Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[statsgirl]

The ArrowWritersRoom tweeted "What are you doing Arrow50th?"  I'm bitter that the 50th episode is a big Laurel one.

[ban1o]

Uggh I just find Oliver protecting Merlyn so stupid. At least send him to jail and test out the "no prison can hold me" or let the people who want to kill him, kill him. I mean, he's a terrorist that killed so many people. It's just so contrived. Now Merlyn is just looming in Starling City under Oliver's protection? It's weird how they kill characters like Sara with a drop of a hat but find contrived reasons for people like Merlyn to live. Uggh. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by ban1o

[SmallScreenDiva]

Four episodes in and I'm really not liking the tone of this season. It's just so unrelentingly grim. Starting it off with a horrible death would do that. The thing is, I don't have faith that the EPs and writers are capable of writing a season-long (half-season?) interesting, engaging whodunit. They haven't engaged me so far with this "Who killed Sara" mystery. I'm sorry she died, she was an OK character, but I really don't care who killed her. And I have absolutely no faith in their storytelling abilities after the Mirakuru/Slade Wilson crap they put together last year.

[apinknightmare]

Four episodes in and I'm really not liking the tone of this season. It's just so unrelentingly grim. Starting it off with a horrible death would do that. The thing is, I don't have faith that the EPs and writers are capable of writing a season-long (half-season?) interesting, engaging whodunit. They haven't engaged me so far with this "Who killed Sara" mystery. I'm sorry she died, she was an OK character, but I really don't care who killed her. And I have absolutely no faith in their storytelling abilities after the Mirakuru/Slade Wilson crap they put together last year.

 

I'd like the whodunit better if they were following leads that weaved from episode to episode instead of following one trail and having it go cold, then following another and ruling them out. Everyone should be a suspect (and additional suspects should be added as they come about) until the team figures it out, otherwise it just seems choppy and kind of nonsensical. Like how this one seems to me right now.

[blixie]

I'm finding S3, it all plot and no character. Tons of shit happens, but no one is allowed to process it. A thing happens, and then ANOTHER thing happens, and the character spend more time explaining away the giant plot holes made by the thingses happening not making much sense, than on being able to check in with each other. There aren't any stakes I really care about here: Laurel's vengeance? Malcom's redemption? Sara died before I even got to enjoy her being around. How het up can I be about who specifically murdered her beyond: The Writers made it so, because they don't know how to write ANYTHING for Laurel, consistently from scene to scene much less from episode to episode.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I'd like the whodunit better if they were following leads that weaved from episode to episode instead of following one trail and having it go cold, then following another and ruling them out. Everyone should be a suspect (and additional suspects should be added as they come about) until the team figures it out, otherwise it just seems choppy and kind of nonsensical. Like how this one seems to me right now.

 

Exactly! Doesn't mean they can't have dead ends, but they have to find something that would propel them to the next lead in maybe the next ep, if they plan to keep this thread going from ep to ep. That's how mystery writers do it.

Edited October 30, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[Actionmage]

Uggh I just find Oliver protecting Merlyn so stupid.

 

 

The thing about Oliver protecting Merlyn that has me bummed? Oliver not asking Thea if she's down for Malcom to pay for Tommy and Robert. Moira's gone due to Slade (and Oliver's past.) Sara didn't seem to be anywhere in Thea's orbit at anytime. So why not get the Secrets out in the open and lay it down for Thea? Because the writers don't want to do that. Or at least not right now. ::eyeroll::

 

The only differences in how people around Thea are treating her is A) Roy is respecting her and going slow re-establishing a relationship and B) now Malcolm is lying to her, probably 'for her own good'/trying to be neutral for Oliver's protection/ giving more rope for Ollie to hang himself with/all of the above. Oliver needs to quit meeting in public places and bring Thea into the Cave where she reads him the riot act about still lying.

