S01.E07: Falling

[annlaw78]

11 hours ago, Buttless said:

The double standard argument that a man who slept with a 18 year old would be gross, and so a woman should be too, is in bad faith. There  are power differentials already set up, thanks to our culture, that make these unequal comparisons from the start. At the root of why it's bad,  is a power differential between the partners, where someone is getting played; coerced; groomed. None of those things were at play in this story between Camille and John. She checked him in, gave him a bottle of water and told him to sleep it off. John was the one who initiated everything. And at 18, he is not too young to have sex. If youre worried about the law, the law OKed John to have sex too. Camille didnt lead John on. John didnt force Camille, or promise her anything ... the consternation and disgust over this point in the story is overwrought and irrelevant.

Not sure it is really an irrelevant point, as it’s engendered so much discussion.  I would respectfully disagree there are cultural power differentials that make it acceptable, say, for a 25 year old female teacher to sleep with an 18 year old senior, but unacceptable if the genders are flipped.  Camille may not be in a position of authority over John, but she’s old enough that I find her thing with John to be squiffy, regardless of their genders.  Mileage certainly may vary, of course. I see the John thing as just one more in a long line of bad decisions Camille has made since returning home, fueled by vodka, triggers, memories, and Mommy Dearest. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by annlaw78

[Schmolioot]

5 minutes ago, annlaw78 said:

Not sure it is really an irrelevant point, as it’s engendered so much discussion.  I would respectfully disagree there are cultural power differentials that make it acceptable, say, for a 25 year old female teacher to sleep with an 18 year old senior, but unacceptable if the genders are flipped.  Camille may not be in a position of authority over John, but she’s old enough that I find her thing with John to be squiffy, regardless of their genders.  Mileage certainly may vary, of course. I see the John thing as just one more in a long line of bad decisions Camille has made since returning home, fueled by vodka, triggers, memories, and Mommy Dearest. 

Camille may not have intended to have sex with him but she gave him some horrible advice that led them to that hotel room where it probably became inevitable.

She told him that he shouldn’t turn himself in drunk so he should hide out at the hotel until he sobered up. Sounds reasonable enough, but all he really needs to do is turn himself in and ask for a lawyer. Then the problem is solved. Maybe she just saw a kindred spirit or something and wanted to help, but it was horrible advice that ultimately put them both in a bad spot.

Then again, this same woman was in a weird, creepy and near sexual situation with her 13 year old sister less than 24 hours earlier so this is a consistent problem for her

Im starting to think Camille has some really deep psychological issues she needs to work on lol

[annlaw78]

1 minute ago, Schmolioot said:

Camille may not have intended to have sex with him but she gave him some horrible advice that led them to that hotel room where it probably became inevitable.

She told him that he shouldn’t turn himself in drunk so he should hide out at the hotel until he sobered up. Sounds reasonable enough, but all he really needs to do is turn himself in and ask for a lawyer. Then the problem is solved. Maybe she just saw a kindred spirit or something and wanted to help, but it was horrible advice that ultimately put them both in a bad spot.

Then again, this same woman was in a weird, creepy and near sexual situation with her 13 year old sister less than 24 hours earlier so this is a consistent problem for her

Im starting to think Camille has some really deep psychological issues she needs to work on lol

I wanted Camille to tell John as they led him away in handcuffs not to say anything without a lawyer!!!

[peach]

Imagine if Camille went alongside Vickery with a search warrant for Ashley's house, and they found her in bed with Richard. 

[Schmolioot]

4 minutes ago, peach said:

Imagine if Camille went alongside Vickery with a search warrant for Ashley's house, and they found her in bed with Richard. 

The other thing with Camille having sex with John is this:

Is she really 100% zero doubt that he’s innocent?

 I don’t see how she could be. Just a really weird decision 

[peach]

36 minutes ago, Mothra said:

Your mentioning the grossness and abuse involved in the pig operation has made me think of this:  although Adora is very proud of her roots (she practically came all over herself watching Amma portray Millie Calhoun's torture), I'm not sure that family money from a hog-raising and slaughtering operation is all that genteel, no matter how many generations it goes back.  Adora tells the photographer who was taking pictures of the ivory floor that she is descended from the Calhouns and the Preakinses, that the Calhouns had the name and the Preakinses the money.  Where your money comes from (and how "old" it is) was very important in the old south, and while "Calhoun" is indeed a noble old southern name, "Preakins" sounds downright trashy.  I'm not sure what (if anything) this means, but the contrast between the two names is pretty stark imo.

It was probably bootlegging, with pigs on the side.

Just now, Schmolioot said:

The other thing with Camille having sex with John is this:

Is she really 100% zero doubt that he’s innocent?

 I don’t see how she could be. Just a really weird decision 

But he's sensitive.

[Roxie]

Regarding the last song, Shazaam said it was The Everly Brothers.

And taking another look at the scene where Alan starts listening to the record, you can see the Everly Brothers LP cover in the background.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Roxie
Additional info

[LeGrandElephant]

I hope its not true that they remove the pigs teeth (while they're alive??). That seems horrible and unnecessary torture. I know farm animals are tortured in all sorts of ways like being kept in small crates, but I can't see the economic benefit to the teeth thing so I just hope it isn't really done. But if it is, its terrible detective work for the police not to have known that when they were talking about how much strength it takes and testing it out. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by LeGrandElephant

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

yes, she had some bad shit happen in her life. so did i, but i'm not a slut/alcholic fucking guys 20 years younger and hanging out with 13 year olds.

Can we please, please put a moratorium on calling Camille, or any other woman on that matter, a slut? I beg of the universe.

 

Was Camille having sex with John appropriate? From a legal standpoint, yes, she's in the clear. From a journalistic standpoint, no. However, do I understand why she did it? Yes, which is why I am disappointed instead of angry. I cannot imagine how painful her life has been and sometimes the desire to connect overrides good judgement. I don't need characters I like or care about to make the perfect choice 100% of the time; I just need to understand motivations behind it.

I also work in healthcare, so I, too, was confused as to how Jackie would have any standing whatsoever to ask to see Marian's medical records. Unless Adora signed a release, which there's not a shot in hell she would have done, Jackie would have no way of gaining that information. I'm honestly wondering why she did it; she should've been smart enough to know it would be denied. The only justification I can think of is that if Adora somehow knew about the request, maybe Jackie thought Adora would back off on harming Amma to avoid suspicion. 

