Speculation Only

[gonzosgirrl]

Speculation only ahead. Jim Michaels tweeted out his usual tech survey tweet for Episode 18. He also responded with this:

Which makes me assume he must be getting questions. I can't recall when the early renewal was announced last season (was that the blanket renewal that CW did? anyway...) but the year before it was right before VegasCon, which is coming up in a couple weeks. I've gone back and forth on it, but my prediction/speculation is that if we don't get an announcement before then with a 'normal' renewal, then they are saving it for Paleyfest, when they'll announce renewal for a 14th and final season. I just feel like there's a reason they are coming back to Paley after all this time.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Speculation only ahead. Jim Michaels tweeted out his usual tech survey tweet for Episode 18. He also responded with this:

Which makes me assume he must be getting questions. I can't recall when the early renewal was announced last season (was that the blanket renewal that CW did? anyway...) but the year before it was right before VegasCon, which is coming up in a couple weeks. I've gone back and forth on it, but my prediction/speculation is that if we don't get an announcement before then with a 'normal' renewal, then they are saving it for Paleyfest, when they'll announce renewal for a 14th and final season. I just feel like there's a reason they are coming back to Paley after all this time.

I agree with this reading of things.  Paley Fest is a big deal.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which makes me assume he must be getting questions. I can't recall when the early renewal was announced last season (was that the blanket renewal that CW did?

Yes, last year, they blanket renewed almost every show on the network in, I believe, January. I think we'll get a hint by the end of the month. I would guess they're still discussing Wayward, and I think both of those announcements will come at the same time.

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just feel like there's a reason they are coming back to Paley after all this time.

Oh, I don't know, seems like they've been doing approximately a 6-year cycle on Paleyfest. And, Supernatural has gotten a ton of main stream notice this year. I think it could just be they felt it was time to invite the boys back. I think a final season announcement will be at the Up Fronts--whenever that happens--and they'll make it a big deal. So, if we don't hear by the end of the month, it could be they're planning a final season announcement, but I don't think they'll announce it at Paleyfest.

Edited February 6, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yes, last year, they blanket renewed almost every show on the network in, I believe, January. I think we'll get a hint by the end of the month. I would guess they're still discussing Wayward, and I think both of those announcements will come at the same time.

Oh, I don't know, seems like they've been doing approximately a 6-year cycle on Paleyfest. And, Supernatural has gotten a ton of main stream notice this year. I think it could just be they felt it was time to invite the boys back. I think they'll final season announcement will be at the Up Fronts--whenever that happens--and they'll make it a big deal. So, if we don't hear by the end of the month, it could be they're planning a final season announcement, but I don't think they'll announce it at Paleyfest.

It's partially because of all the notice this year, the hullabaloo at ComicCon, etc., combined with the Paleyfest appearance that I'm getting this feeling. So yeah, it might not be until Up Fronts, but I'll be convinced of it if there is no renewal announcement by VegasCon.

[Wayward Son]

For those curious here are the renewal announcement dates for the last few seasons

 

Season 11: 11th January 2015

Season 12: 11th March 2016

Season 13: 8th January 2017

[Wayward Son]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I believe they just made reference to that in the Tombstone episode this season, talking about Dean making Cas watch the movie, Tombstone.  I can imagine them introducing him to all sorts of movies and things over the years, trying to help "humanize" him.  It would be fun to see some of those moments.

The reality is that it would simply be fun to see more scenes of TFW together, and that includes Crowley.  I love how they all play off one another.  I'm just not enamored with most of the additions to the cast recently, with the exception of Jack.  I think he actually fits in well with TFW, but I don't see how that can last, considering what and who he is.

 

I have no committed thoughts on what the writers have planned for Jack in the long term so I’m not committed to any of the options I am about to list. However, I could foresee one of the following happening:

 

- If they want to keep Jack on the show long term due to a positive reaction then I could see them having Lucifer take some or possibly all of Jack’s grace. This would result in Jack’s powers being lessened enough that he could remain on the show without overshadowing Sam and Dean and making conflicts too easy. 

 

- If they want to get rid of him as a regular, but leave the door open for future storylines, then I could see them making him become ruler of the AU world. That would effectively separate him from our world and also prove Jack’s vision to Cas true in a way none of the characters would expect (although a lot of fans have guessed) 

 

- If they want him to be a one season and done character then they could easily have him fall from grace (figuratively) and become an out and out bad guy who is destroyed by the end of the season. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I have no committed thoughts on what the writers have planned for Jack in the long term so I’m not committed to any of the options I am about to list. However, I could foresee one of the following happening:

 

- If they want to keep Jack on the show long term due to a positive reaction then I could see them having Lucifer take some or possibly all of Jack’s grace. This would result in Jack’s powers being lessened enough that he could remain on the show without overshadowing Sam and Dean and making conflicts too easy. 

