Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

Lance really did have a weird about-face at the very end there.  Also, this season, like season 2, put a whole city at risk and killed at least some of its residents BECAUSE OF OLIVER'S ACTIONS.  He's 100% innocent in S1's disaster and at least reduced its impact, but neither Slade's minions nor the A/O virus would have happened if not for Oliver, and the S3 attack was something he knew was going to happen when he joined the LOA to save Thea's life.  He didn't specifically know it would be a virus attack, but he knew becoming Ra's would require the destruction of his city, and he did it anyway.  He risked hundreds of thousands of lives in the city he supposedly loves just to save his sister.  Yes, he was planning to do anything to save SC, but he was likely to fail and actually did fail, twice. If not for the team he'd cut off, the city would be filled with corpses.  

 

Oliver is really just kind of a huge turd.  But hey, at least he didn't risk the entire Earth, plus maybe the Milky Way, to save his mom.  Just one major American city to save his sister. 

[Genki]

Lance really did have a weird about-face at the very end there.  Also, this season, like season 2, put a whole city at risk and killed at least some of its residents BECAUSE OF OLIVER'S ACTIONS.  He's 100% innocent in S1's disaster and at least reduced its impact, but neither Slade's minions nor the A/O virus would have happened if not for Oliver, and the S3 attack was something he knew was going to happen when he joined the LOA to save Thea's life.  He didn't specifically know it would be a virus attack, but he knew becoming Ra's would require the destruction of his city, and he did it anyway.  He risked hundreds of thousands of lives in the city he supposedly loves just to save his sister.  Yes, he was planning to do anything to save SC, but he was likely to fail and actually did fail, twice. If not for the team he'd cut off, the city would be filled with corpses.  

 

Oliver is really just kind of a huge turd.  But hey, at least he didn't risk the entire Earth, plus maybe the Milky Way, to save his mom.  Just one major American city to save his sister. 

 

I think I would blame Ra's attack on Malcolm, rather than Oliver.

 

But I was shock about how selfish Barry was in his finale.

[AyChihuahua]

Why blame Ra's attack on Malcolm?  Ra's wasn't going after SC because of the Undertaking.  I guess the Undertaking lead to Malcolm being targeted by LOA lead to Malcolm using Thea lead to Sara's death by Thea's hand lead to Oliver dueling Ra's lead to Ra's stupid prophecy lead to Ra's stabbing of Thea lead to Oliver agreeing to become Ra's even while he knew (from Malcolm) that Oliver becoming Ra's required the destruction of SC.  I mean, Malcolm's a dick who should die, but it's only one step from Oliver to SC nearly being destroyed, but quite a few from Malcolm to SC nearly being destroyed.  And Oliver KNEW when he agreed to become Ra's that the city would be attacked.  But he did it anyway.  That's way worse than what happened with Slade, because when he Mirakuru'd Slade/killed rather than curing Slade he had no way of knowing that could result in an attack on SC...but he KNEW when he agreed to become Ra's that it would result in an attack on SC.  So he made a knowing choice to put an entire city at definite risk of attack (the attack was certain, the only question was how successful it would be) to save his sister's life.  

[Genki]

Why blame Ra's attack on Malcolm?  Ra's wasn't going after SC because of the Undertaking.  I guess the Undertaking lead to Malcolm being targeted by LOA lead to Malcolm using Thea lead to Sara's death by Thea's hand lead to Oliver dueling Ra's lead to Ra's stupid prophecy lead to Ra's stabbing of Thea lead to Oliver agreeing to become Ra's even while he knew (from Malcolm) that Oliver becoming Ra's required the destruction of SC.  I mean, Malcolm's a dick who should die, but it's only one step from Oliver to SC nearly being destroyed, but quite a few from Malcolm to SC nearly being destroyed.  And Oliver KNEW when he agreed to become Ra's that the city would be attacked.  But he did it anyway.  That's way worse than what happened with Slade, because when he Mirakuru'd Slade/killed rather than curing Slade he had no way of knowing that could result in an attack on SC...but he KNEW when he agreed to become Ra's that it would result in an attack on SC.  So he made a knowing choice to put an entire city at definite risk of attack (the attack was certain, the only question was how successful it would be) to save his sister's life.  

 

The whole storyline ended up being unsatisfying, but Malcom set everything in motion by killing Sara and  mind raping Thea. It's unclear if his end goal all along was to be the Next Ra's or just to escape this one, but he knew Starling could potentially be under attack by the league. Wasn't the threat in 3.09 the the LOA would kill 50 people a day until the killer was given to them?

 

Actually your post make me blame Malcolm FOR EVERYTHING, he set everything in motion earlier by setting up the undertaking and sabotaging the Queen's Gambit. Slade would not have targeted Starling if he never met Oliver. :)

[tv echo]

I blame Malcolm as well.  Also, the S3 finale implied that Ra's also targeted Starling City because he knew that Damien Darhk was going to be there.

