Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[KirkB]

The only thing I could see Laurel bringing to an appearance on Flash is an epic verbal beatdown from Wells for the way she was treating everyone.

[Chaser]

I just don't understand having a Black Canary who can't fight and has no cry. That's like having a Green Arrow who can't shoot an arrow. I get putting a twist on the characters, but I think thats taking it too far from the Black Canary. Does that make sense?

[Sakura12]

What they did is give everyone the latest large screen high def tv with thousands of channels and internet , take that away and replace it with tiny black and white tv with 3 channels and expect us to be fine with that. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

I just don't understand having a Black Canary who can't fight and has no cry. That's like having a Green Arrow who can't shoot an arrow. I get putting a twist on the characters, but I think thats taking it too far from the Black Canary. Does that make sense?

 

It does. Laurel feels like a slap in the face whenever I try to compare her to Dinah Lance in the comics, whom I adore. I basically just wanna yell YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES at everyone involved in Laurel existing. And possibly sic'cing Gail Simone on them.

[Chaser]

Someone mentioned Nyssa as Black Canary and I'm really bitter because that could make so much sense and it would be so awesome.  Something drives Nyssa to turn on her father and she takes up the mantle Black Canary as a tribute to her fallen lover. We periodically see her in Starling City because she feels duty to Oliver and the Lances because of Sara. It would have been so perfect. :-(

[Sakura12]

Or Nyssa could've called herself Jade Canary and taken Lady Shiva's place from the comics where she tries being good for awhile. 

[KirkB]

Jade Canary actually sounds even cooler than Black Canary.

[Sakura12]

When I was still in my denial stage about Laurel not being BC, I was thinking that Nyssa stepping in and calling herself Jade Canary to honor her lover would've been something to see. 

 

But, this show seems hellbent on destroying everything just to make Laurel relevant and super hero to match Oliver and Sara. When that is something they should've been working on since Season 1, Episode 1! 

 

At this point, Black Canary is dead. We don't need another one. This is Oliver/Green Arrow's show, let him and his team defeat the bad guys.  He has military, he has tech, he has a side kick, he has a law enforcement helper and he even has a science team in Central City. He already has everyone he could possibly need. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[tessaray]

 

When that is something they should've been working on since Season 1, Episode 1!

I can't even pretend to rationalize the show making Laurel look so bad in S2 - with flashbacks showing her scheming to get Oliver for herself and away from Sara.  Or her reaction to Sara returning from the dead.  I'm bitter about that, especially since all that remains onscreen is Laurel's addiction.  I guess it gives her something of a life (AA meetings and bonding with Quentin) but what a waste of time it all was for the audience.  

 

This show is still under my skin though.  I'm even bitter about how much fun the crossover episodes were.  It's proof that the writers and producers can bring it if motivated... 

Edited December 4, 2014 by tessaray

[tv echo]

Maybe we should have a topic thread listing all of the conversations that we know took place but didn't get to watch on screen -

... Like the conversation where Team Flash was informed of the BIG SECRET of the Canary's death and her identity as Sara Lance.
... Like the conversation where Sara told Laurel all about the LOA's TOP SECRET old-fashioned communication method of using purple smoke.

 

And maybe we should have another topic thread listing all of the things we're asked to handwave away -

... Like how no one can possibly recognize either Oliver in his Arrow costume or Barry in his Flash costume.

... Like Laurel's carrying Sara's arrow-ridden body from the alley to the basement Arrowcave.

... Like how Oliver manages to transport his enemies to the ARGUS island prison so cheaply and quickly.

Edited December 4, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

... Like how Oliver manages to transport his enemies to the ARGUS island prison so cheaply and quickly.

 

I fanwanked this as meaning that ARGUS paid for the trip, with Oliver escorting the prisoner.  Though Oliver, in the Flash episode, referred to the Lian Yu prison as his own, heh

[HighHopes]

I fanwanked this as meaning that ARGUS paid for the trip, with Oliver escorting the prisoner.  Though Oliver, in the Flash episode, referred to the Lian Yu prison as his own, heh

I decided that Barry ran them there. Because that flight would have been super long and there would have been no point in both Oliver and Barry going if it was for ARGUS. Although I am hoping they brought Slade some food while they were there. 

[Pothunter]

Not bitterness exactly, but the fact that every Tom, Dick and Harry can get into the lair throws a poor light on Felicity's technical skills.

 

I guess the writers just send her talent out for a long walk during plot-driven actions :)

[apinknightmare]

Not bitterness exactly, but the fact that every Tom, Dick and Harry can get into the lair throws a poor light on Felicity's technical skills.