The main thing throwing me on the murders if Adora is the culprit is just that I do not buy her pulling out teeth. That takes a lot of force and a lot of hate. That's where the Adora as a murderer theory falls flat for me because I can't justify it on a motivation or physical level.

Edited August 21, 2018 by PepSinger

[peach]

30 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

The main thing throwing me on the murders if Adora is the culprit is just that I do not buy her pulling out teeth. That takes a lot of force and a lot of hate. That's where the Adora as a murderer theory falls flat for me because I can't justify it on a motivation or physical level.

But could she get someone else to do it for her?

[Dminches]

7 minutes ago, peach said:

But could she get someone else to do it for her?

If Adora is responsible for the murders then she definitely had help.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Dminches

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Oh, he wasn't? I didn't realize that.

I am assuming because he had never met Camille before. I think he would have known her had he been around during Marion's death. But that is an assumption. 

[peach]

22 minutes ago, Dminches said:

If Adora is responsible for the murders then she definitely had help.

Maybe that's dropping us a little clue when she always hands things over to Gayla, like cutting the apple.  She always has Alan helping her do simple things.  She made Alan tell Camille to leave.  Adora always has help.

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I hope its not true that they remove the pigs teeth (while they're alive??). That seems horrible and unnecessary torture. I know farm animals are tortured in all sorts of ways like being kept in small crates, but I can't see the economic benefit to the teeth thing so I just hope it isn't really done. But if it is, its terrible detective work for the police not to have known that when they were talking about how much strength it takes and testing it out. 

They pull out the pigs’ teeth while they are alive so the pigs can’t bite them. Absolutely abusive and disgusting.

[Mothra]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

They're Preaker, not Preakins.

Thanks--fixed it.

[MBayGal]

I could swear that someone here mentioned the song "Last Kiss" as one thst sounds sweet from the singer, but the words are horrid.  After I read the article about where the show's exteriors were filmed -- Barnesville GA -- (thanks WovenLoaf, I think?), I looked up Barnesville and found it is connected to "Last Kiss":

"Barnesville was the location of an auto accident that killed 16-year-old Jeanette Clark, who was on a date with J.L. Hancock, also 16, on December 22, 1962. This accident was rumored to be the inspiration of the hit song "Last Kiss" written by Wayne Cochran, Joe Carpenter, Randall Hoyal & Bobby McGlon (1961). Hancock was driving a 1954 Chevrolet on the Saturday before Christmas with some friends. In heavy traffic on U.S. Highway 341 their car hit a tractor-trailer carrying a load of logs. Clark, Hancock and Wayne Cooper were killed. Cochran lived on Georgia's Route 19/41 when he wrote "Last Kiss", only 15 miles away from the crash site. He rerecorded "Last Kiss" for release on King Records in 1963 and dedicated it to Clark, a fact which probably explains the association of the song with the tragic crash."

[Emily Thrace]

14 hours ago, Tvfangirl said:

She was envisioning her mom lure the girls off, so yes, I do think she believes it is Adora. 

I wonder if that actually was what happened and Adora had a partner. My money would be on Anne's father (because Adora has been so protective of him) or the history teacher because he's a raping asshole. They came together because Adora saw they are a like and possibly even groomed him.

[Butless]

On 8/21/2018 at 8:35 AM, BingeyKohan said:

Unpopular opinion I'll express: I think the word appearances can be kind of silly. I hardly noticed any this episode, though I read Vulture's recaps of them. When Camille drives by and watches John getting hauled from his house by Vickery graffiti on the curb reads 'whine.' Maybe that's a take-off from what it read before, and the idea is the word retains many characteristics of the word it was before Camille reimagined it (another example on Vulture: a Railroad Crossing sign turns to "Dumpling" - presumably only retaining the ING in Crossing). But why would Camille see that and think 'whine'? It makes her want to whine, like a child? The whine of sirens? Some of the word morphing has an absurd, almost comic quality that doesn't match the tone of the show, and because Camille doesn't 'react' to the words, or shake them off so they go back to normal, we don't really know how she feels about them - does she agree turning the word "Caterpillar" on a tractor into "Catfight" is kind of a dumb pun, not even poetic in terms of syllable count? Does she think to herself, Camille, you're so corny? I don't know why this bothers me! I suppose it matches the very impulsive word choices she made (in some instances) for her own skin. I mean some of them I get, as an outer expression of inner torment, but some of them really do sound like words you'd write in Sharpie on a bathroom stall.

Thanks for articulating what I feel about the words that appears. It was mentioned somewhere in a review that it was 'poetic license', made to invoke a feelings. But I find most of the words either too obvious ("Queasy"), or too stupid, for them to invoke any other feeling but irritation.  IMO, this bit of stylistic hoohah is not going to age well. And god help us if it catches on in other storytelling, due to the popularity of this show.

"'Curl' on a log," should be a metaphor for something pretentious that misses the mark, and just sounds dumb.

I also dont know if Ive been influenced by all of this, because instead of remembering the name of the show, Sharp Objects, I keep thinking of it as Sharper Images. Make of that what you will ;p

On 8/21/2018 at 9:03 AM, TattleTeeny said:

The original poster did none of this; the rest of her post above the one bit you quoted illustrates that she gets all of this and doesn't need a somewhat (and hopefully unintentionally) pedantic rehash. It's possible to find something unappealing and also understand its place in the narrative of a fictional story. It's also fine to see that Camille's actions are in fact a problem; her healing has zero to do with a murder investigation, no matter how shoddy that investigation seems to be, with or without her.

There's a simple matter of reading comprehension fail here, in your assertion. The poster did mention a list  of reasons, as were quoted in my post. But with that one statement, she stripped the context and reframed it into something it wasnt. Camille didnt use a grieving teenage boy. It's fine for someone to find the concept of sex with an 18 year old "gross" (whatever that means; its a vague term), due to your own preferences.  But its disingenuous to change the context of the story into something it was not.  You can still disagree with the context, as it is, but I guess if you cant articulate it beyond 'it's gross,' then you really arent explaining to anyone else why or how it's so "gross."