[kismet]

Gotta say I think it was more MM & Darhk that are responsible for bringing Ras & the virus to SC. SL actually has a little fault too, as she was the first one to ask for the LoA assistance. And of course, Oliver shares a portion of the blame. But its not all his fault. Plus Ras is just crazy, so who knows where he would have attacked next? Seems like Ras was just trying to multitask his vengenance & vendettas with a little hazing.

[AyChihuahua]

It's definitely mostly Ra's, with a strong assist from Malcolm, but they are the villains.  Oliver is the hero, and he knowingly risked an entire city to save his sister.  I don't find that at all heroic.  Plus, he had plenty of time to come up with a better plan than "wait until Ra's does something really bad to make me agree to his offer, and be sure to leave my loved ones largely unguarded while I'm waiting for that really bad thing to happen."

[statsgirl]

Did he know he was risking Starling City to save his sister?  I thought Ra's "we have to destroy your city so you can start again" speech came in 3x21, and Oliver made the decision to take Thea to the Lazarus Pit in 3x20, when the only threat MM talked about was that Thea could end up crazy.

 

I mean, MM could have told Oliver what it meant to be Ra's after Ra's made him The Offer, but we didn't see the "wipe out your city" conversation on screen, did we?  And if the reward for his help was to turn the LoA over to MM, he wouldn't have told Oliver about the city wiping out stuff because that would have made Oliver hesitate since Starling City is Malcolm's city too.

[Starfish35]

I'd actually never made the connection before, but.....ehhhhh. Yeah. I think he did know. In This Is Your Sword, when he meets with MM, they talked about thinking they would have more time. Looking back, he and MM probably knew.....they just thought they'd have more time to stop it before it got that far. Although I'm not sure they knew about the method. I'm not sure they knew about the A/O virus until Ra's took it back from Nyssa.

Although in fairness, if Oliver's plan to crash the plane had worked, there would have been no danger to SC.

[AyChihuahua]

He knew SC would have to be destroyed when he agreed to Ra's offer, he just didn't know how.  Malcolm told him.  And yes, he had at least a plan to have a plan to save SC, but he had no way of knowing it would be successful, and in fact his first two plans failed pretty spectacularly.  If not for his team, which he had totally cut off, everyone in SC would be dead.  He risked like 500,000 (whatever the population of SC is, plus the virus could have spread further) people to save his sister.  Who was deadish at least in part bc they thought it was cool to leave her alone in her loft knowing the LOA was gunning for them.

Edited June 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

 I don't know how much is damaging control or just David being honest. I think he is a straight forward guy who is vocal about his character. I like that he was honest about S3 was the weakest season and that they had shelved his character. One thing that did disappoint me tho was I was reading one recap of his private Q&A and it sounded like he was contributing part of Diggle being sidelined season to Olicity. He said that the show needs balance and they spent too much time away from the action and on the love story. 

 

 

I gotta disagree with him here about Olicity, unfortunately. I mean, yes, there was more outright focus on Oliver and Felicity's relationship this season (or lack thereof, and the feelings and whatnot, especially from Oliver's side), and overall it was full of stupid angst, but there were several eps where they barely even interacted. I think Diggle being sidelined had more to do with Roy and then Laurel being out in the field than anything, because it seems like they don't know what to do with a guy who has fighting skills but doesn't wear a mask. I mean, there was plenty of meat for Diggle while Oliver was "dead," but instead we had him sitting back in the Arrow cave so that Roy and Laurel could go out and mask it up. Or he was left flying the getaway helicopter or driving the getaway car, and that doesn't really have anything to do with Oliver and Felicity. And then there's the Ray factor. If they're going to set up spin-offs they need to do it Barry Allen style for one or two eps, instead of bringing these people into the show for half of/a whole season and sacrificing other character storylines in order to do it.

[calliope1975]

I don't know that Olicity itself sidelined Diggle, but if he's including the Ray stuff as part of the love story mess, then I would agree that took up a lot of time that could have been better used elsewhere. Combined with attempting to make Laurel happen, and yes, the show failed this Diggle. 

 

I hope he's correct that TIIC are going to try to find a better balance, because it seems like each hiatus, they acknowledge what is wrong with the show, say they're going to fix it, then double down on the missteps. 

[jay741982]

I don't understand...why does Emily want to kill Barry so bad? ;)

And why does she want to Marry Fuckboy?

[Password]

And why does she want to Marry Fuckboy?

*snort*

For real.

[FurryFury]

I dunno, maybe she watched The Flash season finale, after that, I'd want to kill Barry as well.

[jay741982]

I dunno, maybe she watched The Flash season finale, after that, I'd want to kill Barry as well.

