Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Morrigan2575]

18 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think that was the plan going in, but I'm wondering now if they'll use next year's crossover to undo/redo the future timeline just because the reaction to it now is so universally negative.

Same. It's a quick fix that they can claim was planned all along (since this year's crossover setup Crisis for next year).

I really think Arrow's lasting memory (at least for me), good ideas, crappy execution

Edited December 30, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[kes0704]

The flash forwards could’ve been okay but the problem is that I currently have minimal interest in the characters they’re choosing to focus on.  I cannot stand Dinah and she’s the character they chose to bridge the gap between the present day and the future, which means I get a double dose. Grown William is kind of dull and and I’m not really sure why I should care about adult Zoe when I barely saw kid Zoe. With Roy, I can take or leave him and with Maya, my level of interest will be determined by who she is revealed to be. 

If everything in the flash forwards is a big misdirect and it ultimately means nothing, I’m probably going to be annoyed that they wasted time on it.  If they try to undo it in the crossover, I’m probably going to be annoyed that they wasted the remaining episodes of S7, plus however many episodes of S8, on a story that ultimately goes nowhere. 

If they learned anything out of the S6 team war debacle, it should be that the audience won’t just go along with a storyline that makes little sense and isn’t well executed. 

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I really think Arrow's lasting memory (at least for me), good ideas, crappy execution

 

I would change it good ideas they saw other shows and movies do and have success with, executed crappy when adapted on Arrow. 

Edited December 30, 2018 by Mary0360

[statsgirl]

The dislike of the misery porn this season seems to be pretty widespread.  I wonder if Beth's going to temper the writing of the future episodes. Because while the flash forwards seemed like a good idea, right now they really suck.

[SmallScreenDiva]

There do seem to be a lot of complaints about the bleaknessof the flash forwards and the misery porn but I wonder if Beth and the writers are gonna pay attention. I mean, Arrow seems to be doing OK ratings wise, coming in second tied with Riverdale on a new night. There may be complaints but viewers don’t seem to be going away. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

For me, I actually could never get past the misery of where Batman Beyond left the characters I cared about.  I tried to watch and think of it as an Elsewords or a possible future, not a set reality for the year I watched but I just couldn't bring myself to go back after the hiatus.  It was ruining all the current day Batman stuff for me knowing it was supposedly all for naught.

<snip>

 I think the nature of the Batman universe not having to bow to aging players since comics are immortal and ever new franchise can recast, made me resent the storyline that sacrificed the lives and histories of favorite characters for someone new all the more because it was just a narrative choice, not a necessity.  And I feel what the FF's are doing with Arrow fall into that category as well.  It does seem the FF's are only there for shock value because so far the next generation are still not taking the lead, that falls to Dinah and Roy and yes William, but he's following around Dinah and Roy. And the big mystery is what is Felicity up to. 

The focus remains on our existing cast.  So the FF's and their misery can't justified as being needed to serve the next generation that must take over the show and there was nothing that made them do the FF except the narrative choice but again, I can't see what benefit it really serves except as a negative hype for stoking current day fears.  Except in order to do that, they have made the set future worse than anything that might possibly happen in the present.  Or we've just been completely mislead and as pointed out and thus were wasting our time.

To the Batman Beyond, it was TOTALLY A “What if?” As far as I’m concerned. I don’t have enough words to express my hate and rage at all the ungrateful, petulant, whiny assholes who ended up blaming Bruce for the choices THEY fucking made to beg/trick/nag work with him. Dick Grayson/Original!Robin/Nightwing being the exception. I will NEVER believe that Bruce and Babs had a thing (Bruce Timm admitted it was wrong and that’s why he did it!🤬🤬🤬🤬) and Babs was just jealous Bruce chose fighting crime over her whiny ass. Same for Terry’s whining in ”Epilogue.”🤬🤬🤬🤬 KEVIN!FUCKING!CONROY! was the only reason I watched that shit. Because even 50 years later, even without the cape and cowl, Bruce was STILL  a BADASS. He IS BATMAN. Bruce Wayne was the mask.

As for the flash forwards here? Complete waste of my time watching since Beth has states it’s a fixed thing. Like others have said, and I think I mentioned it in one of the episode threads—WHY should I bother watching?

[sjsyed]

I don’t know if I’m allowed to talk about previous seasons here (if not, feel free to remove).  I’ve been going through Arrow withdrawal and I’ve started binging the show from the beginning.  I’m already in season 4, and I realized how much I *hated* the whole “you lied to me about your son (even though the son’s mother made you) so that means I can’t trust you so goodbye.”

 Felicity had been one of my favorite characters, and I was glad they ended up together, but I thought Felicity was such a judgements little princess throughout that whole ordeal.  She said multiple times how she knew Samantha put Oliver in an impossible choice, and then basically said “I don’t care.”  She acknowledged that the nature of Oliver’s life meant that he would sometimes have to keep things from her (like every other person who works in law enforcement) and again said “I don’t care.”

What on earth was Oliver supposed to do?  Risk not being able to see his son because Felicity was too insecure about their relationship?  Report back every single thing he was doing so she knew exactly what he was doing every single moment of every single day?

Ugh.  I COULD  NOT STAND HER.  What a ginormous hypocrite.  Like she doesn’t hide things from her mother?  I mean, aren’t mother’s and daughters supposed to have an open and honest relationship too?  Felicity basically threw a temper trantrum because Oliver wanted to get to know his own son.

