All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[gonzosgirrl]

30 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I thought angels were sexless?  Although Castiel always kept the same vessel, a couple of the others changed from men to women or vice versa.

I don't think that after being exploded in Swan Song (or later in S7 when he dissolved into Leviathan goo), Castiel's body could be considered a vessel anymore. He was his own thing. But still, this idea of angels having a sexual orientation doesn't make any sense for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

ahaha I was making a joke, because ever since Jared said that I've seen people poking fun at blurry-wife in that regard. I think she, and how they dropped Eileen like yesterdays news and with not even a side comment, is a much bigger issue than the destiel thing. This show has always sucked at women but come on.

Yes! It is just weird that they never mentioned her being back (or not). I wonder if they didn't show blurry-wife because that would potentially lock them in to a character/actor if and when there is a reboot? It would just be one more thing to undo if they revisit the series with OG Sam but they can't or don't want to have Eileen/Shoshanna as part of it.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

41 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

OTOH, if that's true, then Cas would be pan (without any particular orientation) and the "blame" for the lack of Destiel would fall squarely on Dean/Jensen.  I prefer to think of angels as asexual so he wouldn't think of/recognize "love" in a sexual manner at all.  (Even the few times Cas actually had sex--so much for angels being "junkless"--it wasn't connected with love so much as discovery of another interesting side of human behavior...like enjoying PB&J as a whole instead of molecules.)  

As @Aeryn13 pointed out, someone declaring their attraction to you doesn't automatically entitle them to reciprocity. I think this is especially true of supposedly 'best friends', regardless of their gender or orientation. Being side by side with someone for x amount of years and believing your friendship to be one thing, then suddenly having them change the game on you, at literally the last moment of their life - ugh. And then putting the onus on them to reciprocate or else be the one responsible for the fallout? Well, that's a typical Castiel thing to do (see: blaming Dean for being angry that you facilitated getting his mother killed and then flouncing out in a petulant snit), but it is wholly unfair. I would feel exactly the same if Dean's best friend had been a female and she put this on him.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As @Aeryn13 pointed out, someone declaring their attraction to you doesn't automatically entitle them to reciprocity. I think this is especially true of supposedly 'best friends', regardless of their gender or orientation. Being side by side with someone for x amount of years and believing your friendship to be one thing, then suddenly having them change the game on you, at literally the last moment of their life - ugh. And then putting the onus on them to reciprocate or else be the one responsible for the fallout? Well, that's a typical Castiel thing to do (see: blaming Dean for being angry that you facilitated getting his mother killed and then flouncing out in a petulant snit), but it is wholly unfair. I would feel exactly the same if Dean's best friend had been a female and she put this on him.

IA completely.  But I was talking about fan blame, not RL.

As for Cas blaming Dean for whatever...well, he started that (for me) back in season 5 when he beat Dean to a bloody pulp for daring to want to say yes to Michael--not because of what it would do to the world, but because *he* rebelled against his brothers and lost.  That's what happens in wars, Cas.  When you choose a side, it's not always the one that wins.   

Both Sam and Cas have (almost) always blamed Dean for their choices and not allowed him to make his own without loading guilt on him.  So much for Team Free Will.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:46 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Jared is, of course,  free to have his own perception of his character. I'll assume his heart is in the right place in helping members of the fandom feel seen.

I would challenge anyone, however, to point out to me anything in canon that supports Sam being bi, easily or any other way. 

I thought his portrayal of Lucifer was a bit swishy 

[Airmid]

Brought over from the Finale thread, originally by @gonzosgirrl:

Quote

 

@AIRMID I'm of the opinion that "Chuck's" writing can't be limited to just Sam and Dean. IMO Garth was part of their story, so his life was written just as much as the Winchester's was, or Bobby's,  or Ellen's,  or Claire's and on and on. I dont see hiw we can pick and choose, and that's where the writing fails for me. I guess the worse thing Chuck did was kill Mary Winchester. Twice.  

I can see that, but at the same time, things happened outside of Chuck's will, mostly around Dean. It's hard to keep track of the lore vs. retcons at this point, but it originally seemed like Chuck was setting certain events up and watching them play out. And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to strip Sam and Dean of their hunting skills and toss them into a situation where he seems to want them to suffer only to be saved by Garth - who, while a monster, is also supposed to be one of the 'normal people', too. 

Some of the major events I can believe Chuck set up, but he wanted to watch what happened. Did he micromanage Garth's life to such an extent that he became successful despite not really being good and getting a family, or did that just happen, or a combination of both?

Plus, this kind of writing just makes everything so much worse for me. If Chuck set every little detail up, then Jack isn't responsible for anything yet Jack at the same time managed to defeat him. If Chuck wrote everything, how could he not control the Winchesters? I mean, obviously, in my view, this is just terrible writing, but it doesn't make sense in universe either.

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, Airmid said:

Plus, this kind of writing just makes everything so much worse for me. If Chuck set every little detail up, then Jack isn't responsible for anything yet Jack at the same time managed to defeat him. If Chuck wrote everything, how could he not control the Winchesters? I mean, obviously, in my view, this is just terrible writing, but it doesn't make sense in universe either

IKR?

I mean the time travel and meta episodes had their holes and problems, but this kind of "writing" can lead to the ruination of an entire series, but maybe that was the ultimate desire of this showrunner.

I can certainly see a case made for that.

[Smad]

18 hours ago, Airmid said:

Plus, this kind of writing just makes everything so much worse for me. If Chuck set every little detail up, then Jack isn't responsible for anything yet Jack at the same time managed to defeat him. If Chuck wrote everything, how could he not control the Winchesters? I mean, obviously, in my view, this is just terrible writing, but it doesn't make sense in universe either.

The only ones who should have been able to defeat Chuck are those who are outside of his control. Everything Chuck created he controls, he knows everything about them because he wrote it that way (and per Jack God is IN everything...even rocks). And as they stated in the show, on top of God having written everything, he's also omniscient. So the idea that anything that God created could possibly beat him is dumb on a scale I can't comprehend. And that's been one of my biggest issues with this Season.

Logically (as per the rules the writers set up), the only ones who should have been able to take Chuck on or down were Amara and the Entity and that's it.

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, Smad said:

The only ones who should have been able to defeat Chuck are those who are outside of his control. Everything Chuck created he controls, he knows everything about them because he wrote it that way (and per Jack God is IN everything...even rocks). And as they stated in the show, on top of God having written everything, he's also omniscient. So the idea that anything that God created could possibly beat him is dumb on a scale I can't comprehend. And that's been one of my biggest issues with this Season.

Logically (as per the rules the writers set up), the only ones who should have been able to take Chuck on or down were Amara and the Entity and that's it.

