S02.E08: Season 2, Episode 8

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

The women galvanize themselves into taking action against Fallon, leaving Lucy in a difficult position. But will Lydia get away with what she has done, or will justice come knocking?

Original airdate: 8/22/18

[heckkitty]

That was so good. This just absolutely has to get renewed - there are still too many loose ends 

[PinkRibbons]

What an amazing episode to illustrate both the heights of what woman can achieve when they are allowed control over themselves and the depths they can be dragged through by the passing whims of masculine control. I mean, Lydia totally deserved that end, but the fact that Charles could just snap his fingers and have her dragged away is terrifying, and I think the showrunners wanted us to see that.

Isabella is a fascinating and really not totally likable character. In the end her feeling of class difference from the others really did show. I'm sure she feels sorry in some way for what she did but at the same time feels totally justified. So her entire family is saved, she gets her money and her daughter, and meanwhile a bunch of beasts will find another Priestess and continue on to rape and murder girls she probably won't ever think about because they're so far beneath her. In the end, how much do the lives of some innocent poor women count against the life of her raping, murderous, incestuous brother?

Meanwhile, Florence Scanwell is one scary Mama. I feel like she might have been the most dangerous person in the room with Fallon, even more so than Lucy.

[heckkitty]

Lydia having to listen to Florence preach was the awesomest. She was the protective mama bear with Fallon; she totally would have finished him. 

[Hazel55]

Throughout the past two seasons, I think one of the greatest recurring themes of this show has been the unfair advantage of men, and the comparative powerlessness of women in this society. And I'd thought that many things they've shown thus far-- women raped without recourse by employers, family friends, brothers; powerful men able to murder girls by the dozen with no consequences; the most powerful and wealthy of women unable to control their own finances-- had given stellar support for this idea. 

But this episode gave the best illustration of just how much women were at the mercy of men-- all it took was ONE male relative to lock away a woman in hell forever. 

And no matter how much we all might hate Lydia, seeing her, probably the smartest character on this show, be locked away in an asylum for life at a single word from the DUMBEST character on this show (Charles), provided a truly powerful example of this. 

[heckkitty]

That is so well put. The other case I noted was how much she thought Blaine would help her, but in reality he didn’t give a shit.   Tragic, even for terrible Lydia. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Please let Blayne die a horribly painful death between now and when S3 begins. He sucks and needs to die but I don't want any more screen time wasted on him. For all of Fallon's faults (you know, like rape and murder), I think that he really did like Lucy, which just made it all the more delicious when she made it clear that she was no longer on his side.

I totally get that Isabella was in a tough position, but she lost me when she said that Charlotte had just abandoned her and essentially blamed her for what happened. Bitch, please. She got your daughter out of that boarding school and gave her a place to hide. It's not her fault that Quigley figured out where Sophia was. And sorry that Charlotte was so distracted by HER MOTHER BEING HANGED that she wasn't at your beck and call every second of the day.

Don't get me wrong - I understand that Isabella's priority was protecting her daughter which required getting out from under Blayne's financial control, but it was just her attitude that rubbed me the wrong way. Charlotte did what she promised to do, which was get Sophia from the boarding school and keep her hidden. Charlotte isn't psychic so she couldn't have known that Quigley would bust into Greek Street to take Sophia away.

Thank goodness Hunt told North that Margaret is alive!

[snowwhyte]

I am really glad that Lucy didn't waste her mother's sacrifice and kill Fallon. I was also happy to see her comforting her brother.

I love that Nancy can just stroll into her house leading a bound gentleman with a bag over his head and no one thinks anything of it. 

There was a lot to like about this episode. I hope we get a season three but it was a satisfying conclusion if we don't.

[dmc]

Wow

Well they’re definitely needs to be a season three.

I couldn’t believe the Justice was in the bar the entire episode almost. C’mon don’t just give up and become a drunk...it’s only been one season. 

I have to say I’m proud of Charles I’ve always thought he was kind of a moron but at least he has some sort of ethics. 

Lydia in Bedlam...I can picture her calling for all her famous friends and the staff thinking that she’s completely insane.

Amelia, Justice and Violet love triangle for Season 3. 

It makes sense that Lord Fallon would take his life. This means that the Spartans will be a major plot point next season.

Lady Fitz leveraging Fallon to protect her daughter. I think she only admitted that she cared for her brother so that he would leave her alone. 

I sort of hate Harriet. I try to like her but she’s so calculating. William seriously Margaret will be back. 

Charlotte and Lucy running the brothel, will the black brother be their competitor...will the Spartans be their nemesis

[snowwhyte]

Lady Fitz was protecting her own reputation and lifestyle as much as anything with her actions. She would have been tainted by association. I think she is underestimating Blayne's obsession with her though. She may have access to some money and a house but he still has all the power. He could have her committed alongside Lydia and then take custody of Sofia.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I kept waiting for Blayne to ask Sophia when she was born so that he could figure out that she's his daughter.

[snowwhyte]

He must know she's his daughter. I did think it's a bit strange that they were just ignoring the fact that she is illegitimate. Lydia and Blayne were making it sound like Lady Fits had just hidden her away for no reason and now she would just take her rightful place in society. I know some illegitimate offspring of nobility were accepted but what story are they going to come up with to explain Sofia? 

