Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like this will only happen when they stop writing for plot and start writing for character. Hopefully Wendy Mericle is better at plotting than writing! I really hope she brings in a great new perspective. I want to see her succeed in help righting the Arrow ship.

I don't have high hopes or anything, in fact I have no hopes, but I do wish that would happen.  I so used to love Arrow, and I have some residual fondness for Oliver, Felicity, and Diggle.  It would be nice if S3 is an anomaly rather than the norm, and S4 comes back awesome.

[Chaser]

They got over confident. They were running on a critic's and fan high, and then they got Ra's from DC. They must have been on cloud nine. Arrow went BIG and COMICS this year and forgot about the characters they were actually writing.

[Sakura12]

I'm not a fan of Olicity, but the show was ruined for me when they tossed Sara at a dumpster.

[dtissagirl]

If 'shippers on social media -- majorly young and female -- were really influencing storyline on a property not only owned by a billionaire conglomerate, but aimed at the 18-34 male demo [the CW president JUST THIS PAST THURSDAY again proudly spoke of Arrow as one of the few shows bringing in male eyeballs to the network], that would be insanely revolutionary. Maybe I'm missing that particular feminist statement Arrow has been doing this season, by catering to young women on the internets who really love romance.

Except I see the exact opposite, which: forever bitter. All I want is for TV to cater to 'shippers online, cos those are my peeps. And my demo.

[millennium]

nm

Edited May 17, 2015 by millennium

[olicityfan25]

Exactly dancingnancy. If we had so much influence then we would have had way more information about Felicity's dad.

This show caters to the male demographic so much + all the comic fans who got to see freaking Laurel be called black canary before green arrow.

[nksarmi]

I'm not a fan of Olicity, but the show was ruined for me when they tossed Sara at a dumpster.

I could have lived with the choice if the person who did it wasn't handed the LoA and had Nyssa kneel before him.  But as everyone else has said, much of the stupid this season has centered around Malcolm Merlyn.

 

And if the show runners pander to anyone - I think it's themselves.

[Morrigan2575]

After reading this MG interview I can honestly say that he is responsible for all the things that went wrong in Arrow S3 (IMO).

http://io9.com/marc-guggenheim-on-arrow-legends-of-tomorrow-and-his-n-1704792903

Maybe MG needs a co-showrunner, someone to keep him in check? I've decided (right.or wrong) that GB promoted Wendy Mercile to give MG the counter balance he had with AJK. At least until she proves me wrong and makes S4 even worse. LOL.

[KirkB]

Well, I'll say one thing for that interview. It was better than Joss Whedon's after Buffy's season 6. HE came out and said that while they knew how dark each episode was they somehow didn't realize how dark it was all going to be put together. MG isn't apologetic for his show being the way he wants it to be and I can respect that. But then he turns around and says they're going to lighten it next season and I don't get that. He says he likes it dark. Why would a show runner want to change the tone of the show if it's already the way he wants it?

 

Honestly, after the overall disappointment of this season, the only thing I'm hoping for (which I know I'm not going to get) is no flashbacks. Since they obviously aren't going away I hope they at least fit better and make SOME narrative sense.

[FurryFury]

As much as I hate season 6 of Buffy, being dark isn't something I fault it for. There's nothing wrong with a story taking a darker turn for a time, as long as the writing is good. Which it wasn't, in that case. I never hated the darkness in Angel, and that show had a whole lot of darkness. 

[dtissagirl]

MG isn't apologetic for his show being the way he wants it to be and I can respect that. But then he turns around and says they're going to lighten it next season and I don't get that. He says he likes it dark. Why would a show runner want to change the tone of the show if it's already the way he wants it?

 

When he said there's a collective desire to add some light/humor next season, I legit read "collective desire" as the network executives told him to. I also figure that since the other two shows are lighter in tone, making Arrow less grimdark works better for the YAY CROSSOVERS state of mind of the network.

[Chaser]

The answer to the Batman comparison. Really? Bruce makes the right choices and Oliver doesn't. Is that really want it comes down too?

[nksarmi]

When he said there's a collective desire to add some light/humor next season, I legit read "collective desire" as the network executives told him to. I also figure that since the other two shows are lighter in tone, making Arrow less grimdark works better for the YAY CROSSOVERS state of mind of the network.