LOL Felicity would be like WTF Barry!

[wingster55]

What about Laurel and her arc because of Sara's death? What about Thea's arc?

 

IMO it's a bit difficult to place the majority of the blame on them as they weren't consistent in showing it. Both missed episodes in the season. 

I think an overt example is in the crossover when Felicity and Oliver hung out at Jitters and Diggle was nowhere to be seen. That actually still bugs me. Like where was he? Why wasn't he there or shown at Star Labs much/interacting with characters like Joe?

[wonderwall]

Yeah Idk why Diggle wasn't in that jitters scene, it didn't make sense why he wasn't there the first time. The second time I sort of get because it was only a coffee run, but not the first. It wasn't even a very Olicity scene. 

[apinknightmare]

He was probably waiting in the van like always! 

Edited June 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[foreverevolving]

wait which one, the first or the second one?

[Chaser]

The reason I put the majority of the blame in the sidelining of Diggle on Laurel and Ray is because they took over for Diggle in a way Felicity/Olicity could not. The entire Laurel-BC arc required Diggle to sit on his hands. In Broken Arrow, Diggle could have been out there in place of Oliver but they sent Ray out there instead. 

 

Him not being there for coffee wasn't a big deal for me because it was a small scene that he wasn't needed for narratively (I wouldn't have minded him there of course. Imagine Iris' reaction to his arm size LOL). I minded him not being in the field for the BC arc because it made NO sense. 

[statsgirl]

Him not being there for coffee wasn't a big deal for me because it was a small scene that he wasn't needed for narratively (I wouldn't have minded him there of course. Imagine Iris' reaction to his arm size LOL). I minded him not being in the field for the BC arc because it made NO sense. 

It was a small scene and part of the purpose of it was for Oliver to tell Barry that guys like them don't get the girl (ie. Felicity and Iris) to anvil Barry's problems.  Diggle wouldn't have had a point in that scene any more than Cisco would.  Felicity, as a computer genius, had a point being at STAR labs, not to mention she had already appeared on The Flash to help form Team Flash.  Narratively, there was little for Diggle to do in those scenes but that had little to do with Olicity.  What do you think he should have done in terms of the story?  Meeting Joe and hanging out with him is dead air IMO.   And once they moved back to Starling City, Diggle had lots to do, and got Lyla involved too .

 

 

I think it'd affect him the most though. Laurel/Katie having an arc? That's happened every season. 

 

 

It wasn't that she had an arc, it's what happened during that time which is that they needed to show her out in the field and so Diggle got left behind working comms as Laurel and Roy went out together, Diggle was relegated to helicopter duty while Laurel and Roy, the two worst fighters, were going after Brick, and I think even after Oliver got back he went out with Laurel while Diggle stayed behind.

Someone did a time analysis (I don't remember who now) and the amount of time that Oliver and Felicity spent discussing their relationship was about 2% of the season.  And Diggle got some time in there with Oliver, in The Calm and Draw Back Your Bow especially, talking to him about Felicity.

 

When Oliver was gone/dead, that's when Diggle should have had a lot of screentime because he was the fighter, the guy who should have been leading the team. Diggle should have been the one giving orders in the field.  But instead, they wanted to make Black Canary and The Atom happen, and Diggle got short shrift.  That's nothing to do with Olicity.

[lemotomato]

I think it'd affect him the most though. Laurel/Katie having an arc? That's happened every season. 

Olicity focuses on the two characters he has the most screen time with. If they have an arc that focuses on just them...what's Diggle going to do then? 

That's a good point about Laurel. If DR feels that Diggle got sidelined because of Olicity this season, I wonder how he felt about what happened in 2B, when both he and Felicity disappeared because Sara, Laurel, and Lance family drama took over. I actually felt that Diggle had more to do in 3B than he did last year. 

[DrSpaceman10]

Diggle actually had more slightly more screentime in Season Three than he had in Season Two. That's not to say screentime = story, but I'd say he had about the same amount of story in S3 as in S2. I think it's possible that Diggle might have also had more scenes with Oliver this season than last season. If I remember correctly, Oliver/Diggle didn't have any substantial scenes together from mid-S2 to the end of S2.

Screentime from here: http://forgingfire.tumblr.com/tagged/screentime

Edited June 8, 2015 by DrSpaceman10

[olicityfan25]

I think it'd affect him the most though. Laurel/Katie having an arc? That's happened every season.

Olicity focuses on the two characters he has the most screen time with. If they have an arc that focuses on just them...what's Diggle going to do then?

Except Felicity and Oliver have never had an arc. They've had what like 2 episodes? The Calm and The Fallen. Laurel/Katie has had multiple unnecessary arcs.

[Ceylon5]

Also, Felicity and Oliver have always had scenes that were just the two of them - right from her very first episode - so the fact that those scenes contained romantic angst this season instead of whatever they contained before really makes no difference to Diggle or anyone else.  The actual amount of alone time they had didn't markedly differ from previous years.  

