Mad Men - General Discussion

[BBDi]

Megan damaged the show irrevocably, IMO.

 

As for the Kennedy assassination, I thought MM depicted it perfectly. My mother cried for the entire weekend as did most of the neighborhood mothers. Even those that had not voted for, or politically supported JFK. Trudy summed it  up perfectly when she said "this is America, I don't care what your politics are, you just don't shoot the President". 

 

I always say it was our generations 9/11. Those same feelings of grief, anger and fear and yes, for people we didn't really know. Add to that the beautiful. poignant funeral, which Jackie deliberately planned to capture many parts of Lincolns funeral, the beautiful young widow and the two adorable tiny children.........it was very moving.

 

In fact, I confess that to this day, the sight of tiny JFK Jr. saluting his fathers coffin can still bring me to tears.

It really was the unthinkable - and then it happened. And happened. And happened. Now assassinating the president always seems within the realm of possibility.

[cooksdelight]

ANYTIME a kid is mentioned by Peggy, Pete gets nervous. That conversation with Pete's mom had Peggy in a state of terror for a minute there.

[Sweets McGee]

Sorry, AMC, it's too soon for me to re-visit the Waitress of Doom.

[cooksdelight]

Casablanca is on TCM, followed by A Raisin In The Sun. I cannot watch Don and Diana either.

[chlban]

Sorry, AMC, it's too soon for me to re-visit the Waitress of Doom.

Yep I'm out for the afternoon. I just can't.

Sorry, AMC, it's too soon for me to re-visit the Waitress of Doom.

Yep I'm out for the afternoon. I just can't.

[RedHawk]

If I never hear Paul Anka again, it will be too soon. That promo was nice the first dozen times, the last 4,286 times, not so much.

 

 

I'm 52 and I think that is a terrible choice for the finale promo. I've heard that song forever and it's been used a million times for schmaltzy promos. I've seen the promo twice and that's enough. I'm so disappointed in the use of that song that I almost hope it's a cruel trick and the finale will be incredibly dark.

[Ohwell]

That fucking waitress again.

[Umbelina]

I'm watching.  Now that I absolutely know Diana was only a reason to get Don on the road, she won't annoy me so much.  I do want to see if I missed any little gems or foreshadowing in my absolute frustration of watching her before.

 

Now, it's calm, she's gone, so I may as well try to see why she was even there.

[Constantinople]

Times of Your Life was an advertising jingle for Kodak, and I think it originated as a jingle, so it seems appropriate given that "Kodak's" Carousel is probably still the most memorable Mad Men ad.

[cooksdelight]

Here's Don watching the mourners at the Menken woman's home, with such a tragic look on his face. Can't wait to see how Hamm does with Betty's death.

[RedHawk]

Times of Your Life was an advertising jingle for Kodak, and I think it originated as a jingle, so it seems appropriate given that "Kodak's" Carousel is probably still the most memorable Mad Men ad.

Ok I agree that it's a good connection for that reason.

[Domestic Assassin]

I think the other point with Diana was him coming face to face with the daughter she abandoned. 

[Umbelina]

How was Alias able to pull off such absolutely fantastic wigs SO long ago, and shows like this, and like Twilight (just for another example and because I'm watching Elizabeth Reeser) have such horrendous wigs?

[GreekGeek]

One overall question: I've looked in on the marathon from time to time and watched whatever was on if I liked it, but there seemed to be many, many more commercials than there were when the shows were first broadcast. Did anyone else think this? Were there any scenes you were looking forward to seeing again that were missing?

[ridethemaverick]

Sorry, I'm behind most of you on Netflix.

On rewatch, I'm also noticing how reasonable and even-keeled Henry is. He had his moments (hitting Don's boxes in the garage) but overall, he was a really good, mature guy.

Take the whole Betty and g-men thing. He could have easily been petty and jealous about Don getting a security clearance for something but instead, he said "Hmm. Well that's what they do. Maybe one day you'll be talking to them about me."

Or when Don was fussing at them about still living in his house. Henry backed Betty up when Don was there, but after he left, he told her Don was right.

As I said, he had his moments but on the whole, I think Betty was a very lucky woman.

[cooksdelight]

One overall question: I've looked in on the marathon from time to time and watched whatever was on if I liked it, but there seemed to be many, many more commercials than there were when the shows were first broadcast. Did anyone else think this? Were there any scenes you were looking forward to seeing again that were missing?

A shitload of commercials, but I actually found things that I had missed on the show. I didn't notice anything being left out, due to the weird times they stopped and started. I know more than I ever need to know about male erection pills, DirecTV and woman with a horse, Jaguar, and am still left wondering which pharmacies don't sell razors out in the open. Mine does.

[CarpeDiem54]

"am still left wondering which pharmacies don't sell razors out in the open. Mine does."

All the stores here have razors (except disposables) and razor blades locked up - all pharmacies and grocery stores.

[RedHawk]

I still laugh at Hannah and her horse, but yes, a boatload of ads. Of course, AMC wanted to sell all the ad space possible during the marathon. Will be interesting to see who bought ads during the finale because it is sorta the Superbowl of cable TV shows this year.

Edited May 17, 2015 by RedHawk

[suomi]

Jackie had held her husbands brain matter in her hand and handed it to a doctor at Parkland. Five years later she watched the man that had tried to step up as surrogate father for her children, Bobby, gunned down in a hotel kitchen. Four months after that she married a man that had been pursuing her for years who was rich enough to protect  her children, provide them a safe haven away from the US, although she never gave up her New York Apartment has home base, nor her children's heritage.  

 

She raised those children, arguably the most famous in the world at the time to be, by all reports, polite and well balanced adults. If the worst thing you can say about a "celebrity" kid is that they failed the BAR Exam twice before passing, I say you have done a damn good job.

 

Sorry, off my soapbox now.

