Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Chaser]

Introducing Sara as the Canary could have worked as a stepping stone to Laurel becoming the Black Canary but they made two huge missteps in my opinion:

 

1) Oliver/Sara. Her story was tied much closer to Oliver's than to Laurel's. They had her fight alongside Oliver and have a romantic relationship with Oliver.

 

2) Slade. 

 

It makes sense that Oliver and Sara were so close (I loved their friendship) and it makes sense that her storyline kept her mostly with Oliver (Its his show). However, if she was supposed to serve as Laurel's motivation and inspiration, her story line should have been tied more closely to Laurel's. Laurel was in a horrible place after Tommy's death. All of her relationships were shot to hell and she was barely holding on. She could have used a sister coming back from the dead. She could have used Sara's guidance. They could have repaired their family. Instead the show made their relationship uncomfortable. They made it about Oliver and the past jealousy. They never even talked about Tommy. They could have cut out the romance with Oliver and given that time to Laurel.

 

Slade was another problem. By having Sara on the island during this time, they tied Sara directly to the A-Plot. She became an important part of the main villain arc (Sara and Shado). Sara was more relevant to season 2 than Laurel was. And it painted Sara in a favorable, sympathetic light while damaging Laurel. We got Laurel thru Sara's eyes instead of the other way around.

 

It's really crazy to me the choices they have made with Laurel and this really backward way of story telling the EPs seem to be all about when it comes to this character. I really have no idea what they were doing with Laurel in S2. Whenever I think I understand, I remember something that doesn't fit. 

 

Part of me thinks they got so caught up in what they loved about Sara, they forgot what her original intention was.

Edited November 9, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[DrSpaceman10]

1) Oliver/Sara. Her story was tied much closer to Oliver's than to Laurel's. They had her fight alongside Oliver and have a romantic relationship with Oliver.

 

However, if she was supposed to serve as Laurel's motivation and inspiration, her story line should have been tied more closely to Laurel's. Laurel was in a horrible place after Tommy's death.  They could have repaired their family. Instead the show made their relationship uncomfortable. They made it about Oliver and the past jealousy. They could have cut out the romance with Oliver and given that time to Laurel.

 

Part of me thinks they got so caught up in what they loved about Sara, they forgot what her original intention was.

 

Killing Sara to further Laurel as BC makes no sense given how much time they spent on Sara's journey in season 2 (she was almost tied with Felicity for screen time, if I remember correctly) and how little of that time they spent on Sara/Laurel's relationship. There is no logic to some of the decisions made on this show and if you think about it too much it starts to drive you crazy.

 

Since this is the bitter thread...I think this is one of the most consistently disappointing shows I've ever watched. After 2A (and its focus on what I consider to be the strongest part of the show (Oliver, Diggle and Felicity)) I really thought that TPTB understood what worked and what didn't. Needless to say, 2B was a really big letdown for me. I feel like this show has so much potential and it squanders it on too many characters and nonsensical plots.

 

I keep waiting for the show to get back to the way it was in 2A (when plots and characters actually made sense), but I don't think that's ever going to happen.

 

/bitter rant

[GirlWednesday]

I remember watching first couple of eps of season 1. Watched it off and on but the show didn't hook me in like SG1, BSG, doctor who. I realize that these shows are vastly different but each show I loved because of the character work when it mattered. Season 1 finale was what hooked me. Team arrow. I did fast fwd thru some she who shalt not be named scenes. But I was super pumped for season 2. I agree with the post above. Arrow is the first show I felt invested in its character growth and development. Every other show I'm just along for the ride. Although Moffat these days does earn some of my ire.

Maybe because there is no Fringe/xfiles/SG1 on tv - that Arrow became my go to show for frivolous watching. And it's probably what's making me more disappointed when the writers falter. Maybe because I know the writers are capable of GREATNESS (season 2a) that it is even more disappointing when it missteps. Killing Tommy And Sarah was a big misstep. Not having Slade develop into an anti-hero was another. Though it may be the track that THEA and Meryln are on now.

I like this arrow. I may not watch every episode but I want to want to watch every episode like season 2a. I want to love this show and have it be my new SG1/fringe.

But alas it's not to be. I have no idea whats happening. To get over it, I took on the show Haven. It's not perfect, the legends are confusing as hell, but it delivers on entertainment, character work and good monster of the week. Heroes get shit done and they get it done with wit.