Yea I'm sorry but its a little skitzo for the show runners to say ok you're on Flash now so you get to be lighter and more fun.  From a viewing perspective, it's like wait, wtf?

 

MG might like that Arrow is a little darker, but they have to know they took it too far this season.  I think that's why they've been saying season three ends a trilogy and the show will go in a slightly different direction next year, etc... I think everyone - from the actors to the writers - have gotten the message - stop making Oliver such an idiotic douchebag.  Flash is basically making fun of him.

 

We need to see a smarter, happier, and yes even funnier Oliver in the present - it's time, we've earned it. 

[GirlvsTV]

I'm bitter that judging by this season, MG mistakenly seems to think being dark = making the characters miserable all. the. time.

Daredevil had a dark/gritty tone but I never felt like I needed to take antidepressants after watching an episode the way I did for a majority of Arrow's this year.

[catrox14]

GB makes no secret that his favorite character is The Flash.  I'm bitter because I think Arrow/Oliver Queen was sacrificed at the alter of The Flash and to expand the DC brand to compete with Marvel's universe.

 

I think they used Arrow to test the waters after Smallville and to see how willing an audience there was for a non Batman - non Superman show and to get an audience that liked Nolan's Batman and still kept it lighter for Green Arrow fans through s1 and s2. They took the really  good resources and storytellers for The Flash but then they couldn't exactly just pull the rug out from Arrow so they left it in MG's not so great hands.

 

Now, mind you I have zero problem with Dark!Arrow because it started out pretty damn dark and I knew it was essentially Batman-lite and I was okay with that from the get go. It was their adaptation of Green Arrow and it was a really awesome story until they got green lit to run with the Flash. 

 

Then they  just had to make Laurel Lance into Black Canary no matter how utterly inorganic it was especially after they had a perfect Black Canary with Sara.  So they killed her for Laurel's ascension. Gross.

 

Then they got the bright idea to make the ATOM into not!Iron Man and let's give him not!Pepper Potts with Raylicity just for the fucking flying suit that has to be shrunk any way for the ATOM.  The stupid it BURNS.

 

The fucking IIC crashed the brilliant mothership to get the whole L.o.T of them on TV.

 

Forever bitter.

Edited May 17, 2015 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

S3 Arrow wasn't dark or edgy (IMO) it was merely depressing with massive doses of plot driven stupidity and characters being forced OOC.

Recent Dark/Edgy shows/stories (I'm sure there are more examples especially on The Originals...Klaus is a Magnificent Bastard afterall)

Constantine - forcing his junkie buddy to become a demon vessel so he could kill the demon (with his buddy's death an acceptable sacrifice). Also, John's ex-girlfriend shooting Constantine and leaving him to be demon bait in order to save the baby/herself

TVD - Kai killing pregnant Joe and her twins in the middle of the wedding ceremony

then himself/entire family.

Originals - Klaus compelling Gia to kill herself via burning to death in front of Elijah (her lover/mentor), cursing Haley and by extension her wolf pack into wolf form and forcing Marcel/Rebekah to into killing her human body thus robbing Rebekah of everything she wanted as punishment for their betrayal.

Supernatural also has a long history of being very dark/edgy (Sam killing Nurse Nancy, Dean killing Amy, Sam willing to kill the virgin in Jus in Bello, Dean's most recent actions).

Spoiler for Grimm finale since it just aired

Grimm just had Juliette go totally evil and participate in the death of her boyfriend's mother, leaving her decapitated head in a box in their living room (ala Seven). As well as having 4 year old Star Child (Diana) point out her grandfather's impending murder then gleefully clapping/smiling at the murderer (her former protector). Juliette also ended the episode trying to kill Nick and then getting killed herself by another Grimm (hopefully it's permanent)

These are fairly dark/edgy stories, actions, shows, on Network TV. If we toss in cable, Penny Dreadful, The Walking Dead and Games of Thrones are all dearker/edgier shows that are still good and have various moments of light/humor (dark though it may be).

If Arrow was truly dark/edgy, they would have had Thea willingly kill Sara or Oliver willing to let the team be poisoned in order to fulfill the mission. They could have had torture Lyla or Diggle for information on Nyssa.

MG talks about Arrow being dark but it's not, they take cheats and outs, they want to be dark but don't actually have the guts to go there. So what you're left with isn't dark/edgy it melodramatic stupidity (IMO).

