Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[dtissagirl]

I'm butter I haven't re-watched an episode since 309. And I don't even want to go back and re-watch the episodes I love, because then I remember the crapfest of late, and the butterness sets.

[wonderwall]

The only episodes I've rewatched were episode 1 (but shut it off right before the end), 5, 8, 9, and 16. Whereas season 2 I rewatched 1-12, 20-23. 5 compared to 16... YIKES

[Password]

I've only rewatched ep 1, 5 and the Flarrow crossovers. Thoroughly enjoyed ep 16 and parts of The Climb but nothing else. YouTube is useful for some episodes though.

I find I don't care to rewatch much of anything nowadays.

[MostlyC]

After getting Cease and Desist letters from Land O Lakes and Fabio from “I Can’t Believe It’s Not Butter,” we are forced to change from Butter Back To Bitter.

I’d like to thank The awesome Moderator Stacey for helping me change the thread title, Shana for her typo, 10Eleven1210 for picking up on it, Lis and SilverStormm for their stellar moderating,  and to the lovely and feisty posters who encouraged and laughed at the change.

 

Back to the Butterness....er....Bitterness thread  (Okay lawyers, I listen.  Mostly.  See?).

[catrox14]

I really can't believe it's not butter :(. 

[kismet]

I just got that sinking feeling you realize when you've reached that point in your popcorn bowl where there is no longer any more buttery infused morsels of goodness just some plain old popcorn. So long buttery goodness... it was tasty while it lasted :'(

[catrox14]

I am now irrationally annoyed that my bitter became buttery and smooth and now it's been ripped away only to be left with an even worse bitter taste.   :(.   Oh bother

[Chaser]

Watching the Canadian promo…Ugh. 

 

It felt very much like Masks are the A-Team and everyone else can sit down. I miss promos where the Arrow was running around, Felicity was directing him from the Cave and Diggle was back up and military smarts. Now its all Oliver/Roy/Laurel. 

[wonderwall]

You'd think an all mask team up would interest people but people seem to be indifferent about it and don't care. I think that says a lot because people should've been more hyped about the Arrow/Red Arrow/Black Canary team... It just seems like only the comic book enthusiasts (some) are interested... And they're just so in the minority. Why would the writers want this? Why would they focus on something not interesting? Arrow focusing on masked vigilantes is just boring when it should be anything but. I just think it's because the audience isn't enthused by the characters underneath the masks. Unfortunately the writers/EPs treat masks like they're a shiny new object. Ugh

[Chaser]

You'd think an all mask team up would interest people but people seem to be indifferent about it and don't care. I think that says a lot because people should've been more hyped about the Arrow/Red Arrow/Black Canary team... It just seems like only the comic book enthusiasts (some) are interested... And they're just so in the minority. Why would the writers want this? Why would they focus on something not interesting? Arrow focusing on masked vigilantes is just boring when it should be anything but. I just think it's because the audience isn't enthused by the characters underneath the masks. Unfortunately the writers/EPs treat masks like they're a shiny new object. Ugh

When everyone is super, no one is.

 

 Arrow thru Diggle and Felicity's eyes was special. Giving a mask to everyone diminished the meaning. Now its a costume party. 

[Guest]

They've been building to this all season though - this heightened importance on masks and costumes - and nothing else matters, all the other characters are secondary. And as I've said repeatedly, when everyone has a mask, it makes them less special. They might as well just hand them out at the entrance to Starling City.

 

Also I don't know where else a GA/BC/Arsenal team up can go. Is it just the idea of them running around together? How…interesting. 

[Chaser]

I don't find a GA/Arsenal/BC Team Up that interesting personally. What makes Avengers or Justice League interesting to me is there is a variety of humans/non-humans/powers/non-powers/skills. These three are in the same action role - just varying degrees of skill. They are basically a swat team. 

[statsgirl]

You'd think an all mask team up would interest people but people seem to be indifferent about it and don't care.

But do the EPs know that?  I don't think they do.