I'm bitter that I can't seem to completely quit arrow bcuz I still like team arrow and will tune into the show off and on even if it is mediocre.

Edited November 9, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[tessaray]

 

Arrow is the first show I felt invested in its character growth and development. Every other show I'm just along for the ride. Although Moffat these days does earn some of my ire.

I'm not too happy with Moffat either, so I've been pretty grouchy about shows this year.  If it weren't for Person of Interest, I wouldn't have anything to watch.  

 

I fell for Arrow because of Team Arrow.  Watching Oliver become a better human being because of them.  Nothing I've seen so far has shown me that Oliver is a better person because of Laurel.  Sara worked, because her reappearance healed something inside him and he did the same for her.  Then came Season 3. Sigh.  Enough bitterness for tonight, I guess.

[writersblock51]

After reading MG Access Hollywood interview, I'm baffled yet again.  He referred to this season as being Laurel's beginning, not the end.  Why has this show struggled for 2 years to write for this character?  What, truly, is the problem?  Because just starting her 'slow burn' (his words) at this point is a head scratcher.  They've had ample opportunity to write a path (or paths) for Laurel throughout this time so that what's happening now makes more sense.

 

I'm not blaming Laurel or KC for this.  My bitterness is aimed squarely on the EPs and the writers for this.  Laurel's burning anger to avenge her sister's death points to one of 2 things (neither of which has been established on the show):

 

1) a sisterly closeness

 

2) Laurel feeling guilty for being so happy for Sara returning to the LoA at the end of S2 and thereby, possibly being involved in circumstances that ultimately killed her

 

I don't know it this belongs in the Laurel thread?

[SonofaBiscuit]

As long as folks keep tweeting about the character, debating her relevance and filling pages and pages of forums/boards (quick guess on which character has the most replies in this forum. anyone?) that character will be a part of the show (even if they have to bend over backwards and shaft other characters to make way). What did Stephen say about apathy? That that's the one they are worried about? The show would rather have somebody getting negative feedback because it's still feedback. So yeah, don't like a character? Don't talk about them. Pretend they don't exist. Maybe if they don't hear about the character, the show will finally get the message.

 

See, I'm worried that if people just stop talking, the EPs will assume it's because we've accepted this problem character.  "They're not talking about her anymore...our grand plan has worked."  What they don't know is that they won't force me into submission, I'll eventually just give up and tune out.

[Danny Franks]

See, I'm worried that if people just stop talking, the EPs will assume it's because we've accepted this problem character.  "They're not talking about her anymore...our grand plan has worked."  What they don't know is that they won't force me into submission, I'll eventually just give up and tune out.

 

The only thing that will make them realise they're wrong is if people stop watching. That's it. Yes, apathy is absolutely the worst reaction a TV show can produce, from a creative and network point of view. Because even if you hate something, it means there is an emotional connection that might keep you watching. If you just flat out stop caring, you'll switch off. Perhaps those involve in Arrow now actually want to provoke that reaction, because they want to work on some other nascent DC TV show that's being prepped.

[Chaser]

Seen on tumblr "Oliver isn't even the GREEN ARROW yet and Laurel is already the BLACK CANARY."

 

That is everything.

[SmallScreenDiva]

See, I'm worried that if people just stop talking, the EPs will assume it's because we've accepted this problem character.  "They're not talking about her anymore...our grand plan has worked."  What they don't know is that they won't force me into submission, I'll eventually just give up and tune out.

 

Well, that's definitely one way of letting them know you don't like what's going on :) But shows love feedback, positive or negative. I think they will continue to "fix" something that gets talked about because the interpretation is that this character is evoking a reaction. Might not be the reaction they are hoping for. Hence the perpetual tinkering.

[Danny Franks]

Seen on tumblr "Oliver isn't even the GREEN ARROW yet and Laurel is already the BLACK CANARY."

 

That is everything.

 

Yeah, I'm going to go and read some old Birds of Prey issues, so I can remind myself of who actually is the Black Canary. Because the character portrayed on this show? Sure as shit it ain't her.

[quarks]

I'm now kinda bitter that we have been robbed of Donna Smoak versus Moira Queen scenes, cause, WOW. 