On 8/21/2018 at 9:38 AM, jeansheridan said:

Way harsh Tai! I don't like him, but he wasn't around when Marion died and we don't know when Jackie tried to get the records or when he heard the rumors. Nobody mentioned Amma being sickly before this last ep. We saw a tantrum but Adora encourages that behavior. And the sheriff has seen Amma skating around town like a Queen Bee. He knows she is a bit of a wild child. 

His reaction when they found Natalie struck me as sincere and heartfelt. And maybe it has blinded him to investigating broader. It's hard to know what he is thinking. But he notices things. BB holes in stop signs, how to play Kelsey so she will help him, that the skater girls move in threes usually. He's flawed but I don't think evil.

I  dont think Im the only one who finds him corrupt!  i think he was written that way ;p  

First, I get the feeling that he was around Wind Gap all his life, and probably grew up with everyone. Jackie calles him "Billy," not  sheriff. So unless he's a cousin or something, they probably knew each other before he became sheriff.

Regardless, Vickery shows he knows about the "rumors" about Adora killing her daughter, as well as the fact that Jackie looked into the medical records, because he likewise knows about the nurse who questioned whether Adora was at fault. he mentions all of this to Richard, and tries to smear that nurse, who lost her job over trying to get someone to look into it. So he knew. And he chose to ignore it, I guess, so he could keep his huge schnozz up Adoras ass, and keep his position as sheriff.

Im sure his reaction to Natalie was sincere. He was probably sincerely sad and upset to see a dead child. Just like Jackie was sad to see a dead Marian.  But just like Jackie, he's been doing an awful lot to ignore the  obvious. He's done an awful lot not to investigate anyone but who he deems outsiders; ie, the Mexican workers and John Keene. His sadness or upset at finding Natalie dead should have done the very opposite of "blinding him to investigate broader." That doesnt make any sense tht youd find a dead child and not try to get off your ass to  do more to find the killer.  He's sen a lot of things, like ∫b shots in signs, as you point out. And that's the problem. He should be preoccupying himself with other more important things than that. Neither of the little girls were killed by Bb gun.

The only reason John was thought to be guilty, at that point,  was that he cried too much, and didnt adhere to how the men of Wind Gap were supposed to, in the face of massive grief.  The sheriff's a dumb narrowminded shitbag who's pointedly not investigating anyone but the sacrificial  (outsider) lamb. How corrupt of a person do you have to be to railroad an 18 yr old, because youre beholden to a person like Adora, to be deemed  "evil"?   "Playing Kelsey" is also a sign of corruption.  He needs evidence to railroad this kid, so he appeals to her stupid vanity, and tells her of she just gives him what he wants, she can be on TV. He took it several steps over the line there, and that;s how  cops we deem corrupt can set the ball rolling on an innocent person. They got blood, but did Ashley also tell him that that the blood may have gotten there when she was in a fight with Natalie?

On 8/21/2018 at 10:33 AM, Black Knight said:

Someone else we don't know about is the housekeeper. I don't think she's a live-in housekeeper, but she's certainly over at Adora's a great deal of the time. It's hard to see how she could not know what happened with Marian and what is happening with Amma, but she's a black woman in a service occupation who would be accusing a white woman who's the richest person in town, a town that thinks it's A-OK to glorify the Confederacy.

In Jackie's case, didn't Camille say that Jackie had made requests for each of the medical files and been denied every time? Or did I misunderstand what Camille was saying there? Without those medical files, Jackie's options were limited as she had no evidence. Law enforcement could have gotten those medical files, as Richard showed, but Vickery sure didn't bother, and the nurse who did have access to the medical files was promptly fired when she tried to do something.

I dont know why the nurse or Jackiw couldnt have called social services on Adora. At least for Amma, if it was too late for Marian. Well Jackie could have called social services on Marian, for sure. I dont knwo what could be more evil than watching a person poison a child to death , slowly. Jackie has no excuse, neither does Vickery, who seems to have known something was wrong, also, and ignored it.  Whether or no he's turned a corner with noting that Amma is sick again, we'll see  next Sunday night.

On 8/21/2018 at 10:45 AM, Blakeston said:

I, for one, have a problem with someone in their thirties having sex with a grieving teenager who's contemplating suicide. No gender combination makes that okay. The teenager being barely legal doesn't make that okay, either.

And it's also grossly unethical for a journalist to sleep with someone at the center of a murder investigation that they're reporting on. She represents a light of hope for an innocent boy not to be framed for murder. She shouldn't be sleeping with him.

That's a point I havent seen. But I doubt very much that it wouldnt be an eveb biggers tory byt the next person to write about John, that the journalist who originally covered the story found him to be innocent, and even slept with him. So, no; she wasnt going to be his only chance at redemption. Camille is not the only juournalist in America who can get his story out, or who would even cover him , if he went up for the murder of two little girls, o ne his own sister.

John was contemplating suicide before she took him to sleep it off in the motel. So she saved him from driving his car in the lake, at that moment. if you want to be literal. But if her sleeping with John is worse in your estimation than saving his life right then, then that's your priorities, I guess.

On 8/21/2018 at 12:30 PM, Black Knight said:

A reporter getting caught by the police in a motel room fucking the murder suspect she knows they now have a warrant out for the arrest of in the murders she's reporting on? It'd destroy her career as a journalist if it got out. And that is a big deal. What kind of job would she  be able to get after being fired and having her name and picture going viral on every tabloid on the web and in print both? Every prospective employer who googled her would see all that come up, and she could kiss her chances of any good job goodbye. She'd end up with some crappy part-time job with terrible pay and no benefits. Yeah, that'll really help her life. So, just terrible decision-making all around.

And for what, really? I understood the sweetness to her of the interlude with John, but again, it was just temporary relief. It did nothing to heal her in any permanent way; no interlude is going to do that. Only long, intensive work on herself with the help of a very good therapist can. And in any case I think most of the value to her was actually in the non-sexual part, in his seeing and reading her body. Learning that he thinks she's fuckable after seeing her body? She could've gotten that validation, if she needed it, without actually engaging in the sex. The fact that she lucked out in that because she's a Preaker she won't face any long-term consequences for something that only brought her a few minutes of relief and comfort doesn't change she made terrible decisions here.

