S01.E07: Falling

[formerlyfreedom]

Airing Sunday, August 19;

Quote

Camille crosses a line in her investigation of the prime suspect. Richard coaxes Jackie to offer up info about Marian Preaker’s death. Adora takes pains to keep an ailing Amma under her roof and in her care.

 

[Black Knight]

Another terrible decision by Camille, even though the interaction itself between her and John was rather sweet and lovely in its way. But really, how she didn't think that they'd be spotted heading into the motel - dumb. As soon as it became clear where things were going to go, I started yelling at them to hurry up and do it already, but of course they didn't get dressed afterwards, so...not quite as bad as getting caught in the actual act, but still bad enough. Luckily for her she's a Preaker and so the sheriff will sit on it.

And Richard, oy. The sex with John was dumb but it's a bit much for you to be acting like a cheated-on boyfriend considering the extent of your "relationship" with Camille has been a handjob and one bout of sex. He's quite creepy in how obsessed he is with her in such a short time and on so little. Just like last week when he was wandering around investigating her instead of paying attention to the murder investigation. That it ended up in his learning about Adora's Munchausen by Proxy killing Marian still doesn't excuse it.

Adora is really the supreme narcissist. She's already Queen Bee of the whole damn town and has been forever, but she still needs a daughter to be sick in order to get herself even more attention. She's a black hole, that one. And Alan knows but is too in her thrall to do anything. I wonder if he knew about Marian too while it was happening or only figured it out later.

[jeansheridan]

I don't think the sheriff knows knows, to give him some credit. I think it's unthinkable to him, especially if he had a relationship with Adora. Weirdly Richard was correct when he said in the real world, it is the family, but this disorder isn't that common and it's so much easier to believe a little girl is just sickly. And until this ep, Amma looked pretty robust to me. 

How much do I love that Adora has these lovely bottles and antique eye-droppers and pretty bowls to crush her poison in? And she doesn't hide it all from Alan. Not at all. I hope he goes to jail too. He may not have actively participated, but he calmly watches her make her poisons and puts on his headphones. Maybe he'll step up next week and freak out on Adora.

[jeansheridan]

24 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Camille is really broken. 

This is the first episode when I had hope for her actually. Yes, sex with an 18 year old isn't not a good idea but it made emotional sense. I mean, I guess they could have stopped it with him just looking at her, but he thinks he's going to jail and he's 18 and he already said she was beautiful. He wants sex. And honestly, I think her allowing him to see her was the healthiest thing she's done on this show. Those five minutes were probably my favorite in this entire show. That and their flirting at the bar. Over whether or not he killed his sister. Yep the show is grim.

And I think knowing the truth, really knowing it and not just suspecting it is a good thing for her. And I like that she confirmed with Jackie. Two sources--the records and Jackie and her own memory. I think Camille can rebuild from here if she survives next week.

Edited August 20, 2018 by jeansheridan

[aemom]

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

[VagueDisclaimer]

Last week, we saw Camille partying with the teens, not being able to say no to Amma, and this week we see her fucking John, not being able to say no. It’s like she’s regressed to her teenage self, caught under the hot spell of Wind Gap, back in her old home, squirming away from her mother’s attentions while her mother has her little sister pinned down, and everyone knows it. It’s like the only way she can deal with her demons, getting to the root of it and becoming the Camille who was first damaged.

That all said, fucking a grieving, teenage boy is still gross, no matter the narrative, however Richard can back right off with the “slut and drunk” condemnations, as well as dismissing what has happened in Camille’s life as “one bad thing”. Maybe he suspects Adora of something, but the way he’s been digging into Camille’s life without her knowledge is beyond the investigation’s scope and just for his personal curiosity. And he’s using it against her. Richard took several steps down in my regard and frankly, Camille needs to tear him right down when it all comes to light. 

As far as Camille suspecting her mother in the deaths of Natalie and Ann, I don’t buy it at all. Adora is a slow, calculated death that she can hover over and enjoy, like we’ve seen. Not a strangle, not yanking teeth out of dead girls bodies. That all is much too messy for her soft hands. Plus, she simply didn’t have the access. She might’ve tried with those girls, but she didn’t succeed. 

That doesn’t stop her from enjoying the role as the one person who tried with these “lost girls”.

The Jackie revelation was underwhelming and I still don’t get the point of Ashley. 

I will say, Amma understands exactly what role she’s playing and what roles others are playing. She’s a smart, dangerous little thing who isn’t scared of the poison her mother is spoonfeeding her.

Edited August 20, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[VagueDisclaimer]

10 minutes ago, AEMom said:

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

I’d go with willfully ignorant.

[annlaw78]

24 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

And until this ep, Amma looked pretty robust to me. 

Yeah, the show could have cut out 10% of the shots of Camille drinking and driving her way around town, and put in some foreshadowing of the Munchausen’s stuff before this ep.  Nothing indicated prior bouts of illness with Amma — nothing seen, no comments by the chatty folks of Wind Gap, etc. I’m not getting how Adora could have physically killed two teenage girls and hauled them around the woods and town, if that’s the turn this is taking. 

[Black Knight]

6 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

As far as Camille suspecting her mother in the deaths of Natalie and Ann, I don’t buy it at all.

I don't think Camille was suspecting Adora in Natalie and Ann's deaths. Do you mean the conversation with John? She has no idea about the Munchausen by Proxy at that point; I think she's just always interested to hear something about her mother. And if you mean the conversation with her editor, that's them talking at cross-purposes - she's talking about Marian, he thinks she's talking about Natalie and Ann because he's out of the loop.

As far as the sheriff goes, I feel he's the personification of Upton Sinclair's line, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." He's certainly heard the talk about Marian's death being Munchausen by Proxy, but we know from an earlier episode that Adora can get rid of him as sheriff if she wants. But his reaction after being told by Amma's friends that she's at home sick - maybe he had convinced himself up to now that Adora wasn't doing this with Amma too.