 

Why? They're housed in a POS facility that has drippy ceilings and steam coming through the floors - these villains probably aren't finding their way in through any place that's protected by an actual armed entrance.

Edited December 5, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Pothunter]

Why? They're housed in a POS facility that has drippy ceilings and steam coming through the floors - these villains probably aren't finding their way in through any place that's protected by an actual armed entrance.

My thinking on this aspect was that, after Slade's invasion, security of the lair would have been tightened. Ingress points would have been assessed and those large enough for men would have been protected electronically. All smaller ones could be booby trapped and/or equipped with motion sensors or other early warning systems.

 

This clearly has not happened, which is down to the writers to facilitate plots and dramatic situations, adversely affecting characters whose strengths are in security management, both cyber and physical.

[Password]

I just want to know what happened to the back up lair?! I really thought that's where we'd be this season seeing as they mentioned all new sets.

[Ceylon5]

I think if someone's determined to get into the cave, they will - which is why keeping its location a secret is supposed to be so important.  Slade had super strength, so he could have just punched his way through the wall if he'd felt so inclined - we didn't see where/how he came in because he was already there when our crew arrived.

 

The Boomerang guy is obviously an explosives expert, so could easily have blown the lock off (there's not really anything you can do to guard against that).

 

Has any other bad guy managed to get into the cave?  I know Nyssa dropped by uninvited at one point, which would imply that a) Sara gave her the code the last time they dropped by, and b) they haven't changed the codes since then, which seems unlikely, or c) Felicity had sent Sara the most recent code change prior to her death and she told Nyssa for whatever reason.  But that's all kind of a stretch that I could have done without - they too often trade logic for Dramatic Effect.  Internal consistency is much more important to me than short-lived Ta-Da moments.

[apinknightmare]

My thinking on this aspect was that, after Slade's invasion, security of the lair would have been tightened. Ingress points would have been assessed and those large enough for men would have been protected electronically. All smaller ones could be booby trapped and/or equipped with motion sensors or other early warning systems.

 

This clearly has not happened, which is down to the writers to facilitate plots and dramatic situations, adversely affecting characters whose strengths are in security management, both cyber and physical.

 

 

Well, she's a tech person, not a contractor or construction worker, haha. In order for a point of entry to be electronically secured, it'd have to be closed first - Oliver or Digg would probably have to take care of that. I feel like if there are legit structural issues (and there very much are), that's not really in Felicity's purview. Ultimately I'm not going to hold anyone responsible for someone accessing the foundry because if the writers need them to, they will. It's stupid that they're still using that club as their base of operations considering all the people who know where it is, and then there's the fact that Oliver doesn't even own the building anymore. 

[dtissagirl]

I just want to know what happened to the back up lair?! I really thought that's where we'd be this season seeing as they mentioned all new sets.

 

Someone asked Greg Berlanti about it at SDCC, his answer was basically "we like the Arrow cave so we're keeping it" [he called it Bat cave, actually. HEH]. Which for me translates to "it's a super practical set that we're used to work in, and we don't have the budget to redress it to look like it's a different place." 

 

I kinda think the EPs find it incredibly funny that the secret identities are all disclosed with no afterthought, and that the lair is unsecured and can be breached by anybody willing. Like it's a writers room running joke.

Edited December 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[writersblock51]

Someone asked Greg Berlanti about it at SDCC, his answer was basically "we like the Arrow cave so we're keeping it" [he called it Bat cave, actually. HEH]. Which for me translates to "it's a super practical set that we're used to work in, and we don't have the budget to redress it to look like it's a different place." 

 

I kinda think the EPs find it incredibly funny that the secret identities are all disclosed with no afterthought, and that the lair is unsecured and can be breached by anybody willing. Like it's a writers room running joke.

 

I agree - I think it's a running joke or something similar.

 

But it only adds to the problem of taking Oliver seriously when he says that the cave/lair is safe (it isn't - as seen with Lyla this week) or that he's keeping his loved ones safe (he isn't - Thea is upstairs, Team Arrow is in the lair with him - easily found, apparently).

 

I'm fine with the show taking some things lighter and less seriously than others but I don't think touting the security of the lair/cave should be one of them.

Edited December 5, 2014 by writersblock51

[dtissagirl]

I agree - I think it's a running joke or something similar.