Edited August 22, 2018 by snowwhyte

[abbyzenn]

For a moment there at the end scene of the women entertaining the culls I thought they were in Golden Square.  During the Fallon death scene I thought he was going to stab Blaine (maybe just wishful thinking).

This season has been very good.  Interesting story lines, some great scenery, beautiful clothes, and heartbreaking story lines.

There could definitely be a third season

[nodorothyparker]

Good episode with plenty of loose ends to explore heading into a potential third season.

16 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

And no matter how much we all might hate Lydia, seeing her, probably the smartest character on this show, be locked away in an asylum for life at a single word from the DUMBEST character on this show (Charles), provided a truly powerful example of this. 

This was my take too.  After most of a season of Quigley still being terrible but leaving just enough daylight that it felt like they were starting to give her some kind of layering to make her more than Cruella De Vil in a powdered wig, the show chucked all that last episode for her to again be the most terrible to ever terrible.  But letting Charles, who's easily the dumbest laziest character on the canvas, toss her into Bedlam on the sole basis of his say-so as a male relative isn't proper punishment for that.  He honestly seemed more bothered that everyone else was bothering him with his mother's crimes than by the crimes themselves and took the immediate out they suggested to remove her so he could continue to live off of what she had built.  It honestly wasn't that different than what we saw at the start of the season when he and Emily immediately hotfooted it over to take over Golden Square the minutes he heard she was locked up.  He didn't care that she was in jail or what she had likely done to get herself there, but about "his inheritance." 

Charles has mostly been haplessly comedic during his run on the show, so it's an interesting turn of his character to see him now capitalizing on his status as a man in this society and the relative advantages he's had as a result.  Emily trying to fake a pregnancy was dumb from the get go, but she earned her own house and a chunk of hush money through her silence on Quigley nearly getting her killed by the Spartans Bad Men Murder Club.  Only now that they've burned through that money and she's been working to make that house a success while he's mostly laid around it getting freebies does it come out that the house was never hers and because she obviously came from the poor working class and has been supporting herself as a harlot who never learned how to read she didn't even know that.

I love that Nancy can lead a tied up man with a bag over his head through the street to her house and because of what she does for a living, no one even thinks anything of that.

[heckkitty]

1 hour ago, abbyzenn said:

During the Fallon death scene I thought he was going to stab Blaine (maybe just wishful thinking).

Oh, SAME. I kept hoping he'd do it, then he didn't. 

[OtterMommy]

Well, that was definitely worth it.  I'm convinced that this is one the best shows currently around and I want to say "ditto" to all your posts.  Here are a couple of other things that stood out for me.

Margaret's family is mistakenly under the impression that she can never return.  We know from the last episode that Hunt told her that she could return after her sentence (7 or 14 years) was complete (historically we know that she would also have to be able to afford to return to England).  I don't think this was a writing error--it is realistic for them to have known people who were transported, none of whom ever returned.  I do think, though, it would be far more likely that she would have been transported to Georgia, and not Virginia.  

But here's what I found completely heartbreaking about this.  Now that they all know where she has gone--and I think we can assume she's on her way as Hunt said she'd sail "tomorrow" and North was looking for a body that was hanged "yesterday"--most of her family could theoretically find her.  Charlotte, Lucy, and even Nancy could make their way to Virginia.  Hunt and Margaret's son, however, could never do that.  Even though Margaret is alive, she's still essentially dead to North.

I was moved more than I expected when Nancy admitted to Charlotte that Margaret was the great love of her life.  I really appreciate how this show is handling what modern eyes might label "gay" relationships.  Here they aren't one thing or the other...they just are.  I think this also applies to how the show treats the characters modern eyes might label "minority" but here they have full agency.  I recently listened to a podcast that featured an interview with an author who writes historical fiction.  She says that she always looks for the characters that history tries to put on the fringe because, in reality, they weren't on the fringe.

Sort of along those lines: Violet and Amelia.  I wonder where they will go with this, but I do think that the two women are on different pages.  While I don't doubt that Violet has a genuine affection for Amelia, I don't think she necessarily wants to be in a relationship with her.  She is far more determined to be tied to no one in any way and to be independent.  And since Hunt (who I am so glad is still alive) seems back in the picture, it should be interesting.

I really, really missed the hearty laughter and heaving bosom of Margaret Wells...it made her absence feel more devastating.

Finally, Florence Scanwell preaching at the mental hospital with Lydia screeching was just pure perfection.

[heckkitty]

I suspect the reason they said Margaret could't return is because she was supposed to have been executed, and that sentence would still be carried out if she came back (provided the same corrupt losers were still in power, of course).

[nodorothyparker]

13 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Isabella is a fascinating and really not totally likable character. In the end her feeling of class difference from the others really did show. I'm sure she feels sorry in some way for what she did but at the same time feels totally justified. So her entire family is saved, she gets her money and her daughter, and meanwhile a bunch of beasts will find another Priestess and continue on to rape and murder girls she probably won't ever think about because they're so far beneath her. In the end, how much do the lives of some innocent poor women count against the life of her raping, murderous, incestuous brother?