[jeansheridan]

22 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

and this week we see her fucking John, not being able to say no

I read this in such a different way. I felt like she needed to be seen, but by someone as damaged as she feels. And John is so open with his feelings, so direct with her. He misses Natalie like she missed Marion. So I don't think she wasn't able to say no. I think she finally said yes to another person. I wish it had been a more age appropriate person, but given we've seen that Camille seems to connect best with teens (her hospital roommate, Amma in a way, the  Book of Mormon wannabe), maybe she really has arrested development. But now she can order drinks like a boss.

Edited August 20, 2018 by jeansheridan

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Yeah, the show could have cut out 10% of the shots of Camille drinking and driving her way around town, and put in some foreshadowing of the Munchausen’s stuff before this ep.  Nothing indicated prior bouts of illness with Amma — nothing seen, no comments by the chatty folks of Wind Gap, etc. I’m not getting how Adora could have physically killed two teenage girls and hauled them around the woods and town, if that’s the turn this is taking. 

I think the Munchausen was foreshadowed; it was the first thing that came to mind for me pretty early on in the series. I'm just wondering if Camille knew it too but didn't know she knew, if that makes any sense. And Marian didn't seem frail and sickly in all of the flashbacks either.

[VagueDisclaimer]

4 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I read this in such a different way. I felt like she needed to be seen, but by someone as damaged as she feels. And John is so open with his feelings, so direct with her. He misses Natalie like she missed Marion. So I don't think she wasn't able to say no. I think she finally said yes to another person. I wish it had been a more age appropriate person, but given we've seen that Camille seems to connect best with teens (her hospital roommate, Amma in a way, the  Book of Mormon wannabe), maybe she really has arrested development. But now she can order drinks like a boss.

The rest of my comment referred to Camille’s regression and arrested development, in regards to her behavior last week and this week. An adult would realize that one shouldn’t have sex with a grieving boy half their age, no matter how much they related, but because of Camille’s state, she isn’t exactly acting her age. It wasn’t just about saying yes or no, it was about how she’s relating to those that are the same age that she was when she was most hurt. 

[preeya]

Correct me if I'm totally off base here.  The whole town either knows or has strong suspicions that Adora is a monster and a murderer and no one has the balls to do anything about it.

She is now in the process of killing her 2nd daughter and the only one available to put an end to her is her other broken daughter. 

What about the other two girls that were murdered? They don't fit the profile.

Edited August 20, 2018 by preeya

[jeansheridan]

4 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

think the Munchausen was foreshadowed; it was the first thing that came to mind for me pretty early on in the series.

Just curious, but what did you notice? It was a surprise to me, despite being an avid VC Andrews reader as a kid.

[jeansheridan]

11 minutes ago, preeya said:

Correct me if I'm totally off base here.  The whole town either knows or has strong suspicions that Adora is a monster and a murderer and no one has the balls to do anything about it.

I think three people have strong suspicions--Jackie, the nurse, and now Richard. Everyone else just hates her for being rich and pretentious and for apparently milking Marion's death. And Alan is being, as Vague Disclaimer said, willfully ignorant.  I do wonder about Gayla but she's such a non-character it's impossible to guess what she thinks. I guess Amma knows too, but is participating (Interesting how Adora threatens her material things upon any sign of resistance. And that she knew about the second phone.)

Edited August 20, 2018 by jeansheridan

[preeya]

2 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I think three people have strong suspicions--Jackie, the nurse, and now Richard. Everyone else just hates her for being rich and pretentious and for apparently milking Marion's death. And Alan is being willfully ignorant. I do wonder about Gayla but she's such a non-character it's impossible to guess what she thinks. I guess Amma knows too, but is participating (Interesting how Adora threatens her material things upon any sign of resistance. And that she knew about the second phone.)

All those medical reports; there are more than three people involved in the coverup/conspiracy/blind eyes. I'm also certain that Vickery knows something.

[Black Knight]

11 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

(Interesting how Adora threatens her material things upon any sign of resistance. And that she knew about the second phone.)

If I remember correctly, Camille ratted out the second phone to Adora during an argument in a previous episode. (or wait, it might've been in an attempt to be helpful when Amma disappeared)

Adora was probably purposely laying off the Munchausen's while Camille was home - and had some other things to help slake her desire for attention, like holding up an entire funeral for her arrival and putting on the town celebration. Maybe Camille being bruised triggered Adora in a sense, and since Camille wouldn't let her "take care of" her, she then had to satisfy her triggered urge by making Amma sick. She believes Camille's leaving the next day anyway.

Speaking of Camille being bruised, I have to nitpick - has Amy Adams never bruised an ankle? Yes, one can walk on an ankle that bruised, but it would be painful and it's hard to keep from limping or otherwise trying to keep your weight off it as much as you can. When she swung her legs off the bed and put her feet down on the floor I was expecting her to at least wince. Even if she was putting on a brave face for Adora and could control her reactions that perfectly, she walks completely normally the rest of the episode too.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Black Knight

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

Last week, we saw Camille partying with the teens, not being able to say no to Amma, and this week we see her fucking John, not being able to say no. It’s like she’s regressed to her teenage self, caught under the hot spell of Wind Gap, back in her old home, squirming away from her mother’s attentions while her mother has her little sister pinned down, and everyone knows it. It’s like the only way she can deal with her demons, getting to the root of it and becoming the Camille who was first damaged.

That all said, fucking a grieving, teenage boy is still gross, no matter the narrative, however Richard can back right off with the “slut and drunk” condemnations, as well as dismissing what has happened in Camille’s life as “one bad thing”. Maybe he suspects Adora of something, but the way he’s been digging into Camille’s life without her knowledge is beyond the investigation’s scope and just for his personal curiosity. And he’s using it against her. Richard took several steps down in my regard and frankly, Camille needs to tear him right down when it all comes to light. 