 

The show is really butting up against the Comics! this season.  The people who come from the comics want their comics canon and want Laurel to be Oliver's partner.  The people who don't come from the comics (which according to the Spoiler TV poll is 80% of viewers) want the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity team.  (I know I really resent it when the show tries to tell me that LL/Black Canary is Oliver's partner, not Felicity.)

 

It wasn't so bad in s1 and s2 when the show was clearly going away from comics canon but in s3, they're steam-rolling right towards it and the comics people are expecting great things.  One group of people is going to be very upset at the end of this.

 

I think the only way to save it is to write the story non-comics but very well written  so that those who want comics canon will still watch.  I know that having seen O/D/F, I will never care about the team of Arrow/Black Canary/Roy/Speedy, no matter how good the story is..

[Menrva]

They've been building to this all season though - this heightened importance on masks and costumes - and nothing else matters, all the other characters are secondary. And as I've said repeatedly, when everyone has a mask, it makes them less special. They might as well just hand them out at the entrance to Starling City.

 

Also I don't know where else a GA/BC/Arsenal team up can go. Is it just the idea of them running around together? How…interesting. 

Well, it's like what the villain in "The Incredibles" said: "When everyone's super, then no one will be."

Oliver's and Laurel's interactions have been so unpleasant this season, I can't see them teaming up in a realistic way. Laurel thinks Oliver is a hypocrite and won't listen to him; Oliver is right not to trust Laurel because she just does whatever she damn well pleases and poor Roy is just stuck in the middle thinking "I hate it when Mom and Dad are fighting". How would this work if no one has the other's back? That's why superhero teams are fun; because no matter what their differences are, when it matters, they are there for each other.

[tennisgurl]

The writers really lost track of what their audience wants to see, and what works about the show what what does not. Just look at the Roy thing. Maybe we were supposed to be impressed by the effects, or be into the whole Ray and Oliver dick measuring contest, but the fans, for the most part, hate Ray, and this stupid love triangle, and were busy freaking out about Roy being possibly dead. And its all because they just forgot about Roy? I feel like that whole thing is just this seasons issues in a nutshell. 

[BkWurm1]

And its all because they just forgot about Roy? I feel like that whole thing is just this seasons issues in a nutshell.

 

What's important to the showrunners and writers doesn't seem to be the same thing that is important to at least this viewer. 

 

I can accept wild crazy over the top and tragic and even a Ray but you have to make the writing first and foremost keep the characters true to themselves, because it's the characters that make me care and worry and tune in, not stunts or special affects or wild plot twists.  Those might breed some temporary attention but it's not a long term solution and 23 episodes is plenty of time for the flash in the pan to get old.  They refused to put the proper effort and foundation into the show this season and that leaves the strings showing badly.  

[chaos is welcome]

Oh man the mod corrections are slaying me. Thank you wonderful mods for making this so fun! Hard to be butter while loling

[tv echo]

All this emphasis on masked heroes on Arrow... ugh! 

 

I blame it on the success of The Flash and, to some extent, on the success of The Avengers.  It just seems like now there's this race in Hollywood to see who can get rights to every DC or Marvel comic book superhero and villain.  With the success of The Flash, the Arrow EPs were able to expand their TV mini-verse and now seem to be trying to gobble up as many DC comic characters as possible.  Maybe DC has said that you lose it, if you don't use it.  So hence the emphasis on showing the costumed characters on screen as much as possible.

[writersblock51]

I'm bitter as hell that Laurel didn't tell Quentin how it was her decision, from the time Team Arrow came upon her and Sara's body in the lair, to not tell Quentin the truth. They have been uncomfortably going by her decision - because, somehow, his heart couldn't take it.

 

Yet he had no signs of heart issues tonight, after being roughed up and everything.

 

So ALL OF THIS is on Laurel. All of it, including the deaths and injuries that have happened and may still happen.

 

Quentin should resign since he did not arrest Laurel and Roy.

