Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Morrigan2575]

So you'd expect them to marry off Felicity to a guy who is old enough to be her father, just to screw over fans and get their ultimate GA/BC pairing which they LOVE unconditionally above all things including ratings and The Flash?  Because they already introduced Ronnie Raymond on The Flash and he's probably the same age, maybe even a year or two older then Felicity.

[tv echo]

So you'd expect them to marry off Felicity to a guy who is old enough to be her father, just to screw over fans and get their ultimate GA/BC pairing which they LOVE unconditionally above all things including ratings and The Flash?  Because they already introduced Ronnie Raymond on The Flash and he's probably the same age, maybe even a year or two older then Felicity.

Good point.  The EPs would probably have to change the name to Ed Something Else and make him a young reporter.

[looptab]

Oh sure! I knew about that but I didn't know the actual name lol thank you :)

[Morrigan2575]

Good point.  The EPs would probably have to change the name to Ed Something Else and make him a young reporter.

That wasn't my point at all...

[apinknightmare]

I'm not worried about someone else being brought in when Ray doesn't "work." Ray isn't supposed to work, that's the whole point of him. He's the perfect-on-paper guy Felicity's going to realize she doesn't want. He's around to propel Oliver to action regarding Felicity and Queen Consolidated (and to be another superhero plaything for the writers).

Edited November 14, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Exactly.  They even said it in the Flash episode, that Barry and Felicity are perfect for each other but they both love other people.  Ray will be a perfect version of Oliver but it's the real one Felicity wants.  As bitter as I am at the screentime Laurel gets on her road to becoming the Black Canary, I think they really are going with Olicity for the next couple of seasons at least.

 

 

 

And then in odd-numbered episodes, they ignore the whodunit, and go to Corto Maltese, or deal with Felicity's douchey ass ex-boyfriend. From the promos, 307 looks like it's keeping up with the pattern as well. Here's hoping the Flash crossover breaks it!

What's even more frustrating is that Sara's murder is supposed to be the main driving force for Laurel... but Laurel's not investigating her murder.

That reminds me of the Star Trek movies. For some reason, only the even numbered ones were good.

 

 

What's even more frustrating is that Sara's murder is supposed to be the main driving force for Laurel... but Laurel's not investigating her murder.

I really don't get it with Sara's murder.  It seems like it's just a plot to get Laurel into vigilante costume instead of being a good DA, and to stall Olicity. Other than that, it's had less purpose than the restaurant bombing in The Calm.

 

The EPs constantly talking about Sara's murder driving the season seems more excuse than rational.

Edited November 14, 2014 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

Diggle/Felicity. Where is this friendship? Diggle is the guy who told Felicity she was irreplaceable and comforted her. (TOD - One of the only things I liked about the episode was Diggle/Felicity). He played her personal bodyguard when Slade made threats. They have such a solid, wonderful friendship; One of the best on the show. Where was his reaction to Oliver carrying a bloody unconscious Felicity? Why did he not make a single move to comfort Felicity in 'Sara'?

 

Diggle. I love this guy. I understand that his perspective has changed; I even get him avoiding the field. But that doesn't explain how he is suddenly so comfortable naming his daughter Sara or telling Oliver to kill again or to cut off a Team mate.

 

We are six episodes in and Laurel has not had a decent conversation with Diggle, Roy or Felicity. We are supposed to believe she has been helping Team Arrow for months prior to 301 and yet there is nothing to suggest she has developed any type of friendship. I can't understand why the show runners only have Laurel asking for 'flavors' from Felicity. Or why we have scenes where she doesn't acknowledge anyone but Oliver. At this point, I don't want to see a friendship because I wouldn't buy it.

 

I hate that we are spending years on Oliver becoming the Green Arrow. That we were told/shown Sara becoming the Canary (again years) and Laurel will be the Black Canary in half a season. They can talk about it not being instant but compared to the other heroes. Its instant. And there is no narrative reason for Laurel to be the Black Canary. From an overall perspective: They want the Black Canary to be a partner of Green Arrow, but Oliver already has Diggle and Roy as partners and tactical. They wanted Black Canary to be a love interest, but she has been replaced as the Love Interest by Felicity. Why does the show need for Laurel to become the Black Canary? The idea that she becomes the Black Canary to avenge/honor her sister doesn't ring true because the audience knows that Sara would never want that for Laurel. We don't even know why she would suddenly turn away for the law because she didn't even try the law. 