 

- If they want to get rid of him as a regular, but leave the door open for future storylines, then I could see them making him become ruler of the AU world. That would effectively separate him from our world and also prove Jack’s vision to Cas true in a way none of the characters would except (although a lot of fans have guessed) 

 

- If they want him to be a one season and done character then they could easily have him fall from grace (figuratively) and become an out and out bad guy who is destroyed by the end of the season. 

And there is the option of him sacrificing himself to save the universe. I think that's the most likely exit for him if it comes to that. I really don't think Jack will go dark side at this point.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

And there is the option of him sacrificing himself to save the universe. I think that's the most likely exit for him if it comes to that. I really don't think Jack will go dark side at this point.

Yes that’s also an option. It’ll be interesing to see where the writers go. With Jack, AU Michael and Lucifer all on the field as potential big bads depending on story direction I honestly have no clue haha

[companionenvy]

I wonder if Jack and Mary aren't both going to wind up in the AU-world. I think it is pretty clear that the show has no interest in having Mary be a regular part of her sons' lives. Presumably, she's going to return to our world sometime this season. That would leave the show with, I assume, at least one more season of inventing reasons for Mary to be off-screen. Granted, they've done it with Cas for ages, but I suspect that's mostly because they wrote themselves into a corner where Cas was too popular and too integral to the show to get rid of. Creating a reason for Mary to voluntarily stay/go back to the AU removes that issue. 

I thought last season that they were setting her up to be the one to raise Jack, in secret. That ship sailed, but her finding her mission helping Jack and AU Bobby in the altworld might provide a version of what I had in mind. 

[Commando Cody]

Patience repeated tonight. It reminded me, at the end of the episode, that few people stay dead on this show. The big empty is another vehicle for bringing angels back. If Jack could wake Castiel, he could probably wake up others. Jack could raise an army - from the dead. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Commando Cody

[FlickChick]

20 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Patience repeated tonight. It reminded me, at the end of the episode, that few people stay dead on this show. The big empty is another vehicle for bringing angels back. If Jack could wake Castiel, he could probably wake up others. Jack could raise an army - from the dead. 

Are you referring to repopulating Heaven with all the currently dead angels? Or perhaps, Jack could actually have a dark side and attempt to take over Earth with his angel army. Either could be interesting - especially the latter, since I think Dark!Jack would be more interesting than the cinnamon roll version. But that's just me.

[Commando Cody]

21 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Are you referring to repopulating Heaven with all the currently dead angels? Or perhaps, Jack could actually have a dark side and attempt to take over Earth with his angel army. Either could be interesting - especially the latter, since I think Dark!Jack would be more interesting than the cinnamon roll version. But that's just me.

I think it started with if the writers needed a way to bring back Lucifer or Gabriel, this is a way. It kind of led to thinking that Jack could repopulate heaven, but if they needed an army to fight the AU angels, they could do it this way too. I think most of the main cast has shown a "dark side". I'm sure there will be a Dark Jack at some point as well - even if it's only temporary. 

[FlickChick]

Quote

You do know you're watching Supernatural, right? 

ETA:  Even Sam and Dean don't get happy endings.

Which got me to thinking, I wonder how this will end for Sam and Dean. With all of their trials, mistakes, heartbreak, deaths, disappointments, pain and suffering, will the writers go opposite and give them a "happy ending"? Or will the writers give them the worst of sad endings - going out together, saving people, perhaps saving the world (again)?

I think that the latter would be the honest ending, but I know many others would disagree. Even Bobby and Rufus who lived a longer life than most (I suspect), died while hunting in the end. I also wonder if the Js have told TPTB how they want it to end. If so, I think it would not be rainbows and puppies. Anyway, thoughts on a given hiatus Thursday.

[Res]

35 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Which got me to thinking, I wonder how this will end for Sam and Dean. With all of their trials, mistakes, heartbreak, deaths, disappointments, pain and suffering, will the writers go opposite and give them a "happy ending"? Or will the writers give them the worst of sad endings - going out together, saving people, perhaps saving the world (again)?