 

Maybe David is peeved more about the fact the Felicity and Diggle's quality time together was definitely minimised this year.  That was indirectly caused by the relationship angst because they wrote it as that kind of being the driving force sending her out of the lair (away from Diggle) and into Palmer Tech.  That's the fault of how the arc was written, though - Diggle could have been written as being sweet and supportive of Felicity in her difficulties over Oliver and given them tons of bonding moments, but instead they had him, for some reason I can't explain, being somehow on Oliver's team (instead of being there for both of them, since they're both his friends).  Which was another thing that made the season suck, because Felicity and Diggle's relationship is one of the show's cornerstones.

[catahoulamama]

It wasn't that she had an arc, it's what happened during that time which is that they needed to show her out in the field and so Diggle got left behind working comms as Laurel and Roy went out together, Diggle was relegated to helicopter duty while Laurel and Roy, the two worst fighters, were going after Brick, and I think even after Oliver got back he went out with Laurel while Diggle stayed behind.

Someone did a time analysis (I don't remember who now) and the amount of time that Oliver and Felicity spent discussing their relationship was about 2% of the season.  And Diggle got some time in there with Oliver, in The Calm and Draw Back Your Bow especially, talking to him about Felicity.

 

When Oliver was gone/dead, that's when Diggle should have had a lot of screentime because he was the fighter, the guy who should have been leading the team. Diggle should have been the one giving orders in the field.  But instead, they wanted to make Black Canary and The Atom happen, and Diggle got short shrift.  That's nothing to do with Olicity.

THIS. THIS. THIS! 

The fact that Diggle was left running the coms, flying the helicopter, or driving the van when the two weakest fighters and least experienced went out to save the city was utterly ridiculous in every way. Seeing Diggle sitting behind a desk in the lair during Oliver's absence was one of the biggest WTF story decisions this season IMO. #fail

Edited June 8, 2015 by catahoulamama

[tarotx]

That's the decision we are taking about as a poor show decision. After Oliver dying no way is it believable for his character. Plus he still hasn't found HIVE. Though this is a probably topic of the Diggle or relationship or some show related thread.

Diggle already removed himself from the field..

Edited June 8, 2015 by tarotx

[tarotx]

Ra's had already attacked the city and would continue doing so until Oliver accepted his heir to the Demon calling. Oliver was working on saving the city and protecting this team when Thea was killed.

[statsgirl]

Ra's was threatening people in the city to first get Oliver to find Sara's killer (which still doesn't make sense since he was opposed to her relationship with Nyssa and couldn't care less when Nyssa first pushed him to do it), and later he was killing people to destroy the Arrow so that Oliver would have to take him up on his offer.  But at those points, Oliver didn't know that Ra's would raze Starling City if he accepted the offer though.

[MatthewtheRaven]

Oliver:  The "Am I Arrow or Oliver?" identity issue was, I assume, meant to resolve into him reaching the conclusion that he wasn't either one or the other, but both simultaneously.  They boiled it down to a nice easy show and tell of "If I'm Arrow, I can't be with Felicity; if I'm Oliver, I can be with Felicity", and so he chose Option A for most of the season and then switched to Option B at the very end.  How did that resolve anything?  He never resolved his duality, and colour me hard to please, but one line at the end saying that he's someone new and he'd like Felicity to help him discover who that person is, is NOT a resolution to an identity dilemma, especially when it followed right on the heels of him repeating his "I can't be the Arrow and be with you, but this time I'm choosing you" (which to my ears sounded like him having learned absolutely nothing since the first episode) and it was a back-handed compliment at that, since the Arrow wasn't really a viable option anymore.  It made it sound like he thought the "new" person wasn't either Arrow or Oliver, instead of him realising that he's both at the same time and that they're not mutually exclusive.  In other words, next season (or possibly during the hiatus) is when he'll actually solve the identity dilemma ...

 

While I agree with several things in your post I don't with this.

 

Season 3 presented Oliver's identity dilemma: is he the Oliver Queen identity or The Arrow identity? Most of us, myself included, thought the conclusion to this would be 'both' but there was another option most of us never considered: neither. And that's the resolution of Oliver's season 3 identity dilemma: he's neither the Oliver Queen identity or the Arrow identity. As Felicity told him, he's become someone, something else. I assume who that is is what season 4 will explore, as you mention. Therefore I wouldn't say season 3 failed to give a resolution to the identity dilemma presented; it just wasn't the one we expected. In the question of "Am I Option A or Option B?" the answer was neither Option A, Option B or even 'both', but 'neither'. His duality was resolved by removing both options. 

