S05.E06: The Icicle Cometh

[Cthulhudrew]

Could Caitlin and Thomas' dialogue when discussing her mother have included any more "cold" idioms? "She's always been cold to me." "Maybe she's a little chilly." Why not "She's got ice in her veins" or "I always had to walk on thin ice around her" or "She left us out in the cold." C'mon, writers, you could have (ice) packed that sequence better than that.

Cicada's growly Christian Bale Batman voice is annoying.

[blugirlami21]

This episode was nearly unwatchable for me. I don't care about Killer Frost. Not one whit. A whole episode about this stupid storyline was unbearable. It has never made any sense and I hate that they continue to treat KF like she's a dissociative personality. Either Caitlin is Killer Frost or she isn't. Why does having ice powers even mean that you are evil? Meta powers that have nothing to do with the mind have not turned anyone else evil. Why is Caitlin any different? I just dont understand why she just cant be Caitlin with ice powers and be done with it.

I felt bad for Raelyn. Cicada seems more evil than our usual villains. He's on the same level as the thinker where he's killing innocent people who haven't really done anything wrong. I dont see how them gaining meta powers is any different than him gaining the power to nullify them. Its merely circumstance.  I just hate when the villain is a hypocrite. And his nurse/doctor friend isn't any better than he is.

I do like that Nora has come around to Iris but the complete 180 did seem a little disingenuous.  

God I hope we're done with Killer Frost for awhile cause I cant do another whole episode of it.

Edited November 22, 2018 by blugirlami21

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Caitlin did her own version of Iceman's ice surfing back in S3, so the team isn't too surprised that Icicle has similar "flying" ability.

Ah, thanks - I think I've blocked most of S3 from my memory, it's my least favourite Flash season, lol

[Chyromaniac]

2 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Cicada's growly Christian Bale Batman voice is annoying.

To me the whole performance feels like Rorschach from the Watchmen- just an almost comically over the top portrayal of “nutjob vigilante.”

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Rose Red said:

This episode fell flat for me and I blame DP's acting...she might actually be getting worse

I've never seen Kyle Secor in anything else, but here as Thomas/Icicle he was bland for me. Don't know if it was the writing, direction, or acting; or all three. He just wasn't compelling.

 

3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

... I just dont understand why she just cant be Caitlin with ice powers and be done with it....

I don't get it either. They had actually set that up at the end of Season 3, and for whatever reason they had chucked that plan by the time Season 4 started. Somebody decided Killer Frost needed to stay. ::sigh::

[DearEvette]

This episode was one big info dump/course correct on the convoluted Killer Frost mythology in the show.  I do think the show needed to deal with the towering problem that was Killer Frost.  I just don't think they did a great job of it tbh. 

I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner with the character and did a clumsy job of pulling themselves out of it. They want Caitlin to have meta powers, they want to keep her as part of Team Flash and they want to keep the KF character.  So they had to make all that happen.  So they created  this origin story to fix all the stuff that the fans have brought to their attention that haven't hung together with the  KF storyline over the last two seasons. 

And also because they want to keep Caitlin and KF as part of Team Flash, they quickly rehab her image by having KF show up, save the day and call everyone on Team Flash her family. And with that it feels like they are just going sweep it under the rug that for half of S3 she basically helped Savitar terrorize them and was an accomplice in Harry's murder. And turn her into a meta that works with the team and they'll all just trust her to her have their backs with no trust issues whatsoever. ... BYGONES!  Fine.  Whatever.

Usually I would love for a show with a cast of this size to mix them up in different A, B and C plots from ep to ep.  Legends of Tomorrow is excellent at this sort of character shuffling. The Flash has never been good at doing this because Barry is the center they all revolve around.  So when they do go that route, as in this ep, it feels awkward in places.

Of the three plots, I will say, astonishingly, the Cecile/Ralph subplot worked the best.  I like how they've been writing Ralph this season.  1,000x better than last season.

 Nora is either zero or 100, yea? The girl has no middle ground.  I am glad that she is no longer freezing out Iris and I am glad to see them working together, but it was a bit jarring to have Nora about face on Iris so quickly.  And tbh this felt like busy work to give the actors something to do and  Sherloque is just useless.  Really a waste of TC.

In  the A plot, Barry (of all people) felt rather wallpapery  in this episode.  You really could have taken him out of the A-plot and not have missed a beat on anything.  Cisco was the MVP here. 

All in all, this is the weakest ep of the season so far, imo.

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I've never seen Kyle Secor in anything else, but here as Thomas/Icicle he was bland for me. Don't know if it was the writing, direction, or acting; or all three. He just wasn't compelling.

I used to really like him when he was on Homicide. His performances in most everything I've seen since (including Veronica Mars) have been pretty so-so for me.

[adora721]

This a really good piece on the Caitlin Snow problem.

And another article.

Edited November 22, 2018 by adora721

[Quark]

Meh episode. Caitlin really doesn't hold my interest anymore. 

Cecile was great though.

[legaleagle53]

21 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Of the three plots, I will say, astonishingly, the Cecile/Ralph subplot worked the best.  I like how they've been writing Ralph this season.  1,000x better than last season.

