Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[moviewhore]

I'm bitter that Quentn stlll doesn't know his daughter is dead.  I am so angry over that I could scream.   Christ, the mailman probably knows by now. 

 

I'm also bitter about Thea getting mindraped by her own father making her kill Sara.  That is such bullshit just to make more manpain for Ollie.'

[wonderwall]

I'm also bitter about Thea getting mindraped by her own father making her kill Sara.  That is such bullshit just to make more manpain for Ollie.'

 

Thea killing Sara will have a more emotional ramifications on Thea, not Oliver. The midseason finale showed that this didn't contribute to Oliver's manpain, in fact, it contributed to taking the extra step to keep his sister safe no matter how naive she is and how much she screws up. 

 

And I'd hardly call Malcolm her father. I think once Thea finds out about what he did to her, she'd throw him off a building. 

 

At least that's how I saw it :)

[Soulfire]

 

This GIF set on Tumblr made me realize something I hadn't really considered before.

 

Truth time: Oliver's death scene didn't really crush me. Maybe I'm just too used to comics where no character ever really stays dead and is resurrected for what often later turns out questionable reasons, but, point is, I wasn't as upset by Oliver's "death" as I perhaps should have been.

 

BUT THIS UPSETS ME.

 

Because I refuse to believe the Team Arrow we've come to love is gone, replaced by some Botched Canary and Arsenal lead bullshit come season 3B. If it's only like that for a couple of episodes I'll be able to handle it (as I fast forward through a lot of those episodes) but if there's indication the Team Arrow we've come to know and love is gone? Then count me OUT.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Soulfire

[Happy Harpy]

I just caught up with the show and watched the episodes that interest me this season: The One with Felicity's past, The One with the crossover + The Flash One with the crossover -thanks to TPTB for making season 3 so unappealing to me that so little was necessary. I also caught up with what happened in the other ones/spoilers/reviews. And I'm beyond bitter. I'm positively furious.

 

How can I find a crossover episode, and on the sister show no less, the best episode of Arrow this season by a landslide? (I remember painfully the general suckiness of non-integrated, stunt-casting level crossovers of the 90's, like the The Pretender/Profiler ones).

How come TIIC are still able to write some thrilling, entertaining, fun, engaging episodes, full of Team Arrow goodness and -for the crossover at least- rather good writing, in order to showcase it to casual/non-viewers, while serving to their regular viewers what constitutes for me a steaming piece of gloomy, contrived, depressing shyte? "Thanks for your liking our show/watching our show on a regular basis, oh, here, let us give you the finger!"...is that what it means?

 

Crossovers are a window, an advertisement, and considering what they advertise, I conclude that the writers know exactly what works for the show and what works for (most of, or not, YMMV) the audience, which oh, seemingly happens to be the same damn thing.

Usually, even when I don't like a storyline, I feel sorry for TPTB who tried to entertain and fail: It must be disheartening to have your good intentions met with lack of enthusiasm and criticism.

But after the crossover, I can't see good intentions at the writers' level (not talking about the cast and crew here!). Now, I've seen that they're still able to do great, they're still able to deliver, and they deliberately don't. Hence, I'm furious.

 

Now, concretely, I feel that everything I loved about the show -characters and storylines- is being phased out and replaced by my most hated tropes and TV pet peeves and characters I don't care about, at best. At random:

 

-They took a fresh, original, romantic relationship that was born spontaneously, organically, and had a natural progression; stalled it artificially and replaced it by the whole Will they-Won't they directory straight from TV Tropes ("It's not you, it's me", "It's not you, it's my enemies", "Temporary Love Interest" etc.).

 

-When you bring a character as a Love Interest -pet peeve number one of yours truly- in order to achieve said stalling, you at least try to make him his own character. Especially when it's the Fan Preferred Couple (does this need a disclaimer?) you stall, since the fandom of said couple will fire at will at the first misstep. Especially if you have other plans for the character, say, a longer stay or a spinoff.

What I saw of Ray = Oliver-lite for the billionaire vigilante (wannabe) who does the salmon ladder and asks for Felicity's help in his endeavor + Barry-lite for the nerdy-brainy thingy + Tom Cruise jumping on a couch. All that bathing in a conception of "romanticism" which shouldn't surprise me, coming from people who thought that sister swapping was a good idea. In summary, I couldn't care less about Cray-cRay except that I want him gone since he's hogging airtime that could go to characters I like and am interested in.

 

-I never wanted Oliver to be poor and to lose QC, and it's even worse considering that the consequences aren't really dealt with re: his resources for fighting crime, which is sure ain't coming cheap. Poor-but-billionaire-poor is, writing-wise, simply ridiculous imo. Personally, I think  the writers went with it in order to justify Ray's presence on the show and omnipresence in Felicity's life, and in Oliver's life.

 

-I loved Roy and Thea. “Oops, the page you requested is no longer here”.

 

- And I love Roy, I think I'm one of the few who liked him from the start or almost. I don't mind his fighting skills progression because for once the Mirakuru was imo well used and actually got me used to seeing him included in the Oliver/Diggle/Sara group in that respect. But Oliver's partner on the field can ever be anyone but Diggle in this show's universe in my book, mostly because Diggle and Oliver are equals whereas Oliver is Roy's mentor. I won't change my Oliver/Diggle for Batman/Robin 2.0; yet I felt that the show is leaning this way.

 

-I expected much from Thea's storyline, her rise as her own empowered self, for good or evil. She got a condo with Daddy's blood money, another love interest/romantic plot, and a brainwash instead. Oh joy and 20 years or so of Girl's Power.

 

-I never wanted a Black Canary. I liked Sara and she made me accept her Black Canary as an ally gravitating around Team Arrow (otherwise, even she didn't work for me). Sara was killed. Horribly.  In order to get a character I can't stand in her jacket and front and center. Enough said.

 

-I loved Sara and Nyssa. From the moment Sara said she chose to be with her, and didn't feel she had to. Another ship bites the dust.

 

-I used to love the island flashbacks (except for the post-Shado fridging part). What I saw of Hong Kong bored me.

 

-Probably very unpopular, but imo Malcolm isn't half interesting as he was or could be without Moira. He just doesn't have a worthy adversary in the devious department. I believe a Moira vs Malcolm fight around Thea would have been as epic as the Flash/the Arrow duel. And they went as far as resurrecting a character without a satisfying explanation (imo) to use him very little.