 

I'm not saying I liked it or it's the way I would have written it - it's not - but it's also not really true to claim Oliver's season 3 identity dilemma wasn't resolved. It was, in an unexpected (IMO dumb) way. Hopefully it, and he, will become someone and something else in season 4.

 

Also, saying Oliver learned "absolutely nothing" is IMO not only harsh but makes me wonder if we're watching the same show as it dismisses all his character growth, but that's a discussion for another day (and thread).

Edited June 9, 2015 by MatthewtheRaven

[wonderwall]

The Ray/Felicity thing wasn't even a setup for Olicity in the end though. It was just another unnecessary complication.

[GreatAtBoats]

I know what show I was watching. It was the show where all but about four out of 23 episodes of the season had to feature a significant Olicity moment in some way even when Oliver was supposed to be "dead," and the whole season wrapped up with Oliver giving up his crusade to drive off with Felicity. No, not literally every second of every episode was about Olicity, but there was an Olicity arc throughout the entire season whereas other characters only got the spotlight once in a while and most of the other relationships were pushed aside or entirely ignored to somehow fit Olicity in when it didn't belong. Even Tatsu and the al Ghuls had to be made about Olicity.

You want to blame Diggle being sidelined on Laurel, fine, but I know who took the focus off of Diggle during "his" supposed episode and his two-minute wedding and it definitely was not Laurel.

Edited June 9, 2015 by GreatAtBoats

[olicityfan25]

lol at that. So I guess we can't have happy people at a wedding. Let's not forget the whole Laurel and Oliver scene where Laurel exhales as Oliver touches her shoulder like she just had an orgasm. So Diggle tells Ray that he has Felicity's back. That's what a friend does when they just meet the new guy. Or do you mean that when Felicity and Oliver are together when they get a message on the phone? Yeah so much Olicity in the episode. This is sarcasm if you can't tell.

Diggle got sidelined for Laurel where it matters. In the field. Oliver got sidelined for Laurel. They had to "kill" the guy for her to get space on the show. That's what makes her worse than any Olicity arc you can come up with.

Edited June 10, 2015 by olicityfan25

[catahoulamama]

lol at that. So I guess we can't have happy people at a wedding. Let's not forget the whole Laurel and Oliver scene where Laurel exhales as Oliver touches her shoulder like she just had an orgasm. So Diggle tells Ray that he has Felicity's back. That's what a friend does when they just meet the new guy. Or do you mean that when Felicity and Oliver are together when they get a message on the phone? Yeah so much Olicity in the episode.

Diggle got sidelined for Laurel where it matters. In the field. Oliver got sidelined for Laurel. They had to "kill" the guy for her to get space on the show. That's what makes her worse than any Olicity arc you can come up with.

^THIS...and actually they had to "kill" TWO characters for her to get her mask & arc on the show - Sara and Oliver.

 

Despite the fact that Felicity spent much of the season with Ray, it's still all about Olicity? Curious what the criteria is for it to have *not* been considered "a season long Olicity arc" - both of them ignoring the very existence of the other in all scenes all season? Or one or both being off screen?

[WaitandHope]

I totally agree he chose neither, but I still have a hard time reconciling that with the name of the episode being "My Name is Oliver Queen."  The title implied that he chose one over the other -- when I think you are correct, MatthewtheRaven, he actually chose neither.  But then there was the title, which is a goosebumps-inducing, game-changing episode title, if only it had been true...

[Ceylon5]

Anyway, you can't "choose" to simply not be any part of yourself.  It's a physical, mental and emotional impossibility.  And I'm even less sold on the idea of Oliver introducing a THIRD brand-new persona into his already disturbed and fractured identity.  To my mind, his only way of progressing is to integrate all the pieces of himself back together (which is what, for me, would be resolving his identity crisis).  Otherwise he's just splitting his personality even further, which is not helpful.  To say that he is rejecting parts of himself (by choosing neither instead of embracing both) is to simply regress him one step further and make him even less psychologically healthy than he was in episode one.  I don't mind him calling himself a "new man", provided the new man is in reality just him coming to terms with all the different facets of himself, but that hasn't actually been shown yet, which is why I don't think they effectively resolved this by season's end.  If he's claiming to be a "new man" as in rejecting his old self/selves, then that's just a giant red flag and someone needs to call a shrink STAT!

 

ETA: To clarify, when I refer to episode one, I'm talking about Season 3, not the series pilot.  My recent comments all refer to this season only.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Ceylon5

[MatthewtheRaven]

I don't agree choosing 'neither' is regressing him at all when the season 3 finale hammered it home that he's become something/someone else. Agreed, you can't choose to not be a part of your (old) self because you will always carry those parts with you, but you can choose to become something else, something more. 

