S14.E02: Gods and Monsters

[Bergamot]

On 10/19/2018 at 3:02 AM, BabySpinach said:

Is there any other character on this show that has been as spoiled and coddled as Jack? Every time he whines and complains and vanishes into his own navel, Mary/Bobby/Cas/Dean/Sam trip over themselves to comfort and reassure him, yet he still moans about how he has "nothing." Bitch, you're practically smothered in emotional support and compassion. Dean is the one who grew up with nothing, yet he thinks only of others and never indulges in self pity.

"Dean doesn't matter." One of the most infuriating lines ever uttered on the show, especially when it comes from a flat, self-absorbed woobie Sue who can't ever hope to have even a tenth of Dean's charisma, likability, complexity, and strength. That's what happens when you write a one-note cinnamon roll. He may be a likable watch on an episode-by-episode basis, but since I have no emotional connection to him I have no desire to defend or analyze him when he acts like a self-pitying, ungrateful little shit.

 

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

There was no genuine concern for Dean or sadness or any kind of regret in any part of that speech by Jack.  He was all anger.  I think at the very end he may have recognized he'd crossed a line with Cas and then we get the "It's what Dean would have wanted."

I cheered for your comment, BabySpinach, especially the bolded part. So true!

That was kind of a bizarre scene, I thought. One minute Cas is soothing and coddling and upholding Jack, as they all always do -- praising him for how "kind" he supposedly was to Kelly's parents. Then there is a beat of silence, and the next thing you know, Jack is angrily telling Cas off because Cas maintains the importance of saving Dean. And you're right, Lemuria, there is no underlying concern or sadness from Jack regarding Dean's fate -- there is not even any sympathy or concern for Cas's feelings, for how upsetting this must be for him. I mean, Jack says he "gets it", but there is no indication that he really does.

And Jack being a very young human is no excuse, as far as I'm concerned. The importance of people's feelings should be the one thing he can comprehend, considering that he spends most of his time brooding over and pondering his own feelings. But I guess the lesson everyone has been teaching Jack, by constantly asking about and fussing over how he feels, is that it is only HIS feelings that matter.

Spoiler

 

I love that glimpse we get of the returned Dean in the promo for the next episode. "Cas, get in my head," he commands tersely, pointing at himself. "If I can't remember what happened, I need you to drag it out." I love his tone, the ruthlessness and utter disregard that he shows for himself; any damage that it might cause to have what happened "dragged out of him" is irrelevant to Dean. So of course, Jack is absolutely right: what is important to Dean is the danger that Michael might pose to the world.

But what Jack apparently doesn't have the ability to comprehend is that this is exactly why those who love Dean understand how lucky they are to have him. It is part of why they value him the way that they do, why they see him as worthy of their efforts to save and protect him.

 

Unfortunately, poor Cas is still not human enough to understand the importance of not letting the other person get the last word. :-) He should never have remained silent as that little twit made his remark about "what Dean would want" and then just waltzed out of the room, leaving Cas standing there -- even if the best he could do was to shout after Jack, "Oh, yeah? Sez you!" :-)

Seriously, though, what Cas should have said is something like, "Of course Dean would never ask us to put him first. And that is why we need to save him."

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Jack is angrily telling Cas off because Cas maintains the importance of saving Dean. And you're right, Lemuria, there is no underlying concern or sadness from Jack regarding Dean's fate -- there is not even any sympathy or concern for Cas's feelings, for how upsetting this must be for him. I mean, Jack says he "gets it", but there is no indication that he really does.

I just had this whole stream of consciousness thing about this scene that your comments somehow worked together in my head (not that you're to blame for the ridiculous thought that is to follow). Anyway, at the end of last season, Jack lashed out at Cas and/or Gabe for not bringing Sam back. He was very upset about Sam's death and now he's cool with Dean's as long as Michael gets his.  I don't think it's that he likes Sam better than Dean.  I was just wondering if he's mad at Dean and Michael for killing his father.  Yes, Lucifer was going to keep him around to drain him, or kill him, one or the other.  Don't know that he had completely decided that himself.  But, prior to that, they were starting to bond.  And, what with him just going to visit his grandparents, maybe he's on a family roll.  But, probably not.

[ILoveReading]

26 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Seriously, though, what Cas should have said is something like, "Of course Dean would never ask us to put him first. And that is why we need to save him."

This is so simple yet so powerful.  I think Misha is at just using his voice to utter threats and make Cas seem menacing.

You always have such a way with words, @Bergamot  You usually say what I'm thinking, just so much more eloquently. 

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think it's that he likes Sam better than Dean. 

It wouldn't bother me if Jack did like Sam better than Dean.  Because not all relationships are equal.  It's why I always find the interactions between Cas and Sam forced. I think Sam likes Cas well enough but I've never found them particularity close, and find they mostly tolerate each other for Dean's sake.

 

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I was just wondering if he's mad at Dean and Michael for killing his father.

I hope they aren't going in this direction becasue that would show Jack learned nothing.

Edited October 20, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I hope they aren't going in this direction becasue that would show Jack learned nothing

I want him to learn that he's evil, because he bugs me as a good guy. I don't know why I can't just let it go.