Wow; way to denigrate anyone making a living in a nonprofessional job ! She's making shit money , as it is, being a reporter on shitty newspaper that cant even afford to put her up in a hotel , motel, b&b, whatever. Look at her clothes and the car she's driving.

I had no idea that people were parsing the  Camille/John interlude down to  the idea that it was the actual sex with him that helped heal Camille. The actual sex is not the deal.   If youre hung up on just the sex, again, where is any of the context that belongs to this story?  If youre only focused on his penis going into her vagina , or whatever, then youve lost the context, or maybe you dont understand it. Camille didnt need anyone to validate that she was "fuckable."That is missing the point of that scene with a bazooka.

I have a few things that point to John still being the killer.

1) Where the heck does he go when they find Nat's body in the alleyway? He's in the square with Camille, Amma and her posse, just feet away from where Nat was found. When the old couple who found her starts a commotion, everyone runs to that alley, except for John. The last we see of him is a shot of the others in the alley way and the back of his head in the forefront of the frame. At that point, his sister is missing. Why wouldnt he have run over there, or someone run back over to him, to hold him back or be with him? It's never addressed at all, and that is just so weird.

2) He still only tells Camille that he never killed his sister.  Doesnt mention Ann. And he really didnt like her.

3) He made up a plausible "story" for the 'why' he killed the girls. Ok; that was a story, we are to believe. But he said they pull out the hog's teeth and that there it feels good (a release) when the tooth finally pops out.  That, is real. And it's what Richard said, when he did his experiment on the pig head, also.

Im not saying he's the killer; just that those things left in show still lcause some doubt.  But who know? I implicated Mr Lacy  a while back and no one believes that, either.

23 hours ago, msrachelj said:

this show is making me swear off pork.at least when it's not humanely raise and bought at the farmers market. well, that goes for all meat. but i can barely handle thinking about the abuse. 

The piglets feeding on their momma's teats !  The fact that they are intelligent enough to know what's going on. Thry fact that they pull their fucking teeth , when they are only trying to defend themselves...jesus wept.

And the utter cruelty of those asshole teenagers chasing a piglet around, throwing themselves on it. John was there, too, watching it. Mr Sensitive.

22 hours ago, annlaw78 said:

Not sure it is really an irrelevant point, as it’s engendered so much discussion.  I would respectfully disagree there are cultural power differentials that make it acceptable, say, for a 25 year old female teacher to sleep with an 18 year old senior, but unacceptable if the genders are flipped.  Camille may not be in a position of authority over John, but she’s old enough that I find her thing with John to be squiffy, regardless of their genders.  Mileage certainly may vary, of course. I see the John thing as just one more in a long line of bad decisions Camille has made since returning home, fueled by vodka, triggers, memories, and Mommy Dearest.

I meant specifically there that it's irrelevant to say that 18 year olds shouldnt have sex, if that was one of the reasons why its considered "gross,"because they do , and they're allowed to, by law. YVMM, personally, bassed on your values and morals, for sure. But only for yourself. If youre 18 and dont think its right, then dont have sex with anyone at 18. Problem solved.

You mention that Camille wasnt in a position of power over him. So it's not relevant to the story, to use an example where a woman does have power over an 18 yr old (teacher /student).  That is an example of a pronounced power differential.

Men,by the cultural mores alone, already have had a long and detailed edge over women when it comes to them being in positions of power. Just their physical strength alone would put the man at the very least in a kind of position of power over a woman.  John is by far the stronger of him and Camille.  She in fact, pushes him away from touching her, at first  and says no to him touching her or looking at her arm.

Personally, irl, I look at an 18 year old and to me a kiss on the cheek and a pat on the head is the furthest I would even want to go.   So it  get it, on a visceral level.  But it doesnt serve the context of the story. That's just my personal anecdotal evidence from the 18 year olds Ive known, recently.   I think the more controversial aspect is that theyve been drinking. But again, she initiated nothing but checking him into the motel, giving him water and telling him to sleep it off.

22 hours ago, Schmolioot said:

Camille may not have intended to have sex with him but she gave him some horrible advice that led them to that hotel room where it probably became inevitable.

She told him that he shouldn’t turn himself in drunk so he should hide out at the hotel until he sobered up. Sounds reasonable enough, but all he really needs to do is turn himself in and ask for a lawyer. Then the problem is solved. Maybe she just saw a kindred spirit or something and wanted to help, but it was horrible advice that ultimately put them both in a bad spot.

Then again, this same woman was in a weird, creepy and near sexual situation with her 13 year old sister less than 24 hours earlier so this is a consistent problem for her

Im starting to think Camille has some really deep psychological issues she needs to work on lol

She gave him good advice. You cant predict what will happen and what you will say when the cops arrest you. He needed to sleep it off.  n what world would anyone encourage someone to go to the cops, drunk? That also makes you look guilty and stupid.

And that seems like a willful misreading of Camille's relationship with Amma. Amma is the one who's being inappropriate. Camille has admittedly been drunk or high during a couple of these inappropriate instances, but the majority of the time, she's been sisterly to Amma.  And at times, she's been overwhelmed by Amma's weird or shitty behavior. She only just met this girl. No doubt Camille's got problems, but sexualizing her sister isnt one of them.

22 hours ago, peach said:

Imagine if Camille went alongside Vickery with a search warrant for Ashley's house, and they found her in bed with Richard. 

Why? Why should anyone imagine something that has no bearing on the show we're watching, at all?

22 hours ago, Schmolioot said:

The other thing with Camille having sex with John is this:

Is she really 100% zero doubt that he’s innocent?

 I don’t see how she could be. Just a really weird decision 

Why does she have to be 100% sure? No one is 100% sure of anyone else in this world. If youre married, you re not even 100% sure of your partner on everything.

You know what was wrong with that sex scene?  i didnt see John put on a rubber.

22 hours ago, peach said:

But he's sensitive.

Oh; that explains why he didnt use a rubber, then.

22 hours ago, Roxie said:

Regarding the last song, Shazaam said it was The Everly Brothers.

And taking another look at the scene where Alan starts listening to the record, you can see the Everly Brothers LP cover in the background.

You can tell it by their voices. Theyre very distinct, as a duo.

