back and that she should think very clearly about whether to loan the money.

 

Everything you write here is probably accurate to the letter, and yet... I can't help feeling that there was a lot of manipulation going on by the writers, if not by Carrie herself.  And the end of it all, the result is that Carrie guilts Charlotte into loaning her money for a downpayment that was still not going to be sufficient for Carrie to finance that co-op purchase, Carrie doesn't sell any of her silly shoes or otherwise have any noticeable change in lifestyle, and though we see Carrie promising to pay Charlotte back, we never get any closure on whether and how this actually happens.  It all felt too neat and tidy, with Carrie once again being rescued from her own foolishness by overly accommodating friends (and writers).  I think that's what stick in many craws around here.

 

This indicates to me she’s still writing a monthly column for Vogue.

 

Possibly, but why should we have to guess about this?  A little more realism about Carrie's financial realities would have bought the character substantial goodwill, IMO.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Inquisitionist

[Bella]

I think this whole discussion points to an overarching problem I have with the entire series, as embodied by Carrie - it became less realistic and more "about itself" as it went along.

 

For example, what happened to the Carrie who wrote the column and introduced herself that way? Yes, this got carried through it tiny pieces, especially with the opening question, but Carrie's work became less and less of what we saw. Was it also less and less of her identity? We can't know, because she's a fictional character; writers carry lots of backstory in their brains but can't possibly share it all. 

 

Those Geico billboards that are on buses and the like, that just have the gecko and the name of the company? If you just arrived in the U.S. from another country and saw those, would you have any idea what the product is? I feel like this happens on TV shows - they become too self-referential. I think that happened on S&tC, and I think Carrie's character lost a lot of dimension over time as this occurred.

[Inquisitionist]

You write that Carrie guilted Charlotte into loaning her the money as if it's fact.  It isn't; it's your opinion.

 

OK, the writers guilted Charlotte into it.  :-)  It was still a Deus Ex Carrie that didn't sit well with me.

 

I'm getting the feeling that the majority of the posters in this forum just want to trash Carrie

 

I don't think anyone here "just" wants to do anything.  There are strong feelings about Carrie, but hearing other viewpoints is always fun and occasionally instructive!

[Bella]

Carrie certainly is a polarizing character.

 

So, putting on my mod hat for a brief moment, I just want to note that I italicized the word "character" for a reason. We're not talking about a real person here, so it's not worth getting heated about her. 

 

All opinions are welcome, btw. It's okay if there's a majority thinking one way or the other. It's okay to be in the minority. It's all okay, as long as we treat each other with respect. [/mod hat]

[ridethemaverick]

I completely agree too. For Samantha to get so bent out of shape about Carrie being embarrassed by witnessing Sam mid-casual BJ said more about Samantha than it did about Carrie. To me it played as a rare moment where Samantha was unsure of herself and the choices she made, and lashed out at Carrie.

There was some other underlying stuff at work in that episode though, because I believe that was the same one where Samantha was helping Carrie pick out an outfit to wear for the photo shoot for the cover of her book, and Carrie found her suggestions to all be wildly inappropriate. And I agreed. Everything she suggested would have been more fitting for boudoir shots. I remember that whole scene because it did have one of my favorite lines from Carrie. Samantha got all huffy and said she'd seen Carrie wearing more revealing outfits than the ones she'd picked out, and Carrie said, "Not lately you haven't! It's time for ladies of a certain age to cover it up!" I liked that she talked about that with Samantha, because IMO Samantha routinely dressed far too young during much of the series. Things that look great at 22 look ridiculous at 42. You can still wear stunning, sexy outfits at 42 (and 52, and beyond), but you can't just pretend that time is not marching on.

So much word to your last paragraph. I think that red suit with the gold brooch that Sam wore at the cancer doctor's office was the sexiest thing she's ever worn on the show.

27bored, your post cracked me up. Carrie sure was a weirdo. The way she acted (and looked) in Atlantic City is another example of her weirdness/clinginess, but this time Charlotte was her victim. And on her birthday, no less. Shut up, Carrie.

Edited August 5, 2014 by ridethemaverick

[CleoCaesar]

I liked that she talked about that with Samantha, because IMO Samantha routinely dressed far too young during much of the series. Things that look great at 22 look ridiculous at 42. You can still wear stunning, sexy outfits at 42 (and 52, and beyond), but you can't just pretend that time is not marching on.

 

Seems like they commented on just that in the second movie with Samantha and Miley Cyrus (?) wearing an identical dress. Even Sam seemed to understand that what she herself was wearing was not age-appropriate.

 

I'll always stand by my opinion that Carrie dressed like a hobo bag lady 90% of the time, but I never I got a sense that she was obsessed with looking younger than she was.

[Mozelle]

Of the people Carrie knew who were willing to lend her money, Big was the only one who could afford to take the loss if Carrie never repaid him. Instead of accepting his freely given offer, she manipulated Charlotte into doing something against her own best interests, and that Charlotte had already stated she was not comfortable doing. What Carrie did to Charlotte wasn't being a friend accepting a favor; it was being a user.

 

Oh, this simply is not true. Carrie did take the check that Big offered to her. When she later met with the girls, they talked about it, and Miranda (I think because it was an offer from Big, who Miranda didn't like) guilted Carrie. Miranda put it out there that Carrie shouldn't take Big's money because Miranda had decided that it was a check with strings attached. 

 

It was Miranda's big mouth that then got the ball rolling with Samantha and Miranda offering to give Carrie the money. 

[Maherjunkie]

That may have been her feeling but no one forced Carrie, I think taking Big's check would be far more prudent than accepting a loan from non-millionaire women who couldn't take the hit as much if something went wrong.