And, I agree with you about relationships.  Of course, Dean and Cas are closer.  But, I just said that, because Jack was heroworshipping Dean the beginning of last season, so I don't really think he likes SAm more than Dean.  

[ILoveReading]

So if the arch angel blade doesn't' kill humans shouldn't Dean stab himself with it  in a non-lethal place , just to make sure.

I mean, there is no downside. 

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So if the arch angel blade doesn't' kill humans shouldn't Dean stab himself with it  in a non-lethal place , just to make sure.

I mean, there is no downside. 

It probably only doesn't kill humans if there's an archangel inside. If he stabs himself in a non-lethal place, Michael could probably just surreptitiously heal himself with nobody being the wiser.

[S Cook Productions]

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

 

I cheered for your comment, BabySpinach, especially the bolded part. So true!

That was kind of a bizarre scene, I thought. One minute Cas is soothing and coddling and upholding Jack, as they all always do -- praising him for how "kind" he supposedly was to Kelly's parents. Then there is a beat of silence, and the next thing you know, Jack is angrily telling Cas off because Cas maintains the importance of saving Dean. And you're right, Lemuria, there is no underlying concern or sadness from Jack regarding Dean's fate -- there is not even any sympathy or concern for Cas's feelings, for how upsetting this must be for him. I mean, Jack says he "gets it", but there is no indication that he really does.

And Jack being a very young human is no excuse, as far as I'm concerned. The importance of people's feelings should be the one thing he can comprehend, considering that he spends most of his time brooding over and pondering his own feelings. But I guess the lesson everyone has been teaching Jack, by constantly asking about and fussing over how he feels, is that it is only HIS feelings that matter.

  Hide contents

 

I love that glimpse we get of the returned Dean in the promo for the next episode. "Cas, get in my head," he commands tersely, pointing at himself. "If I can't remember what happened, I need you to drag it out." I love his tone, the ruthlessness and utter disregard that he shows for himself; any damage that it might cause to have what happened "dragged out of him" is irrelevant to Dean. So of course, Jack is absolutely right: what is important to Dean is the danger that Michael might pose to the world.

But what Jack apparently doesn't have the ability to comprehend is that this is exactly why those who love Dean understand how lucky they are to have him. It is part of why they value him the way that they do, why they see him as worthy of their efforts to save and protect him.

 

Unfortunately, poor Cas is still not human enough to understand the importance of not letting the other person get the last word. :-) He should never have remained silent as that little twit made his remark about "what Dean would want" and then just waltzed out of the room, leaving Cas standing there -- even if the best he could do was to shout after Jack, "Oh, yeah? Sez you!" :-)

Seriously, though, what Cas should have said is something like, "Of course Dean would never ask us to put him first. And that is why we need to save him."

??

[BabySpinach]

Though this modestly-budgeted show has always had problems representing the true magnitude of power of various god-like beings, I found the no-touch-no-look smiting a really cool concept and visual. Even compared to the angels of season 4 and 5, who when occupying vessels still needed to physically touch their prey, Michael with his Sword would have clearly stood a cut above them. He literally just needs to think his enemies dead, and then they are. I found it surprisingly effective.

(On a shallower note, a tag accompanying this gif summed up my thoughts exactly: "What a dick. He's hot.")

[Dobian]

On 10/18/2018 at 7:52 PM, Katy M said:

Didn't they say something about Kelly having contacted them and going on some super secret assignment.  I know, I know, with a  baby?  

This show has been really good over the years with well-written domestic scenes, usually between Sam and Dean.  But this wasn't one of them.  "Kelly hasn't been in touch with us in a long time, guess because of her top secret government project!"  "Oh she had a baby?  Well isn't that special!"  "You don't know where she is now?  Oh well, do you want something to drink?  You look so much like her!"  This, um, is not how parents react when a total stranger walks into their house unannounced to update them on their missing daughter having their grandchild.

[SueB]

9 minutes ago, Dobian said:

This show has been really good over the years with well-written domestic scenes, usually between Sam and Dean.  But this wasn't one of them.  "Kelly hasn't been in touch with us in a long time, guess because of her top secret government project!"  "Oh she had a baby?  Well isn't that special!"  "You don't know where she is now?  Oh well, do you want something to drink?  You look so much like her!"  This, um, is not how parents react when a total stranger walks into their house unannounced to update them on their missing daughter having their grandchild.

She had told her sister she was pregnant.  And I think her sister knew she was sleeping with the President.  I imagine Kelly gave them a vague phone call to say she would be gone for quite some time and couldn't get in contact.  I suspect she didn't know she was dying at that time.  After she learned she was dying, perhaps she was both afraid of discovery and unable to tell her parents that.  It leaves the parents hanging onto the hope she's alive somewhere with the baby.  Which is irresponsible but maybe Kelly preferred that.  If I was the sister, I'd be threatening to go to the press about Baby POTUS and demand answers. Of course that a complicated matter because President "Jeff" has no clue.  So really, not sure it should be handled as a family.

Shockingly enough, there ARE people with government jobs who literally DO tell their next of kin (not the spouse, the spouse gets data) that they can't say where they are going nor when they will be back.  Perhaps the parents were accustomed to some level of secrecy from Kelly already.   