[statsgirl]

Moira vs Donna in defense of their kids.....  all the way down to sharing holidays.  Would Donna feel uncomfortable? Would Moira feel Felicity isn't good enough for Oliver (whereas Laurel was) or  accept her and Donna because they like/love Oliver?  

 

So much they could have done.

[quarks]

Plus the whole poverty versus wealth thing, trailer trash versus class, Donna's obvious willingness to approve of all of Felicity's friends and be as supportive as possible versus Moira's ongoing criticism of Oliver, the fact that Donna managed to raise an ambitious, brilliant daughter with ok a minor penchant for breaking the law versus Moira raising what we saw of pre-island Oliver (post-island Oliver is entirely due to other people), and the sense I have that Donna spends her spare time happily pouring over US Magazine and would know each and every charity event and celebrity Moira has ever been involved with.

 

It could have been AWESOME. 

[NumberCruncher]

Damn, you guys are making me sad about the impossibility of Moira vs. Donna. Why, show? Why???

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Last night I watched SPN for the first time in a few years. Back in the day I loved the show. It was their 200th episode and the title was "Fan Fiction." My God it was fun! It brought back so many memories of the things I loved about the show and made fun of the mockable aspects. Made me want to go back and marathon all the seasons I've seen and then catch up on what I haven't. 

 

I am bitter because I realized it won't happen with Arrow. The chemistry between the leads (SA and KC) isn't there. I wouldn't have been upset about this given 2s, but as KC is shoehorned in as BC we'll be subjected to more of them onscreen together. It is painful. The strength of the show (TA) is often the first thing to be thrown to the wayside. Someday I'd love to see a montage of Olicity moments ending with some form of happily ever after, but I think a lot of their moments will have to be left out given S3a. There won't be mocking of the big bad of the week because they aren't memorable nor insane enough to be a joke. They are more pathetic.

 

As of now I will be relying on YT for the select moments which I won't sit through the show for. I'll probably wean myself off fan fiction because it is actually keeping me tethered to the show more than anything which has happened onscreen (E5 excluded because it was fun).

 

Time is precious and there are better things I can do for 60 minutes on a Wednesday night than watch a show I acknowledge I don't enjoy. Many shows go through low moments or slow story lines. However, the direction of S3 is opposite of where I want to go. So I'm hopping off this ride as this journey isn't one I want to be part of. I'm slightly bitter I can't get back the time invested in S1&2 since I won't be getting S3+ out of it. 

[pootlus]

Realised with some disappointment that I have zero desire to see this week's episode, and that means that Arrow is no longer appointment viewing for me.  I'm back in the spoiler thread and I'm going to be picking episodes that appeal to me (i.e. ones with a strong Felicity, Diggle or Thea/Malcolm focus and minimal Laurel) and just watch those.

[calliope1975]

I'm watching Red Band Society instead, and that is a terrible show. It really bums me out. I think I'll just ff'd through each episode to see if it turns around. I really like The Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak, so I know they can be better. I was talking to my friend at work who I convinced to watch about how disappointed I am this season. He's only seen the first episode since we typically watch at lunch. He thinks Laurel becoming Insta!Canary is stupid and is enjoying The Flash more. I appreciate all the info and fun conversation I get here so I'll hang in there - even if it's just for the pretty Olicity gifs on Tumblr.

 

What sucks even more is I wouldn't be so bummed if I hadn't fallen in love with this show. I feel like I'm involved in a break up right now, and eventually we're going to end up on a last ditch getaway to see if it'll work out. Also, I need more hobbies in my life. :D

[Pyramid]

After reading MG Access Hollywood interview, I'm baffled yet again.  He referred to this season as being Laurel's beginning, not the end.  Why has this show struggled for 2 years to write for this character?  What, truly, is the problem?  Because just starting her 'slow burn' (his words) at this point is a head scratcher.  They've had ample opportunity to write a path (or paths) for Laurel throughout this time so that what's happening now makes more sense.

 

I'm not blaming Laurel or KC for this.  My bitterness is aimed squarely on the EPs and the writers for this.  Laurel's burning anger to avenge her sister's death points to one of 2 things (neither of which has been established on the show):

 

1) a sisterly closeness

 

2) Laurel feeling guilty for being so happy for Sara returning to the LoA at the end of S2 and thereby, possibly being involved in circumstances that ultimately killed her

 

I don't know it this belongs in the Laurel thread?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the character of Laurel is a shit that the writers are trying to pick up by the clean end, consequently the only thing they've achieved is to get a mess on their hands.