 

Therefore, he is not rejecting his old self/selves; Oliver Queen and The Arrow are identities that was. He is now reconciling what they've made him into, hence him telling Felicity "[he'd] like to discover a little more about that person". He stated he wants to discover who he's become, which is not a rejection of his self but a becoming of something other. Simply put: he's moving on. To what - which might very well prove to be a merging of both, perchance a step beyond - I assume season 4 will show us.

 

On the whole, discussing Oliver’s mental health feels a moot point since we all know he’s less than mentally healthy. Hopefully with what he's been through, and now, with Felicity by his side, he'll become something that at the very least is healthier than before.

[kismet]

Oh and we are back to the Therapy sessions for OQ... He needs a good amount of quality therapy to work through all of the stuff in his head. Anyone, who refers to themselves in the 3rd person on a regular basis has some pretty deep seeded identity issues. He must be having a mental existential crisis every week, that must be really exhausting for him, no wonder he is such an ass sometimes. A recurring dream in which you try to solve an unanswerable question, the psychologists & psychiatrists would go crazy for an opportunity to figure out OQ.

 

Ceylon 5 -  I think you are right that he needs to integrate the different facets of his identity and become whole again. I also am not sure we fully resolved the Identity issue either as he left the city for a well needed/deserved vacation. Anyone can be who they want to be while on holiday when the day to day stressors & pressures are lifted. It is when he returns that we will see this new identity tested and that may be the strongest proof of how s3 resolved the ID issue & discovered a fully integrated OQ. I think we saw & he saw who he wanted to be so in that way they did resolve that portion of the Identity crisis. Its just a matter of if he can achieve it. He spent a lot of the past 3 seasons very lost & not really knowing who he wanted to be.

 

I think in s1 he knew who he was (Olie Queen) & who he had become (Hood, vigilante & assassin). While in s2 he saw what people wanted him to be (brother, son, ceo, hero) & tried to be all those without understanding the how or why to be. He maybe even wanted that vision of himself as a hero to stick and not the murderer he had been. S3 I think he thought he could just pick and choose what identity fit him, but Sara's death made him realize that wasn't always an option. Sometimes there are outside factors that control your destiny because of the choices you make. So I think he had a lot of identities to choose from. But since the island, he never really gave thought to who or what he really wanted to be. He was who he had to be to survive. And it worked for 8 years. Who he was didn't factor in to his day to day, so he never really put much thought into his Identity. As he gradually lost elements of his identities & roles, he became even more lost. Before s3, he could at least cling to a specific role. But that was no longer an option in s3. I think becoming Al Sha Him wiped the slate clean for him to start over again.

 

I definitely think the writing got a little wonky as the writers tried to summarize and conclude their great journey into Identity. Psychologists & Psychiatrists they are not. Their intentions were good in the beginning, but they didn't give themselves enough patience in the end to really disarm & resolve the psychological minefields that they had set-up for 3 seasons. So it was a little rough & tumble landing. Basically, if I were to grade their execution of the landing on the Identity theme it would be like the plane crash in the finale. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't that good, but it landed and all the living passengers made it out alive - the plane eeeh not so much.

[hogwash]

Reading the S03 Oliver/Felicity discussion in the relationships thread just makes me even more annoyed with what S03 did to Oliver/Felicity. Outside of some minor hiccups in 2B, S02's transition from Oliver/Laurel to Oliver/Felicity was freaking amazing. S03 squandered that buildup for the worst kind of angst and a badly written Tony/Pepper AU. They had no intention putting Oliver/Felicity together until E20 but decided some romantic angst was a perfect way to keep them apart in the meantime. Great. Fine. Whatever. Except for the fact that one freaking almost date and a weird hospital breakup is a crap foundation for EIGHTEEN episodes of romantic angst. Especially for budding/nonexistent romantic relationship. 

 

It didn't help that the breakup was dumb. He can't be Oliver Queen and be the Arrow??? Since when? Wasn't a problem in S01. Granted, sometimes the Oliver Queen persona came off very calculating and fake. But he mostly pulled it off. By S02, he was really getting hang of juggling his different identities and even forging new ones. He can't be with Felicity and be the Arrow? The playboy thing is a little overblown but Oliver managed to get around even during his S01 spree killer days. I'm on this forum so obviously I get that Felicity is “different” from Sara/Helena/McKenna/Laurel/etc. for Oliver. His hesitation is a delightful combination of that “the life I lead” speech and that longing look at Felicity with Lyla and baby. He thinks love, marriage, and a baby carriage when it comes to Felicity, which doesn't really gel with his death wish/PTSD. I get it but, I wanted to see that IN the show!