Regardless, I do agree the scene could have been written better but it's not complete implausible in my book.

[Dobian]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

 Regardless, I do agree the scene could have been written better but it's not complete implausible in my book.

It's their reaction that bugged me.  You find out your daughter never told you she was pregnant and had a baby, you're hurt, upset, worried, etc.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Dobian said:

It's their reaction that bugged me.  You find out your daughter never told you she was pregnant and had a baby, you're hurt, upset, worried, etc.

Well, the writers have made her Saint Kelly...so why wouldn't they make her parents saints as well.  RME

[Myrelle]

20 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Though this modestly-budgeted show has always had problems representing the true magnitude of power of various god-like beings, I found the no-touch-no-look smiting a really cool concept and visual. Even compared to the angels of season 4 and 5, who when occupying vessels still needed to physically touch their prey, Michael with his Sword would have clearly stood a cut above them. He literally just needs to think his enemies dead, and then they are. I found it surprisingly effective.

(On a shallower note, a tag accompanying this gif summed up my thoughts exactly: "What a dick. He's hot.")

I loved this scene for the very same reason.

[Myrelle]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, the writers have made her Saint Kelly...so why wouldn't they make her parents saints as well.  RME

:-D

Indeed.

I think that at this point in this series, sometimes I can just completely ignore the writing/dialogues on this show when the acting is up to snuff, and I just thoughts that the two actors who played the parents were terrific at selling what they were obviously told to sell us.

Same with the Cas and Nick scene. MC really brought the wearied resignation of what he sees as his greatest regret in his long lifetime.

It almost seemed as if he'd been taking notes from JA's past performances on this show there to me.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

Thinking more about Nick vessel business. 

I really dislike them making it seem like Nick was already a bad person who Lucifer decided to go after. It nullifies IMO, the true evil nature of Lucifer. Lucifer wanted to corrupt good humans in s5.  His power was in going after an emotionally distraught man who, at that time, had lost his wife and child, through what was no fault of his own at that time. IMO, if they neuter Lucifer to be someone who didn't prey on the innocent or emotionally comprised human what is the point of the devil in this show???

 

ETA:  Now if they go down a path that Nick was innocent...that the neighbor was innocent and Lucifer has left behind some kind of thing that makes Nick THINK he was the bad guy rather than Lucifer, then I'm okay with that arc, but right now.....I hate it.

Edited October 21, 2018 by catrox14

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

It's their reaction that bugged me.  You find out your daughter never told you she was pregnant and had a baby, you're hurt, upset, worried, etc.

They said that she told them she was pregnant, but didn't give any details. However, I agree with you that their reactions were strange.  

[7kstar]

On 10/19/2018 at 11:31 AM, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I think Dabb is playing a slow-burn mystery game here.  Berens wrote some great insights into Michael, whose story is clearly not over.  The insights into Jack & Cas were just character building IMO.  The insights into Nick also plays into the long game -- but exactly how is still a mystery IMO.  I understand the "he's the new Michael" theory but I'm not sure it's that simple. 

I think the main upset is how little they gave Jensen to do while expanding stuff that could have been shortened and maybe played better.  I agree that the actors playing the grandparents did a great job with what they were given, but it doesn't flow realistically and feels like a slap to the face when Michael/Dean was pimped as a big deal.  I guess NOT.   Too many have written what might have been a better way if we felt the grief for searching for Dean by being shown not telling us.  Funny how the writers forget the show not tell.  If the part with Dean had been more satisfying then the end game could expand and it wouldn't feel as if cramming actors down our throats.  If that makes sense.

 

I believe if they had written Mary better, we would have liked her more.  I can live with or without Bobby and Mary at this point.  There were some moments but they haven't been successful and that is the writer's fault.

On 10/19/2018 at 11:30 AM, Diane said:

Mick Lady Your back!!!!!!

Mick Lady glad to see you again.  Welcome back!  :)

On 10/19/2018 at 9:40 AM, Myrelle said:

And again I'll say that for me he brought the kind of Power to the role that we really only saw when the angels were first introduced in S4. And that was So. Awesome. to see

And given all of these givens-all of them, especially including and considering what Jensen has done with Dean for them over the years, I would think that any decent showrunner and any decent set of writers would agree with that same sentiment wholeheartedly.

I don't get the lack of support or direction.  I don't get why they thought this was such a good idea unless they want to make the cast larger so maybe it can go on without Sam and Dean.  Jensen did a lot with the little he was given and I thought he really did well this ep.  I can't say I'm surprised.  I no longer watch on Thursdays.  It isn't a must see for me and that is sad.  I wanted Supernatural to go out with a bang and how awesome it is, not limp to the finish line.

I guess in general the writers aren't doing so well why else would we have so many remakes.  I don't remember a time where there were so many remakes on the air.  Sure one or two but the numbers are huge.  I see both sides of the upset over Jensen/Dean.  I've always been a Dean fan, but I also am a brothers fan.  I'll watch next week when I've got the time, but I'm sad that I'm no longer in love with the show.  I don't know if I'll limp to the finish line or not.  Lots of issues in my real life so maybe it's coloring this more than if stuff was better.  don't know.

