Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[catrox14]

I hate that "want" "need" thing, because in this context I always feel like they're trying to tell me that the show needs Laurel to be Black Canary even if the fans don't want her to be, and I'm like "no no it really doesn't".

 

I think they are going to find out just how much we DON'T NEED Laurel because if the show elevates Laurel to BC 2.0 in any real way, I suspect viewers will walk.  Yes that's my speculation but it is fueled by the bitterness of them shoving Laurel into the final acts inorganically and awkwardly. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't mind that sentiment, because I agree with it to a certain extent. I would never want Team Arrow in conflict with each other for an extended period, for example, but sometimes that's important for the story and to ultimately strengthen their bonds. And then there are always fans who want things NOW NOW NOW and that's not always the best storytelling. And I also appreciate that the writers aren't so indifferent to their own story and characters that they would be easily swayed by fan response.

 

But at the same time, yeah, in a long-term sense, there's a point where maybe you just have to accept that what you're trying to do is not working. Sticking to that isn't giving the audience what they need. It's being self-indulgent and stubborn at the expense of your own story. When there are contract issues at play, there's only so much they can do to work around the problem. But in the case of Laurel, if that continues to be an issue past this season, then my only hope is that they will radically change their plans for her, and make her a villain, because it's the only course for her that I can imagine being tolerable.

[Starfish35]

I know a lot of people have been speculating that Laurel is being kept because of contract issues, but I'm not totally sure I believe that. If they were simply running out time on her contract, it seems like they could have kept her in the background like they did in the first half of season two. But the sudden promotional push during the last part of the season makes me think that they still either are determined to make her BC no matter what anyone thinks, or that for some reason they decided to make one last try to win the audience over. I don't know. But then so much of what happened in season two doesn't make sense to me in retrospect.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Starfish35

[quarks]

Those theories aren't necessarily exclusive, though. If the show is stuck with Laurel for contract or for other reasons, it only makes sense for the show to continue to try to make Laurel likeable as long as Laurel is on the show.  And in all fairness, two of the ongoing complaints about Laurel are that a) she gets kidnapped a lot and b) she often doesn't have a lot to do - two issues that might go away if Laurel is the Black Canary.

 

Might. For one, in my opinion, those two issues, while genuine, are only a part of the problem, so solving them isn't necessarily going to solve the whole issue. For two, I'm not really convinced that Team Arrow really needs another fighter with Roy on board and sane, so making Laurel the Black Canary doesn't necessarily make Laurel useful. And for three, Laurel could still be kidnapped even if she's Black Canary - Oliver's been kidnapped or tied up at least twice as the Hood/Arrow, after all.  Still, I can see the showrunners sighing and saying, ok, we've got to get her into X more episodes and the other stuff hasn't worked. Let's try this.

[Zalyn]

Those theories aren't necessarily exclusive, though. If the show is stuck with Laurel for contract or for other reasons, it only makes sense for the show to continue to try to make Laurel likeable as long as Laurel is on the show.  And in all fairness, two of the ongoing complaints about Laurel are that a) she gets kidnapped a lot and b) she often doesn't have a lot to do - two issues that might go away if Laurel is the Black Canary.

 

Might. For one, in my opinion, those two issues, while genuine, are only a part of the problem, so solving them isn't necessarily going to solve the whole issue. For two, I'm not really convinced that Team Arrow really needs another fighter with Roy on board and sane, so making Laurel the Black Canary doesn't necessarily make Laurel useful. And for three, Laurel could still be kidnapped even if she's Black Canary - Oliver's been kidnapped or tied up at least twice as the Hood/Arrow, after all.  Still, I can see the showrunners sighing and saying, ok, we've got to get her into X more episodes and the other stuff hasn't worked. Let's try this.

Good points.  But if they couldn't make Laurel useful and self-reliant as A) the daughter of a detective/cop and B) a lawyer, then how the heck will they make her useful as yet another masked vigilante? They had plenty there in terms of physical confidence and intelligence to work with and they couldn't make her plausible as a character.