I think that the latter would be the honest ending, but I know many others would disagree. Even Bobby and Rufus who lived a longer life than most (I suspect), died while hunting in the end. I also wonder if the Js have told TPTB how they want it to end. If so, I think it would not be rainbows and puppies. Anyway, thoughts on a given hiatus Thursday.

I recently read a very dark fanfic that basically had Sam and Dean becoming co-rulers of Hell because of the constant deals and sacrificing the world to save each other. But as rulers of Hell, they made sure that only the guilty were punished and kept things in order. Cas was upset that they were stuck down there but it was pointed out as long as they have each other, they would always be happy and in a way they were still saving the world. Plus, neither Sam nor Dean would have been content to stay in Heaven's Memorex lands. 

While, like Cas, I hated that, it makes perfect sense with the MANDATORY MANDATE of the show that Sam and Dean MUST ALWAYS end up together and the fact that they do all the deals and sacrificing, IMO this would be the only true ending based on what TPTB's have mandated.

[FlickChick]

Interesting theory. Of course, we would never see that, but it makes sense given the mandate.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Interesting theory. Of course, we would never see that, but it makes sense given the mandate.

 

59 minutes ago, Res said:

While, like Cas, I hated that, it makes perfect sense with the MANDATORY MANDATE of the show that Sam and Dean MUST ALWAYS end up together and the fact that they do all the deals and sacrificing, IMO this would be the only true ending based on what TPTB's have mandated.

Given that both Heaven and Hell are without leaders what if it ended with each brother taking on one to rule for eternity? Or the brothers taking on Hell while Cas is in charge of Heaven? I don't like either theory but I wonder what's next with both Crowley and Asmodeus being dead and Heaven on the verge of shutting down.

[Pondlass1]

Not being a big fan of heaven or hell, I'd prefer the brothers die while saving people, hunting things... you know, the family business.

They'd die together of course.  But that doesn't mean their deaths would stick.... and they'd be resurrected for Supernatural: The Movie, directed by Quentin Tarantino. ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

Pretty much everything Jensen has said about Dean and Sam supports the idea that he sees them as heroes. I don't see him agreeing* to any ending that doesn't honor that - and I don't think ruling Hell for any reason would qualify. I believe it will either end open-ended, with a 'we've got work to do' trunk shot, or, with one or both of them dead. Unfortunately (for me at less, YMMV) I think they have made such a complete mockery of ultimate consequences that the impact of a blaze of glory death is negligible. I just won't buy it.

*I know Jensen and Jared are just actors and don't write/run the show, but I have to believe at this point their opinions on the ending would carry some weight.

[companionenvy]

Endings I could see working:

- Sam and Deanboth dead, seemingly happy in heaven (I wouldn't like this unless heaven had been substantially reformed, but it is a possibility)

- Sam and Dean in the thick of battle, facing impossible odds but continuing the fight.

- Normal, "we've got work to do" ending.

-  Sam and Dean, having defeated whatever the latest ultimate evil is, hitting the open road for a legit vacation. Not a permanent retirement, but with a sense that maybe they can relax a little bit and not go from one world-ending crisis to another from here on out.

- Dean dies heroically, Sam commits himself to continuing in his name.

-Dean gets out of the life, Sam dies or keeps hunting. This would be essentially a version of where Kripke ended things at S5, and would require some sort of build up in the form of a partner or child, but I think the show could do that relatively easily (surprise biological kid, orphaned kid picked up on a hunt, love interest introduced in the final season, whatever).

Endings I don't think would work:

- Dean dies or keeps hunting, Sam gets the apple pie life. 

-, Dean keeps hunting, Sam dies.

The reason for this is that I think either the brothers will meet the same fate, or their fates have to be somewhat ironic given where they started out. At the beginning of the show, Dean was depicted as the gung-ho hunter, while Sam was the reluctant one looking for a way out. So it isn't that dramatically satisfying if the show ends with them in more or less the same place. Dean, barring the early S6 detour, has always been a hunter, usually with Sam but sometimes without him, so an ending where he's hunting without Sam doesn't do anything for the character. Ditto for Sam settling down with a woman or child sans Dean. Whereas I think Dean finding a life without hunting, or Sam committing himself to it, would have real dramatic weight.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't see Dean hunting while Sam has an apple pie life, however... I could see Dean being Bobby/mentor to a young hunter or group of hunters (like Krissy & Co) if Sam died. 

[Res]

I can see Dean hunting while Sam has an apple pie life, easy. That's in both their natures. Is it character growth? Definitely not but they don't let these characters grow which is why these almost 40 year old men are still latched at the hip and willing to risk the world for each other.