Edited December 31, 2018 by sjsyed

[olicityfan25]

So let me just ask you (I don't know if you're a man or a woman) anyway if you're a woman what would you think of your soon to be husband keeping something like that from you? If you were to be married to that person and then they told you and you involuntarily became a step parent boom like that, what would you react like? 

Her whole thing wasn't about him having a son it's him lying to her about it. Think of it logically. There was no reason to keep this from her. Thea knew, Barry knew and Malcolm. All three of those people made it WAY more dangerous knowing than Felicity would ever have. It was a stupid plot most likely used to make Felicity look bad. I have my opinions about that. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by olicityfan25

[Mary0360]

2 hours ago, sjsyed said:

I don’t know if I’m allowed to talk about previous seasons here (if not, feel free to remove).  I’ve been going through Arrow withdrawal and I’ve started binging the show from the beginning.  I’m already in season 4, and I realized how much I *hated* the whole “you lied to me about your son (even though the son’s mother made you) so that means I can’t trust you so goodbye.”

 Felicity had been one of my favorite characters, and I was glad they ended up together, but I thought Felicity was such a judgements little princess throughout that whole ordeal.  She said multiple times how she knew Samantha put Oliver in an impossible choice, and then basically said “I don’t care.”  She acknowledged that the nature of Oliver’s life meant that he would sometimes have to keep things from her (like every other person who works in law enforcement) and again said “I don’t care.”

What on earth was Oliver supposed to do?  Risk not being able to see his son because Felicity was too insecure about their relationship?  Report back every single thing he was doing so she knew exactly what he was doing every single moment of every single day?

Ugh.  I COULD  NOT STAND HER.  What a ginormous hypocrite.  Like she doesn’t hide things from her mother?  I mean, aren’t mother’s and daughters supposed to have an open and honest relationship too?  Felicity basically threw a temper trantrum because Oliver wanted to get to know his own son.

Umm Felicity had no problem with Oliver having a son. Which is why she's practically raised and treated William like her own son ever since her and Oliver reunited and got married and formed a family.

 

What she did have a problem with is that Oliver lied to her, kept something from her and cut her out of a huge part of his life despite the fact that she was planning on marrying him. And he basically was planning to marry Felicity with no intention of ever telling her about his secret child that he was visiting behind her back and lying to her face about it when he would make trips to central city to visit him.  All of this happening at same time that she was also paralysed and had a reappearance from a father that abandoned her and then basically was working with the guy that paralysed her (from memory). A marriage without trust isn't worth much. And Oliver was intending to build a marriage on a lie and lack of trust. 

 

And I think it's increadibly unfair (and kinda sexist) to criticise Felicitys reaction to something Oliver did to her that was wrong. Felicity didn't lie to him about something fundamentally important, she didn't keep something from him that was fundamentally important, and she didn't betray his trust over something fundamentally important. If she felt "insecure" about her relationship it's because Oliver put her position to feel that way through his own actions. 

 

Yes he didnt intentionally set out to hurt Felicity and yes Samantha was putting him in a crappy position but he didn't have to let Samantha call the shots, he didn't have to lie to Felicity. He had other options available to him. He picked the easiest and most hurtful option. And he paid the consequences of that. 

 

Its again unfair that Felicity not wanting to be lied to, wanting a relationship built on trust and to be respected leaves her being labelled incorrectly a hypocrite or being accused of throwing a temper tantrum. 

 

I nean if Oliver can lie to her about something like that, what else would have have been willing to lie to her? 

[Mellowyellow]

I would have burnt his bow, his loft, and his belongings before I left him for trying to marry me while he had a secret kid on the side. A kid that would mean LEGAL repercussions for me once I married him. DON'T get me started on what this could mean in terms of child support and inheritance later on in life because HE HAS A SECRET KID HE KEPT FROM ME.

But your mileage may vary, I don't like (and am not) a door mat kind of woman. Frankly Felicity was too soft on his ass.

[Mary0360]

15 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I would have burnt his bow, his loft, and his belongings before I left him for trying to marry me while he had a secret kid on the side. A kid that would mean LEGAL repercussions for me once I married him. DON'T get me started on what this could mean in terms of child support and inheritance later on in life because HE HAS A SECRET KID HE KEPT FROM ME.

But your mileage may vary, I don't like (and am not) a door mat kind of woman. Frankly Felicity was too soft on his ass.

 

Too add on to this, I think the thing that made it worst was that not only did he lie to Felicity but he chose to lie to her over other people in his life. Once Thea, Malcolm and Barry knew about William he'd essentially broke Samantha's "no one can know" condition anyway, and yet he continued to keep it from Felicity and presumably would have never told her despite the fact that other people in her life knew about William.

 

And remembering Felicity did seem willing to support Oliver and try and work on their relationship despite being ambushed. She immeadiately put aside her own feelings to focus on saving William, offered emotional support to Oliver because he needed despite her own feelings of betrayal and was gracious and supportive towards Samantha despite the fact that Samantha instigated their problems (and didn't really offer any apologies or regrets ). 

 

What actually tipped Felicity over was that even after discovering Oliver has lied to her betrayed her trust and kept something significant from her, he continued to only discuss his feelings about his son and being a father with Diggle, Thea and even Vixen who he barely knew rather then talk to Felicity his fiancee. And then he sent William away without including Felicity in the decision. Felicity wasn't even mad about the lie itself but  that she couldn't marry someone who didn't respect her enough to include her fully into his life. 