 

But it only adds to the problem of taking Oliver seriously when he says that the cave/lair is safe (it isn't - as seen with Lyla this week) or that he's keeping his loved ones safe (he isn't - Thea is upstairs, Team Arrow is in the lair with him - easily found, apparently).

 

I'm fine with the show taking some things lighter and less seriously than others but I don't think touting the security of the lair/cave shouldn't be one of them.

 

This is an interesting point, because yes, I totally agree it makes Team Arrow looks incompetent as a whole. And it kinda makes Oliver sound completely delusional when he says he can provide security -- the example with Lyla in 308 is spot on.

 

I guess I don't mind it because I have never taken any of Oliver's security measures seriously. It doesn't matter to me if he -- all of Team Arrow, really -- comes out wrong because the writers are taking it lightly. They should have moved from the foundry the second Helena got arrested after being in the lair. She could have sold them and their location out at anytime for a deal. But when they didn't move, I just accepted that this show simply doesn't care about the RL security measures a secret vigilante team should have in place. They don't care, so I choose not to as well.

 

It's not just the lair, even. It's also the unsecured comms Sara warned Oliver about in 301, and the fact that Diggle and Felicity's names are spoken aloud on comms during missions, while all sorts of bad guys are standing 5 feet away. And Felicity never ever says "Arrow" on comms, she just says "Oliver". It's Doing Super-Heroing Wrong all around wrt security. My pet theory is every single baddie in SC knows Oliver is the Arrow, and knows everyone in his crew, and they just don't engage for fear the Cuckoo Crazy Billionaire will go back to killing their minions.

Edited December 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

This is an interesting point, because yes, I totally agree it makes Team Arrow looks incompetent as a whole. And it kinda makes Oliver sound completely delusional when he says he can provide security -- the example with Lyla in 308 is spot on.

 

I guess I don't mind it because I have never taken any of Oliver's security measures seriously. It doesn't matter to me if he -- all of Team Arrow, really -- comes out wrong because the writers are taking it lightly. They should have moved from the foundry the second Helena got arrested after being in the lair. She could have sold them and their location out at anytime for a deal. But when they didn't move, I just accepted that this show simply doesn't care about the RL security measures a secret vigilante team should have in place. They don't care, so I choose not to as well.

 

It's not just the lair, even. It's also the unsecured comms Sara warned Oliver about in 301, and the fact that Diggle and Felicity's names are spoken aloud on comms during missions, while all sorts of bad guys are standing 5 feet away. And Felicity never ever says "Arrow" on comms, she just says "Oliver". It's Doing Super-Heroing Wrong all around wrt security. My pet theory is every single baddie in SC knows Oliver is the Arrow, and knows everyone in his crew, and they just don't engage for fear the Cuckoo Crazy Billionaire will go back to killing their minions.

 

Yeah, I don't really take the security stuff too seriously. If they were as tight as they should be, most of the things that befall them never would, and we wouldn't have a show. It's one of the things that I don't mind handwaving because their ineptness in this department amuses and entertains me.

 

The open comms thing is an issue though. I hope it comes into play at some point in the future, and I'm wondering if Oliver just didn't tell Felicity about it because everything after happened so quickly and it might've slipped his mind? Or did he tell her and she fixed it? Or did they just have a weakness in the comms that one time so Sara's presence would be explained and she could be seen by Oliver and give him her sage "we need people in our lives who don't wear one" speech before she died? I don't mind there being lapses like that - Felicity's good, but she can make mistakes. Them calling each other by their real names on the comms is stupid though. I understood them doing it at first, because it's a rookie mistake you make when you don't have the team details ironed out yet. Three years into it, they should be smarter about things. 

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. Sara's warning about the comms seemed like such a PAY ATTENTION, THIS IS IMPORTANT moment, and then nothing came out of it so far. Same with the hidden message in the picture thing. I keep hoping they'll address it, but at the same time, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they just forgot about it.

 

The funniest part for me about Arrow's security measures screw ups is that Smallville is basically the most mockable TV show of all time, but even them got this right. Everyone had codenames -- it's actually a great episode if anyone is willing [610 "Justice"] -- SV!Oliver gives out codenames to everyone in that episode, and they stick 'til the end of the show [Clark was Boyscout until the very last panel of the Smallville comics, even], and they were usually pretty good at using codenames only on comms. And Watchtower -- the building, not Chloe -- was super duper secured. [ETA: this came out wrong. Chloe was also super duper secured to PARANOID LEVELS. Hee!] The elevator scanned everyone who got in, and the building shut down completely in case of breach.