Honestly Sam has never really committed consistently to the hunting life, unless it was revenge driven or doing it for someone else (John after his death, Kevin in S8), but it's never been his life, like it has Dean. Sam's able to ignore the signs and let others handle it. But, mainly it's up to the current plot, how much he cares about hunting at a given moment. I know he's recently recommitted himself to hunting but after so many turnabouts, it's just not something I count on with his character or can believe in it. 

As @companionenvy stated above, although the writers attempt character growth, it's shortlived and easily erased for the mandatory BM in the season finale that leads into next season's restart.

So I believe it will end with them both dead in Hell, going out like Butch and Sundance (or the Angel finale which was cool) or finally one dead and the other moving on to another lifestyle. I know Jensen has said that if Sam dies and Dean lives, he envisioned Dean selling the Impala and riding off into the sunset on a motorcycle. I picture him headed that way to seriously risky hunts until he's dead too. But that's just me.

ETA: I think the best would be them having a break, kind of like at the end of Charmed, where they can actually take a decent breather. Sam runs MoL research and training out of the bunker while Dean physically trains new hunters.

2nd best - Same as above but with AU Bobby doing research and Sam getting his apple pie life. However, this time he stays in touch and helps out on occasion.

I would really love if they both could settle down and have families for a while during calm times but I knew that's too cheesy for most viewers.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Res

[catrox14]

So, I've been thinking that maybe a unique ending for the show is for Dean and Sam to finally be arrested for all of the fraud they've committed and they both go to prison with some Nightshifter call backs. They could actually end up in a haunted prison a la Folsom Prison Blues.  That leaves it open for a First Blood style escape from prison SPN movie and then maybe we get the Butch and Sundance/Angel style ending where we don't really see them die on screen but it pretty well is assured they do.  Cas could go back to Heaven or he dies his final death helping them escape prison.

[FlickChick]

On 7/5/2018 at 11:22 AM, catrox14 said:

So, I've been thinking that maybe a unique ending for the show is for Dean and Sam to finally be arrested for all of the fraud they've committed and they both go to prison with some Nightshifter call backs. They could actually end up in a haunted prison a la Folsom Prison Blues.  That leaves it open for a First Blood style escape from prison SPN movie and then maybe we get the Butch and Sundance/Angel style ending where we don't really see them die on screen but it pretty well is assured they do.  Cas could go back to Heaven or he dies his final death helping them escape prison.

I really don't see a movie after they close up shop and dim the lights. My best guess is a Butch & Sundance ending in which, like the movie, we don't actually see them killed, but it is obvious, as you mentioned above, Catrox. Actually, I see Cas either trying to help heaven or going out in battle with them. I'll be shocked if we get a "vacation" scene. JMO

[catrox14]

I've been watching Legends of Tomorrow and I am convinced they have given SPN shoutouts.   I am going to SWAG that SPN and LoT will have a crossover. No spoilers on that just my spec.....

[tessathereaper]

On 10/30/2018 at 12:22 AM, catrox14 said:

I've been watching Legends of Tomorrow and I am convinced they have given SPN shoutouts.   I am going to SWAG that SPN and LoT will have a crossover. No spoilers on that just my spec.....

You know that's funny, I was thinking the same thing watching it.  I'm not sure what exactly made me think it but I wouldn't be surprised and it could be pretty cool if they did.

[Aeryn13]

They`ve been keeping Legends out of the anual crossover, though so I don`t think any other x-over plans are on the horizon. Besides, I will not see my beloved Beebo sullied at the hands of the SPN writers.

[FlickChick]

Let's bring this back to the first page and give people a chance to speculate and not read spoilers.

[Commando Cody]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Let's bring this back to the first page and give people a chance to speculate and not read spoilers.

Almost - a year to the day of the last post. 

[Commando Cody]

I have to say, at least they put The Darkness into different clothing. She doesn't have to wear that horrible, flimsy dress anymore.

Aside from that, We have The Darkness not being as dark as before and God going bad. I have this suspicion that The Darkness will be the new God and Chuck will be locked up like The Darkness.  

Although that red coat Chuck was wearing made me suspicious that he wasn't really Chuck.  I'm going with the writers are phoning it in and Chuck gets "Darknessed". 

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I have to say, at least they put The Darkness into different clothing. She doesn't have to wear that horrible, flimsy dress anymore.

Aside from that, We have The Darkness not being as dark as before and God going bad. I have this suspicion that The Darkness will be the new God and Chuck will be locked up like The Darkness.  