 

Honestly, they should have nixed the date/breakup but kept the flirting and the ILU ambiguity. Add some Laurel/Sara bonding or Team Arrow stuff instead of the date. Maybe keep the Diggle conversation about the ILU for the people still insisting it wasn't real... Under those circumstances, most of the subsequent angst could have worked. It would have been clear that both Felicity and Oliver moved from “unthinkable” to “maybe.” Then Sara's murder (UGH S03) happens and Oliver closes off. For Oliver, it would've been absurd to think about a future with his "true love" when his female copy is lying dead on a slab in his vigilante secret headquarters. While Felicity's tendency to overthink (he told me loved me vs it was part of the ruse; 5+ months of flirty flirt vs it was just our usual weirdly intense staring/touching) would've made it hard for her to go back to “unthinkable.” Sara's murder mystery (UGH S03) happening takes even thinking about the possibility off the table for both, but the distance/uneasiness only lasts a couple of episodes. Then just when you think they're on the mend, the Ninja!Thea killed Sara reveal (WHY S03?! WHY!) happens. The midseason finale ILU stays since Oliver is off to die (UGH S03). But Felicity's lack of response seems more like a "What could she possibly say to that?!" moment instead of a "Let's wait til sweeps!" thing. 

 

After that, the wedge from the Merlyn team-up (UGH S03) could have kept them apart on its own until E20. All of the Ray Palmer stuff (UGH S03) would have come off like an unconscious reaction to Oliver's BS. I thought Raylicity was a waste of time but I especially loathed that a lot of it seemed like Felicity choosing to go after and cling to something similar (but creepy) because Oliver wasn't available. It also would have made *Felicity's not fighting for Oliver* a less valid argument. Think of the Return. Felicity's “snippy attitude” (ugh, I need to stick to this forum) would have no ties to the "maybe" romantic relationship. Plus, Oliver wouldn't have been dumb enough to immediately point to that (punchable offense imo). 

 

I guess I just don't like that Oliver/Felicity was one of the problems with S03. Before they were always one of the pluses (props to the Lance family for being a consistent minus!)...

Edited June 10, 2015 by hogwash

[wonderwall]

I guess I just don't like that Oliver/Felicity was one of the problems with S03. Before they were always one of the pluses (props to the Lance family for being a consistent minus!)...

 

IMO keeping them apart was a huge problem. Now that they'r together, I hope that Oliver/Felicity can become one of the strengths of season 4.

 

Keeping them apart was unnatural and weird and required Oliver to be an idiot and Felicity to 'be snippy' (even though I completely understood where she came from). So yeah, I need them to be happy because this season, as much as I love this couple, did a disservice to them. BUT IMO It's not unsalvageable by any means. In fact, I LOVE how the writers left things with them. I want them to be happier. I want them to work as a team, and I really do think that they'll do that next season. 

 

I have a good feeling about season 4. IDK why, and it's probably stupid because I should definitely enter the season with zero expectations. But as long as Oliver/Felicity are happy, Diggle/Oliver get over their issues, Felicity/Diggle bond more, and Diggle/Felicity get their own arcs, I'll be content. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

I feel like there were some big season long arcs in S3. Ra's, BC, Thea/Malcolm, ATOM, Olicity. Sadly, I would say they all failed in varying degrees. 

 

Ra's/LOA was weak, inconsistent and uninteresting (the worse part of S3 in my opinion).

 

BC featured numerous logic fails and lacked a foundation to be anything other than an insult to the audience and show. It also caused Sara's death and Lance's turn. All bad things.

 

ATOM was completely detached from the storyline, to the point it felt like another show and Arrow stars were supporting (also an insult).

 

Olicity was…sad. The angst-heavy storyline required the characters to suspend some of development of the past two season. Obviously, in someways they took big steps forward but they also took completely contrived steps back. Too many of their interactions were painful.

 

Thea/Malcolm made no sense. At all. I loved Thea's growth in the later part of the season, but the first part of the season was painful to watch. Thea had no control, no agency. She was a puppet. Malcolm was one ridiculous plot hole after another. I love JB, but this was stupid.

 

The show had some good moments, but they were rarely the big moments.

Edited June 10, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Chaser]

I made the mistake of reading the comments on the IGN article and …. seriously? 

 

The number of people saying she should be dead and killed off in the most horrific way possible, the people who just talked about her ass and said if she would just 'shut up and put on a skimpy dress' they would like her again, the number of people who apparently didn't pay attention this season because Felicity did nothing of value and just cried over billionaires. 

 

No wonder Felicity fans are staying away from comment sections. 

 

Fan-service shouldn't even hold water at this point. Go to comment sections and Felicity is the most hated character ever and no one could ever like her. Look at polls and twitter nominations and tumblr and she is the most popular character ever. And then you have Laurel, who comment sections are now praising and yet she gets no traction on any popularity contests (twitter nominations, fan polls, conventions). It all depends on where you stand.

[dtissagirl]

Well, Twitter is tracked by Nielsen and social media activity is tracked by the industry at large, so that actively matters for the network and the studio. Comments sections? Not so much.

