S04.E01 Smoke

[ghoulina]

I liked the premiere. I think it felt a little slow, but it's been, what? Fourteen months since we've seen the show? I felt completely lost going in (doesn't help that my memory is worse than a 90-year-old dementia patient's). So I thought they did a good job of catching everyone up, without being too obvious about it. 

I thought the cold open was brilliant. One of the more tense television scenes I've ever watched. The Albuquerque memento hanging from the rearview? Odd coincidence? Or a warning? The way that cab driver kept looking at him sent chills down my spine. I have never felt more urgency in finding out the status of present day Saul. 

Nacho/Gus's scenes were fine. Laying groundwork. 

The stuff with Jimmy was so so sad. After the fire, he's sitting outside on that bench....the same bench he got Chuck to sit on when he first started helping him combat his EMS. But the saddest part was when Howard revealed what was likely the big catalyst to Chuck's demise and Jimmy was all, "Well, that sucks. Who wants coffee?" I may be naive, but I have to believe that deep down there is remorse and guilt. But, then again, Chuck went so hard for him and hurt HIM in so many ways. Maybe he really has closed himself off to his brother? 

My favorite storyline from last night, though, was Mike's. Always Mike. I'll never get tired of watching his chicanery. Mike Ehrmantraut is not one to sit home and collect a paycheck. If he's going to be labeled a "security consultant", he's going to BE a security consultant. The writing for his scenes is always so genius and Banks just plays it flawlessly. 

Final thought - anyone get Walter White vibes from the dude he stole the security badge from? (If this was already noted 45849 times, I apologize. I'm posting real quickly before I have to go.)

Edited August 7, 2018 by ghoulina

[Bannon]

Yeah, the pill disposal was overly dramatic, but it doesn't bother me. Gus is sufficiently naturally cautious to strongly suspect Nacho in any case; this was just a way to show it rather than tell it.

[MaryPatShelby]

8 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

Was Rebecca the older woman sitting in the pew behind Jimmy and Kim?

 

Yes, and since I really like Ann Cusack when the show was over I thought "That's IT?  That's all we get of Rebecca/Ann?" 

Put me on the list of those who are less-to-not interested in the cartel business.  Though I do find Michael Mando compelling, I just can't track all the machinations of drug dealing and I'm not sure, in this particular show, that I care to.

Also, do we know for a fact that the cold open was a dream, or is it just speculation at this point?

Edited August 7, 2018 by MaryPatShelby

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Mike is one of those guys that gets easily bored, he has always got to be doing something.  I can't seem him retired playing golf.

Also, he doesn't trust Lydia,  which means he's going to find out everything he can about Madrigal's operation.

[JudyObscure]

@gallimaufry that was beautiful.  I belong to a book club, made up primarily of retired  English Lit teachers and they can break down the symbolism in our novels like that, but I rarely find it done so well with TV shows.  There are several really good writers on this thread and I'm almost as tickled to see you folks back as I am the show.

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

 

 

The stuff with Jimmy was so so sad. After the fire, he's sitting outside on that bench....the same bench he got Chuck to sit on when he first started helping him combat his EMS. But the saddest part was when Howard revealed what was likely the big catalyst to Chuck's demise and Jimmy was all, "Well, that sucks. Who wants coffee?" I may be naive, but I have to believe that deep down there is remorse and guilt. But, then again, Chuck went so hard for him and hurt HIM in so many ways. Maybe he really has closed himself off to his brother? 

 

I really think this was the natural result of one of last season's most important scenes. Jimmy goes over to Chuck's house, after the debacle of Chuck's testimony to the Bar Association. Jimmy is still actually concerned about Chuck's well being. Chuck goes out of his way to tell Jimmy that he never has cared for Jimmy at all, and.......Jimmy believes him! Jimmy now sees that everything Chuck has ever done to "help" Jimmy through the years, whether it be getting Jimmy out of jail in Chicago, or getting him a job in the mailroom at HHM, was never done out of concern, but only as a means for Chuck to lord his superiority over Jimmy. Jimmy now completely grasps why Chuck hated Jimmy getting a law degree, and goddamnit, Jimmy is fully prepared to be the chimp with a machine gun that Chuck said he would be, just to spite the memory of Chuck.

I've said from season one that this is the saddest t.v. show I've ever watched. What helps make it so is that the writers never avoid the consequences of the character's decisions and behaviors. 

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I can't see them killing off Kim.  As odd as it sounds, I could envision her going back to work at Hamlin.  She had to be all for team Hamlin at the end of this episode when Jimmy acted like such a douche canoe.

 

I have recent detailed speculation about this in the speculation without spoilers thread, after rewatching season 3 a couple weeks ago.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bannon

[Jeffro]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, but she made it clear that it wasn't necessary.

In BB Hank mentions that Mike is on the LPH payroll. I wonder if he blew the Madrigal deal with this stunt.

Madrigal owns LPH. That’s who would be issuing paychecks for every LPH employee. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Better Call Saul Premiere Brings A Few Things Into Focus

In the aftermath of three emergencies, everyone in 'Smoke' searches for clarity in our EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of S04.E01.

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

 

Is that a dig at "The Americans"?

Just thought I would ask.  I had serious problems with its final season.

 

Almost all heavily serialized television does this, because the writers don't trust the audience to be patient enough to allow the story to unfold at a pace that entails how human beings actually live their lives. So the characters are conveniently made idiots, as need be, so the plot can be advanced more quickly, or so writers can get scenes they want, having written the end of the story first. Yeah, it really bugged me in "The Americans", because there was otherwise stuff that was so good in that show, but it is a very common failing, and why I don't watch most shows beyond a few episodes.