 

-Quentin is sidelined and lied to and I hate it, and where the hell is Walter? 3-A seemed to set a bunch of superheroes wannabes on their "journeys" but I'd rather watch characters like Quentin the cop finding his way between the law and the vigilante, Walter the quiet strength and again, Moira in all her grey-ness instead.

 

But the biggest cause of my bitterness is of course Team Arrow, or its lack thereof, and what has been done to Oliver (manpain dies hard with a vengeance) and Felicity and Diggle (often written OOC to fit the plot/other characters' journey, imho and YMMV). I could speak at nauseum about it, but in summary:

   

Because I refuse to believe the Team Arrow we've come to love is gone, replaced by some Botched Canary and Arsenal lead bullshit come season 3B. If it's only like that for a couple of episodes I'll be able to handle it (as I fast forward through a lot of those episodes) but if there's indication the Team Arrow we've come to know and love is gone? Then count me OUT.

I believe that's exactly what the writers have been doing.

I signed for a show about Oliver Queen, I stayed for a show about Oliver Queen with John Diggle and Felicity Smoak as his teammates (and not "sidekicks"). I signed for Arrow, an original TV show loosely inspired from a comic, with its own dynamic and universe, not for a carbon copy of Green Arrow, the comic. I'm not interested in anything else, which is why I'm out (and would be even if work gave me a longer break) until my belief is proven wrong and the show I used to enjoy so much is back.

 

Edit: Sorry for the length of this post, as I said I just finally caught up with weeks of show and it piled up.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[KirkB]

-I never wanted a Black Canary. I liked Sara and she made me accept her Black Canary as an ally gravitating around Team Arrow (otherwise, even she didn't work for me). Sara was killed. Horribly.  In order to get a character I can't stand in her jacket and front and center. Enough said.

I signed for a show about Oliver Queen, I stayed for a show about Oliver Queen with John Diggle and Felicity Smoak as his teammates (and not "sidekicks"). I signed for Arrow, an original TV show loosely inspired from a comic, with its own dynamic and universe, not for a carbon copy of Green Arrow, the comic.

 

 

I agree with all of this. It was Caity and her performance which drew me to the Canary, I never wanted or needed the character on the show because I was watching for Oliver and his team. Once she had grown on me I liked she existed in the world but wasn't constantly a part of the show, until of course she was and started to take scenes away from the main team, then I liked it less. As for the team, I didn't mind Roy being brought in to make it a group of four rather than three, but Oliver, Felicity and Diggle were (and always should be) the core. If I had an issue it would probably be that while Arrow is walking the line between telling their own stories and copying stuff from the comics, as most adaptions do, weirdly the comics they are copying from are less Green Arrow and more Batman.

Edited December 19, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

-Probably very unpopular, but imo Malcolm isn't half interesting as he was or could be without Moira. He just doesn't have a worthy adversary in the devious department. I believe a Moira vs Malcolm fight around Thea would have been as epic as the Flash/the Arrow duel. And they went as far as resurrecting a character without a satisfying explanation (imo) to use him very little.

I agree with every single thing you wrote, but I want to emphasize this especially because it's so true.  I like Captain Jack Harkness but Malcolm Merlyn is interesting to me only in so far as he's balanced by another character equally as strong and as good at deception.  I wasn't interested in seeing Oliver fight him physically, I was interested in seeing Moira fight  him strategically.  Then they killed her for more of Oliver's manpain, which left Malcolm just there, an outlier in the equation of the show.

 

That's why I was hoping that Thea would get on her Moira, play Malcolm for a while and then turn the tables on him.  The brain-washing plant?  The complete opposite of what I was looking for from their interactions.

[Carrie Ann]

Now, concretely, I feel that everything I loved about the show -characters and storylines- is being phased out and replaced by my most hated tropes and TV pet peeves and characters I don't care about, at best. At random:

 

-They took a fresh, original, romantic relationship that was born spontaneously, organically, and had a natural progression; stalled it artificially and replaced it by the whole Will they-Won't they directory straight from TV Tropes ("It's not you, it's me", "It's not you, it's my enemies", "Temporary Love Interest" etc.).

[...]

-I expected much from Thea's storyline, her rise as her own empowered self, for good or evil. She got a condo with Daddy's blood money, another love interest/romantic plot, and a brainwash instead. Oh joy and 20 years or so of Girl's Power.

[...]

-Probably very unpopular, but imo Malcolm isn't half interesting as he was or could be without Moira. He just doesn't have a worthy adversary in the devious department. I believe a Moira vs Malcolm fight around Thea would have been as epic as the Flash/the Arrow duel. And they went as far as resurrecting a character without a satisfying explanation (imo) to use him very little.

 

-Quentin is sidelined and lied to and I hate it, and where the hell is Walter? 3-A seemed to set a bunch of superheroes wannabes on their "journeys" but I'd rather watch characters like Quentin the cop finding his way between the law and the vigilante, Walter the quiet strength and again, Moira in all her grey-ness instead.

[...]

But the biggest cause of my bitterness is of course Team Arrow, or its lack thereof, and what has been done to Oliver (manpain dies hard with a vengeance) and Felicity and Diggle (often written OOC to fit the plot/other characters' journey, imho and YMMV).

 

Your whole post was so satisfying; I feel like I need a cigarette. Pulling out a few key points, your first and last can never be stated enough. I've gone into them enough here in the past two months that I don't want to restate all the ways and reasons I agree, but yeah. This has been really disappointing.

 

So to some of your other points: first, Thea. The fact that she was drugged and her agency removed, and forced to kill her friend is horrible on its face. Obviously, we all know that. But the thing that is sticking in my craw is the way she told Oliver, "Don't make me choose between my brother and my father." He shouldn't have to. There should be no choice to make. Leaving aside the ways they have both lied to her, and the fact that she's not aware of the extent of Malcolm's abuse of her--Oliver is the brother she grew up with. The person who has loved her since her birth. The person who did not willfully kill 500 innocent people (including her real father), while trying to kill many more. If she had said, "Oliver, if you ask me to choose, I will choose you every time, but I wish you wouldn't ask." That would be preferable. Still gross, and she is still on the hook for some of her actions because she is knowingly building a relationship with Satan himself. But it's just...equating her relationships with Oliver and Malcolm is making me like her less, and that's a bummer.