Cecile/Ralph is the team-up that I never knew I wanted until I saw this episode.  And I'm glad that we got clarification that Cecile's power has been modified from telepathy to empathy -- she can't read minds anymore, but she can sense others' emotions by feeling them herself.  As Ralph said, she's now the Counselor Troi of Team Flash.

Edited November 23, 2018 by legaleagle53

[adora721]

On 11/21/2018 at 3:11 PM, ursula said:

They laid the groundwork then chickened out at the execution probably because DP wasn't the original actor for the role. They wanted someone closer to Harrison's age then DP was cast as a favour and they ended up retooling the character. Again. And again. And again. And again. And...

What's interesting is that there's an article that implies that Cait's story might have been different if it weren't for Robbie Amell opting to leave to pursue his movie career. There are no specifics in the article about what would have been different, however.

"Throughout the season, the show set up the “fire and ice” relationship that Ronnie and Caitlin would one day have, once she turned into Killer Frost. However, Robbie Amell, who played Ronnie, opted to leave the show to pursue his movie career. Needing to shift direction, the writers allowed the lovebirds a moment of happiness with an impromptu wedding ceremony. Then they killed him off in the second season premiere....

No longer able to pursue the story they had clearly intended to develop for her character, they needed to come up with a new plan."

[DearEvette]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:25 PM, Lady Calypso said:

So her story with her dad didn't interest me initially but it was something I was hoping would be good. And, for the first fifteen minutes, it was. But it was so totally obvious that Thomas wasn't really Thomas. It was obvious that Cisco was right and I was irritated that Caitlin was buying everything that Thomas was selling. There WERE holes in his story and nobody could see it right away. 

You know the more I think about this, the more I agree with Cisco that there are so many holes in the story that I am not sure they haven't raised more questions.

For instance, If Thomas gave Caitlin the same experimental stuff he gave himself, and he was degenerating, why wouldn't he also assume that Caitlin might be facing some sort of the same side effects but never tried to tell her?

Also, he was just hanging out in a lab for 20 years hoping she'd find his clues and come find him? 

And  trust that she'd pick up ton cryptic clues in the periodic table?  What, a letter was too easy?  I mean, find a lawyer, write a letter tell them to deliver it to your daughter when she turns 18 or something.

Also Wells just gave this guy complete video access into STAR labs?  Sure, STAR labs has zero security but even that is just too much.  Considering it would have Eobard Thawne by that time, not Wells who constructed STAR labs, since the real Wells and his wife came up with idea right when Eobard was trapped in the past and swapped bodies and Caitlin's father's retreat pre-dated that by a couple years.  Given how  shady Eobard was y'all think he really was allowing anybody video into STAR labs?

Also how very convenient that the child Daddy Snow abandoned 20 years ago would end up working in... STAR labs!

And yes I know Barry practically wears a sign that  says "I am the Flash" given how many people he's told about himself, but also given how much stuff they discuss and do in STAR labs now, you'd think they'd have been a little more nervous about all the secrets this man must have learned about them.  Barry  might have paused a bit at the thought that this stranger would know he's The Flash.

And finally, for someone who was holed up in a dark lab, with only K-rations for 20 years he looked remarkably fleshy.  I mean contestants on Survivor  look emaciated after 15 weeks.

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

And yes I know Barry practically wears a sign that  says "I am the Flash" given how many people he's told about himself, but also given how much stuff they discuss and do in STAR labs now, you'd think they'd have been a little more nervous about all the secrets this man must have learned about them.  Barry  might have paused a bit at the thought that this stranger would know he's The Flash.

Aw man, does Thomas know? Because they were actually doing fairly well with not having every new person learn The Flash's "secret" identity so far.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

Aw man, does Thomas know? Because they were actually doing fairly well with not having every new person learn The Flash's "secret" identity so far.

I don't see how Thomas wouldn't know, since he's been spying on Caitlin for years while waiting for her to find him.

[Kate45]

On 11/21/2018 at 11:53 PM, DearEvette said:

This episode was one big info dump/course correct on the convoluted Killer Frost mythology in the show.  I do think the show needed to deal with the towering problem that was Killer Frost.  I just don't think they did a great job of it tbh. 

 

I agree completely. It was just a boring overly-convoluted way to do it, that left us with more questions than answers.

Also, in all honesty, Barry shouldn’t have been in the A plot. It should have been Caitlin, Cisco, and maybe Ralph or even Wells. Both have been much more involved with this Caitlin storyline, and many of the leaps we were expected to take would have been much easier to accept, imo. 

[SevenStars]

7 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I agree completely. It was just a boring overly-convoluted way to do it, that left us with more questions than answers.

Also, in all honesty, Barry shouldn’t have been in the A plot. It should have been Caitlin, Cisco, and maybe Ralph or even Wells. Both have been much more involved with this Caitlin storyline, and many of the leaps we were expected to take would have been much easier to accept, imo. 

Agree. Barry really seems like the unnecessary third wheel and it made an already boring execution of a tedious story worst. 