BCS and BB are among my all time favorites, in good part because Gilligan and Gould & Co. trust me enough to tell the story right.

[BeatrixK]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think it's his attempt to legitimize his cover story with Lydia to back him up.

Isn't Mike the one who lived by 'No Half Measures?'

Doing his 'job' is perfectly in line with Mike's precision in covering his tracks.  The security sweep was total full measure!

 

I also learned that I never in my life worried so much about the safety of a Cinnebon manager......

[Bannon]

I absolutely love the fact that Gilligan and Gould took time to throw shade at writers who engage in the dumbest cliche of action scenes, when someone who is outweighed by 80-100 pounds, by an opponent who is experienced at violence, easily wins a fight, usually employing kicks. The fact that they had cynical, grumpy, Mike do it was the icing on the cake.

[BradandJanet]

This episode was crafted with so much care. It took me back to what made Breaking Bad so compelling. I can't watch this show without discussing it with people. Everyone has a little detail to point out. While I liked BCS from the beginning, it always seemed to fall a little short of the genius of BB. Until this episode. 

[nodorothyparker]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think Jimmy was also feeling very angry and bitter toward Chuck. They really didn't part on good terms, and then Howard just sat there emphasizing that Chuck had apparently just committed suicide over a falling out with the firm of all things. I mean, in a way, that just confirms that Chuck was telling the truth when he said that he just didn't care about Jimmy that much. It was only his relationship with the firm and his place in the firm that he cared about.

Chuck and Jimmy have this operatic court battle, Chuck cuts Jimmy off at the knees when the tries to reconnect, it's all very tragic, Jimmy is still paying the price, and...that has nothing to do with Chuck's death, he actually had a relapse and committed suicide because things went poorly with the firm? Bah. I can see how Jimmy would be like, "you want to take the blame for this? Take it then!" to Howard. Chuck and Howard and the firm wanted to write Jimmy out of the story, and now they really officially have. I think that's why Jimmy stopped listening to the obituary, too. It was all about Chuck and the firm and Howard-as-a-representation-of-the-firm and everything else (including Jimmy) was very cleanly edited out. In reality, Jimmy had a big impact on Chuck's life -- just look at the insurance rate hike as evidence, if nothing else! But if Chuck and Hamlin Hamlin McGill want to shut him out...I guess Jimmy figures at this point, "go right ahead."

I love this observation.  As cold as Jimmy's response to Howard dissolving into a weepy mess over his guilt was, it made a certain amount of sense to me without simply chalking it up to "oh, he's evil Saul now."  Jimmy had spent most of his scenes as completely shellshocked.  As he told Kim, he knew something must have happened because when he last saw Chuck five days ago, he was seemingly fine, listening to jazz with the lights on.  Howard even confirms that Chuck was "better," because apparently neither of them realize that's when a person who may be suicidal or has nothing left to lose is at their most dangerous.  Jimmy had noted all the electrical appliances ripped out again, but had nothing more to go on than Chuck's parting shot that "the truth is you've never really mattered that much to me."  When he tipped the insurance woman off about Chuck, he probably just saw it as the next round in their ongoing war that he was still dealing with the fallout from.  There's simply no way he could have known that this time, this would finally be the time Howard would finally be done carrying water for Chuck and force some real kind of consequences for him too.

So while Jimmy may have loaded the gun, Howard is still the one who pulled the trigger.  At least in Jimmy's eyes.  And if he wants to take the full blame for it, more power to him.  Because in the end, Chuck's death wasn't even about Jimmy.  He never mattered that much to him anyway.  This huge war they've been waging against each other, the one Jimmy's going to spend the next year of his life paying for, still mattered less than Chuck's precious law firm and reputation.  On some level, Jimmy already knew that when Howard was rattling off the obituary that went on and on in grandiose terms about Chuck's work and reputation but never mentioned that he had a brother at all.

[benteen]

I thought the beginning was good and so was the last scene but otherwise, I wasn't a fan.  It was slow.  I'll excuse it since it was the first episode.

[Bannon]

23 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I love this observation.  As cold as Jimmy's response to Howard dissolving into a weepy mess over his guilt was, it made a certain amount of sense to me without simply chalking it up to "oh, he's evil Saul now."  Jimmy had spent most of his scenes as completely shellshocked.  As he told Kim, he knew something must have happened because when he last saw Chuck five days ago, he was seemingly fine, listening to jazz with the lights on.  Howard even confirms that Chuck was "better," because apparently neither of them realize that's when a person who may be suicidal or has nothing left to lose is at their most dangerous.  Jimmy had noted all the electrical appliances ripped out again, but had nothing more to go on than Chuck's parting shot that "the truth is you've never really mattered that much to me."  When he tipped the insurance woman off about Chuck, he probably just saw it as the next round in their ongoing war that he was still dealing with the fallout from.  There's simply no way he could have known that this time, this would finally be the time Howard would finally be done carrying water for Chuck and force some real kind of consequences for him too.