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 2:31 PM, icemiser69 said:

I think you are right.  I don't think Michael left.  I could envision a scenario where they bring Dean back home and Michael pops out and completes his plan without having to fight people.

The only fly in the ointment is if Castiel feels up Dean like he did Nick this episode and finds out that Dean is still carrying around Michael inside him.

Regardless, the writers wouldn't go through all of the trouble of a Dean/Michael merger just to end it two episodes into a new season.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Michael searching out vampires and werewolves was a protracted interview process for a new vessel.  I know that Dean is supposed to be "the vessel" for Michael the way Sam was "the vessel" for Lucifer, but I think the writers got enamored with the idea of the biggest bad of the angels being in the body of a Monster.

I think the odds of Michael still being in Dean are nil.  He'll probably have some left over memories or Michael radar to move plot along when necessary, but I doubt its more than that. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by ParadoxLost

[KSenniaV]

I really liked Dean/Michael, and Michael said he owns Dean, so I don't want him to be gone yet. Either, he's still there but hiding/pretending or he left but he'll be back. I'm going to hope against hope for good writing and a storyline that makes sense, for Jensen/Dean's sake. 

I very vaguely remember what happened last week. I don't think I hated the episode, but I was kinda so-so as to whether to watch this week. But I'm glad I did cos DeMichael was elegance mixed with holy badassery, and that beautiful mirror moment!

I defly hate Nickifer. Hated Lucifer and am mad that he's still around. 

Still don't like Mary, but at least they don't focus too much on her. I am kinda glad to have Bobby back. And he and Mary are kinda cute together. 

Sam is very sad and boring alone, so I'm glad Dean is back. Though I agree that his return was super abrupt and could have been written much better. 

Cas is still our adorable f*ck*p. I love him so I don't care anymore. It used to really bother me, then he died, and now that he's back I just accept him for what he is and appreciate having him around. :D 

I miss evil fetus Jack. That Jack was a much better character. More interesting and likable, and he even helped Cas be powerful again. I don't hate watching neutered teen Jack on screen, or anything. I can passively watch without wanting to punch him. And I'm not gonna post "Jack needs to die" threads like I have with other characters. But I'm still disappointed that the super evil scary shadow image we got of him right after he was born was scuttled for what we have now. Although, I liked him more and was more interested in him last season because then he at least had his powers. There are teen characters out there that were soooooo much worse than him though. Like Tyler from V. Or Connor from Angel. 

I'll keep watching for Dean and Cas. 

[S Cook Productions]

5 hours ago, KSenniaV said:

I really liked Dean/Michael, and Michael said he owns Dean, so I don't want him to be gone yet. Either, he's still there but hiding/pretending or he left but he'll be back. I'm going to hope against hope for good writing and a storyline that makes sense, for Jensen/Dean's sake. 

I very vaguely remember what happened last week. I don't think I hated the episode, but I was kinda so-so as to whether to watch this week. But I'm glad I did cos DeMichael was elegance mixed with holy badassery, and that beautiful mirror moment!

I defly hate Nickifer. Hated Lucifer and am mad that he's still around. 

Still don't like Mary, but at least they don't focus too much on her. I am kinda glad to have Bobby back. And he and Mary are kinda cute together. 

Sam is very sad and boring alone, so I'm glad Dean is back. Though I agree that his return was super abrupt and could have been written much better. 

Cas is still our adorable f*ck*p. I love him so I don't care anymore. It used to really bother me, then he died, and now that he's back I just accept him for what he is and appreciate having him around. :D 

I miss evil fetus Jack. That Jack was a much better character. More interesting and likable, and he even helped Cas be powerful again. I don't hate watching neutered teen Jack on screen, or anything. I can passively watch without wanting to punch him. And I'm not gonna post "Jack needs to die" threads like I have with other characters. But I'm still disappointed that the super evil scary shadow image we got of him right after he was born was scuttled for what we have now. Although, I liked him more and was more interested in him last season because then he at least had his powers. There are teen characters out there that were soooooo much worse than him though. Like Tyler from V. Or Connor from Angel. 

I'll keep watching for Dean and Cas. 

OmG Tyler from V, lol, I remember him...ha ha yes! I just wanted to wipe his hair out of his eyes the whole time...the only scenes I liked with him were when he was pitted against Fr. Jack Landry. Oh how I loved me some Fr. Jack...he was my "adorable Cas" of V. 

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

. Or Connor from Angel. 

Connor got a bad rap and a shitty life.  Poor kid LOL.  That said, Vincent Kartheiser IMO was fantastic in the role. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Connor got a bad rap and a shitty life.  Poor kid LOL.  That said, Vincent Kartheiser IMO was fantastic in the role. 

Agreed.

[mertensia]

I like that -as far as we know- Michael just left Dean. Adds a bit of paranoia and fear for the characters. Also fear. Will he take Dean over again? Try someone else? Is he hidden in Dean? 

[devlin]

This ep felt like a mish mash of shows. The nick scenes were extremely boring and didn’t feel like supernatural at all. I don’t have an emotional connection to this character and couldn’t care less about his journey. The sam/Mary/bobby scenes lacked an intensity and weren’t riveting at all. The jack scenes felt like some teenybopper show which is something I didn’t sign up for. Cas was just flitting round like he didn’t belong on the show. 