BTW I'm not advocating for dark/edgy, Oliver killing recurring characters but I was quite surprised to see the recent on all those shows compared to Arrow when you had MG and SA going on about Evil Oliver and his actions

Edited May 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[tarotx]

I realize I'm a broken record but imo this season had so much potential even with the stupidity of Melcolm using Thea to kill Sara and Laurel lying to Quinton and Felicity on Ray's island :(

Imo the casting of Ra's was a HUGE failure. The motives of Melcolm, Nyssa and Oliver fall on their fear of Ra's. I couldn't see that with actor Matt Noble. Also Meseo, Nyssa and many many extras have this need to give up everything for Ra's and the league's code. So we needed an actor who could portray Menacing and one who can give off serenity so his promise of retaliation and peace are believable. We needed an actor who would make a good cult leader. So MN's casting failed Arrow.

As for Olicity what failed them was Oliver and Felicity having half a date But the show playing them as long term lovers Who pine but can't be together cause Oliver's manpain. I think they must have had mapped out s3 when Laurel was still the main love interest.

Olicity should have got together and stayed together all of 3a. That made sense for them. Oliver has commitment issues from before the island and since. He has never had to be fully present in any of his relationships(even family and team Arrow). That should have been the conflict. But it should have just been a background conflict. The fear mentioned with Felicity holding back her I love you because she knows what it's liked to be left. But no real couple fights or crying.

The stupiduty of Melcolm having Thea kill Sara aside, it should have been used to bring Oliver into the League. Ra's should have "killed" Thea for Sara's death in the episode we all find out or the next. Ra's could have been impressed with Oliver and Team Arrow's attempt at killing him for revenge. The fight to the near death ends with Ra's laughing in Oliver's face as he beats him. But because Oliver's death wouldn't be within code Ra's would just Knock him out instead.

We would then see Ra's and Melcolm talking about How interesting Oliver was with what has happened on the island and since and also with having team Arrow follow him. Ra's could decide then that having Sara Killed wasn't enough. He wanted Nyssa married with heirs and Oliver Would make for a good choice. All of that decision would be heavily influenced by Melcolm Talking Up Oliver.

Melcolm would come visit a beaten Oliver sitting by a brain dead thea's hospital bed. Oliver would learn that if he joined the league Ra's would save Thea via the Lazarus Pit. Oliver wouldn't believe Melcolm though.

In the name of Ra's, Melcolm would set out to destroy Oliver's purpose in Starling. He would send Evil Arrows out to ruin Oliver's repertation. Roy would still scarface himself and team Arrow Saving him and him going on the run. Roy would have more reason with believing Thea dead.

Melcolm and Ra's would this time send Meseo to again give Oliver the chance to save Thea. Oliver would be so low with all the loss (Dead Sara&Thea, on the run Roy and of course The loss of Arrow). He would accept the chance.

Oliver leaving Starling and Felicity would be in character both the to save Thea and also with the hinted commitment issue fear.

Then 3b would play out Oliver being "brainwashed" and the rise of ATOM and the vigilante Laurel (who really should have been given a manhunter suit even if she took Sara's Canary name eventually being black Canary cause her father is p!seed her) and even Raylicity Would work since AlShihim Oliver would be engaged to Nyssa.

Thea would have patches where she was't all there but her relationship with Laurel and team Arrow would help. She would go find Ray and their last day coukd still play out similarly but the Thea going back made together Because her being with Ray risked him being duscovered. Both her being tabloid queen Thea who dated Roy as well as her mental instability.

Oh well here's too future better casting and to organic story telling & character development!

Edited May 17, 2015 by tarotx

[catrox14]

Yeah I was laughing at the idea that Oliver was "eeevuuul" because I'm a huge Supernatural gal and my gods...the boys are DARK  and they have had Crowley so the worst shittiest things and even the angels are dicks and do "evil" things to accomplish their goals. So yeah..whatever, MG.  He just seems to get off on punishing Oliver for kicks now.

[icandigit]

What better demonstration of the degree to which Olicity is driving this show than the simple fact that you can't even bitch about Olicity in the BITTERNESS thread without being told you're wrong.

I wasn't responding to whatever it was you posted. I've just been skimming reviews and review comments and came here to vent about it.