So while Jimmy may have loaded the gun, Howard is still the one who pulled the trigger.  At least in Jimmy's eyes.  And if he wants to take the full blame for it, more power to him.  Because in the end, Chuck's death wasn't even about Jimmy.  He never mattered that much to him anyway.  This huge war they've been waging against each other, the one Jimmy's going to spend the next year of his life paying for, still mattered less than Chuck's precious law firm and reputation.  On some level, Jimmy already knew that when Howard was rattling off the obituary that went on and on in grandiose terms about Chuck's work and reputation but never mentioned that he had a brother at all.

Great comment.

[100Proof]

I knew something was bugging me watching the fire scene aftermath. Chucks house apparently must have wheels on it as the neighborhood setting is different. lol

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

I knew something was bugging me watching the fire scene aftermath. Chucks house apparently must have wheels on it as the neighborhood setting is different. lol

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. They CGI'd the burnt ruin of a house over the actual house in the Albuquerque neighborhood. I've been wondering since last season if they were going to do that.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I really think this was the natural result of one of last season's most important scenes. Jimmy goes over to Chuck's house, after the debacle of Chuck's testimony to the Bar Association. Jimmy is still actually concerned about Chuck's well being. Chuck goes out of his way to tell Jimmy that he never has cared for Jimmy at all, and.......Jimmy believes him! Jimmy now sees that everything Chuck has ever done to "help" Jimmy through the years, whether it be getting Jimmy out of jail in Chicago, or getting him a job in the mailroom at HHM, was never done out of concern, but only as a means for Chuck to lord his superiority over Jimmy. Jimmy now completely grasps why Chuck hated Jimmy getting a law degree, and goddamnit, Jimmy is fully prepared to be the chimp with a machine gun that Chuck said he would be, just to spite the memory of Chuck.

I've said from season one that this is the saddest t.v. show I've ever watched. What helps make it so is that the writers never avoid the consequences of the character's decisions and behaviors. 

A few things:

a) I think Chuck was lying to Jimmy out of pride when he said that.  I think the final and fatal relapse of his condition was the result of him permanently ending the relationship with Jimmy.  His "condition" typically got better or worse based upon the state of his relationships with his loved ones.  It initially appeared just after his divorce from Rebecca.  Later, when he was content with what Jimmy was doing, it got better, but when Jimmy upset him it got worse.   That is not to say that Chuck doesn't also like to lord it over people, including Jimmy.

b) I think Chuck honestly hated Jimmy getting a law degree because he knew it was like giving a chimp a machine gun.  Even before he knew Chuck, not Howard had blocked HHM from hiring him as a lawyer, Jimmy was cutting corners, running scams and breaking the law in his practice.  The Kettleman scam might seem funny, but creating an auto accident puts lives in danger, and ended up putting 3 lives (including his own) in danger in another way.   Then he did the copyright infringement and impersonating Hamlin ("Identity theft is not a joke, Jim! Millions of families suffer every year!" :) )   Then the billboard hero scam.   Then he had the entanglement with Nacho (though he tried to do the right thing), and took the bribe from the Kettlemans, though he eventually and hired Mike to break into their house (though with good intentions).   

Also, Chuck didn't try to block Jimmy from being a lawyer (until after the Mesa Verde crimes).  He just didn't want him at his firm, or to have Jimmy's practice in any way associated with his.  I don't think that was wrong.  Look what Jimmy did with his cushy job at Davis & Main (which seemed a bit less stuffy than HHM).  There is no way he would have fit in at HHM.  

c) I agree it is very sad.  Both brothers kept escalating the conflict, until it broke their relationship completely and ended in Chuck's death.  

[ghoulina]

10 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

I really liked this episode. The pace gave me time to think back to previous episodes and reconnect with the characters and the plot. I had to laugh when Jimmy put the phone down while listening to Howard read the obituary full of Chuck's achievements, something Chuck always held over Jimmy.

Yes. Even in death, Chuck had to lord it all over Jimmy. 

 

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

Even beyond that, though, I think Jimmy was also feeling very angry and bitter toward Chuck. They really didn't part on good terms, and then Howard just sat there emphasizing that Chuck had apparently just committed suicide over a falling out with the firm of all things. I mean, in a way, that just confirms that Chuck was telling the truth when he said that he just didn't care about Jimmy that much. It was only his relationship with the firm and his place in the firm that he cared about.

Good point. I didn't even think of that, but it makes so much sense. He really didn't seem affected by losing his brother, but losing his career and his place in the firm? That was everything. 

I wondered, if at the end of that long obit, there was something about Chuck "being survived by his brother, James McGill"?

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

After Jimmy's reaction to Howard, I think Kim's chances of surviving the season and the series are much better than I thought.  I think she dumps the cold hearted bastard soon, which would mean they wouldn't necessarily need to kill her off.

I've always figured this is how it would go. Jimmy would slowly reveal Saul to her; the frog would realize she's in the pot of boiling water and jump the fuck out. Kim really did give him the old side-eye when he said that. It's just a question of how much she'll put up with? What will be the final straw? 

[100Proof]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. They CGI'd the burnt ruin of a house over the actual house in the Albuquerque neighborhood. I've been wondering since last season if they were going to do that.

Yeah the house probably has been CGI'd to some extent. This episode has Chucks house on a corner lot, whereas in an earlier season, Chucks house is just one home along a street, with a home right next to his where a street is now in the fire scene.

Apparently Chucks home appears earlier situated in a more residential neighborhood that would befit his type of income. The fire scene had the house situated right on the outskirts of a downtown/commercial buildings area.