And that, right there, is why making God the Big Bad of the last season is the stupidest thing anybody has ever done on any TV show since the invention of TV. Bar none.  

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IKR?

I mean the time travel and meta episodes had their holes and problems, but this kind of "writing" can lead to the ruination of an entire series, but maybe that was the ultimate desire of this showrunner.

I can certainly see a case made for that.

Bingo. Especially when Chuck-God is the writer and he is perving on Dean and Dean's storyline disappears and Dean starts acting OoC and then he dies... the End.

The only consistent thing was dump on Dean.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/27/2020 at 6:20 PM, Airmid said:

Brought over from the Finale thread, originally by @gonzosgirrl:

I can see that, but at the same time, things happened outside of Chuck's will, mostly around Dean. It's hard to keep track of the lore vs. retcons at this point, but it originally seemed like Chuck was setting certain events up and watching them play out. And it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to strip Sam and Dean of their hunting skills and toss them into a situation where he seems to want them to suffer only to be saved by Garth - who, while a monster, is also supposed to be one of the 'normal people', too. 

Some of the major events I can believe Chuck set up, but he wanted to watch what happened. Did he micromanage Garth's life to such an extent that he became successful despite not really being good and getting a family, or did that just happen, or a combination of both?

Plus, this kind of writing just makes everything so much worse for me. If Chuck set every little detail up, then Jack isn't responsible for anything yet Jack at the same time managed to defeat him. If Chuck wrote everything, how could he not control the Winchesters? I mean, obviously, in my view, this is just terrible writing, but it doesn't make sense in universe either.

He explains his method to Amara. He does not control everything. Quotes are from UNITY.

"AMARA: You orchestrated this?

CHUCK: What part of omniscient do you people not understand? So I can't read my "Death Book." So what? I control space and time. Just plant a few visions, goad Death a little... Mess with a few outcomes... And... bada-bing! I mean... [laughing]They think they can kill me?"

Earlier on he tells her that the bond she shared with Dean was not written by him. Later he is angry that Dean goes off script and doesn't shoot Sam and continue with the Jack bomb plan and he chastises Cas for his individuality.

Chuck does not control everything. They didn't become losers or different people because he lost his powers.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Chuck does not control everything. They didn't become losers or different people because he lost his powers.

Chuck doesn't 'control' most of the world and it's people and monsters and what not. Because that wasn't his focus. The rest of the world wasn't his 'favorite show'. But it's hard to ignore that their entire life was written by someone else when you have early Chuck writing books about the guys lives and often before the guys went through it. He handed Dean pages he had written that Dean was reading in the laundromat which detailed the actions and thoughts of the brothers in that laundromat. And since God is the writer of the brothers lives as per S15, you can't ignore that everything about them comes from him.

And of course they don't become different people once his influence is gone. This isn't a case of someone having lived their life for 20 years and then being mind controlled for 5 and when that's over they go back to who there were when they were 20. God's been writing them since they came to life pretty much (the story and therefor the first book starts at Sam's 6 month birthday). They literally don't know how to be anyone else since they were always this way, hence they would stay the same once Chuck is not writing them anymore. It's just as hard to ignore that he was controlling their life to such an extend that when his influence is gone, Dean starts looking for an actual different job. Of the two brothers, it was always Dean who was 100% dedicated to the hunter life, seeing nothing else possible for him. He's still the same guy of course but he's free of being forced to live as he used to and therefor free to make choices because 'the show is over'. Chuck is not renewing it anymore for another Season thereby not impeding the choice not to keep hunting anymore.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Smad said:

Chuck doesn't 'control' most of the world and it's people and monsters and what not. Because that wasn't his focus. The rest of the world wasn't his 'favorite show'. But it's hard to ignore that their entire life was written by someone else when you have early Chuck writing books about the guys lives and often before the guys went through it. He handed Dean pages he had written that Dean was reading in the laundromat which detailed the actions and thoughts of the brothers in that laundromat. And since God is the writer of the brothers lives as per S15, you can't ignore that everything about them comes from him.

And of course they don't become different people once his influence is gone. This isn't a case of someone having lived their life for 20 years and then being mind controlled for 5 and when that's over they go back to who there were when they were 20. God's been writing them since they came to life pretty much (the story and therefor the first book starts at Sam's 6 month birthday). They literally don't know how to be anyone else since they were always this way, hence they would stay the same once Chuck is not writing them anymore. It's just as hard to ignore that he was controlling their life to such an extend that when his influence is gone, Dean starts looking for an actual different job. Of the two brothers, it was always Dean who was 100% dedicated to the hunter life, seeing nothing else possible for him. He's still the same guy of course but he's free of being forced to live as he used to and therefor free to make choices because 'the show is over'. Chuck is not renewing it anymore for another Season thereby not impeding the choice not to keep hunting anymore.

I don't think the control was that minute. God is all seeing which is how he knows a lot of what was happening. He is omniscient. God also pushed the story he wanted to happen. He moved things around so that every year there was an Apocalypse. He tells Dean that he's  the firewall and the world is his responsibility ensuring that he is primed to make a sacrifice.

He positions a Lilith here, a Lucifer there, pops in an Equalizer or a Colt. 

It's not full proof as we saw in Moriah, Unity and well he tells Dean a couple of times in a 5 that he is going off scriot...  for instance Dean was not supposed to be at Stull.

The fact that this TFW actually had some is why they were his favorite show. He never controlled everything.

[ahrtee]

12 hours ago, Smad said:

Chuck doesn't 'control' most of the world and it's people and monsters and what not. Because that wasn't his focus. The rest of the world wasn't his 'favorite show'. But it's hard to ignore that their entire life was written by someone else when you have early Chuck writing books about the guys lives and often before the guys went through it. He handed Dean pages he had written that Dean was reading in the laundromat which detailed the actions and thoughts of the brothers in that laundromat. And since God is the writer of the brothers lives as per S15, you can't ignore that everything about them comes from him.

And of course they don't become different people once his influence is gone. This isn't a case of someone having lived their life for 20 years and then being mind controlled for 5 and when that's over they go back to who there were when they were 20. God's been writing them since they came to life pretty much (the story and therefor the first book starts at Sam's 6 month birthday). They literally don't know how to be anyone else since they were always this way, hence they would stay the same once Chuck is not writing them anymore. It's just as hard to ignore that he was controlling their life to such an extend that when his influence is gone, Dean starts looking for an actual different job. Of the two brothers, it was always Dean who was 100% dedicated to the hunter life, seeing nothing else possible for him. He's still the same guy of course but he's free of being forced to live as he used to and therefor free to make choices because 'the show is over'. Chuck is not renewing it anymore for another Season thereby not impeding the choice not to keep hunting anymore.