[Mellowyellow]

Well said @Mary0360! I am always astounded at the criticism levelled at Felicity by "fans" and non fan alike for her decision in S4.

How was she supposed to take it? How is a woman supposed to take it in general when being lied to like that?

I would have gone Jessica Huang nuclear on his ass and like you said Felicity was nothing but gracious considering she was also vulnerable and could not walk at the time all this was thrown in her face.

It always baffles me. Do the people who are mad at Felicity get walked all over in their real life relationships or is this just hypocrisy levelled at the character? 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, sjsyed said:

What on earth was Oliver supposed to do?  Risk not being able to see his son because Felicity was too insecure about their relationship?  Report back every single thing he was doing so she knew exactly what he was doing every single moment of every single day?

He was supposed to tell her that he had a kid in Central City that he wanted to get to know but whose mother didn't trust him and didn't want him to tell anyone in his life about because she didn't trust him. He was supposed to tell her that because they were going to get married he wanted to be honest with her, and that he hoped once he'd been a consistent, safe presence in William's life that Samantha would allow William to meet Felicity and become part of their lives. He was given the choice between lying to two people: one he trusted with his secret identity, who was his partner in life and in vigilante-ing, who would definitely find out about his lying at some point; and one who had kept him from his son for ten years, had lied to him about a miscarriage, and had lied to him about paternity straight to his face, who would never know that he told Felicity when she asked him not to. That he's treated as somehow not having a choice when he had a pretty easy one IMO is baffling to me. 

Especially since I mostly see him regarded as doing the right and honorable thing when keeping that secret from who he did for as long as he did ultimately resulted in William getting kidnapped. He kept that secret after Malcolm told him he knew and was going to make Oliver pay for disbanding the League, and he kept it after Thea told him there was a direct paper trail between Oliver and William that the wife of the guy who'd tried to kill them all multiple times that year was definitely going to find out about during opposition research while she was running for mayor. But he said nothing to Felicity or anyone on his team to actively try to protect his own kid, he just kept lying for...whatever reason and still came out of the whole situation with lots of people thinking he was the wronged party. All I could think about was how yes, Felicity should definitely break off that engagement and also reconsider having kids with the guy because he was such an awful and neglectful father. 

It does make me happy that when the plot no longer called for him to be a flaming moron about the whole thing that he actually turned out to be a relatively good father. And that despite thinking he was dumber than a box of hair and about as interesting, I really came to enjoy William and his relationship with Oliver (and Felicity) in Season 6.

Edited December 31, 2018 by apinknightmare

[SmallScreenDiva]

47 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

He was given the choice between lying to two people: one he trusted with his secret identity, who was his partner in life and in vigilante-ing, who would definitely find out about his lying at some point; and one who had kept him from his son for ten years, had lied to him about a miscarriage, and had lied to him about paternity straight to his face, who would never know that he told Felicity when she asked him not to. That he's treated as somehow not having a choice when he had a pretty easy one IMO is baffling to me. 

THIS! That anyone can watch that arc and not see that this is the simple choice Oliver faced and that Oliver made the wrong one is baffling to me. I hate the baby mama drama because of how much of an idiot Oliver was made to sell the conflict. But that’s Arrow for you. Felicity is a saint for taking his idiot ass back. I would have been Angela Bassett in “Waiting to Exhale.”

[Mellowyellow]

5 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I would have been Angela Bassett in “Waiting to Exhale.”

Is that the meme where she burns a car??? I LOVE THAT MEME!!!!!!!

[SmallScreenDiva]

8 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Is that the meme where she burns a car??? I LOVE THAT MEME!!!!!!!

It’s an actual scene from the movie

Edited December 31, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva

[GHScorpiosRule]

I may, I might, possibly, forgive this show for saddling me with MarbleMushMouth if they bring in Michael Rosenbaum as a villain next season. And no, not as Lex.

[tv echo]

As this season has shown, when Oliver went to prison, Felicity was the one who had to protect, feed and care for his son. So planning to marry someone without telling her that you have a child (thereby unwittingly making her a mother) is a big deal.

Edited December 31, 2018 by tv echo

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

 Felicity is a saint for taking his idiot ass back. I would have been Angela Bassett in “Waiting to Exhale.”

All of this rehashing of Olivers season 4 stupidity is just making me once again angry over the fact that he dared give Felicity even the slightest judgement and grief over carrying and firing a gun in 7x08. Like boy- do you realise how fucking lucky you are to even be married after the amount of shit you pulled on Felicity over the years that she rarely judged you on or willingly forgave? 

[insomniadreams88]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

A kid that would mean LEGAL repercussions for me once I married him. DON'T get me started on what this could mean in terms of child support and inheritance later on in life because HE HAS A SECRET KID HE KEPT FROM ME.

Yep. Remember in season 4, they acted like Felicity was the only one in the relationship with money. She funded his campaign. She funded the team. What if after Oliver and Felicity got married, Samantha decided she wanted child support? Going off of how they acted about their financial situation, Felicity could have easily found out about William when she had to pay Samantha. . 