Edited May 17, 2015 by icandigit

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah I was laughing at the idea that Oliver was "eeevuuul" because I'm a huge Supernatural gal and my gods...the boys are DARK and they have had Crowley so the worst shittiest things and even the angels are dicks and do "evil" things to accomplish their goals. So yeah..whatever, MG. He just seems to get off on punishing Oliver for kicks now.

Supernatural really is the perfect example of a dark show and I don't really recall Kripke, Gambel or Carver really patting themselves on the back going Yes, we're super darkwhile not actually having their lead characters do actually dark things.

The closest Arrow came (IMO) was Oliver letting TA be poisoned while knowing they were already inoculated. However, even that's not all that edgy, certainly not compared to the way the EP talked it up. Edgy would have been Oliver leaving them all to die because he figured it wouldn't matter anyway since he was going to kill Ra's/himself before the plane reached SC. That would have been edgy and only required ATOM having his nanotech on his suit that activated automatically when an airborne virus was detected thus saving TA. Or they could have come up with something from Tatsu giving them inoculation. Or revealing that MM stole some LP water when Thea was submerged and used that to cure them after they were infected but before actually dying.

[catrox14]

I actually think Oliver killing the drug dealer in the flashback was a dark moment.  I give them props for that. Because yeah he was a POS but Oliver didn't have to kill him.

[Morrigan2575]

I actually think Oliver killing the drug dealer in the flashback was a dark moment. I give them props for that. Because yeah he was a POS but Oliver didn't have to kill him.

Yeah, I wasn't really focusing on past Oliver because MG and SA didn't, in their interviews about dark/evil Oliver. However, you're right past Oliver killing the drug dealer is fairly dark.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I wasn't really focusing on past Oliver because MG and SA didn't, in their interviews about dark/evil Oliver. However, you're right past Oliver killing the drug dealer is fairly dark.

Eh, I am not going to shed any tears for a drug dealer, and I don't give a crap that he tortured that Shrieve guy, either, since he killed a bunch of people.  Nothing Oliver did in present times in S1 bothered me, because he killed a bunch of bad guys and bad guys' henchmen.  If that's as dark as they go, I'm fine.  If he gets involved in human trafficking or some such with the Bratva, that'd be a different story.  

[catrox14]

Oh I didn't have a problem with Oliver killing the drug dealer, but I thought it was kind of dark. But I don't think anything present Oliver has done is that bad. But again my baseline is the Winchesters for ambiguous morality.

[KirkB]

I don't have any problem with dark. You can get some exciting, fascinating to watch story lines out of questionable moral decisions and even deaths. Where I think it becomes an issue is if the show, or the season, is unrelentingly dark and depressing. With no episodes to catch your breath or lighten the mood, it can make something interesting into emotionally draining. Oliver having to compromise his morals and risk losing the respect of his friends for the sake of saving Thea or his city is fine, but when you literally start the season with Sara's brutal, graphic death and the show gets deeper and darker and never lets up, at all, for the rest of the season, it's too much for a lot of people. 

 

The weird thing for me is Oliver's character trajectory over the course of the three seasons. After everything he went through he came back to Starling a cold, remorseless killer determined to clean up the streets by taking out anyone who got in his way. He wasn't looking for allies, didn't even acknowledge he needed them at first, and kept Diggle and Felicity at arms length. In season two they were becoming, as Felicity put it, a well oiled archery machine, though Oliver still had to be reminded from time to time he needed these other people. Losing his mother made him hold on to the others that much tighter. Then in season three things started to unravel again and he decided to push people away and do everything mostly by himself. The very thing he spent the first two seasons figuring out was not a workable plan. That's character regression, not growth, the kind of thing you usually do in the first season when you're still learning, not in the third when you should have most of this stuff figured out.

[catahoulamama]

I'm bitter that judging by this season, MG mistakenly seems to think being dark = making the characters miserable all. the. time.

Daredevil had a dark/gritty tone but I never felt like I needed to take antidepressants after watching an episode the way I did for a majority of Arrow's this year.

THIS. All day long and twice on Sundays.  Daredevil is a great example of doing it right. They're telling a dark tale, but you're left thinking "How many more episodes can I possibly watch in a row?" rather than "Why am I still watching this mess?"

 

MG really comes off like he's in this for himself and what *he* likes. I'll be interested to see how much changes with a "co-showrunner"  next year. Somebody must have thought he needed to be reined in and bless whoever made that decision.  I'll be happy if they designate some of the promotional interviews and such to someone other than him, too. Totally tired of the world according to Marc.