Sensible people would've a) dropped it,  ii) never picked it up or c) not create the mess in the first place.

[tv echo]

I'm increasingly disillusioned (I'm tired of saying "bitter").  After this week's episode, it seems like the EPs (esp. Andrew Kreisberg) are still circling around the idea of an Oliver-Laurel endgame.  One reviewer even mentioned a possible love triangle among Oliver, Laurel and Ted after watching last night's episode.   

 

I'm convinced that AK never gave up that idea because he's fixated on Green Arrow-Black Canary equals Oliver-Laurel equals OTP.  He may give us Oliver and Felicity this season and maybe part of next, but (as discussed before) I think Ray Palmer was introduced partly for his story arc and partly as a test of both a possible spin-off series and to see if fans would accept another love interest for Felicity.  If Ray doesn't click with viewers, then most likely next season will see the introduction of someone with the initials E.R.

 

If what I've read online is any indication, the 'redemption of Laurel' arc this season is actually working - albeit slowly - to make her more acceptable.  Once she (or her stunt double) starts kicking ass as the Black Canary out in the field, I think we'll see even more acceptance of Laurel.  Then AK will start slipping in romantic hints between her and Oliver (probably next season).

 

For me, this show is circling down the drain faster than the Flash...

Edited November 13, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

I'm increasingly disillusioned (I'm tired of saying "bitter").  After this week's episode, it seems like the EPs (esp. Andrew Kreisberg) are still circling around the idea of an Oliver-Laurel endgame.  One reviewer even mentioned a possible love triangle among Oliver, Laurel and Ted after watching last night's episode.   

 

I'm convinced that AK never gave up that idea because he's fixated on Green Arrow-Black Canary equals Oliver-Laurel equals OTP.  He may give us Oliver and Felicity this season and maybe part of next, but (as discussed before) I think Ray Palmer was introduced partly for his story arc and partly as a test of both a possible spin-off series and to see if fans would accept another love interest for Felicity.  If Ray doesn't click with viewers, then most likely next season will see the introduction of someone with the initials E.R.

 

If what I've read online is any indication, the 'redemption of Laurel' arc this season is actually working - albeit slowly - to make her more acceptable.  Once she (or her stunt double) starts kicking ass as the Black Canary out in the field, I think we'll see even more acceptance of Laurel.  Then AK will start slipping in romantic hints between her and Oliver (probably next season).

 

For me, this show is circling down the drain faster than the Flash...

 

I think this is definitely how at least some of the EPs and writers are thinking - that Laurel as BC is 'the way' to get more acceptance of her place on the show.  As for her and Oliver as end game, I'm not as convinced if only because SA seems to think it's not going to happen.  Friends and allies, yes.

 

If AK is hanging onto his GA/BC dream, then he's going to find lower ratings because fans accepting Laurel as BC is one thing. Accepting her and Oliver again as end game is quite another. Their own history on the show works against them, before Felicity even becomes a part of the equation. 

 

Then again, this show seems to forget a lot of it's own history so perhaps they're hoping fans do too.

[Nagevs]

I'm increasingly disillusioned (I'm tired of saying "bitter").  After this week's episode, it seems like the EPs (esp. Andrew Kreisberg) are still circling around the idea of an Oliver-Laurel endgame.  One reviewer even mentioned a possible love triangle among Oliver, Laurel and Ted after watching last night's episode.   

 

I'm convinced that AK never gave up that idea because he's fixated on Green Arrow-Black Canary equals Oliver-Laurel equals OTP.  He may give us Oliver and Felicity this season and maybe part of next, but (as discussed before) I think Ray Palmer was introduced partly for his story arc and partly as a test of both a possible spin-off series and to see if fans would accept another love interest for Felicity.  If Ray doesn't click with viewers, then most likely next season will see the introduction of someone with the initials E.R.

 

 

 

I agree so much with your post. The showrunners are not letting go of their original plans. It's just taking longer than they anticipated. For me 'slow burn' means nothing in the long run. Oliver and Felicity will have angsty scenes that will never amount to anything and next season another DC hero awaits Felicity, while Oliver feels once again drawn to Laurel.