I love how layered this whole thing was written.  Isabella was coming off pretty cavalierly in those first scenes in the Wells house, where Charlotte has just lost her mother telling her that she might as well do something productive and help her out some more since she's not doing anything at that particular moment.   And on the surface level, yeah, it does read very much like oh yes, that is too bad that my brother is part of the Spartans Very Bad Men Murder Club that rapes and kills women this society deems disposable but MY fortune and MY kid, so you understand, right?    I don't doubt that there's some real classism at play there because she is an aristocrat and everything about their world tells them that their lives matter more than those of the poor hapless girls her brother's club is hurting. 

Yet at the same time, her big secret is no longer a secret.  Her daughter is now vulnerable.  Her brother is threatening to lock her away in Bedlam.    She doesn't have any more rights than a child to do much about any of it.  So it becomes somewhat understandable if not terribly laudable that in that moment she grabs the chance before her to make all of that go away to protect herself and her child.  While I'm sure she'd say she's not happy about it that her choice leaves her brother free to do the terrible things he does, I can also well imagine her thinking that the women like Charlotte she's met are a resourceful bunch who will surely figure something out.  It's a very self-interested decision.

Sophia hasn't really registered as much a character, but after the day she's had being taken by one stranger and then another, dropped off at a brothel, and then especially after the garden scene of the siblings arguing about rape and murder plots you know she's gotta be thinking that living as a near orphan at a boarding school isn't looking like such a terrible thing after all.

[PinkRibbons]

7 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

He must know she's his daughter. I did think it's a bit strange that they were just ignoring the fact that she is illegitimate. Lydia and Blayne were making it sound like Lady Fits had just hidden her away for no reason and now she would just take her rightful place in society. I know some illegitimate offspring of nobility were accepted but what story are they going to come up with to explain Sofia? 

I would think that they'd say that Sophia is Blayne's bastard with another woman, and that since he has no legitimate heir (and hopefully will die next season, leaving his estate behind), she's likely to inherit from him. It actually looks good if he purposefully sends his daughter off to live with his sister, away from his bachelor life, which is no place for a young girl. So Sophia is kept and raised to be a perfect lady by her devoted (and still respectable) aunt, who is unlikely to marry and will probably leave her own money to Sophia as well. Bastard or not, being heiress to an obscene amount of money will make Sophia an extremely comfortable woman and a sought-after wife. And in the end her father having a bastard is no great comment against her. If it was known she was her mother's bastard, that would be a different issue. She'd have to contend with accusations of inheriting her mother's sinful urges.

Meanwhile I've been thinking, Fallon's seppuku scene is a very interesting juxtaposition to his interrogation scene in Hunt's house. A bunch of men standing around in the dark play-acting that they are some fabulous arcane society out of the history books, with stupid rituals and great shows of "nobility". Whereas the scene at Hunt's house is way scarier, in broad daylight with a bunch of women standing around wanting Fallon's blood and doing it in a very matter of fact way (I love Charlotte's body language as she pulls up a chair). It was a bit on the nose, but I appreciated Isabella's rubbing Blayne's nose in the fact that Fallon has fallen into womens' hands and that was worse than he could imagine.

Blayne freeing Fallon and scoffing at him letting women do that to him make me think (hope) that Blayne will meet his death at the center of a pack of women with knives.

There were a couple of things things that bugged me deeply this episode that were basically just plot-induced stupidity: Charlotte didn't need to tell Isabella exactly where Fallon was (down to the area in London and the house), Violet really should have been given an extra glance at Fallon after beaning him in the head to make sure he was down -- the whole time she was hugging Amelia I thought he'd get back up and hit Violet from behind. The biggest stupidity of course is leaving Fallon with no guard, though I don't think even Nancy could necessarily win against Blayne in a fight (of course there is some very satisfying fantasy to be had about her catching him in her house and destroying him). There still should have been someone keeping an eye on Fallon in case he slipped his bonds.

[Stiggs]

God, this show is well written. 

I hope they find a way to bring Margaret back for season 3 - and there better be a season 3, damn it. And I don’t care how they bring her back - this is an Emily/Handmaid’s Tale situation. I am willing to just roll with whatever needs to be done to get her back in the story. Have Dr. Who drop her off, I don’t care. I’ll buy it. She and Lydia are so crucial to this show. 

Everyone else here is expressing the mixed feelings about Lydia perfectly. She’s clearly touched by a demon, but having her mutant son throw her away just because he can, ugh. 

I was hoping that Isabella was going to somehow kill her brother after she got what she wanted. I can understand why she did what she did. If a male family member could lock me away with the wave of a hand I’d be terrified. And yeah, I think she probably doesn’t lose tons of sleep over the girls her sicko brother is killing because they are poor. 

And man, am I glad I did not live in old timey England. 

[OtterMommy]

16 minutes ago, Stiggs said:

I hope they find a way to bring Margaret back for season 3 - and there better be a season 3, damn it. And I don’t care how they bring her back - this is an Emily/Handmaid’s Tale situation. I am willing to just roll with whatever needs to be done to get her back in the story. Have Dr. Who drop her off, I don’t care. I’ll buy it. She and Lydia are so crucial to this show. 

 

 

I would watch the hell out of a show of Margaret indentured servant-ing away in Colonial Virginia. 