As far as Camille suspecting her mother in the deaths of Natalie and Ann, I don’t buy it at all. Adora is a slow, calculated death that she can hover over and enjoy, like we’ve seen. Not a strangle, not yanking teeth out of dead girls bodies. That all is much too messy for her soft hands. Plus, she simply didn’t have the access. She might’ve tried with those girls, but she didn’t succeed. 

That doesn’t stop her from enjoying the role as the one person who tried with these “lost girls”.

The Jackie revelation was underwhelming and I still don’t get the point of Ashley. 

I will say, Amma understands exactly what role she’s playing and what roles others are playing. She’s a smart, dangerous little thing who isn’t scared of the poison her mother is spoonfeeding her.

 

Yep, he certainly lost my respect. What is he, 12, calling her a slut?

Edited August 20, 2018 by ferjy

[jeansheridan]

Just now, preeya said:

All those medical reports; there are more than three people involved in the coverup/conspiracy/blind eyes.

Good point about the hospital. Although it sounds like Adora keeps switching doctors and if the records aren't computerized and shared, connections might not be made. I think in my state the hospital would have to call child protective services for a file that big (Amma's file, not Marion's). Or they may see her as neurotic mother who already has a dead child. I don't work in a hospital setting so Adora's disorder seems very rare to me. Maybe those of you who work in such places see it more often?

[Butless]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

Another terrible decision by Camille, even though the interaction itself between her and John was rather sweet and lovely in its way. But really, how she didn't think that they'd be spotted heading into the motel - dumb. As soon as it became clear where things were going to go, I started yelling at them to hurry up and do it already, but of course they didn't get dressed afterwards, so...not quite as bad as getting caught in the actual act, but still bad enough. Luckily for her she's a Preaker and so the sheriff will sit on it.

And Richard, oy. The sex with John was dumb but it's a bit much for you to be acting like a cheated-on boyfriend considering the extent of your "relationship" with Camille has been a handjob and one bout of sex. He's quite creepy in how obsessed he is with her in such a short time and on so little. Just like last week when he was wandering around investigating her instead of paying attention to the murder investigation. That it ended up in his learning about Adora's Munchausen by Proxy killing Marian still doesn't excuse it.

Adora is really the supreme narcissist. She's already Queen Bee of the whole damn town and has been forever, but she still needs a daughter to be sick in order to get herself even more attention. She's a black hole, that one. And Alan knows but is too in her thrall to do anything. I wonder if he knew about Marian too while it was happening or only figured it out later.

Camille has a good heart and is  sensitive, like John is. I think sleeping with him was a good decision made with her heart, and it helped to heal her (and comforted him) more than anything ever has. It was the best decision and fuck Dickie. That cross on his back fits in to the theme here of Christian hypocrisy. Shes a "drunken slut"? Fuck you twice as hard, Det Dickface. She had "one" bad thing happen to her? He knows about Adora by now and he says this to her? What a spoiled male chauvinist brat. Go back to Kansas, you wimpy snake.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Buttless

[ShellsandCheese]

Quote

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

My previous post was deleted. To sum it up, this episode left me exhausted. It's pretty clear that everyone in the town (at least the adults) knows that Adora killed Marian. Alan knows. Jackie knows. Chief Vickery knows. They all know. Reminds me of that quote about the only thing required for evil to triumph is for "good people" to do nothing. 

The director made it a point to linger on Alan watching Adora go up the stairs with her tray of bottles and then showed Alan having a memory of him with Amma. He knows. He has always known. Also think back to his word choice when he confronted Adora about having lost a child too and how well he bore that. He knows. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by ShellsandCheese

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, annlaw78 said:

Yeah, the show could have cut out 10% of the shots of Camille drinking and driving her way around town, and put in some foreshadowing of the Munchausen’s stuff before this ep.  Nothing indicated prior bouts of illness with Amma — nothing seen, no comments by the chatty folks of Wind Gap, etc. I’m not getting how Adora could have physically killed two teenage girls and hauled them around the woods and town, if that’s the turn this is taking. 

I was getting tired of those driving shots by the second episode. Way too much of it.

I agree, I can't see Adora murdering the girls, however she could easily get Alan to do it. He's done her dirty work before and is obviously excellent at burying his head in the sand. Maybe the guilt is why he needs the comfort of his music so much. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by ferjy

[VagueDisclaimer]

10 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I was getting tired of those driving shots by the second episode. Way too much of it.

I agree, I can't see Adora murdering the girls, however she could easily get Alan to do it. He's done her dirty work and is obviously excellent at burying his head in the sand. Maybe the guile is why he need the comfort of his music so much. 

 

I still just find the way the girls were killed to be much too dirty for Adora, whether done by her or ordered by her . I think Allan has been ground down since Marian’s death and Camille’s leaving. All he’s had is Adora, her new baby doll that she was able to do with all she wanted, and he’s used his comfortable ignorance and music to drown it all out. I don’t think he’d have it in him to kill those girls like that.

Edited August 20, 2018 by VagueDisclaimer

[WaltersHair]

Was Camille undressed long enough for Richard to see the cuts on her legs? Maybe he was too butt hurt to notice.

l thought it was unnecessary for Richard to call Camille a slut. That said, if he had feelings for her,  he might be lashing out, but he wasn't all that forthcoming with her otherwise. I'm conflicted about it.

Years ago there was a series called QB7 and I vividly recall a woman saying "I don't know what the male equivalent of a slut is, but that is what you are." I still don't think there is a word for it.

The Munchhausen's crossed my mind the first time I saw the little home hospital bed and everyone was so coy about what Marion's sickness actually was. Forgot about it when Amma didn't seem all that physically sick. Girl has some problems as deep as Camille's.

