Speculation Only

[SueB]

I still wanted to read the Donnie Darko post... I was trying to figure out the context before I went into details... looking at the rest of the DD post now...

 

ETA: Okay, that's a fascinating story.  I don't think we are dealing with a temporal anomaly in Supernatural BUT I like some of the other aspects as it applies to "being believed" and stuff filtering thru dreams.  I think it would play as Bobby Ewing in the shower.  

 

It's really fascinating... in my copious spare time (not!) it's one I'd like to read.

Edited November 20, 2015 by SueB

[Mick Lady]

Did you have to bring up Bobby Ewing?! Really?

 

Between you and catrox, I'm talking to myself.

[trxr4kids]

Did you have to bring up Bobby Ewing?! Really?

 

Between you and catrox, I'm talking to myself.

It's okay Mick Lady, it was only a dream!

[Omegamom]

Now, see, I could see them pulling that rabbit out of their hats for the end of the season. :-(

It would explain some of the off-ness.

[catrox14]

Now, see, I could see them pulling that rabbit out of their hats for the end of the season. :-(

It would explain some of the off-ness.

 

At this point, I would be totally fine with it. Because it would answer...like ERRYTHING that's bugging me. Which I'm still working on that list LOL

Did you have to bring up Bobby Ewing?! Really?

 

Between you and catrox, I'm talking to myself.

 

I was never happier for a dream sequence EVER than I was for that. Seriously. It was stupid but brilliant and saved the show IMO. Can't have JR without Bobby really.  IMO .  Sidebar: I really liked the Dallas reboot and hated that the new showrunner jacked it all up by making it about the Ramos' instead of the Ewing!

[Mick Lady]

I was never happier for a dream sequence EVER than I was for that. Seriously. It was stupid but brilliant and saved the show IMO. Can't have JR without Bobby really.  IMO .  Sidebar: I really liked the Dallas reboot and hated that the new showrunner jacked it all up by making it about the Ramos' instead of the Ewing!

 

Off topic, But I agree! I loved Dallas!

 

My younger brother gave me a T-shirt he had made for me that said "I shot JR" I wore it to Six Flags that summer when JR was shot, and everyone in the park stopped me to comment on it!

 

They can't do this on Supernatural! They're too original for this!

[catrox14]

 

They can't do this on Supernatural! They're too original for this!

 

Considering so far in the show they've used dreamscapes in Dream a Little Dream; AU-esque with The End and It's a Terrible Life;  Time travel several times; Sam with Hellucinations; a trip to Heaven and back etc etc, I think very little is off the table for this show.

 

I don't want them erasing 10 years of history but I could see an AU/dream/spell being used to show the boys alternate paths to change what they've done in some way. To set right what they broke. It really all depends on the execution.

Edited November 22, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

I've asked before, What the hell does AU mean?!

[catrox14]

Alternate universe

[Mick Lady]

Lordy, I'm an idiot! Thanks catrox!

[FlickChick]

I've speced elsewhere on this site that for many years I've wondered about whether or not the boys have been in "The Supernatural Show" since the end of "Changing Channels". After their confrontation with the Trickster/Gabriel, the boys left the warehouse and Dean said that he wished that their lives were in a TV show, and Sam agreed since they were facing Armageddon. So maybe the Trickster granted them their wish. That would erase several years of screw-ups! :)

[SueB]

So I did a thing. 

 

Here's a summary:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  The events of S11mytharc are yet another test of Sam and Dean. But this time, he’s using them not to get the Angels in line but to get his own sister back.  Death played his role, but ultimately he’s counting on his Team Free Will creations to bring real balance to his universe.

http://snazzyo.tumblr.com/post/136762424610/ex-post-facto-supernatural-mytharc-theory

[catrox14]

I haven't read you piece yet, Sue but I have a question off the top.  Where does Dean being turned into a murdering murderer that murdered and into a demon fall within God's test or plan? That's kinda fucked up.

[Omegamom]

She puts that down as a test of Free Will, to see how far it will go, and whether mankind would destroy Creation. Then God decides that The Ultimate Test would be Amara, but keeps Death (being a splinter of Amara) as an ace in the hole. Go read it, it's well thought-out!

Um, and Dean kind of failed the Mark part of the test.

Am I getting it right, SueB?

Edited January 6, 2016 by Omegamom

[SueB]

Yes! Well done Omegamom. And thanks.

[catrox14]

 

ETA: Okay, that's a fascinating story.  I don't think we are dealing with a temporal anomaly in Supernatural BUT I like some of the other aspects as it applies to "being believed" and stuff filtering thru dreams.  I think it would play as Bobby Ewing in the shower.