 

Reminding me of her statement “If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much.”

[Umbelina]

I don't know if I can watch this Joan story again.  It's already making me sick to my stomach, just watching the Avon bungling.

 

I guess that means it's well done and hitting a nerve of similar memories.  Queasy.

[millennium]

Just curious, did anyone watch the Fancut of the first episode that was featured on the AMC site?   Some of it was pretty hilarious, including but not limited to the plastic lizard sex.

[JudyObscure]

When the camera focused in on Don's hand reaching down to touch the grass as he watched Suzanne, it was a glaringly obvious signal of his immediate sensual attraction. Females who look like Suzanne have been continually approached by males since they were, what, eight?, and they bloody well know the signs. The idea that there was any ambiguity about Don's intentions toward her is perhaps the most bizarre suggestion I've ever heard made about this show. Suzanne became an embarrasment to the professional reviewers who did not have the intellectual integrity to finally admit they had completely misread her, and to those who didn't wish to be reminded that the Drapers were lousy, emotionally-absent parents and that Don was as shitty a brother as he had been everything else but a storyteller.

Suzanne was despised for reasons analogous to antibodies attacking a foreign biological invader. She wasn't just new or different, as many other accepted/tolerated characters were, she was a complete outsider to the cultural and political ethos of everyone else. The worst that can be said in comparison about Jugulared Joan or Pious Peggy is that the former whored herself out to get a partnership or that the latter slept with Pete (never mind her taste in men) on the eve of his wedding? Please. They had tried their maternal darndest to convince people to self-ingest cancer. These Mad. Ave. men and women are the Sopranos gone legit, but far richer and more powerful, and in addition to making much more erudite and charming dinner companions than the uncouth boys from Joisy, they are also exceptionally adept at cleaning up any blood-red wine they might spill on their carpets.

Weiner could have had Bert Cooper be a devotee of any political philosophy (or none in particular), but he chose Ayn Rand, and for a reason. If someone had accused Bert of being an amoral, rapacious capitalist whose goal was to take as much as he could for himself and give nothing away unless forced, he would have thanked them for recognizing his intelligence, realism, and value to society.

By the same token, Weiner could have given the firm, in general, and wayward author Ken, in particular, any big name client, but he chose Dow Chemical, also for a reason. In the late 1960s, Dow was generally thought of according to this:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/twodays/peopleevents/e_napalm.html

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phan_Thi_Kim_Phuc#

Now, Dow had actually gotten out of the human-denuding napalm business by 1971 and was into the more gentle and benign Vietnamese-vegetation-denuding business with their colorfully mysterious Agent Orange. The PR advertising done on their behalf wasn't to get people to go to their local hardware store to buy either product, but to have the ultimate effect of getting Americans to accept what was being done in their name.

So fuck off, Suzanne, go find yourself another serial philanderer to lead astray, another wrecked marriage to home-wreck, another maypole to traipse barefoot in the park about, and stop showing up in the middle of your summer vacation to run a solar eclipse event for no extra pay - it sets a bad example for the children.

Everything's not comparable. No, Suzanne doesn't do as much damage as the tobacco industry, but then SCDP isn't as bad as Al Qaeda either. We were comparing Suzanne with Don's other mistresses, and trying to explain why she irritated some of us more than average. Joan and Peggy (pious?) weren't even part of it much less Dow chemical.

[Umbelina]

I'd take 10 Suzannes over ONE Sylvia!

[Umbelina]

I wish like hell they'd cast a better actor for the part of Don Draper as a kid. 

 

All this sympathy for Betty and Don's kids, and wondering about how screwed up they would become as adults, but really, not much for Don's much more grievous childhood suffering.  I think it's because, frankly, although we all wanted those reveals about Don, I honestly didn't like any of them, and I think a huge reason is that I never bought that kid as Don, and he did absolutely nothing to move me in any scene.

 

Pity that.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Umbelina

[Sweets McGee]

I'm not sure if I'm going anywhere with this but this was my shower thought of the day. I started thinking about what would've happened when Don returned from CA, presumably to McCann to work on the Coke ad. He would've had a conversation with Peggy (and maybe Stan too) about his experience and segue it into the Coke ad. That got my mind back The Doorway. Don returned from the trip to Hawaii (which was for the Royal Hawaiian account) and Stan asked how his trip was. "I had an experience. I can't really put it into words." And that turned into the suicidal "jumping off point" ad. Don very likely would've had a similar thing to say coming back from the CA/cross-country trip, though it was a much more powerful experience resulted into a much more optimistic ad - people connecting rather than disappearing.

[Sweets McGee]

That guy on reddit who had been counting characters' lines throughout the series completed through the end of the series. Interesting stuff!

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/madmen/comments/36nd7y/characters_with_the_most_lines_in_mad_men/

[Umbelina]

I appreciate and most agree with these reviews, http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/tim-goodman-mad-men-series-796469and http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/mad-men-series-finale-tim-796826

 

I've fan wanked my way to a decent ending for Don and his kids, but I listened to Mo Ryan and Tom and Lorenzo talking during their pod cast, and I have to say, I agree with them about a lot of their feelings. Having no resolve, and no face to face scenes with Don and anyone important to him (Peggy, Roger, Betty, the kids) for the entire second half of the season really does suck.

http://www1.play.it/audio/tom-lorenzos-pop-style-opinionfest/

 

I do think the final season (s) failed because of Weiner's control issues and agree that we shouldn't have to fan-wank if that ending was only about his work, and not about any personal growth. What a waste, in many ways, of the last "seasons" episodes, all to cram it in at the end, and still not give any satisfactory end between Don and Sally.