More thoughts in the spec thread.

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, heckkitty said:

I suspect the reason they said Margaret could't return is because she was supposed to have been executed, and that sentence would still be carried out if she came back (provided the same corrupt losers were still in power, of course).

That may be why her family said that, but it isn't why the *writers* said that.  Hunt told Margaret that she could return after her sentence, which is how it would have worked in reality.  Transporting, instead of hanging, someone who killed in self-defense was actually an accurate sentence.  True, the victim was a member of the aristocracy, which would have tilted Margaret's fate towards hanging, but in reality, it could have gone either way.

[heckkitty]

I missed that. Might have to rewatch episode 7!

[UNOSEZ]

I too loved damn near every minute if thus episode... Lydia got her comeuppance... But like many that fact it was so easy for that cinderblock with legs to do it was sad commentary... Also as someone upthread said.. I just can't like Harriet... Something about her just irks me and always did.. Her accent.. How much she pushes up on Mr.  North... I dunno what they have planned for her but I could see her as.. If not villainous... As adversarial to Charlotte.... One thing I loved most was the last scene of Charlotte and Pa at the door.. She was standing just like  her mom used to with her hand up... 

[Stiggs]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

I too loved damn near every minute if thus episode... Lydia got her comeuppance... But like many that fact it was so easy for that cinderblock with legs to do it was sad commentary... Also as someone upthread said.. I just can't like Harriet... Something about her just irks me and always did.. Her accent.. How much she pushes up on Mr.  North... I dunno what they have planned for her but I could see her as.. If not villainous... As adversarial to Charlotte.... One thing I loved most was the last scene of Charlotte and Pa at the door.. She was standing just like  her mom used to with her hand up... 

I had the same reaction to the last scene - then sort of laughed at myself about finding the moment touching, how the daughter would mind the family brothel now, heh. 

This ep was a fantastic season end. There better be a season 3! 

[ferjy]

Well, not Blayne in the asylum as I’d hoped but seeing Quigley there was hugely satisfying. Yet terrifying at the same time how someone can be put away so easily because she’s a woman. It’s also a more realistic move for those days than locking up Blayne. And Lucy is safely away from Fallon. Sad about Margaret not being able to return because she’d then have to face the noose.  It was a good ending. Nicely resolved for the most part but open enough to bring back the series. I really hope they renew it. This is too good a show to let go so early. 

[chaifan]

Great episode!  I'm glad Fallon is gone.  If there is a season 3, the Marquess and the Spartans don't have to reappear - they could easily send the Marquess on a grand tour again.  And I don't think Lydia will be in Bedlam forever - I could see her being there for just long enough to understand that she's in a precarious position.  Charles gets her out under the condition that she modify her ways or he could put her back.  I agree with other posts that the fact that a sole man has that type of power sucks, but it works as a plot device for me.  And I assume that we're done with Lady Fitz and Sophia - I think the characters have run their course so they can move away now. 

I also loved, absolutely loved, Cherry as Lydia's mini me.  I hope they keep Cherry parading around in the Lydia wig and dress, at the very least. 

As for Season Three, they could just move North, Charlotte, Lucy and the rest of the "family" to the US, and start Harlots - Virginia. 

[ferjy]

15 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Great episode!  I'm glad Fallon is gone.  If there is a season 3, the Marquess and the Spartans don't have to reappear - they could easily send the Marquess on a grand tour again.  And I don't think Lydia will be in Bedlam forever - I could see her being there for just long enough to understand that she's in a precarious position.  Charles gets her out under the condition that she modify her ways or he could put her back.  I agree with other posts that the fact that a sole man has that type of power sucks, but it works as a plot device for me.  And I assume that we're done with Lady Fitz and Sophia - I think the characters have run their course so they can move away now. 

I also loved, absolutely loved, Cherry as Lydia's mini me.  I hope they keep Cherry parading around in the Lydia wig and dress, at the very least. 

As for Season Three, they could just move North, Charlotte, Lucy and the rest of the "family" to the US, and start Harlots - Virginia. 

I don’t think it would be credible if they went that route. It wouldn’t be safe for Will and Jacob considering the slavery in the Colonies especially the South.

[OtterMommy]

7 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I don’t think it would be credible if they went that route. It wouldn’t be safe for Will and Jacob considering the slavery in the Colonies especially the South.

Exactly!  Also, even if the somehow ended up in the North (where slavery was still legal, although it was a *slightly* weaker institution there), they still would never be able to live as a family as they have been in London.

And how would everyone afford to go?  Yes, they have some mone...I've seen a figure of 5 pounds per person, but that doesn't include all you would need to bring with you (like food...these ships didn't have buffet line).  That's about $1000 in modern US dollars.  Again, that is *per person.*  Of course, there was the alternative of going over as an indentured servant, but they would have no control over where in the colonies they were going and were committing to about 7 years of service (which, while not as horrible as slavery, wasn't much better).  

[chaifan]

I was being facetious on the Harlots - Virginia bit, guys.  Sort of thought it was obvious, but I guess it wasn't. 

[ferjy]

44 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I was being facetious on the Harlots - Virginia bit, guys.  Sort of thought it was obvious, but I guess it wasn't. 

lol Well I knew the Harlots Virginia was tongue-in-cheek. Just wasn’t sure about the travelling to the U.S.