[Starfish35]

I suppose you're right. If their hand is being forced some way on keeping her, it would make sense for them to try to win the audience over. But as you say, I'm not sure they really grasp what the issue is with Laurel.

I guess I don't really get the contract thing though. Cast members that don't work get written out all the time. I remember SGA, where all the initial cast had (IIRC) six year contracts. That didn't stop them from dumping Rainbow Sun Franks after season one or Torri Higginson after season three. And it's not like that's unusual - it's just the example that comes to my mind first. Shows dump characters all the time that aren't working (not that I think Torri Higginson wasn't working - that particular move is something I'm still bitter about). NCIS LA cut and replaced two of their original cast during and after the first season (for another example). So I guess I'm struggling to understand why Katie Cassidy's contract might be different. It just seems like, based on what I've seen on other shows, if they wanted her gone, she'd be gone. *shrugs* I don't know.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I'm afraid that what the writers will do is give Laurel something that no one else has... And that's turning her into a sort of meta-human by giving her the canary cry. People have been talking about how she could get it (like how Barry got his, or get injected/bitten by something etc.) I hope they don't go this route because it'll be so blatantly obvious that it's the writers way of trying to shoehorn Laurel into the plot even more. 

 

The lack of publicity for Laurel's character is interesting. It's either the writers don't want to spoil what's going to happen (like Coca Cola's secret recipe), or that the season won't be focused on her as much. Or maybe the writers still don't know how to make Laurel likable? Maybe they've gauged the audiences reaction when she got Sara's jacket and found that it was definitely mixed and so they chose not to pursue Laurel's BC arc yet? IDK I feel like they should understand that they shouldn't make such a divisive character into someone that has a pivotal role in the DC GA universe because it would be a disservice to the comics themselves.

 

I also think that if they do make her BC, then more people would walk away from the show than if they don't. People don't watch Arrow for Laurel (which is why if they don't make her BC those comic purists/Laurel lovers won't leave), but there are some people understand that the more of an important role she has, then that would make them question the show and stop watching. 

[statsgirl]

Some contracts are just that, contracts for the length of time. But if the actor got a good lawyer to draw up the contract (and the Cassidy family would know some really good entertainment lawyers), the contract might include a penalty clause such as the show would owe her a lot of money if they dropped her before the end of the contract.  With Arrow's budget always a problem, maybe they decided it was a better decision to keep her on for the length of the contract.

 

Or maybe they really do want her to stay on the show.

 

But as you say, I'm not sure they really grasp what the issue is with Laurel.

Maybe if they could release her from the weight of the expectation of the BC role, the superhero stuff and Oliver's OTP part, they might be able to write  her better. For all the other characters Oliver excluded, the show runners have a freedom to move beyond the comic books -- the creation of John Diggle and Sara, Thea as Speedy, Felicity as  young and part of the team, Malcolm Merlyn as the Dark Archer, Roy, Quentin -- and they've done a good job with them.  If they could do the same with Laurel and see how she fit in naturally, it might be possible to save her.

 

I think all the problem with Laurel would be made worse if she becomes the Black Canary, people wouldn't accept her, and not just those who like Sara, and the whole relationship with Oliver is the most dysfunctional he has in a show of dysfunctional relationships.  The harder they try to put her into that role, the more ill-suited they make her for it.

 

ETA:

 

The lack of publicity for Laurel's character is interesting. 

Maybe it's just that none of the interviewers are asking about her.  Or the fans at convention KC doesn't attend.  At Phoenix, SA was asked two questions about Felicity and none about Laurel.

Edited June 9, 2014 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

I'm afraid that what the writers will do is give Laurel something that no one else has... And that's turning her into a sort of meta-human by giving her the canary cry. People have been talking about how she could get it (like how Barry got his, or get injected/bitten by something etc.) I hope they don't go this route because it'll be so blatantly obvious that it's the writers way of trying to shoehorn Laurel into the plot even more.