[Duke Silver]

I can't even say I'm a regular viewer of The Flash; more like "I watch most episodes and pay zero attention beyond that."  Is the Caitlin actress usually this bad?  I find her utterly unconvincing.  *crawls back into hole to obsess over shows he actually cares about*

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

I can't even say I'm a regular viewer of The Flash; more like "I watch most episodes and pay zero attention beyond that."  Is the Caitlin actress usually this bad?  I find her utterly unconvincing.  *crawls back into hole to obsess over shows he actually cares about*

As a regular viewer, I will say no, sometimes she is worst. 

I have never watch DP in anything else, so I don't know if it's the writing that makes her not even try, if she is being lazy in her acting cause, I have seen talented actors act badly simply because they don't like the material they are being giving. So with DP,  I don't know the reason, all I know is that she is usually bad. 

[Trini]

And another thing that annoyed me in this one: Jitters is still selling drinks named after that speedster that murdered a bunch of CCPD officers in Jitters; instead that could have been a good time to casually mention a new drink named after the 'dearly departed' hero, Vibe. (Can Cisco please have something this year?!)

[adora721]

4 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

Is the Caitlin actress usually this bad?  I find her utterly unconvincing. 

According to her IMDB page, she last won an acting award in 2014 at the London Independent Film Festival; so, she was capable of good acting at one point.  I've only seen her before in the movie, "Sky High", and she was decent enough. I think she just doesn't try anymore for some reason. She even admitted in an interview that she's not good at acting, "not an expert".

I think your perspective intrigues me as a non-regular viewer because another poster (who I believe is a regular viewer) has said that Candice Patton (Iris) doesn't act well while everyone else does. However, Candice is the only woman on the show who's won an acting award for the Flash so far.

[Kate45]

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

I think your perspective intrigues me as a non-regular viewer because another poster (who I believe is a regular viewer) has said that Candice Patton (Iris) doesn't act well while everyone else does. However, Candice is the only woman on the show who's won an acting award for the Flash so far.

Whoever said that Candice doesn’t know how to act is clearly mistaken. The amount of subtlety in her performances is amazing. Something outside of actual talent is driving their belief that Candice can’t act. The problem has often been that the material doesn’t match her talent. The material has just now starting to close the gap to attempt to match her talent. 

Danielle’s performance was especially bad in 5x06, but her mannerisms have been quite annoying to me this season. I have always thought Danielle was the weakest of the younger actors, but it was less noticeable in season 1. In season 5, the difference is very noticeable. She has the most acting experience, so I did expect her to be stronger than everyone else, but I was surprised to see that she was not at all above the other younger actors. 

[Al Herkimer]

I have denigrated Patton's acting in the past, and was pleased that she didn't feature much in this episode.  However I've never seen her in anything else and I have a strong aversion to Iris.  I have come to understand that this is an unpopular opinion in this forum.  Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show.  Her acting in this episode seemed exceptional to me, especially on a show where the other female members of the regular cast so often seem like the weakest links, in terms of carrying story lines or emoting.  Watching Black Lightning right after the Flash shows a remarkable contrast, that show's real stars are the three female lead actresses and one of them is remarkably young to be so talented.

[Kate45]

6 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I have denigrated Patton's acting in the past, and was pleased that she didn't feature much in this episode.  However I've never seen her in anything else and I have a strong aversion to Iris.  I have come to understand that this is an unpopular opinion in this forum.  Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show.  Her acting in this episode seemed exceptional to me, especially on a show where the other female members of the regular cast so often seem like the weakest links, in terms of carrying story lines or emoting.  Watching Black Lightning right after the Flash shows a remarkable contrast, that show's real stars are the three female lead actresses and one of them is remarkably young to be so talented.

Which is exactly what I said: something other than actual talent is driving your opinions. You have a “strong aversion” to Iris, and like Caitlin. That explains your POV. 

I’m glad you enjoyed 5x06, and that Candice’s diminished role helped with that somehow. There is truly something for everyone on this show!

I have to agree with the critics and say this was an exceptionally weak episode and I only enjoyed the Iris/Nora/Wells and Ralph/Cecile subplots.  

Note: Come January, you won’t have to compare/contrast the Flash to BL because they will be on different nights. If you really enjoy the acting on BL, that tells me quite a bit about the style of acting you enjoy. Makes perfect sense that you think Candice Patton can’t act, but think that *Danielle Panabaker (correct spelling) is amazing. 

I wont go into the whole lead actress vs. supporting actress thing with you, as it seems a bit pointless. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Kate45

[Rose Red]

9 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I have denigrated Patton's acting in the past, and was pleased that she didn't feature much in this episode.  However I've never seen her in anything else and I have a strong aversion to Iris.  I have come to understand that this is an unpopular opinion in this forum.  Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show.  Her acting in this episode seemed exceptional to me, especially on a show where the other female members of the regular cast so often seem like the weakest links, in terms of carrying story lines or emoting.  Watching Black Lightning right after the Flash shows a remarkable contrast, that show's real stars are the three female lead actresses and one of them is remarkably young to be so talented.