Although that red coat Chuck was wearing made me suspicious that he wasn't really Chuck.  I'm going with the writers are phoning it in and Chuck gets "Darknessed". 

And this time Sam will get to be the key and wear the Mark because he and Chuck are "connected"?  *gag*

[Commando Cody]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And this time Sam will get to be the key and wear the Mark because he and Chuck are "connected"?  *gag*

Right after I posted, I was thinking it would be Cas, but Sam often follows what Dean has previously done.  

[FlickChick]

19 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Right after I posted, I was thinking it would be Cas, but Sam often follows what Dean has previously done.  

I know, and it's sad that the writers feel that they have to give anything that Dean does to Sam, but not the other way around. It's almost as if they think - wait, we can't just let Dean do that, he's only the sidekick. Gag!!!!! 😞

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I know, and it's sad that the writers feel that they have to give anything that Dean does to Sam, but not the other way around.

I actually think that it does go the other way around as well. The dark power arc and possession arcs are good examples. I think the storylines are just recycled in general.

Even Dean's season 4 and season 5 chosen one whose role gets taken over by someone else at the last moment arc was arguably a rerun of Sam's season 1 and 2 storyline with Adam fulfilling the Jake role.

It's pretty much all been done before, just with different details and variations.

Edited November 1, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I actually think that it does go the other way around as well. The dark power arc and possession arcs are good examples. I think the storylines are just recycled in general.

Even Dean's season 4 and season 5 chosen one whose role gets taken over by someone else at the last moment arc was arguably a rerun of Sam's season 1 and 2 storyline with Adam fulfilling the Jake role.

It's pretty much all been done before, just with different details and variations.

IMO, the two scenarios can't be compared. We were told in S4 that Dean was the only one who could stop the apocalypse. That continued in S5 until the penultimate episode in which Death told Dean that only Sam could do it - a complete reversal of a two season "arc" for Dean. In S1 - 2, we were told that Sam was a person with special "psych" skills. After Jake killed Sam and Dean brought him back, his special skills remained and since then he has been forever linked to being Lucifer's one true vessel - for umpteen seasons. That was not taken away from him. No one came in and usurped him as the one and only special kid who could kill Lilith with his powers. The fact that in killing her, he played into the hands of the dick angels doesn't change the fact that he was not usurped like Dean was.

But yes, they do recycle many storylines because the writers lack imagination.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

In S1 - 2, we were told that Sam was a person with special "psych" skills. After Jake killed Sam and Dean brought him back, his special skills remained and since then he has been forever linked to being Lucifer's one true vessel - for umpteen seasons. That was not taken away from him. No one came in and usurped him as the one and only special kid who could kill Lilith with his powers. The fact that in killing her, he played into the hands of the dick angels doesn't change the fact that he was not usurped like Dean was.

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[Shannonsspirit]

On 10/30/2019 at 1:00 PM, FlickChick said:

Let's bring this back to the first page and give people a chance to speculate and not read spoilers.

Okay! I'm going to speculate.  I'm bored and disgusted with the meta...Writer/God writing boring stories to remind us blah blah blah

I can't get passed the peacefully sleeping Empty Entity, rudely awakened when Jack wakened Castiel. Apparently, he has been unable to get back to sleep. He is angry. Angry enough to storm Heaven to wrongfully claim a being that died with a soul and no grace. He then impersonated Duma, speaking with sarcasm, ridicule, contempt and vengeance. He accepted a cruel deal with father-like Castiel to save son-like Jack, essentially similar, though inverted, to the deal Chuck offered Dean to bring back Mary, in exchange for father-like Dean killing son-like Jack. Ultimately, Jack is sent to the Empty, where the Entity wanted him to be.

Sam and Dean, the leaders of Team Free Will avert cataclysmic events. They defy death, destroy obstacles, in short, save the world. The Enity just wants to go to sleep. But, he can't, what with Lucifer popping in and out and a seething anger keeping him awake. It's not about Castiel or Jack or Lucifer. It's about those Winchesters. If Castiel goes to the Empty, they will just find a way to get him out. Jack can always get him out. So, the vindictive, sarcastic, hostile Entity impersonates God after trapping him in the Empty. Who else but the Empty would be able to send Lilith to Earth? (Pretending for the moment that all established lore and canon hasn't been retconned.) God has no power there. Beleghor could have also been dead in the Empty and sent as an agent of the Empty. As, was the other demon sent to kill Ketch.