 

I'm so annoyed with this show right now.

[AnyoneButYou]

Diggle/Felicity is what I miss the most. They're the only reason I started watching the show to begin with. I gave up after the first two episodes in Season 1 and gave it another chance after my boyfriend kept telling me that I'd like it better because of Diggle and Felicity.

 

I can only think of two times that they have even conversed this season. Once was over the phone in Corto Maltese and the other was when Felicity told Diggle to hand over Baby Sara to Mama Smoak. Neither of those interactions were exactly enough to keep me interested in continuing the agony of watching this season. I'll admit that I've only been skimming through episodes and giving my fast-forward button a workout. So, maybe I've missed some stuff, but I've been keeping up with the show here and on Twitter, and it doesn't sound like I have.

 

I just really, really miss Original Team Arrow, period. I feel like I can get through any episode if we got at least a scene of them in every episode, but it feels like Original Team Arrow was dead and buried along  with Sara (who I also really, really miss).

[olicityfan25]

The EPs have really failed this show in the most obvious cases.

[tv echo]

I'm really sick of the sloppiness and lack of thought on the part of the Arrow EPs, writers and production team this season.  Just a few examples (I'm sure there's more):  

 

You've got sloppy story tracking where Sara's death and burial under her old grave headstone (still standing!) has to be this big secret, which would only make sense if everyone in the city still thought that Sara had died 7 years ago - the EPs apparently forgot about the big welcome home party thrown for Sara last season. 

 

You've got the Arrowcave still located in the basement of Verdant even though Oliver no longer owns the foundry, thereby exposing them all to the risk of discovery.

 

You've got Laurel being made the Acting DA even though she's only been with the DA's Office about a year.  Either all of the more senior ADAs were killed by Deathstroke's army last season, or Quentin used his pull as Police Captain to move Laurel to the head of the line.  If the former, then the DA's Office would consist of exactly two lawyers - the DA and Laurel - and Laurel would be way too busy to act as a vigilante or interact with Team Arrow.  If the latter, that doesn't say much for Quentin.

 

You've got sloppy dialogue like "We used to date" which would greatly narrow the pool of possible identities for the Arrow.  There's also the line "My sister's dead, and I'm the only one who knows", which - in this alternate universe of Season 3 where people still thought Sara had died 7 years ago - should've led to Ted saying something like "Wait, I thought your sister died awhile ago?  Everyone knows that." 

 

You've got Ted Grant who apparently doesn't recognize Laurel when he meets her - even though he's lived in Starling City a long time, would've heard or seen the news about the Queen/Lance deaths and Oliver's televised return, used to be a vigilante in the Glades and likely knew a lot of people who died there, and would've followed Moira Queen's trial closely. 

 

You've got out-of-character dialogue about abandoning Roy coming out of the mouth of military vet Diggle. 

 

You've got Roy suddenly super proficient with a bow and arrow after only six or so months of training.  And now there's going to be

Laurel becoming the new Black Canary, in a stylish though impractically designed costume, after only a few months of boxing lessons (and whatever self-defense lessons she had before which didn't seem to help her much the past 2 seasons), plus handling a black stick weapon with expert ease, I'm guessing.  Ted Grant should put out a new advertisement: "Wildcat Gym - Take Boxing Lessons from Me and You Can Become a Superhero in Six Months!"

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by tv echo

[HighHopes]

I'm extremely bitter because of Marc Guggenheim. First we have the interview that explains the reason Sara was buried in her old grave is because the world thinks she died 6 years ago and then today he says the world knew she was alive because of the party in 2x06 (like many pointed out to him). 

 

 

The interview is here if anyone is interested. 

 

(My apologies if this should be in the media thread. As it's about bitterness I thought this would be the place to post it) 

[Morrigan2575]

Hah...I really wish entertainment "reporters" would act like real reporters instead of PR peeps and actually question these things. Sadly, it will never happen they because they fear losing access and getting blacklisted.