Lol

[shantown]

Caitlin is just not a good character. She's gone through as many retcons as we've had versions of Wells but because it's still the "same" character it doesn't get called out as much. I'm all for characters other than Barry to get a highlight episode, but putting Caitlin as the center just doesn't work, especially when you have to pull Barry in unnecessarily to boost the character and the plot. And most of that plot was Cisco leading the way and solving issues. Caitlin just was there, whining a bit. A truly well-written character or episode shouldn't need so many crutches. 

I enjoyed Nora and Iris together even though it's a complete 180 from last week and I wish there had been a bit more of a gradual shift. 

Sherlock remains completely unnecessary and unwanted. 

[adora721]

17 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show. 

While I won't attempt to change your opinion on Danielle's or Candice's acting; your belief  that Danielle Panabaker is the true female lead is false. The actual fact is that Candice Patton is the female lead as determined in her contract, her listing in the show's credits, legitimate statements in the media , what the CW President says, etc. (No matter what DP said in an interview, she's not the female lead).  Grant Gustin is the series lead, however. 

You may not think cast billing is important, but an actor's/actress' status on a show or in a movie can determine a lot about their future in show business. Remember, this is their livelihood, their jobs. To be listed as a lead character shows that a studio and producers have confidence in your ability to play a lead character and hold an audience's interest in that position. Cast billing may also determine your salary and the amount of screen time you have. Like any other job, your title in your current job can influence your title and opportunities in future jobs.

It's no small thing to rob someone of their legitimate job title simply because you don't like the actor/actress or the character. 

[wingster55]

12 hours ago, Kate45 said:

If you really enjoy the acting on BL, that tells me quite a bit about the style of acting you enjoy. Makes perfect sense that you think Candice Patton can’t act, but think that *Danielle Panabaker (correct spelling) is amazing. 

That's interesting you say that...because I find both CP and all actors/actresses on BL to be tops and much better than Panafaker.

I actually think Flash has strong acting overall with the exception of the aforementioned and Hartley (and Keiynan back when he was a regular)

[Trini]

2 hours ago, wingster55 said:

That's interesting you say that...because I find both CP and all actors/actresses on BL to be tops and much better than Panafaker.

I actually think Flash has strong acting overall with the exception of the aforementioned and Hartley (and Keiynan back when he was a regular)

I definitely have my own ranking of who's better than who, and there's definitely someone at the bottom of that list from the regular cast; but overall I think The Flash does a good job of casting good actors. As mentioned above, the writing is what often fails them. For me, there are definitely a few actors who are saving this ridiculous show.

 

21 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

...  Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show.  Her acting in this episode seemed exceptional to me, especially on a show where the other female members of the regular cast so often seem like the weakest links, in terms of carrying story lines or emoting.  Watching Black Lightning right after the Flash shows a remarkable contrast, that show's real stars are the three female lead actresses and one of them is remarkably young to be so talented.

Well, I'll bite: What exactly is your definition of "lead actress"?

Edited November 25, 2018 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

So Cicada's dagger is now a boomerang?  Or has he always had the ability to make it come to him?  Cause otherwise, that was a huge stretch.  I kept waiting for the camera to pan over and show that he was now working with a partner.  What a weird choice.   

Quote

 I assume the doctor was alluding to her cutting a man (was it in self defense or was she evil...we'll never know). 

Well, she ordered Zoom coffee so she must be EVOL!  

[Trini]

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

So Cicada's dagger is now a boomerang?  Or has he always had the ability to make it come to him? 

I think this was shown in episode 2; if not, it was definitely shown in the Vibe/Cicada fight in episode 3.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

New Wells sat around for hours trying to get Nora and Iris to figure out without him saying so the carnival clue and the water option.  He's annoying as heck but I have to also feel bad a bit for him dealing with the clueless who TOOK hours to catch on.  

I wonder how they would have originally written the scenes had Joe been on deck instead of Cecile.  

I'm disappointed but not surprised that once Caitlin and Co figured out her dad was his evil alter ego (again, why do cold powers turn people evil????) and realized he was only after the serum that they STILL didn't secure the serum before confronting him.  

How silly that Barry and co couldn't figure out before they went that they couldn't do anything in that environment.  Also, if Caitlin is fine in the cold, why was she affected by the cold breath earlier?  Not only affected, but the last one to wake up, lol.  

Nice that Killer Frost got a new hair do.  

[BkWurm1]

Also, how could Caitlin form a serum from her DNA that would allow Icicle to permanently get rid of his human side (or vice versa if taken by the human side of him)  if SHE isn't one or the other?  That...doesn't make sense, but I'm watching The Flash, so actually, it does make sense. 

I love the HUGE mental leaps they make to figure out that Cicada has a daughter.  They get to be right but they shouldn't have been right based on so little reason to assume it was right.  Sure, check out ANYONE that has a connection to that night but they should have had to work harder to confirm they had the right lead.  

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm disappointed but not surprised that once Caitlin and Co figured out her dad was his evil alter ego (again, why do cold powers turn people evil????) and realized he was only after the serum that they STILL didn't secure the serum before confronting him.  