 

   I don't know why but I find the image of Laurel being bitten by a radioactive canary to be absolutely hysterical.

[Zalyn]

   I don't know why but I find the image of Laurel being bitten by a radioactive canary to be absolutely hysterical.

This needs to be made into an image or gif. 

[wonderwall]

 I don't know why but I find the image of Laurel being bitten by a radioactive canary to be absolutely hysterical.

I gotta admit, when I read that on another comment section I had to close my laptop for a second because it was just too hilarious :p Oh Laurel....

[JayKay]

I don't think it's necessary to give Laurel a Canary Cry. There ought to be enough viewers screaming at their televisions every time she arrives on the scene as Canary to blow out the eardrums of even fictional bad guys.

[writersblock51]

 

I also think that if they do make her BC, then more people would walk away from the show than if they don't. People don't watch Arrow for Laurel (which is why if they don't make her BC those comic purists/Laurel lovers won't leave), but there are some people understand that the more of an important role she has, then that would make them question the show and stop watching.

 

This would describe my husband, son and I - we're all ready to bolt if Laurel is going to be BC.  Hate to say it but that's a big deal breaker for us as a household.  There are 2 others for me, personally: Laurel and Oliver getting back together again (because sister swapping is gross!) and nipping the Oliver and Felicity friendship/organic relationship/whatever the hell it is in the bud. 

 

and this:

 

Maybe if they could release her from the weight of the expectation of the BC role, the superhero stuff and Oliver's OTP part, they might be able to write  her better.

 

Why is there even any insistence on anyone's part that Laurel HAS to be the Black Canary?  There's enough changes on the show that deviate from the comics that having her destined for a role holds no merit.

 

I don't what contract doesn't allow a show to get rid of an actor if things aren't working out.  And I wonder if her contract is stipulated so that she gets paid on the number of lines or minutes of screen time.  Otherwise, she got paid for all S2 episodes even though she wasn't in all of them AND her screen time/line count was minimal in the final 2 episodes compared to everyone else.

 

Furthermore, Roy is now 'clean' (for the time being, at least) and can fight well enough to help the team.  He should, obviously, continue to train with Diggle and Oliver.  Having Sara around for the duration of Roy's injection and then introduction into the team provided Oliver with the opposing approach & attitude.  Sara put a voice to all that he was fighting against - giving up, killing, and taking Roy out of the picture.  Ultimately, Oliver did the right thing, or, mostly the right thing.  And I'm glad he didn't take Sara's advice about killing Roy.  But her presence helped define the boundaries and risks.

 

Now that Sara is gone from day to day operations, Laurel's sub-par skill set is a liability more than a help.

Edited June 13, 2014 by writersblock51

[statsgirl]

As far as I know, actors on contract get paid for every episode of the show's season whether they are in them or not.

 

 

Having Sara around for the duration of Roy's injection and then introduction into the team provided Oliver with the opposing approach & attitude.  Sara put a voice to all that he was fighting against - giving up, killing, and taking Roy out of the picture.

In other words, Sara was more useful to moving the story along than Laurel was.

 

It's been demonstrated that there was little that the character of Laurel added little to the show's first three seasons that couldn't have been done in another way. With Roy now fighting and Felicity in the field, and hopefully Sara coming back next season, there is even less for Laurel to do.  She could be the Team lawyer, as Quentin is the Team's cop connection but even that is limited.  Comments like KC saying she's been doing the salmon ladder just make me more bitter.

[writersblock51]

Well, if KC did the salmon ladder around SA, then I'm surprised he didn't post about it on FB like he did when Caity Lotz did it - he was so proud of her and there was a video of her doing it, too. 

 

Laurel isn't necessary to the show, IMO.  There is nothing that she does that can't or hasn't been done by anyone else.  Even if Quentin isn't the top cop next season, I'm sure the SCPD would be more than willing to work with the Arrow, given what happened at the end of S2.  Clearly he's not a menace to them or the city; he's an ally. 