[tennisgurl]

This show is so awesome, and I have no idea why so many people are sleeping on it. Critics should be drooling over this show, Twitter should be eating it up, it should have cos-players, the whole nine yards. We need a season three, so I can praise this show to high heavens to all my friends and family that would watch a show with so many boobs. I will preach so hard that even Florence Scanwell would be proud.

[abbyzenn]

Something that I forgot to ask in my earlier post.  Was the girl that went to Blaine for his help with Lydia Lydia's daughter?  I thought I heard her call Lydia Ma in an earlier scene.  Funny how quickly she responded to his idea of going to bed - what about helping Lydia.  Also I noted how she quickly asked for 30 guineas - didn't Charlotte get 300?

[nodorothyparker]

That's Anne Pettifer, one of Lydia's "girls."  With Charlotte out and the house in upheaval, she seemed to be seeing a chance to move up in the world even before Lydia was hauled away.  Now that Lydia's locked up in the madhouse without any power or easily foreseeable way of getting herself out, she probably figured it was more beneficial for her to make nice with the rich powerful man showing interest in her.

Charlotte said she was paid 100 guineas, what we determined in the economics thread was a pretty extravagant amount for a roll in the tastefully appointed hay.  30 guineas is nothing to sneeze at either but she's not nearly as infamous as Charlotte is, which we've been told is part of her draw. 

[snowwhyte]

13 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

 

Charlotte said she was paid 100 guineas, what we determined in the economics thread was a pretty extravagant amount for a roll in the tastefully appointed hay.  30 guineas is nothing to sneeze at either but she's not nearly as infamous as Charlotte is, which we've been told is part of her draw. 

Plus Charlotte upped the price she was charging Blayne because she wanted to avoid sleeping with him and hoped a higher price might put him off. 

[ElizaD]

My favorite moment might have been Mrs. Scanwell's sermon. She sounded so damn satisfied.

This feels like a series finale. Everyone except Emily seemed pretty much okay, and I love her guts and sass so much that I hope she'll find some way to bounce back. But I would love, love a third season without the damn Spartans that was more about the business side of getting new culls, promoting the girls and establishing the house.

Lucy should have gotten a bit more screentime. We got her first reaction to Fallon, but nothing about what it did to her after she recovered. That last shot of her charming a cull felt like a quick "we might get cancelled, so if we do, here's a sign that she's okay despite discovering her big success was only another case of her not being meant for this job."

Really disappointed in Isabella. Even with Fallon's confession it would have been tough as hell to bring someone as powerful as the marquess to justice, but the moment a female character essentially decides to let a man go free to find another way of raping and murdering girls (just maybe a bit more carefully and less often because he came close to exposure), I lose my sympathy for her. Yes, Isabella wanted her money and her daughter. But it's still not a good look that she didn't seem to feel any conflict over what getting what's rightfully hers would mean for all the penniless non-Charlotte girls her brother would be free to rape in the future and who would suffer what she did without any of her advantages.

Anne Pettifer (the show's version of Pride & Prejudice's ruined gentlewoman Lydia, according to an interview I saw) is another dodgy upperclass female character. She went from Lydia lackey with a name to unrepentant accomplice to rape, first with her indifference in episode 5 to the news that they'd be hosting a "sacrifice" and this episode with her orders to Abigail.

[tennisgurl]

I suppose this could serve as a series finale, but I am hoping for a season three, and there are lots of avenues they could still explore. The Hunt/Amelia/Violet triangle, Emily trying to get herself back on top again, and, of course, Margaret getting back to England to reunite with her family. 

I dont blame Isabella for grabbing a chance for her own freedom and her daughters, but its still sad that she was willing to let her awful brother go and continue to brutalize innocent young girls. Those class differences do rear their ugly head at the worst kinds of times.

Lydia is an awful person who deserves to get what she deserves, but I do still find some tragedy in her being locked up in Bedlam on the word of just Charles. Its terrifying how easy it was to get locked away in such horrible conditions as a woman in that time, and Lydia is, if nothing else, a fiercely intelligent person, whos mind will be put to waste in such an awful place. Of course, she also cheerfully kidnapped countless innocent girls to be raped, and often killed, so...

Mrs. Scanwell looked so intensely satisfied giving that sermon! Even feeling some sadness at the fate of Lydia, that was great. 

I love how Nancy dragging a tied up guy with a bag over her head seems to be a pretty normal Tuesday on Harlots street.

Season three now? Come on Hulu, give the people what we want!

[nodorothyparker]

I wish I could remember now where I read it so I could link to it, but I came across a bit of commentary yesterday that saw Isabella's snatching what she could get over the other women's safety as a dramatic example of how traditionally disenfranchised people have been conditioned to turn on otherwise natural allies and take whatever smaller personal victories they they can get rather than remain strong as a united front against their oppressor in hopes of eventually benefiting everyone.   It was always going to be tough to convict someone like the Marquess with his apparently bottomless resources and connections, and if they had managed it the family name would have likely been ruined for Isabella to even try to come up with some plausible means of introducing Sophia to that society.  So in that light Isabella choosing her own interests feels believable if not particularly admirable.   I still wish we had at least seen a bit of internal conflict for her in making that choice to at least acknowledge that she knew she was doing that, but I realize that may be Liv Tyler's limitations as an actress showing through as much as anything.