 

Next, Malcolm himself. I agree with you 100% that this story would be infinitely more interesting if Moira were here to do battle with Malcolm. The show itself was a richer, deeper, more complex place with Moira around. Killing her off was short-sighted and stupid. But YES, Walter would have made an excellent, interesting stand-in. He was effectively Thea's father figure for five years, and they had a sweet, believable relationship. Giving her an alternative to Malcolm's type of parenting would help her see that she doesn't need him. And in a season where we're getting a lot of parent-child and mentor-mentee relationships, it would have been wonderful to see Walter step in to mentor Oliver, to turn him into the once and future CEO of Queen Consolidated. And Quentin, well, he can't really do anything as long as he's being treated like an invalid, so add him to the list of characters sacrificed at the altar of the One True BC.

[DrSpaceman10]

I think that of all the characters that the show has killed, Moira's death was the most pointless. I really wish they had kept her alive, I liked her more than Malcolm. 

[Password]

I think that of all the characters that the show has killed, Moira's death was the most pointless. I really wish they had kept her alive, I liked her more than Malcolm.

Senseless death.

[Sakura12]

I haven't even watched the Arrow episode of the crossover. That's how much I don't want to watch what a trainwreck my favorite show has become. Even with the added bonus of the show that's become their replacement. I'm loving the Flash, it's light, fun and the characters all talk to each other and hang out with each other. The characters have their own storylines but they are not completely separate from the main plot. Iris while in the dark with the secret, still is involved with other characters besides just Barry, plus she's actually nice to people.

 

That's where Arrow failed. Laurel was kept separate from everyone besides Oliver, therefore making her unimportant to the main plot and the rest of the characters. She was a nobody and now we're supposed to buy her as a somebody when she's still mostly separate from the main plot and treats the other characters like they are her servants. 

[Happy Harpy]

 

That's why I was hoping that Thea would get on her Moira, play Malcolm for a while and then turn the tables on him.

My favorite possibility was Thea playing Malcolm, and once she got him she'd say: "My brother Tommy sends his regards." I can't believe how naive I can still be, sometimes. Of course, it was too good to be true.

 

"Don't make me choose between my brother and my father." He shouldn't have to.

[...]

The person who did not willfully kill 500 innocent people (including her real father)

I certainly hope that Thea's "don't make me choose" was a hint that she had been brainwashed.

Because yes, her real father was Robert Queen. The man who raised her, took care of her, spoiled her, the man she mourned for 5+ years.

IIRC, the writers said they also killed Moira because like that, Thea would't have anybody to turn to and would fall into her bio-dad's clutches. Ah...what did you say, you velvety-voiced, smart gentleman? You've been Thea's father figure for years, and she seemed to trust you more than her mom and in a logical world, would have turned to you?  I'm afraid the show forgot about you and it makes me so, so bitter.

 

And about Moira, I couldn't agree more with something that was said upthread. The moment Donna met Oliver, I mourned for another epic cat fight I didn't know I wanted all along: Moira "Ice Queen" Dearden vs Donna "Mama Bear" Smoak. Such a missed opportunity.

 

That's how much I don't want to watch what a trainwreck my favorite show has become.

I completely understand you. I think that if I watched the episodes I just read about, I'd melt the keyboard with all the vitriol oozing from my fingers and I think I'd make me unable to like what the show still does great.

The crossover was suprisingly good though - I'm still not interested in the Flash and weirdly, I guess, I liked the Flash characters better on the Arrow part. Vintage Team Arrow made me smile (yes it did!) plus Barry kicking the manpain in the manbutt when Oliver began to blame himself for everything including bad hair days was extremely satisfying (I understand why Oliver is traumatized, but still it was a Hell!Yeah! moment). It had only two moments I disliked, the thankfully short vintage Laurel moment and the thankfully short and hopefully forgotten again Return of the Baby Momma.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[Danny Franks]

I think that of all the characters that the show has killed, Moira's death was the most pointless. I really wish they had kept her alive, I liked her more than Malcolm. 

 

Moira should have sacrificed herself to kill Merlyn. I said, from the moment Merlyn returned, that that's what should have happened. That was the way that made sense, the way that seemed to be built up through her complicity in his Undertaking and her knowledge that he was alive (which she never did anything with), and her guilt over everything she'd done and her desire to make things right, with the city and with her children.

 

Sadly, the writers got yet another bout of ADD and forgot about Merlyn, threw Slade into Moira's story for no purpose other than to kill her, and then remembered Merlyn and decided to chuck Thea at him. Because they had no clue what to do with either character, by that point. God, these guys suck so hard when it comes to managing stories and characters effectively, and finding a pacing that does justice to everyone. At almost every turn, it seems like their ideas ended up as being less than the sum of their parts, due to just not being able to pace or restrain themselves.

[tessaray]

 

<snipped for length only>

I signed for a show about Oliver Queen, I stayed for a show about Oliver Queen with John Diggle and Felicity Smoak as his teammates (and not "sidekicks"). I signed for Arrow, an original TV show loosely inspired from a comic, with its own dynamic and universe, not for a carbon copy of Green Arrow, the comic. I'm not interested in anything else, which is why I'm out (and would be even if work gave me a longer break) until my belief is proven wrong and the show I used to enjoy so much is back.

 

Edit: Sorry for the length of this post, as I said I just finally caught up with weeks of show and it piled up.

 

Yes.  I don't think I disagreed on anything.  :-) 

 

And I'm glad you pointed out how flat MM is without MQ.  So true...

[strikera0]

I signed for a show about Oliver Queen, I stayed for a show about Oliver Queen with John Diggle and Felicity Smoak as his teammates (and not "sidekicks"). I signed for Arrow, an original TV show loosely inspired from a comic, with its own dynamic and universe, not for a carbon copy of Green Arrow, the comic.

 

I agree with all of this. It was Caity and her performance which drew me to the Canary, I never wanted or needed the character on the show because I was watching for Oliver and his team.