[Black Knight]

2 minutes ago, Buttless said:

I think sleeping with him was a good decision made with her heart, and it helped to heal her (and comforted him) more than anything ever has.

The reason I called it a terrible decision is because she knew the police were looking for him to arrest him, and the police barging in on them was completely predictable since she didn't even try to smuggle him in.

I am not here for Richard's reaction though. I hated that she started begging and trying to go down on him, instead of reading him the riot act. But, sadly, it's not that surprising that she did react that way, and it shows that as much as people would like to think that her sleeping with John was healing for her, as nice as their interlude of connection was it still wasn't anything more than temporary relief. It's just not how it works with someone as broken as Camille.

[ferjy]

On 8/19/2018 at 10:31 PM, VagueDisclaimer said:

I still just find the way the girls were killed to be much too dirty for Adora, whether done by her or ordered by her . I think Allan has been ground down since Marian’s death and Camille’s leaving. All he’s had is Adora, her new baby doll that she was able to do with all she wanted, and he’s used his comfortable ignorance and music to drown it all out. I don’t think he’d gave it in him to kill those girls like that.

 

Yeah, you're probably right. He's a sad weakling, I don't think he'd have it in him to do it, not even at Adora's command. I don't think she's involved in the murders. That would get her the wrong kind of attention. She wants to be praised and lauded, not be notorious.

 

On 8/19/2018 at 10:34 PM, WaltersHair said:

Was Camille undressed long enough for Richard to see the cuts on her legs? Maybe he was too butt hurt to notice.

l thought it was unnecessary for Richard to call Camille a slut. That said, if he had feelings for her,  he might be lashing out, but he wasn't all that forthcoming with her otherwise. I'm conflicted about it.

Years ago there was a series called QB7 and I vividly recall a woman saying "I don't know what the male equivalent of a slut is, but that is what you are." I still don't think there is a word for it.

The Munchhausen's crossed my mind the first time I saw the little home hospital bed and everyone was so coy about what Marion's sickness actually was. Forgot about it when Amma didn't seem all that physically sick. Girl has some problems as deep as Camille's.

That's what initially drew my attention to the possibility. I became really suspicious when in a flashback, it showed Adora taking Marian into her room and closing the door on Camille.

Edited August 20, 2018 by ferjy

[VagueDisclaimer]

In one episode, I forget which, Camille walked in on Amma, Adora, and Allan all talking together and I swear I heard Amma talking about having thrown up all night. Anyone else recall that? It was in the background, so I could be mistaken. I had taken note of it because at the time I couldn’t imagine that Adora had no idea about Amma’s “bad” side. 

[ferjy]

15 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Was Camille undressed long enough for Richard to see the cuts on her legs? Maybe he was too butt hurt to notice.

l thought it was unnecessary for Richard to call Camille a slut. That said, if he had feelings for her,  he might be lashing out, but he wasn't all that forthcoming with her otherwise. I'm conflicted about it.

Years ago there was a series called QB7 and I vividly recall a woman saying "I don't know what the male equivalent of a slut is, but that is what you are." I still don't think there is a word for it.

The Munchhausen's crossed my mind the first time I saw the little home hospital bed and everyone was so coy about what Marion's sickness actually was. Forgot about it when Amma didn't seem all that physically sick. Girl has some problems as deep as Camille's.

That was a heartbreaking scene. It really showed just how broken she is.

[Xantar]

Frank: "It was a bad idea to send you there."

Me: "GEE! YA THINK?!??"

What did that idiot think was going to happen?

I agree with others who say Adora probably didn't kill the two girls. Unfortunately, that only leaves Amma who is such an obvious suspect that it's going to be disappointing when she's inevitably revealed as the killer. Honestly, the whole mystery has turned out to be pretty lame. 

The plot of the series has turned out to be so overwrought that it's difficult to take seriously. Camille lost her sister, she went into a psychiatric hospital for self-harm where her roommate committed suicide, her mother is a murdering narcissist, and she was gang-raped in high school.

(And if I'm right, she's about to discover her little half-sister is also a murdering psychopath)

You could have picked any two of those and created a great story centered around a character dealing with those issues. When you put all of them together, it just looks like you're playing Trauma Conga Line. It's unnecessary and it stretches credulity that this woman is capable of doing anything as complex as investigating a crime and writing an article about it. 

[ferjy]

42 minutes ago, VagueDisclaimer said:

In one episode, I forget which, Camille walked in on Amma, Adora, and Allan all talking together and I swear I heard Amma talking about having thrown up all night. Anyone else recall that? It was in the background, so I could be mistaken. I had taken note of it because at the time I couldn’t imagine that Adora had no idea about Amma’s “bad” side. 

Yes, absolutely. And there was another scene where she told Adora that she was feeling much better that morning, so probably yet another night that she was sick.

[Butless]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

The reason I called it a terrible decision is because she knew the police were looking for him to arrest him, and the police barging in on them was completely predictable since she didn't even try to smuggle him in.

I am not here for Richard's reaction though. I hated that she started begging and trying to go down on him, instead of reading him the riot act. But, sadly, it's not that surprising that she did react that way, and it shows that as much as people would like to think that her sleeping with John was healing for her, as nice as their interlude of connection was it still wasn't anything more than temporary relief. It's just not how it works with someone as broken as Camille.

I mustve missed where she knew they were coming after John, right at that moment. But if she did know, she also knew the area a bit, and they were in the Mexican part of town, it looked like. Why would Mexican workers call th ecops on John, even f it was broadcast? No reason to do it, unless maybe there was a reward out for capture, wich I dont recall them mentioning. So I think she had reason to believe it might take the a min more to get to him, Also: they were bith drinking, and it probably clouded her judgment. She sees words where there are none when shes's drinking, so.