Except Chuck didn't start to literally "write their lives" till season 1, episode 1 (that was his first book).  All their first 22/26 years were covered retroactively in the introduction.  So everything up to Dean picking up Sam at college--all their training, all the hunts they'd been on, were their own.  Chuck was absent for all their early lives--hands off, and not even the angels knew where he was.  Their characters, as molded by their childhood and upbringing, as well as all that skill trained into them, should have stayed with them.  And IMO that was why they were able to go against the script as written later.  (That's the only way I can reconcile the idea of free will if Chuck supposedly was writing *everything*).

I think the only thing written originally was a draft--the idea that the Apocalypse would be brought about by Sam and Dean.  Gabriel mentioned that everyone knew it was going to be them from the time the lights switched on--but there weren't any details.  It was the angels who orchestrated getting John and Mary together.  It was Lucifer who told Azazel to choose children to taint with demon blood, and Azazel who killed Mary (and any other parents who got in his way).  The archangels may have known that it was "supposed" to be Sam and Dean, but it appears that the demons didn't, or they wouldn't have infected so many random children and forced them to fight it out.  And when Sam was killed, the angels made sure that he was brought back and put Dean in place to break the first seal, and sent Cas to rescue Dean from hell to become the "righteous man."  Everything was still going according to plan up to that point.   (Remember, it was Uriel and his gang who were tired of waiting and started pushing things to start the Apocalypse.  But they wanted/expected Lucifer to win.) 

It wasn't till the Winchesters started going off-script (or at least, fighting back) that Chuck got interested and started getting involved.  And that's what made them his favorite show--because they *were* unpredictable.  (It wasn't till Dabb's tenure that he made Chuck angry at being foiled in his writing.)

And that, if we follow Dabb's storyline, was what got Chuck obsessed, trying to *make* them follow his scripts and getting first more intrigued and then angrier when not only didn't they obey, but they "corrupted" his other creations (angels, archangels and even demons) to also do things he hadn't planned, and help them rebel.  I think the original idea of Chuck appearing as he did in season 5 was to "guide" them gently back to the story.  He was even amused at first when they kept changing the story, and he had to keep rewriting.  Up through season 11, he liked the boys (and the earth) and wanted to keep them.  It was Dabb who brought him back as a vengeful god, getting more and more frustrated and angrier.  Maybe, to be kind, we can say that a few years traveling with Amara changed him.  She certainly got fed up with him, so maybe his true pettiness started showing as he got bored.  

In any event, it wasn't till he returned that he took over and started throwing more and more obstacles in their path and trying to write their actions and reactions instead of just letting them react themselves--except, since they'd had over 20 years of actual free will before Chuck started watching, they were able to find ways around him.  And that's what finally drove him to take drastic action against them.    

Whether Chuck wrote the whole story of the Winchesters himself or just the last few years, he wrote himself originally as hands-off and benevolent until now.  So I will keep believing that the Winchesters created themselves as heroes and Chuck was trying to claim credit.  I just wish Dean had believed that as well.

 

[tessathereaper]

3 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Been thinking about vampire stats. I think the two main vamp hunts that actually got some screen time (as opposed to heavily implied in dialogue or through a phone call like "oh good job on that nest that you totally did").
Based on # vamps killed, not necessarily by storyline importance:

08.05 
Dean: 4 solo + 1 Andrea distracted by Benny
Benny: 2 solo

10.19  (not really part of the ep but)
Dean: 6 vamps solo "I think that's gotta be a personal best"

 

...and it doesn't really count but the actual (earth) record goes to suped-up vampire Dean obviously
6.05
Dean: at least 10
1 dead mans blood, 1 pushed down stairs (but heavily implied they leave none alive), 1 heavily implied offscreen with splatter, 2 next to her also heavily implied rushing him before a cut, 1 fully on screen, 2 on screen just below frame, 1 heavily implied rushed him after those two, + Boris
Plus I'm pretty sure some of those bodies outfits don't match/account for all the people we see in the nest.

Sam: kills 1 in the bar & 1 on the car outside the nest with Samuel
They witness at least 6 of Deans: walk past 5 bodies on screen + see Boris'
 

 

Ooh that's interesting.  Nice to see those stats.  And Dead Man's Blood was literally their FIRST vampire hunt, before that they thought vampires were extinct. And people handwave it with "but but Chuck..." because of that stupid episode implying the only reason the Winchesters had any skills is because Chuck wrote them that way(which doesn't fit at all with the previously "set the pieces up and see what they do" which he was still doing you know all through their childhood of training and most of their adulthood, etc so their skills really were THEIR OWN, no matter what Badd let go up on screen in his Season 15 attempt to completely dismantle the previous seasons of the show.  No  matter how you look at it the first 14 seasons were not written with "Chuck makes them do everything" it was more they do stuff and Chuck writes about it.  

So Dean was saved in Faith? Chuck didn't cause that to happen specifically to Dean, that happened because of the choices the Winchester's made.  Dean was seriously injured, Sam went looking for a way to save him and found the healer, who was healing other people and had been for quite some time.  Then Chuck wrote about what they did.   It wasn't until nearer the end, that Chuck started trying to force the writing into specific directions and by then they had their skills and their experience and Dean in particular had his way of influencing celestial beings and other forces of nature. 🙂 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

So Dean was saved in Faith? Chuck didn't cause that to happen specifically to Dean, that happened because of the choices the Winchester's made.  Dean was seriously injured, Sam went looking for a way to save him and found the healer, who was healing other people and had been for quite some time.  Then Chuck wrote about what they did. 

This is probably the only ambiguous one, because the reverend specifically says "I didn't pick you, Dean, the Lord did." And later, when Dean questions why, he says, "Well, like I said before, the Lord guides me. I looked into your heart, and you just stood out from all the rest." And then:

DEAN
What did you see in my heart?
ROY
A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn't finished.

Considering what we later knew was Dean's part in the apocalypse, it does seem like Chuck was writing the story as far back as Faith.

This is part of the reason I would speculate (if I believed in Badd's writing at all) that Dean died so soon after the reset, as it were. This was the first time they interfered with the natural order, the first time one of them was saved from certain death by supernatural means.

[ahrtee]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is probably the only ambiguous one, because the reverend specifically says "I didn't pick you, Dean, the Lord did." And later, when Dean questions why, he says, "Well, like I said before, the Lord guides me. I looked into your heart, and you just stood out from all the rest." And then:

DEAN
What did you see in my heart?
ROY
A young man with an important purpose. A job to do. And it isn't finished.

Considering what we later knew was Dean's part in the apocalypse, it does seem like Chuck was writing the story as far back as Faith.

This is part of the reason I would speculate (if I believed in Badd's writing at all) that Dean died so soon after the reset, as it were. This was the first time they interfered with the natural order, the first time one of them was saved from certain death by supernatural means.