 

I see this sentiment (originally expecting this show to be about Oliver Queen/Green Arrow without a Black Canary presence) posted quite frequently on this board and it surprises me a little because when I started watching this show, I fully expected that it would eventually turn into the Green Arrow/Black Canary hour. I have never been big into comicbooks, but I was still aware of the rich comicbook history between the Green Arrow and Black Canary characters and by making Dinah Laurel Lance the female lead from the very first episode, I thought the writers telegraphed their intentions early.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I had no idea the show was based on a comic book or who the Green Arrow was when I started watching. But I wasn't online or on social media during the first season, so I had no idea there even was a character named Black Canary. I read some DC comic books when I was a kid, but it was mostly Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. Green Arrow and his allies were never on my radar. So yeah, I came to this show fully expecting a purely Arrow journey. Of course, NOW I'm aware of Black Canary. Maybe I wouldn't be upset about it becoming the Arrow/Canary show if I actually liked the other character. But I don't. So now I'm bitter that I'd have to sit through the "journey" of this other "hero" just to enjoy the parts of the show I've come to love.

Edited December 20, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[dtissagirl]

I love Black Canary in the comics. The prospect of a good live action Black Canary take, FINALLY, after both Birds of Prey and Smallville botched it, was one of the main reasons that made me want to watch the pilot. I also hoped for a take on the Oliver/Dinah relationship that didn't damage Dinah, like it often did in the comics. Instead I got Laurel, and sister-swapping.

Once the show itself realized neither Laurel nor the toxic backstory they created for L/O were working, and they brought Sara on as a much closer to the comics Black Canary, already a full-on superhero on her own, even, I thought the course had been corrected. But boy was I wrong. And now I have to watch them wrong the rights I thought were setttled, for reasons I really do not understand -- and believe me, I've tried to understand it, solely to give me a second banana Black Canary I don't need nor deserve. Forever bitter.

Edited December 20, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Danny Franks]

I see this sentiment (originally expecting this show to be about Oliver Queen/Green Arrow without a Black Canary presence) posted quite frequently on this board and it surprises me a little because when I started watching this show, I fully expected that it would eventually turn into the Green Arrow/Black Canary hour. I have never been big into comicbooks, but I was still aware of the rich comicbook history between the Green Arrow and Black Canary characters and by making Dinah Laurel Lance the female lead from the very first episode, I thought the writers telegraphed their intentions early.

 

I know the character of Black Canary pretty well, from the comics, but I certainly never envisaged this show as the Green Arrow/Black Canary Hour. Did I know that Black Canary would eventually appear? Yeah, but at most I saw her as the Angel to Oliver's Buffy. And at the time, we had yet to see what a dreadful mess the writers would make of the character, and how underwhelming the actress playing her would be.

 

So when plans go awry like that, any smart producer should be thinking on their feet and figuring out a way to adapt them and minimise the damage done by the elements that aren't working. For me, that meant they should have figured out a way to not have Laurel become Black Canary. And, as foolish as it seems now, there was just an inkling that they had pulled it off, when they brought in Sara as the Canary, and she worked. She worked as a character in her own right, and I thought she worked as one that could appear every once in a while, for a span of episodes, and then depart without leaving too big a hole. It was the ideal solution to a show that had moved away from the original concept of Oliver as a vengeance-driven loner to one who had a team around him that the audience liked. They didn't need Black Canary at that point, but instead of cutting their losses, they've gone all in. And I think their bluff will be called as soon as she makes an appearance wearing that silly costume, which appears to do little to hide her stick-thin arms and legs. Asskicking vigilante? She doesn't look like she could swat a fly.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[pootlus]

I'm baffled as much as I am bitter.  While I wasn't too fond of the heavy focus on Sara in 2B, I assumed it was because they were seriously considering reviving the BoP spinoff concept.  They could have had a bunch of ass-kicking women (Sara, Nyssa, Huntress and Sin) and it could have been awesome.

 

I just don't get why they'd throw that potential away for Buckle Canary and yet more manpain for Oliver.

[Luckylyn]

 

-I expected much from Thea's storyline, her rise as her own empowered self, for good or evil. She got a condo with Daddy's blood money, another love interest/romantic plot, and a brainwash instead. Oh joy and 20 years or so of Girl's Power.

I was really looking forward to Thea and Malcolm's story this season, and it's been a major disappointment.  The thing is they could have made Thea Sara's killer without taking her agency away and making her and Sara tools for Malcolm.   The writers could have established that Thea had no clue Sara was Canary.   They could have had it that Thea was aware that Malcolm life was in danger because of the League of assassins.    Thea could have found out that Canary was following her father and she decided to kill the Black Canary to protect the only parent she had left. That would have still lead to Oliver's decision to take the fall in The Climb.  We could have got a whole story arc out of Thea figuring out how she feels about being a killer and how she'd react to the discovery that The Black Canary was Sara.   Let Thea find out her brother "died" for her crime and cope with the guilt.  Would she go further to the dark side or would she drastically change course away from Malcolm's influence?  But I realize that Thea is not a character to the writers but a plot device.  I'm bitter about the waste of Sara, Thea, Shado, and Moira.  So many female characters have been sacrificed for plot purposes when they could have gotten other stories from them surviving.

[tessaray]

Especially ironic considering how the women killed so far hurt story but if LL had died in the undertaking, then it would have generated seasons worth of story for Quentin, Tommy and Oliver. 

[TwistedandBored]

 

This GIF set on Tumblr made me realize something I hadn't really considered before.

 

Truth time: Oliver's death scene didn't really crush me. Maybe I'm just too used to comics where no character ever really stays dead and is resurrected for what often later turns out questionable reasons, but, point is, I wasn't as upset by Oliver's "death" as I perhaps should have been.

 

BUT THIS UPSETS ME.

 

Because I refuse to believe the Team Arrow we've come to love is gone, replaced by some Botched Canary and Arsenal lead bullshit come season 3B. If it's only like that for a couple of episodes I'll be able to handle it (as I fast forward through a lot of those episodes) but if there's indication the Team Arrow we've come to know and love is gone? Then count me OUT.

 

This gifs bothers me to no end! Like Diggle is more of an protective older brother to Oliver than Roy can ever hope to be. What a load of BS! I don't blame the person who made this thought. This is what the show has been pushing lately which is stupid. 

[insubordination]

 

I had no idea the show was based on a comic book or who the Green Arrow was when I started watching.

 

I knew Green Arrow from SV, though I stopped watching shortly after he joined (I only watched it for Luthors), so I had no stake in the character. 