[Zipper]

I'm okay with Jack struggling, and lashing out from time to time. But to take away screen time from Michael!Dean, his plan, or the search for him, in lieu of an extended, unwise road trip tantrum just bugs. Like some of you, I have real issues with Jack's entry to this world--  forcing his own birth despite his mother's preference. That was so gross, so agency-depriving, that it colors the way I see him now.  And sure, the importance of "family" is emphasized in the show, so I can intellectually wrap my head around his wanting to meet his grandparents, but... that scene was so off-putting. The actors did well, but the premise of the FORMER president's assistant having to go dark with A BABY? Stop that nonsense. Further, Jack knows he can't maintain any familial relationship with them because he can't tell them he's their grandson or that their daughter is dead. So other than a shot in the arm for how much his mother was loved, and by inference, how much she was capable of loving him (and shouldn't he know that), what's the point?

Get that Nickifer off my screen. I am so tired of this, only 2 episodes in. I don't care who killed his family. I don't care if he ever finds out. I don't care whether he's murderous (either then or now). I don't even care if he's alive or dead. What kind of show elevates their appreciation of an actor's talent over telling the stories that have keep audiences engaged for 14 seasons? Apparently, this one. If they don't wrap this into some Winchester-related thing soon, I'm in danger of tuning out completely. (Until you all rave about some episode in the future-- who I am kidding).

Sam needs a shave. 

Mary needs to be less visible.

Bobby can stay for a bit, but he better get with the helpful tidbits ASAP. (I love Jim Beaver, but I don't need three fake Fibbies at any crime scene).

Hoping that having Dean back this week will help me manage this ongoing disappointment. 

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Like some of you, I have real issues with Jack's entry to this world--  forcing his own birth despite his mother's preference. That was so gross, so agency-depriving, that it colors the way I see him now.

 Every single living thing has a survival instinct.  And, like I said before, that act actually gave her a couple of more months of life.  Maybe, and we don't know this for sure, but maybe if she had gone with Cas to get the abortion immediately, that would have worked.  She was way past that point when she killed herself. 

 

29 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Sam needs a shave. 

Yes, he does.  And a haircut. 

 

29 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Bobby can stay for a bit, but he better get with the helpful tidbits ASAP. (I love Jim Beaver, but I don't need three fake Fibbies at any crime scene).

I'd prefer to keep Bobby over Mary.

[S Cook Productions]

10 hours ago, mertensia said:

I like that -as far as we know- Michael just left Dean. Adds a bit of paranoia and fear for the characters. Also fear. Will he take Dean over again? Try someone else? Is he hidden in Dean? 

Same with Nickifer...

[FlickChick]

Some have mentioned Michael actually leaving Dean - as in physically exiting Dean as a vessel - and then returning. I don't see how that is possible. In order to enter a vessel, the vessel's owner (Dean) has to say "yes". I think we can pretty much say that there is no way that Dean will say "yes" again to Michael. Of course if Michael can hide himself inside the "DeanVessel" and not have Cas be able to see/sense him, then I guess any crap these writers go with will be explained away with some LOL canon. But they can't have Michael vessel-hopping on screen and then come back to Dean - because Dean will definitely say NO to him.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

I don't see how that is possible. In order to enter a vessel, the vessel's owner (Dean) has to say "yes".

Are you trying to hold the show accountable to its own rules.  Excuse me while I laugh for a minute.  Dean saying "get out" also should have cast him out.

[trudysmom]

It's stupid,  the random, silly things that bugged me.  One, the way Nickifer says "Cast-yell".  It bugged me when he was Lucifer, now it bugs more. NO one else says it like that.  It's not hard to say .  But for some reason, that he calls him by his name seems wrong, somehow.  I mean I'm sure Cas told him "I'm Castiel", and that's all he knows to call him, but still, bugs me.  Like I said, silly.

NOTBobby's use of Bobby ism's and mannerisms bugs me.  He was too freakin' cool to live in South Dakota, but he's like our Bobby in every other way?  Please.  

This entire episode bugged me.  The pacing, the stupid repeat of a scene we'd already seen.  When it's just Sam, Dean and Cas, even when they're working on something big like hunting down Abadon or Amara, they ate, drank, talked to each other.  This episode was just bounce around from one thing to the next.  Too much going on, they must have used 6 different sets. To do what?  Show Nick being evil, traces of Lucifer still there?  Jack being needy and bratty?  That could have been accomplished in so many other, less annoying ways.  I guess it's the early writers fault for setting the bar so high, creating expectations of a real story that I cared about.  

[Zipper]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Every single living thing has a survival instinct.  And, like I said before, that act actually gave her a couple of more months of life.  Maybe, and we don't know this for sure, but maybe if she had gone with Cas to get the abortion immediately, that would have worked.  She was way past that point when she killed herself. 