The change could have something to do with staging a fire scene, which may or may not have been fully or partially cgi enhanced

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof

[Bryce Lynch]

55 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I absolutely love the fact that Gilligan and Gould took time to throw shade at writers who engage in the dumbest cliche of action scenes, when someone who is outweighed by 80-100 pounds, by an opponent who is experienced at violence, easily wins a fight, usually employing kicks. The fact that they had cynical, grumpy, Mike do it was the icing on the cake.

I'm not so sure about that.  Boxers are experts at boxing.  They are not necessarily skilled in any other type of fighting.  If it were a boxing match, Ali would win easily.  In a street fight, I don't know.  

[Wouldofshouldof]

11 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Mike made the right choice to really break bad and get out from under that ultimately mundane existence.

Did he though?  Given what we know about his storyline in BB?

[StatMom]

8 hours ago, 100Proof said:

Who remembers all these details from any show's previous seasons, lol. Rebecca? Who the heck is Rebecca?  And Jimmy squealed to the insurance company Chuck's condition?  What the heck was Cheese Nacho doing with the pills? I forget. He didn't want his father to getting coerced by the cartel or something.... lol.

 

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

AMC was re-airing the last season over the past few nights. late at night.  If I hadn't re-watched those episodes, I would have been totally lost.

The last few months, I rewatched the whole series on Netflix in anticipation of this season. My only previous viewing of the show was also in Netflix marathon form, and I feel like it's easier to forget things when I watch a bunch of episodes in a short period of time. Plus a show that does time-jumping a bit like this one does always confuses me -- I tend to forget who knew what and when they knew it!

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Yes. Even in death, Chuck had to lord it all over Jimmy. 

 

Good point. I didn't even think of that, but it makes so much sense. He really didn't seem affected by losing his brother, but losing his career and his place in the firm? That was everything. 

I wondered, if at the end of that long obit, there was something about Chuck "being survived by his brother, James McGill"?

I've always figured this is how it would go. Jimmy would slowly reveal Saul to her; the frog would realize she's in the pot of boiling water and jump the fuck out. Kim really did give him the old side-eye when he said that. It's just a question of how much she'll put up with? What will be the final straw? 

I'm not sure really ever threw his accomplishments up in Jimmy's face, though I am sure Jimmy always felt inferior.

I wanted to hear if Howard wrote, "his beloved brother".  I was wondering if Jimmy would tell him to remove the "beloved" like Stannis Baratheon in GOT. :)

Kim's look made me think she might be getting out of that relationship soon.  She seemed to be having her doubts about Jimmy toward the end of Season 3, but then the accident pushed them together again, and also, temporarily, got Jimmy to reevaluate his ways and make some changes.  He agreed to shut down the office and more importantly confessed about what he did to Irene and trashed the geezers on the open mike, delaying his million plus dollars, and destroying his elder law practice, to undo the damage he did to Irene.  

It actually seems a bit off to me, that Jimmy was being so noble in the finale, but became so instantly cold-hearted  in the Season 4 premiere.  

[Wouldofshouldof]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Chuck honestly hated Jimmy getting a law degree because he knew it was like giving a chimp a machine gun. 

That, and also Chuck would have felt that by Jimmy getting a law degree, it diminished his own accomplishments.

[SailorGirl]

7 hours ago, dwmarch said:

 

Mike is still a cop at heart and wants to know who he's working for and what they are all about. If they're into some gangsta shit, could a curious investigator with a clipboard compromise them? Apparently the answer is yes so he wants to help them beef up security before cashing his consulting cheques.

 

And also, as they ultimately end up smuggling and storing chemicals for future "business" activities, his work now pays off later and adds to the list of reasons why he has earned Gus's trust and loyalty. Gus is ALL about the long game, and by Mike doing this, he has opened another door/provided another option for Gus to better conduct and expand his non LPH activities down the road. 

[Blakeston]

The ending didn't feel right to me.

Jimmy spent most of the episode feeling guilty about Chuck's death. He knew that the fire wasn't an accident. Then he finds out that his sabotage of Chuck's insurance policy played a huge role in driving him to suicide - meaning that Jimmy played an even bigger role than he realized - and suddenly he feels fine?

I get that he decided to let Howard take the fall for it, even though the shoe didn't really fit - any excuse to put the blame on someone else. But if he's that heartless now, why was he agonizing about Chuck's death a few minutes earlier?

[100Proof]

No, wait, I'm wrong about the house. I didn't realize the shot I saw that's along the street with neighboring homes is because the scene had Chuck and Jimmy coming out of a side entrance and into a car. Plus, in an earlier scene in the previoius episode I scanned does have the house on a corner lot as well. My 'mystery' solved

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, 100Proof said:

Yeah the house probably has been CGI'd to some extent. This episode has Chucks house on a corner lot, whereas in an earlier season, Chucks house is just one home along a street, with a home right next to his where a street is now in the fire scene.

Apparently Chucks home appears earlier situated in a more residential neighborhood that would befit his type of income. The fire scene had the house situated right on the outskirts of a downtown/commercial buildings area.

The change could have something to do with staging a fire scene, which may or may not have been fully or partially cgi enhanced

I'm very familiar with Albuquerque. Chuck's house,  in real life, is right on the edge of downtown, across the street from a park, in what is called the Country Club neighborhood, the house being about three blocks from the Albuquerque Country Club.

[100Proof]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I'm very familiar with Albuquerque. Chuck's house,  in real life, is right on the edge of downtown, across the street from a park, in what is called the Country Club neighborhood, the house being about three blocks from the Albuquerque Country Club.