 

Honestly, I originally tuned into 'Arrow' because of the salmon ladder promos and the fact that it seemed to be more adult-oriented than 'Smallville'.

 

Another reason is that for S1,  I saw a couple of great promos implying that Moira was a liar and perhaps arranged to have Oliver and her husband run into trouble or something.  That to me was interesting - that she appeared to love her son, but was lying straight to his face. Did she actually wish he never came back?  I always loved the Lionel/Lex dynamic on Smallville and hoped for more of the same. I thought the extreme wealth was interesting too.

 

I am so disappointed that Moira (and Walter actually) are no longer on the show.  The Walter character was such a huge surprise to me because he was a genuine good guy. I didn't care for his last appearance(s) centred around Moira's election. It seemed OOC. 

 

Someone pointed out that with all this 'father' stuff, they have needed Walter as a counterpoint to Malcolm. I tend to agree. They are wasting Barrowman again and it was a mistake to get rid of Thompson. They are sidelining Quentin/Blackthorne in favour of non-regulars, so he might as well have died too.

 

 

So many female characters have been sacrificed for plot purposes when they could have gotten other stories from them surviving.

 

This show reminds me of that time Homer Simpson's head turned into a donut in a Halloween episode; he just couldn't resist eating his own head because it was delicious. They have had some great characters and actors on Arrow, and couldn't resist killing them off to 'further' Oliver/Laurel/Slade.  It's just now there's almost nothing delicious left to eat.

Edited December 21, 2014 by insubordination

[statsgirl]

I never expected it to be the Green Arrow/Black Canary show because it's called "Arrow".  Batman could get away with being called Batman and still having Robin there because Robin is Batman's sidekick, which is not what the Black Canary is to the Green Arrow, but even most of the movies didn't have Robin.

 

Feels like a bait-and-switch, first to have Sara Canary equal to Oliver in 3B, and then to kill her off (why did they spend to much time on her if they were just going to kill her off?) and then so much of 3A devoted to making Laurel into the Black Canary over other characters who actually can fight.

 

Especially ironic considering how the women killed so far hurt story but if LL had died in the undertaking, then it would have generated seasons worth of story for Quentin, Tommy and Oliver. 

Ironic indeed, because of all the women killed (which I hate), Laurel is the one that would have generated the most story for other characters had she been killed, and Moira and Sara the ones who would have generated the most storylines being alive.  

 

They've doubly shot themselves in the foot by killing Moira because Malcolm is much less interesting with her gone, so they've lost not only Oliver's mother but a good antagonist for him.

[pootlus]

Especially ironic considering how the women killed so far hurt story but if LL had died in the undertaking, then it would have generated seasons worth of story for Quentin, Tommy and Oliver. 

 

Yeah, normally I'm completely against the fridging of women just to advance the storyline of a bunch of blokes, but in this case I'd be "on balance, good tradeoff". Plus it could have led to Sara returning to SC in full-on vengeance mode instead of "Hi Oliver, remember me?" mode, and battling Oliver as they clash over his new no-kill policy.  Both could grow over the course of a season and then she could leave to start her own show.

 

Okay I'm bitter as well as baffled.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, normally I'm completely against the fridging of women just to advance the storyline of a bunch of blokes, but in this case I'd be "on balance, good tradeoff". Plus it could have led to Sara returning to SC in full-on vengeance mode instead of "Hi Oliver, remember me?" mode, and battling Oliver as they clash over his new no-kill policy.  Both could grow over the course of a season and then she could leave to start her own show.

 

Okay I'm bitter as well as baffled.

 

For once, they would actually have been right to say, 'this death opens up so many storylines for us'. And yet, it's the one death they did not decide to go for. I think it would have made for some great television, to see Oliver vs Sara, in a temporary enmity over Laurel's death, and to see Quentin desperate for his one surviving daughter to come home and just be normal. Then you'd have the questions of Sara's burgeoning friendships with Diggle and Felicity, and how they would now clash. And maybe even have Nyssa as a wild card, who could alternate between supporting Sara and fearing that the woman she loves is going too far off the deep end.

 

Oh, and if they'd kept Teen Arrow together, then they could have had a subplot where Sara uses them, through Sin, to find stuff out for her. With them later feeling betrayed when Sara uses the knowledge to her own ends. It would have been a much darker Sara, for a while, and it would have been a question of how far the writers were willing to go before pulling her back from the brink. Sadly, none of it will ever happen. Because these dicks thought that killing her offered them more storylines. Or at least, offered them the storyline they want, which is Laurel as a vigilante.

 

But it goes back to my earlier point of this show nearly always ending up as so much less than the sum of its parts. And that's down to the writing.

[tv echo]

The biggest WTF with respect to Thea's loyalty to Malcolm is this... wasn't Malcolm the one who sabotaged the Queen's Gambit which led to the shipwreck and Robert Queen's death?  So Thea is being loyal to a man (Malcolm) who caused the death of her real - albeit not biological - father (Robert), the man who raised Thea and loved her?  Has Thea forgotten Robert?  Does she know that Malcolm caused Robert's death?

[KirkB]

No, I don't think she does know. Hell, I'm not sure even Oliver knows. Or maybe he does and I've forgotten. Either way, this mid season finale seems to strongly implicate Thea is not so much loyal to Malcolm as drugged or brainwashed.

Edited December 21, 2014 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

The biggest WTF with respect to Thea's loyalty to Malcolm is this... wasn't Malcolm the one who sabotaged the Queen's Gambit which led to the shipwreck and Robert Queen's death? So Thea is being loyal to a man (Malcolm) who caused the death of her real - albeit not biological - father (Robert), the man who raised Thea and loved her? Has Thea forgotten Robert? Does she know that Malcolm caused Robert's death?

not only killed Robert but apparently (for at least 5 years) killed Oliver. Then when Oliver came back Thea still lost years with her brother who came naco different. The proceeded to kidnap amd tortured her step father (whom Thea seemed to love). Finally Malcolm's actions resulted in the death of 503 people including Tommy, who Thea also seemed to love.

[Happy Harpy]

 

No, I don't think she does know. Hell, I'm not sure even Oliver knows. Or maybe he does and I've forgotten. Either way, this mid season finale seems to strongly implicate Thea is not so much loyal to Malcolm and drugged or brainwashed.

I think that Moira talked about the Queen Gambit during her press conference at the end of S1.