Sure re: survival instinct. And maybe it doesn't bug you, but for me, when his survival instinct requires her to gestate the actual spawn of satan, against her wishes (at the time), that is a problem for me. When anyone or thing other than the pregnant woman makes that decision.... blech (could be current events making this a bigger deal for me).  I don't hold this against Jack as a character. To the contrary, I find myself often charmed by him (not this week), but the show set up his fetal nefilum power in a way that still squicks me out.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

It's stupid,  the random, silly things that bugged me.  One, the way Nickifer says "Cast-yell".  It bugged me when he was Lucifer, now it bugs more. NO one else says it like that.  It's not hard to say .  But for some reason, that he calls him by his name seems wrong, somehow.  I mean I'm sure Cas told him "I'm Castiel", and that's all he knows to call him, but still, bugs me.  Like I said, silly.

I'm with you on this point. I've ranted about it myself. It's aggravating and annoying. Why is he allowed to continually mispronounce it? It's STUPID, like you said. 

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, trudysmom said:

It's stupid,  the random, silly things that bugged me.  One, the way Nickifer says "Cast-yell".  It bugged me when he was Lucifer, now it bugs more. NO one else says it like that.  It's not hard to say .  But for some reason, that he calls him by his name seems wrong, somehow.  I mean I'm sure Cas told him "I'm Castiel", and that's all he knows to call him, but still, bugs me.  Like I said, silly.

NOTBobby's use of Bobby ism's and mannerisms bugs me.  He was too freakin' cool to live in South Dakota, but he's like our Bobby in every other way?  Please.  

This entire episode bugged me.  The pacing, the stupid repeat of a scene we'd already seen.  When it's just Sam, Dean and Cas, even when they're working on something big like hunting down Abadon or Amara, they ate, drank, talked to each other.  This episode was just bounce around from one thing to the next.  Too much going on, they must have used 6 different sets. To do what?  Show Nick being evil, traces of Lucifer still there?  Jack being needy and bratty?  That could have been accomplished in so many other, less annoying ways.  I guess it's the early writers fault for setting the bar so high, creating expectations of a real story that I cared about.  

Oh thank Chuck! The whole "Cast-yell" thing bugs the shit out of me! Now I don't feel so shallow...

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm with you on this point. I've ranted about it myself. It's aggravating and annoying. Why is he allowed to continually mispronounce it? It's STUPID, like you said. 

And he's so arrogant about it - like he's the one pronouncing it correctly and everybody else is wrong. I don't know if that's the character or the actor.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 8:49 AM, SueB said:

Quick responses:
@catrox14 possible long con by Luci, I'm thinking fractured psyche (i.e multiple personality disordre... and his agro side imprinted on Luci)

@ZennyKenny I think that in order to play out a longer game with Michael, they made him very opaque.  That translates into boring.  I also think that the 'lightening in a bottle' that is the Sam/Dean dynamic is missing.  You don't have to be a Sam/Dean 'only' fan (or any variant of that theme) to miss the dynamic.  If we had had Sam/Michael dynamic that would have also (IMO) made Michael much more interesting.  But Michael is so powerful.  He literally can't be in a room with Sam without likely just killing him with a casual shrug of his shoulders.  So we're missing that.  In sum, with Dean MIA and Michael being both opaque and only working with day players... that hamstrings character development.  Personally, I got a lot more on second rewatch (see a post after this one .. maybe in an hour).

@Bobcatkitten I'm intrigued as well.  Dabb always likes a long-game story.  He's rolling the dice IMO that fans will hang with him but I'm very intrigued.

@Mick Lady *waves enthusiastically* I MISSED YOU! 

Thanks @SueB! I just caught this. Life has been rough lately, but I will always have Supernatural and this site. I know I've been away for awhile, but I'm back now, and very happy!

Last night, our local TBS ran Supernatural until 3a.m. And yes, I stayed up and watched it! Mick thought I was nuts, but it's my comfort show!

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Thanks @SueB! I just caught this. Life has been rough lately, but I will always have Supernatural and this site. I know I've been away for awhile, but I'm back now, and very happy!

Last night, our local TBS ran Supernatural until 3a.m. And yes, I stayed up and watched it! Mick thought I was nuts, but it's my comfort show!

**waves at Mick!** Hi Mick!!

[ZennyKenny]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Are you trying to hold the show accountable to its own rules.  Excuse me while I laugh for a minute.  Dean saying "get out" also should have cast him out.

Well we are dealing with a show who's version of consent includes tricking someone into saying yes, so...

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Some have mentioned Michael actually leaving Dean - as in physically exiting Dean as a vessel - and then returning. I don't see how that is possible. In order to enter a vessel, the vessel's owner (Dean) has to say "yes". I think we can pretty much say that there is no way that Dean will say "yes" again to Michael. Of course if Michael can hide himself inside the "DeanVessel" and not have Cas be able to see/sense him, then I guess any crap these writers go with will be explained away with some LOL canon. But they can't have Michael vessel-hopping on screen and then come back to Dean - because Dean will definitely say NO to him.

Michael said he owned Dean and he wouldn't leave when Dean told him to leave  so it may be that the AU rules of possesssion allow repossession without another agreement, kind of like a perpetual yes.

If that isn't the case, I could see Dean saying yes again if one of his loved ones is under threat or if he fully remembers what Michael did and decides he is capable of controlling him. I woul find it interesting if Michael left Dean because he was being affected by Dean in a way that was detrimental to his own plans.

What I don't want is for Dean to be irrelevant to the Michael arc henceforth.