 

This season has been built on the horrific decision that Laurel made in the first episode of the season.  Since then, she's become a heroic vigilante (which rather contrasts with her paying day job) while the city and her friends suffer.  KC said at Paleyfest that this seasons was lighter for LL. Clearly, that's how she sees it.  I find that extremely disturbing. 

 

I can tolerate Stalker Ray since i know he's leaving. But Laurel? I want her off the show.  And dead-dead. Not resurrection of any sort for her.

 

Furthermore, the opening for the show now has Ray and Laurel but no longer has Diggle and Felicity.

 

That offends me on every level.

Edited April 2, 2015 by writersblock51

[Chaser]

The introduction pissed me off more then I originally thought it did. Removing Diggle and Felicity from the intro, replacing them with newbies who haven't earned anything. It feels like a massive FU. These are a the two characters who deserve it the least. Wasn't it last season Laurel was hunting down the Arrow? Wasn't it a few episodes ago he told her she wasn't a hero but an addict looking for a high? And Ray? Ray?!

 

It's like the last two seasons mean nothing.

 

Next episode is going to paint Ray a hero. Where is Felicity's episode to tie up her 'theme'? It's a footnote in Ray's story. And for that matter, why was Diggle's episode about Deadshot? I'm saying this as someone who enjoys Deadshot, but Diggle's episode was split on him and Ray. 

[Shanna]

They took feleciity and Diggle out of the credits? Am I hearing that right?

I caught a couple minutes and thought I might actually go back and watch (it's been 5 or 6 episodes since I've watched) but now I'm not sure. It might be best to make a clean break.

[calliope1975]

They took feleciity and Diggle out of the credits? Am I hearing that right?

 

They're not out of the credits. They are out of the "My name is Oliver Queen..." intro and have been replaced by Ray and Laurel. I can't remember if Roy was there, but it made me very butter. Melted, hot butter.

[Lady Calypso]

They're not out of the credits. They are out of the "My name is Oliver Queen..." intro and have been replaced by Ray and Laurel. I can't remember if Roy was there, but it made me very butter. Melted, hot butter.

 

Having just watched the episode, we do get a quick clip...of Roy and Oliver jumping out of a window....in a long shot, so you can't really tell. So....plus for Roy for being in the credits (but not really)? Also, why can't Thea be in those credits as well? Because she's not a vigilante with a mask?

[tennisgurl]

Why oh WHY is Ray in the credits now? He doesn't even go here!

 

He didn't even join Oliver`s quest! He just awkwardly showed up one day, and starting shooting electricity bolts at innocent side kicks! 

[Sakura12]

Don't they change the opening credits every couple of episodes? I remember Sara being in couple shots last season, then she wasn't in others. They seem to change them with depending on who the episode is focusing on. 

[Starfish35]

I thought they'd been changing them every episode this season. Seems like they're always a little bit different each week.

[Chaser]

I think the credits do change, but it was just more jarring to see SuperSuit there.

 

Oh the ratings. One of the things I've noticed about the show is its not always consistent on looking back at what worked and building on it organically. I really hope they do that going into S4. They need to really pay attention to what the critcs and fans are saying.

 

My overall impression from what fans and critics are saying:

 

SA is your bread and butter. Keep the focus on him.

Stop using the show as a platform for spinoffs

Instant heros do not work on Arrow

Olicity together is not a problem, spliting them up is

Team Arrow is the core of the show, give them their moments

Too many moving parts, tighten it up

Plot holes galore

[kismet]

Stephen Amell is the bread & butter of this show!!! Keep focus on him and it will help with the other "butterness" this show throws at us in spades. The whole adding of the ATOM to the opening credits was just too premature. ATOM never said he joined the crusade, he went to the mayor's office to undue his mistake in judgment. The show really needs to keep track of when people actually join OQ's mission.