Aside: I wish reporters in general would act like real reporters...but that's a bitterness for another forum

Edited November 15, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I'm extremely bitter because of Marc Guggenheim. First we have the interview that explains the reason Sara was buried in her old grave is because the world thinks she died 6 years ago and then today he says the world knew she was alive because of the party in 2x06 (like many pointed out to him).

The interview is here if anyone is interested.

(My apologies if this should be in the media thread. As it's about bitterness I thought this would be the place to post it)

Arrow needs to hire a fan as a historian. Because clearly the EPs don't know their own story.

As a writer it makes me extremely bitter. They get paid for peddling shit while excellent writers I know aren't recognized for their stellar work.

[Chaser]

They wanted Sara's death to be a secret to alienate Laurel from her only family connection. To make her more bitter and more angry and to add another layer to honoring Sara (this great hero that no one will ever know). 

 

I don't think they forgot that they had brought Sara back from the dead, I just think they felt it would be a stronger story to tell this season so they ignored it.

 

Its a plot device. I'm worried its going to be a big problem because it hasn't been limited to just Laurel this season.

[catrox14]

Listening to interviews with SA he seems to know the history of the show better than most. I can only imagine how much bitterness he has buried because of the direction of his own show.

[Princess Vanellope]

Not only that, the welcome back party wasn't in 206. In 206 they were in Russia. Do they even watch their own show?

[quarks]

I consider this further proof that even the writers want to forget episode 214.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Not only that, the welcome back party wasn't in 206. In 206 they were in Russia. Do they even watch their own show?

 

They've proven time and again they don't.

[Morrigan2575]

They wanted Sara's death to be a secret to alienate Laurel from her only family connection. To make her more bitter and more angry and to add another layer to honoring Sara (this great hero that no one will ever know). 

 

I don't think they forgot that they had brought Sara back from the dead, I just think they felt it would be a stronger story to tell this season so they ignored it.

 

Its a plot device. I'm worried its going to be a big problem because it hasn't been limited to just Laurel this season.

I get that but what the person on twitter was pointing out is that in interviews around 302 the EPs used the excuse that everyone still thought Sara was dead so it was perfectly logical/acceptable ( and not at all a let's throw this character in the trash and pretend she ever existed as anything more then a plot device) explanation for burying her in her original empty grave. Then later they have Laurel say something like my sister's dead and no one knows about it...meaning to the rest of the world she was alive basically it's just lazy storytelling.

They were either too tone deaf or egomaniacal to realize how fans would react (or just didn't care since they actually threw that line in there about no one would know what a hero she was) so they gave a BS reason when confronted with the reality of their action...oh it was OK because everyone thought Sara died 6 years prior anyway. ..this was in no way an insult to the character or her fans. However, now they're using the secret as a crutch, Laurel is angry and alone because she has this huge secret and it's eating her up inside. ..except of course the whole reason she has this secret is because she chose to lie, conceal Sara's death, not seak justice but vengence and dump her sister in any empty grave.

It's just bad/lazy/insulating IMO. They either think the audience is too stupid to see what's going on or goldfish.

[Chaser]

Oh I totally get its lazy and when you get called out on it by the fans and still deny it, its insulting. Just own up to it at this point. I'd be much more tolerant if they were just like 'Oops, my bad.' Or if they owned up to the fact its just a plot toy. At least its honest.

 

I just don't think they care. I think they assume that audiences have long term memory loss. Which is not typically the case in more cult shows like Arrow.

 

I do wish someone had asked SA about it. I would be interested in his answer on the topic.

[Morrigan2575]

Yep, goldfish or the dog from Up...squirrel!

[TanyaKay]

Oh I totally get its lazy and when you get called out on it by the fans and still deny it, its insulting. Just own up to it at this point. I'd be much more tolerant if they were just like 'Oops, my bad.' Or if they owned up to the fact its just a plot toy. At least its honest.

 

I just don't think they care. I think they assume that audiences have long term memory loss. Which is not typically the case in more cult shows like Arrow.

 

I do wish someone had asked SA about it. I would be interested in his answer on the topic.

 

His answer on Campea's after show were the regular PR lip service, I don't think he will actually come up with authentic answers if asked.

Honestly, it is not even his responsibility to respond to these questions, he is just the lead actor. Unless they make him a co-producer, he is not responsible for answering any of the questions about crazy stupid plot lines that the producers come up with.