 

Mo Ryan apparently doesn't realize this all took place in Big Sur, a very isolated and barely populated area of the most rugged part of the California coastline, she mentions Malibu, but I've spent a great deal of time there.  The show covered why hitch-hiking wouldn't work, Manson, who hitch-hiked quite a bit, as did his murderous co-horts.  However, Don is rich as sin, and very persuasive.  Esalan was not filled with "hippies," and quite a few of those guests probably had money, and cars.  Throw some money at it Don, and buy one, or pay someone to drive you to a city.  Because of the roads, LA was about 5+ hours away, but Monterey was just over an hour away by road, since much of that part of the drive is less winding. 

 

Maybe he decided to wait for the Esalen transportation because it was only a few days away, and he did need time to think, after Sally and Betty's phone conversations? 

 

Either way, we didn't need the main character so separated from the rest of the cast for so long.  I did want my Don/kids resolution or at least face to face conversations!  I did want more from Peggy and Don than "Tell me your dreams so I can shit all over them!" and then a short phone call.  We COULD have had a wonderful 7th season, and Matt could have still had his COKE/love moment.  One didn't exclude the other.

 

The season split was a disaster.

[BBDi]

Mo Ryan apparently doesn't realize this all took place in Big Sur, a very isolated and barely populated area of the most rugged part of the California coastline, she mentions Malibu, but I've spent a great deal of time there.  The show covered why hitch-hiking wouldn't work, Manson, who hitch-hiked quite a bit, as did his murderous co-horts.  However, Don is rich as sin, and very persuasive.  Esalan was not filled with "hippies," and quite a few of those guests probably had money, and cars.  Throw some money at it Don, and buy one, or pay someone to drive you to a city.  Because of the roads, LA was about 5+ hours away, but Monterey was just over an hour away by road, since much of that part of the drive is less winding. 

 

Maybe he decided to wait for the Esalen transportation because it was only a few days away, and he did need time to think, after Sally and Betty's

 

I can accept that either Don was so broken at that point that he was incapable of using his charms/$$ to find a way out of Esalen (or maybe didn't want to). But I didn't understand Stephanie's behavior at all. She's the one who wanted to go there in the first place, and it didn't seem like she had a ton of $$ so it couldn't have been just an impulse for her to go there. Yet she left with barely any explanation.

 

Yes, I was totally relieved that she set Don straight that she wasn't his family, but the very fact of her taking them to Esalen and then skittering off seemed very contrived to me. I guess that's part of the pacing and plotting issue with me. I'm not sure I really wanted more of Don's angst or his meanderings but I wish he gotten to Esalen - and gotten stuck there - in a more logical way.

Edited May 24, 2015 by BBDi

[Umbelina]

Stephanie's story made sense to me.

 

Screw Don, she had problems of her own, and when, in the group therapy, she felt attacked over her decision about her child, she got pissed off and fled.  It wasn't helping her, and being around Don and HIS problems and easy solutions "put it behind you, move forward" were pissing her off too.  She went for peace and resolve, and instead got Don and judgement from the group.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I didn't have any problems with Stephanie taking off in the middle of the night.  We'd seen previously that she wasn't the most reliable person on the planet (much like Don), so the fact that she ran away after she was confronted with judgment doesn't bother me.

 

That being said, I would agree that the convolutions that got Don to the Esalen Institute were a little much.  I didn't so much mind the interlude in Oklahoma with the veterans, but I think that the could have skipped his visit to Diana's house in Racine entirely, and I would have been completely fine without him drive testing cars in Arizona or wherever he was.

[DianeDobbler]

Well, she has a point, even if she got the locales confused. Don didn't have a ride because Stephanie took off with the vehicle. But the Eselan center was full of rich hippies there to be enlightened, and they didn't materialize there. They got there with a vehicle, and Don could have requested one of them drive him to the bus stop or nearest/best departure outpost. I think under the circumstances, one of the participants would have understood. I think it's also unlikely Eselan itself lacks a vehicle, as it needs to bring in food, do the banking, etc.

[Umbelina]

No buses and no taxis in Big Sur, but I agree, Esalen would have a vehicle, and so would many of the guests.  I'm not sure if Esalen has an arrangement to pick up some guests at an airport or not, hell I don't even know if Monterey/Carmel HAD an airport back then, but they certainly had Greyhound and probably some kind of car rental place.  The mail is delivered there via a contract route, in their own vehicles, so I suppose it was also possible to hang out at the mailbox and offer that driver money to get him back to civilization and the guy might agree.

 

I do think someone there could have been talked into selling Don their vehicle though, but how much cash did he even have left?  He took off with not much.  At least we know why Matt had him give his Caddy away.

 

Dang, I wish we'd had a better season 7, and a better season 6 as well.  Very uneven writing throughout, and season 5 had serious issues as well.  Moments of great, but overall, Not Great Matt!  That podcast is so good, I highly recommend it.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[BBDi]

I didn't have any problems with Stephanie taking off in the middle of the night.  We'd seen previously that she wasn't the most reliable person on the planet (much like Don), so the fact that she ran away after she was confronted with judgment doesn't bother me.

 

That being said, I would agree that the convolutions that got Don to the Esalen Institute were a little much.  I didn't so much mind the interlude in Oklahoma with the veterans, but I think that the could have skipped his visit to Diana's house in Racine entirely, and I would have been completely fine without him drive testing cars in Arizona or wherever he was.

 

You are right. I totally forgot about the sequence of events at Esalen. Stephanie felt herself being judged, and she was too skittish or flaky to stick it out and try to deal with it. The abandonment stuff triggered Don as well, and in the end he was left without some to save/someone to save him (Stephanie) as well as without a vehicle. Makes much more sense now that I think about it.

 

I haven't been to Big Sur in decades, but yeah, very isolated, and back in those days there were large expanses of coast in California where there was nothing. It always freaks me out when I visit my family in So Cal that there are so few undeveloped places.I think maybe Don was just too broken at that point to try to finagle a way out of there - to seduce anybody or talk anybody into getting him out of there. Maybe he was just tired of bullshitting.