15 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I wonder if that actually was what happened and Adora had a partner. My money would be on Anne's father (because Adora has been so protective of him) or the history teacher because he's a raping asshole. They came together because Adora saw they are a like and possibly even groomed him.

I cant see Alan doing it any more than I can see Adora.  Or either of them strong enough to fight a 10 year old child? I think they didnt do it though, mainly, because theyd be noticed anywhere. 

Im not sure how Adora would come together with Mr Lacy. I dont think they even talked or exchanged a look even  on Calhoun Day.  i do wonder though how Mr Lacy and Amma's other teachers didnt suspect something was up with Amma & Adora, after seeing how thick her med records were.  

If Mr Lacy is involved, I think he'd be involved in it with Amma. That exchange they had in the school breezeway was weird, and possibly hinted at something other than it was? Mrs Lacy giving him and Amma the stink eye was  pretty pointed too, but who knows what that was about. So many dirty looks given in this show, and I dount theat theyre all going to be explained.

I think Ann's dad didnt do it. Which  could be the reason  he did!   But he seems  even less suspect than Ashley or John.

Rewatching, and there are a tons of scenes of the roller girls going by the murder site of Natalie. So much so that it looks like a motif.  The 2 or 3 angels of death, on wheels.   Im thinking that  3 girls could lift an other dead girl.  Maybe Mr Lacy or the boys in the posse drove the car that was needed to transport the bodies? They have that golf cart, but isnt it uncovered? A body would have to be tarped and tied down in it, if there's even room for a 4th body on it.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Buttless

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

There's a simple matter of reading comprehension fail here, in your assertion. The poster did mention a list  of reasons, as were quoted in my post. But with that one statement, she stripped the context and reframed it into something it wasnt. Camille didnt use a grieving teenage boy. It's fine for someone to find the concept of sex with an 18 year old "gross" (whatever that means; its a vague term), due to your own preferences.  But its disingenuous to change the context of the story into something it was not.  You can still disagree with the context, as it is, but I guess if you cant articulate it beyond 'it's gross,' then you really arent explaining to anyone else why or how it's so "gross."

Then we'll have to agree to disagree here that the OP did anything of the kind by having an opinion--an opinion that she made clear was in addition to understanding what was going on in the show's narrative (and my comprehension is fine; I read for a living, and my reply was to your post, which contained only one sentence from the OP's post).

Quote

 

Wow; way to denigrate anyone making a living in a nonprofessional job ! She's making shit money , as it is, being a reporter on shitty newspaper that cant even afford to put her up in a hotel , motel, b&b, whatever. Look at her clothes and the car she's driving.

I had no idea that people were parsing the  Camille/John interlude down to  the idea that it was the actual sex with him that helped heal Camille. The actual sex is not the deal.   If youre hung up on just the sex, again, where is any of the context that belongs to this story?  If youre only focused on his penis going into her vagina , or whatever, then youve lost the context, or maybe you dont understand it. Camille didnt need anyone to validate that she was "fuckable."That is missing the point of that scene with a bazooka.

 

I am sorry, but this--particularly the "bazooka" thing and the "maybe you don't understand it"--is all so presumptuous and pompous toward other posters here, who all clearly understand what's happening and have not displayed any evidence of being "only focused" on that. People here didn't buy TVs yesterday after crawling out from under a literature/media-barren rock, or need a lesson on how to watch and interpret TV. (Also, regarding something from another one of your various posts, I don't see anyone here saying that 18-year-olds shouldn't or don't have sex.)

Also, who says she's making shit money (do we know that the newspaper didn't pay for a hotel? I thought she checked into one at first, then decided to stay at her mom's)? We can't base her salary on her clothing and car. To me, whether I know what kind of dough she earns, she seems like she simply doesn't give a fuck about clothes and cars, to the point where the drabber and less noticeable those things are, the better. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[preeya]

16 hours ago, Roxie said:

Regarding the last song, Shazaam said it was The Everly Brothers.

And taking another look at the scene where Alan starts listening to the record, you can see the Everly Brothers LP cover in the background.

It was the Everly Brothers

[babyPhat279]

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that Camille didn't figure this out sooner, unless she was blocking it out (who wants to believe their mother is a killer)? The Sixth Sense came out a few years after Marion's death, and I felt at the time like EVERYONE saw that movie, especially after it was nominated for an Academy award. Spoilers if you haven't seen it, but

Spoiler

it includes a similar Munchausen by proxy story.

 

Anyway, the part of this that is so confusing is that for the most part Amma seems ok. I would think she'd be a lot more sickly/weak, unless Adora learned from the gossip the first time around that she had to spread out the poison sessions.

I wonder if what Jackie was saying about how it's just easier to go along with things, is that Marion knew what was happening to her but didn't have a strong enough will to fight it.

So for the other girls? Yeah it was probably Amma (anger at losing her mother's attention) or Amma's father, perhaps he thought this would take up Adora's attention and put a pause on what she's doing to Amma.

I also wonder if Camille killed her roommate and blocked it out, thinking she was saving her from more pain later, or some weird learned behavior.

 

Finally, I just want to say that I love that Camille unwittingly survived Adora by just wanting her to go away when she would try to care for her. Maybe she subconsciously knew? I would have thought she would love some (seemingly) positive attention from the woman.

[Schmolioot]

4 hours ago, Buttless said:

She gave him good advice. You cant predict what will happen and what you will say when the cops arrest you. He needed to sleep it off.  n what world would anyone encourage someone to go to the cops, drunk? That also makes you look guilty and stupid.

And that seems like a willful misreading of Camille's relationship with Amma. Amma is the one who's being inappropriate. Camille has admittedly been drunk or high during a couple of these inappropriate instances, but the majority of the time, she's been sisterly to Amma.  And at times, she's been overwhelmed by Amma's weird or shitty behavior. She only just met this girl. No doubt Camille's got problems, but sexualizing her sister isnt one of them.

Why? Why should anyone imagine something that has no bearing on the show we're watching, at all?

Why does she have to be 100% sure? No one is 100% sure of anyone else in this world. If youre married, you re not even 100% sure of your partner on everything.

You know what was wrong with that sex scene?  i didnt see John put on a rubber.