 

I've pretty much given up on the show and doubt i'll be watching it at all in the new year. It's so disappointing for me as I truly do love the show.

[insubordination]

Will never forget the sister swapping. It was a disgusting storyline. I didn't have sympathy for Oliver or either sister in that regard.

[writersblock51]

I think there are fans who will not forget the sister swapping but I truly don't think it ever bothered the EPs or writers.  I can't recall a single acknowledgement about it from any of them about the questionable nature of it.  So if they didn't think it was an issue or a turn off then, they won't have a problem reuniting Laurel and Oliver again down the road.

 

I doubt AK read the GA/BC comics after he was done writing them because he'd know what happened to their OTP-ness...

Edited November 13, 2014 by writersblock51

[TanyaKay]

Lolz @ OTP-ness.

Word of the day.

[Pyramid]

I'm bitter about a lot of things on the show, but I cannot believe they'd ever go back to Laurel/Oliver as long as Felicity is on the show. Olicity and Felicity are so popular that it would be insane to go back to a chemistry-free, sucking chest wound of a couple.

[Nagevs]

I cannot believe they'd ever go back to Laurel/Oliver as long as Felicity is on the show.

 

That's why I fear for Felicity. I truly believe MG would kill her off for Laurel, no doubt in my mind. It would likely ruin the dynamics of the show but I think he has blinders on when it comes to Laurel.

[Pyramid]

I think whoever the money people are would have a word if he thought about getting rid of Felicity. And ultimately, that's what counts.

[Nagevs]

I think whoever the money people are would have a word if he thought about getting rid of Felicity. And ultimately, that's what counts.

 

This is what I think will eventually have to happen. I dread the writing for Felicity if it really got to that stage though. 

[apinknightmare]

I get being distrustful of these people, but why is anyone scared for Felicity at this point? They're not going to kill her off. They got huge ratings for her ep last week, they use her to generate buzz for the show via promos and such, MG and AK have said how much they enjoy writing for her. Even though her name is comic canon, she is their creation; I'm sure there's a level of attachment there. Even if they wanted to get Oliver and Laurel back together they wouldn't have to kill Felicity to do it - in fact, the only way I think they could pull it off would be to have Felicity find happiness elsewhere so she's not even in the equation. At least she'd still be around to dangle in front of fans - if they kill her just to get Oliver and Laurel back together again, what's the point? They'd be losing those fans entirely.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I don't think you can rule anything out even if SA said it - because!comics! Killing an excellent BC for someone most of the audience has no warm feelings for because!comics can be applied to all situations. There wasn't even a competition everyone loved Sara as BC so they killed her for Laurel. Why not kill Oliver and make Roy GA? Here we go - because!comics.

Anything is possible as long as there are comics to fall back on. Especially is the AK (?) wants to see a live version of his comics.

It probably isn't time for a Felicity death watch yet, but if the ratings tank and cancellation/non-renewal casts a shadow I would pull out my pocket watch.

[apinknightmare]

It probably isn't time for a Felicity death watch yet, but if the ratings tank and cancellation/non-renewal casts a shadow I would pull out my pocket watch.

 

Why would they kill her if ratings tank? She's the one consistently well-received part of the show for both fans and critics, and if the ratings tank, they'd probably tank further by getting rid of her. The payoff of the shock value wouldn't make up for the pissed-off viewership.

[KirkB]

I don't think Felicity is safe just because she's popular. Neither is Diggle or Quentin. IMO the only truly safe person is Oliver. Literally everyone else could be killed off and replaced and the show would be able to continue. If they don't see anything more to do with Felicity, or if they think she is interfering with their plans, or even if it's a desperate attempt to boost faltering ratings, they won't hesitate to have the villain of the week kill her in order to spur on Oliver. What happened to Sara for the sake of Laurel is pretty much proof of that. I'm not saying I actually think it's going to happen, at least not right now, but I would never say never where shocking deaths are concerned on this show.

Edited November 13, 2014 by KirkB

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Why would they kill her if ratings tank? She's the one consistently well-received part of the show for both fans and critics, and if the ratings tank, they'd probably tank further by getting rid of her. The payoff of the shock value wouldn't make up for the pissed-off viewership.