Edited December 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[writersblock51]

The codenames and the comms is a major sticking point with me as well - and even more so once Sara mentioned the vulnerability of the comms to Oliver.

[manbearpig]

The security thing is ridiculous, especially now that the Arrow cave has surpassed Laurel's apartment as the easiest place to break into ever.

[apinknightmare]

The codenames and the comms is a major sticking point with me as well - and even more so once Sara mentioned the vulnerability of the comms to Oliver.

 

It's probably going to come out that Oliver forgot to tell Felicity because baby Diggle came right after, then he broke things off with Felicity/had a mind-blowing last first kiss (LMAO), got contacted by Barry, and then the next morning he was hit with the stupidity of Laurel dragging Sara's corpse down into the foundry and the grief of the utter senselessness of her death.

 

He'll remember that Sara told him about the comm issue once someone has traced them and found out who they are (Ray, maybe) or found them and hurt someone because of it (Felicity or Diggle), so we can reach MANPAIN LEVEL 10 because GUILT. 

[wonderwall]

My reaction to season 3 of Arrow explained in 1 GIF:

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by wonderwall

[TanyaKay]

For 6 and half episodes this season, Oliver was wallowing in manpain, then he had a bit of respite in Central City and he smiled a bit, then came episode 8 where he tried to wallow in mainpain but Barry would not let him - the episode ended on a positive note.

Next we have mid season finale where shit is going to hit the fan and then Oliver would do a disappearing act - my question is: would the EPs continue with his manpain arc in the episodes to follow? That man could really do with a break from this much sadness. People should randomly hug him on the show.

For 6 and half episodes this season, Oliver was wallowing in manpain, then he had a bit of respite in Central City and he smiled a bit, then came episode 8 where he tried to wallow in mainpain but Barry would not let him - the episode ended on a positive note.

Next we have mid season finale where shit is going to hit the fan and then Oliver would do a disappearing act - my question is: would the EPs continue with his manpain arc in the episodes to follow? That man could really do with a break from this much sadness. People should randomly hug him on the show.

[statsgirl]

Forget Oliver, I could use a break from this much sadness!  That's another reason why the crossover episodes were so good.

Edited December 7, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I find it hilarious that my sister-in-law -- a person who doesn't get into TV very often and is the type of person who always tells me "It's just a show" when I get a wee bit too excited about something -- just talked about Laurel and how much of a failure her character is for about 20 minutes on the phone :p I wonder if this is how a lot of the casual viewers feel because the more people I talk to who watch Arrow and aren't present on boards like these/tumblr/facebook the more I learn that Laurel isn't a loved character even outside the internet. 

 

For example, I had dinner with a friend a couple of days ago and we started talking about the shows we've been watching, I brought up Arrow and she got excited about it and asked me if I was up to date and then proceeded to tell me how she hated how Sara was the one to die and how she wanted it to be Laurel instead. It's just funny to me. I was laughing so much :p 

[Genki]

I find it hilarious that my sister-in-law -- a person who doesn't get into TV very often and is the type of person who always tells me "It's just a show" when I get a wee bit too excited about something -- just talked about Laurel and how much of a failure her character is for about 20 minutes on the phone :p I wonder if this is how a lot of the casual viewers feel because the more people I talk to who watch Arrow and aren't present on boards like these/tumblr/facebook the more I learn that Laurel isn't a loved character even outside the internet. 

 

For example, I had dinner with a friend a couple of days ago and we started talking about the shows we've been watching, I brought up Arrow and she got excited about it and asked me if I was up to date and then proceeded to tell me how she hated how Sara was the one to die and how she wanted it to be Laurel instead. It's just funny to me. I was laughing so much :p 

 

I don't think any of my Arrow watching friends are Laurel fans, I'm fairly sure most are less active than me and I'm a bit of a lurker.

Even ones that I may have made watch only 1 - 3 episodes did not connect with her character or KC.

[Sakura12]

My mother hates Laurel and she's never been vocal about hating a character on any show she watches. I kept telling her Laurel's BC in the comics and she said that's may be so but on this show they haven't shown anything that points toward Laurel being anything important. She was completely shocked when they killed Sara off and still thinks she's alive. That was coming from a casual viewer that only watches shows for entertainment value. 

 

She still watches the show because she loves Barrowman and she knows I don't watch the show anymore but keeps asking me if he's going to have a storyline soon because she's getting bored with the show.  