[Starfish35]

I'm not holding out any hopes based on the new co-show runner. I haven't been particularly impressed by the episodes Wendy Mericle has written (I believe This is Your Sword is the most recent one she co-wrote - someone correct me if I'm wrong on that). I think the new showrunner has more to do with MG being involved with LoT rather than it being a commentary on what he's done with the show this year.

[statsgirl]

Oliver's flat learning curve is what bothered me most this season, along with the massive fail that was Ra's and isolating Felicity onto Palmer Island

 

 

Maybe MG needs a co-showrunner, someone to keep him in check? I've decided (right.or wrong) that GB promoted Wendy Mercile to give MG the counter balance he had with AJK. At least until she proves me wrong and makes S4 even worse. LOL.

I think he's also going to be spending time running LoT too. That's the impression I got from one of his interviews talking about how much work he was putting into setting it up.

 

I wish I knew more about Wendy Mericle, or had faith in her.  (Seriously no impressed with her episodes.)  Show-running is incredibly important to a show, it's the make or break after it's been established.  MG is a good episode writer but he needs someone like GB or AK to co-steer with..

 

S3 Arrow wasn't dark or edgy (IMO) it was merely depressing with massive doses of plot driven stupidity and characters being forced OOC.

That's it exactly.  You can go dark as long as there is still humor to lighten it up. This season has been so dismal and dark, as evidence that Felicity, who is usually the brightness in an episode, spent more episodes crying than she did quipping.  And the quipping with Ray Palmer fell sadly flat.

 

Wendy Mericle episodes (from IMDB):

The Fallen (2015) ... (written by)
- Public Enemy (2015) ... (written by)
- Nanda Parbat (2015) ... (story by)
- Midnight City (2015) ... (written by)
- Draw Back Your Bow (2014) ... (written by)
- The Magician (2014) ... (written by)
- Seeing Red (2014) ... (written by)
- Time of Death (2014) ... (written by)
- Blind Spot (2014) ... (written by)
- Crucible (2013) ... (written by)
- Darkness on the Edge of Town (2013) ... (written by)
- Salvation (2013) ... (written by)
- Vertigo (2013) ... (written by)
- Damaged (2012) ... (written by)

 

She also wrote the Blood Rush ones.

 

I thought MG said that she wrote This Is Your Sword but she's not credited at IMDB.

[Belinea]

Since I don't know where to put this, I am just going to leave it here and hope for the best...

 

I really wish we could have seen some of the early stages of Oliver and Felicity being a couple. Because a lot can happen in 5 months and I cannot stand the thought that they'll break them up again 5 episodes in and will then start to go down the road of Green Arrow and Black Canary. Sometimes I think that this storyline seems to be dead but then I cannot get myself to truly believe that. Even after they made it seem as though Felicity is the girl for Oliver, I fear that they will say "Well, she was the one after the end of the Arrow" but the partner for Green Arrow is Black Canary and that is the story we always intended to tell. Because they really love to do what they want to do even if it really questionable sometimes.  

 

And sometimes I wonder why they don't listen to valid points from their actors. They don't have to listen to all of it. But to a certain extent their input might help. That way you wouldn't have them side-eye stories. For example the storyline of Oliver being broke. Poor SA has to explain the same thing over and over again. They could have made that clear in one line on the show. I think even SA is fed up with the fact that they didn't. (He might not be but his responses seemed to indicate that to me)

[HighHopes]

I'm bitter about this entire season because absolutely nothing happened it in and there was no build up or lead in into season four and they didn't deal with anything that happened in season two. You could go from episode 3x01 and skip everything and then watch 3x23 and you wouldn't feel like you missed anything. Oliver didn't grow at all because up until 3x23 he was still suicidal and wasn't including his team/letting them in on his decisions/plans. He didn't suffer any consequences from his actions besides an episode or two of grumping about Felicity being with Ray, but even then nothing came of it. 

 

He was forgiven for letting the people closest to him believe that he was going to kill him. He was forgiven for kidnapping his best friend's wife and leaving the daughter alone. He didn't grow and learn from season two and not telling his team about Slade. He did the exact same thing this season with his plans with Ra's. Oliver didn't decide he could be Oliver and The Arrow and be with Felicity. He didn't pick her above being either of those either. The Arrow and Oliver Queen were taken from him so he's deciding to be someone else, and that someone can be with Felicity. Right now Felicity is his third choice. If he could still be Oliver or the Arrow I don't think the season would have ended with happy!together!olicity. And that's not the point of the season, that wasn't what they were setting up. And all of that is going to come crashing down soon because he hasn't dealt with any of his issues. 