Isn't it sad when you wish a character is brainwashed because otherwise, their behavior makes no sense no matter how hard you try to fanwank? (See also Wilson, Slade.)

[Morrigan2575]

It also came out during the trial right? I could have sworn that was part of Moira's defense.

[Enero]

Yep. Both Oliver and Thea know that Malcom killed Robert. Oliver first heard about it when he overheard Moira and Malcom arguing over Walter's "death" in 1x20. He heard about it again during Moira's press conference (along with Thea) and as stated it was used again in her trial as a reason why she was afraid of Malcom.

I agree with others. With all of this it makes absolutely no sense that Thea would take up with Malcom and trust him unless she is under the influence of some kind of hypnotic herb.

I also agree about Slade. Though I think he is one of the Arrow's best villains his motives were weak. First off when did he fall so in love with Shado (a love I might add that wasn't reciprocated) that when she died it sent him into an inconsolable raging lunatic (of course the Mirakuru was the main source of that)? But after he was cured you'd think there would've been some kind of realization then horror at what he'd done but nope he was still completely insane, which did not mesh with the Slade we'd come to know on the island. Perhaps being too long under the Mirakuru influence does permanent damage to one's psyche?

[tessaray]

 

This gifs bothers me to no end! Like Diggle is more of an protective older brother to Oliver than Roy can ever hope to be. What a load of BS! I don't blame the person who made this thought. This is what the show has been pushing lately which is stupid.

 

I can accept Roy as a little brother but yeah, friend doesn't express the depth of the Oliver/Diggle relationship at all.  Lover irks me though, because, well, they aren't.  Love maybe, not lover. 

 

I think I could have gotten past all the crappy writing so far if they had left Team Arrow intact.  

[DrSpaceman10]

I think it's a general assumption that a superhero on a comic-book show = person who wears a costume (which I do NOT agree with). Diggle (and Felicity) are every bit as heroic as Oliver. I feel like Diggle (and Felicity) keep getting sidelined for costumed people (in 2B and now maybe in 3B) and it's really starting to piss me off.

Why can't we get a story about HIVE and Diggle (a character whom people actually care about) instead of The Atom/BC? Same goes for Felicity, when is she going to get an arc?

[Morrigan2575]

The problem is, no one ever said superhero, fans took heroes and said that means costumes. So Diggle and Felicity aren't even "heroes" because they don't wear masks.

I completely disagree with this concept.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[DrSpaceman10]

The problem is, no one ever said superhero, fans took heroes and said that means costumes. So Diggle and Felicity aren't even "legit heroes" because they don't wear masks.

I completely disagree with this concept.

 

I never said/thought that Diggle and Felicity aren't "legit heroes" because they don't wear masks. Diggle, Felicity, Oliver are the only people I've ever considered to be heroes on Arrow. Also, I tend to use the words superhero and hero interchangeably, although I think superhero technically means a hero with superhuman powers (ie: Superman).  

Edited December 27, 2014 by drspaceman10

[Password]

. Also, I tend to use the words superhero and hero interchangeably, although I think superhero technically means a hero with superhuman powers (ie: Superman).

Yeah I don't get why Oliver is a SUPERhero? He's just a man with better than average archery and fighting skills. Barry actually has super speed. Oliver has...?

[apinknightmare]

The problem is, no one ever said superhero, fans took heroes and said that means costumes. So Diggle and Felicity aren't even "legit heroes" because they don't wear masks.

I completely disagree with this concept.

 

The problem is that you're assuming that because people thought that DR was referring to costumed superheroes when he said "legit heroes" that they're somehow discounting Diggle and Felicity's bravery or value, when they're not. No one ever said they weren't heroes. 

 

When discussing a superhero show, generally people think the word "hero" is synonymous with "superhero." So, when I listen to DR's interview - even though he said "legit heroes" instead of "superheroes", I would assume he was talking superheroes as I interpret them in this medium aka a costumed, known comics person. It's not an indictment on Diggle or Felicity or how important or heroic they are. It's got everything to do with the reader/watcher/listener's expectation and interpretation. For example,

I know I'm watching Laurel and Ray (and possibly Thea)'s origin story, so that knowledge informs my interpretation of what he said, and that interpretation is that at least one of them is suiting up and joining Oliver's crusade. I also know per a Q&A on SA's Facebook that the increased number of people fighting for Starling City (I can't remember how he phrased it) plays a part in Oliver's mindset at the end of the season. Diggle and Felicity have been working with him for two years now, so I don't think either one of them has anything to do with this change in mindset - Oliver's getting relief from being the full-time protector of the city, which, again, suggests more costumed heroes. 

[Morrigan2575]

I never said/thought that Diggle and Felicity aren't "legit heroes" because they don't wear masks. Diggle, Felicity, Oliver are the only people I've ever considered to be heroes on Arrow. Also, I tend to use the words superhero and hero interchangeably, although I think superhero technically means a hero with superhuman powers (ie: Superman).

I never said you did. What I said was fans automatically took hero and changed it to superheroes and then eliminated Diggle and Felicity because superheroes wear masks.

[BkWurm1]

I can accept Roy as a little brother but yeah, friend doesn't express the depth of the Oliver/Diggle relationship at all.  Lover irks me though, because, well, they aren't.  Love maybe, not lover.

 

Friend is a broad word and within it's meaning, the relationship between Oliver and Diggle is covered it just doesn't readily express all the nuances that are there.  As for the term lover, it for centuries only meant romantic partner, the sex component is a relatively modern take on it, but Felicity was right, lover is a creepy word. 

[Genki]

I really am feeling bitter about the huge importance being given to comic book "cannon"over characters this season.

 

As a viewer I have no interested in predetermined destinies. Things like prequels do absolutely nothing for me since they take away tension, flexibility and force the writing for plot rather than organic (and superior) story development. I'm not saying that there is no need to have a road map or a destinations (because really it is so important) but tying yourself too much into a predetermined journey limits the entertainment value. 

 

I'm bitter that "because comics" reasoning is making the show less (for me) this season, when I know it can be more. I'll watch 3.10 to see the reaction to Oliver's death, but not excited by anything else. I'm not opposed to an Oliver is dead storyline, I think there is a lot of potential if done right, but I doubt that they will happen, given the way S 3A has developed so far.