Camille is not "broken." People who have mental illnesses or problems like Camilles are not "broken."  Objects are broken  and you can toss them out. People are more resilient.\, and "broken" is such a dismissive, horrible thing to say about a person.  Camille has problems, but she is already starting to overcome them.  Her interlude wasnt a band-aid. He was the first person to see her body, with all the cuts and words in it, and to be compassionate with her. He saw  *her." He understood her pain, and wasnt put off by it. He was empathetic, and loving. Honestly, everybody should be so lucky to have  John or Joanna or whatever in their lifetime. It is something Camille will take with her, and build on.

Camille reacted to Richard;s anger the way anyone who had been neglected, abused and made to feel worthless their whole life would have reacted. That's no shame on Camille. All the shame goes to Dickie, who's ego couldnt handle that he felt her was rejected. He immediately calls her a slut, after he acts like a entitled brat and spews his  shot about how he was only interested in her because he couldnt figure out why she wasnt all over his dick, and that she was a game for him to figure out. Not a , you  know, person who has their own secrets and inaccessible places to some asshole theyve only known a week.

[izabella]

58 minutes ago, Xantar said:

I agree with others who say Adora probably didn't kill the two girls. Unfortunately, that only leaves Amma who is such an obvious suspect that it's going to be disappointing when she's inevitably revealed as the killer. Honestly, the whole mystery has turned out to be pretty lame. 

I'm trying to piece together some clues that don't fit with Amma being the girls' killer. Natalie's blood was found under the bed in the house John is living in.  How did it get there?  We saw Ashley scrubbing it, and scrubbing her hands like Lady MacBeth.  My money is on Ashley having killed Natalie.  And if Natalie is the one who bit her ear, as Camille asked, then maybe that happened when Ashley was killing her.  Or maybe that's why Ashley killed her.  I think she might have killed her out of jealousy, since John loved her so much, and pulled out her teeth because she bit her ear.

That leaves Anne?  I think that's her name.  Could John have killed her for being mean to Natalie?  Because he pretty much confessed to Camille, though he was supposedly being sarcastic.  He finally told Camille that he didn't kill Natalie.  But he didn't say, "I didn't kill those girls."  So he might have killed Anne, and did it in the same way his sister was killed in homage?

I don't remember which girl was killed first, though.  Maybe Ashley killed them both.  She's wound up very tight.

Edited August 20, 2018 by izabella

[Butless]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

And I think knowing the truth, really knowing it and not just suspecting it is a good thing for her. And I like that she confirmed with Jackie. Two sources--the records and Jackie and her own memory. I think Camille can rebuild from here if she survives next week.

 

I had a feeling Jackie was gonna let me down, but the characters was leaning this way, all along.  There was always an undercurrent of jealousy about Camille, and those games she was playing, instead of coming out and telling the damn cop about her suspicions. It's like she was willing to snoop about Marion's death to what?  hold it over Adora's head, if she could prove it? Now she has a chance to get some justice for Marion and make Adora pay, and she does nothing to bother the sick status quo of that town.  I am glad that 's how it ended; with Camiile telling her to fuck herself.

 

I will still love her for her silent side-eye and vaping during Calhoun Day, and for when she went for Richard's gun (that ring! those mumus!).

Edited August 20, 2018 by Buttless

[izabella]

12 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Camille reacted to Richard;s anger the way anyone who had been neglected, abused and made to feel worthless their whole life would have reacted. That's no shame on Camille. All the shame goes to Dickie, who's ego couldnt handle that he felt her was rejected. He immediately calls her a slut, after he acts like a entitled brat and spews his  shot about how he was only interested in her because he couldnt figure out why she wasnt all over his dick, and that she was a game for him to figure out. Not a , you  know, person who has their own secrets and inaccessible places to some asshole theyve only known a week.

I'll bet he thinks he's a nice guy, too.

[Butless]

22 hours ago, izabella said:

I'll bet he thinks he's a nice guy, too.

DIckie;s got a madonna/ whore complex thats's 100x bigger than his tattoo.

 

On 8/19/2018 at 9:29 PM, AEMom said:

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

It seems like he does , though.  He looked sad, afraid and resigned, and a montage of his daughters was playing through his mind. He lives at home, he knows Adora by now, he seems well aware that her medical concoctions match the ill symptoms with his kids, and it almost seemed like he was confirming it with her, that this time Amma was so 'bad', that it may well be a fatal dose administered to her. I think he's operating on two levels, one is denial, but the other knows Adora is makes the girls ill and eventually kills them.  Its not like the guy has a job to go to. You can hide your head in the sand only so long. He's just like Adora. They both believe its the perception of what they show other people that's really real, and not the fucked up monsters they really are.

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Was Camille undressed long enough for Richard to see the cuts on her legs? Maybe he was too butt hurt to notice.

Her legs were definitely visible long enough and sunlight was streaming through the window. Even if he might not have read the words, the cuts were visible.

19 minutes ago, izabella said:

I'm trying to piece together some clues that don't fit with Amma being the girls' killer. Natalie's blood was found under the bed in the house John is living in.  How did it get there?  We saw Ashley scrubbing it, and scrubbing her hands like Lady MacBeth.  My money is on Ashley having killed Natalie.  And if Natalie is the one who bit her ear, as Camille asked, then maybe that happened when Ashley was killing her.  Or maybe that's why Ashley killed her.  I think she might have killed her out of jealousy, since John loved her so much, and pulled out her teeth because she bit her ear.

That leaves Anne?  I think that's her name.  Could John have killed her for being mean to Natalie?  Because he pretty much confessed to Camille, though he was supposedly being sarcastic.  He finally told Camille that he didn't kill Natalie.  But he didn't say, "I didn't kill those girls."  So he might have killed Anne, and did it in the same way his sister was killed in homage?

I don't remember which girl was killed first, though.  Maybe Ashley killed them both.  She's wound up very tight.

Ashley’s younger sister is one of Amma’s minions and we’ve seen Amma hanging out at their pool. Either one could have gotten the blood there.