 

My concern is that other characters will continue to get short shrift to make room for Laurel.  Sin, Roy and Thea's investigation into Blood turned into Laurel's crusade - she never even talked to any of them about it after.  I can see that happening again and it would be detrimental to the show.

[catrox14]

 

Comments like KC saying she's been doing the salmon ladder just make me more bitter.

 

Wait, what? Are you serious? She says she's done the Salmon Ladder? Oh FFS that is just too much.  Godsdammit. 

[pootlus]

Wait, what? Are you serious? She says she's done the Salmon Ladder? Oh FFS that is just too much.  Godsdammit. 

 

As folk on the interwebs are wont to say - pics or it didn't happen.

[writersblock51]

She said, during a panel with Manu Bennett (I don't know who else was there), that she had done one.  According to the Twitter chatter, MB was asked about the salmon ladder and she chimed in.

 

No clue if there are pictures or any other proof.

 

Who knows, maybe she was just joking!??!  (hopefully!?)

[wonderwall]

I love how KCs twitter is filled with her saying that she's working out and travelling like 90% of the time :p At least she's trying? Sorta? Next stop, actually understanding her character... Or whatever's left of it

[Lisin]

I've moved some posts responding to the KC Sidney con comments to the spoilers thread if you're looking for something you posted about that you'll find it there. Thanks. 

[FAU]

I don't think it's necessary to give Laurel a Canary Cry. There ought to be enough viewers screaming at their televisions every time she arrives on the scene as Canary to blow out the eardrums of even fictional bad guys.

 

As if a scream makes a character, I can't take it seriously if they somehow have it work against the bad guys.

Wait, what? Are you serious? She says she's done the Salmon Ladder? Oh FFS that is just too much.  Godsdammit. 

 

In that short amount of time?  It's really going to be forced, morso than what I initially thought.

So in Blind Spot everyone is suddenly very very stupid so that Laurel can be seen by the audience as the only one who realizes the truth about Blood.

 

Pretty much, her character exhibits every symptom of character propping: trying to force sympathy with the addiction plot, trying to force characters out of the way to force her into a specific role, trying to bring other characters down just to make her look good, etc.

[Starfish35]

A item I just posted in spoilers has stirred up my bitterness again.

I am never not going to be bitter about the jacket passing scene.

I am never not going to be bitter that they spent an entire season developing a fantastic Canary, only to hand it all over to Laurel.

I am never not going to be bitter about anything related to how they brought Sara onto this show and then dumped her in favor of keeping Laurel after all.

And...I should probably stop there.

ETA: and I am never going to accept Sara being anything other than Black Canary.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Starfish35

[Velocity23]

I think if this were S1 when KC was still considered the big star and CWs private pet the focus on Laurel would have been immense. KC was the star of the show before it started. And i believe it was expected for her to breakout big time. But almost every other female on the show managed to over-shine KC/Laurel. And it just seems like something changed and that CW and both WB are pulling for the F/O relationship. And I have seen more Sara promo during hiatus than Laurel. Thinking about it nobody mentions L except KC, which is surprising. I almost get the feeling KC is losing her "leading lady" status not just with the studio but also in the media. 

Edited June 30, 2014 by Velocity23

[dtissagirl]

If it were any other studio behind Arrow, I'd totally share the fear of showrunner ~vision for a superhero product trumping common sense. But it's The WB, and they have a really long history of micro-managing their cult TV. They forced Rob Thomas to go with Veronica/Logan on Veronica Mars when his original vision was Veronica/Duncan. They banked Berlanti as showrunner on Dawson's Creek when Kevin Williamson had to take a sabbatical, and gave the OK on Berlanti's vison of Pacey/Joey. They didn't let Smallville even hint at killing Chloe because she was the most popular character on the show by far [there was a quote from S8-S10 showrunner Kelly Souders that 98% of all mail they got on Smallville was about Chloe], despite comic purists clamoring that she wasn't even in the comics.