 

I like that his breakthrough moment with Leonard was wordless, too - he was listening, not talking.

[Athena]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[queenbee9b]

As much as Harry is a crappy person, there are times when I really appreciate him. Like the Hare Krishna episode where he helps Paul at the end.

And in the first or second season, there's an episode where his wife has kicked him out of the house (for cheating), and he's sleeping at the office and Don catches him walking around the office late at night in his undershirt and underpants. And then Don wants to talk about work, and Harry just has to sit there awkwardly in Don's office, in his underwear. Hee!

I feel like they made harry worse and worse. He was never as bad as those last seasons - 5,6,7a & b. In the early ones he is a little awkward, but like Pete he is thinking ahead. He understands LA (makes sunkist happen). Sure he cheated on his wife, but I think pretty much every character did. Then he becomes a complete disgusting scum bag.

I think I have also a disconnect because when you hear interviews with the actor on podcasts and TV rich sommers seems so nice.

[swadawa2]

I'm not sure that this was mentioned, I didn't read back, so sorry if it was.

 

But it just hit me,

Freddy actually foreshadowed the actual ending.

 

http://i61.tinypic.com/343kxh0.png, here, he is doing exactly what Don did, "ohm".

 

 

Sorry, if this was talked over already, it just made a huge impact on me :) 

[small potatoes]

I'm not sure that this was mentioned, I didn't read back, so sorry if it was.

 

But it just hit me,

Freddy actually foreshadowed the actual ending.

 

Yeah, I mentioned it earlier, in the episode thread. It nicely bookended the season, and highlighted how valuable Freddy has been to Peggy and Don. I always saw Freddy Rumsen as  the unsung hero of Mad Men.

 

Tell us more. What kind of huge impact did it have on you?

 

Edited to add--- The episode threads are now in the past seasons links. There's over twenty pages of comments on Person to Person.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2015 by small potatoes

[sistermagpie]

From the Betty thread...

 

I think she meant Francine's husband Carlton.

 

 

Francine! Yes, that's exactly who I meant. I blanked on her name. Sorry Francine!

 

    Peggy was "great with child" in S1. It was the plot, weight gain due to pregnancy is in another category from just weight gain, and she was slim for the rest of the series. Joan and Trudy were always cannonically gorgeous. If there was padding (other than for Trudy's pregnancy), I didn't even see it. I mean, I don't think the show fast-forwarded through Joan's pregnancy because her sex-pot status is THAT integral to her character and certainly wouldn't low-grade bash her that way. However, Joan's pregnancy *was* fast-forwarded because of the time-leap between S4 and S5 and as a result, Joan always looked perfect in the series.

 

 

 

But that's the thing--I'm not saying that anybody but Pete actually got saddled with a story where they went to seed permanently. Just that these kinds of body changes weren't just a thing for Pete. Joan and Trudy were padded post-pregnancy--not so much that they read as "fat" the way Peggy did, but in the sense that MW knew it was a thing going on with the characters and though it was important enough to do something about it (and the actress would presumably know about it to play it).. Trudy was "settled" and Joan was now a mother and no longer the sexpot of the office. Carlton gained weight. Peggy's weight gain disguised a pregnancy but was also dealt with as a character thing--she herself, being unaware of the pregnancy, treated it as such. Betty's weight gain, while temporary, was a big character arc. That's a lot of attention paid to bodily changes even leaving out Pete's pudge and combover, and even knowing that many of them were temporary.

 

Like you, I wasn't exactly hankering for a storyline where Don got fat or really looked terrible. His good looks, to me, read as both a blessing and a curse, sort of a devil's bargain that gives him advantages but also keep him from having to face some things. I do think there was a good reason for keeping him looking good--Don would probably almost find it a relief to be less handsome. But when I'm already looking at MW messing in big and tiny ways with other characters' physicality it makes me hyper aware of how it's all coming from a divine decree here. Roger isn't just not being asked to gain weight, his physical shape is presumably reflecting his charmed life and perpetual boyishness.

 

    I mean, what was the correct way for Don to behave in that instance?

 

 

I don't know if there's a correct way to respond to the statement since it's a pretty bizarre thing to say and taps into a million issues in Betty that would take somebody a week to even get through! But it's still an example of Don, the handsome white man, getting to avoid consequences, be righteous and protective when it comes to his daughter while never questioning whether he has the same values himself. Betty's the one who's been taught since birth to conform to and suffer for beauty standards but she's also the shallow one for thinking they're important.

[jennybfry]

"You don't have character, you're just handsome."

-Mathis to Don Draper in "The Forecast."

That's all I really had, although I actually thought Mathis was way out of line there. But per our discussion here, he did have a point about Don getting special treatment because of his looks. Granted he also had the talent to back it up, but he got away with a LOT of stuff too until Hershey's.

[Melancholy]

But that's the thing--I'm not saying that anybody but Pete actually got saddled with a story where they went to seed permanently. Just that these kinds of body changes weren't just a thing for Pete. Joan and Trudy were padded post-pregnancy--not so much that they read as "fat" the way Peggy did, but in the sense that MW knew it was a thing going on with the characters and though it was important enough to do something about it (and the actress would presumably know about it to play it).. Trudy was "settled" and Joan was now a mother and no longer the sexpot of the office. Carlton gained weight. Peggy's weight gain disguised a pregnancy but was also dealt with as a character thing--she herself, being unaware of the pregnancy, treated it as such. Betty's weight gain, while temporary, was a big character arc. That's a lot of attention paid to bodily changes even leaving out Pete's pudge and combover, and even knowing that many of them were temporary.