 

This is why Season 3 has been so lacklustre IMO, while season 1 & 2(A) was superior. They took the inspiration from comics but they did not become a slaves to them. The way the seasons were written out you got to the destination but the journey was super enjoyable. There was time to set the moments properly and to give character nuances their due, (well more than this season). There was much less calls of OOC and a much better balance between all elements that make up the show.

 

This season is seems like we are forced into certain directions but I'm not enjoying to effort it is taking to get there and I resent this so much.

 

Staring with Ray Palmer. I'm feel like I'm supposed to care about Ray Palmer because his name is Ray Palmer, and the future Atom and BR is playing him, but really, why should I? His origin story is SWM-ing Oliver, his characterisation is at odds between what I'm being told vs. what I'm being shown, frankly I couldn't care less about his dead finance and then there are the CRAZY EYES...I can't get past the Crazy Eyes. 

 

As for Arsenal, even though he is integrating better into Team Arrow, I'm finding so much about Roy cheesy. His costume (looks fine in photos but ridiculous in motion) The red hood and mask, plus CH's height makes him look ridiculous and does not give me confidence in "Arsenal" stepping up to protect the city. Also I don't think they gave him a proper heroes' journey to his persona. And unfortunately the stunts more often than not, come off as a bit ridiculous. Moments where I was taken out of the story include, synchronised arrows, unnecessary parkour just seeing 2 costumed people running around Starling City, especially with Diggle looking all Digglesquse in his civvies. Even though Roy isn't grating, I would not miss him if he wasn't there. 

 

And then there is the "Canary" journey....what can I say that hasn't been said so many times before? Killing off Sara closed off so many interesting story possibilities, and forced a subpar origins story, on me. This I'm the most bitter about but, there is no need to elaborate on this board.

 

Thea and Malcolm has been neglected so much and now with the Sara reveal, and Malcolm setting Thea up, I've lost a lot of interest in that relationship, and I totally agree with all those that say we need Moira back to be a foil to Malcolm and fight him for Thea's soul. Something I don't think Oliver is capable of doing by himself. Also disturbing DJ douchebag, speculation that he has a comic book persona is not enough for me to put up with that much dickiness, on my screen especially when I don't by Thea's reactions as genuine or in character.

 

So now that the one comic book character that I'm hugely invested in is "dead" I have no interest in any of these other costumed characters taking the lead, and I don't want to spend the next 3-4 episodes focused on them, especially if Characters that I'm more interested in will be pushed to the background or be used to prop, the other "heroes". Stephen was right when he said (tweeted?) "Arrow was more then 1 person" [/paraphrase] but, for me Arrow is Oliver/Felicity/Diggle, everyone else are the support players.

 

I think the fact that 3.08 & 3.09 gave me back a taste of what has been missing from Season 3A (Humour, Olicity, Shirtless Oliver, Oliver/Thea, tension & movement on the story front, action scenes that don't take me out of my escapism) only to snatch it away by "killing" Oliver makes it so much worse. There is very little being spoiled or that I can foresee coming for that next few episodes that make me excited to watch the show. 

 

Apologies for the long rant.

[NumberCruncher]

Rant away, @Genki. You've eloquently said everything that I've wanted to say since the MSF and just haven't had the energy or motivation to verbalize. That's how uninterested I am with the season so far and where it is headed. I'm hoping my general boredom and borderline disinterest lessens by the time the hiatus is over. Basically I need something...ANYTHING to motivate me to watch the next 3 or 4 episodes.

[Happy Harpy]

 

I'm not opposed to an Oliver is dead storyline, I think there is a lot of potential if done right, but I doubt that they will happen, given the way S 3A has developed so far.

Exactly. My problem is the lingering feeling that Oliver and Team Arrow are going to be replaced.

I even wouldn't mind if Team Arrow was forcibly dismantled if I were certain they'd find their way to each other again, like I did whenever Mulder and Scully were separated.

 

It's striking when you compare the new characters with the way Barry was dealt with. He was immediately integrated with the whole team, had interactions with everyone and he was directly involved in Oliver's activities. So far, Ray has been 99% connected to Felicity, only, and he's on his journey which parallels Oliver's activities but isn't part of them; the time that Felicity spends with him effectively cuts her from Oliver and Diggle. Laurel does her thing on the side with Ted and monopolizes Quentin's screentime; again, she's on her journey which only parallels Oliver, even though she's supposed to have Sara's murder in common with Oliver and Team Arrow, they don't even investigate together.

That's why for me, the show doesn't feel like Arrow anymore, and it makes me bitter.

[calliope1975]

It's striking when you compare the new characters with the way Barry was dealt with. He was immediately integrated with the whole team, had interactions with everyone and he was directly involved in Oliver's activities. So far, Ray has been 99% connected to Felicity, only, and he's on his journey which parallels Oliver's activities but isn't part of them; the time that Felicity spends with him effectively cuts her from Oliver and Diggle. Laurel does her thing on the side with Ted and monopolizes Quentin's screentime; again, she's on her journey which only parallels Oliver, even though she's supposed to have Sara's murder in common with Oliver and Team Arrow, they don't even investigate together.

That's why for me, the show doesn't feel like Arrow anymore, and it makes me bitter.

 

It really struck me during the Arrow part of the crossover. We had 4 new characters in the Arrow Cave (Barry, Lyla, Cisco, and Caitlin) which should have overwhelmed it, yet it never felt crowded to me. Everyone worked so well together and each seemed to bring something unique to the group. 

 

I contrast that with how I felt when Laurel was there which just grated on me. Maybe it's because I don't like her, but I didn't feel like it was a natural fit. 

[wonderwall]

It really struck me during the Arrow part of the crossover. We had 4 new characters in the Arrow Cave (Barry, Lyla, Cisco, and Caitlin) which should have overwhelmed it, yet it never felt crowded to me. Everyone worked so well together and each seemed to bring something unique to the group. 

 

I contrast that with how I felt when Laurel was there which just grated on me. Maybe it's because I don't like her, but I didn't feel like it was a natural fit. 

That's because everyone on Team Flash respects and looks up to Team Arrow. They're nice to them and they get each other. With Laurel, she's been badly integrated because all we've seen her do is boss Team Arrow around telling them what to do and just being in the way without actually contributing something meaningful. 