Because!comics. Everyone was just biding time until Laurel became BC. They are waiting for GA&BC 4eva! Because!comics

I am not saying I want to see it. I am saying this is how TIIC think. They really believe everything wrong with Laurel is she took too long to become BC.

[Nagevs]

Why would they kill her if ratings tank? She's the one consistently well-received part of the show for both fans and critics, and if the ratings tank, they'd probably tank further by getting rid of her. The payoff of the shock value wouldn't make up for the pissed-off viewership.

 

You're thinking logically, it's apparent MG does not, otherwise he wouldn't have killed Sara off the way he did. He didn't care about pissing off Sara fans. I don't believe for a minute that he thinks Felicity fans are more special even if there are more of them.

[dtissagirl]

Anything is possible as long as there are comics to fall back on. Especially is the AK (?) wants to see a live version of his comics.

 

But... I don't get why would he be hung up on a title he wrote 10 years ago that was heavily criticized and a sales flop, when he is writing the Green Arrow comics RIGHT NOW. Green Arrow #36 came out last week, the entire issue is about Oliver, Diggle and Felicity coming together as an instant team, and that they work well together because Arrow. He didn't even try to make the dynamics different.

 

If/when he gets current new52 Dinah to be Oliver's romantic interest in the current GA comics I might get worried, but right now? All I'm seeing wrt Oliver/Felicity is the TV show influencing the comic book, not the other way around.

[tv echo]

But... I don't get why would he be hung up on a title he wrote 10 years ago that was heavily criticized and a sales flop, when he is writing the Green Arrow comics RIGHT NOW. Green Arrow #36 came out last week, the entire issue is about Oliver, Diggle and Felicity coming together as an instant team, and that they work well together because Arrow. He didn't even try to make the dynamics different.

Perhaps he's still feeling bitter that what he wrote was so heavily criticized - maybe his ego demands that he do it again but in a successful way, so that he can say 'told you so'?  Who knows.  I've given up trying to figure out the motivations of any of the Arrow EPs.

[MostlyC]

Folks, I understand you have very strong feelings about this latest episode,  Which is why some posts actually belong IN the episode thread, not here.  

Posts may be moved or deleted.

[Chaser]

Moved. Lol

Edited November 13, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[blixie]

 

"why did she have to be knocked unconscious?" That pretty much nessessitates the carry, which means they wanted her knocked unconscious so that Oliver could carry her.

 

Yes, but I think that could just be there way of showing (Instead of TELLING, how novel!) that Laurel ain't ready for primetime. MG's recent comments about the KC as Black Canary pictures confirmed that 

He said that just cause she suited up doesn't mean she's a hero yet.

No fucking duh buddy.

Edited November 13, 2014 by blixie

[NumberCruncher]

I'm bitter about a lot of things on the show, but I cannot believe they'd ever go back to Laurel/Oliver as long as Felicity is on the show. Olicity and Felicity are so popular that it would be insane to go back to a chemistry-free, sucking chest wound of a couple.

Hee! I love this label so much that I'm stealing it from you. ;)

I'm clearly not as worried as some here about the EPs going back to a GA/BC romance. Even if by some small chance it happens, I think it will be several seasons down the road, and based on the total crapfest direction the show seems hell-bent on taking, the likelihood I'll still be invested is low. I'm just going to enjoy the ride (and the snark) in the meantime.

[benteen]

Stuff I can't stand...heroes selfishly keeping their secret identity from those they love when they know the danger it puts them in *cough*Oliver and Barry*cough*

[TyranAmiros]

I've been watching Arrow since Episode 6 of Season 1, but last night was just my tipping point.  I turned off the TV midway through the episode because I realized I didn't care about any of the storylines at the moment. I normally don't watch comic book adaptations; I think they tend to suffer from canon syndrome: what happens in the comics is ordained to happen, whether it makes sense with these particular actors or not.  For two seasons, however, Arrow seemed to be doing a pretty good job at realizing the differences between mediums, and I really respected the show for being willing to shake up the story to match what worked with their actors, their setting, their strengths and weaknesses.