Yep.  I posted my retraction seconds before you, ;-)

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof

[nodorothyparker]

36 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Chuck honestly hated Jimmy getting a law degree because he knew it was like giving a chimp a machine gun.  Even before he knew Chuck, not Howard had blocked HHM from hiring him as a lawyer, Jimmy was cutting corners, running scams and breaking the law in his practice.  The Kettleman scam might seem funny, but creating an auto accident puts lives in danger, and ended up putting 3 lives (including his own) in danger in another way.   Then he did the copyright infringement and impersonating Hamlin ("Identity theft is not a joke, Jim! Millions of families suffer every year!" :) )   Then the billboard hero scam.   Then he had the entanglement with Nacho (though he tried to do the right thing), and took the bribe from the Kettlemans, though he eventually and hired Mike to break into their house (though with good intentions).   

Also, Chuck didn't try to block Jimmy from being a lawyer (until after the Mesa Verde crimes).  He just didn't want him at his firm, or to have Jimmy's practice in any way associated with his.  I don't think that was wrong.  Look what Jimmy did with his cushy job at Davis & Main (which seemed a bit less stuffy than HHM).  There is no way he would have fit in at HHM.  

All of this is true, which is what makes the whole thing such a Greek tragedy.  Chuck wasn't wrong about Jimmy.  He was just such an overbearing asshole about it that it made it nigh impossible for anyone to side with him when it wasn't in their financial interest to do so or even tell him that he was right, which was always always the thing he wanted most.

We saw from the very first that Chuck didn't even want Jimmy practicing law under the McGill name.  Which to be fair, Jimmy was doing sketchy things right from the start and being extremely ambulance chasery (yeah, I'm going with that as a word), and left to his own devices at that point probably would have always been what Chuck considered a disreputable lawyer like that.  But he hadn't gone full-blown criminal lawyer yet.   Chuck was going to be unhappy with Jimmy doing anything but staying in the place Chuck had set out for him in the mail room, just as he was going to be unhappy with anyone who didn't see Jimmy the way he saw Jimmy.

[Bannon]

48 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not so sure about that.  Boxers are experts at boxing.  They are not necessarily skilled in any other type of fighting.  If it were a boxing match, Ali would win easily.  In a street fight, I don't know.  

You really are going to have to believe me on this. In the actual world we live in, people who are at all skilled, in any sort of fighting, do not lose to other fighters who are outweighed by 80-100 pounds. Physics controls our lives.

[Bryce Lynch]

So now that Bolsa has ordered them to stick with the status quo with the Salamanca operation, how does this affect Nacho and his plans to get his father's business out of the operation?  I wonder if Mike and or Gus, will help him create the appearance that the upholstery shop is compromised to get the whole operation moved to LPH.

I saw a wild fan theory about the cab driver from ABQ.  Could it be Howard Hamlin, who tracked down Saul/Jimmy 12 years or so after he took down HHM to get revenge?  It is kind of out there, but I it is interesting that the cab driver was not credited and never speaks.  Fun stuff, anyway.  

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You really are going to have to believe me on this. In the actual world we live in, people who are at all skilled, in any sort of fighting, do not lose to other fighters who are outweighed by 80-100 pounds. Physics controls our lives.

Well, we found out in this thread that Lee carried a .45, so I guess he would have just Indiana Jonesed Ali. :)

6 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

All of this is true, which is what makes the whole thing such a Greek tragedy.  Chuck wasn't wrong about Jimmy.  He was just such an overbearing asshole about it that it made it nigh impossible for anyone to side with him when it wasn't in their financial interest to do so or even tell him that he was right, which was always always the thing he wanted most.

We saw from the very first that Chuck didn't even want Jimmy practicing law under the McGill name.  Which to be fair, Jimmy was doing sketchy things right from the start and being extremely ambulance chasery (yeah, I'm going with that as a word), and left to his own devices at that point probably would have always been what Chuck considered a disreputable lawyer like that.  But he hadn't gone full-blown criminal lawyer yet.   Chuck was going to be unhappy with Jimmy doing anything but staying in the place Chuck had set out for him in the mail room, just as he was going to be unhappy with anyone who didn't see Jimmy the way he saw Jimmy.

Yes, Chuck was often an ahole, but he also always seemed to know exactly what Jimmy was up to.  He totally called the billboard rescue scam and the Mesa Verde cut and paste, down to the last detail about how he did it and how he bribed the copy shop guy.  Chuck knew Jimmy better than Jimmy knows Jimmy.  Too bad Chuck didn't know Chuck better.  

[100Proof]

Odenkirk's voice has a lot to do with his success as a character, imo. Can't imagine pulling off that balance of charming used car salesman sincerity /insincerity and comedy in any other kind.

Edited August 7, 2018 by 100Proof

[AndyAxel]

12 hours ago, Pat Hoolihan said:

Zafiro anejo tequila makes an appearance. That is the tequila that in BB Gus poisons and gives to Eladio. It is a purely fictional brand, made up by the BB team because they failed in getting product placement. It is supposed to be extremely expensive, and so it was an extra special gift to Eladio.  Was Kim's obtaining a bottle a part of a previous episode? I sort of vaguely recall it but I'm not sure.

Jimmy bought a bottle as a celebration for the settlement / payout after he ran that long con involving Irene and her friends at Sandpiper.

Zafiro Anejo was also the brand that "Giselle" and "Viktor" scammed the investment guy into buying at $50 a shot.
 