Dean hopefully will have enough memories of Michael's thoughts to hunt Michael rather easily.

[mertensia]

14 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Some have mentioned Michael actually leaving Dean - as in physically exiting Dean as a vessel - and then returning. I don't see how that is possible. In order to enter a vessel, the vessel's owner (Dean) has to say "yes". I think we can pretty much say that there is no way that Dean will say "yes" again to Michael. Of course if Michael can hide himself inside the "DeanVessel" and not have Cas be able to see/sense him, then I guess any crap these writers go with will be explained away with some LOL canon. But they can't have Michael vessel-hopping on screen and then come back to Dean - because Dean will definitely say NO to him.

It's entirely possible that Michael set up.the equivalent of a computer program back door in Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, mertensia said:

It's entirely possible that Michael set up.the equivalent of a computer program back door in Dean.

I agree. He was doing a bunch of experimenting with grace and such with the monsters. I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing other experimenting as well. It will be interesting to see if <from the previews, so spoiler tagged just in case>

Spoiler

Castiel detects more than the usual amount of residual grace when he checks Dean, and if they wonder if that means anything.

I would be really surprised if Michael's "I own you" doesn't mean anything. I tend to think it means something very important. And if it doesn't cause concern for Dean, and if Dean isn't trying to research and/or protect himself in some way from a potential Michael return, I will be disappointed, because that should be one of the first things Dean thinks of.

[FlickChick]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What I don't want is for Dean to be irrelevant to the Michael arc henceforth.

Of course, neither do I. What I do want is to have more Dean/Michael interactions, some worthwhile storyline for Dean - not just moping around. Too much to ask, I know.

[catrox14]

[Lemuria]

Lucky Tapeball!  LOL

[takalotti]

Then...

 

Just thought it was weird that all of the previouslies were from season 13; none from 14.01

 

Now...

 

So was that Michael's grace? Just wouldn’t have expected him to be okay wasting his own on the experimentation phase. Maybe Jo? 

 

Speaking of Jo, my closed captioning has Mary's line as "Joe was pretty specific" and that messed with my head. I figured it was some hunter who found clues in Duluth that made Team Winchester figure it had to be Michael, and I kept wondering, "Why hasn’t there been any reference to Jo's call to Sam?" I must not have been paying attention to the details of what Sam said when he talked about the police reports and how he JUST found them. Duh! 

 

ARRRGH! I love Cas, more than I probably should, and I’m totally neutral/ambivalent when it comes to Sam, but WTF, Cas?! Griping to SAM of all people "And yet every time I look at [Nick], all I can see is the supreme agent of evil."

1 ) First Mary, and now Cas. WTAF is up with people complaining to SAM about how they can’t look at Nick? And why isn’t Sam's response a terse, "Hey, if I can look at him, then anyone can"?

2 ) Why does Sam need to explain to Cas that Nick was just housing Lucifer and deserves a chance at rebuilding his life? Cas should be the most sympathetic to Nick since he also housed Lucifer.

3 ) Okay, Cas, is that how everyone else should feel when they look at you? "Cas, every time I look at you, all I see is the supreme agent of evil."

 

You too, Jack?! I don’t know how Sam doesn’t slap all these people silly and shout "Go ahead and complain about Nick, but quit doing it around me, FFS!"

 

Reminding an unstable man about past trauma before he’s ready. Good plan!

 

I don’t remember much about the original episode where we see the lead up to Nick saying Yes to Wife-ifer. Was it really just a man who killed his family, or wre there hints it could have been supernatural? Could be why the neighbor changed his story if the cops were doubting his first statement ("But there were no footprints where you say you saw the man," "Security cameras around the houses don’t show what you described") and he would sound like a crazy person if he kept insisting he saw weird shit?

 

Interesting to get a specific time stamp on how long ago the AW apocalypse started. But I’m not curious enough to see how 15 years ago lines up with all the other passing comments made from AW people to figure out how parallel the two worlds are supposed to be.

 

Not really sure why a nephil's human component would slow down the process of regenerating grace. I would have expected the opposite, considering how a nephil is more powerful than the angel/archangel parent, which I assumed was due to having grace with a soul to power boost. But, whatever is convenient to plot, right writers? ??‍♀️

 

J: You don’t understand what I’m going through.

Me: ??‍♀️ Oh for Pete's sake!

 

You know you watched the Jus in Bello con videos too much when this makes you laugh (emphasis mine)...

C: Even though he's departed, there may be some of his influence still within you.

 

Were werewolf teeth prosthetics always that weird?

 

N: You don’t understand.

C: No, I do.

Me: Is this supposed to be a drinking game?

 

Also, I thought that conversation was going to be about Cas dying a million times and getting a second(/millionth) chance at life. Wasn't expecting the whole 'morality of angels possessing humans' debate.

 

So based on Michael's "Why do you think I dumped your brothers and sisters in plain sight? Why do you think I let you escape?" explanation of wanting to draw Team Winchester in, does that mean that maybe all he wanted from Jo was for her to see him because he knew she’d report back to the Winchesters? Or was he really trying to recruit her for active help and she called Sam at Michael's request? The real question is, will we ever find out ??‍♀️

 

Cas, I know you don’t want your boyfriend to die ... again. And I know you don’t want to play an actual part in making him dead. But Jack is technically right.