[Sakura12]

Felicity fans are just seeing what Laurel fans feel and Sara fans felt after she hooked up with Oliver (Olicity fans and Laurel/Oliver fans banded together for that one). I had to stop going my tumblr for 2 months because of that. I know I've done it for Laurel because I still think she sucks but I don't leave hateful comments everywhere, I just vent on this forum.

[Ceylon5]

I still don't understand the sudden irrational hatred for Felicity that just suddenly seemed to appear out of nowhere earlier this year.  Prior to that, she was largely well-liked on sites like IGN and AV Club, as well as most other places.  Then it's like a bunch of people woke up one day a few months ago and decided to spew hate every time her name came up (and quite frequently when it didn't).  And now it's gathered momentum and become a Thing.

 

Most posters also say, "I liked her in S1 and S2, but now I hate her".  The reverse has been true of Laurel.  Though the praise for her is still largely pretty faint, the general dislike of her for the first two and a half seasons seems to have been transferred to Felicity.  What I don't get is that instead of simply saying, "I hope they start writing her properly again", they suddenly just want her dead.  If Laurel could be improved and Felicity used to be well liked, why wouldn't they simply want her to be better written again, instead of suddenly wanting her gone?  I really don't understand the mentality.  No women on this show should EVER be killed off again.  Why would they even suggest such a thing?

 

I think this is a classic example of mob mentality, where people do weird, inexplicable and often horrific things because they're caught up in a feeding frenzy of craziness.  That's why it's confined to certain places where that mentality was able to gain traction.  On sites with enough people who are faithful fans of the character or who at least have good manners, they had no impact at all, and without the snowball effect of horridness to sustain them, the few who wanted to be misogynistic douches simply got ignored.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Ceylon5

[tarotx]

Felicity and Olicity fans comment. They just get attacked. There was a Male Olicity fan in the Overtv KC s3 mvp article and his sexuality was attacked.

Though I have defended Sara and Talked about how I think she's the best live action version of BC, and I was attacked as being a Felicity fan in disguise. So I can understand if Felicity fans just stay out of the comments.

Edited June 10, 2015 by tarotx

[quarks]

Well, that's why showrunners/networks rarely look at just one data set.  With Arrow, they have multiple data sets: ratings, total viewers, Twitter, Amazon, Google Play and iTunes subscriptions/individual episode sales, Hulu, Netflix, DVD/Blu-Ray sales, IMDB ratings (I don't know if WB looks at these for Arrow; they do for other shows), critical response, fan response at conventions, internet polls, and so on.  Internet forums are just one part of that.  And the key there is overall trends, not reactions to individual episodes.

 

Also, sometimes this data can be contradictory. Sara, for example, was/is popular on internet forums and at conventions, but that popularity didn't always get reflected in the ratings/total viewers - that is, until the viewer reaction to the end of "The Calm," where ratings/total viewers understandably plummeted. 

 

I think it's also important to remember that  WB and the CW don't really care if we like Arrow or not; they just want us to watch Arrow and hopefully buy Arrow related products - DVDs, licensed material, the music albums and so on.  So the issue isn't whether or not fans hate particular characters/plot developments, but whether or not those particular characters/plot developments meant that people stopped watching the show.  Whatever else can be said for or against season three, it did do slightly better in the ratings/total viewers than season two did.  

[hogwash]

It's hard to take that stuff seriously. It'd be one thing if it was one off thing. But these comment sections are a running gag at this point. Iris West, Skye, Sara Lance, Laurel Lance, Felicity etc. She sucks, Mary Sue, kill her off, her character is hopeless, she's killing the show, etc. I don't even watch Gotham and I've heard about the same rumblings about his wife(girlfriend?) who apparently sucks and needs to die..because she's ruining the show. Same shit; different comic book show. Besides Laurel Lance is still around and kicking despite ample opportunities and her disastrous S02 arc so obviously the Arrow's showrunners aren't listening. Felicity is great. 

 

I have a good feeling about season 4. IDK why, and it's probably stupid because I should definitely enter the season with zero expectations. But as long as Oliver/Felicity are happy, Diggle/Oliver get over their issues, Felicity/Diggle bond more, and Diggle/Felicity get their own arcs, I'll be content. 

 

I got burned pretty badly by Thea's arc and S03 killed my expectations. Utter dreck. But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited about the possibility of Felicity and Diggle getting the focus. Three seasons of Lance family drama is more than enough. They're are an irrational and unforgiving group of people who I frankly don't really care for anymore. I don't want anymore

(Sara's resurrection aside)

of them. Bring on the Diggle and Smoak family drama. 

 

EDIT: I just realized the order of characters coincides with the most common whinge about said character. Weird. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by hogwash

[Velocity23]

I just find it hilarious that the journalist is on twitter fav tweets that say great interview awful comment section and that they avoid it like plague. To which he responds good choice.