I didn’t really mean to suggest that Camille was sexualizing Amma. I can’t say the same on Amma’s end for sure. The scene was played that way to give it that edge and tension that it otherwise might not have had.

In a normal family two sisters sleeping in the same bed would not be abnormal at all. Camille resisted it though I think because on some level she knew what Amma was doing and had at least some concern about what might happen.

Camille is someone who is very lonely and doesn’t have much affection in her life. Her only friends appear to be her boss and his wife. She’s also stuck in kind of an arrested development where she relates better to teenagers than adults. She’s been most open with Alice, John and Amma.

So while she knows she shouldn’t be sleeping with John and doing all that crazy shit with Amma, she can’t resist because she wants that closeness and affection from people who she thinks understand her. She can’t get that from Richard. That’s an adult relationship that she’s completely unprepared for.

[zobot81]

6 hours ago, Buttless said:

I have a few things that point to John still being the killer.

1) Where the heck does he go when they find Nat's body in the alleyway? He's in the square with Camille, Amma and her posse, just feet away from where Nat was found. When the old couple who found her starts a commotion, everyone runs to that alley, except for John. The last we see of him is a shot of the others in the alley way and the back of his head in the forefront of the frame. At that point, his sister is missing. Why wouldnt he have run over there, or someone run back over to him, to hold him back or be with him? It's never addressed at all, and that is just so weird.

2) He still only tells Camille that he never killed his sister.  Doesnt mention Ann. And he really didnt like her.

3) He made up a plausible "story" for the 'why' he killed the girls. Ok; that was a story, we are to believe. But he said they pull out the hog's teeth and that there it feels good (a release) when the tooth finally pops out.  That, is real. And it's what Richard said, when he did his experiment on the pig head, also.

Im not saying he's the killer; just that those things left in show still lcause some doubt.  But who know? I implicated Mr Lacy  a while back and no one believes that, either.

I also got a sort of like ... idk ... a less than sincere impression of John, during his post-coital dialogue with Camille.  I just didn't dig the vibrations he was giving off in that moment.  I mean, he's VERY hung up on the town being the reason for everything bad that's ever happened, and it's a little too on the nose for me.  I started to get this uh-oh feeling in my guts, like he was about to slip up and say something that would make Camille's face go all scrunchy, and she would say something like, "Hold on, how do you know what time the bike was put into the pond?" (to be clear, that is absolutely not Sharp Objects dialogue; I'm inventing hypotheticals).

Did anyone else get a weird, guilty vibe from John when they were lying in bed and shooting the shit about Wind Gap and the murders?

[riverheightsnancy]

I have to wonder if Amma and Adora are the killers working together? Like Adora groomed her to do this as the ultimate expression of her devotion to the "mother"? In some situations of domestic violence, a victim knows that if the perpetrator is abusing someone else, then they aren't being abused.  Obviously it is a dysfunctional way of viewing it, but not in the case of a person who has been systematically abused. It is survival. I wish they would use the actual term for MDP, it is now called factitious disorder, although medical circles still tend to use the MDP term as opposed to what we use in psych (i.e., DSM-5). In addition, when I teach this topic, the vast majority of people who have factitious DO are women and nurses, or women who have a background in the medical field. The reason is that they understand the medical tests and how to make a person look ill.  The stats are scant and it is very hard to prove because these women tend to switch doctors a lot and if they do not have the records sent from a prior doctor, it may be hard to prove or make a connection. I have a video that I often show to students of a dad whose baby is in ICU for "supposed" SIDS and they only way they caught him is that the ICU had video cameras that recorded the rooms. He obviously didn't know, because he would place his body over the baby to smother her/him, to get the baby to stop breathing. I have enjoyed this show a lot and think that Amy Adams has done a spectacular job here. I actually think it is better that Big Little Lies, which I found to be too obvious. MMV! 

[peach]

1 hour ago, zobot81 said:

I also got a sort of like ... idk ... a less than sincere impression of John, during his post-coital dialogue with Camille.  I just didn't dig the vibrations he was giving off in that moment.  I mean, he's VERY hung up on the town being the reason for everything bad that's ever happened, and it's a little too on the nose for me.  I started to get this uh-oh feeling in my guts, like he was about to slip up and say something that would make Camille's face go all scrunchy, and she would say something like, "Hold on, how do you know what time the bike was put into the pond?" (to be clear, that is absolutely not Sharp Objects dialogue; I'm inventing hypotheticals).

Did anyone else get a weird, guilty vibe from John when they were lying in bed and shooting the shit about Wind Gap and the murders?

Camille has a blind spot regarding him, IMO, because she feels defensive of and protective toward him, since people make little snide comments about him all the time because he doesn't fit in to Wind Gap, and neither did she.  She's projecting a lot of herself on to him, I think.  He knows she's sympathetic to him, and all his understanding of her could be manipulative, for sure.  The way he was talking to Amma at the pool was certainly creepy. 
 

30 minutes ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I have to wonder if Amma and Adora are the killers working together? Like Adora groomed her to do this as the ultimate expression of her devotion to the "mother"?

Good take! 

 

[peach]

8 hours ago, Buttless said:

Why? Why should anyone imagine something that has no bearing on the show we're watching, at all?

Then don't.

[Butless]

2 hours ago, zobot81 said:

I also got a sort of like ... idk ... a less than sincere impression of John, during his post-coital dialogue with Camille.  I just didn't dig the vibrations he was giving off in that moment.  I mean, he's VERY hung up on the town being the reason for everything bad that's ever happened, and it's a little too on the nose for me.  I started to get this uh-oh feeling in my guts, like he was about to slip up and say something that would make Camille's face go all scrunchy, and she would say something like, "Hold on, how do you know what time the bike was put into the pond?" (to be clear, that is absolutely not Sharp Objects dialogue; I'm inventing hypotheticals).

Did anyone else get a weird, guilty vibe from John when they were lying in bed and shooting the shit about Wind Gap and the murders?

Id have to watch it again.  I think when he talks about Ann, and Camille is hypothesizing, she mentions something like,  If Ann bit her sister, she might kill her, too.  And I thought that was weird. It could have been exaggeration, but it sounded more like  she could have possibly been leading him on to say more about it.  I think it's going to get too complicated, in the finale, though, if there were two separate murders of the girls.  That's probably in addition to Adora killing Marian. So , too messy to explain in an hour or less?