[ShadowFacts]

13 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Chuck was going to be unhappy with Jimmy doing anything but staying in the place Chuck had set out for him in the mail room, just as he was going to be unhappy with anyone who didn't see Jimmy the way he saw Jimmy.

Maybe I give Chuck too much credit, but I see a little more shading of gray inasmuch as Chuck was excited to help Jimmy with his original Sandpiper case and nursing home clients.  I think he would have been okay with Jimmy staying in that lane.  He wanted him on the straight and narrow.  He did care about Jimmy, he wasn't solely interested in lording his status over Jimmy's.  We saw that in the scenes of him reading to him as a little boy, etc.  I think he desperately wanted Jimmy to not be the Chicago sunroof Jimmy that he had tried to keep a lid on for so long.  I think that was doomed to failure irrespective of any approval Chuck gave or withheld.  Jimmy is Jimmy is Saul. 

[Bannon]

31 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

All of this is true, which is what makes the whole thing such a Greek tragedy.  Chuck wasn't wrong about Jimmy.  He was just such an overbearing asshole about it that it made it nigh impossible for anyone to side with him when it wasn't in their financial interest to do so or even tell him that he was right, which was always always the thing he wanted most.

We saw from the very first that Chuck didn't even want Jimmy practicing law under the McGill name.  Which to be fair, Jimmy was doing sketchy things right from the start and being extremely ambulance chasery (yeah, I'm going with that as a word), and left to his own devices at that point probably would have always been what Chuck considered a disreputable lawyer like that.  But he hadn't gone full-blown criminal lawyer yet.   Chuck was going to be unhappy with Jimmy doing anything but staying in the place Chuck had set out for him in the mail room, just as he was going to be unhappy with anyone who didn't see Jimmy the way he saw Jimmy.

I will maintain until the end of time that Jimmy, if exposed to skilled management, could have had a prosperous conventional career as a lawyer, with nothing more but the most minor ethical issues. He wouldn't have even needed to be an associate at HHM or Davis and Main. He could have been set up in a seperate practice, with HHM and D&M as his only clients , with his only job being birddogging Sandpiper claimants (running actually effective t.v. commercials that offended D&M partners so much, but without D&M's brand attached to them), and other elder abuse work. Sandpiper alone was 5-7 years worth of very lucrative work. Real, large, profitable, law firms do this all the time, farming out the marketing work to small shops which do the overt ambulance chasing, who in turn simply funnel the actual legal sausage making back to the large firm. Jimmy is skilled at this, and willing to work his butt off, and it would have provided him a very prosperous career, with HHM and D&M being insulated.

Don't get me wrong. Jimmy alone is responsible for his choices. All humans can be influenced to make better and more ethical choices, however, and I've always thought it notable that neither HHM or Davis and Main are especially well managed. In real life, it is not at all unusual for firms to well managed in their growth years, and then decline after reaching a certain size. Businesses can coast along for years with mediocre management, before running aground.

9 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Maybe I give Chuck too much credit, but I see a little more shading of gray inasmuch as Chuck was excited to help Jimmy with his original Sandpiper case and nursing home clients.  I think he would have been okay with Jimmy staying in that lane.  He wanted him on the straight and narrow.  He did care about Jimmy, he wasn't solely interested in lording his status over Jimmy's.  We saw that in the scenes of him reading to him as a little boy, etc.  I think he desperately wanted Jimmy to not be the Chicago sunroof Jimmy that he had tried to keep a lid on for so long.  I think that was doomed to failure irrespective of any approval Chuck gave or withheld.  Jimmy is Jimmy is Saul. 

We just see it differently. I recall Chuck being offended at finding out that Jimmy had obtained a legal degree. I think Chuck really wanted to Jimmy to fail, despite Chuck the law firm partner being naturally enthralled to have a major class action caah cow like Sandpiper dumped in his lap.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bannon

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I will maintain until the end of time that Jimmy, if exposed to skilled management, could have had a prosperous conventional career as a lawyer, with nothing more but the most minor ethical issues. He wouldn't have even needed to be an associate at HHM or Davis and Main. He could have been set up in a seperate practice, with HHM and D&M as his only clients , with his only job being birddogging Sandpiper claimants (running actually effective t.v. commercials that offended D&M partners so much, but without D&M's brand attached to them), and other elder abuse work. Sandpiper alone was 5-7 years worth of very lucrative work. Real, large, profitable, law firms do this all the time, farming out the marketing work to small shops which do the overt ambulance chasing, who in turn simply funnel the actual legal sausage making back to the large firm. Jimmy is skilled at this, and willing to work his butt off, and it would have provided him a very prosperous career, with HHM and D&M being insulated.

Don't get me wrong. Jimmy alone is responsible for his choices. All humans can be influenced to make better and more ethical choices, however, and I've always thought it notable that neither HHM or Davis and Main are especially well managed. In real life, it is not at all unusual for firms to well managed in their growth years, and then decline after reaching a certain size. Businesses can coast along for years with mediocre management, before running aground.

I don't buy this for a second.  Jimmy was a born scam artist and he loved doing scams.  He could control himself for a little while, but he would always go back to his first love.  He had good management at D&M and a spectacular compensation package, but he hated it, and preferred to make squat cobbler videos.  

As Chuck told Kim, "He can't help himself."  

[ghoulina]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I will maintain until the end of time that Jimmy, if exposed to skilled management, could have had a prosperous conventional career as a lawyer, with nothing more but the most minor ethical issues.