 

I even didn't mind the easter eggs as long as they were just that--references that were great for comics fans but not necessary to selling the story itself.  At some point, this changed.  Right around the League of Assassins and Suicide Squad were introduced, if memory serves.  It's not that they're appearing--in fact, it's great to have the source material--but I find it different to be excited by Harley Quinn simply because "it's Harley Quinn".  So what? Is she Daria's sister? No, I don't know who Amanda Waller is, but as someone who hasn't read the comics, I haven't found her to be particularly interesting, and no, just because she does something in the comics is not a substitute for characterization on-screen.  This is my problem with things like R'as al' Ghoul and Cupid--maybe they're going to be good antagonists, but the names in and of themselves don't make me excited to watch.  Do I need to be familiar with the entire DC mythos to enjoy this show? Because I feel that's the direction it's moving.

 

This problem was made worse by Arrow 2.5.  Other posters have complained about the possibility of key character development happening off-screen in the tie-in comics, and this is certainly true, especially of Roy's integration into Team Arrow.  I loved the moment where Oliver takes Roy down and introduces him to Diggle and Felicity last season.  But I want to see on-screen Roy growing into his role on the Team.  Instead, I got Insta-Arsenal.  Personally, I think that Team Arrow could easily have handled Roy since he wouldn't be competing with Digg or Felicity (he'd complete the four-temperament ensemble with Oliver=Fire, Diggle=Earth, Felicity=Air, and Roy=Water), but instead, his development has been kind of shoved to the background (no, what happened in this episode is not character development, it's plot).

 

It drives me crazy because I am invested for some reason in the show.  I think the cast genuinely seem to enjoy making the show.  But as they said on Supernatural's "Fan Fiction" episode, maybe there's a point when fan fiction isn't any worse than the show itself.  Better even.  Anyway, I wrote a letter to the CW network to this extent. I'm watching the Flash cross-over but other than that, I'm out of watching the show live.

[dtissagirl]

Bringing this over to the Bitterness thread because it's depressing.
 

You know that list of convicts in the season premier? I sort of wish that it wasn't put on the backburner just so the team can find Sara's killer. I mean right now I have a feeling that they just twiddle their thumbs in between episodes and not really do any work. I sort of wish that they would've pursued that list, and weave in developments to finding Sara's killer to that episode and not making it the main point. 
 
I also wish that Laurel wasn't so up front and center because even NOW her arc is still tangential to Oliver's arc. It's just grating because I feel like the show came to a screeching halt in terms of development in order for Laurel to catch up. I'd much rather see her develop in the background and then when she's ready, put her in the middle of the episode (mid season maybe?).

What I'm finding bizarre -- and I don't have any explanation other than this is all plot-driven because they have certain plot points to reach in the key episodes: mid-season finale, winter premiere, February Sweeps, what have you -- and so all they're doing right now is set up.
 
Sara's murder mystery is a narrative problem for me, because they're stretching it for... reasons. I'm sure I'm not the only one seeing the pattern: even-numbered episodes, suspects fall on Team Arrow's lap solely by existing: Komodo in 302, Merlyn in 304, Roy in 306. Nobody really investigates much to find the suspects, mind you, the suspects appear and then they investigate them. Uh. Okay, show, in the world of CSI NCIS SVU etc you go that route, because nobody at home has watched procedurals for the past decade and a half to know how TV crime works.
 
And then in odd-numbered episodes, they ignore the whodunit, and go to Corto Maltese, or deal with Felicity's douchey ass ex-boyfriend. From the promos, 307 looks like it's keeping up with the pattern as well. Here's hoping the Flash crossover breaks it!
 
What's even more frustrating is that Sara's murder is supposed to be the main driving force for Laurel... but Laurel's not investigating her murder. She could be leading the entire thing, for crying out loud. She's the one with all of the available tools to do so -- the resources of the DA's office and the police department, and the bonus of now knowing a computer genius and a special ops dude with a foot inside ARGUS. But she's training to be a vigilante INSTEAD. She could be doing both, but they're deliberately writing her with a single-minded one goal: learning to fight so she can be a vigilante. She's lying to Lance to keep him out of the murder mystery narrative. She and Oliver are butting heads because they most likely need her to be vigilanteing without Team Arrow at some point in the near future. But still, this is it: learning to be a vigilante is all Laurel's narrative consists of right now. Which makes me think this is plot-driven, and not at all character development. Whatever their plans for Laurel is, it highly necessitates that she learns how to be a vigilante, and nothing else.