I'm not sure if Chuck was actually *writing* the story then (at least, in great detail.)  I also don't know if it was Chuck or one of the Archangels (who were standing in in Chuck's place while he was MIA) who told Roy to save Dean--I don't know if he'd be able to tell whether it was "the lord" or one of the archangels giving the orders.)

But the main reason I'm questioning this is that we all know Chuck's (or the angels') endgame was the Apocalypse.  As Lucifer (and even Michael) said, whatever path they chose, whatever details they changed, they knew the boys would always end up there...until they didn't.  And Chuck seemed to both be surprised and to admire that.  So I think he was still hands-off till Dabb's reign made him vindictive and evil. 

With the endgame still to play out, neither Chuck nor any of the angels wanted to lose one of the major playing pieces, so when something happened (whether Faith, or AHBL, or the car crash, or the Disney brothers, *someone* brought them back to keep them on the board and thus in play.  We don't know if it was actually Chuck, or Zachariah, or Michael (or even Uriel).  We do know that when they landed in heaven in DSOTM, Ash told them that they'd been there many, many times and the angels had always sent them back.  (At that point, no one--especially the angels--knew where Chuck was.)  

But the angels couldn't *force* them to do anything (not even say 'yes'); the archangels (like Michael) were convinced they'd follow the plan no matter what detours they took, and Chuck IMO was enjoying watching them wriggle their way out of problems.  (As a gardening metaphor--taking into account that I have an absolute black thumb and have killed more plants than Jack ever could--consider Chuck planted the seeds and knew that they would grow up as tomatoes, or squash, or roses, but he didn't stake them or give them any special feed or water, just watched to see how they'd survive.  Maybe, if bored, he'd toss in a few slugs or aphids to see how they handled them.  If they were about to die, maybe he'd give some extra rain or send some beneficial bugs to eat the bad ones. 😊)

MY SHORT VERSION:   Chuck set up the Apocalypse then left.  The angels decided to push things to speed them up because they were tired of being on earth.  Chuck was merely an observer (though he--or someone--interfered when the game seemed to be going the wrong way to keep his pieces on the board.)  His published books--which only ran from seasons 1 through 3, ending with Dean going to hell--were partly observation, partly nudging them (he did say he burned both Mary and Jess as "literary symmetry" rather than punishment.)  Once the Apocalypse was averted in season 5, he stayed out of the way, just watching his "favorite show" until Amara showed up and he had to return to save his creation.  

That's where things get funky.  How he went from the benevolent (but hands-off) character in season 11 to throwing the Winchesters under the bus via his writing in season 14, can only be explained as a writer being tired of characters he didn't actually create and can't control, and wanting to kill them off.  And we know who that is.  

[Smad]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Chuck set up the Apocalypse then left.

I don't see it that way. Chuck's only goal seems to have been to pitch brother against brother, namely getting one brother to kill the other. That's what he's been trying to get Dean and Sam to do for Seasons and it's what he did with Michael and Lucifer. The apocalypse is just the backdrop to what he really cares about. Ironically this is a point all the archangels (except Raphael) made. Gabriel pointed it out in Changing Channels, for Michael it's his holy mission and Lucifer basically said God is using them to play out his fantasy of fratricide.

What confuses me is God's need to play out fratricide with multiple siblings. I would understand if God had a brother and they came to blows and he either wants to relive it via proxy or he developed some fetish for it or whatever convoluted reason one can think of. But God never had a brother, he had a sister. His focus on brother/brother conflict and murder makes no sense to me. He should be all about brother/sister conflict.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure if Chuck was actually *writing* the story then (at least, in great detail.)  I also don't know if it was Chuck or one of the Archangels (who were standing in in Chuck's place while he was MIA) who told Roy to save Dean--I don't know if he'd be able to tell whether it was "the lord" or one of the archangels giving the orders.)

But the main reason I'm questioning this is that we all know Chuck's (or the angels') endgame was the Apocalypse.  As Lucifer (and even Michael) said, whatever path they chose, whatever details they changed, they knew the boys would always end up there...until they didn't.  And Chuck seemed to both be surprised and to admire that.  So I think he was still hands-off till Dabb's reign made him vindictive and evil. 

With the endgame still to play out, neither Chuck nor any of the angels wanted to lose one of the major playing pieces, so when something happened (whether Faith, or AHBL, or the car crash, or the Disney brothers, *someone* brought them back to keep them on the board and thus in play.  We don't know if it was actually Chuck, or Zachariah, or Michael (or even Uriel).  We do know that when they landed in heaven in DSOTM, Ash told them that they'd been there many, many times and the angels had always sent them back.  (At that point, no one--especially the angels--knew where Chuck was.)  

But the angels couldn't *force* them to do anything (not even say 'yes'); the archangels (like Michael) were convinced they'd follow the plan no matter what detours they took, and Chuck IMO was enjoying watching them wriggle their way out of problems.  (As a gardening metaphor--taking into account that I have an absolute black thumb and have killed more plants than Jack ever could--consider Chuck planted the seeds and knew that they would grow up as tomatoes, or squash, or roses, but he didn't stake them or give them any special feed or water, just watched to see how they'd survive.  Maybe, if bored, he'd toss in a few slugs or aphids to see how they handled them.  If they were about to die, maybe he'd give some extra rain or send some beneficial bugs to eat the bad ones. 😊)

MY SHORT VERSION:   Chuck set up the Apocalypse then left.  The angels decided to push things to speed them up because they were tired of being on earth.  Chuck was merely an observer (though he--or someone--interfered when the game seemed to be going the wrong way to keep his pieces on the board.)  His published books--which only ran from seasons 1 through 3, ending with Dean going to hell--were partly observation, partly nudging them (he did say he burned both Mary and Jess as "literary symmetry" rather than punishment.)  Once the Apocalypse was averted in season 5, he stayed out of the way, just watching his "favorite show" until Amara showed up and he had to return to save his creation.  

That's where things get funky.  How he went from the benevolent (but hands-off) character in season 11 to throwing the Winchesters under the bus via his writing in season 14, can only be explained as a writer being tired of characters he didn't actually create and can't control, and wanting to kill them off.  And we know who that is.  

Yeah. It is mostly Dabb. I think Chuck's benevolence had cracks by s 11 but I don't think the show is worth a lengthy discussion anymore because Dabb happened.

I think Chuck found Dean interesting in particular because he had the tendency to go out of the box, off script plan, B and convert others to ho along. It made things interesting and different. He kept throwing Apocalypse at them and watching and Dean kept doing his thing, suffering and blaming himself.

The reason Chuck went nuts now is because Dabb clearly has it in for Jensen and Chuck Hatcher a plan to manipulate Dean to take ou Jack who had become a threat. Chuck set it up perfectly. Jack commits  virtual matricide causing Dean to commit virtual infanticide. Poignant, biblical, tragically and classical... and oh so bloody. Chuck saw it as necessary and a slam dunk having watched Dean for years.