[popgoesculture]

I'm bitter about the whole trajectory of this season, and even the glimpse of what lays ahead in the last five episodes didn't cheer me up. If it's possible, it made me even more angry. Because if any of the trailer actually happens in a straightforwardish manner (which is a BIG if), it's not an earned payoff. I don't care about any of this. I don't care about Ray, or the League, and Laurel is basically comic relief now, which is odd and so frustrating. I miss Sara and her epic action stunts. Felicity, my favorite character, has had virtually nothing to do this season except prop up characters or be dismissed repeatedly by Oliver and even Digg -- and the friendship between Digg and Felicity is basically nonexistent. She feels like she's in another show completely 99 percent of the time. And Oliver just makes me want to yell all the time.

 

There were so many possible ways to fix this season, to reverse course, etc. What makes me most bitter about it all is that before, Arrow was a show that kind of delighted in the unexpected. Season 1? Totally unexpected with Moira being the sketchy character (and not Walter); Tommy's death; Diggle and Felicity's introduction. All of that was fun and going against the comics. It's not until the second half of season 2 where there seemed to be a turn towards "oh wait, we have to follow this source material much more closely," and that's where Arrow started to fall apart for me. 

[Duke Silver]

Terrible show is terrible.

 

After making the mistake of watching E17 live last week, I finally watched E18 earlier tonight.  There were a couple things I liked in E18, but the overall terribleness of the show drowns out any goodwill that I can get myself to muster.  Personally, I'm not hopeful of redemption in Season 4, but I'll likely talk myself into watching the season premier just to see if MG, et al can drive the final stake through the heart of this show.  I have given up on Season 3 as any crumbs they choose to throw our way likely will be insufficient to wipe my memory.  They can't un-ring the bell that is Season 3.

[wonderwall]

I hope you guys know that I was kidding (probably unconsciously sparked by that "Palmer Island" reviewer comment)...  

 

Seriously, I don't think anything Quentin, Laurel or Thea went through is comparable to what Oliver and Sara experienced.

 

Basically if I were to rate the pain each of those characters went through it would be:

Oliver > Sara > Thea > Laurel > Quentin

 

But yeah, Palmer Island is Felicity's island lmao, she's suffered so much from it :'(

[AyChihuahua]

We've ALL suffered because of Palmer Island.

[wonderwall]

We've ALL suffered because of Palmer Island.

Felicity suffered from it the most. The woman had to sleep with him! eugh

[kieyra]

This show was so good in season 2. Now I just groan and hit the 30-second skip button.

[icandigit]

Terrible show is terrible.

 

After making the mistake of watching E17 live last week, I finally watched E18 earlier tonight.  There were a couple things I liked in E18, but the overall terribleness of the show drowns out any goodwill that I can get myself to muster.  Personally, I'm not hopeful of redemption in Season 4, but I'll likely talk myself into watching the season premier just to see if MG, et al can drive the final stake through the heart of this show.  I have given up on Season 3 as any crumbs they choose to throw our way likely will be insufficient to wipe my memory.  They can't un-ring the bell that is Season 3.

I like that you used the term goodwill. That's the problem for me. The show has ruined any goodwill I had towards it. I used to be invested in the show. Like really, I bought episodes after they aired.Now my goodwill is gone. The past couple of episodes have had some scenes that I liked but not enough to reinvest. Have you ever known someone to make such a poor decision, that it keeps you from trusting them again? I didn't realize how deeply killing the canary affected me with this show. It's like I don't want to follow anything you're doing, because you made a stupid decision. I don't trust your judgment. They seem to want all this comic book stuff and mask. They want GA/BC. They had a great BC and they threw her in the trash.

 

They took a multifaceted character and an actor who total pwoned the superhero thing. She pulled off this great camaraderie vibe with the arrow both in and out of the mask. And they threw her in the trash. And now they are pushing the half-arsed heroes. It's poor judgment and an inability to see value.

[FurryFury]

Basically if I were to rate the pain each of those characters went through it would be:

Oliver > Sara > Thea > Laurel > Quentin

 

We don't know everything about Sara's experiences on the Amazo and in the League. I figure it's quite possible her pain can give Oliver's a run for its money. I don't want to think she was raped and abused (because it just horrifies me too much), but this possibility can't be discounted, and it is something we know Oliver hasn't gone through.