 

Showrunners can yell that they don't let fandom influence them until they're blue in the face, and I might even believe them, but fandom WILL influence studio -- especially The WB -- and they're the ones ultimately approving the storylines.

[Password]

Well they decided to go right ahead with Sara and Oliver again so I don't put anything past these show runner people.

[Velocity23]

I think an obstacle for F/O after Barry visit was always planned. The show-runners were hinting at it in interviews. I was very surprised they worded it as such an obstacle for F/O relationship and not the epic L/O . 

[Password]

It never seemed an obstacle for Oliver and Felicity. Just a bomb for Laurel. I wish they came up with a different obstacle because that one just made me feel ill.

[Velocity23]

Yeah and it resulted in me disliking Sara and Oliver so much. And Oliver still has so much to improve for me to really like him again. Sara faired a bit better, but i almost was fed up with her how she was in every single aspect of the show. 

[Password]

I don't know if it seemed like an obstacle to O/F or not to the general viewer but it was pretty clearly intended to be an obstacle for O/F as that's exactly what the producers called it.  I was kind of shocked when MG said in a very early interview (Dec/Jan) that Barry was an Olicity obstacle and that another one was coming up fairly soon...cue O/S.

 

The difference for me between Barry and Felicity and Oliver and Sara, is Barry was very central to the Arrowcave. He was very involved in what Oliver and Felicity did day to day. Whereas Sara and Oliver had history, bad history, with Laurel and it reached further than the central core (Arrowcave). Barry was like a secondary if not tertiary character that showed up but left. Sara showed up, stayed...stayed...and then left.

[statsgirl]

In spite of what they were promoting (Barry and Felicity!  See the chemistry! AK even said they would rival Olicity), Barry was always more about Oliver than Felicity. Pairing him with Felicity was just a way to get people to like the character so viewers would want to tune in when he has his own show..

I think if this were S1 when KC was still considered the big star and CWs private pet the focus on Laurel would have been immense. KC was the star of the show before it started. And i believe it was expected for her to breakout big time. But almost every other female on the show managed to over-shine KC/Laurel. And it just seems like something changed and that CW and both WB are pulling for the F/O relationship. And I have seen more Sara promo during hiatus than Laurel. Thinking about it nobody mentions L except KC, which is surprising. I almost get the feeling KC is losing her "leading lady" status not just with the studio but also in the media. 

I think if anyone would be bitter, it would be KC.  The p.r. people are really playing up Felicity (Felicity Fridays) and Olicity moments from the finales, and they're talking about obstacles for O/F, not O/F as an obstacle for O/L.

 

I haven't seen any promos on TV.  If they're promoing Sara, then that's a good sigh for her return.

 

I'm still bitter at how Diggle and Felicity disappeared for almost 10 episodes s2.

[Password]

I'm still bitter at how Diggle and Felicity disappeared for almost 10 episodes s2.

Bitterness shared.

[sunflower12]

 

I'm still bitter at how Diggle and Felicity disappeared for almost 10 episodes s2.

 

Absolutely agree.  After Heir to the Demon, the show went totally off the rails.  Am so bitter since I really liked the show but really had to force myself to watch the second half of the season.  

[Sunshine]

I haven't seen any promos on TV.  If they're promoing Sara, then that's a good sigh for her return.

The CW Arrow promotions on TV are for CW Summer (Season 2 reruns) so the Arrow portion promotes SA, EBR & DR as themselves. Sarah was promoted for episodes 2.04 & 2.05. Hate to be a downer but from that standpoint I wouldn't read too much into it for Season 3.

[writersblock51]

 

I'm still bitter at how Diggle and Felicity disappeared for almost 10 episodes s2.

Me, too.  It's also playing into my feelings about what I think S3 will be like.

[TanyaKay]

Me, too.  It's also playing into my feelings about what I think S3 will be like.