[statsgirl]

Speaking of SA's interview on the After show, I'm bitter that he said Oliver still has four million dollars, but Felicity had to work low-level sales at Tech Village.  It makes Oliver a real douche not to support her since he was the reason she lost her job at QC.

 

I just don't think they care. I think they assume that audiences have long term memory loss. Which is not typically the case in more cult shows like Arrow.

 

Which they should know as they are so proud of coming from the comic book fandom themselves.

[apinknightmare]

Speaking of SA's interview on the After show, I'm bitter that he said Oliver still has four million dollars, but Felicity had to work low-level sales at Tech Village. It makes Oliver a real douche not to support her since he was the reason she lost her job at QC.

Which they should know as they are so proud of coming from the comic book fandom themselves.

Even if he had offered to support her, Felicity never would've allowed it. What does seem douchey is Oliver letting her buy him a bed if he had $4 million dollars laying around.

This show, I swear.

Edited November 15, 2014 by apinknightmare

[icandigit]

 

Not only that, the welcome back party wasn't in 206. In 206 they were in Russia. Do they even watch their own show?

 

 

Two things that frustrate me are incompetence combined with arrogance. That's the thing that annoys me the most about what is happening with this show.

[catrox14]

I took that bed buying thing as a joke.  I didn't think she actually bought him an actual bed.

[catrox14]

I know SA has a 6 year contract but I wonder if he is angling for a way out. If I was him and saw that the show seemed to be moving towards being about Black Canary instead of Oliver Queen, I'd be pretty pissed off. It's almost like he's an afterthought in his own show right now. At least that is how it feels to this viewer.  He might be getting more lines but the stories are not really about him at this point other than Corto Maltese and the Calm and even Corto Maltese was really about Malcolm and Thea. 

[apinknightmare]

I took that bed buying thing as a joke.  I didn't think she actually bought him an actual bed.

 

I don't think it was a joke. Especially since he went on to tell Diggle that he couldn't afford anything just two minutes later.

I know SA has a 6 year contract but I wonder if he is angling for a way out. If I was him and saw that the show seemed to be moving towards being about Black Canary instead of Oliver Queen, I'd be pretty pissed off. It's almost like he's an afterthought in his own show right now. At least that is how it feels to this viewer.  He might be getting more lines but the stories are not really about him at this point other than Corto Maltese and the Calm and even Corto Maltese was really about Malcolm and Thea. 

 

No way. He gets tons of time off for the same salary, and he's still the lead of the show. Plus, there's the whole second half of the season to consider - hopefully after they have Laurel in costume and Sara's murder solved she'll fade back a bit and Oliver can take center stage again, especially since SA said the growing number of superheroes at the end of the season would play into Oliver's mindset (or however it was phrased).

[statsgirl]

I think she did buy the bed.  It would be their heavy-handed way of showing that Oliver is still not interested in creature comforts and that Felicity needs to take care of him.  I hope he has regrets every time he sleeps in it.

 

Even if he had offered to support her, Felicity never would've allowed it. What does seem douchey is Oliver letting her buy him a bed if he had $4 million dollars laying around.

 

 

Felicity was working for him on Team Arrow.  Wouldn't that merit something?

To be honest, Oliver would have done better to pay Felicity so she could spend the time prepping him to be a more viable CEO so he could take over QC than working at Buy More.

 

I wonder if he paid Diggle and Roy. If he paid them because they're guys and didn't pay Felicity, we're back to 1970 when Lou Grant paid Mary Richards less because she's a woman and didn't need the money like a man does.

 

ETA:

 

I don't think it was a joke. Especially since he went on to tell Diggle that he couldn't afford anything just two minutes later.

Yeah. While it's touching he hand made something for the baby, it does put the lie to what SA said.

Edited November 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[Hipkarma]

I took that bed buying thing as a joke.  I didn't think she actually bought him an actual bed.

 

 

I don't think it was a joke. Especially since he went on to tell Diggle that he couldn't afford anything just two minutes later.

 

It is this kind of inconsistency, emphasised by the whole mixing 2.06 with 2.14 that really makes me want to SMH. With $4M lying around he had to wait until Thea offered to share an (admittedly prime) apartment funded by MM? Please. If I kept watching (apart from the crossover which I will watch) I'd be giving them permission to just insult my intelligence some more.