I stand with you on this. 1000% When people point out that Chuck was right about Jimmy, I think of it more of a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. Jimmy heard who he was so often from Chuck that that's who he eventually became. 

[nodorothyparker]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:13 AM, ShadowFacts said:

On 8/7/2018 at 10:51 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Chuck was going to be unhappy with Jimmy doing anything but staying in the place Chuck had set out for him in the mail room, just as he was going to be unhappy with anyone who didn't see Jimmy the way he saw Jimmy.

Maybe I give Chuck too much credit, but I see a little more shading of gray inasmuch as Chuck was excited to help Jimmy with his original Sandpiper case and nursing home clients.  I think he would have been okay with Jimmy staying in that lane.  He wanted him on the straight and narrow.  He did care about Jimmy, he wasn't solely interested in lording his status over Jimmy's.  We saw that in the scenes of him reading to him as a little boy, etc.  I think he desperately wanted Jimmy to not be the Chicago sunroof Jimmy that he had tried to keep a lid on for so long.  I think that was doomed to failure irrespective of any approval Chuck gave or withheld.  Jimmy is Jimmy is Saul. 

I love how deeply layered this all turned out to be.  In that amazing season 1 reveal (which I still think is the most honest we ever saw Chuck), he says he was proud of Jimmy for straightening out and working in the mail room.  But he's also nearly frothing with rage in spitting out "You're not a real lawyer."  Because to him, Jimmy wasn't.  He may have gotten momentarily excited about Jimmy stumbling into Sandpiper, but the first thing he did when he realized what he had was blindside Jimmy by blowing it up into a huge class action that would be completely beyond the scope of a small time lawyer like Jimmy was. 

We all remember Chuck's line about Jimmy with a law degree being like a chimp with a machine gun, but the entire line including what comes before it is far more telling:  "I can handle Slippin' Jimmy just fine, but Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is a like a chimp with a machine gun."  Chuck knew what Jimmy was, sure, and I believe him that he believed he was just doing his best to contain Jimmy but the way he went about it turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't buy this for a second.  Jimmy was a born scam artist and he loved doing scams.  He could control himself for a little while, but he would always go back to his first love.  He had good management at D&M and a spectacular compensation package, but he hated it, and preferred to make squat cobbler videos.  

As Chuck told Kim, "He can't help himself."  

There is a long list of born scam artists, in the real world, who become wealthy, without anything but minor legal or professional blemishes, if fortunate enough to get into the right situation.

Really disagree that D & M was well managed. They have a gold mine in the Sandpiper case, that has just been given to them, if they have any skill at all in managing it. They claim to be opposed to television marketing, but when Jimmy shows the possible results, their ethical objections are tossed in a moment, and they start running their own, non-Jimmy produced commercials. Their commercials suck like a plutonium powered vacuum, however, and instead of displaying 3 digit IQs, however, and instead of farming out the work to Jimmy,  who is good at it ,with D&M insulated, they prefer to suck at marketing. That is not skillful management.

[AuntiePam]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Final thought - anyone get Walter White vibes from the dude he stole the security badge from? (If this was already noted 45849 times, I apologize. I'm posting real quickly before I have to go.)

Yes.  And I thought the house looked like the White house.  I was almost expecting Herb (?) to run over his son as he backed out of the driveway but that thought passed quickly -- the writers wouldn't be so sloppy as to change Walt Jr.'s back story.  Then I wondered (like another poster) whether there was a bomb in the car.  Then I'm thinking what's in his briefcase that he's so desperate to find -- something criminal? 

I like the slow episodes.  Gives me time to think about the characters, anticipate a little bit (but not much, I'm rarely right), and appreciate the cinematography. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I watched the scene where Howard reads the obituary on the phone, with closed captions and after Jimmy put down the phone, Howard says that he was survived by his former wife, concert violinist Rebecca Bois and his younger brother James McGill, who followed in his footsteps.  

So, he didn't write anything like "beloved brother" but he did mention Jimmy "followed in his footsteps".  The statement is true, but sort of ironic given what a different type of lawyer Jimmy is and that Chuck did not want him to be a lawyer.  

[AndyAxel]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't buy this for a second.  Jimmy was a born scam artist and he loved doing scams.  He could control himself for a little while, but he would always go back to his first love.  He had good management at D&M and a spectacular compensation package, but he hated it, and preferred to make squat cobbler videos.  

As Chuck told Kim, "He can't help himself."  

Neither can Chuck. He's a Jedi master in manipulation and passive-aggression.
Maybe Jimmy has earned some grief for running his scams, but Charles Lindbergh McGill is just a more respectable con artist than his brother is.

26 minutes ago, Bannon said:

We just see it differently. I recall Chuck being offended at finding out that Jimmy had obtained a legal degree. I think Chuck really wanted to Jimmy to fail, despite Chuck the law firm partner being naturally enthralled to have a major class action caah cow like Sandpiper dumped in his lap.

Chuck was going to "let justice be done though the heavens fall," even if he had to engineer the circumstances for that to happen.

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I love how deeply layered this all turned out to be.  In that amazing season 1 reveal (which I still think is the most honest we ever saw Chuck), he says he was proud of Jimmy for straightening out and working in the mail room.  But he's also nearly frothing with rage in spitting out "You're not a real lawyer."  Because to him, Jimmy wasn't.  He may have gotten momentarily excited about Jimmy stumbling into Sandpiper, but the first thing he did when he realized what he had was blindside Jimmy by blowing it up into a huge class action that would be completely beyond the scope of a small time lawyer like Jimmy was. 