 

after the fan reaction to finale 3 episodes of season 2 (where there was minimum interaction with Lances and Team Arrow was front and center) I don't think they will shoot themselves in their feet and keep Diggle and Felicity away from the main plot ... but then again, what they did in season 2 after an almost perfect 9 episode arc at the beginning of the season, they could do anything.

[writersblock51]

 

but then again, what they did in season 2 after an almost perfect 9 episode arc at the beginning of the season, they could do anything.

hence my concerns.  Add the Delusional KC Promo Tour and yeah, I'm bitter already and the season hasn't even started yet.

[statsgirl]

I wondered if I was blowing the Laurel problem out of proportion but on re-watching season 1 and the first part of season 2 where she's minimized, I don't think I am.

 

If I could believe that if they knew that a lot of the audience wasn't happy with that arc, and they knew exactly why it didn't work, I would feel better about the coming season.

 

But with each interview that comes out, it seems like they don't get and they still don't get it.  This could have been a show where I get the popcorn, put my feet up and know it's going to be thoroughly enjoyable.  And yet, because of that s2 arc and all the publicity about Laurel and the bow and being BC,  I approach each new episode with trepidation.

[mstaken]

I'm bitter over how much I hate Oliver, which has significantly dampened my enthusiasm for Arrow in general. He's my least favorite character on his own freaking show! I really, really don't want to feel that way, but by the end of the season I was actively rooting against our 'hero'...which I'm thinking is not what the writers had in mind :) And I loathe dully perfect characters, so my issue isn't that Oliver is flawed. It's that he's flawed in ways that happen to push my buttons and which, for me, don't make him compelling or interesting. The actor is stiff and bland for me (I realize this isn't a popular opinion!), and plays the allegedly magnetic Oliver as lacking in charisma and charm or the sense that he's got any more inner depth than a puddle. But mostly it's the writing: he seems to regress a lot more often than he grows, and, try as I might, I just don't see him as all that different than the shallow, conceited frat boy manwhore who he supposedly left behind on the island. Plus, I just find him really dull. And the sister swapping grosses me out beyond the telling of it. I see why some say Felicity might be 'good for' Oliver, but, honestly, I can't imagine what Felicity would get out of being with Oliver aside from a closer look at those abs. Oliver is the kind of guy I'd implore any female to stay far, far away from. I honestly think even Laurel is too good for Oliver, and I do not say that lightly ;) 

 

And while I'm merrily spewing my bitterness here: ITA with those who feel last season was poorly paced, overcrowded and underwhelming. As much as I whine about hating Oliver, I actually feel the vast majority of the show's characterizations range from mediocre to worse than mediocre. And the plots are kind of rushed and sloppy IMO. The first third or so of S2 was my favorite stretch of the series, but I actually thought the last half of S2 was worse than nearly anything we got in S1. 

 

Oh, and I think the actor who plays Roy is cringe-inducingly awful. At least as bad as Katie Cassidy. And---well, I'll shut myself up. For now :) It was very entertaining and validating to read everyone's thoughts! 

Edited July 7, 2014 by mstaken

[Password]

I'm bitter over how much I hate Oliver, which has significantly dampened my enthusiasm for Arrow in general. He's my least favorite character on his own freaking show! I really, really don't want to feel that way, but by the end of the season I was actively rooting against our 'hero'...which I'm thinking is not what the writers had in mind :)

 

I'm in the same boat as you. In then end, my ill feelings toward Oliver were so bad that if he died, I would've shrugged. I would've thought ok Felicity off to The Flash and Diggle sticks around with A.R.G.U.S. Or shoot, Diglicity would've made a wonderful duo, fighting crime and taking names.

 

That was probably the worst thing they did in s2, kneecap Oliver's character. Even though he was flawed at the end of s1 into s2, I still rooted for his ho-tastic behind. But then the regression went into overdrive and I stopped watching for his journey because the writers thought his journey included stopping by Sister-Swap station.