How silly that Barry and co couldn't figure out before they went that they couldn't do anything in that environment.  Also, if Caitlin is fine in the cold, why was she affected by the cold breath earlier?  Not only affected, but the last one to wake up, lol.  

Nice that Killer Frost got a new hair do.  

 I don't think cold powers turn people evil.   It was Thomas' ALS cure, which had two side effects:  cold powers and an alternate personality.  As for why Caitlin was affected by Icicle's breath but not the cold, maybe it was part of the mental block.   He caught her off guard the first time but by the second time she encountered him she so upset her subconscious was already starting to overcome the block.   As for why everyone wasn't dead from being at near absolute zero?  Yeah, I got nothing.  

[adora721]

8 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 I don't think cold powers turn people evil.   It was Thomas' ALS cure, which had two side effects:  cold powers and an alternate personality. 

Then why are the alternate personalities both evil? More than KF's origin, that is the question I wanted to be answered.  And we still have zero answers on that. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by adora721

[Maverick]

 It's probably an unintended side effect of the cure.  Every medication has some kind of side effect, good or (usually) bad and many of those side effects can effect mood and behavior.  Why does Chantix cause some people to be suicidal?   I just assume that the cure impacts some part of the brain that causes this behavior.   It's one of the few things in this plot with some basis in reality.

[adora721]

8 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 It's probably an unintended side effect of the cure.  Every medication has some kind of side effect, good or (usually) bad and many of those side effects can effect mood and behavior.  Why does Chantix cause some people to be suicidal?   I just assume that the cure impacts some part of the brain that causes this behavior.   It's one of the few things in this plot with some basis in reality.

If you are right, then having Killer Frost on the team is dangerous; there's nothing to keep her from trying to murder her friends again. And if you say she can choose to be good, then it's not a side effect; it's a choice. And earlier you said there were only two side effects, now being evil is a third?!

Edited November 25, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

New Wells sat around for hours trying to get Nora and Iris to figure out without him saying so the carnival clue and the water option.  He's annoying as heck but I have to also feel bad a bit for him dealing with the clueless who TOOK hours to catch on.  

I wonder how they would have originally written the scenes had Joe been on deck instead of Cecile.  

I'm disappointed but not surprised that once Caitlin and Co figured out her dad was his evil alter ego (again, why do cold powers turn people evil????) and realized he was only after the serum that they STILL didn't secure the serum before confronting him.  

How silly that Barry and co couldn't figure out before they went that they couldn't do anything in that environment.  Also, if Caitlin is fine in the cold, why was she affected by the cold breath earlier?  Not only affected, but the last one to wake up, lol.  

Nice that Killer Frost got a new hair do.  

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Also, how could Caitlin form a serum from her DNA that would allow Icicle to permanently get rid of his human side (or vice versa if taken by the human side of him)  if SHE isn't one or the other?  That...doesn't make sense, but I'm watching The Flash, so actually, it does make sense. 

I love the HUGE mental leaps they make to figure out that Cicada has a daughter.  They get to be right but they shouldn't have been right based on so little reason to assume it was right.  Sure, check out ANYONE that has a connection to that night but they should have had to work harder to confirm they had the right lead.  

You're asking very good questions, BkWurm1; the writing this episode was A MESS.

[BkWurm1]

On 11/21/2018 at 5:11 PM, ursula said:

They laid the groundwork then chickened out at the execution probably because DP wasn't the original actor for the role. They wanted someone closer to Harrison's age then DP was cast as a favour and they ended up retooling the character. Again. And again. And again. And again. And...

Any original idea about casting an older Dr. Snow would have zero to do with them chickening out after spending years laying groundwork for a KF story line with the ACTUAL actress they currently have playing Caitlin.  I agree that they clearly scrapped any plans on making Caitlin go evil but they still wanted to play with KF so they keep resetting the rules so they can use her as they like.  It's really less Caitlin getting retooled, she's the same character with the same personality since season one IMO, but it's the rules around KF that keep changing.  This new thing with finding out her Dad "fixed" her DNA is less IMO retooling than a new discovery.

Whatever wrongs Caitlin did when she was still semi in control of KF they've written off as KF's fault and have written off KF being evil as growing pains of KF since she became far more moderate in a short period of time and I think since last year they settled on KF being a snarky friend with a few anti-hero traits.  And that's the one they are keeping. There were a lot of times last season when the peeps at Star Labs were more friendly with KF than Caitlin.  I do wish they'd address how super creepy it is for them to share the same body but be making vastly different kinds of choices about what they'd want to do with that body. She' s not like a roommate Caitlin never sees, she's like a body snatcher that roofies you and takes the chassis out for a spin.   It's like the creep factor in Stargate Universe where they communicated over long distances by letting people swap bodies but communicating was one thing.  They then sent them on vacations and used the host body for all sorts of things.  I still get that same ick factor with Caitlin and KF even if Caitlin seems attached now.  

On 11/22/2018 at 9:29 PM, DearEvette said:

 

For instance, If Thomas gave Caitlin the same experimental stuff he gave himself, and he was degenerating, why wouldn't he also assume that Caitlin might be facing some sort of the same side effects but never tried to tell her?