Like you, I wasn't exactly hankering for a storyline where Don got fat or really looked terrible. His good looks, to me, read as both a blessing and a curse, sort of a devil's bargain that gives him advantages but also keep him from having to face some things. I do think there was a good reason for keeping him looking good--Don would probably almost find it a relief to be less handsome. But when I'm already looking at MW messing in big and tiny ways with other characters' physicality it makes me hyper aware of how it's all coming from a divine decree here. Roger isn't just not being asked to gain weight, his physical shape is presumably reflecting his charmed life and perpetual boyishness.

 

I still wouldn't say there was a lot of attention paid to bodily changes, except for pregnancy where there's zero "shame" in gaining weight. Betty and Pete were the only two regular characters who became less unattractive, outside of pregnancy. (Well, I suppose other than Ken's eye-patch.) Most of the other characters that we saw regularly for a two seasons + remained good looking or average.

 

There was always a big fuss made over Joan's looks. The very first episode where Joan appeared post-baby featured her donning a pink cocktail dress to bring the baby and Don and Roger, in particular, making a huge fuss about her beauty and sexiness. (Of course with a Don/Roger vibe that these guys only compliment women's beauty if they're conventionally beautiful, not to give soothing New Age affirmations that baby weight women are beautiful. S5-7 Trudy was only marginally more settled than Betty in Ossining- very beautiful woman eager to please her straying husband who just dressed a little older in keeping with her maternal status.  

 

I don 't need to die on his rhetorical hill if we're in agreement that it's not poor writing or wrongly over-protective writing that Don and Roger remained attractive. That's my only dog in this fight. I read into your Original Post an accusation that Don/Roger were wrongly sheltered from aging badly above the rest of the cast. I agree that Roger was a Silver Fox so he was boyishly cute well into his middle age and could drink and screw around with no consequences. I agree that Don remained gorgeous as a Devil's Bargain to allow him to keep his activities of sexing up lots of women and encountering people of all 1960s types interested in conversing with him so he could freely travel through the decade along with the audience while holding onto his Establishment Credentials and Appearance. Instead of an alternative future where Don wasn't attractive enough to do all of that and instead, had to settle for his more wholesome, menschy hobbies and a be a better guy. Some longer version of how when Don can REALLY see his star falling ala mid-S4 or S7 and he's more likely to buckle down and fly right(er).  At any rate, these were worthy in-story writing reasons.

 

 

 

I don't know if there's a correct way to respond to the statement since it's a pretty bizarre thing to say and taps into a million issues in Betty that would take somebody a week to even get through! But it's still an example of Don, the handsome white man, getting to avoid consequences, be righteous and protective when it comes to his daughter while never questioning whether he has the same values himself. Betty's the one who's been taught since birth to conform to and suffer for beauty standards but she's also the shallow one for thinking they're important.

The ENTIRE SERIES questions Don's values of superficiality, materialism, and his sexist opinions. Mad Men is a microscope zeroing on Don's flawed value system and how it can devolve or improve based on how he mirrors the 1960s. That's it...that's the show.

 

In just the episode prior to the car accident under discussion (Ladies Room), Rachel challenged Don for querying why Rachel is involved in business instead of enjoying her beauty and culture as a man's wife. Plus, "I'm not going to let a woman talk to me like this!" In this ep, Betty's "shaking hands" are offered context by how Don treats Betty like a trophy wife. Most poignantly when Betty tried starting a conversation to get an inkling on Don's childhood and Don distracted her with sex, but then when the sex was over, Betty was stuck wondering aloud, "Who's in there?" Then, Don tried "curing" Betty's angst with gorgeous jewelry to avoid sending her a shrink and queried how Betty could be unhappy with all of her possessions and children and her *face*. In the first two eps, there was tons of materials focusing on Don's superficial priorities and sexism.

 

However while there are storylines about sexism and superficiality informing Don's extra-marital affairs, treatment of his wife, and how he deals with women at work, Don and the show are more complex. I don't agree with the "It takes having a daughter to make a man into a feminist" but there's a reason that it's a cliche- it does capture *a* truth and it's a component of Don's relationship with Sally (and Peggy in a protege way). Don could say stuff like "put your curlers in and we're start fresh tomorrow" with some newbie secretary- but it just hits too close to home for Betty to act like it'd be better if Sally was dead than alive but scarred.

 

Of course, Betty has a mother's love for Sally and would also rather have an alive but scarred Sally. However, there's TONS of clues that Betty KNOWS that she'd better be gorgeous or she'd have nothing. "My mother wanted me to be beautiful so I'd find a man." That's the fear that Betty feels as she's responsible for turning Sally out as a successful citizen. The entire series, but especially S1, BEGS the audience to empathize with Betty on that front. Just in this ep, Mona notes that Betty's lips help her "hold onto a man like that."

 

Meanwhile, Don can be more nuanced. His good looks help him, but Don, more substantively, hears compliments about his creative ideas and clients actively deciding whether to take his campaigns and advice. In some respect, Don is taken aback and kind of bothered when he's blatantly objectified  like when Mathis said that Don only got ahead because of his looks or Joy's "Come with us, you're beautiful and you don't talk very much" or Bobbi's "full Don Draper treatment" remark. Actually, it mirrors the compliment/objectification duality with women. Don accepts genuine compliments in a romantic setting or from people with good intentions who want to marry his good looks with his more important powers. However, like many a woman, Don gets bothered when acknowledgement of his looks is a way to call him a slut (Bobbi), a empty mimbo (Mathis), or invite him to a life of empty subservience (Joy). 

 

At any rate, both Betty and Don are concerned parents here. Betty speaks like woman in 1960 who knows full well and constantly lives with societal pressure to remain beautiful or risk losing all. Don gives a look like a 1960 man who knows this is the system and benefits from this system, but at this point, is just imaging that perhaps there should be an exception for HIS Salamander when the logical horrible conclusion is pointed out to him.