I have many ideas. I realize that Amara accepts Chuck as Chuck. Though I find her annoyance of him odd. She was with him for ages and ultimately longed to be with him. Yet, in a comparative  cosmic millisecond, now can't stand him. It could be she only senses a Supreme Being or that being equally powerful, the Empty could fool her.

I think these things, largely because the Enitity's mockery in Heaven was so similar to Chuck's mockery on Earth. His sarcastic contempt when greeting Castiel with, "your screwed," seemed out of character. As well as, all of his behavior. Being nice gets you what you want. Tipping your hand, repeatedly, does not. Why would Chuck reveal himself and expect compliance? Whereas, the Entity doesn't care how he is perceived, as long as they think he is God.

Anyway, I loathe the retcon of the creator of the moral soul and giver of free will to grow, into an evil boring writer meta stuff. The logical enemy with the real motive and opportunity is the Entity.

[gonzosgirrl]

@Shannonsspirit I had much the same kind of thought, only substituting Gabriel for The Empty. (I am not sure when we started calling it the Entity?). Granted, I don't think he'd have the power to bring back Lilith or any of the other 'dead' characters, but he would surely have the power to make Dean and Sam believe that's what was happening, almost indefinitely. See: Mystery Spot

My theory was that he was not really most sincerely dead in the AU and managed to slip back through the rift before it close. But he was pissed that they left him there for dead, and that they screwed up by creating the rift in the first place, he's teaching them a lesson.

I don't honestly believe they'd do that - it's a little too Bobby-is-in-the-shower, even for a hack like Dabb. If it had happened in the first few episodes, maybe... Now, I think we're getting exactly what it looks like, because there is no subtlety or nuance in any of his storytelling.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Okay! I'm going to speculate.  I'm bored and disgusted with the meta...Writer/God writing boring stories to remind us blah blah blah

I can't get passed the peacefully sleeping Empty Entity, rudely awakened when Jack wakened Castiel. Apparently, he has been unable to get back to sleep. He is angry. Angry enough to storm Heaven to wrongfully claim a being that died with a soul and no grace. He then impersonated Duma, speaking with sarcasm, ridicule, contempt and vengeance. He accepted a cruel deal with father-like Castiel to save son-like Jack, essentially similar, though inverted, to the deal Chuck offered Dean to bring back Mary, in exchange for father-like Dean killing son-like Jack. Ultimately, Jack is sent to the Empty, where the Entity wanted him to be.

Sam and Dean, the leaders of Team Free Will avert cataclysmic events. They defy death, destroy obstacles, in short, save the world. The Enity just wants to go to sleep. But, he can't, what with Lucifer popping in and out and a seething anger keeping him awake. It's not about Castiel or Jack or Lucifer. It's about those Winchesters. If Castiel goes to the Empty, they will just find a way to get him out. Jack can always get him out. So, the vindictive, sarcastic, hostile Entity impersonates God after trapping him in the Empty. Who else but the Empty would be able to send Lilith to Earth? (Pretending for the moment that all established lore and canon hasn't been retconned.) God has no power there. Beleghor could have also been dead in the Empty and sent as an agent of the Empty. As, was the other demon sent to kill Ketch.

I have many ideas. I realize that Amara accepts Chuck as Chuck. Though I find her annoyance of him odd. She was with him for ages and ultimately longed to be with him. Yet, in a comparative  cosmic millisecond, now can't stand him. It could be she only senses a Supreme Being or that being equally powerful, the Empty could fool her.

I think these things, largely because the Enitity's mockery in Heaven was so similar to Chuck's mockery on Earth. His sarcastic contempt when greeting Castiel with, "your screwed," seemed out of character. As well as, all of his behavior. Being nice gets you what you want. Tipping your hand, repeatedly, does not. Why would Chuck reveal himself and expect compliance? Whereas, the Entity doesn't care how he is perceived, as long as they think he is God.

Anyway, I loathe the retcon of the creator of the moral soul and giver of free will to grow, into an evil boring writer meta stuff. The logical enemy with the real motive and opportunity is the Entity.

It's possible. He never showed his face which has lead me to believe he is Chuck's twin and he apparently resurrected Cas so he has God-like powers.

What knocks this theory out of whack is that Amara would recognize Chuck by his aura since they occupy vessels. Of course there's lol!canon. And of course the Empty was upstairs with Billie dealing with dead Jack in his sparkly suit in a scene which implies he is going to be on TFW.

????

The Empty seemed a bit crazy but he also was interested in rules being followed. Cas awake was against the rules so Cas was resurrected to solve the problem. Jack was a nephilim therefore the Empty thought he belonged in the Empty. It did not appear that his agenda went beyond that. Therefore he would help to preserve the natural order much like Billie.