Likewise Chuck thought Dean would kill Sam in Unity. 

IDK... s 15 was really bad. The finale was horrible. Those theatrical ghost episodes were the best perhaps... sadly. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Having also re-watched Dead Mans blood recently though. (unless I lost focus at exactly the wrong moment) Jenny isn't named. At all. A quick ctrl-f of the transcript supports my memory. 🤣

The only place where her name was mentioned was on IMDB.  I guess we are supposed to guess that Dean and Sam researched who she was after all the trauma of the next several seasons?

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Having also re-watched Dead Mans blood recently though. (unless I lost focus at exactly the wrong moment) Jenny isn't named. At all. A quick ctrl-f of the transcript supports my memory

But, Chuck put some details in the books that weren't on screen. So, if Dean read Dead Man's Blood, he might have known her name.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

The only place where her name was mentioned was on IMDB.  I guess we are supposed to guess that Dean and Sam researched who she was after all the trauma of the next several seasons?

This one dumb thing in an episode full of dumb things would have made so much more sense if it was Kate, who actually had reason for a grudge against Dean (and Sam), that 'called dibs', not Jenny.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This one dumb thing in an episode full of dumb things would have made so much more sense if it was Kate, who actually had reason for a grudge against Dean (and Sam), that 'called dibs', not Jenny.

I'm assuming from a production standpoint, they couldn't get the Kate actress.  I'm assuming from a story standpoint, Kate died somewhere along the way.  I think Jenny has a reason to hold a grudge.  The Winchesters basically made her the equivalent of a vampire orphan about a day after she was turned.  yes, there's no doubt that Kate would have been better, but the Jenny actress is Vancouver based. If the Kate actress is not, I can handle the change.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm assuming from a production standpoint, they couldn't get the Kate actress.  I'm assuming from a story standpoint, Kate died somewhere along the way.  I think Jenny has a reason to hold a grudge.  The Winchesters basically made her the equivalent of a vampire orphan about a day after she was turned.  yes, there's no doubt that Kate would have been better, but the Jenny actress is Vancouver based. If the Kate actress is not, I can handle the change.

It's sad how much we have to assume in order to make sense of what is on the screen. Especially when there was no need for any of the vampires to have 'dibs', to have a grudge. Vampires kill, it's what they do, and especially when someone is actively trying to kill them. I'm guessing a large majority of viewers had no idea who "Jenny" was, never mind identifying the actress. With all the hand-waving we have to do, having Dean call her 'Kate' wouldn't have been any more of a stretch, IMO. They did it in the season opener with the Woman in White, and Sarah Shahi is a much more recognizable actor.

[kickingnames]

I’ve been doing a semi-rewatch that included a some episodes that I had not seen (I switched from watching to mostly reading recaps several years back, with only a few exceptions), and I get the sense that Chuck’s personality and motivations just sort of morph to match those of the showrunner at the time.

Chuck sort of went from faux-unaware of his power (pretending that none of the problems with the story-world were his fault), to aware of his power and kind-of learning to set right his mistakes (even when he wasn’t great at it), to actively trying to both take credit for everything that had happened and also burn to the ground everything that he’d supposedly built up to that point, just to spite two characters with whom he couldn’t have his way. That last bit is just ridiculous, and a large reason why the way the show came to an end is so sad (pathetic sad, not cathartic sad).

I mean, season 15 is just bad, there’s no getting around that. But a badly written season featuring an author-insert character with badly written motivations about getting his way through his bad writing = so many cringe moments (and I’ve managed to sit through only about half the season). The idea that anyone thought “Chuck as a bitter, petulant child with too much control over the lives of the actual main characters” was clever in any way is just sort of embarrassing.

That being said, that opening sequence to the “Atomic Monsters” episode was almost worth the season’s price of admission. (I may need to watch it a few hundred more times to be sure.)

Edited December 2, 2020 by kickingnames

[Casseiopeia]

53 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm assuming from a production standpoint, they couldn't get the Kate actress.  I'm assuming from a story standpoint, Kate died somewhere along the way.  I think Jenny has a reason to hold a grudge.  The Winchesters basically made her the equivalent of a vampire orphan about a day after she was turned.  yes, there's no doubt that Kate would have been better, but the Jenny actress is Vancouver based. If the Kate actress is not, I can handle the change.

But why bring her up at all as someone the Winchesters knew (since they didn't know her name then)? She wasn't important to the episode other than that brief glimpse of her in their first vamp nest.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Casseiopeia

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:33 AM, PinkChicken said:

Been thinking about vampire stats. I think the two main (biggest - highest kills?) vamp hunts that actually got some screen time (as opposed to heavily implied in dialogue or through a phone call like "oh good job on that nest that you totally did").
Based on # vamps killed, not necessarily by storyline importance:

08.05 
Dean: 4 solo + 1 Andrea distracted by Benny
Benny: 2 solo

10.19  (not really part of the ep but)
Dean: 6 vamps solo "I think that's gotta be a personal best"

 

...and it doesn't really count but the actual (earth) record goes to suped-up vampire Dean obviously
6.05
Dean: at least 10 solo
1 dead mans blood, 1 pushed down stairs (but heavily implied they leave none alive), 1 heavily implied offscreen with splatter, 2 next to her also heavily implied rushing him before a cut, 1 fully on screen, 2 on screen just below frame, 1 heavily implied rushed him after those two, + Boris
Plus I'm pretty sure some of those bodies outfits don't match/account for all the people we see in the nest.

Sam: kills 1 in the bar & 1 on the car outside the nest with Samuel
They witness at least 6 of Deans: walk past 5 bodies on screen + see Boris'
 

 

Exactly. Dean is the MAN at killing vamps... WHEN IS DECAPITATION NOT HIS THING. 

Dabb just has an axe to grind and doesn't know anything.

[MAK]

Very new to this forum, but had to point out something. 

Chuck could write whatever, but he couldn't control actions. This was shown when he tried to force Eileen to dig out the bullet in Sam's shoulder. Her actions were very clunky, like she had zero fine motor skills. If Chuck could control actions, Eileen could have performed microsurgery with a spoon. But she couldn't even properly dig into Sam's shoulder. 

Kind of what happened to Dean when he went to kill Sam, but killed Death instead, when he he went to kill Jack, but lowered the gun.  In both of these instances, Dean had thought about and decided to commit each of those actions. They weren'tin the "heat of the moment." But last minute when shown what was happening, he stood down.

This, IMO, proves that Chuck, and the Angels could put thoughts in people's head,  and influence/brainwash them so that they thought a certain way. But couldn't really make them take action.