 

8 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Anne Pettifer (the show's version of Pride & Prejudice's ruined gentlewoman Lydia, according to an interview I saw) is another dodgy upperclass female character. She went from Lydia lackey with a name to unrepentant accomplice to rape, first with her indifference in episode 5 to the news that they'd be hosting a "sacrifice" and this episode with her orders to Abigail.

I haven't seen that interview, but this makes total sense to me now.  Because Anne very well could have been how Lydia ended up without all the external effort to make the Wickham marriage happen in that book.  She was part of the interchangeable gaggle of women at Quigley's the first half of the season and now I'm curious to see what they do with her if we get a season 3 under the new house management because she has a very obvious eye for advancing herself.

[rollacoaster]

I am absolutely loving Harriet's evolution. I don't find her to be any more calculating or villainous than any other character on this show. She, like every other woman, is just trying to make her way in this world and take care of the people she cares about. I'm intrigued to see how her story unfolds next season, and I'm glad she found a community of color to set up house with who are supportive and hopefully trustworthy. Here's to her becoming a more well-drawn, complex character. 

[aradia22]

At first I was like... is Hunt going to carry on the grand tradition of Harlots by having secret conversations in very public places? But then he lied about the body so that was okay.

I have no patience for Lucy suddenly deciding to play detective NOW. Ugh, TSTL.

I did enjoy Cherry in a perfect recreation of Lydia's outfit.

I don't know the name of the new redhead but I like her. I appreciate that this show is not shy about giving these women backstories that enumerate the multitude of ways men can be awful.

Yeah, you dumbass. This is why you don't commit perjury and then ask questions later. I CAN'T with Lucy.

FUCK OFF, Harriet. I'm sure she still wants Will.

I feel like the actress who plays Lucy is... bad. Maybe I would feel more positively about the character if the actress didn't play her like such a waste of space. I was rolling my eyes at the prospect of her as a depressed alcoholic and then she started in on Justice Hunt. Look, little girl. At least he had some character development. 

The water pitcher was not enough. I was ready for Violet to run in and stab Fallon a hundred thousand times. Why is this seemingly the only show without guns???

On the one hand, I'm glad Lydia is an idiot and didn't go after Will. On the other hand, poor Webster. How racist is she that she's like, I'm sure the one black guy I met is the one who did this?

Lord, I'm gasping! I didn't know I needed Florence Scanwell exacting street vengeance on Fallon. HILARIOUS.

Of for God's sake, I do not not give a shit about Lord Fallon catching feelings for Lucy. I'll give it to the actor. He's doing a good job selling it. But this plotline is just tedious. God save me from Lucy and her breakthroughs and epiphanies. I DO NOT CARE.

Florence: "Geld him." WOO! Loving the new Florence.

The Spartans are three guys?

GARGH! With everything going on, it is a necessity that all the brothels employ more armed male guards. This is ridiculous. Lydia can just burst in with two guys? WTF? I don't care about the expense. This show is getting ridiculous with everyone bursting into each other's homes. 

Every action/adventure movie says don't leave someone tied up alone when they can escape or be rescued. Why is no one watching Fallon?

Given the way she returned her kiss last episode, I wonder how much of a relationship Margaret and Nancy had when they were young. 

GAH! Sophia. I'd like her better if she was at least skeptical or resistant to Quigley. What is it with tall, slim blonds on this show being nincompoops?

I'm glad Abigail at least managed to run away.

I'm not blaming Nell. I'm blaming Harriet for Charles finding out about the cushion. What kind of person learns a secret and then immediately tells everyone else in the house?

At least the lords didn't stick around. If they'd tried to hurt a hair on Nancy's head...

Why did no one bother stopping Anne?

"One male relative is all it takes." GOD DAMN.

Why couldn't Fallon man up and at least TRY to stab Blayne? He wouldn't have seen it coming.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Harriet heard that Margaret isn't dead. Well, that's great given how wonderful she is at keeping secrets. 

Bwahahaha. Still loving this new Florence. Getting to preach to Quigley in Bedlam? Perfection.

Loved Charlotte's final gown. Somehow colors that would look garish on anyone else look fashionable on her.

I'm sad Margaret is gone for now but it feels fitting for Charlotte to have thrown off Sir George and to be back home running the brothel.

[aradia22]

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Isabella is a fascinating and really not totally likable character. In the end her feeling of class difference from the others really did show. I'm sure she feels sorry in some way for what she did but at the same time feels totally justified. So her entire family is saved, she gets her money and her daughter, and meanwhile a bunch of beasts will find another Priestess and continue on to rape and murder girls she probably won't ever think about because they're so far beneath her. In the end, how much do the lives of some innocent poor women count against the life of her raping, murderous, incestuous brother?