The thing that I worry about is that he would resurrect Lucifer to shut him up because he's awake too now.

Dean is the one thst epitomizes free will on this show not God. The Angel's are the closest to god and everyone of them is a mess and the ones that were closest to Chuck are the worst messes... and this is the case in alternate universes too. Their firsthand accounts of Chuck are dysfunctional at best... and Amara's is an actual horror genre. It's not a retcon.

[Shannonsspirit]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@Shannonsspirit I had much the same kind of thought, only substituting Gabriel for The Empty. (I am not sure when we started calling it the Entity?). Granted, I don't think he'd have the power to bring back Lilith or any of the other 'dead' characters, but he would surely have the power to make Dean and Sam believe that's what was happening, almost indefinitely. See: Mystery Spot

My theory was that he was not really most sincerely dead in the AU and managed to slip back through the rift before it close. But he was pissed that they left him there for dead, and that they screwed up by creating the rift in the first place, he's teaching them a lesson.

I don't honestly believe they'd do that - it's a little too Bobby-is-in-the-shower, even for a hack like Dabb. If it had happened in the first few episodes, maybe... Now, I think we're getting exactly what it looks like, because there is no subtlety or nuance in any of his storytelling.

Lol I love your Wizard of Oz, "really most sincerely dead." Yes. I agree that it probably is very straightforward uninspired story telling. Honestly, after Atomic Monsters, I figured, yep evil Chuck. I have wondered about Gabriel, not in this context, but if he is dead.

Amara is the struggle and in what form they recognize other beings. I do wonder about the faceless, formless Empty Entity( I don't know why I started using that term) that has been kept hidden, throughout; and I can't imagine him being concerned about the fate of the world, let alone Sam and Dean. He would probably be happy if the entirety would disappear, so he can go back to sleep. Billie, as well, unless there is more to this, has always carried a grudge about them. Though as Death, she gained a new perspective. Therefore, an alliance with them seems odd.

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It's possible. He never showed his face which has lead me to believe he is Chuck's twin and he apparently resurrected Cas so he has God-like powers.

What knocks this theory out of whack is that Amara would recognize Chuck by his aura since they occupy vessels. Of course there's lol!canon. And of course the Empty was upstairs with Billie dealing with dead Jack in his sparkly suit in a scene which implies he is going to be on TFW.

????

The Empty seemed a bit crazy but he also was interested in rules being followed. Cas awake was against the rules so Cas was resurrected to solve the problem. Jack was a nephilim therefore the Empty thought he belonged in the Empty. It did not appear that his agenda went beyond that. Therefore he would help to preserve the natural order much like Billie.

The thing that I worry about is that he would resurrect Lucifer to shut him up because he's awake too now.

Dean is the one thst epitomizes free will on this show not God. The Angel's are the closest to god and everyone of them is a mess and the ones that were closest to Chuck are the worst messes... and this is the case in alternate universes too. Their firsthand accounts of Chuck are dysfunctional at best... and Amara's is an actual horror genre. It's not a retcon.

Are the ????? in response to the mid-section of my post? If so, I was comparing the sarcastic behavior of Chuck when he greeted Castiel with the sarcasm of the Empty Entity when he went to Heaven to claim Jack. The Entity was snide, mocking with Castiel. 

Yes, Dean is the epitome of free will. I was referencing God as the giver or free will and the creator of souls, which are moral compasses. Psychopaths don't concern themselves with morality. So, evil Chuck doesn't seem compatible with one who would conceive of and create souls.

Yep. Amara is the most glaring loophole in my speculation.

[Shannonsspirit]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@Shannonsspirit I had much the same kind of thought, only substituting Gabriel for The Empty. (I am not sure when we started calling it the Entity?). Granted, I don't think he'd have the power to bring back Lilith or any of the other 'dead' characters, but he would surely have the power to make Dean and Sam believe that's what was happening, almost indefinitely. See: Mystery Spot

My theory was that he was not really most sincerely dead in the AU and managed to slip back through the rift before it close. But he was pissed that they left him there for dead, and that they screwed up by creating the rift in the first place, he's teaching them a lesson.

I don't honestly believe they'd do that - it's a little too Bobby-is-in-the-shower, even for a hack like Dabb. If it had happened in the first few episodes, maybe... Now, I think we're getting exactly what it looks like, because there is no subtlety or nuance in any of his storytelling.