[peach]

2 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

I also wonder if Camille killed her roommate and blocked it out, thinking she was saving her from more pain later, or some weird learned behavior.

I felt like they were strongly hinting she may have the way they used the flashbacks.  "Let's get out of here."  That whole episode seemed like they were hinting that maybe Camille was doing a lot of this and didn't remember it.  But then they've moved away from that.  The name of this series should be Red Herrings instead of Sharp Objects, because every glance and word seems like it's supposed to mean something, but it's just constant misdirection, apparently. 
 

Quote

Finally, I just want to say that I love that Camille unwittingly survived Adora by just wanting her to go away when she would try to care for her. Maybe she subconsciously knew? I would have thought she would love some (seemingly) positive attention from the woman.

That quick flashback of Adora pushing young Camille back on the bed just like she was doing in the present was the most eerie!  Feeling her fear the memory, and starting to feel it's importance.   Very well done, too, the actresses really had the exact same expression.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

That quick flashback of Adora pushing young Camille back on the bed just like she was doing in the present was the most eerie!  Feeling her fear the memory, and starting to feel it's importance.   Very well done, too, the actresses really had the exact same expression.

Oooh, very My Sweet Audrina-like! Oh, V.C., do you haunt my every thought?!

[Anela]

20 hours ago, peach said:

Imagine if Camille went alongside Vickery with a search warrant for Ashley's house, and they found her in bed with Richard. 

Richard would get away with it (unless the sheriff dislikes him). It seems like a group of men there, should have been arrested for raping Camille, but they weren't. Instead, she was called a slut, and shamed for it. The guys went on to have lives, and she's almost drinking herself into a coma every day. 

So Ashley would just be the new Camille. 

[Beezella]

10 minutes ago, peach said:

3 hours ago, babyPhat279 said:

I also wonder if Camille killed her roommate and blocked it out, thinking she was saving her from more pain later, or some weird learned behavior.

I felt like they were strongly hinting she may have the way they used the flashbacks.  "Let's get out of here." 

I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

As far as I can remember, this episode was the first time we see Camille tell a lie, when she claimed it was John who wanted to sleep off the alcohol before being arrested.

[Butless]

3 hours ago, Schmolioot said:

I didn’t really mean to suggest that Camille was sexualizing Amma. I can’t say the same on Amma’s end for sure. The scene was played that way to give it that edge and tension that it otherwise might not have had.

In a normal family two sisters sleeping in the same bed would not be abnormal at all. Camille resisted it though I think because on some level she knew what Amma was doing and had at least some concern about what might happen.

Camille is someone who is very lonely and doesn’t have much affection in her life. Her only friends appear to be her boss and his wife. She’s also stuck in kind of an arrested development where she relates better to teenagers than adults. She’s been most open with Alice, John and Amma.

So while she knows she shouldn’t be sleeping with John and doing all that crazy shit with Amma, she can’t resist because she wants that closeness and affection from people who she thinks understand her. She can’t get that from Richard. That’s an adult relationship that she’s completely unprepared for.

I think youre right. I also think that Amma is a psychopath, and psychopaths frequently are highly sexual people. Its all about making them feel good, giving them a high, they use their sexuality to get what they want, or to stun their prey, or to consume them.  Camille just  uses her sexuality to get close to people, as much as she can.

[peach]

10 minutes ago, Anela said:

Richard would get away with it (unless the sheriff dislikes him). It seems like a group of men there, should have been arrested for raping Camille, but they weren't. Instead, she was called a slut, and shamed for it. The guys went on to have lives, and she's almost drinking herself into a coma every day. 

So Ashley would just be the new Camille. 

What?  If Richard and 18yo Ashley were having consensual sex that would be rape?  But not if it's Camille and John?  What does that have to do with Camille being raped in the woods by the football team? 

[Butless]

53 minutes ago, peach said:

Then don't.

There is literally no context for Richard sleeping with Ashley in this show.

There is a context for Camille sleeping with John in this show.

[peach]

5 minutes ago, Beezella said:

I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

I thought the same, about the music, but then they showed it again in a sort of montage of Richard discovering the truth about Marian being poisoned, to hint at something more.  But they shove a lot of things together quickly in every episode, to make the viewer feel disconcerted, I think.

The entire thing about the rehab center sure didn't seem like it was a place to get BETTER.  I feel sad if that's what the treatment for this problem is really like.

I guess the thing about the nurse and the music, is they probably aren't allowed to have any devices, and they were just borrowing the nurse's personal one.  Maybe someone addicted to cutting would even break one to get something sharp?

[Anela]

6 minutes ago, peach said:

What?  If Richard and 18yo Ashley were having consensual sex that would be rape?  But not if it's Camille and John?  What does that have to do with Camille being raped in the woods by the football team? 

She's eighteen? I don't know, why did you ask in the first place? Did you think he would arrest Richard? 

Oh, wait. Do you mean that nobody would have a problem with it, because it's an older man?

[Butless]

27 minutes ago, Beezella said:

I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

As far as I can remember, this episode was the first time we see Camille tell a lie, when she claimed it was John who wanted to sleep off the alcohol before being arrested.

Camille also lied to her boss when she said that Nat's mom gave her the Ok to go in Nat's room.  But are these the things that posters are hanging their hats on when they say that Camille is an unreliable narrator? Because I dont understand that.The entire story is not from her point of view.  I can understand ascribing things she says or does to being high on alcohol or drugs, but i dont get where the unreliable narrator thing is coming from, unless maybe its from the book?

[peach]

Just now, Anela said:

She's eighteen? I don't know, why did you ask in the first place? Did you think he would arrest Richard? 

Oh, wait. Do you mean that nobody would have a problem with it, because it's an older man?

No, I think everyone would have a problem with it.  They would certainly be shocked.

[Anela]

2 minutes ago, peach said:

No, I think everyone would have a problem with it.  They would certainly be shocked.

Sadly, I don't think they would be. 

[Butless]

35 minutes ago, Beezella said:

I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

As far as I can remember, this episode was the first time we see Camille tell a lie, when she claimed it was John who wanted to sleep off the alcohol before being arrested.