I'm not ready to condemn her to this degree. I'll be interested to see where they go with her in season 3. I didn't really think Blayne would free her that easily. I thought he might say that he would and then just do whatever he wanted. Why not? He's operated almost consequence free for years. I think her behavior makes sense given what we know of her backstory. She knows Blayne is a monster but she's also very sheltered and naive enough to think that she can bargain with Blayne to keep Charlotte safe. Given what happened to her, I think she would absolutely care about the possible future victims of the Spartans. But she and her daughter are her primary focus. This is the closest she's been to freedom in years. At least as many years as her daughter is old (which had to be at least 16). Maybe she even consoles herself with the thought that by finally having access to her fortune she has more agency to act in the world. 

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Throughout the past two seasons, I think one of the greatest recurring themes of this show has been the unfair advantage of men, and the comparative powerlessness of women in this society.

This is one of the biggest selling points for me, tied to the fact that with female writers, directors, etc. that powerlessness and in particular the violence against women hasn't felt exploitative or like an afterthought. 

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I totally get that Isabella was in a tough position, but she lost me when she said that Charlotte had just abandoned her and essentially blamed her for what happened. Bitch, please. She got your daughter out of that boarding school and gave her a place to hide. It's not her fault that Quigley figured out where Sophia was. And sorry that Charlotte was so distracted by HER MOTHER BEING HANGED that she wasn't at your beck and call every second of the day.

I agree but, as usual, I think it makes sense from the POV of the character. Isabella goes out but I get the sense that she's usually in the company of her brother and the way she's been behaving this season has been out of the ordinary (going out alone, staying out all night, etc.). So for this very sheltered person, Charlotte is the first person she has trusted in years. And even though rationally it doesn't make sense, Charlotte not being there in what Isabella must have thought was her greatest hour of need confirmed for her that she can only rely on herself... which is probably what she's used to after years of living with Blayne. I read it as a solitary person putting all those walls back up around herself. To be fair, even though the girl gang (Florence, Charlotte, Nancy, fine... even Lucy) was awesome, they're not especially powerful allies. 

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I couldn’t believe the Justice was in the bar the entire episode almost. C’mon don’t just give up and become a drunk...it’s only been one season. 

[...] Amelia, Justice and Violet love triangle for Season 3. 

Yeah, I don't know if he's getting his job back but I can definitely see Amelia being his moral conscience and Violet feeding him tips from the underworld... and then him turning on both of them when he realizes they've been having an affair under his nose.

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I sort of hate Harriet. I try to like her but she’s so calculating. William seriously Margaret will be back. 

Same. I feel bad hating the somewhat empowered, only well-educated black female character on the show. But she's so annoying. And I know I would hate her if she were played by a white actress (not as though that would make sense with her backstory but you get my point). You don't go after another woman's man like that. Also, she's so insufferably superior. 

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  ON 8/22/2018 AT 12:55 PM, ABBYZENN SAID:

During the Fallon death scene I thought he was going to stab Blaine (maybe just wishful thinking).

Oh, SAME. I kept hoping he'd do it, then he didn't. 

It was annoying because I was like... stabbing is your THING, dude. Just go for it.

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I really, really missed the hearty laughter and heaving bosom of Margaret Wells...it made her absence feel more devastating.

She has a great cackling laugh. None of the younger girls are as fun as Nancy and Margaret when they're gossiping. 

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While I'm sure she'd say she's not happy about it that her choice leaves her brother free to do the terrible things he does, I can also well imagine her thinking that the women like Charlotte she's met are a resourceful bunch who will surely figure something out.  It's a very self-interested decision.

Good point. I think like a lot of wealthy (usually white) women, she may even rationalize it to herself that she has it worse. Because those women have each other and they have more capacity to take on the world. I wouldn't underestimate the damage of her brother's years of psychological torture and undermining. It reminds me of that scene where Rasselas first returns to Lydia Quigley and he's like... everything's terrible and my lover died (I forget the exact lines) and she keeps being like also me. Girl, this is not about you. Stop equating someone else's pain with your pain. They're not the same. Especially because I think she compared losing Charles (who's still alive) to him losing his boyfriend. 

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Blayne freeing Fallon and scoffing at him letting women do that to him make me think (hope) that Blayne will meet his death at the center of a pack of women with knives.

Yes, please.

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 Yet terrifying at the same time how someone can be put away so easily because she’s a woman. 

Hell. Charlotte Perkins Gilman. Zelda Fitzgerald. Sylvia Plath. Girl, Interrupted. I'm not saying many women don't have mental health issues but there is a long history that stretches way, way back (at least to Antigone) of people doing things to make women crazy, telling them they're crazy, and then treating them like they're crazy... usually by locking them up and not giving them the support they could use to possibly get better.

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That's Anne Pettifer, one of Lydia's "girls."  With Charlotte out and the house in upheaval, she seemed to be seeing a chance to move up in the world even before Lydia was hauled away.  Now that Lydia's locked up in the madhouse without any power or easily foreseeable way of getting herself out, she probably figured it was more beneficial for her to make nice with the rich powerful man showing interest in her.

I have little interest in Charles. But even though she was thwarting the people we're rooting for the last few episodes, I would be interested in seeing Anne take over. Again, she's got a backstory of being something like gentry and then being abandoned which is a different start to harlotry than the majority of the other girls. I imagine she has some salty feelings about men and it would interesting to get her perspective on the other women. She isn't a working class girl taught how to behave like a lady. She's a lady who has learned to be a harlot. 