Anne was killed first and months earlier for that matter. Natalie was still a missing person when Camille got to town.

[Court]

This entire time I thought John's last time was Keane. Thanks to CC I now know it's King.

So Adora is poisoning Amma and killed Marian? Jackie and the nurse knew. The Chief may have known? Or did be suddenly put some pieces together when the girls said Amma was sick? Camille wouldn't take the medicine so I see how she lived but what about when she was a baby? It appears that Alan knows this and does nothing. Was that scissors he picked up at the end? I thought he may be killing himself. 

 

Adora being the killer fits with the other girls. They sound a lot like Camille but I still think it's Amma. But I don't know why. Jealousy that her mom was paying them so much attention?

 

Why is there so much focus on this doll house?

Also, what was Amma looking for in Camille's room? She had zero reaction to the crime photos which is disturbing. 

[Butless]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 the  Book of Mormon wannabe

 This show would have been so much funnier with Elijah from "Girls."

[jeansheridan]

3 minutes ago, Buttless said:

 This show would have been so much funnier with Elijah from "Girls."

A little Elijah makes everything better. And a little more dark humor might have made this show more bearable. That's why Jackie is such a pleasure, mostly. Obviously I've enjoyed it but I'll never watch it again after next week. I just hope we don't have a Leaving Las Vegas sort of ending with Camille drinking herself to death in a hotel room. But if that would get Adams an Emmy or Golden Globe, so be it.

Also, I did not think they could make Adams look worse than she did in episode one, but well done show. She glowed in the bar scene (that smile!) and then looked like hell driving away from Jackie's.

[Butless]

On 8/19/2018 at 10:40 PM, ferjy said:

Yeah, you're probably right. He's a sad weakling, I don't think he'd have it in him to do it, not even at Adora's command. I don't think she's involved in the murders. That would get her the wrong kind of attention. She wants to be praised and lauded, not be notorious.

 

He couldnt even throw Camille out, hen Adora ordered him to.

 

23 hours ago, Xantar said:

 Unfortunately, that only leaves Amma who is such an obvious suspect that it's going to be disappointing when she's inevitably revealed as the killer.

I think they already gave up the pretense that its anyone else, because we're seeing flashes of Amma in a headress of flowers, head lowered, face angry; ie, a  Minotaur.  Kind of trite, but can also spooky in a flowery Southern gothic way,VC Andrews way.

[SarahPrtr]

3 hours ago, ferjy said:

Not only does the whole town know Adora killed Marian, but they're ignoring the fact that she is doing the same with Amma! Sick, sick town. The one person, the nurse, who tried to do something lost her job. Dang but this is a grim show.

One thing I have learnt in life is that whenever there's abuse of any kind - be it child, spousal or of another person - there are people who always ALWAYS ALWAYS KNOW.  This whole "Oh, I never knew about it because nobody talked about it" by someone close by, is absolute effing bullshit.  There's always someone who is in a position to do something, but they never do - either because they're just effing pussies, or they tried to, but were somehow blocked by someone in a higher, more influential position (which is disgraceful and horrifying - but the people who did try to do something are real heroes).  When I was getting abused, teachers at school AND church elders knew and many of them actually saw me being attacked, but Not ONE of them did anything.  No matter how sneaky or secretive or clever the perpetrator is, someone ALWAYS finds out and knows.  KNOWS.

[Butless]

22 hours ago, izabella said:

I'm trying to piece together some clues that don't fit with Amma being the girls' killer. Natalie's blood was found under the bed in the house John is living in.  How did it get there?  We saw Ashley scrubbing it, and scrubbing her hands like Lady MacBeth.  My money is on Ashley having killed Natalie.  And if Natalie is the one who bit her ear, as Camille asked, then maybe that happened when Ashley was killing her.  Or maybe that's why Ashley killed her.  I think she might have killed her out of jealousy, since John loved her so much, and pulled out her teeth because she bit her ear.

That leaves Anne?  I think that's her name.  Could John have killed her for being mean to Natalie?  Because he pretty much confessed to Camille, though he was supposedly being sarcastic.  He finally told Camille that he didn't kill Natalie.  But he didn't say, "I didn't kill those girls."  So he might have killed Anne, and did it in the same way his sister was killed in homage?

I don't remember which girl was killed first, though.  Maybe Ashley killed them both.  She's wound up very tight.

 

I thought they said they sent the blood away to be tested. If so, they dont know it's Natalie's yet. It could still be Ashley's, from when Nat bit her ear.  Or possibly Ashley belted Natalie back, and that's how her blood got there, along with Ashley's? Either way, they will find Ashliegh's blood there, too, whihc throws a wrench in the 'John did it' theory.

Adora didn't do it, nor Alan, because killing teh girls was messy and pysical. I also think if they were out around town at night, people would see them. Theyre always dressed impeccably. Whether they were or were wearing cat burglar clothes, people would have taken note.

The Sheriff didnt do it. Because , why would he?

No one of the ex cheerleaders stands out.

Mr Lacey is the only one who's a bit suspicious.  He was weird with Amma, when she came out to him, after play practice, at the high school.  And he gave Camille an ominous look after he apologized to her for raping her,  and she walked away from him, unforgiven.  Then there's the weird looks his blonde wife gave him and Amma during Calhoun Day (did she know he raped Camille? Why would you marry someone who raped someone?). Did he sleep with Amma?

At the school, Amma asks him if he regrets his past. What would she know about his past?  She doesnt know he and his football pals raped Camille in 9th grade, so what is she referring to? Was it a past between them; did he sleep with her (a 13 year old ;x)? Im leaning toward thinking Amma  did the murders of those girls but Amma couldnt have moved the bodies of the girls on her own, lifted on into a window sill in the middle of town?, could she? Did Mr Lacy help her cover them up?  He pulls his hand away from her like she's poison, in that exchange they have.