Also, he was just hanging out in a lab for 20 years hoping she'd find his clues and come find him? 

And  trust that she'd pick up ton cryptic clues in the periodic table?  What, a letter was too easy?  I mean, find a lawyer, write a letter tell them to deliver it to your daughter when she turns 18 or something.

Also Wells just gave this guy complete video access into STAR labs?  Sure, STAR labs has zero security but even that is just too much.  Considering it would have Eobard Thawne by that time, not Wells who constructed STAR labs, since the real Wells and his wife came up with idea right when Eobard was trapped in the past and swapped bodies and Caitlin's father's retreat pre-dated that by a couple years.  Given how  shady Eobard was y'all think he really was allowing anybody video into STAR labs?

Also how very convenient that the child Daddy Snow abandoned 20 years ago would end up working in... STAR labs!

And yes I know Barry practically wears a sign that  says "I am the Flash" given how many people he's told about himself, but also given how much stuff they discuss and do in STAR labs now, you'd think they'd have been a little more nervous about all the secrets this man must have learned about them.  Barry  might have paused a bit at the thought that this stranger would know he's The Flash.

And finally, for someone who was holed up in a dark lab, with only K-rations for 20 years he looked remarkably fleshy.  I mean contestants on Survivor  look emaciated after 15 weeks.

14

Thomas said he altered the treatment he gave Caitlin so she wouldn't have the same side effects he had.  

He was supposed to be stranded in the middle of the North Pole, no way out. The contact with the other Docs though made that seem less believable.  

Caitlin magically coming to work for Wells at Star Labs was Wells knowing she'd turn into a brilliant Dr and targeting her.  Likely he made friends with her dad because of who she would be. 

Icicle also used the cryo pod for years at a time so he may not have comparatively spent all that much time wandering around a cold lab by himself. 

 

21 hours ago, Al Herkimer said:

I have denigrated Patton's acting in the past, and was pleased that she didn't feature much in this episode.  However I've never seen her in anything else and I have a strong aversion to Iris.  I have come to understand that this is an unpopular opinion in this forum.  Caitlin is one of my favorite characters and, I believe Pannabaker is the true female lead of the show.  Her acting in this episode seemed exceptional to me, especially on a show where the other female members of the regular cast so often seem like the weakest links, in terms of carrying story lines or emoting.  Watching Black Lightning right after the Flash shows a remarkable contrast, that show's real stars are the three female lead actresses and one of them is remarkably young to be so talented.

I've never had a problem with CP's acting but I also don't think DP is as bad as people say.  She isn't fabulous but I've seen so much worse in the Arrowverse including an actress that literally if she's not the focus of the scene sometimes just shuts down like a robot in the background, frozen in place.  For the most part I feel like DP gets what Caitlin is feeling across and her choices make sense for her character.  Now her storylines and what she often is supposed to sell have been nonsense so I'm not sure I hold it against her when DP can't sell it.  But few could I think.  The actresses on BL are all consistently good.  

Quote

Over on Arrow the Calculator participated in some villainous plots but Team Arrow let him walk too.

Felicity had her father the Calculator arrested when he stole from her company after at first giving him the benefit of the doubt, but then later when he escaped custody he was brought back and helped save the WORLD from nuclear annihilation  yeah, the guy earned a pass.  And since then there's been no sign he's gone back to his evil ways.  But you are right, these universes do turn a blind eye often.  Still, KF never actually killed anyone. Even Barry has killed people.  So I think she can be let off the hook since she's been more friend now longer than foe, even if the change never really has been explained.    

[BkWurm1]

33 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 It's probably an unintended side effect of the cure.  Every medication has some kind of side effect, good or (usually) bad and many of those side effects can effect mood and behavior.  Why does Chantix cause some people to be suicidal?   I just assume that the cure impacts some part of the brain that causes this behavior.   It's one of the few things in this plot with some basis in reality.

 

27 minutes ago, adora721 said:

If you are right, then having Killer Frost on the team is dangerous; there's nothing to keep her from trying to murder her friends again. And if you say she can choose to be good, then it's not a side effect; it's a choice. And earlier you said there were only two side effects, now being evil is a third?!

 

I think they are less selling it as a choice than as Caitlin and KF adjusting to the meds and the side effects not being so much in control anymore.  I've had that with a few pills, I was told certain side effects likely would just wear off as the body got used to it.   So rather than KF still being dangerously out of control and unpredictable, she's stabilized into her "real" self now that she's had time to get over the initial side effects when she began to take control.  

That's simplifying it since they heavily implied that it was Caitlin's side that influenced KF back to her better angels, but they've also since then gone on to have them become more solidified as totally separate people.  In her father's case it's like he lost the fight to keep control and had no one helping him fight to regain control once he lost it unlike Caitlin who even after she went full on KF for a while in season three had the team trying to talk her down.

 But in the end, KF or Caitlin or a combo of them rejected that path and only after that did it seem that hard lines were drawn between KF and Caitlin as totally separate people. 