 

I will be bitterer if Malcolm is Thea's one and only backer.  She was very good at running Verdant, so keeping things so insular seems counter to telling more and better stories.

 

eta:

Exactly! Doesn't mean they can't have dead ends, but they have to find something that would propel them to the next lead in maybe the next ep, if they plan to keep this thread going from ep to ep. That's how mystery writers do it.

 

Right! It's like a downward, spiraling vortex of suspects- Plenty are listed, then you keep going back to hinky ones and eliminating others, going back to those left and eliminating yet more. We keep going from dead end to person of interest to red herring.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Actionmage

[chaos is welcome]

Oh man I am back for the second time in one day. I am so, so, soooo bitter that Quentin made a call to his dead daughters cell phone to tell her he loved her. That ripped my heart out, and I really could have used more than one line from felicity to make it better. Can we just tell the man already?

I am bitter that dig was ooc. I am sorry but the John Diggle they have been presenting us with in seasons 1 k2 would not encourage Oliver to let Nyssa kill his sisters dad. He knows how screwed up Oliver already is. That episode was pretty dang dark and I was really looking forward to finally seeing a dialog between Oliver and felicity in which he brought her up to date. But we had to have nyssa take back the jacket comment and say something nice to insta canary, so we got that instead.

I am bitter that because I don't think they have any interest in fixing the show I used to love.

[SmallScreenDiva]

What would they fix? They think they're doing such a bang-up job right now. *rolls eyes*

 

I'm usually a fairly optimistic person and TV viewer. But now I'm very scared of what they're going to do with Felicity's episode.

Edited October 30, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[NumberCruncher]

I'm usually a fairly optimistic person and TV viewer. But now I'm very scared of what they're going to do with Felicity's episode.

Right there with you. I haven't been nearly as down on the direction of the show as many other posters here have been but based on what we've gotten this season so far I'm terrified at what they could potentially do with Felicity's story.

[Ceylon5]

I'm bitter that the closest we've come to a genuine Team Arrow moment in weeks (or even all season) is Felicity writing a program that she says an idiot could run, and when Oliver tells Diggle this, Diggle says "I will try very hard not to take that personally".  We should note that Felicity was not actually present for this scene, however.  So bitter.

[Happy Harpy]

I want Laurel dead-dead-dead Sara dead, and I'm ready to make an exception to my "no more death-as-plot, no more female character death" policy. But Quentin already lost a daughter so he can't lose another one. So on top of everything else, Sara's demise became a kind of plot armor for her sister, and I hate this.

[Danny Franks]

I'm bitter that the closest we've come to a genuine Team Arrow moment in weeks (or even all season) is Felicity writing a program that she says an idiot could run, and when Oliver tells Diggle this, Diggle says "I will try very hard not to take that personally".  We should note that Felicity was not actually present for this scene, however.  So bitter.

 

Wouldn't that have been a nice moment if she just made an offhanded comment about designing the programme to be easy for idiots, prompting Oliver, Diggle and (why not?) Roy to size each other up, silently trying to figure out which of them she's talking about.

 

Or, even better, Oliver and Diggle trying to figure it out, then panning over to Roy cutting his own finger on an arrow because he's a clumsy oaf.

 

But why do you need Team Arrow moments when you can have Team Laurel (small team, I know) moments?

[yellowfred]

I'm bitter that they made Ra's al Ghul a boring white guy.

[blixie]

I'm big with hand waving and wanking things on tv shows, but I feel like every episode of S3 the writers can't even bother to keep their own hot mess of a story straight, this episode it was Oliver arguing to Laurel/Nyssa that even though Sara's pictures of Merlyn are from two weeks ago, Merlyn is actually only in town because of Thea, who only arrived after Sara died. JESUS, do they even have proofreader, a beta reader, a bullshit detector? That goes back to them relying on so much plot distracting everyone from how the plot is really fucking dumb and makes no actual sense. That makes me bitter because I never give a crap about that stuff, but when it's in my face every single week it's impossible to cut them even an iota of slack.