[MostlyC]

Please keep your bitterness posts to your own personal bitterness, not someone else's.  Second hand bitterness is unverified and therefore unreliable bitterness.  If your mother/daughter/friend's roommate/cousin/2nd grade teacher/Yoda really want to talk about their bitterness here, they can create an account and post to their bitter heart's content. 

 

Also no need repeat your bitterness if you've posted it already.  Second verse should not be same as the first.

 

Now I'm bitter because I've used the word bitterness or bitter 8 times in one post. Time to look for some synonyms. 

[HighHopes]

I'm bitter because instead the show using Caity Lotz's abilities to do her own stunts we now have Katie Cassidy requiring her own stunt double for more and more scenes. (Which is probably slowing down production and costing the show money. Having an actress who not only can act but can do the stunts probably means quicker filming and less walking through each scene...). This bitterness was brought on by a gifset I just saw on tumblr.. 

 

  

 

It's more of Lotz's dancing abilities, but I bet you the stunt team loved being able to film scenes with SA and CL where the actors could also do their own stunts. 

[loki567]

Well, maybe they can hire CL as KC's stunt-double (kidding).  

[writersblock51]

I'm bitter that this show can't  - or won't - have enough faith in the characters to leave the shadows of Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy. The show is definitely falling in with the theory that the Green Arrow is Batman-Lite.

 

The show has shown enough signs of being its own story but the pull of Batman, especially Nolan's version, seems too strong for the EPs to resist.

Edited December 8, 2014 by writersblock51

[insubordination]

Isn't Green Arrow supposed to be funny, charming, a womanizer and left-leaning? That's what I have read anyway.  He's so different from SV Arrow. I like SAmell, and I do like Oliver (75% of the time) and want him to win,  but enough with the constant misery.

[loki567]

I don't know, I feel like it's a little late in the game to be complaining about the show's tone. Especially since the early episodes were a lot darker with Oliver running around murdering random security guards and no Team Arrow to act as Oliver's conscience. And I'd say this season feels lighter than me to the back-half of season two with Moira's murder, Oliver spending multiple episodes (at least it felt like it) considering whether or not to give himself over to Slade, and all the mirakura drama.

[Password]

Isn't Green Arrow supposed to be funny, charming, a womanizer and left-leaning? That's what I have read anyway. He's so different from SV Arrow. I like SAmell, and I do like Oliver (75% of the time) and want him to win, but enough with the constant misery.

I actually find it really strange how far away from normal comics Oliver Queen, the show is. He's very much Batman. I mean if the comics didn't really have much to go on in terms of personality and character I would understand them rejigging it but, GA from what I've heard is very pro using his money to help the city, running for mayor and ish like that.

The first half of season 2 may have gone down that road because he decided to take over QC, but the second half seemingly went a completely different route. I mean I'm pretty sure Ray will end up being the mayor now with all his philanthropic ways.

I'm extremely curious about how Oliver will get QC back, and what he'll do with it. I mean he wanted it back because it was his family's legacy, and everyone at the company is his family, but what were his plans for it? I know Oliver has a way to go before he's GA but maybe hints here and there would be nice.

Anyone have ideas?

[tv echo]

I don't want this show's Green Arrow to be a womanizer.  Oliver was a womanizer before the island, so for him to become a womanizer again would be a regression.  As he slowly recovers his emotional health, I think he'll lighten up.

 

I couldn't care less about the comics.  I'm watching the TV show and want the TV show to make sense on its own.

Edited December 8, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

That's fair enough, and I agree with Oliver not being a philanderer. But I do wonder at the other characteristics that make him comic Oliver, because the Oliver we have, bless his heart, is very Batman-y.

[dtissagirl]

Imo 2A was the nearest they got to the tone of the GA comics, but I think when they got green lighted for Flash they realized that, well, GA and Flash are actually similar in tone in the comics, and you can't have that on tv because then it's the same show. So Arrow got turned into Batman again for contrasting reasons.

I actually understand using Ra's as a villain on Arrow, because he's a pretty fucking good strategist, and that's the kind of foil that I think works best for a non-superpowered hero. But they still could be doing it without it blatantly being based on Batman stories. I mean, Guggenheim said in an interview "if you're familiar with the Batman comics, you're gonna love it." NO, CLUELESS DUDE. NO. If I'm familiar with Bats, I want you to do SOMETHING ELSE THAT I DON'T ALREADY KNOW.

Ugh. So much bitterness, so little time.

[Sakura12]

If I wanted to see Batman, I'd watch Batman. Are they that lazy they can't invent their own stories, they have to copy something that was just done a few years ago? Of course if we are going with that, then on this show they killed Catwoman and left Rachel Dawes alive and are now trying to make her into a insta-hero. So I guess they are taking everything from the Nolan Batman verse and making it 10 times worse. 