 

Felicity in the finale (and most of the season) was there to prop up Oliver and to give him speeches about how he can survive and fight and win. (true she did the same for Ray..). Felicity this season was a love interest and that's it. She didn't even learn that she was the new CEO because she was too busy being the love interest. The one thing outside of being in a relationship with Oliver and Ray that happened this season didn't even get to happen because she resigned her job at PT and became a love interest. 

 

That's not to say that women cannot pick a guy/love over a job. They can and it's fine and it's not unfeminist. But this is Felicity "I worked very hard to get to where I am and it wasn't so I could fetch you coffee" Smoak. The Felicity who knows she's the best at what she does. This VP job wasn't a job she wasn't in love with or wasn't in her field or was a job that she could pick up again. It was a job that she was good at and I assumed enjoyed, and something that was in her field and what she went to school for. She already had trouble finding a non-retail job after what happened in season two and her becoming an EA.. what's going to happen in season four? How is she going to explain (since she resigned from PT I'm going to assume she would look for a new job at a new company at some point) why she left such a high position job? Her resume yet again is terrible because of Oliver Queen.

Edited May 17, 2015 by HighHopes

[apinknightmare]

She already had trouble finding a non-retail job after what happened in season two and her becoming an EA.. what's going to happen in season four? How is she going to explain (since she resigned from PT I'm going to assume she would look for a new job at a new company at some point) why she left such a high position job? Her resume yet again is terrible because of Oliver Queen.

 

I don't think she had difficulty finding a job at all - she was working for Kord Industries and got fired for missing work after she got kidnapped (which apparently was the tip of the iceberg for her boss after missing work to do Arrow stuff, IIRC). I got the impression that she took the Tech Village job because she was able to do Arrow stuff there and thought that Oliver was going to get QC back soon - so it was just an interim thing. 

 

 

Felicity in the finale (and most of the season) was there to prop up Oliver and to give him speeches about how he can survive and fight and win.

 

To be fair - that isn't a love interest thing, it's a Felicity thing. She did it last season as well (and at times during the first season, though not as much).

 

 

He was forgiven for kidnapping his best friend's wife and leaving the daughter alone.

 

Uh, no he wasn't. Diggle still seems to be pretty pissed about that. Felicity forgave him for his bullshit because she seems to be a mission first type of gal. I really think she's able to put her personal feelings aside to get the job done - she did it last season, she did it this season. As long as they get the bad guy, I don't think she really cares that much as long as Oliver's plan doesn't involve something stupid like dying. 

[kismet]

I'm bitter that MG & the Arrow team do not know the difference between dark & depressing. There are many dark shows out there that are just dark, other posters have mentioned some examples. And some of those shows are masterpieces to watch. S1 was very dark in many ways with OQ/Arrow killing people, Helena, parents' betrayals just to name a few. This season was just depressing. Even happy moments like the Dyla wedding was brought down or marginalized. Every character seemed to be sad & hopeless. It was like the writers were trying to Debbie Downer themselves this season. And yes, I understand Sara's death was horrible and triggered this onslaught of sad emotions. But you would think the writers' would at least give us good rationale as to why it needed to happen at some point in the show. Death is sometimes senseless & with no rhythm or reason in real life, but that was not the case here. They don't have to explain everything to us, but it would certainly help when the scripts are poor and the plot holes galore.

 

Also, I am just about done with OQ being dumb & making poor choices being their only currency. That better change in s4 or I may have to check out. He doesn't have to always make great choices, but this season he made way to many dumb decisions that he had already learned from in previous seasons or the episode before. Too much of the season felt like deja vu & not the good kind. The writers are paid good money to come up with other ideas & character arcs. I hope they start to do that. If they can't find a better story in their own head or the nearest Batman comic, then they need to broaden their horizons. There are a million other sources of inspiration out there, please writers look beyond just the expected. Even the twists we could see coming a mile away. I'm all for twisty shows & trying to figure them out, but this season was not one of those shows.