 

There's willing suspension of disbelief and then there's "I really need more alcohol before I can even vaguely accept this steaming, stenching pile." 

 

Hence YT for select scenes for me.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Hipkarma

[MostlyC]

This is the bitterness thread where we talk about things that have already happened on the show- speculation of actors' mindsets, choices, or resume belongs in Behind the Scenes, or the speculation thread.  I have moved the posts, but any other that are off topic will be deleted.

 

I also wanted personally note that I recognize and appreciate how many of you have modified your behavior re: antipathy of Laurel.  Keep it up!

[fantique]

I am frustrated with how vague things that should be established with this show.

I'm still confused about that whole bed situation. Because I could have sworn that their dialogue was Felicity saying she bought him flowers because he lives down there, he responds with "you should've bought me a bed" and she says "You sleep on the floor". Because now it seems canon she bought him a bed. Also I know people said that's what closed caption had but in my experience it has not exactly been super reliable. And the fact that people had to turn on the CC to get what's happening is also a problem.

I also think SA saying Oliver has like 4 mil now just means that broke for a billionaire is still enough to keep the Arrow operation running and I think that's where that money is going. The fact that we need him saying that in an interview is annoying. It should have been explained before since there are multiple possible scenarios. That's a plot hole.

[apinknightmare]

I am frustrated with how vague things that should be established with this show.

I'm still confused about that whole bed situation. Because I could have sworn that their dialogue was Felicity saying she bought him flowers because he lives down there, he responds with "you should've bought me a bed" and she says "You sleep on the floor". Because now it seems canon she bought him a bed. Also I know people said that's what closed caption had but in my experience it has not exactly been super reliable. And the fact that people had to turn on the CC to get what's happening is also a problem.

 

At first I thought he said "you should've bought me a bed," but he does actually say "I let you buy me a bed." They show the bed in the long shot of Felicity at her computers at the beginning of the show. It is an issue that sometimes the dialog is difficult to understand, and it's also an issue that they overlook small things like the fact that Oliver HAD a bed down there in season 2. But I guess I can handwave that a mirakudude jumped on it until the springs broke or...something.

[JenMcSnark]

The @CW_Arrow twitter handle might have regretted tweeting me to let me know about the contest...

I figured I might as well speak my mind while someone possibly was paying attention.  lol!

Edited November 16, 2014 by JenMcSnark

[wonderwall]

I think having Oliver and Laurel having equal stories from the beginning could have worked. But Laurel's story would have needed to have been written very differently from the very beginning to do that, so much so that she would really be a completely different character than she is now. You can't start her story seven years behind Oliver's and expect them to have equal weight. It just doesn't work. For them to be equals, they need to be at similar places in their journey, and they're not, not even close.

You're right, for them to be equals, they need to be at similar places in their journeys otherwise the whole series would've been incredibly disjointed and it would be difficult to follow and usually the one who's lagging suffers because their journey is sort of 'been there done that'. Oliver and Laurel were always on different pages which is why I don't think Laurel was ever supposed to have equal footing with Oliver in regards to arcs/storytelling.

 

I actually think this is what they're trying to do now. Put Laurel on equal footing with Oliver's story and it's coming off extremely disjointed and characters are essentially suffering because of it. In order for Laurel to be likable or relevant Oliver apparently has to be a douche, Diggle has to be OOC/shoved into the background, Felicity has to be incompetent/not there/OOC.

 

It's just frustrating. It's not that I have a problem with Laurel's character right now, I have more of a problem with how the writers are trying to integrate Laurel into the A-plot which is incredibly obvious to see how desperate they're trying to make her character work. I wouldn't mind them doing this if it didn't affect the characters I actually love, but it IS and it BOTHERS me. 

 

To me, Arrow was always meant to be about ONE hero's journey, and that journey belongs to Oliver. Now they're trying to take on 2 hero's journeys by creating BC and now Oliver's journey is suffering because of it. He seriously had some major character regression in the last episode and it was NOT fun to watch. Laurel just makes Oliver so unlikable it's not even funny. What's funny is that the people who DO make Oliver likable are currently being shoved into the background in terms of team interaction partly to serve Laurel's journey. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by wonderwall

[Hipkarma]

Still bitter about being force fed a 'Black' Canary by the writers and EPs when we don't have a 'Green' Arrow yet.