The show kept acting like Samantha was a good person when she wasn't. She hid Oliver's son from him for years. She told him she had a miscarriage. If Oliver hadn't seen them in CC, he may have never found out (or may have when Thea found the check?). What if Malcolm found out on his own, told Darhk, and then William was kidnapped? Again, Oliver would have only found out if Darhk told him. Samantha wasn't even going to tell Oliver his son had been kidnapped. He had to reach out to her when she knew first (and I think for a couple days?).

Yet you know if Felicity had done the same thing -- say she'd had a kid and given him/her up for adoption/left him/her with the father (assuming it wasn't Cooper/that whole history) -- she would've been vilified.

11 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

All of this rehashing of Olivers season 4 stupidity is just making me once again angry over the fact that he dared give Felicity even the slightest judgement and grief over carrying and firing a gun in 7x08. Like boy- do you realise how fucking lucky you are to even be married after the amount of shit you pulled on Felicity over the years that she rarely judged you on or willingly forgave? 

Yep. That's why I think it would've been better if Felicity brought up the fact that she had NO ONE watching out for her. It looks like Diggle took ARGUS protection off Felicity the moment she walked out of ARGUS in 702 and he never even bothered to check in on how she was after. Dinah has been more concerned about Laurel's safety (the safety of the woman who killed her BF and was the reason she and the rest of NTA were willing to physically hurt OTA -- and did hurt Diggle -- last season). 

Instead of Oliver being upset about Felicity having a gun, I wish the conversation had included why she has all these security measures in their apartment. He could've still been upset, even though he should think about everything Felicity has accepted about him in the past, but it would've made for a better conversation. 

Oliver had all these people in his corner when he did stupid stuff (as long as they weren't affected, like Diggle was mad at him after S3, which was understandable, but 100% on his side for the BMD). Felicity had NO ONE, and then the one person who should've been on her side had a problem with what she was doing to keep herself alive. 

(Let me just add that I'm still so, so bitter about what Arrow has done to the Felicity/Diggle friendship and that I'm bitter that I don't expect them to address any of that.) 

(Wow, I don't think I realized just how bitter I still am about that, since I just went on that tangent.)

[GHScorpiosRule]

I can forgive Oliver's disbelief at Felicity having a gun and going to Anatoly, since one: he's fresh out of prison where he was psychologically tortured and beaten repeatedly; and two, this is the most egregious (and which I blame Beth and the writers)--that he doesn't know that she was ALONE. That Digg abandoned her. She no longer had the "protection" of A.R.G.U.S.

So I'm going to give him some slack here. I would love it if he finds out she was abandoned and in the worst way, by his BROTHER and BEST FRIEND. And to see him go Arrow on Digg's ass. 

But I also want a horsie. And this show doesn't roll this way. Except for letting assholes betray and come down on Oliver. That's okay.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I’m cleaning out my DVR so I’ve been rewatching some of the episodes before I delete them. I just saw that scene again where Tuna tells Felicity to go back to witness protection. In and of itself it was bad because, hello, she almost got killed in witness protection. But JH being the horrible actress she is made it sound so dismissive, like Felicity was a fly she couldn’t wait to flick off. Or maybe that wasn’t bad acting, I guess it makes sense for Tuna being impatient because BS and Felicity were asking for help. Anyway, I just felt so bad for Felicity having “friends” like that. I know Arrow is just gonna ignore that because these writers prefer forced instead of organic storylines and reasoning. Oliver made his grand speech so I’m gonna guess everything will be hunky-dory, until they need to emphasize Felicity is evil 🙄

[statsgirl]

14 hours ago, sjsyed said:

What on earth was Oliver supposed to do?  Risk not being able to see his son because Felicity was too insecure about their relationship?  Report back every single thing he was doing so she knew exactly what he was doing every single moment of every single day?

Take Samantha to court to get his parental rights if she was going to keep trying to keep William from him.  Stand up to her like a man instead of a wimp.

What made it 1000 x times worse was that Felicity was in hospital, paralyzed because of her association with Oliver, and not only was he not visiting her, he was sneaking off to Central City to see William.

3 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Anyway, I just felt so bad for Felicity having “friends” like that.

I don't know why the show likes making Felicity friendless so much of the time when her friends should be rallying around her. They're even doing it in the Flash forwards with Dinah, Roy and William (someone keep me from punching him) dumping on her.

But I'm really sick of it.

[insomniadreams88]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I don't know why the show likes making Felicity friendless so much of the time when her friends should be rallying around her. They're even doing it in the Flash forwards with Dinah, Roy and William (someone keep me from punching him) dumping on her.

But I'm really sick of it.

Same. And then when she has friends, they take them away. (Rory. Alena.)

It’s so sad that right now, the closest thing Felicity has to a friend in the present is Laurel, someone who has tried to kill her multiple times. And in the FFs, I guess we can assume Black Star was/is friendly with her based on what we saw from her reaction to news of Felicity’s “death.” 

Even with several people around in both times that should be her friend. 

(This doesn’t mean I want them to make Curtis her friend (again). I’m already bitter enough.)

[Mary0360]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I can forgive Oliver's disbelief at Felicity having a gun and going to Anatoly, since one: he's fresh out of prison where he was psychologically tortured and beaten repeatedly; and two, this is the most egregious (and which I blame Beth and the writers)--that he doesn't know that she was ALONE. That Digg abandoned her. She no longer had the "protection" of A.R.G.U.S.