So maybe if Thomas had been able to be a bigger influence on his evil side when there was some fluidity, he would have been able to at least mitigate the degree of his cure's side effects.  But since he wasn't, then now after so much time has gone by and they are now very separate personalities, it's too late to temper the evil side whereas Caitlin's circumstances were different enough so when the split went full on, KF was already less evil than when she initially popped out.  

But of course we in the audience shouldn't have to be the ones coming up with the complicated explanations for how this could possibly make sense.  

Still, until I'm told otherwise, this is how I'll see it.  It seems to best fit with where the show is now.  And I don't see any point in railing against stuff in season three when I don't have any reason to think the show thinks there is anything to rail against anymore.

I get the frustration, Laurel in season three went from some self defense skills, a couple months of boxing lessons and a couple WEEKS lessons from someone from the League of Assassins into supposedly a super bad ass fighter that could hold her own with the best of the best.  It beyond strains the credulity but it's what the show wants to sell.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

But of course we in the audience shouldn't have to be the ones coming up with the complicated explanations for how this could possibly make sense.  

Good on everyone who has the energy to do this. I gave up about a season ago.

[DearEvette]

13 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Thomas said he altered the treatment he gave Caitlin so she wouldn't have the same side effects he had.  

He was supposed to be stranded in the middle of the North Pole, no way out. The contact with the other Docs though made that seem less believable.  

But we already know that the first one is a lie because in her repressed memory vibe from last season, Caitlin was riding her bike and fell or got hit by a car or something and turned into Killer Frost and her father was there with her when it happened.  And he was trying to prevent her from looking into the rearview mirror that fell off the car so she wouldn't see herself turn into KF.  He didn't sound horrified at what he was seeing.  He sounded more concerned with getting her not to look at herself.  So he knew before he did his disappearing act that she was already compromised. 

Come to think of it, both Cisco and Caitlin knew her father was there when she turned into little Kiddie Frost. There should have been more pushback on that front.

As to the second, well, we did see him basically shoot a version of a jet engine made of ice from his arms and fly off into the sky.  That is not a skill that he would have just thought up on a whim.  It is something he would have learned and practiced over time given how quick and easy it was for to just whip out when he needed to.  He is impervious to cold so getting from the North Pole probably was not as arduous for him as it was for some.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

But we already know that the first one is a lie because in her repressed memory vibe from last season, Caitlin was riding her bike and fell or got hit by a car or something and turned into Killer Frost and her father was there with her when it happened.  And he was trying to prevent her from looking into the rearview mirror that fell off the car so she wouldn't see herself turn into KF.  He didn't sound horrified at what he was seeing.  He sounded more concerned with getting her not to look at herself.  So he knew before he did his disappearing act that she was already compromised.

 At the time he wasn't saying that the split personality was the problem.  It was instability leading to dying that he supposedly tweaked.  Now if he wasn't faking that attack in the park, then he might have been telling the truth that their versions of the cure were different or maybe he WAS faking, in which, he was just trying to get her to give him the serum that would get rid of the "instability" aka his human side (though she though she was getting rid of the iceman cometh part) Why he wasn't concerned about her going KF, I'm not really sure.  Maybe it was because Caitlin at that point really wasn't and since he was just there to play her, he didn't need to express concern.  Plus it would further throw her off the scent that it was his evil side in control.  

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

He is impervious to cold so getting from the North Pole probably was not as arduous for him as it was for some.

It could have been the distance that was the problem.  Yes a skill he has practiced but maybe h learned it was too taxing to go any real distance.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

A couple things from the Cicada subplot on re-watch:

I didn't notice the first time, but they show a photo of Orlin and his wife(?) and daughter near the end.

The blade metahuman is credited as 'Raelene Sharp', AKA Razorsharp, an obscure DC comics character. In the comics, apparently she's not a straight up hero or villain; and it's ambiguous here as well.

[Starry]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Any original idea about casting an older Dr. Snow would have zero to do with them chickening out after spending years laying groundwork for a KF story line with the ACTUAL actress they currently have playing Caitlin. 

Some viewers believe that if Caitlin had been cast with an older actress as originally planned they wouldn't be rebooting KF every season because KF wouldn't have made it to s5. The only reason we're still dealing with KF is because DP is playing her. And they want to keep DP around for two reasons, nepotism and shipping fodder. Caitlin being allowed to breathe the same air as Barry is reason enough for a section of the fandom to believe that he will one day wake up and leave Iris for her. They want to keep the SB fans around and that's why you have an episode marketed with Snowbarrisco only for Barry to be completely useless and irrelevant to a plot he hadn't been a part of since s5 started. I obviously don't know if that is their thought process but it's a theory.

 

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Still, KF never actually killed anyone. Even Barry has killed people.  So I think she can be let off the hook since she's been more friend now longer than foe, even if the change never really has been explained.    

Barry has killed people but Barry has never killed or tried to kill a team member. Killer Frost is an accomplice in HR's murder. KF was the one who was disappointed and upset when Iris didn't die in the s3 finale. KF tried to kill both Barry ( 3x07 ) and Cisco ( 3x23 ) and the only reason she didn't succeed was because someone else intervened and stopped her, not because they managed to appeal to her good side.