I'm responding to you, again, because you really have me thinking about Gabriel. His prior insistence that Sam and Dean play their roles in the story. This season is heavily focused on "fan favorites." If Castiel annoyed the Empty  Entity, I can imagine profound annoyance with Gabriel. I suspect that the Entity has been awake since Jack awakened Castiel. Any new arrival may be awake, as well. That Gabriel has set up an illusion is perfect. Thank you for this idea!

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I'm responding to you, again, because you really have me thinking about Gabriel. His prior insistence that Sam and Dean play their roles in the story. This season is heavily focused on "fan favorites." If Castiel annoyed the Empty  Entity, I can imagine profound annoyance with Gabriel. I suspect that the Entity has been awake since Jack awakened Castiel. Any new arrival may be awake, as well. That Gabriel has set up an illusion is perfect. Thank you for this idea!

Cas was awake because Jack had the power to awaken him. It's possible that Lucifer is awake still because we saw him awakened by Nick's prayers because of the powerful connection of an arch angel's vessel to that archangel apparently transcended death. Neither situation applies to Gabriel. 

Of course Chuck resurrected Lilith however per s 11 resurrecting an archangel is supposedly extremely difficult or at least that is what he said at the time. Since Chuck lying has been demonstrated multiple times who knows.

I always thought Gabriel faked his death in s 5 however having him do it again under those circumstances seems ridiculous.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I always thought Gabriel faked his death in s 5 however having him do it again under those circumstances seems ridiculous.

More ridiculous than just about anything else that has happened since Dabb took over? Granted, the spec that Evol!Chuck is really Gabriel/Trickster is out there, but off the top of my head I can list 10 things that have already happened that are more ridiculous than Gabriel being not-dead.

Edited November 21, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

More ridiculous than just about anything else that has happened since Dabb took over? Granted, the spec that Evol!Chuck is really Gabriel/Trickster is out there, but off the top of my head I can list 10 things that have already happened that are more ridiculous than Gabriel being not-dead.

Why would Gabriel be evil? The Winchesters saved his life. He volunteered to go on the mission. He sacrificed himself to save them by fighting Lucifer. His light went out. They saw that. He was severely depleted of grace. Even if he managed an illusion he wouldn't expect them to know that and he could easily have escaped back undetected when Lucifer was distracted by Michael.

I have no trouble accepting Chuck as bad and selfish and petty and manipulative and lying. Signs have been there all along imo if one paid attention to characters' firsthand experiences with Chuck and how it left them. It was clearly signaled with season 11 and the horrible treatment of Amara, the way he ignored a dangerous situation and forced others to handle her and the way he used manipulation to get his way, and with s13 for that matter. There was a horrific Apocalypse in a world without Dean and Sam. Chuck didn't care at all about those people.

[ILoveReading]

Sorry wrong thread

Edited November 21, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Why would Gabriel be evil?

Because this is Dabbernatural? Because they seem to have an inexplicable boner for Speight? Dabb don't need reasons. And Gabriel has done twisted things just for kicks before. Don't forget, if it was him , none of this would be real. None of those people would really be dead. It's bad writing on a level that wouldn't surprise me with this crew, so why not? 

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because this is Dabbernatural? Because they seem to have an inexplicable boner for Speight? Dabb don't need reasons. And Gabriel has done twisted things just for kicks before. Don't forget, if it was him , none of this would be real. None of those people would really be dead. It's bad writing on a level that wouldn't surprise me with this crew, so why not? 

It's totally out of character imo. Gabriel had a rational behind his m.o.

Unfortunately I think this is the set-up. If it changes at mid-season... yikes.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

 

I still believe a Donna and Jody show, without the teenagers, would have been awesome.  

 

No spec, just wishful thinking:  How about an "old hunters" show, with Jody and Donna and Bobby and Rufus.  It'd have to be an AU, I guess to get them all together and alive (and probably not on the CW), but I'd sure as hell watch that one!  In fact, if we're resurrecting hunters, throw in Ellen, too!

 

 

[Commando Cody]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

In fact, if we're resurrecting hunters, throw in Ellen, too!

As long as there is no Jo, I'm in.  They can talk about what she's hunting off camera, like they do with Claire now. 

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

As long as there is no Jo, I'm in.  They can talk about what she's hunting off camera, like they do with Claire now. 

Notice I didn't mention Jo. 😁 

This can be the spinoff to appease the (now older) parts of fandom who've grown up with SPN and don't want beautiful young angsty teens.  

Edited March 19, 2020 by ahrtee