If Olivers reaction was simply a symptom of his  time in prison being beaten etc then how does that explain that he didn't react the same way when he saw other people with guns? And that he himself went back to his own violent Vigilante ways to protect himself when he got out of prison. It  wasn't him being gun and violence shy after prison. It was him specifically being judgemental of Felicity  herself having a gun to protect her. And it's not the first time he has acted like that towards Felicity either. In season 5 he also over reacted to steps Felicity took and acted like some of her choices would result in a stain on her soul.

The only difference being that at least Oliver seemed to be coming from a place of genuine concern for Felicity where as in 7x08 he didn't show any concern for why Felicity felt the need for a gun, just objected to the fact that she had one and was using it. And he's still yet to show any real concern for why Felicity feels the way she does and how her time away from him has affected her. Even as romantic as his speech was in the crossover it still didn't address that.

I get that Oliver was shocked to see Felicity react that way and how that would have been confronting for him given that his absence in prison meant that he wasn't there for a lot of Felicitys path to more extreme behaviour (even though I still don't think it was that out of norm from what Team Arrow or even Felicity herself has done in the past). However he WAS aware that Diaz had gotten to Felicity, he SAW the bruises and cuts on her face. So prison didn't leave him completely unaware either.

In 7x08 for the most part he prioritised his own feelings about how Felicitys action made him feel over Felicitys feelings.  And I think it stems to a deeper issue of that fact that he, and even Diggle to an extent, idolise a pure version of Felicity that's just not realistic after everything she's experienced. 

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

And I think it stems to a deeper issue of that fact that he, and even Diggle to an extent, idolise a pure version of Felicity that's just not realistic after everything she's experienced. 

He idolises the girl with the red pen I think. The cutesy one with the cardigans that made him smile. 

I would love for them to discuss this. Now that's somewhere you can spend screentime instead of on *insert expletive about Dinah*.

I think he does accept her for who she is and he does go with it once he gets over his hand wringing. His romantic speech confirmed this. He also did ask her how they could move forward the ep before that. But somewhere in his head he likes seeing her as the red pen girl. Possibly because there is less guilt for him that way since he crashed into her life and upturned it. 

[Mary0360]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

I think he does accept her for who she is and he does go with it once he gets over his hand wringing. His romantic speech confirmed this. He also did ask her how they could move forward the ep before that. But somewhere in his head he likes seeing her as the red pen girl. Possibly because there is less guilt for him that way since he crashed into her life and upturned it. 

Yeah I agree he's accepting of her but it's a weird situation. I think because Felicity was the first person he could even see as a person when he came back from Lian Yu he's protective of that version of Felicity that any change in her that seems closer to him is threatening to him. That's why I do think the crossover speech was necessary in that it was Oliver accepting that he'll love her no matter how she changes and sort of breaking that idolised glow in his love for Felicity and loving her in a more realistic deeper meaningful honest way.

 

I just hope that going forward it's followed with action by Oliver, and in relation to her security fears in 7x08 by giving her the tools and or support to feel safe again after what happened. 

[way2interested]

Tbh I don't see an idolization or a judgment problem. It seemed more like a whiplash from a Felicity who doesn't usually use guns (even in 522 she made a joke about hating the gun she was prepared to shoot Oliver with when she thought he was an intruder and 403 being extenuating circumstances) and usually has no qualms about wanting to defend herself as long as Oliver was there (from all the way back in 121 when she was ultimately fine with going undercover in a mob casino since Oliver was outside and as recent for them as 622 when they both reasoned that her going into the field is fine because of the "confidence that Oliver could protect her" and tons of moments in between) to someone who felt the need to try to obsessively secure their own home (after Oliver single-handedly protected them against multiple intruders in 622)  and secretly carry a gun and try to straight up murder someone (my bitterness is more that they never talked about her wanting to go Inigo Montoya on Diaz), with Oliver having no hint at this change other than their 4 minute conversation in 701 where Felicity was just arguing for the idea of coming out of witsec and helping to stop Diaz herself. Added with that is Felicity condemning herself out of nowhere for him (where Felicity's already made the "the old me wasn't strong enough" line in 706, so none of this is new to the audience, but it is definitely new for Oliver), and then it becomes super clear that Felicity has changed (per her own perspective of things) and Oliver is trying to adjust, which was the whole point of the A plot in 708 anyway. Then you've got the end of 708 where he tries to get a handle on how to move on with the changes in both his relationship and his working life and 709 they reunite.

All this to say I'm not 100% a-ok on how it was handled. Ultimately, obviously they should have spent more time on it in 708, but Arrow's gonna Arrow.

[Genki]

My head-cannon is less Oliver being judgy of Felicity, or believing that she should not have a gun, and more Oliver feeling guilty and frustrated about leaving Felicity (& William) vulnerable and projecting that onto her (which is something most people are guilty of doing to loved ones). Also there was probably a slight bit of resentment that she wouldn't go back into witness protection like he requested her to, and now it appears things have turned out for the worse. Plus adjusting to being outside in the real world and having some unexpected vulnerabilities. I like this better as an explanation because it's human and explains away some crappiness, in character actions/reactions.

I also think Oliver is upset that Felicity has "changed" because it has happened due to a decision he unilaterally made for them, and there's the guilt of being the cause of the events that have brought about this change. This "new" Felicity means she suffered and he was helpless to protect her (& William) and that is also means that now he's back, she still isn't trusting him to protect her, which had always been something she does, in the past.