[Password]

For me the crux of the problem is the substitution of characters for certain storylines. I wouldn't mind Laurel's journey because I don't pay it a particular amount of attention, except for the fact that I miss Diggle and Felicity in the foundry and interacting. Diggle is...what is Diggle doing? Felicity is playing house with Ray and Oliver is having fun times with Laurel and Ted. They're storylines I don't care for, therefore having to sit and watch Laurel's journey is tedious. Roy's story isn't particularly compelling although I hear Roliver was interesting this episode. Thea isn't going dark, which is actually something I've come to hope for, and Malcolm is brilliant as usual but I don't watch for him.

Giving me Laurel's story is fine and good, but I certainly don't watch for her therefore I'm happy to skip Laurel centred episodes. Now it's causing a bitterness in me. I don't normally skip episodes because I love this show, but if the story doesn't interest me I'd rather hang out on this forum and bitch about it.

[statsgirl]

 

It's not that I have a problem with Laurel's character right now, I have more of a problem with how the writers are trying to integrate Laurel into the A-plot which is incredibly obvious to see how desperate they're trying to make her character work. I wouldn't mind them doing this if it didn't affect the characters I actually love, but it IS and it BOTHERS me.

 

Guilty was supposed to be Roy's big episode with the cop-killing reveal and Oliver not abandoning him.  What it worked out to was just over two minutes with Felicity and three plus with Oliver, half of which was the candle scene, because the episode ended up being all about Laurel. A total of less than six minutes in an episode that was supposed to be about his growth.  Roy's story had even less time in Corto Maltese because that was about Laurel's AA boyfriend battering along with Thea and Malcolm.  The B plot in Guilty and not even the C plot in Corto Maltese.

 

Roy isn't a favorite of mine but I'm really bitter on his behalf.  It could have been a good story.

 

If they're going to do Laurel becoming the BC, I wish they would have episodes about her and separately episodes about Team Arrow so I could skip the Laurel ones entirely, and the other characters would have enough time for their stories.  Of course, they're not going to do it precisely for that reason -- that even if only a fraction of viewers skipped the Laurel episodes, the ratings would still go down and they don't want that.

Edited November 16, 2014 by statsgirl

[Tangerine]

I'm bitter that we only saw Sara use the sonic device once. It was so cool and such a neat way to incorporate the Canary Cry into the more realistic world of Arrow.

[calliope1975]

In the Hopes and Fears thread, there is some discussion if killing Sara off was really that big of a mistake. For me, I am bummed to lose Sara, though I can't say I was hugely attached to her. My problem is what killing off Sara means for the show. It's like TIIC read every critic and fan critique and decided to not only focus on those problems but amplify them. OG Team Arrow is the best thing about the show? Let's break them up and have them behave wildly out of character. The tone is too dark at times and takes itself too seriously? Let's repeatedly show a woman getting brutally killed over and over again. Also, let's lose all the humor and fun of being a superhero show. Olicity is one of the most praised ships that's taken on its own life? Break 'em up. Isolate Felicity with a guy we readily call a stalker. Laurel's one of our most divisive characters and there are many who don't want her to become BC. Amp up her screen time, kill off the competition, but don't make her any more competent. We have to have some consistency. 

 

I am sad this is what the show has become. I am bitter I take it so seriously, and I have no real faith it'll get better. A big red flag for me is when I have to be told to just wait, it'll get better. Why isn't it better now? Gotham did the same thing by saying just wait until episode 7; it's really good. Why should I have to sit through 6 episodes of mediocrity to maybe get a payoff? With Arrow, why do I have to wait until January for something to make sense. 

 

I will gladly take back everything I've said if there is some amazing payoff for Sara's death and every other choice they've made this season. Gladly. But I'm not holding my breath. 

[insubordination]

Actually, I think they're really consistent. They know what will genuinely piss off the viewers, and they go with it time and time again.

 

 

Let's repeatedly show a woman getting brutally killed

 

This is consistent too. Thea and Oliver  watching their mother turned into a shish-kebab really turns my stomach and it's almost as though they reveled in showing it over and over. Just show the reactions on the faces of her kids. That is enough.  And then there was Shado all kneeling and stuff. Vile!