 

ETA: even making her incompetent at her day job last week ties into it. The riot squad gaffe could have been dealt just by Lance calling her on it, but the show made a point to make Oliver and Diggle comment on how much of a fuck up that was *solely for the audience's sake*. They had no idea it was Laurel doing it, they were talking to us.

Edited November 14, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Shanna]

Lying to lance has enabled them to put Sara's murder on the back burner actually, because they aren't cops. If Quentin was investigating he could be throwing them leads to investigate.

I am finding this season lacking direction. I think this is because it's supposed to be all about finding who killed Sara and I know the answer - the writers. I can't get lost in the show because I know it's actually all about laurel. It's like the whole storyline broke the third wall and it's permanently broken.

[insubordination]

 

I think this is because it's supposed to be all about finding who killed Sara and I know the answer - the writers

 

It's like the whole storyline broke the third wall and it's permanently broken.

 

That's just what I must have been thinking and couldn't articulate. I'm not watching a fictional show anymore, but watching the showrunners/writers/EPs trying to salvage their lead female character. This can't have been their plan all along surely. Why not have Laurel train throughout the series if this is where they were going?  Instead we get the character that was working - Sara - (despite the horrible sister-swapping and lukewarm hook-up - she was sympathetic and kick arse) thrown onto a dumpster and Laurel gets a magical jacket.  This is not proper TV it's just a lot of insta-nonsense. The more I think about Shado, Moira and Sara, the more pissed off I get.

 

And I know this was said over and over, but why couldn't Blood have been the big bad last year? The actor was competent and there was a lot more to explore there - an evil politician who seems like a good guy. I would have enjoyed a human villain.

 

 They rushed the Slade stuff and made the character look stupid (but MIRIKURU!) and kept retconning all the island events. Then over the hiatus (as mentioned )Roy was Insta integrated into the team, Oliver and Felicity fell in love,and Thea became a Ninja (trained by a guy who had already died) in only a matter of months and all of this off-screen.  Grrrrr this show!   What are they trying to achieve here? Cos it's been lacking in entertainment for a while, not to mention humour.

Edited November 14, 2014 by insubordination

[Pyramid]

I am finding this season lacking direction. I think this is because it's supposed to be all about finding who killed Sara and I know the answer - the writers. I can't get lost in the show because I know it's actually all about laurel. It's like the whole storyline broke the third wall and it's permanently broken.

That's the problem for me. There was no in-story reason for it. We know that the writers killed Sara to kick-start Laurel's story. Which had been treading water since S1 Ep1. And as someone up thread said, the solution to her problem was supposed to be fixed by her finding out about Oliver's secret, and becoming folded into the plot. But all that's happened is that she's still separate from Team Arrow, but now when she isn't hogging valuable screen time from Oliver, you know, the Arrow of Arrow, she's blundering about the Arrow Cave barking orders.

Which I realise means she's fecked coming and going, but that's corner the writers have written themselves into and no amount of "who killed Sara " pointlessness is going to fix that.

[looptab]

 

If Ray doesn't click with viewers, then most likely next season will see the introduction of someone with the initials E.R.

Who would that be? Sorry if this is obvious I'm not up to date with discussion in here :)

[somewhereother]

That's just what I must have been thinking and couldn't articulate. I'm not watching a fictional show anymore, but watching the showrunners/writers/EPs trying to salvage their lead female character.

I agree wholeheartedly. I used to get taken out of the narrative just in laurel scenes, But now entire episodes have a similar effect (are laureled?). I am finding it difficult to engage with a narrative that only makes sense with the knowledge of an external rationale (laurel lance = black canary). The constant lamp shading of the character does not ease the sensation of displacement. That's what I watch community for, It doesn't work for me on arrow.

All that being said, I'm not sure how much my bitterness is just displaced embarrassment that I recommended this show to so many people back in s2.

[tv echo]

Who would that be? Sorry if this is obvious I'm not up to date with discussion in here :)

In the old DC comics,

Felicity Smoak was a much older woman who was the manager of a computer software company and who had a romantic relationship with a reporter named Ed Raymond.  They eventually married.  Ed had a son named Ronnie who was Firestorm.

Edited November 14, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

Who would that be? Sorry if this is obvious I'm not up to date with discussion in here :)

Edward Raymond? Dude Felicity married in the comics.

Wouldn't THAT throw a spanner in the works...

Edited November 14, 2014 by Limbo