He is also, IMO, freaking out that that she is dealing with people like Anatoly and Laurel who are unreliable allies, plus she has move-on/grown in a significant way and all without him. Also Felicity is beating up on herself which Oliver is disputing (badly delivered lines here IMO) since, for him, "old Felicity" isn't weak and Oliver fell in love with her, in spite of himself and because she wasn't weak. Also I assume he doesn't realise how crappy a support system Diggle/Argus/NTA were for her....i'm so very bitter this probably won't be addressed.

I think if the scene was directed/acted differently it could easily match my head cannon, even with the same dialogue, hence the I just want to think the show refused to spend the proper time to explain it, for cross-over and plot related reasons like, "lets make it look like there is trouble for Olicity".

YMMV but I'm happy to have this head-cannon to get me to the point that I'm OK with the reconciliation and even the additional not telling Felicity in Crisis Cross-over, cause guilt can make you do additional shitty things, and this could be why even Oliver was beating up on himself as "dark".

I'm bitter that a couple of tweaks would have made this easily on-screen cannon, but until they show some direct contradiction, i'm going with it.  To be frank, I think they have done worse in the past, LoA/Al-Sahim and pretending to murder them plot and pretty much all of Season 5 are worse for me.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Genki

[KenyaJ]

Headcannon accepted. I'm mostly bitter that they intentionally left things unsaid and barely scratched the surface of the emotions between them just to make us worry that they were in trouble so it could be resolved in the cliffhanger. I hoped that when MG was no longer showrunner, he would take his Olicity "tentpoles" with him, but the new regime is still writing to plot instead of character. It's beyond frustrating.

[Mary0360]

On 02/01/2019 at 2:18 AM, Genki said:

My head-cannon is less Oliver being judgy of Felicity, or believing that she should not have a gun, and more Oliver feeling guilty and frustrated about leaving Felicity (& William) vulnerable and projecting that onto her (which is something most people are guilty of doing to loved ones). Also there was probably a slight bit of resentment that she wouldn't go back into witness protection like he requested her to, and now it appears things have turned out for the worse. Plus adjusting to being outside in the real world and having some unexpected vulnerabilities. I like this better as an explanation because it's human and explains away some crappiness, in character actions/reactions.

I also think Oliver is upset that Felicity has "changed" because it has happened due to a decision he unilaterally made for them, and there's the guilt of being the cause of the events that have brought about this change. This "new" Felicity means she suffered and he was helpless to protect her (& William) and that is also means that now he's back, she still isn't trusting him to protect her, which had always been something she does, in the past.

He is also, IMO, freaking out that that she is dealing with people like Anatoly and Laurel who are unreliable allies, plus she has move-on/grown in a significant way and all without him. Also Felicity is beating up on herself which Oliver is disputing (badly delivered lines here IMO) since, for him, "old Felicity" isn't weak and Oliver fell in love with her, in spite of himself and because she wasn't weak. Also I assume he doesn't realise how crappy a support system Diggle/Argus/NTA were for her....i'm so very bitter this probably won't be addressed.

I think if the scene was directed/acted differently it could easily match my head cannon, even with the same dialogue, hence the I just want to think the show refused to spend the proper time to explain it, for cross-over and plot related reasons like, "lets make it look like there is trouble for Olicity".

YMMV but I'm happy to have this head-cannon to get me to the point that I'm OK with the reconciliation and even the additional not telling Felicity in Crisis Cross-over, cause guilt can make you do additional shitty things, and this could be why even Oliver was beating up on himself as "dark".

I'm bitter that a couple of tweaks would have made this easily on-screen cannon, but until they show some direct contradiction, i'm going with it.  To be frank, I think they have done worse in the past, LoA/Al-Sahim and pretending to murder them plot and pretty much all of Season 5 are worse for me.

I really like this head canon. I'm just not sure if it's what the writers were thinking though since they had that line where Oliver said how many times is he suppose to apologise about not telling her about going to prison. 

[tennisgurl]

Really, with the whole “not the girl with the red pen” argument is easy to head cannon, but also frustrating, as it could so easily have been such a great scene and way to develop Oliver and Felicity, as a couple and as characters. Felicity feels like she was “weak” when she was a cute IT girl, and her “weakness” meant that she couldn’t protect her family from Diaz. Oliver has always been afraid of his “darkness” affecting other people, and has a guilt complex the size of Texas, and he would feel guilty about seeming to “infect” the person he thinks of as his light in the storm with his supposed darkness. Then they could realize that neither of them are right, and Felicity was never weak, and Oliver would realize Felicity is a grown person who has made her own choices, and she has had to make hard choices, but she’s dealing with it. Or something like that. It’s all right there, and they just...stopped before they really got into what the issues were. But, I guess that screen time needed to go to Dinah being smug while puckering her lips or Curtis complaining or something. 

[way2interested]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

But, I guess that screen time needed to go to Dinah being smug while puckering her lips or Curtis complaining or something. 