 

 

Why should I have to sit through 6 episodes of mediocrity to maybe get a payoff?

 

I definitely won't. Skipped my first episode last week and will select carefully which ones I tune into. I'd say I'll be out by the end of the season.

[writersblock51]

The frequency of how many times key deaths are replayed on the show brings up an interesting question - and I don't have the answer. When I think of the key deaths, I have a fairly lengthy list. I think only certain ones have been replayed a lot, though.  Mind you, I'm trying to stick to what's actually been aired on the show. I've watched a lot/too many fan made videos which may skew some of the numbers. If anyone feels like correcting me, fine.

 

Robert Queen - I think a couple of times in S1, maybe once each season after that so far

Sara Season 1, Gambit - many times (I think at least 3-4 in S1)

Yao Fei - a couple of times in S1 (don't think we've seen it since S1)

Tommy - at least 4 times in S2 (again, maybe more or less, lots of fanvids)

Malcolm - once, as it happened. Have we seen it again since?

Slade (the arrow in the eye flashback) - twice?

Sebastian Blood - once

Isabel - once but the hit by the van scene, a couple of times, I think (also many times in fanvids)

Moira - at least 4 times (plus even more replays of Oliver and Thea's reactions)

Shado - at least 4 - 5 times

Ivo - maybe twice?  I think just once but I'm not sure

Sara Season 2, reshot the Gambit scenes - 2 -3 times

Sara Season 2, freighter - once, maybe twice

Sara Season 3 - at least 5 times

 

Now, I get that Sara has 'died' 3 times but it's a disturbing pattern that the deaths of 3 main females (Shado, Moira and Sara - any season) have been shown far more often than anyone else.

 

I believe it's for impact on Oliver and, by extension, the fans. But it's a disturbing trend and, I'm afraid, one that highlights the EP/writers love of 'shock & awe' deaths of females.  I would look at the numbers above as an example how much this show loves fridging females to add to Oliver's manpain.  Slade didn't see Shado's death, he only came upon the scene once it was over with. Her death obviously impacted him but we never see her death scene play out when he thinks of her - just when he's cradling her body after it happened.

[dtissagirl]

I have no idea -- are previouslies something that comes from the show's post-production crew, or do the network/studio cut them and EPs have no say in it, like it is with promos?

[writersblock51]

That's a good point, dancingnancy. I thought the editing was up to the production staff? So that would include the EPs and possibly the director, from the litlte I know about production.  And that amount could fill a thimble.

[KirkB]

I don't even know that much, writersblock51, but I was under the impression the only thing the EP's aren't responsible for doing, or at least permitting, is the promos.

[dtissagirl]

I just remember Joss Whedon asking the WB to get rid of previouslies on the Buffy and Angel DVDs, because they spoiled surprises like guests stars returning and such, and he hated that. That's why I tend to think of them as a network thing. But I honestly don't know for sure.

[writersblock51]

Ah, if Whedon couldn't manage the previouslies, then I think the EPs on Arrow aren't involved either.

[quarks]

The previouslies and the promos are edited by the networks, not by the show, based on the footage the networks have. This is one reason why the promos don't always line up with what's seen in the episode.

 

That said, Whedon was constantly fighting with the WB about everything - the Wall Street Journal had a ton of fun reporting on that - so he might not be the best example for how much influence showrunners have on this sort of thing.

[dtissagirl]

Thanks for clearing that up, quarks!

 

I have no idea where to put this, but I'm bitter that the EPs give out BAD SPOILERS, so: weren't we supposed to find out who the new Mayor of Starling City was in 305? Did I miss it, or was it cut? And if they cut it, I'm wondering why share that tidbit as a spoiler in the first place, if it was not important enough to keep.

[MaddieBlu]

Thanks for clearing that up, quarks!

 

I have no idea where to put this, but I'm bitter that the EPs give out BAD SPOILERS, so: weren't we supposed to find out who the new Mayor of Starling City was in 305? Did I miss it, or was it cut? And if they cut it, I'm wondering why share that tidbit as a spoiler in the first place, if it was not important enough to keep.

I was wondering the same thing. I remember MG said we would find out in that episode but...NADA.