[dtissagirl]

It was annoying already that they're writing plot-driven-by-DESTINY!Laurel so that one day she can be Black Canary. Now Oliver told Nyssa that Merlyn is under his protection so that one day around May Sweeps 2015, Ra's can bring the League of Assassins to town and they can set up a giant stunt sequence with twenty billion archers in Halloween costumes [appreciate that, Quentin. You're my hero in a sea of lying liars who lie].

 

Seriously, show. There is a happy medium between setting up future story beats by occasionally making your characters plot-driven [without making them dumb, even], and character-driven organic storytelling. You actually did that pretty well from 1x14 to 2x09, so it's not even like you don't know how to do it. You're just refusing to.

 

 

You know what makes me the bitterest? I don't really feel like rewatching 302-303-304 ever again. I'm right back in season 2B, when watching each episode felt like ripping the band-aid off already so I could be done with them. Depressing, gloomy, hopeless characters making choices I don't really understand, nor do I care much for. Ugh.

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, the thing that is really depressing is they stopped telling good stories about the time they started focusing on flash. They haven't really gotten back to it since. Ugh ugh ugh. Bitter, bitter, bitter?

[Tangerine]

I'm bitter about the whitewashing. I know that it's okay to like problematic things; nothing in this world is perfect but this is essentially the third case of whitewashing we have from this show and it's pretty damn insulting on top of all of the other problematic things that has been happening this season. I know that Ra's Al Ghul's ethnic background is very mixed and ambiguous and he can certainly LOOK caucasian, but representation on TV is important and this was just such a huge miss. Arrow has had some great supporting characters that were PoC...whose roles were slowly reduced or eliminated altogether. And its history for diversity doesn't make this case any less egregious.

[popgoesculture]

I wanted to give this season a chance, but it's such a big mess that it's getting harder and harder to watch it. There's only one reason I watch now, and the rest is just massive side eye. The more I think about it, the stupider the killing Sara plotline as the impetus for the season is: as everyone pointed out, they are terrible about plotting out this "mystery" of who killed her. There IS no mystery. The way she died was so shocking and disgusting -- landing on a dumpster, buried unceremoniously without her dad being notified -- that it's hard to move past anger towards the writers. Instead, we just have the characters running around, yelling at each other, chasing down a new "suspect" (though again, what is the motive for Sara's murder?) each episode and, quite frankly, making me dislike all of them. Characterization is taking a back seat to plot, and I thought they learned their lesson from the second half of season 2, though maybe it's the first half of season 2 that's the anomaly. 

 

I keep thinking that if they wanted to do something with Sara/push Laurel and everyone's storylines in the only way they seem to know how to (putting female characters in jeopardy/or outright killing them), they could have done the same (and better) if Sara/the Canary had been abducted at the end of the premiere, and Laurel witnessed it. That makes more sense to me: it creates an urgency in getting her back, and makes everyone work together. Digg comes in to help, Oliver and Nyssa would have to chase down leads, while maybe Laurel and Quentin are frustrated by the law's inability to help in this situation (because... assassins), so Laurel turns to training and other avenues to help get back her baby sister. That makes more sense to me, and then you have Laurel wanting to continue the fight when they rescue Sara, and Sara encouraging her, etc. Something more gradual, less overwhelmingly dark and depressing, and less "let's all yell a whole lot in every episode because we're so HURT and that's the only way we express our emotions." 

 

 

 

[tv echo]

It certainly seems that the focus this season is more on getting as many people into costume as soon as possible and then doing cool stunt fighting, and less on developing logical, organic storytelling.

[Chaser]

I'm mentally preparing myself for Laurel scenes next episode. I find myself counting how many scenes she will be in based on the promos. So far I have three so far: Laurel/Lance talking about Sara, Laurel/Ted training (I think Oliver may be witnessing this due to NZ promo), and Laurel/Ted looking out a window (could be after training but they do have different clothes on). I'm bitter because I'm remembering TOD and Corto Maltese. I'm bitter because my mind automatically goes there.