 

22 hours ago, bijoux said:

Her legs were definitely visible long enough and sunlight was streaming through the window. Even if he might not have read the words, the cuts were visible.

Ashley’s younger sister is one of Amma’s minions and we’ve seen Amma hanging out at their pool. Either one could have gotten the blood there.

Anne was killed first and months earlier for that matter. Natalie was still a missing person when Camille got to town.

Ashley hates Amma. She also thinks whoever killed the girls did it for popularity. She's also pretty transparent about wanting popularity, and kind of dumb. So I expect if she did it, she would have played her hand early, and been caught.

 

But you point out that Amma's friends with her sister, and that;s why she hangs out at the pool. What if Amma killed  at least one of the girls there, along with her girlfriends? I dont know how theyd move a body around though.  Unless they beat her up there, and took her to another location , alive and killed her. But, again, Nat was found in the middle of town , in a windowsill. How did she get there?  When her two girlfriends complain about Mr Lacy at play practice, one of them complains, "What do you care what he thinks? He's weird." And Amma replies. "It takes one to know one." Were they all involved, somehow? He's got daughters he loves and he seemed sincere  in his apology to Camille, but was he trying to hide sleeping with Amma, a 13 year old, and going to jail, so he helped her/the girls cover the killings up?

20 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

One thing I have learnt in life is that whenever there's abuse of any kind - be it child, spousal or of another person - there are people who always ALWAYS ALWAYS KNOW.  This whole "Oh, I never knew about it because nobody talked about it" by someone close by, is absolute effing bullshit.  There's always someone who is in a position to do something, but they never do - either because they're just effing pussies, or they tried to, but were somehow blocked by someone in a higher, more influential position (which is disgraceful and horrifying - but the people who did try to do something are real heroes).  When I was getting abused, teachers at school AND church elders knew and many of them actually saw me being attacked, but Not ONE of them did anything.  No matter how sneaky or secretive or clever the perpetrator is, someone ALWAYS finds out and knows.  KNOWS.

I agree 100%.  And it's that willful ignorance by 'good, upstanding' people that fucks you up more than even the abuse, because you learn to trust no one; you learn that no one cares about you; and then you internalize that.  Nobody deserves that. Im sorry that you went through that, Sarah

[Accidental Martyr]

1 hour ago, Court said:

This entire time I thought John's last time was Keane. Thanks to CC I now know it's King.

According to IMDb, it’s Keene.

I still don’t see how Camille carved the words on her back.

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Buttless said:

Ashley hates Amma. She also thinks whoever killed the girls did it for popularity. She's also pretty transparent about wanting popularity, and kind of dumb. So I expect if she did it, she would have played her hand early, and been caught.

If you meant I was implying Ashley is the culprit, I wasn't. My point was that Amma and her pals had access to the house if they wanted to implicate John. I could see Amma doing that because John has been fending off her advances. All this if it even is Natalie's blood. John was working on the Preaker farm. He could have just had a work related injury and it was his blood. 

[SarahPrtr]

2 hours ago, Buttless said:

Camille is not "broken." People who have mental illnesses or problems like Camilles are not "broken."  Objects are broken  and you can toss them out. People are more resilient.\, and "broken" is such a dismissive, horrible thing to say about a person.  Camille has problems, but she is already starting to overcome them.  Her interlude wasnt a band-aid. He was the first person to see her body, with all the cuts and words in it, and to be compassionate with her. He saw  *her." He understood her pain, and wasnt put off by it. He was empathetic, and loving.

Love this.  And Camille is certainly not 'ruined', the way that her effing mother says she is!!!

 

Ashley is a wannabe who is jealous of ANY girl who gets more attention than her.  That's why she is hooked into John so much.  She got the hottest guy in town and the one guy who is somewhat resistant to Amma's persuasions or attempts at seducing him.

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Buttless said:

I mustve missed where she knew they were coming after John, right at that moment. But if she did know, she also knew the area a bit, and they were in the Mexican part of town, it looked like. Why would Mexican workers call th ecops on John, even f it was broadcast? No reason to do it, unless maybe there was a reward out for capture, wich I dont recall them mentioning. So I think she had reason to believe it might take the a min more to get to him, Also: they were bith drinking, and it probably clouded her judgment. She sees words where there are none when shes's drinking, so.

Camille is not "broken." People who have mental illnesses or problems like Camilles are not "broken."  Objects are broken  and you can toss them out. People are more resilient.\, and "broken" is such a dismissive, horrible thing to say about a person.  Camille has problems, but she is already starting to overcome them.  Her interlude wasnt a band-aid. He was the first person to see her body, with all the cuts and words in it, and to be compassionate with her. He saw  *her." He understood her pain, and wasnt put off by it. He was empathetic, and loving. Honestly, everybody should be so lucky to have  John or Joanna or whatever in their lifetime. It is something Camille will take with her, and build on.

Camille reacted to Richard;s anger the way anyone who had been neglected, abused and made to feel worthless their whole life would have reacted. That's no shame on Camille. All the shame goes to Dickie, who's ego couldnt handle that he felt her was rejected. He immediately calls her a slut, after he acts like a entitled brat and spews his  shot about how he was only interested in her because he couldnt figure out why she wasnt all over his dick, and that she was a game for him to figure out. Not a , you  know, person who has their own secrets and inaccessible places to some asshole theyve only known a week.

It’s just a descriptive word of a person’s state, not their personality.  You can look it up in the dictionary if you want, one of the definitions, in the context of a broken person is sorrowful or hurting. Nothing horrible about that. 

4 minutes ago, SarahPrtr said:

Love this.  And Camille is certainly not 'ruined', the way that her effing mother says she is!!!

 

Ashley is a wannabe who is jealous of ANY girl who gets more attention than her.  That's why she is hooked into John so much.  She got the hottest guy in town and the one guy who is somewhat resistant to Amma's persuasions or attempts at seducing him.