We all remember Chuck's line about Jimmy with a law degree being like a chimp with a machine gun, but the entire line including what comes before it is far more telling:  "I can handle Slippin' Jimmy just fine, but Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is a like a chimp with a machine gun."  Chuck knew what Jimmy was, sure, and I believe he that he believed he was just doing his best to contain Jimmy but the way he went about it turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think it can be simultaneously true that Chuck was appalled that Jimmy had a law degree, and that he would have liked him to be a sedate elder lawyer.  Chuck wasn't just chomping at the bit about the Sandpiper class action.  He also encouraged Jimmy regarding taking care of the Sandpiper clients' wills (and actually helped with some?) and Jimmy was sweet to the elders, assiduously listing their modest assets and all of that.  It is also true that Jimmy did that for awhile, and went on to Davis and Main, but that was clearly not for him.  He couldn't be what they needed him to be there.  Not a good fit at all.  He would have had Chuck's approval if he had been able to fit in there, in Santa Fe, but that's not what Jimmy wanted.  I guess this is a little far afield of this episode, didn't mean to go off-topic so much, but I think the whole Chuck-Howard-Jimmy dynamic is not a dead issue yet, the show has to maintain a balance between that aspect of Jimmy/Saul progression and the criminal exploits of Mike.  Also, where Kim fits in which may involve HHM. 

[Bryce Lynch]

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I will maintain until the end of time that Jimmy, if exposed to skilled management, could have had a prosperous conventional career as a lawyer, with nothing more but the most minor ethical issues. He wouldn't have even needed to be an associate at HHM or Davis and Main. He could have been set up in a seperate practice, with HHM and D&M as his only clients , with his only job being birddogging Sandpiper claimants (running actually effective t.v. commercials that offended D&M partners so much, but without D&M's brand attached to them), and other elder abuse work. Sandpiper alone was 5-7 years worth of very lucrative work. Real, large, profitable, law firms do this all the time, farming out the marketing work to small shops which do the overt ambulance chasing, who in turn simply funnel the actual legal sausage making back to the large firm. Jimmy is skilled at this, and willing to work his butt off, and it would have provided him a very prosperous career, with HHM and D&M being insulated.

Don't get me wrong. Jimmy alone is responsible for his choices. All humans can be influenced to make better and more ethical choices, however, and I've always thought it notable that neither HHM or Davis and Main are especially well managed. In real life, it is not at all unusual for firms to well managed in their growth years, and then decline after reaching a certain size. Businesses can coast along for years with mediocre management, before running aground.

We just see it differently. I recall Chuck being offended at finding out that Jimmy had obtained a legal degree. I think Chuck really wanted to Jimmy to fail, despite Chuck the law firm partner being naturally enthralled to have a major class action caah cow like Sandpiper dumped in his lap.

Chuck never expressed any offense at finding out Jimmy received a law degree.  He reacted with surprise and, at least outwardly said he was proud of him (after being asked if he was by Jimmy).  

He encouraged Jimmy in his public defender work and elder law practice  and helped him with his wills.  Now, I am sure he wasn't all that comfortable with Jimmy being a lawyer (as he would be uncomfortable with anyone with Jimmy's shady history and character being one).  But, he only sought to prevent Jimmy from working for HHM or being associated with it through the McGill name (which was over the top on Chuck's part).  The fact is HHM would normally never hire a guy with no experience and a degree from the University of American Samoa (Go, Land Crabs!).   

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, AndyAxel said:

Neither can Chuck. He's a Jedi master in manipulation and passive-aggression.
Maybe Jimmy has earned some grief for running his scams, but Charles Lindbergh McGill is just a more respectable con artist than his brother is.

Chuck was going to "let justice be done though the heavens fall," even if he had to engineer the circumstances for that to happen.

Chuck was definitely manipulative.  It is hard to say if that started with his mental illness or was always the way he was.

Chuck was both wrong and right in engineering the circumstances.  Jimmy committed some very, serious crimes with his Mesa Verde fraud, and it caused Chuck to be horribly humiliated., and cause him and his firm to take a big hit to their reputations. 

 He figured out Jimmy's crime to the last detail, and was about to get proof when Jimmy bribed the copy shop guy.  This had to be extremely frustrating for Chuck.  Once, again, his no good brother, Slippin' Jimmy harmed the McGill family and was getting away with it.  

It was pretty low of Chuck to use his illness to get a confession out of Jimmy, but Jimmy had already gotten into the gutter and Chuck didn't have many other options to get a confession.  

It was also low for him to use the tape to lure Jimmy into committing a felony, but again Jimmy cause the situation and Chuck was suffering from mental illness.  

Chuck was unhinged with the "though the heavens fall" talk, but along with having a personal grudge for the humiliation Jimmy caused him, I think he truly believed that Jimmy being a lawyer was a menace to the community (and Breaking Bad proves him 100% right).  

Jimmy made a life a running cons.  Chuck ran a con to catch a con artist, which is usually considered cool and heroic in most fiction.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Guess I gotta dig out my Los Pollos Hermanos t-shirt for when I watch this season of BCS.

[Spartan Girl]

13 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Well, if by "long" you mean until about 2010 when Saul dies and Gene Takavic takes his place. :)

I'm not really sure Gene replaced Saul.  Saul is still pretty much there, he's just hiding behind Gene.