[Password]

I think I remember people said they promoted ToD as a Lance family episode, then changed it up and said it's Felicity centric. This time I'm hoping that it's just Felicity centric. Please pleeeeeeease. I'm just bitter because I'm seeing so much Laurel.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Yeah, ToD has always been promoted as the Lance Family Hour, the "Brothers & Sisters" (also produced by Berlanti) episode of "Arrow." Then about a week before the ep aired, it suddenly was getting promoted as a Felicity-centric ep. I've often wondered if that was because of the backlash over the last minutes of "Heir to the Demon" and the EPs realized they needed to do some damage control. I still remember my bitterness over that, especially after watching the damn ep (and wow, I'm still pissed with "Arrow" even after a good night's sleep and coffee).

 

I'm actually a little bit more optimistic this actually is a Felicity-centric ep just because her name is in the goddamn title. I'm not taking cues from the New Zealand teaser about the content of this ep. If you've seen that version, half of it was Laurel (no, no, no, no, no, no, NOOOO!).

Edited October 30, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[SonofaBiscuit]

I am bitter that because I don't think they have any interest in fixing the show I used to love.

 

This is what I'm most bitter about as well.  I was under the assumption that the EPs had taken note of what people enjoyed in the first two seasons and were going to incorporate more of that into the show.  Love Original Team Arrow trio?  Ha, we'll fracture the original team and add new members.  Want a more intimate season?  Ha, we'll add new recurring characters, focus on the action, go a thousand miles per minute, and make our regulars act OOC to drive the plot.  Laurel is your least favorite character?  Ha, we'll insert her into the Arrow lair and double her screentime.  This is feeling like season 2B all over again, only worse this time. 

[Password]

I almost feel like they're doing it on purpose so that 3B will come together? For the better. But that doesn't make much sense if after seeing 3A people quit the show.

[moviewhore]

I'm bitter that John Barrowman's on the show.  Because at this point I want to quit the show but he's bringing me in. 

 

Mostly I'm bitter about Laurel screaming at everybody and how her presence mars the team dynamic.  And how she still hasn't told her dad Sara's dead.

 

I'm also bitter about how dark the show is now and no longer fun to watch, except for Barrowman. 

[chaos is welcome]

I almost feel like they're doing it on purpose so that 3B will come together? For the better. But that doesn't make much sense if after seeing 3A people quit the show.

I would like to believe this, except we used this same justification for 2b. We started this season with high hopes of a cohesive storyline...and we get this.

[calliope1975]

I almost feel like they're doing it on purpose so that 3B will come together? For the better. But that doesn't make much sense if after seeing 3A people quit the show.

 

I so hope you're right, but it seems the TPTB are risking losing viewers who are annoyed by the disjointed plot and confusing OOC moments. Did the EPs ever address what a mess 2B was or did they think it was great? Those last three episodes pulled me back in so maybe they just figured people liked all of 2B or didn't care.

[Password]

The problem I have is that they're completely separating Oliver, Felicity and Diggle. I understand making identity decisions. However sending Felicity to Ray, Diggle to Lyla and baby and Oliver to Thea means they barely interact with one another. And what we are left with is Laurel in the foundry being boring, Roy being boring, Oliver being boring, Felicity being boring in Central City and John telling Oliver to kill people (John is never boring). I feel like they're going about identity in the wrong way. These are not growing pains, these are systematic separation schemes that I don't particularly care for, given what we have to tide us over.

[Orion]

That's my problem too. What we are left with is not what I want to watch.

 

They took away Olicity ( angst, I get it) They took away Team Arrow. They took away Oliver and Felicity's friendship. They took away Diggle and Felicity's friendship. They took away common sense. They took away the partnership/camaraderie/fun in the lair. Then they literally took away Felicity.