The real problem with that though is that it's not Dinah or Curtis who took likely direct time that could have been focused on Oliver and Felicity, it's Blackstar, who had 3 scenes that included an extended fight scene and extra exposition dialogue, all that for the span of 708, not counting anything down the line, didn't culminate into anything (the only new information learned is that someone else knew what Felicity was doing, which was already guessed, more vague description of the future past, and what the mark of four was, which was a whole separate scene that didn't even need her). Curtis was only in 1 maybe two scenes with a handful of lines and take Dinah out of the episode and the plot and the scene breakdowns would have been exactly the same (just have Oliver putting on his Sherlock hat from s1/the prison arc and figure the Fuller VOTW plot himself with the help of Rene who helps him meet the new GA and then have him give a deal to the mayor that he'll become a consultant for the police so he can be "legal" and that the mayor doesn't get a pr nightmare by trying to arrest a guy who was just honored after getting out of prison, and just have Blackstar snarking at Roy or Zoe instead and then have Roy tell William about the mark of four), still not giving anymore substantial time to Oliver and Felicity's plot than what was already given.

This is all just from the problem the writers have at not being able to balance out the cast (BS. Curtis, and Roy didn't even do anything this whole episode, Diggle only had a few scenes, Rene and Dinah didn't have their own plots, and there still isn't enough time for everything) or their own plots.

[BkWurm1]

This is one of the problems of the FF's.  When they take time to feed the FF's when we need it more to develop present day stuff.  

I think they need to stop treating the flashforwards as a B plot or C plot and only insert the SPECIFIC scenes they actually need to advance the FF scenes.  Stop trying to write an episode arc.  Just get in, show Blackstar fighting in the background with them already knowing she's the one they are looking for, have William flash money, have his chat with her and go.  Then save talking about going to see Rene for next week or rather just show up and talk to Rene next week.  When they are there talking to Rene, we'll figure it out.  

So much of the FF's are filler already.   

[insomniadreams88]

They'd probably also save time in the FFs/episodes if they'd stop saying how evil Felicity became, how dead she totally is and how those plans are definitely hers. 

[way2interested]

34 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think they need to stop treating the flashforwards as a B plot or C plot and only insert the SPECIFIC scenes they actually need to advance the FF scenes.  Stop trying to write an episode arc.  Just get in, show Blackstar fighting in the background with them already knowing she's the one they are looking for, have William flash money, have his chat with her and go.  Then save talking about going to see Rene for next week or rather just show up and talk to Rene next week.  When they are there talking to Rene, we'll figure it out.  

What they should have done was no Blackstar interaction at all, say she's busy fighting or something, find her hideout that gives some exposition out of the way (hey, she's a thief who knew Felicity), have the mark of four explanation scene, decide to go to Rene, meet her officially next time around (presuming that she's in all of the FF from here on out). The problem with that is that with no actual midseason finale and a prison release episode right before they wanted focused all on Oliver, they had to stuff what would be two episodes worth of FF (Blackstar intro and mystery hints/journey set up) into one, so character intro, mystery reveals, and 7b set up all get stuffed into one. 

Ideally, they would have had the FF story for 708 as two, one for 708 (which would probably have been the Blackstar intro) and one for 709 (mark of four reveal, the plan to destroy the city might still be in motion, deciding to go to Rene), or they should have spaced it out a bit better concerning the crossover was now 709 instead, but idk what goes on for planning this stuff.

Hey, if it's ultimately the crossover's fault for messing up scheduling, that technically means it can still totally be Barry's fault @BunsenBurner. 

[kes0704]

5 hours ago, way2interested said:

Ideally, they would have had the FF story for 708 as two, one for 708 (which would probably have been the Blackstar intro) and one for 709 (mark of four reveal, the plan to destroy the city might still be in motion, deciding to go to Rene), or they should have spaced it out a bit better concerning the crossover was now 709 instead, but idk what goes on for planning this stuff.

I’m assuming they would’ve known when planning out the season that 709 would be the crossover. If that is the case, then they could’ve considered shortening the prison arc a little and reduce it from seven episodes to six episodes. The prison storyline still would’ve had weight to it if it ended in 706 and it would’ve given them more time to play out all of the reveals by spreading them across 707 and 708 before launching into the crossover. 

Some of prison parts really felt like Oliver was wandering from one part of the prison to another part of the prison. Oliver spent several episodes devising ways to get to a level two in the prison to obtain information about Diaz, only to end up not getting any information about Diaz. 

[Mary0360]

11 minutes ago, kes0704 said:

 

Some of prison parts really felt like Oliver was wandering from one part of the prison to another part of the prison. Oliver spent several episodes devising ways to get to a level two in the prison to obtain information about Diaz, only to end up not getting any information about Diaz. 

So much of this season has felt like they are creating storylines for the sake of filling airtime rather then contributing or developing an overall arch. I often wonder if Arrow would benefit from shorter seasons instead of Legends, who's concept of a new adventure every week wouldn't have as many plot issues that Arrow does with longer seasons

[formerlyfreedom]

It is fine to agree to disagree on opinions; attacks on fellow posters for differing opinions is not acceptable, so please be mindful of tone when posting.

Also, posts have been removed, since this topic is for discussion of  Arrow; this is not a place to dissect other shows or storylines in the CW DC-verse. Thank you.

[Primal Slayer]

I am now very salty all over again about how they handled the whole corrupt Star City storyline in S6, it was so half assed and did they even get the money back? This should've been their No Mans Land with Diaz taking control and having past villains rise up. Especially such a waste of having so many villains teaming up together. 