No, not at all. Now “ruined” is horrible. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by ferjy

[izabella]

In the motel room, in between berating and insulting Camille, Richard told Camille that "they found Natalie's blood where he's been living."  The forensics must have come back, which is why they arrested John.

[ferjy]

5 hours ago, AEMom said:

Adora is one seriously messed up mother.

I am not 100% convinced that Alan knows that Adora killed Marian.  He strikes me as being a little bit dense.

I sat there with my mouth gaping open when Adora bit the baby (Amma) on the face to get her crying so she could say “God has given me another sick baby,” with Camille looking on through the bannisters. Another thing to screw with Camille’s mind. And crap, she (Adora) starts giving them the “blue” (bottle) medicine almost right from the start! One of those reports Camille was looking at says Amma was only 6 weeks old. 

[bijoux]

52 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I sat there with my mouth gaping open when Adora bit the baby (Amma) on the face to get her crying so she could say “God has given me another sick baby,” with Camille looking on through the bannisters. Another thing to screw with Camille’s mind. And crap, she (Adora) starts giving them the “blue” (bottle) medicine almost right from the start! One of those reports Camille was looking at says Amma was only 6 weeks old. 

Great catch, I didn't really get anything aside from Amma's name and some symptomps which could be easily read. Naturally, I've forgotten them by now.

Edited August 20, 2018 by bijoux

[Butless]

19 hours ago, ferjy said:

I sat there with my mouth gaping open when Adora bit the baby (Amma) on the face to get her crying so she could say “God has given me another sick baby,” with Camille looking on through the bannisters. Another thing to screw with Camille’s mind. And crap, she (Adora) starts giving them the “blue” (bottle) medicine almost right from the start! One of those reports Camille was looking at says Amma was only 6 weeks old. 

Holy shit! I missed that. That sounds frightening af!

So when Jackie has that exchange with Vickery and she asks him how his "other girl" is, she meant Adora? Is that the extent of girls' that Vickery is perfectly happy to pretend doesnt , just Adora? Or was Jackie referencing that Amma was his daughter, or Camille? She obviously needles him about it all the time, so Im inclined to think it's just Adora, based on what we've seen with  Vicket and Adora in the past.

Was Amma looking for any hint that Camille suspected her in the killings, or what was she looking for on her laptop, folders, etc?

I cant really even comment on Patricia Clarkson's performance, she's so great. She looked really lovely in that blue outfiit, and is so creepy I can hardly stand it. There's been a wave of movies where women are poisoning people, and I really do not want to see another poisoning. It makes me nauseated to watch it.

I thought Amy Adams looked great , this episode.  Then it hit me.  She's a voracious alcoholic and yet her face never looks puffy.

20 hours ago, ferjy said:

It’s just a descriptive word of a person’s state, not their personality.  You can look it up in the dictionary if you want, one of the definitions, in the context of a broken person is sorrowful or hurting. Nothing horrible about that. 

No, not at all. Now “ruined” is horrible. 

 

Original post by Black Knight:

Quote

I hated that she started begging and trying to go down on him, instead of reading him the riot act. But, sadly, it's not that surprising that she did react that way, and it shows that as much as people would like to think that her sleeping with John was healing for her, as nice as their interlude of connection was it still wasn't anything more than temporary relief. It's just not how it works with someone as broken as Camille.

I am aware of the different definitions of the word "broken."  But in this context above, it sounds like Camille is being commented on as hopeless:

"Someone as broken as Camille."  Camille is being talked abut as if she is irredeemably "broken." So much so that there was no good in her sleeping with John, other than a temporary itch she needed to scratch, and that she will never learn to stick up for herself (she doesnt read Dick the "riot act," for beating up on her verbally and taking out his anger and inferiority complex out on her.  she begs for forgiveness, instead, and is seen as 'weak') because she is someone who is "as broken" as she is.

If the "as broken" was in a context of her having been broken in that moment, when she was 'caught cheating' by  Dick, it probably wouldnt have sounded so disparaging of her, and so dismissive of her sleeping with John.  It's clear that John knew what was good for Camille, and Camille, knew what was good for Camille, and I cant see where either of them were at fault with that.  The fact that she begged for forgiveness from Dick after being busted in on by half a dozen cops minutes earlier, has absolutely nothing to do with the rightness of her sleeping with John.  Had Dick been as sensitive as John was, he would have realized that Camille wasnt a "slut". Didnt deserve to be called a "slut" or treated like one (again, slut is a man -made word; they dont exist). He would have been hurt, but he would have understood the trauma Camille had been through.  Dick sayingto her, "I dont think youre bad. I think youre a drunken slut," summed up his fucked up idea of what women were; not the reality.  

In rare cases, a person has sustained so much physical and/or psychic damage as to be "broken" into a psychosis, catatonia, etc. That isnt the character Camille that we see.  Just my take on it.  

I also wonder about the people, usually women and girls, who cut, or who have situations that alienate them from a general pubic that dont understand them and what they have gone, or go, through. Throwing around the word "broken" to describe people with mental illness or who have gone through trauma and have some maladaptive  or selfharming behavior is insensitive and ignorant.

Someone on an earlier thread mentioned that the actor who plays John had a body like a 30 year old. He definitely looks much older than 18.  I think this book and show could have done with a little scaling up of all the ages of the characters. It makes the viewer feel better to see Amy Adams with a n actor who is older than 18 (he's 23?), for sure (he even looks like he might be losing some hair up front?). But I dont think it's "gross" that Camille , who is supposed to be 28-29, is having sex with an 18 year old.  She's not taking advantage of him. The context makes sense. There's no weird power differential going on here, like you'd see with a 28-29 year old man and an 18 year old woman. And that's been portrayed in countless films over the years.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Buttless