 

In exchange:

 

I get Laurel everywhere. I get Roy everywhere. (this kid is just hanging out in the background of every damn scene) I get moody/dark/depressing/angry/whiney group of people that wander around having whatever personality fits the plot. I get weird editing, huge plots holes, pacing problems galore.

 

And I also feel like a fool for believing them when they said they knew what the problems were and that they were going to fix them ... because this is not fixing the problems this is smashing the things that worked great against a wall thinking the audience will really love to watch them try to put the puzzle pieces back together again.

[DrSpaceman10]

That's my problem too. What we are left with is not what I want to watch.

 

They took away Olicity ( angst, I get it) They took away Team Arrow. They took away Oliver and Felicity's friendship. They took away Diggle and Felicity's friendship. They took away common sense. They took away the partnership/camaraderie/fun in the lair. Then they literally took away Felicity.

 

I completely agree, they took away my favorite part of the show (by far). This is random, but your post reminds me of this scene from Fringe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgMsH3hQopI :(

[Chaser]

The thing is they know what is being said. Off the top of my head: "Are we favor friends? Are we friends" ; "This started with the three of us; its time we got back to that." ; "You are not your sister" ; "You are not fit to wear that jacket."

 

They are aware of the issues. They are letting us know that they hear the audience. But instead of taking a strong look at the narrative and trying to fix the problems organically, they toss it out as a joke to the audience or put in a throwaway line or even worse, they acknowledge the stupid jacket only to back track in the same episode.

 

I just have a hard time understanding the way they are addressing some of the problems. Why they are choosing to approach things the way they are? Why force apart elements that work and gloss over ones that don't?

[Password]

It seems more than likely they don't care because it's their show. More and more it's becoming obvious they decided "OK Lauriver doesn't work, Olicity in, but Laurel onwards to BC". Except Olicity isn't in. Team Arrow is a mixture of individuals I don't enjoy. Oliver is making strange decisions and not consulting his partners. The story they want to tell with Laurel isn't working for me. I just feel like the foundry, the base of operations needs to be fixed. There the interactions must be rearranged. I couldn't give a rats behind about outside of that safe place. But I no longer feel safe in it. For me, I feel like there's too much I have to wait for for things to make sense. If an episode cannot stand on itself and make good sense whilst being entertaining, then they're failing. Odd conclusions are being met, I'm not intrigued by who killed Sara because Sara is just dead. I am entertained without being excited. (Except for crazy Thea and Merlyn heeeey)

Edited October 30, 2014 by Limbo

[writersblock51]

This latest episode baffles me.  On one hand, there were so many plot holes - some big enough to drive a mack truck through.  Things often felt rushed.  Characters seemed 'off' - could this be part of the grieving process?  Because the only person who I recognize is Quentin...

 

On the other hand, some of the episode was strong.  I like the Thea stuff - I think she's playing both Oliver and Malcolm while she gets what she needs from both of them.  They think it's on their terms, too, but I strongly suspect she's more in control of her life than either of those men think.  While I don't like her lying to Oliver, I'm OK with how things have played out between them.  I just hope the show keeps careful track of that.

 

For me, my biggest pool of bitterness is about Quentin (and, by extension, I suppose, Dinah) not being told that Sara is dead.  I don't care if the show's timeline is just a week or so.  Quentin should have been told immediately, while he was still in the hospital.  Not telling him - and outright lying to him (and having others be complicit in that huge lie) is something I'm not likely to gloss over or excuse Laurel for doing.  And, knowing this show, Quentin will probably forgive her quickly because she's Laurel - the one whose shit never truly stinks.

 

The show overall feels off.  The EPs had promised a more intimate feel this season.  4 episodes in the books and it feels anything but.  They have dismantled 2 out of the 3 main parts of the show that I and many others (including numerous critics) enjoyed: original Team Arrow and Oliver & Felicity.  The only thing that seems to still be running well is the stunt work.