Edited May 18, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

I guess for me I wasn't bitter about Felicity quitting because it was HER decision. Oliver didn't force her to go, she chose to go and she chose to quit. That's the difference between Felicity refusing to get Oliver coffee and Felicity quitting. Felicity didn't choose to get 'promoted' which is why she was pissed. She worked too hard to become an executive assistant. She didn't want a career in that. Whereas in 3x23, Felicity quit because she was being offered a real chance at happiness with Oliver. It's something she's been striving for the entire season. Yes she had the job, but IMO that didn't make her as happy as being with Oliver, crime fighting, and being with her friends do. 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Felicity prioritizes Oliver, her friends, crime fighting over her job. If she had to choose between her job and Oliver, I don't think there's any choice to make. Why? Because Felicity can get a job anytime anywhere, but there's only one Oliver. Sure she may not be VP when she looks for another job, but I don't think Felicity cares?

[NumberCruncher]

I thought this was somewhat interesting post in response to all the whining that has broken out about "Olicity taking over the show". This poster did a calculation of all of the S3 Olicity screentime as a percentage of the total S3 airtime and it came out to...wait for it...a whopping 2%.

http://outoftheclosetshipper.tumblr.com/post/119280620458/video-from-that1kimgirl-on-youtube-i-watched

Perspective is a funny thing.

[dtissagirl]

Whenever I see complaints of "X has taken over a TV show" all it means to me is that in fandom spaces, X is the most popular thing. Which also means it's the most hated thing because those two ALWAYS go hand in hand. And sure, Arrow fandom is probably 80% Oliver/Felicity, 20% everything else, if I'm being conservative. But that really doesn't mean the show takes anywhere as much time/space in it as fandom does.

[Guest]

I think we all forget that there's a general audience out there that doesn't care about the things we care about online. We all probably need a bit of perspective.

 

I got my mom into the show and during the last episode she cheered and laughed when Felicity flew the ATOM suit, thinking it was great fun and a good role reversal moment. She didn't even consider the intricacies of how she worked the damn thing. And then at the end of the episode she actually wished there had been more Oliver and Felicity because she felt they were apart too much this season. The issues we've had with Laurel, Malcolm and Ra's didn't even bother her. She prefers some things over others but she feels she's been mostly entertained this season. And my mom is the very definition of casual viewer. She'll watch an episode and then forget the show exists until it comes up as a reminder on the TV the following week. 

 

So, you know, it's easy to say that some things are universally hated but I really don't think that's a fair assessment when you look beyond all the whining online.

[NumberCruncher]

So, you know, it's easy to say that some things are universally hated but I really don't think that's a fair assessment when you look beyond all the whining online.

Yep. I thought about this too back when the ratings were staying steady through the ridiculous, plothole-ridden storylines this season. Clearly all the arguing on social media sites wasn't an accurate representation of the feelings of the broader audience then and it isn't now either.

[FurryFury]

Whenever I see complaints of "X has taken over a TV show" all it means to me is that in fandom spaces, X is the most popular thing. Which also means it's the most hated thing because those two ALWAYS go hand in hand. And sure, Arrow fandom is probably 80% Oliver/Felicity, 20% everything else, if I'm being conservative. But that really doesn't mean the show takes anywhere as much time/space in it as fandom does.

Well, it's not like Olicity fans aren't guilty of this "X has taken over the show" posts.

[wonderwall]

Well, it's not like Olicity fans aren't guilty of this "X has taken over the show" posts.

 

Definitely true. I haven't seen season 2 in a while so I don't really know, but even just now I was sort of guilty of saying Sara took over the show in season 2B. I don't know how true that is, I've never really taken the time to count the screentime but I guess that's how I felt. 

 

Other than that, a lot of people have also said that Laurel/BC/Masks have taken over the show as well...

 

I guess the difference is that most of the aspects of the show I've mentioned above have had way more screentime than Oliver/Felicity have had in season 3. Regardless, it's sort of understandable. O/F was a big part of Oliver's internal crisis even though they didn't have the screentime, so I can see where the hate comes from.

Edited May 18, 2015 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

OH! Who wants to bet that the season 4 poster will be a photoshopped version of the season 1 poster??? 

 

That's how little the CW/Berlanti care about the show now... I guess that makes sense considering the quality of this season.