[Scarlett45]

This was a great season. I enjoyed reading your commentary. 

[jnymph]

Random thoughts and late to the party, but.....

I loved the music played at the end.  It fit so perfectly !  

I hate Harriet too.  Find your own damn man.   

I completely miss Margaret, but the hope of her return will ensure my return.

I love Nancy.    

[Roseanna]

On 8/22/2018 at 8:57 AM, PinkRibbons said:

Isabella is a fascinating and really not totally likable character. In the end her feeling of class difference from the others really did show. I'm sure she feels sorry in some way for what she did but at the same time feels totally justified. So her entire family is saved, she gets her money and her daughter, and meanwhile a bunch of beasts will find another Priestess and continue on to rape and murder girls she probably won't ever think about because they're so far beneath her. In the end, how much do the lives of some innocent poor women count against the life of her raping, murderous, incestuous brother?

 

On 8/22/2018 at 12:21 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I totally get that Isabella was in a tough position, but she lost me when she said that Charlotte had just abandoned her and essentially blamed her for what happened. Bitch, please. She got your daughter out of that boarding school and gave her a place to hide. It's not her fault that Quigley figured out where Sophia was. And sorry that Charlotte was so distracted by HER MOTHER BEING HANGED that she wasn't at your beck and call every second of the day.

Don't get me wrong - I understand that Isabella's priority was protecting her daughter which required getting out from under Blayne's financial control, but it was just her attitude that rubbed me the wrong way. Charlotte did what she promised to do, which was get Sophia from the boarding school and keep her hidden. Charlotte isn't psychic so she couldn't have known that Quigley would bust into Greek Street to take Sophia away.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 3:16 PM, snowwhyte said:

Lady Fitz was protecting her own reputation and lifestyle as much as anything with her actions. She would have been tainted by association. I think she is underestimating Blayne's obsession with her though. She may have access to some money and a house but he still has all the power. He could have her committed alongside Lydia and then take custody of Sofia.

 

On 8/22/2018 at 10:36 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I love how layered this whole thing was written.  Isabella was coming off pretty cavalierly in those first scenes in the Wells house, where Charlotte has just lost her mother telling her that she might as well do something productive and help her out some more since she's not doing anything at that particular moment.   And on the surface level, yeah, it does read very much like oh yes, that is too bad that my brother is part of the Spartans Very Bad Men Murder Club that rapes and kills women this society deems disposable but MY fortune and MY kid, so you understand, right?    I don't doubt that there's some real classism at play there because she is an aristocrat and everything about their world tells them that their lives matter more than those of the poor hapless girls her brother's club is hurting. 

Yet at the same time, her big secret is no longer a secret.  Her daughter is now vulnerable.  Her brother is threatening to lock her away in Bedlam.    She doesn't have any more rights than a child to do much about any of it.  So it becomes somewhat understandable if not terribly laudable that in that moment she grabs the chance before her to make all of that go away to protect herself and her child.  While I'm sure she'd say she's not happy about it that her choice leaves her brother free to do the terrible things he does, I can also well imagine her thinking that the women like Charlotte she's met are a resourceful bunch who will surely figure something out.  It's a very self-interested decision.

 

On 8/24/2018 at 10:39 AM, ElizaD said:

Really disappointed in Isabella. Even with Fallon's confession it would have been tough as hell to bring someone as powerful as the marquess to justice, but the moment a female character essentially decides to let a man go free to find another way of raping and murdering girls (just maybe a bit more carefully and less often because he came close to exposure), I lose my sympathy for her. Yes, Isabella wanted her money and her daughter. But it's still not a good look that she didn't seem to feel any conflict over what getting what's rightfully hers would mean for all the penniless non-Charlotte girls her brother would be free to rape in the future and who would suffer what she did without any of her advantages.

 

On 8/24/2018 at 6:37 PM, tennisgurl said:

I dont blame Isabella for grabbing a chance for her own freedom and her daughters, but its still sad that she was willing to let her awful brother go and continue to brutalize innocent young girls. Those class differences do rear their ugly head at the worst kinds of times.

 

On 7/12/2019 at 8:32 AM, aradia22 said:

I agree but, as usual, I think it makes sense from the POV of the character. Isabella goes out but I get the sense that she's usually in the company of her brother and the way she's been behaving this season has been out of the ordinary (going out alone, staying out all night, etc.). So for this very sheltered person, Charlotte is the first person she has trusted in years. And even though rationally it doesn't make sense, Charlotte not being there in what Isabella must have thought was her greatest hour of need confirmed for her that she can only rely on herself... which is probably what she's used to after years of living with Blayne. I read it as a solitary person putting all those walls back up around herself. To be fair, even though the girl gang (Florence, Charlotte, Nancy, fine... even Lucy) was awesome, they're not especially powerful allies.

Everybody in this show puts his/her own priorities first (even Noth as he helping Harriet "kept his promise") , so why would Isabella be different. She is simply human. Cf. Charles who couldn't let her mum be hanged.

Besides, I doubt if Fallon's confession would have accepted in the court as it made under duress.

Not to speak of that Blayne such a good villain that he is needed in the series.

Instead, Fallon proved to be a weakling whose nerves broke down very easily. He could kill helpless women but he had no guts. No Spartan at all!