 

I also agree with finding it difficult to see many reasons for Felicity to want Oliver in her life romantically. This coming from someone who would love for them to eventually get together. At the moment, Oliver provides her with a sense of importance and direction because she loves what she does. She's saving people! Making a difference. But emotionally the lack of support from Oliver is outstanding. Something I desperately hope they take care of in s3 now that his world isn't falling apart around his ears anymore.

 

I'm still bitter that Oliver kept saying he has no one and nothing left when Thea was still around. Boy made me mad.

Edited July 7, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[TanyaKay]

I can tolerate Oliver's regression if they remove Laurel from the scene, she just does not fit anywhere, not even with her father!

Edited July 9, 2014 by TanyaKay

[HighwayFlower]

I hate that one character ruins the whole show for me, but Laurel does. In the background I can ignore or FF, but If they shove her to the front and in my face I may not be able to watch S3, and that will suck because I love so much else about the show.

[FAU]

I hate that one character ruins the whole show for me, but Laurel does. In the background I can ignore or FF, but If they shove her to the front and in my face I may not be able to watch S3, and that will suck because I love so much else about the show.

 

That's pretty much my deal breaker too unfortunately, watching her learning about Oliver's identity, pushing her way into the Arrow team, etc. was just painful and awkward to watch.

[BkWurm1]

I think I can tolerate her as long as her actions and what she is credited with remain true to what we see on the show and true in the sense that other characters aren't pulled down to lift her up.  I mean any more than have already been. 

[FAU]

I think I can tolerate her as long as her actions and what she is credited with remain true to what we see on the show and true in the sense that other characters aren't pulled down to lift her up.  I mean any more than have already been. 

 

It's a problem when the producers/writers have to constantly explain what they're trying to do especially in regards to her character on the show.

[KirkB]

See, Laurel doesn't ruin the show for me. I don't notice or care enough about her to hate her. She's not like, say, Joxer, who was involved in arguably the worst Xena episodes. She DOES lessen my interest in any scenes she's actually in, which means I'm paying a little less attention and probably miss things because of her presence. Now if the EP's keep pushing her, and worse make her a bigger part of the show by giving her a costume and have her hanging out in the new Arrowcave, that may take me out of ambivalence into dislike or even hatred and that could be a problem.

[FAU]

 

Now if the EP's keep pushing her, and worse make her a bigger part of the show by giving her a costume and have her hanging out in the new Arrowcave, that may take me out of ambivalence into dislike or even hatred and that could be a problem.

 

That's my problem too and the more Katie talks about her character, the worse it gets.

[wingster55]

I dislike the notion that Oliver wouldn't be an effective hero/vigilante without Felicity. He did pretty well for most of season 1. 

[apinknightmare]

I dislike the notion that Oliver wouldn't be an effective hero/vigilante without Felicity. He did pretty well for most of season 1.

I don't think he'd be an effective hero without Felicity OR Diggle. He'd probably still be out murdering people if they hadn't come along. (Felicity in particular, since she was the one who held him to his no-kill vow).

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

I dislike the notion that Oliver wouldn't be an effective hero/vigilante without Felicity. He did pretty well for most of season 1.

 

Yes, he did pretty well because he had help for most of season 1 from Diggle and Felicity.  Except for a few episodes in the beginning of Season 1, Oliver has always had help being an effective hero/vigilante.  If it wasn't for Diggle and Felicity, Oliver wouldn't have even made out of Season 1 alive.

Edited July 9, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[dtissagirl]

Oliver went to Felicity for help in episode 3, and Diggle officially joined the vigilante mission in episode 4. He was doing it alone for exactly the first 2 episodes.

 

Plus, one of the biggest motifs in Green Arrow lore in several iterations is

Oliver surrounding himself with sidekicks in lieu of the family he never had. Bruce Wayne is the loner one of the playboy billionaires, not Oliver.

Edited July 9, 2014 by dancingnancy