[tennisgurl]

Diaz is such a weird villain, as he has to almost rewrite the shows whole universe just to justify him as a threat, and yet it was still so rushed and half assed. You suddenly need him to go from some mid level drug dealer to a kingpin that has almost every cop and city official on his payroll practically over night, then they had to add in this whole secret criminal conglomerate that controls the whole country’s crime, then they even had to introduce a whole mercenary organization just to give him back up and keep him around. A lot of it seemed like a straight up retcon in order to make him a somewhat credible threat (and even then, nope), but it was so shoddily done, it just seemed like a desperate scramble to keep this guy around the villains loved, even when he was clearly past his expiration date. It was like they wanted to go full Dark Knight Rises, but just couldn’t commit to it. 

[Mellowyellow]

The writing on this show is one step from my other show where the villain conjured a fridge to fall from the sky to battle the hero. 

Actually I'd probably respect the writers more if they knew their limitations and took themselves less seriously.

[kes0704]

There are so many plot issues and logic leaps when it comes to Diaz. First he was a 3D printing low level drug dealer. But wait, he’s actually a minion of Cayden James who didn’t seem to have any plan to escape Cayden’s master plan to destroy Star City.

Swerve again, he’s now a criminal mastermind who was pulling the strings behind the scenes all along and somehow tricked a computer genius with a doctored photo. How, you ask? Nevermind, everyone just let that slide on by, okay! 

I really do not understand why, out of all the villains they’ve had, they chose to keep Diaz around when a large portion of his characteristion just doesn’t make any sense. The only thing I can think of is that it’s a writing exercise to try and fix what didn’t work in S6, but it isn’t making the character any better. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by kes0704

[Mellowyellow]

I wonder if it's ego, DC told them to keep the 🦎 or they got KA for bargain 🚮 prices 

[TrueMyth]

I understand them wanting to “do something different” and Oliver not eliminating the Big Bad Threat each season is that. I think they just rolled the dice on the totally wrong villian.

With their five year arc, having Chase survive doesn’t give the finality they wanted (though, long lens of time, it would have been a much better call to help bridge the show into a new flashback-free state). In my opinion, the time was ripe for home-grown evil. They probably should have gone with Black Siren. I’m not a huge fan of Katie’s, but the role does suit her acting. The ideal would have been Thea going evil. Season six could have built to her reveal and then... obviously Oliver couldn’t just kill her or even turn her in at the end. Hell, I could even see him going to jail as a result of sacrificing himself for her. Then season seven is coming to terms and ultimately resolving Thea in some way so that Willa could leave the show and Thea would have a very, very good reason not to come back, but still find some peace of mind for Oliver.

I still don’t know all the details about why Willa left the show, but that would be one meaty arc that I think she could have played the hell out of.

[tv echo]

I think that Arrow needs to be willing to change the future if it's doing such gloomy flashforwards. Otherwise, as others have said, what's the point of watching the present day storyline if we know that our fave characters - characters whose journeys we've invested 7 years in - meet such depressing ends 20 years in the future?

I recently finished a long, binge re-watch of all 5 seasons of Fringe. I had forgotten how that show managed to do such a good job of developing a season-long story arc each season, while still having individual episode stories. That show managed to do new and different things with the same characters. It also had a significant flashforward. (Kirk Acevedo was in Fringe but he played a small, supporting role.)

Spoiler

The fifth and final season took place in a bleak, dystopian future. The Fringe team had been frozen in amber for 21 years, so they emerged the same age.  They teamed up with Peter & Olivia's now adult daughter to try to figure out a way to defeat the evil Observers. In the end, the Fringe team had to change the future in order to save not just their daughter but also the entire human race in their universe.

Edited January 4, 2019 by tv echo

[TrueMyth]

The first season of Fringe was a bit procedural for me, but so much of it is foundational to the rest. It’s very impressive storytelling.

Of course, I didn’t go too deep into Fringe fandom because there was less to pick at, ha!

[shantown]

So I'm a bit behind - I just finished S3.E13 (The Canaries) and am completely out of the loop when it comes to behind-the-scenes things. But I have to ask - does/did Katie Cassidy have some sort of blackmail over the producers? I knew there was some Lauren-hate on the boards, and maybe it's just because I've been binge-watching without a week in between each episode to cool off, but her "rise" to being Black Canary is absolutely bonkers. To have everyone fluffing her up so much (I can't BELIEVE they made Felicity say "You have a lightness that Sara never had" COME ON) just seems so awkward. Were there plans earlier on to spin Sara off onto her own show? It just seems so weird when they had Sara there both with connections to Sin and Team Teen Arrow, and to Laurel/Oliver/Tommy and who made friends with Felicity and trained with Diggle... it just seems weird that not only did they drop her, but they shovel Lauren into a character/plot that just didn't fit her. 

Maybe this isn't the right thread, but I wasn't sure where to ask (and rant a little) when I'm catching up on past seasons!

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, shantown said:

(I can't BELIEVE they made Felicity say "You have a lightness that Sara never had" COME ON)

So so so much hate for that scene. 🤯

I don’t think they were planning to spin Sara off into another show originally, although I think Kreisberg tried to claim that after the fact.  It was only after the backlash after her death (and maybe also not getting the support for The Atom spin-off they were originally thinking about) that they decided to resurrect her.  Certainly Caity Lotz didn’t have any idea of coming back - I think she made a joke at a con once that she was surprised they didn’t have a truck run over her just for good measure, to make sure she was well and truly dead.

[Chaser]

I don’t think the intention was to spin off Sara, I believe they wanted to have her replace Laurel as the show’s Black Canary.

Lots of thoughts and theories as to why that didn’t happen.