[Happy Harpy]

 

I contrast that with how I felt when Laurel was there which just grated on me. Maybe it's because I don't like her, but I didn't feel like it was a natural fit.

Answering in the Team Arrow thread :)

[Oscirus]

I still love this show, just getting into the spirit.

 

1. What the hell did they do to the Bronze tiger?  One of the most feared martial artists in the dc comics, someone who beat batman in a fight, got  beat up by a roided up park our doofus.  How is it that on an episode titled The Suicide Squad which only had two members for most of it  was he so badly ignored? If you didn't have room for  him in said storyline then don't include him on the team.

 

2. I get that Diggle is the heart of the show and all but why does everybody insist upon listening to him. Lyla has no problems doing her job until Diggle comes along, Felicity apparently has no problem with Diggle inserting himself in her private life, well I guess Oliver does disagree with him from time to time.

 

3. I hope that the writers realize that there's a difference between assertive and  being a pain in the butt.  I have no problem with Laurel as a character, but I can see why others do since she often crosses that line.

 

4. I hate Roy.

 

5.  It took them three years to getThea a storyline that didn't begin and end with "stop lying to me?"

Edited December 27, 2014 by Oscirus

[chaos is welcome]

...

 

5.  It took them three years to getThea a storyline that didn't begin and end with "stop lying to me?"

And the absolute freaking HUMOUROUS thing about that is that she became a lying liar who lies with her new S/L. 

 

Anyway, I digress.  I came to just vent (once again) about how much I miss the old version of this show.  I really hope the tweets from PR lady about buckle canary were just squawking, because I really love the idea of this show and I really really really don't want to stop watching it but man, Laurel becoming a hero by the end of the season is such a deal breaker. 

I am bitter that they sidelined Roy's origin story in 2B for Sara, only to then off Sara so violently.  Oliver's reveal to Roy about his identity was probably my favorite 2B moment---just the fact that Oliver finally had someone say THANK YOU instead of going OMG--YOU ARE A MURDERER! When they found out his identity (other than Felicity, she didn't call him that but pretty much everyone else has).   I was so looking forward to watching Roy integrate himself into the team but BAM, we then got multiple eps without him and with Sara suddenly in the forefront.  Why?  WHY WHY WHY?  If they were going to give Sara all that screen time, why did they not actually spend time developing her relationship with her sister?  There are about 1,000,001 times infinity ways they could have made an effort to make buckle canary believable.  Like, ohhhh, first of all show Sara and Laurel having a few more heart to hearts instead of having Laurel throw glasswear at her.  Show Sara telling Laurel a little about her past instead of leaving all of us to fanwank whether or not she ever really told Laurel about the League/Mentioned Ras by name/etc/etc/etc.  Heck, maybe have Sara say gee, Laurel, I notice you get in trouble a lot.  I know dad had you take some self defense, but here, lookie what you can do if you stand like this.  Or hell, even have the poor girl take up some sort of martial arts/physical activity as she begins her road to recovery from her stupid drug problem S/L. Instead of having her start AFTER Sara is dead in October and then suit up 3.5 months later.

I. DON'T. GET. IT.  And I really want to not care, but its souring everything.  Especially when Moira, who was diabolical and would have been so fun to watch this season with Donna Smoak and Malcolm Merlyn is DEAD.  Especially when Sara is DEAD.  

I listen to the music from the cross and I look at the great stuff they gave us in the crossover eps, and I look at what we're probably going to get, and I just can't. Ugh.

[DrSpaceman10]

 I really hope the tweets from PR lady about buckle canary were just squawking, 

 

I see what you did there, lol.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Regarding Roy's story, I'm still waiting for the Season 2.5 comics to show how he transitioned from the Mirakuru guy that everyone was wary of at the end of the season to Team Arrow's "little brother" this season. It's been 9 issues and so far he's been out cold for most of them; not a lot of opportunity to build relationships there. There are only supposed to be 24 issues, and Guggenheim said the plan was for the comics to end like 5 minutes before the opening of the third season. They have a lot of ground to cover in the next 15 eps and it will probably feel as rushed as his relationships with the team on the show. I don't mind Roy but they couldn't even successfully integrate him in the comics. And this is the character who's supposed to take on a bigger role while Oliver is gone?

 

Same with Laurel ... if the show only established this deep sisterly bond, then I probably would buy all this crying and hunger for revenge. Probably. She had that cemetery scene in "The Climb" where she was trying to talk to Sara — and I felt nothing. Because I can't buy this love for her sister. And that is one of the many problems with 2B. It did not adequately set up, for me anyway, these relationships that are now driving Season 3. If only they didn't attach Sara to Oliver's magic penis and used ALL THAT TIME instead to actually rebuild the relationship between the sisters, then I would buy this drive to punish her sister's killers. There was that one awkward apology scene. Except I thought the wrong person was apologizing. Sigh.

[Password]

Regarding Roy's story, I'm still waiting for the Season 2.5 comics to show how he transitioned from the Mirakuru guy that everyone was wary of at the end of the season to Team Arrow's "little brother" this season. It's been 9 issues and so far he's been out cold for most of them; not a lot of opportunity to build relationships there. There are only supposed to be 24 issues, and Guggenheim said the plan was for the comics to end like 5 minutes before the opening of the third season. They have a lot of ground to cover in the next 15 eps and it will probably feel as rushed as his relationships with the team on the show. I don't mind Roy but they couldn't even successfully integrate him in the comics. And this is the character who's supposed to take on a bigger role while Oliver is gone?

Same with Laurel ... if the show only established this deep sisterly bond, then I probably would buy all this crying and hunger for revenge. Probably. She had that cemetery scene in "The Climb" where she was trying to talk to Sara — and I felt nothing. Because I can't buy this love for her sister. And that is one of the many problems with 2B. It did not adequately set up, for me anyway, these relationships that are now driving Season 3. If only they didn't attach Sara to Oliver's magic penis and used ALL THAT TIME instead to actually rebuild the relationship between the sisters, then I would buy this drive to punish her sister's killers. There was that one awkward apology scene. Except I thought the wrong person was apologizing. Sigh.

I agree with you entirely. I can't connect with Laurel because I personally thought they hated each other. Their actions spoke louder than Laurel's sinking boat analogy.

Also even though I agree Sara should've been the one to apologise, it would've fallen on (my) deaf ears because she was right back to shagging Oliver again. What a failure.