[gonzosgirrl]

Unfortunately, consistency is pretty much non-existent in Badd's universe, especially as concerns Chuck. Why then did everything turn to shit when he took their 'luck' away? Did they just not have a strong enough will to overcome it (as they overcame killing each other)?

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Unfortunately, consistency is pretty much non-existent in Badd's universe, especially as concerns Chuck. Why then did everything turn to shit when he took their 'luck' away? Did they just not have a strong enough will to overcome it (as they overcame killing each other)?

Have I mentioned how stupid it was to have God as a character at all, much less the big bad of the last season?  Oh, 6,000 times already?  Sorry, I just can't help myself.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Have I mentioned how stupid it was to have God as a character at all, much less the big bad of the last season?  Oh, 6,000 times already?  Sorry, I just can't help myself.

You have, but it bears repeating. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[Aeryn13]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You have, but it bears repeating. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

And it makes it ten times as bad that apparently the first hunt they went on post-Chuck went the way of Dean dying a stupid death. Maybe it wasn`t meant to be the first but the episode did ZERO to clarify that.   

[MAK]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And it makes it ten times as bad that apparently the first hunt they went on post-Chuck went the way of Dean dying a stupid death. Maybe it wasn`t meant to be the first but the episode did ZERO to clarify that.   

I don't think this was the first hunt post Chuck. IMO, the hunts were less and far between. Because of other reasons, there must have been more time between Chuck and the finale.

The writing sucked. They literally didn't care. It was like, "let's get this over with" for them.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, MAK said:

I don't think this was the first hunt post Chuck. IMO, the hunts were less and far between. Because of other reasons, there must have been more time between Chuck and the finale.

The writing sucked. They literally didn't care. It was like, "let's get this over with" for them.

We can and will speculate and fill in blanks for ourselves, but unfortunately, canon is what makes it to the screen. If there were other hunts, even one other hunt, they should have shown or hinted at that in the montage. They didn't. They made a point of there being nothing on the radar with their 'research' in the opener, only Dean finding his destiny in a pie festival. Jared himself said a few weeks at most.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

We can and will speculate and fill in blanks for ourselves, but unfortunately, canon is what makes it to the screen. If there were other hunts, even one other hunt, they should have shown or hinted at that in the montage. They didn't. They made a point of there being nothing on the radar with their 'research' in the opener, only Dean finding his destiny in a pie festival. Jared himself said a few weeks at most.

Yes, headcanon is coulda, woulda, shoulda.

And just like people could or could not headcanon if Dean had importance in 5.22 - maybe it was the car or the toy soldier or just Sam - because the episode didn't bother to establish it beyond a shred of doubt, Badd did the same thing with "it was all Chuck (or not or only 5 % or 10 % or 75 % or whatever) and with how much time passes in the episode. Evidently, it wasn't in the script even 

So it makes perfect sense to see the episode and think "first hunt, two days later". Nothing within the episode contradicts that.

That it wasn't even an important or heroic death unfortunately speaks even more to "all Chuck" because the second that stopped, Dean dies the lamest death I've seen a main character die in, I can't even remember.

And apparently this is, insult to injury, supposed to be a great thing because a short pointless death was all he ever dreamed about in life as long as Sam had it good. God forbid Dean could have wanted some happiness for himself, much less get it. He gets a drab-looking wasteland of a "heaven" where he waits around till Sam shows up.

It's gonna be mighty awkward if Sam's blurry wife and son show up later. Since Dean is on mindless Sam-drone mode in heaven, what is he gonna do if he is gonna get shelved for Sam's family? Or is it gonna be the other way around and the family will be shelved? Sam has options at least.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Aeryn13

[MAK]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

11 hours ago, MAK said:

 

We can and will speculate and fill in blanks for ourselves, but unfortunately, canon is what makes it to the screen. If there were other hunts, even one other hunt, they should have shown or hinted at that in the montage. They didn't. They made a point of there being nothing on the radar with their 'research' in the opener, only Dean finding his destiny in a pie festival. Jared himself said a few weeks at most

Yes, we are filling in blanks, and I too try to keep within the parameters of what makes it to the screen. But, there are some things the writers don't bother showing or explaining through dialogue. Throughout the show, "time" is one of those things. 

Kind of like, we have never seen Dean cut/buzz his hair on screen. (Can't be sure if it's mentioned beyond the ad lib line of "give me 5 minutes with a clipper" from Jensen.) But that doesn't mean that Dean never cuts his hair. It's obvious he does.

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, MAK said:

Yes, we are filling in blanks, and I too try to keep within the parameters of what makes it to the screen. But, there are some things the writers don't bother showing or explaining through dialogue. Throughout the show, "time" is one of those things. 

Kind of like, we have never seen Dean cut/buzz his hair on screen. (Can't be sure if it's mentioned beyond the ad lib line of "give me 5 minutes with a clipper" from Jensen.) But that doesn't mean that Dean never cuts his hair. It's obvious he does.

Well, that's just a few minutes of time spent that have no real importance.  When they have longer time jumps, they tend to show or tell.  Aside from the cards that said "two weeks later" or "one year later," and the six months of Sam hunting alone after Dean died the final time in Mystery Spot (which was mostly through visuals interspersed with phone messages from Bobby), they also had a very effective (silent) montage when they were mourning Bobby.  It showed them sitting around blankly at first, then gradually doing daily things, then starting to research, then getting deeper into research/obsession.  We got to see not only time passing, but how it was affecting them and how they were working through it.  So we know it can be done by something other than watching them make toast or do laundry.  Even multiple scenes of laundry** would indicate more time had passed.

**ETA: Or doing anything more than once:  several meals, separated by times of them reading, or even sitting around talking, or going to the store.  (It would have been nice to see them actually doing something they enjoyed!)  But *one* shot of breakfast, one of washing dishes, one of cleaning guns, one of laundry, makes it seem like it was all in a very short time.

Edited December 4, 2020 by ahrtee
additional thoughts

[MAK]

Absolutely it can be done well and has been done well. But I think the writers cared back then. It doesn't seem like the writers cared now.

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, MAK said:

Absolutely it can be done well and has been done well. But I think the writers cared back then. It doesn't seem like the writers cared now.

That's kind of the point.  If the writers don't care and didn't bother to think things through, why should we write our own headcanon and fill in the blanks in order to make it appear that they did?  Just stick with what's on screen and don't give them any credit for things they didn't say or show.  That's canon.

 

[MAK]

I wasn't giving the writers credit, that's the last thing I want to do. I was going off more by the characters that have been developed on screen by the actors. According to JA and JP, not every single word and reaction was scripted, they had leeway for their take on situations, which would make all the acting choices/characterizations canon also.  IMO, based on their (characters) previous reactions, there would have been a time lapse.