 

My theory is that the change in which EPs are in charge is at play.  Berlanti & Kriesberg are, seemingly, all about the Flash.  Which leaves MG in charge of "Arrow" and I think it's hurting the show.

 

Does the shows' Powers that Be know that things aren't going as well as they hoped?  I don't know.  I think they'd be wise not to admit it publicly - but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be making changes asap to get things back on track.

 

But do they know?  Do they care?  Is throwing in Easter Eggs and acknowledgement of Oliver & Felicity's maturing relationship just to tide fans over while the long game hasn't changed after all? 

 

Has the ending of the series already been written and carved in stone?  I lean towards thinking that this is, indeed, the case. I can't explain what's happening this season otherwise.

[TanyaKay]

That's my problem too. What we are left with is not what I want to watch.

 

They took away Olicity ( angst, I get it) They took away Team Arrow. They took away Oliver and Felicity's friendship. They took away Diggle and Felicity's friendship. They took away common sense. They took away the partnership/camaraderie/fun in the lair. Then they literally took away Felicity.

 

What angst?

You need to spend time in the same frame for things to get angsty but Oliver and Felicity hardly shared any screen time together after the season premiere. We had a date, a break up kiss and then this dark void! I would've welcomed angst with open arms if we had gotten angst. All we got is precious screen time wasted on Katie Cassidy barking orders to other cast members, staring into space and wearing gym clothes that show off her arms.

I had not signed up for this. They sold this season as season of Olicity and all the got so far is Laurel Lance clusterfuck and I am extremely bitter about it.

[olicityfan25]

The fact that I could predict what was going to happen in the episode like Thea lying and Laurel being a complete nutcase is not good for the show.

 

Also what's funny is that Felicity trended worldwide for an episode where she had one scene and one line of 4 words at the end of the episode. Makes it appear like a lot of people could care less about the other people on the show. I'm just gonna sit over here and laugh now.

[chaos is welcome]

The one consolation is that laurel was omitted from many of the reviews of this ep, and most of those reviews were meh. Contrast that with the review of ebr on the flash. It should make me less bitter but it mostly reminds me that the writers are idiots. I wish berlanti would come back.

[Princess Vanellope]

I'm bitter because I dared to hope after all the spoilers from the hiatus. And what did they do with that hope? They threw it on the ground and kicked the shit out of it. It feels like the things I loved about the show have disappeared (or have been literally put in a fridge), while the things I detest have been shoved front and center. Meanwhile TPTB continue trying to convince us that this bubbling cauldron of bullshit really does taste delicious if we try it. Yeah, no thanks fellas. So bitter I could cry.

[Guest]

I don't know if this is the correct thread but it's a bitter rant so I'll leave it here for now...

 

Aside from Felicity's episode next week (of which I've already lowered my expectations) I'm not actually looking forward to anything this season and it makes me so sad and yes, very bitter. I used to be a casual viewer of this show but towards the end of last season I really felt like the show was coming into its own and finally, hopefully, coming to terms with what worked and what didn't. They really pulled me back in with the return of focus on Team Arrow and the power of Oliver and Felicity's connection, less focus on Laurel, lots of action. I felt like it was a sign of great things to come and then the spoilers and SDCC really upped my excitement.

 

Now I just feel like I've been lied to in a weird sort of way because the last four episodes in no way reflect what the end of season 2 (and all of the spoilers during hiatus) was leading to. I feel like the whole show has been restructured, badly, just so one character can fit and as a result everyone is either OOC or completely lost to nothing.

 

And I really hate that they are making me hate Laurel because I had hoped that they'd find a better way to make her work and they simply haven't. Everything feels wrong on the show presently because all the plots are orchestrated for one purpose and nothing feels character driven and everything is clunky and awkward. 