When you have people calling Iris abusive, a monster and the big bad of the show ( this happened here, in the Newsflash episode thread ) for chipping her daughter while worshipping an actual murderer and calling her the real female lead I can understand why fans are frustrated and upset.

For my part, this was an episode that happened. I think DP got better with time but she still can't carry an episode. She also does better in scenes when she's the one supporting and comforting someone, like in 5x05 with Cisco. I agree with whoever said that both KS and CK gave weak performances in this episode. They went overboard with the humor at times but I thought Ralph and Cecile made a good duo. I'm glad they're splitting the cast in little groups. I think it's working for the most part.

[ursula]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

KF never actually killed anyone.

She killed HR. 

[adora721]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

She killed HR. 

And she killed Black Flash, who was working as a good guy for the Speed Force to rid the world of evil speedsters.

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

And she killed Black Flash, who was working as a good guy for the Speed Force to rid the world of evil speedsters.

I hate having to defend KF in this instance, but while she did kill Black Flash (or the ghost/waithe of Black Flash), she didn’t kill HR. She was an accomplice to his murder, and has never shown any sign of remorse. Before anyone asks, no, I don’t consider “sorry about HR” as a sign of remorse. Killer Frost/Caitlin (unclear who was in charge at that moment) acted as if she had no role in the murder of HR. That’s ridiculous. 

[adora721]

27 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I hate having to defend KF in this instance, but while she did kill Black Flash (or the ghost/waithe of Black Flash), she didn’t kill HR. She was an accomplice to his murder, and has never shown any sign of remorse. Before anyone asks, no, I don’t consider “sorry about HR” as a sign of remorse. Killer Frost/Caitlin (unclear who was in charge at that moment) acted as if she had no role in the murder of HR. That’s ridiculous. 

I appreciate the distinction you're making, but in the eyes of the law, "An accomplice is criminally liable to the same extent as the principal." Therefore, it's just as if she did murder HR herself. The double whammy is that she took HR to his death believing she was taking Iris to her death and she's shown no remorse for that either. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by adora721

[DearEvette]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

Killer Frost is an accomplice in HR's murder. KF was the one who was disappointed and upset when Iris didn't die in the s3 finale. KF tried to kill both Barry ( 3x07 ) and Cisco ( 3x23 ) and the only reason she didn't succeed was because someone else intervened and stopped her, not because they managed to appeal to her good side.

 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I appreciate the distinction you're making, but in the eyes of the law, "An accomplice is criminally liable to the same extent as the principal." Therefore, it's just as if she did murder HR herself. The double whammy is that she took HR to his death believing she was taking Iris to her death and she's shown no remorse for that either.

 

And these are all the reasons I find the whole storyline and writing for KF infuriating, frustrating and illogical.  It is so easy to tell that the conception and execution of the character is sloppy as hell from the jump.  They wanted to make her a villain while still trying to maintain Caitlin's status as a 'pure' sympathetic character whose owns hands would not be dirtied by KF. 

Ok.  Fine.  Let's say we all get collective amnesia on the inconsistencies in her story from the last two seasons. Let's say we buy that and all agree Caitlin is not responsible for KF.  So now they want to make Caitlin and KF all BFFs and want us to believe that KF is all reformed and shit.  Why?  Why is that even plausible for the audience to accept?  Why would we want this killer who has actively tried to kill all our heroes without apology or remorse in our midst?  And how does wanting to be associated with this evil side of herself make Caitlin still a good person? 

If the show doesn't confront these issues in some way -- a real apology, some acknowledgement that the team can't fully trust KF right off the bat, something -- then KF and Caitlin will always feel like frauds to me.  I mean, Barry got more censure from Diggle for erasing a kid he didn't even know he had than the team is giving to KF for the death of HR.  It is maddening.

[adora721]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

If the show doesn't confront these issues in some way -- a real apology, some acknowledgement that the team can't fully trust KF right off the bat, something -- then KF and Caitlin will always feel like frauds to me.  I mean, Barry got more censure from Diggle for erasing a kid he didn't even know he had than the team is giving to KF for the death of HR.  It is maddening.

What continues to astound me is the lengths the writing goes to avoid Caitlin or KF even doing the most basic thing as apologizing directly to the people they hurt. I've never seen anything like this.

The surest path to redemption starts with remorse/repentance, but the writing refuses to give us that. How do you forgive someone when they haven't acknowledged any wrong doing or asked for forgiveness?

The writers have zero interest in wiping her slate clean; they assume there's nothing on the slate. It's this loose end that will continue to plague Cait and KF until they either fix it or the show ends. 

Despite all my issues with "Arrow", E2 Laurel (Black Siren) apologized to Dinah for murdering Dinah's boyfriend, and I respect Laurel for doing so. How is it that Iris, Cecile, Cisco, Barry, and Cynthia don't deserve the same basic politeness of an actual, onscreen apology? How???????????????? Seriously, it must be in DP's contract.

Edited November 26, 2018 by adora721