Im guessing they limit any content, like music and tv, that can trigger suicidal or cutting ideation .

Edited August 22, 2018 by Buttless

[peach]

1 minute ago, Buttless said:

 but i dont get where the unreliable narrator thing is coming from, unless maybe its from the book?

I think it's because of the author's other book, actually.  Since Gone Girl (and probably Girl On The Train, different author, but touted as "the next Gone Girl"), people are looking for the "twist" whatever that might be.  Kind of like watching M Night Shymalan movies. 

[Butless]

17 minutes ago, peach said:

I think it's because of the author's other book, actually.  Since Gone Girl (and probably Girl On The Train, different author, but touted as "the next Gone Girl"), people are looking for the "twist" whatever that might be.  Kind of like watching M Night Shymalan movies. 

Oh; ok. Thanks.   I'll be pretty PO'ed if there is a twist from out of left field in this show, because they  havent successfully shown she is an unreliable narrator, imo.

[peach]

13 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Oh; ok. Thanks.   I'll be pretty PO'ed if there is a twist from out of left field in this show, because they  havent successfully shown she is an unreliable narrator, imo.

Yeah, in these twisty turny stories it's a fine line between "Mind.Blown." and "Are You F'ing Kidding Me?"

[Anela]

20 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Oh; ok. Thanks.   I'll be pretty PO'ed if there is a twist from out of left field in this show, because they  havent successfully shown she is an unreliable narrator, imo.

I don't think she is. I read the book a couple of weeks ago, and I think you only see what she knows herself. Things falling into place, like the reason for her sister dying.

 

23 minutes ago, peach said:

I think it's because of the author's other book, actually.  Since Gone Girl (and probably Girl On The Train, different author, but touted as "the next Gone Girl"), people are looking for the "twist" whatever that might be.  Kind of like watching M Night Shymalan movies. 

. I wasn't surprised by the end of Girl on a Train, and I read Sharp Objects, to see if I was right about the murderer (I won't say who I think it is). By the way @peach it was nice to see you here. :) I don't watch TWD anymore, and only visit a board over there out of habit.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Anela

[Beezella]

25 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Camille also lied to her boss when she said that Nat's mom gave her the Ok to go in Nat's room.

Right! I thought of another one, early on where she fell asleep/passed out overnight in her car after drinking, she lied to her mother, said something like she was tired so didn't want to drive home. Also that no one saw her, but she had to get a jump to start her dead battery car.

[peach]

7 minutes ago, Anela said:

 By the way @peach it was nice to see you here. :) I don't watch TWD anymore, and only visit a board over there out of habit.

Thank you!  It's been nice to have an actual plot to discuss.  lol  I can't say I really even LIKE this show, but at least there's something to talk about! 

[BingeyKohan]

41 minutes ago, peach said:

Yeah, in these twisty turny stories it's a fine line between "Mind.Blown." and "Are You F'ing Kidding Me?"

You have me trying to work out some twist ending where it's all been twisted Charlotte's Web fan fiction: Everything has actually happened in the mind of a hog on the farm, and Camille is like Charlotte, except spinning words into thin air (and onto herself) instead of into spiderwebs...

[peach]

7 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

You have me trying to work out some twist ending where it's all been twisted Charlotte's Web fan fiction: Everything has actually happened in the mind of a hog on the farm, and Camille is like Charlotte, except spinning words into thin air (and onto herself) instead of into spiderwebs...

Wait...Natalie collected spiders.  I think you're onto something.  Lol.  Seriously, thought, brilliant concept.

[riverheightsnancy]

1 hour ago, Beezella said:

I really don't think Camille killed her roommate. They said the roommate drank poison from the cleaning cart. "Let's get out of here" referred to playing the music and I take that at face value. Off on a tangent, I didn't understand why the rehab center limited the use of the music so tightly. Maybe they considered it avoiding the problem?

As far as I can remember, this episode was the first time we see Camille tell a lie, when she claimed it was John who wanted to sleep off the alcohol before being arrested.

I worked a Psych unit for 6 years doing my clinical hours and our unit did not allow iPods and phones for one of the reasons that you noted as well as, the fact that the ear buds can be used as a weapon (wrap around the neck).  Patients were allowed to listen to music on the radio in the lounge when they were not in group or having medical tests or meeting with the psychiatrist, etc... Their time was tightly regulated. Part of the thinking (and other facilities may view it differently) is what you were doing out there wasn't working, so adopting different habits is part of the path to getting better. You are correct that some people will use the earbuds and music as a way to check out and not interact and address why they are there. I have had a patient attempt to hang themselves with their bra and have a patient eat bleach tabs. So any and all workers on the unit would have to count their tools and check them in and out. Same with housekeeping. They had to keep a close eye on their cleaning items. They generally did not bring toxic chemicals in. this was a locked unit like depicted on the show. When a person is suicidal, they may be put on a 1 to 1, in which an aide is within arms reach of them 24/7. Had a patient make a true suicide attempt while in a 2 to 1. @ staff and 1 her. If a person is determined, they will look for instances where staff slips or drops their guard a little. 

[Mothra]

17 minutes ago, Buttless said:

I think when he talks about Ann, and Camille is hypothesizing, she mentions something like,  If Ann bit her sister, she might kill her, too.

I'm confused.  I thought Natalie was the biter. 

John also said that Natalie attacked Adora physically during their "tutoring" sessions, that at one point Adora had to have stitches.  Yet Adora, who carries on like nobody's business when she gets scratched by a rose thorn, didn't mention this to anyone we saw.  I think John said Ann gave Adora trouble, too.  Yet Adora keeps talking about how much she "loved" those girls.

I also wondered about Adora's fulsome greeting of the little girl who appeared to have Down syndrome, sitting on her mother's lap on the porch on Calhoun Day--"I'm so glad you came to my party" or something.  And then she said to the child "Are you all right?" seemingly out of nowhere.  Does she have designs on "medicating" this little girl, too?

Speaking of Adora's rose injury, she says (I think in the dress shop) "look--you made me bleed" about that injury.  There are the bloody mouths on the murdered-girl visions and on Alice.  The cheerleaders saw blood running down Camille's thigh.  There was a lot of blood when, after Alice's death, Camille gouged herself with the toilet bolt.  Seems like a lot of blood.