 

Starting the season with Sara's death has really dragged the whole show down and everything is so grim and dark. The last episode with Felicity missing really highlighted that it's completely lost its heart and I don't think I have any interest in seeing how it comes back from that. Because I don't care if Laurel is angry. I have no connection to her at all. I don't care who killed Sara because as far as I'm concerned it never mattered who killed her - it's always about Laurel and making her BC. I don't care to see Felicity and Oliver miles apart, losing everything I loved about their relationship in the first place. I don't care to see Diggle - the man who always told Oliver he could have it all - wanting to abandon his crusade just because he's a father now. I don't care about any of it. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by Guest

[KirkB]

Starting the season with Sara's death has really dragged the whole show down and everything is so grim and dark.

 

Yeah, I think that's the biggest screw up with killing Sara, not just how they did it but when. They're using it as a mystery of the season plot (as well as a way to prop up Laurel) without any apparent consideration for the fact doing that sets the tone for the entire season. Arrow is supposed to be fun and exciting first, albeit with dark undertones and yes, the occasional death. I think the EP's are under the impression we're going to be all distracted trying to figure out who killed Sara (instead of being angered by it) and that whatever problems we may have with that will be over ridden by how cool Ra's al Ghul is, even though a lot of people seem to think they made a mistake in the casting and thus are bothered or distracted by that too.

[Pyramid]

The problem with the show for me right now is that it's all about Laurel becoming BC and who killed Sara.

I absolutely, positively do not give a shit about Laurel's journey, and especially not the way they're doing it.

I do not care who killed Sara. She's dead because the writers seemed to think that was what was best for Laurel's character. Why it happened in-show is of so little interest to me that I can't think of a metaphor to explain it.

 

Normally I'd be left with Team Arrow to see me through, but they've been ripped apart, so it's the stunts, which are great but to what end when the plot is such a mess.

 

To be fair, I do like the Thea story line, so there's that.

 

Gah, it could be such a great show if they just binned Laurel! So frustrating!

[chaos is welcome]

Even the stunts are meh. The bike thing in the Komodo ep was over done. Liked the three way fight w the archers but overall I feel like they are trying to get too fancy and moving away from the raw stuff of s1, like the rooftop fights I still love.

[Password]

I haven't been particularly impressed with the stunts either. The motorbike jousting bore me, the three way fight was so dark I couldn't really pay attention.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Limbo

[blixie]

 

whatever problems we may have with that will be over ridden by how cool Ra's al Ghul is, even though a lot of people seem to think they made a mistake in the casting and thus are bothered or distracted by that too.

 

And I have to say as much as I am in the small group of people who LOVES Brandon Routh, I find it utterly bizarre why they blew such a wad signing a known name for Ray Palmer, and cast random footballer Aussie for Ra's. It's one of the unending stream of weird decisions they make.

[Kymmi]

Starting the season with Sara's death has really dragged the whole show down and everything is so grim and dark. The last episode with Felicity missing really highlighted that it's completely lost its heart and I don't think I have any interest in seeing how it comes back from that. Because I don't care if Laurel is angry. I have no connection to her at all. I don't care who killed Sara because as far as I'm concerned it never mattered who killed her - it's always about Laurel and making her BC. I don't care to see Felicity and Oliver miles apart, losing everything I loved about their relationship in the first place. I don't care to see Diggle - the man who always told Oliver he could have it all - wanting to abandon his crusade just because he's a father now. I don't care about any of it. 

 

I want to +1 EVERYTHING you've said in this post, particularly the bolded line.  Bottom line - they've made me not care about the show and that's a shame.  

[writersblock51]

The focus on Laurel also is pulling attention away from Oliver - and it's his show. Or maybe that how it feels to me.

 

If I saw that Oliver was doing things differently as a direct result of Sara's death, it would feel different, I think. But he's in cop-mode now, not necessarily Arrow mode.  He's reacting to the latest clue that so happened to have been in his possession for a week or so without him checking it out.  Felicity being out of town isn't helping track things down either.  It just seems like the murder mystery is truly about Laurel while Oliver & Co. are just flailing.