[tv echo]

They don't have time to invent their own stories.  They're too busy working on spin-offs and developing their own DC tv-verse.  So they copy from Nolan's Batman trilogy, and they introduce a lot of new superheroes with quick journeys to hero-hood so they can copy from the comics. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Got hit with bitterness while thinking about Dinah Lance. First of all, I have LOVED Alex Kingston from the moment I saw her on screen in "Moll Flanders." I've followed her on various series (ER, Doctor Who, etc.) and was thrilled when I heard she was going to be on "Arrow." But Dinah is just such a meh character to me. There's nothing about her that interests me. I don't find myself looking forward to her interactions with her family (probably because except for Quentin I have no use for the family). And I hate that because this is an actress I love watching.

[Sakura12]

DC keeps thinking they are going to beat Marvel or something. But they are never going to manage that if they don't start caring about the characters in their shows/movies instead of just wanting to make more of them.

 

Yeah, they are winning in the tv verse right now, however I think this season AoS has been having better character development and I'm looking forward to Agent Carter. While I don't care at all about watching a show about Ray Palmer or Laurel's Black Canary.

 

ETA: Agreed on Alex Kingston, why did they hire her for such a thankless and useless role? I thought she was going to have the secret of being a vigilante in her youth. But nothing. Why didn't they do anything with her only storyline in season 1? She thought Sara was alive, then she turned out to be alive and they barely interacted, now she's dead and doesn't know about it. What the hell kind of writing is that? 

 

It seems she was just there for scenery for Sci-Fi fans. Which is kind of a disservice to the actor. 

Edited December 8, 2014 by Sakura12

[writersblock51]

Plus, they straightened Alex Kingston's hair. So Bitter.

[icandigit]

I'm really confused by all the batmaness  of it all. I assumed the show would have more of a story to draw from being that there are Green Arrow stories. I felt like, more than most show I watch, it would take a while to run out of ideas. Or have to steal them from other characters. I can't say much about Oliver's  trajectory. They don't deserve it, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that Oliver is headed in a more green direction. I can't really call them out on that till the last season airs.

[Danny Franks]

Isn't Green Arrow supposed to be funny, charming, a womanizer and left-leaning? That's what I have read anyway.  He's so different from SV Arrow. I like SAmell, and I do like Oliver (75% of the time) and want him to win,  but enough with the constant misery.

 

That's definitely comic book Oliver Queen. But the producers of this show didn't want that character, they wanted Batman. Honestly, I think they struck a decent balance with Oliver in the first two seasons. His recovery from all the mental trauma was slow, but discernible. You could see him improving and loosening up and finding more than just his mission to please him.

 

Then this season, it seems like they decided they wanted him to regress because that's the only way their story would work (hey look! Writing to plot instead of characters again). So he's miserable and angsty and 'I can't be happy so look at my woobie face'. Pretty boring, if that's all you're getting.

 

I agree with the view that those in charge see this show as more of a facilitator for this shared TV universe they want to create, than a show in its own right. And that's a shame, and a huge disservice to the actors and junior writers and all the crew, who probably work their backsides off every day, only to find out that the showrunners are too busy creaming their pants over the latest character DC tossed their way, and how said character will work in this universe. Meanwhile, it seems like they get bored of those characters almost as quickly as they get excited by them. Huntress? Blood? Shado? All came in with a big splash and were either forgotten about or sacrificed to enable yet more new characters that they were momentarily excited about.

 

If this show gets to a fifth season, that Arrow Cave will be the most packed building in the whole of Starling City. There will be more people in there than in the club above their heads.

[Starfish35]

For some reason I've been sitting here thinking about Laurel and Sara's death this morning - have no idea why. But ok. Even if I accept she's in shock and isn't really thinking clearly beyond needing to protect her father and Sara's identity as the Canary (that's actually kind of feasible to me), why in the world didn't she call Oliver? Even in shock, what possessed her to drag her sister's body down to the Arrow cave and sit there with her for hours without contacting anyone? And from an outside viewpoint, what plot reason (which is usually the reason characters do stupid things) was possibly served by that? Am I missing something here?

And thinking beyond that, what is the plot reason for keeping Sara's death a long running secret from Quentin beyond Draaaama for Laurel? I know, his heart, but I'm thinking that was more manufactured to give Laurel a reason not to tell him than the other way around.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Starfish35