[FurryFury]

Well, I haven't seen season 3, but you don't really have to film the couple together to have their romance be prominent. There are lots of other ways - for example, one of two purposes of Ray was to be an Olicity stall so as to show how much she loves Oliver eventually (see: Romantic False Lead trope, he hits all the notes). So I suppose people who complain about Olicity overtaking the show aren't simply counting their scenes but everything else they consider connected to this storyline.

[wonderwall]

Well, I haven't seen season 3, but you don't really have to film the couple together to have their romance be prominent. There are lots of other ways - for example, one of two purposes of Ray was to be an Olicity stall so as to show how much she loves Oliver eventually (see: Romantic False Lead trope, he hits all the notes). So I suppose people who complain about Olicity overtaking the show aren't simply counting their scenes but everything else they consider connected to this storyline.

Yup. That's what I meant by "Regardless, it's sort of understandable. O/F was a big part of Oliver's internal crisis even though they didn't have the screentime, so I can see where the hate comes from."

 

I just hope that in season 4 the romance will be put on the backburner. 

[FurryFury]

I think they'll just shift the romantic leads to other characters, like Thea and Laurel. Probably Laurel, she hasn't had a romance in forever. They'll probably bring early a 20s-30s recurring male character to be an occasional helper because right now, the heroes have more women than men.

[tv echo]

OH! Who wants to bet that the season 4 poster will be a photoshopped version of the season 1 poster??? 

 

That's how little the CW/Berlanti care about the show now... I guess that makes sense considering the quality of this season.

I don't know how they'll do the season 4 cast poster, considering Oliver has no Arrow suit anymore and, if he's getting a new costume, the EPs wouldn't unveil it ahead of time on the poster.  Yet they're not going to do a superhero show poster where the hero is wearing civilian clothes.  I assume that they'll just put Oliver in his old Arrow suit.  I'm just afraid that he'll be front and center with other costumed heroes on the poster (BC, Atom or Speedy), while the non-costumed heroes are relegated to the background (Diggle, Felicity).

Edited May 19, 2015 by tv echo

[doesntworkonwood]

I don't know how they'll do the season 4 cast poster, considering Oliver has no Arrow suit anymore and, if he's getting a new costume, the EPs wouldn't unveil it ahead of time on the poster.  Yet they're not going to do a superhero show poster where the hero is wearing civilian clothes.  I assume that they'll just put Oliver in his old Arrow suit.  I'm just afraid that he'll be front and center with other costumed heroes on the poster (BC, Atom or Speedy), while the non-costumed heroes are relegated to the background (Diggle, Felicity).

I wouldn't be too sure about that. They might be forced to, especially if they film (which starts in July I think, or maybe August) on location, someone might get a picture, before they release any cast poster. Or they might pre-emptively release pictures because they know there's no way they could keep it a secret, which is what's done with new Doctors in Doctor Who. 

 

Plus, it will get them a lot of buzz if they release a cast picture with Oliver in a new costume. 

 

I think we'll get a new photoshoot for Oliver, and reused photoshoots for the rest of the cast/characters. 

[KirkB]

Maybe they'll do a silhouette image of Oliver in the suit, so you get the shape without any detail, and then regular shots of everyone else? 

[tarotx]

They should have Oliver Queen wear some tight jeans and a tight green tee shirt holding his bow.

[kismet]

I sorta would like them to try to do something different. Something a little more artistic. Maybe shadows or silhouettes. No faces, no masks, no costumes. I could see them putting out something without the cast on it.

 

SA on the poster alone, would be a good selling point. It does bring it back to s1. He was shirtless in that one, not bad option. But it would overlook the team & other cast, so that is not as good of an option.

[Betweenthisandthat]

There's not a lot of love here for Olicity, but the roundtable does a good job discussing why that didn't work and all the other stuff that didn't work http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/05/arrow-round-table-happily-ever-after/

 

As one of the reviewers said, there were bad arcs and then arcs that should have been fun if the origins of them hadn't been so bad.  Plus, as people have said here, Sara's death was the wrong way to start the season and tarnished everything else that happened after it.

 

I'm bitter but I agree that most people off line don't nitpick like this so the show might continue doing what it did this season because there are enough casual viewers who are okay with the direction of the show.  I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't give me much hope as a nitpicker.

[MostlyC]

It looks like we are veering on and off topic.   In Arrow parlance, let's work on our aim.

 

Please be mindful when you post.