 

I really object to this notion that the series unreasonably protects or paints Don in an over-flattering light. There's a constant microscope on Don Draper and long-con story about him basically falling down a skyscraper in Life Coach terms. It's an ultimately compassionate but VERRRRRY hard-nosed portrayal of a complex guy.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Dipstick

[sistermagpie]

The ENTIRE SERIES questions Don's values of superficiality, materialism, and his sexist opinions. Mad Men is a microscope zeroing on Don's flawed value system and how it can devolve or improve based on how he mirrors the 1960s. That's it...that's the show.

 

 

I agree! I don't think any of these things are bad writing or unintentional. That's basically where I'm coming from. Looks, for instance, is always a central thing in the series, but it's usually complicated and sometimes contradictory. Like even the scene you mentioned where Joan came to the office in her fancy dress--you remembered it as people making a fuss over how great she looked. I remembered that the dress was kind of overdoing it for daytime (it was a cocktail dress) and that it didn't fit that well--which was backing up how Joan was feeling insecure and not really feeling on top of her game--or looking on top of her game. But I don't think either of those things are wrong--Joan is still beautiful. She's also wearing a dress the costume department made look tight and nightwear!

 

In a way, it's another one of those ways that other characters change while Don remains this static figure--at least on the outside. And even that's still changing within his time period. I mean, when the show starts Don, like Joan, is the ideal man for his time period, the 50s guy in the suit. By 1970 he still looks more 1960 than 1970. Doesn't make him unattractive, but he's no longer the king of the world he was in S1.

 

I think we are actually agreeing on what the show is doing with Don and why. Of course MW could have written a story about a guy who's gorgeous in 1960 and by the end of the decade completely isn't--but that would be a very different story than he wanted to tell, and Don's always *looking* like he's got it all together, looking like a hero, being the object of desire, is central to his character and to the way other people react to him. That's central to advertising, after all. People project tons of things on Don because of the figure he strikes.And Don himself does the same thing with other people a lot of the time, especially beautiful women. When he describes himself as "scratching" at his own life trying to get in, I always picture him trying to climb into one of his own ads where he imagines that if he just gets the outer-stuff right the feeling of connection will be there. Which is probably another good reason he's taken aback by Betty making such a blunt statement about Sally having a scar--while also being a hypocrite in ways that as a man he's totally allowed to be in his society!

 

The show seems to me to be very aware, especially in its ending moments, of other characters moving faster than Don is. That they all find new ways to relate to him--to the flawed man he is and the ideal man they still kind of see when they look at him. I'm thinking of that scene, for instance, where Pete comes into Don's office and sees Don's forgotten about their golf date. Don says that in lieu of golfing attire (in which Pete looks ridiculous) Don will just roll up his sleeves, toss his tie over his shoulder, and the clients will love it. Pete huffs, "Oh, they probably will!" and marches out with his golf bag. As a man, especially, it's not just about looks for Don. it's his attitude. That, I think, is one of the thing he sometimes loses even more than his looks. Like it's not just that he gets sweaty and glassy-eyed when drunk, it's those scenes where he's panicked and loses the alpha male exterior that make him less attractive. But remaining that perfect looking figure makes him still always a bit distant from everyone, someone they can't have too close or rely on. So much of the last ep was characters still caring about Don but also accepting that they'd learned to live without him.

[Melancholy]

 

I agree! I don't think any of these things are bad writing or unintentional. That's basically where I'm coming from. Looks, for instance, is always a central thing in the series, but it's usually complicated and sometimes contradictory.

 

OK, then I think we're closer in agreement. I agree that the show presents contradictions in the looks. IMO, Joan showing up looking gorgeous but overdone in A Little Kiss is a lot like Betty showing up in McCann in Shoot looking like the overdone older 1955 model in contrast to the trendy 1960 young girls, even though Betty was so beautiful throughout Shoot. To our modern eyes, Megan gave Don horrible fashion advice by asking him to wear a loud plaid sports coat instead of the classically handsome navy blazer he had on- but not so much in 1966.

 

I also agree that MW made a very deliberative choice for Don Draper to be gorgeous, but increasingly untrendy throughout the series (and particularly beautiful in the yoga/coke final scene). Don's power diminished throughout the series- but there will always be opportunities for a guy like that. Mad Men shows that how the United States changed A LOT in the '60s but also the ways that it stayed the same. White, able-bodied, rich, handsome guys may have lost some absolutist power and have to share a teensy bit more- but they're still absolutely the most privileged. I also see Don's very limited strategic compromises with late '60s/1970 fashion as more of his self-made origins creeping in unlikely ways. Don really had to carefully teach himself how to speak and dress and comport himself to pass in the upper-crust. Don's put more thought into his appearance than guys who had wealth or even just the barest security and functional upbringing handed to them which makes Don all the more aware that the loud, colorful Peacock era of men's fashion is really not his friend no matter what the trends say. With a more than dollop of emotional pride of Arriving = Wearing a Business Suit in Your Apartment (even if it doesn't have furniture).

 

Moreover, from a plot reason, Breaking Bad can't have Walter White take stupid pills  to give the audience some sense of satisfaction that this brilliant, but evil man is losing his powers of devastation. It would shrift the plot that very much hinges on Walt coming up with interesting plans. Now, I *love* Don, flaws and all, and do not wish him ill. However even for those who would wish him ill, it would hurt the plot to remove too many of Don's options by taking away his looks or intellgience. Even at his lowest, the plot requires the suspense of say, whether Don will try to get back into SC&P or to quote Jim Hobart, take a meeting with McCann because they're all just dying to tell Don how handsome he is or go with that other agency whose reps were ridiculously excited when some knock-out blonde that just walked up in the middle of their dinner to proposition Don because that's just such a Don Draper evening. The scenes of Don being pathetic in his apartment is necessary character shading- but it's not enough for a plot.