Edited December 4, 2020 by MAK
Space in between words.

[falltime]

What happened with this? Did I blink and miss it? What episode was this for? 

[ILoveReading]

25 minutes ago, falltime said:

What happened with this? Did I blink and miss it? What episode was this for? 

Apparently Robert Wisdom was filming something else in the area and dropped by to visit.

[falltime]

On 12/4/2020 at 2:00 PM, ILoveReading said:

Apparently Robert Wisdom was filming something else in the area and dropped by to visit.

Lol for real?  there was a bunch of articles saying he was going to be in an episode. I thought they got their info from more than just Misha's tweet.

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:14 PM, MAK said:

Very new to this forum, but had to point out something. 

Chuck could write whatever, but he couldn't control actions. This was shown when he tried to force Eileen to dig out the bullet in Sam's shoulder. Her actions were very clunky, like she had zero fine motor skills. If Chuck could control actions, Eileen could have performed microsurgery with a spoon. But she couldn't even properly dig into Sam's shoulder. 

Kind of what happened to Dean when he went to kill Sam, but killed Death instead, when he he went to kill Jack, but lowered the gun.  In both of these instances, Dean had thought about and decided to commit each of those actions. They weren'tin the "heat of the moment." But last minute when shown what was happening, he stood down.

This, IMO, proves that Chuck, and the Angels could put thoughts in people's head,  and influence/brainwash them so that they thought a certain way. But couldn't really make them take action.

Yes. And this is more or less what Chuck describes to Amara in Unity. 

It is not like he is Dabb and writes a script and every word is followed.

He is pretty good at manipulating things to go his way in the end usually with most beings in most universes.

 

[AwesomO4000]

Been mostly away for a while, and on catching up, decided that I'd revisit this ; ) ...

On 11/23/2020 at 12:46 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Jared is, of course,  free to have his own perception of his character. I'll assume his heart is in the right place in helping members of the fandom feel seen.

I would challenge anyone, however, to point out to me anything in canon that supports Sam being bi, easily or any other way. 

On 11/23/2020 at 6:14 PM, catrox14 said:

Sam is for sure pansexual when it comes to getting with monsters and demons. LOL

Of course catrox14 makes an excellent point!

But I always thought that Robbie Thompson missed an obvious joke in "Fanfiction" as Sam was waxing poetically on what a ship between him and Castiel would be called (by the way, Sam, it's either Sastiel as you guessed second or Sassy*** depending on the context of the fanfic, never Samstiel that I'm aware of). Dean should entirely have said, eyebrows raised and smirk in place "Got something you're trying to tell me there, Sam?" Because it entirely needed to be said, in my opinion. (And in my head I would imagine Sam's "answer" to be him looking up sideways, doing that frowny mouth consideration expression of his, and jogging his head back in forth and then a smirk back at Dean to freak him out. A joking "Hey, you gotta admit Cas looks kinda dark and mysterious in that trenchcoat," would've been maybe been pushing it - though entirely within Sam's sense of humor, in my opinion - but a gal can imagine.)

Of course, some Destiel shippers might've had a fit, but I could entirely believe Sam considering something for a fleeting moment there when he said that, based on the reflective way he was saying it.

(And on a this is entirely my opinion only front, I personally thought Sastiel made more sense character-wise... mostly based on their shared experiences of messing up and in disappointing Dean... their love for Dean being something they'd share and would bond over to bring them together. Obviously, though, based on the relative rarity of Sastiel fic this is a minority opinion. I do like, however that there is a subgenre of Sam/Cass though... a subgenre maybe not as suited to Dean/Cass, since by nature Dean/Cass fanfics are generally going to contain some sort of angst based on their relationship.)

 

But otherwise I got nothing else at the moment... except that Crowley seemed to observe or pick up on something in that Sam was generally his hint hint (and sometimes more overt) sexual innuendo brother, whereas Dean was his "buddy" brother. Maybe Crowley was picking up on something ; ).

*** For those not familiar with the genre, Sassy fic is a Sam/Casstiel fic that is lighter and more fluffy in nature, entirely devoid of angst. It is a rare bird to be sure, but does exist. (Or at least did - it may be extinct now.)

Edited December 14, 2020 by AwesomO4000

[Pondlass1]

It’s the subconscious things people pick up on. Human nature being what it is. Nothing to do with script or storyline. Jared shared chemistry with Jensen but not with Misha. So Sastiel could never thrive.

Of the three Jensen has the most talent and thirst for challenge. Jared has landed his perfect gig in Texas, Misha has found his niche in philanthropy and Jensen likely will go on to enjoy a very successful career in film and TV. 

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

It’s the subconscious things people pick up on. Human nature being what it is. Nothing to do with script or storyline. Jared shared chemistry with Jensen but not with Misha. So Sastiel could never thrive.

Of the three Jensen has the most talent and thirst for challenge. Jared has landed his perfect gig in Texas, Misha has found his niche in philanthropy and Jensen likely will go on to enjoy a very successful career in film and TV. 

Misha may also go into politics. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Jensen throws a little work Misha's way in the future dependent upon what projects his company is working on and if there's a role he would be suited for.

But for the most part, this is what happens, people move on from each other and go their separate ways when a project is done. I know Jared said something to the effect that he and Jensen would work together again sooner than later, but I really doubt that's true. Even a fixit revist of the series would be further down the line. I think at best, and again sometime in the future, Jensen might agree to direct an episode of Walker, if it fits into his schedule. But that's as close to working together again in the near future that I can envision.

Once The Boys starts filming, Jensen's unlikely to be able to come back into the states anyway until numbers come down and the vaccine is spread wider into the population. Otherwise, he'll have to fly into Toronto two weeks before he starts filming to quarantine, and then that's where he'll stay for a few to several months.

[Airmid]

This is from the Lore thread since my post is more complaint than response/questions about the lore, original post from @Katy M

Quote

I don't think Hell has cell service:)

Hmm, under Crowley it seemed to. Though admittedly it was hard to tell half the time just were Crowley was [throne room in hell or raunchy warehouse on earth - you decide!] and demons did resort often to the blood bowl talking spell though they aren't the brightest bunch. The real question for me is why even go to hell to talk to Michael? If the door to the Cage is open and they want to talk to Michael [and it's been weeks at this point so why would he be hanging out outside of trauma], why not secure an area and just pray to him directly? Skip all the pesky murderous demons and give themselves a safety net as Michael was still an archangel. Not like they had any kind of safety net planned if they did actually find him in hell. How did they think that was going to go down, smoke signal SOS to pull the spell and zap them back?