And the whole time Jack was making his arguments for killing Michael even if there's was no way to do it without taking Dean out, too, I was like, "Cas, you know Dean would be nodding along with everything he's saying." So when Jack finally said, "Do you think he’d want it any other way?" I was like Yasssss! And I loved how Cas' face went from 'How can you say such a thing?' to 'Well shit.'

Also, Cas was fine hugging Dean before his Kamikaze mission to Amara. So how is this different? Also, was Cas talking about the same kind of angel cuffs that Lucifer melted back in AW? Why is Team Winchester assuming they’d work on Michael?

 

Okay, so of course the question is "Did Michael really leave, or is he playing stowaway?" They should be saying things like "It’s me, but don’t take my word for it," "Let’s use the angel cuffs until Cas can check him out to be sure."

 

And why did he leave? Is this all part of his original plan/trap that he referenced to Lydia? Or was the trap only the weregels and when that didn’t work he bolted? But why would bolting and sending Dean back home be better? Oh, or maybe like an overconfident villain, he left before the weregels attacked because he assumed they’d be successful, and then Real Dean would walk in and either be devastated to see his family dead or be taken out as well.

 

I know this isn’t important, but if Michael really did leave, WHEN did he do it? Before the doors opened? Angels leave a vessel kind of like demons do, just more gently/prettily, right? We didn’t see that happen, it seems most likely that took place before the doors opened. But then why would RealDean approach them like that? Was he just coming out of a fog? As far as his behavior goes, it seemed like Michael left and Dean came back just as he grabbed the beam. Also, his first words should have been, 'Sammy. Why am I wearing this ridiculous outfit?' Also, also, that was quick.

 

Regarding all the chatter about too much time spent on this storyline, not enough time spent on that storyline: While I don’t like it either, I don’t feel the need to complain about it only because I think it’s basically at J2's request, isn’t it? They asked to lighten their load so they could spend more time with family, which means other characters carrying other storylines to share the load. It would be nice if SPN could become a candidate for having shorter seasons. Then it could be focused on TFW (2.0 if need be) without being more work for J2.

[FierceCritter]

On 10/19/2018 at 3:44 AM, Edo3 said:

Doesn't anyone suspect Michael will go into the "Werewolf Master"?

It seems to me that the experiments Michael was performing were not to create vamp or were angels, but to see if they were compatible with him.

Additionally the actor portraying the Master is quite charismatic, I have seen him before and wanted to search IMDB for what he was in...yet he was not even credited, which certainly leads me to suspect he will probably be the next Michael.

BTW does anyone know the Weremaster's name or previous roles?

This is TOTALLY what I thought as soon as Dean said Michael left him and he didn't know why. All the talk on here about everyone thinking Michael is still in Dean caught me totally off guard.

And a thought just occurred to me as to why that doesn't make sense. While he's "hiding" in Dean, he can't actually be accomplishing anything other than maybe spying, right? No more making Mongels/Vampgels?

(P.S. Not quite as badly necroposting like I usually do [up to 2014 on my all-season re-watch] but yes, I'm just catching up all the s14 episodes...)

[FierceCritter]

RE: Jack going off to Castiel about putting offing Michael above saving Dean, I didn't read every single word of every post here, and if I missed this from someone else, I'm sorry. But I didn't see anyone pointing out that Jack spent how much time dealing with the aftermath of AUMichael's work in the AU? That that's where he was coming from? The extreme need to not let that - or worse - happen to the non-AU world? In this case, I do think Dean would agree with him. And I'm half afraid - if this may be the last season - that could be leading toward a permanent end to Dean. Which would not be at all awesome.

[takalotti]

Wait a second. Remember Raphael's drooling vessel? And the words of warning that Dean would be worse off than that if he let Michael in?

 

What ever happened to that?

Edited December 6, 2018 by takalotti

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Wait a second. Remember Raphael's drooling vessel? And the words of warning that Dean would be worse of than that if he let Michael in?

 

What ever happened to that?

In The Song Remains the Same, other Michael said he didn't do that to his vessels, so I have no problem believing this Michael doesn't either.  Maybe it's just Raphael.  Lucifer doesn't seem to leave his vessels drooly either.

[takalotti]

I didn’t remember Michael saying that, so thanks! I should have also remembered that YoungJohn seemed fine after, or was that a different timeline?

True. I didn’t think about how Lucifer's used vessels weren’t the same. Of course, it seems like Nick is royally fucked up in the head. So maybe Raphael actually understood how hosting an archangel can derange a person (perhaps other vessels he had before Donnie) and chose to mentally incapacitate them to keep them from being harmful.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

I didn’t remember Michael saying that, so thanks! I should have also remembered that YoungJohn seemed fine after, or was that a different timeline?

True. I didn’t think about how Lucifer's used vessels weren’t the same. Of course, it seems like Nick is royally fucked up in the head. So maybe Raphael actually understood how hosting an archangel can derange a person (perhaps other vessels he had before Donnie) and chose to mentally incapacitate them to keep them from being harmful.

Taking my response to all episodes.