[Sakura12]

I believe CL was playing Sara as if she had been raped and/or abused by men. I think the show kind of implied it with her "No woman should ever suffer at the hands of men"  and her going after rapists when she returned home. I just think they didn't want to outright say it which is understandable. 

[KirkB]

Oh I definitely think they hinted at it during her time on the Amazo but yeah, they didn't want to come out and say it.

[tennisgurl]

I figured that was somewhere in her back story, but they thought it would be a little too intense for this show.

 

Stuff we wont ever know now...

unless we see it in the spin-off

 

Honestly, I just hope someone working on this show takes some time to course correct. We can just write this year off as "The Gas Leak Year".

Edited April 5, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Chaser]

Arrow EPS: This season has been a huge success. They have turned the audience around on Laurel. People adore Black Canary. And ATOM? Dude gets a spin-off, he is so popular. And of course, the new and improved Team Arrow! Yeah!

 

Arrow Con Audience: No questions about LL/BC, No questions about RP/ATOM. But they would like to know if we get any original Team Arrow interaction, Olicity and a costume for Diggle. 

[AyChihuahua]

Are they delusional or lying?  It matters, bc if the former, S4 will definitely suck, too.  If the latter, at least there's a shot for improvement.

[TanyaKay]

I get the desire to come up with new things but why fix something which ain't broken.

Team Arrow was lovely and did not need new members this season. Arrow verse was rich enough without all the additional characters that have not added much to the narrative of the core group and have wasted precious screen time in telling their stories.

I am surprized these people still have jobs and are entrusted to create 3 more Tv shows when writing for the first one has been all over the place this season.

[tennisgurl]

I just...I don't get it. It defies all logic. Do the writers and show runners want their fans to hate them? Why do they insist on taking all the goodwill anyone had for their show, and throwing it away? Just....why?!?!?

[BkWurm1]

Please don't make Felicity the floater between the shows.  Please,please, please, please, please, please, please, please,please, please. I just can't.  I just can't.  It would be like the death knell of all death knells and yet, I can absolutely see the show runners high fiving each other about what a brilliant idea! 

 

Please don't make Felicity the floater.  Hell, let's do this right.   Please don't make ANYONE a fucking floater.  It's a damn stupid idea that the network is just gong to screw up when they mess with the continuity like they are sure to do when there are three shows to juggle.   But above all

 

 

Pleeeeeeeeease don't make Felicity the floater.  :(

Edited April 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[FurryFury]

Please don't make ANYONE a fucking floater.

 

I don't think that making, say, Lyla or Waller or anybody else in this vein a "floater" (which is a word I somehow associate with bodies floating in the water AND a Fallout 2 monster...) is such a bad idea. It would make sense and enhance the feeling of a shared universe, if done right.

Edited April 6, 2015 by FurryFury

[BkWurm1]

if done right.

 

My stickling point for Lyla. You may have guessed I'm really not feeling any confidence in them.  

[tv echo]

For a show that started out purporting to be grounded in realism, it sure plays fast and loose with legal issues, financial issues, and medical issues.  I get that we have to suspend disbelief to a certain extent (mirakuru, superpowers, etc.) but sometimes I get tired of just how much we're supposed to hand-wave away.

[wonderwall]

Did anyone sort of notice that the whole Oliver teaming up with Malcolm arc was dropped? Like what was the point in teaming up with Malcolm again?

[Chaser]

Did anyone sort of notice that the whole Oliver teaming up with Malcolm arc was dropped? Like what was the point in teaming up with Malcolm again?

This whole season is like 'SQUIRREL!'.

 

I honestly think they had a basic outline planned out and then got so distracted along the way they missed the point and either had to loop around to grab it or just said "Whatever! Have a Mask!"

[AyChihuahua]

Well, they practiced swordfighting like once, right?  One practice sesh is totally reason to team up with the mass murderer who killed your best friend, killed your father, kidnapped and terrorized your stepfather, terrorized and blackmailed your mother, and drugged your sister into killing your ex-girlfriend, right?  Bygones!