Did I miss something about hell being so easy to prance around in? I mean it was bad enough in S8 but they still had to get a rogue reaper and sacrifice Dean's buddy and Sam had to work his way the whole twenty feet to the back door while in purgatory, but still. Rowena had this fancy spell? Did no one, at all ever question what happened to Rowena when she closed the Rift? I admit I didn't watch all the episodes - at least not without copious amounts of FF or simply wandering off for a few to get a snack, so is there a reason why the main characters are just this stupid outside of the writers can't write smart main characters because they can't plot their way out of a paper bag?

Dabb's seasons always make me want to tear out my hair on how they diminish characters but it's even worse in the last few episodes. Last holiday for example:

- So not even angels/archangels sensed an immensely powerful wood nymph in the Bunker and went to go see what was up?

- The MoL figured out that not only were there multiple universes but they built a telescope to view them? And no one noticed this? 

- A wood nymph is powerful enough to fuel something like this telescope when previously it's been shown to take a whole bunch of archangel grace and complicated spell work for those not named Chuck/Amara to travel between worlds. I mean did Gabriel figure it out, supply some grace decades ago for shits and giggles and just forget to tell anyone about it?

- This makes our Michael look so exceptionally stupid. A bunch of humans and a wood nymph not only figure out this big secret but build a device to watch them right under his nose. 

- A wood nymph was powerful enough to drug something like Jack at all?

I mean there's Billie, that for some strange reason was dying from a wound from her own weapon that for other non-mortal characters wouldn't have been fatal. Cas himself has been stabbed close to his 'heart' all the way back into S6 with the appropriate weapon but managed to drag himself back from death. But Death itself can't do this, or is so hell bent on murder that she doesn't take the time to set up the next reaper to finish the whole plan? The past Death was calculating and seemed to have awareness of what was going on around him. Does Death get dumber the more times a reaper has to die to fill the position?

How does the whole Death system even work? It seems counter-intuitive and why didn't reapers know this is how things worked? I mean, there were rogue reapers at one point at time, right? And reapers kind of went insane for a bit due to the veil being closed, right? So, did Chuck just make up the Death system rules when Dean offed the old Death? Who reaps Death, anyways, and why would this being ever be reapable?

And Jack - for the love of creation - Chuck created everything in the main universe and countless others by his own sheer power. No matter how many being one vacuums up they aren't going to match his core raw power [not to mention being coupled with Amara] and that also doesn't even address the question of how Jack existing in creation with the powers from said creation can wipe out the creation's creator. I know they banged on about him absorbing stuff from The Empty, but she was ready to kick his doe-eyed ass before Billie pulled him out. If something that's been shown to be weaker than Chuck [no matter what the tell is, the show is that this is true], a couple of archangels and some shed power later isn't going to make something strong enough to defeat the being that made everything.

Why did Chuck even allow the creation of Jack? Why did he allow Amara to be free and look like he was going to die? His creations have run off on him before and Amara while influenced, was still her own being? Why let things get to this point? I could see the original argument I saw some had that he was so for free will and didn't want a confrontation with her [along with possible guilt] that he allowed the events to progress, but his actions make no sense in light of later seasons. Did the writers ever stop and consider the Michael and Gabriel problem their script? Lol, who am I kidding, of course not.

This show...it's always had the problem of pissing on it's own characters and lore. Dean and Sam's hell experiences are an example along with the fandom for some reason arguing which was the worst. Dean was trapped in the pit with his torturer's goal not just being that he break the seal but to demonize him as much as possible from sheer glee inflicting on him an endless self-perpetuating torture until he was demonized and escaped hell. Sam was with a being that didn't want to demonize him but wanted him to suffer, no chance for escape until his soul finally collapsed. They're both horrific in their own unique way but although this show has a love-affair with torture it often doesn't want to talk about the aftermath. Then later on solitary confinement for a few months is the worse thing ever for these guys? Like, was the presence of their torturer the real make or break point for them? Was their torturer that good of a companion? Isolation is horrid, it really is and has lasting consequences, but these guys have been through hell, literally. It would have been nice to see them laugh in the face of this before their "family" got off their asses and came and got them. And weirdly, given their Lucifer fetish, they never address the disastrous consequences of his very, very long period in isolation, especially since angels seem to be social creatures who often do want their family and have their own society even if it's not one we like. 

And it was even more undermined by Gabriel's handful of years of torture was just so unspeakably bad, or Cas having stupidly allowed himself to be Lucifer's vessel, was just so much worse. Like, really? Or that prancing around in hell didn't affect either one of them - a problem going all the way back to S8 for Sam. 

I actually would have liked for Sam to be portrayed as actually smart, not just the show telling us this. Like, take for example, his leaving Lucifer in the AU world. It's understandable that he wouldn't want Lucifer to come with. Totally agree. But five seconds of looking at this situation spells out how bad it is. Lucifer knows how to open the portal and Sam ditched him in front of a pissed off being wanting to open said portal to rampage after their one friendly archangel was ganked in front of them. Like - why even wait around while Gabriel is dying? Then to leave another archangel with esoteric knowledge like that's not setting up a revolving door? Thankfully Michael didn't just march his army right on through - though why he didn't as his angels seemed ready to die for him is also a mystery. Poor Sam. 

I would have cheered if the actual series finale opened with them gearing up to slip into Purgatory to go get another bloom so they could bind Jack [he'd show up, let's be real, he's dumb, they could find a reason to get him to swing by even if it was just a false Chuck alarm] and then let Amara run the universe, no matter how plot stupid she was written the last time we saw her.

And finally, Chuck. Why leave him as a human on his own, unsupervised? Like, we've seen what humans can do just through the brothers. Sam accidentally started the end of the world a couple of times here. Chuck knows how the whole entire cosmos works, all the spells that control it, and a lot of anger. At least, I dunno, mind wipe him or toss him in heaven's prison, or something responsible. Though, I mean, it's not like leaving hostile depowered parties to their own devices hasn't bitten them in the ass before...oh, wait.

Sorry, wanted to vent and it was therapeutic. 

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Though admittedly it was hard to tell half the time just were Crowley was [throne room in hell or raunchy warehouse on earth - you decide!]

I didn't think Crowley was ever in Hell when we were seeing him. I thought his throne room was in that warehouse.

But as for everything else. Yeah, it's all pretty much stupid.  They depowered everything and once you find out about something, after the initial difficulty of gaining access, or killing, it's easy peasy from then on.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Katy M

[MAK]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

so is there a reason why the main characters are just this stupid outside of the writers can't write smart main characters because they can't plot their way out of a paper bag?

That's really the correct answer to all questions. There was no one who was able to jump into this universe and do it justice after Kripke left. And even Kripke wasn't too much into the lore/mythology part. He was into to horror/gore, special effects parts. (Based on his answer to the question of what his favorite part of season 1 was, or something, and he said when the plumber's hand got eaten up by the garbage disposal in "Home.") Literally no other writer cared.