 

I also agree that Don's perfect looks distance him everyone else. However, this is part of Don choosing to remain in the "refrigerator." A guy with Don's looks and charisma can choose to use the features and body to double down HARD on the unapproachable, macho alpha or they can choose to purposefully soften their demeanor so people feel comfortable around them and particularly charmed that this Adonis is being so warm and easygoing. A lot of Don's arc is him see-sawing between the two, but Don usually elects for the former for a number of reasons (he's repressing so much pain, societal expectations, he can get easier results From On High if he gives nothing and expects everything as his birthright.) However because Don usually goes for the former, it makes people that much upset and *angry* when Don just loses any claim to charisma at all because one of his lies are being exposed or he drank too much or had really irresponsible sex.

[jennybfry]

Wonderful analysis! :)

[sistermagpie]

Dipstick--agree with ElizabethDarcy. That is a great analysis! Totally agree. 

 

In fact, that sort of premise, the way that Don has this complicated relationship to his own image, is very in keeping with the way the show deals with life. I mean, one of the things that I really loved about the ending of the series (I didn't love the last ep but I did like the endpoint, basically, for everyone) is the way it showed characters changing in a two steps forward/one step back way to the point they were at here. Instead of Peggy, Joan, Pete and Roger seeming to step into completely new lives at the end I felt like they all stepped into the lives we'd seen them evolve into before the opportunities came up. Peggy was already the kickass McCann employee--her fear about not having an office was more Peggy freaking out over panic than a real threat to her. Pete had worked his way back into his family and become "the mayor" before Duck and the Lear jet guy pointed it out to him. Roger had accepted that the period of his life where he was trying to prove his place at the company was over. And Joan had been essentially thinking like the boss of her own company for a while. What appeared to be just anger at the sexism she faced was also the frustration of a boss working with idiots. It's not the endpoint for their life, but it is the place they're definitely at now, and their lives have now caught up to them.

 

So it really is pretty interesting that imo the show leaves Don alone in a more transitional state. But not a pessimistic one, I don't think. There's something about everyone else moving on, and particularly his relationships with Betty, Sally and Peggy definitively changing because of where they're at, that seem like a good thing. It doesn't seem like a cold judgment of Don but an opportunity to try some new things. 

[Melancholy]

Thank you!

 

In a lot of ways, Waterloo could have served as a very functional happy ending for Don. The "happy ending" being that Don *did* strive his way towards a comfortable, opulent, easier status quo to enjoy being a MULTI-millionaire, regaining his status at SC&P under the good time best friendy leadership of Roger, enjoying being a fun weekend dad where his kids respect and benefit from him again but don't urgently RELY on him. The way was paved for Don to enjoy the fruits of his few-months labor and just enjoy the moolah, professional standing, peacetime at work, parental influence when he gets in the mood, and newly single status to be a playboy.

 

The back half of S7 challenges that. What more could Don want after Waterloo, and how does he go about obtaining it? You get a mixed bag. Don retained his instincts for booty calls and drink- but S6 scared him enough to confine the excesses to nighttime. The first half of S7 encouraged Don to be more genuine and to stop posing so much- but he's still inclined to preen with flattering attention and he still very much lives in a world that demands posing and he conforms out of habit to REALLY play his role for material and alpha rewards. "I'm Don Draper and I work at McCann Erickson." He wants to do something substantial that truly helps others and he stumbled on the idea on finding some kind of therapy and amends for his own psyche by reaching out to and helping others- but he doesn't know how to do it effectively which leads to Diana, Andy, Stephanie, the uber-naval gazing that leaked in Peggy's performance review, etc. He's considerably more amiable and less likely to hold onto a grudge or hold his line in a fight- and it's some parts humility and a desire to be generative and helpful instead of combative but other parts just lazy and exhausted and part and parcel of his deeper Dick Whitman low-self-esteem dominating his life without his Don Draper-assumed arrogance.

 

The last three eps introduced game-changing curve balls for Don. His kids losing their mother and total security at the Francis household. McCann definitively absorbing SC&P and Don experiencing a first-time shock of just being one Creative Director in a room full of them. Don gaining exposure to organized, thoughtful psycho-therapy. Life *happened* to Don in the last three eps more than Peggy, Pete, Roger, and even Joan who grabbed their destinies or even Betty who just doesn't have much of a life anymore. The series doesn't definitively answer how he deals with that. However, I do believe that his psychological progress in S7, the way that he really took to empathetic, group-oriented therapy, the intimation that he did play well with others at McCann to produce the Coke ad, his choice in people who got calls on his roadtrip (his children, Betty, Peggy) all indicate hope.

 

Don will likely relapse, he'll react poorly to an unforeseen professional or personal disappointment, he could become obssessed with a certain woman over all else- but end of S6/S7 convinces me that these setbacks will be shorter and less overpowering because Don has better coping mechanisms, he can get out outside of himself more easily, and he excorcised *some* of the shame of his childhood so he's under less pressure to always play a role or repress.  

 

I agree with your contrast on Don v. Pete/Peggy/Joan/Roger. Plus, Pete/Peggy/Joan/Roger were heading to some clear end. Certainly, Peggy/Joan/Roger weren't committing to self-improvement and psychological growth so much as attain a life that they decided that they wanted. For Roger, that happened to be a more age appropriate life. As you said, Peggy and Joan just quietly grew past gendered expectations to the point that their ultimate jobs were just logical endpoints for what they'd wanted all this time. Or at least, that's true for Peggy. I never got that Joan wanted to go into film production or run her own business but I do think it's logical end that Joan Holloway's favorite employee is Joan Harris and vice a versa so now, Joan can just enjoy working with herself without silly secretaries or unreliable partners or uppity female copywriters.