 

The show should never have been about Black Canary to the detriment of Green Arrow/Oliver Queen. But this is not unlike what happened last season when more & more time was spent on Sara's journey.   Which all seems like a huge waste in retrospect.

 

Why is this show so hellbent on Black Canary stuff anyway?

[chaos is welcome]

And I have to say as much as I am in the small group of people who LOVES Brandon Routh, I find it utterly bizarre why they blew such a wad signing a known name for Ray Palmer, and cast random footballer Aussie for Ra's. It's one of the unending stream of weird decisions they make.

Gonna take this over to s&s

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

The focus on Laurel also is pulling attention away from Oliver - and it's his show. Or maybe that how it feels to me.

If I saw that Oliver was doing things differently as a direct result of Sara's death, it would feel different, I think. But he's in cop-mode now, not necessarily Arrow mode. He's reacting to the latest clue that so happened to have been in his possession for a week or so without him checking it out. Felicity being out of town isn't helping track things down either. It just seems like the murder mystery is truly about Laurel while Oliver & Co. are just flailing.

The show should never have been about Black Canary to the detriment of Green Arrow/Oliver Queen. But this is not unlike what happened last season when more & more time was spent on Sara's journey. Which all seems like a huge waste in retrospect.

Why is this show so hellbent on Black Canary stuff anyway?

Because they will never get a green light on a BC show so they play with her on Arrow. If they truly wanted to do Arrow, the show wouldn't have the problems it does. 2B and 3A to this point is a free fall because of the BC expectations.

Sara and Laurel have created narrative problems. Had Laurel never been written in for S1 and a potential BC (Sara?) showed up in S2 the narrative would have been stronger and perhaps the character integrated organically.

Sara and Laurel both have horrible characterizations due to sister-swapping and their lack of familial bond on the show. Laurel could have cared less about her sister except for when she was angry at Oliver for her death and then when she realized Oliver and Sara were bumping uglies again. Had Laurel never existed and Sara showed up, the show would have been ten times better.

Instead we are stuck with this pathetic attempt at entertainment because the writers have a boner for BC and are using Arrow as a vessel to being her to life.

[calliope1975]

I agree with what everyone is saying. I thought this season would be much lighter in tone after all the grimdark of 2B. I expected angst with Olicity, and I was okay with that. I did not expect the complete dismantling of Team Arrow. The stunts, which were so much fun and the best part of the show have become ridiculous. That dumb, unnecessary parkour move Roy did last ep just took me out of the scene and made me laugh - and not in a good way. Ra's al Ghul, the 2nd most dangerous man in the DC universe, was a total letdown. Steadfast, consistent characters are acting OOC, and the most inconsistent, annoying character is being pushed front and center.

 

I keep hoping there's some payoff for all this crap, but I'm beginning to lose hope. 

[Chaser]

I'm not against having a Black Canary on the show, but I'm against having a Black Canary Origin story on a show about the Green Arrow's Origins. One, the two origins shouldn't be connected in anyway, which leads to Two) it takes the focus away from the Arrow. 

 

This is why killing Sara and not Laurel makes me want to bang my head against the wall. Sara was introduced in the S2 season as a full formed Black Canary (yes she still had growth to go thru as a killer to a hero, but the foundation was built). They could have kept S2 as it was but killed off Laurel instead. It would keep Sara in Starling City while they find her killer. After that is solved, Sara is back to recurring. Off with Nyssa (but not with the LOA - don't know how but BC shouldn't be an assassin) must of the time, but coming back to Starling City when needed. And there you go, a Black Canary that teams up with Green Arrow when needed, but not so much that it becomes the Arrow and Black Canary show. You also get the benefit of Team Arrow being the main dynamic of the show and Oliver/Felicity being the main romance. 

 

It makes me so sad they couldn't/wouldn't do this. We could have had it all.