 

Don and Pete are linked because they WERE on their own conscious, transcendental mission of self-improvement. However, IMO, Pete got to a real destination (reunited family, great job, righteous lecture to his brother) fast enough before the curtain closed because Pete's issues were never as intractable and overpowering as Don's and Pete is more ahead in certian respects. Don is also more averse to declaring a life that includes tackiness or humdrumess as a success since Don will always seek the advertisement surface perfection and the artsy movie/novel depth of perfection, partly because Don HAS come to facimilles of that ideal in his marriages and affairs even Don comprehends it was all on a rotten foundation. Late in the series, Don wonders if Rachel was his missed chance mainly for an elegant, cinematic romance of equals. Meanwhile Pete has come to grips that life doesn't have to look perfect and Pete actually LIKES the tacky glad-handing and Trudy's debunate social climbing ways both for their genuine amusing quirkiness and also for how it can fund and secure a family future of ease. In my head, Don eventually gets there but he's not yet.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Dipstick

[sistermagpie]

Life *happened* to Don in the last three eps more than Peggy, Pete, Roger, and even Joan who grabbed their destinies or even Betty who just doesn't have much of a life anymore. The series doesn't definitively answer how he deals with that.

 

 

Yeah, which is just really interesting for Don. Throughout the series he's always been the center--as many people have told him at least once, they all tended to look to him as a leader or just have to live with his decisions hoping, as Joan said, he'll do what's best for them. So at the end he goes on another one of his road trips that usually leave people scrambling, but they don't anymore. Everyone has made a space for him in their life that doesn't require relying on him. He hasn't been rejected, but his space is limited--which in a sense is what he wanted and why he always had to keep a bag packed.

 

But then there's the question: what does he do with it? He's never dealt with it in this way before so it's just a question mark. He's looking, maybe, for a new kind of connection because he's tried all these traditional ones and didn't find them fulfilling. It really struck me in that ep where they were absorbed by McCann and everyone went off to see someone real except Don. It was Ted/new girlfriend, Roger/Marie, Pete/Trudy, Joan/Richard and even with Joan and Richard who were destined to break up she was spending time with someone with whom she shared a practical connection rather than a great romantic ideal. That same ep Don was running after the mysterious Diana, stuck in the same pattern. But this time he couldn't find the girl--couldn't find any girl willing to play out the romantic scenario, and he was "trapped" at a seminar dealing with himself.

 

I never got that Joan wanted to go into film production or run her own business but I do think it's logical end that Joan Holloway's favorite employee is Joan Harris and vice a versa so now, Joan can just enjoy working with herself without silly secretaries or unreliable partners or uppity female copywriters.

 

 

Yeah, I feel like Joan herself didn't realize it was right until it dropped into her lap and she realized: I can do this. Why do I need anyone else? It was just so obvious but it wasn't planned the way Peggy had planned her climb.

 

Don and Pete are linked because they WERE on their own conscious, transcendental mission of self-improvement.

 

 

I hadn't thought of it like that but yes, that's exactly right. And it is kind of interesting the way their backstories are like and not alike. Both grew up feeling rejected and unloved by their family but Pete seemed to retain the ability to (eventually) be able to appreciate the joy that his imperfect relationships offered, where as Don is still not sure where to find that. It's like ultimately Pete was dealing with his actual failures and finding practical ways to fix things or get better. Where as Don I think still even sees his own failings as so huge and existential he can only imagine being redeemed in some huge way or with a huge gesture. A lot of Pete's arc on the show has been accepting reality over an ideal--I remember VK once saying that Pete started out feeling like he needed to be an alpha like Don and then gave that up and basically embraced being the beta male--and that this was when he started getting any respect at all at work. Don's really never embraced reality over an imagined ideal--which is maybe what makes him great at what he does. He dreams bigger than Pete, who has the ability to look truly touched for a second by his demented mother's offer to have cook make his favorite thing for dinner that night. 

[VCRTracking]

Rewatching the first season it's amazing how there aren't any huge twists like other shows, but things that happen which have consequences later or in unusual ways. Basically like real life. Like Roger having two heart attack and being written out in late in the season, which was done because John Slattery had a recurring role on Desperate Housewives at the time. This brings in Duck Phillips who becomes a major antagonist for Don in Season 2. He instigates the British takeover of Sterling Cooper which dominates season 3.

 

Don's marriage to Megan happened because of two wildly separate occurances.  On Christmas, Don has drunken sex with Allison, a secretary who's been around since Season 1. He ignores her and an then gives her a 100 bonus, making her feel like a cheap whore. She angrily confronts him and leaves making a scene at the office. Joan punishes Don by replacing her with Miss Blankenship, Bert Cooper's old secretary. After a few amusing months, she dies at her desk and is replaced by Megan, the fetching receptionist.

Meanwhile Sally befriends Glen, the divorcee Helen Bishop's young son, whom Betty developed a creepy friendship with in season. Because Betty has the emotional maturity of a child she becomes jealous and forbids Glen from coming over. When Carla, the housekeeper allows Glen to see Sally to say goodbye, Betty fires her. This leaves noone to help take care of the kids when Don takes them to Los Angeles for vacation, so he hires Megan, his new secretary whom he has gotten to know and like. While there seeing that she's wonderful with the children, and sleeping with her Don proposes to her.

 

Another one is Betty meeting Henry Francis at Roger and Jane's wedding.

Edited July 19, 2015 by VCRTracking

[txhorns79]

Rewatching the first season it's amazing how there aren't any huge twists like other shows, but things that happen which have consequences later or in unusual ways.

 

I'd disagree only to the extent that finding out that Don Draper is not actually Don Draper seems like a pretty big twist during the first season. 

[VCRTracking]

Yeah, obviously that's a huge twist, but before that you knew there was some mysterious thing going on with him.

[kathe5133]

Just watched "Commissions and Fees". (There is no episode folder under season five and I'm not sure how or if I should start). Jared Harris! He is the most sublime actor! of course the entire cast is fantastic, but the scene where Don confronts him about the money. Wonderful!