 

I still wanted to read the Donnie Darko post... I was trying to figure out the context before I went into details... looking at the rest of the DD post now...

 

ETA: Okay, that's a fascinating story.  I don't think we are dealing with a temporal anomaly in Supernatural BUT I like some of the other aspects as it applies to "being believed" and stuff filtering thru dreams.  I think it would play as Bobby Ewing in the shower.  

 

It's really fascinating... in my copious spare time (not!) it's one I'd like to read.

 

 

Heh, Just reading back through the thread...and came across this.  Just curious SueB, Safe House do you still think we are not dealing with temporal anomalies?  I'm becoming even more convinced we are. 

[SueB]

Heh, Just reading back through the thread...and came across this.  Just curious SueB, Safe House do you still think we are not dealing with temporal anomalies?  I'm becoming even more convinced we are. 

 

Yes.  I'm fairly certain of it. And the clue, IMO, is the presence and then lack of presence of both "sad people" and the Soul Eater. 

 

Here's the sequence as we saw it relative to the sad people:

- Bobby taken, Dean taken

- Bobby sees the little boy, sees the sad people, sees the little boy run to his mom, and then the Soul Eater attacks him and Bobby is possessed

- Dean does the "sets the table sigil", sees the little girl, sees the sad people, and then is attacked by the Soul Eater and Dean is possessed

- Interspersed fight sequences ensue...

- Rufus finishes the trapping sigil and Bobby 'wakes up'.  And Bobby feels the house rumble. And there are no sad people around -- this it the KEY -- the sad people who were standing next to Bobby were already gone when Bobby came back....

- Sam finishes the sigil and Dean 'wakes up'. And the sad people are STILL THERE.  Note, there is also no house rumbling. Dean sees them disappear, but not Cat and her mom.

- Dean walks into the next room, with Cat & mom still in the other room, and the last of the sad people disappear.  And then Dean sees Bobby.  Bobby disappears FIRST. And then, and ONLY then, does Dean disappear and go back to his body.

 

So, to me, it seems that the oldest disappear first.  Sad people, then Bobby-era victims, then Bobby, then Dean-era victims, then Dean.  And the rumbling Bobby felt was the Soul Eater getting killed. 

 

Now look at the Soul Eater's presence: when Bobby woke up post-possession, the Soul Eater was not there.  Where did he go? And yet the soul eater was still around to take new victims after Rufus' sigil was broken. Why didn't the Soul Eater come right back to Bobby?  Even if the Soul Eater was trapped in the in-between world, he and his cud (the sad people) should have been around.  I think the Soul Eater was missing because he was already dead due to Sam's sigil in the Dean era. 

 

Bottom line: Because Bobby saw neither the sad people nor the Soul Eater when he was de-possessed, I think we were seeing Bobby AFTER the Soul Eater was dead. Which is when Dean was in the nest.  So Bobby and Dean were in the nest at the same time but BOTH were put back because of the kill sigil, not the trap sigil. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

So, you think we are dealing temporal anomalies now? Sorry I think I confused myself. LOL

[SueB]

No, I think the anomaly only existed IN the nest.  It's just that while in the nest in the "now" he was also in the nest in the "then".  But once the last person was out of the nest (Dean), then that little "pocket universe" as you like to call it, was empty.  Perhaps it collapsed when the last person left.  But only IN the nest was time and space the same.  Not in our universe. 

[DittyDotDot]

Now look at the Soul Eater's presence: when Bobby woke up post-possession, the Soul Eater was not there.  Where did he go? And yet the soul eater was still around to take new victims after Rufus' sigil was broken. Why didn't the Soul Eater come right back to Bobby?  Even if the Soul Eater was trapped in the in-between world, he and his cud (the sad people) should have been around.  I think the Soul Eater was missing because he was already dead due to Sam's sigil in the Dean era.  

 

I think when the Soul Eater was trapped by Rufus' sigil it also forced out all the souls (and the sad people) that were in the nest at that time. If they had viable bodies, the souls returned to those bodies, if not they were probably reaped and sent off to their afterlife. So, the Soul Eater was still around, but trapped in the nest, which is out of time. Bobby's soul was no longer in the nest, so the Soul Eater couldn't come back to him.

 

The Soul Eater is trapped there until the sigil gets broken. Then Sam and Dean come along and kill the thing which forced out the new souls that had been taken since the sigil was broken  and made the nest disappear.

 

But when Dean and Bobby were in the nest, all the souls (or Sad People) were there--anyone who had ever been trapped in the nest existed at the same time, IMO, in the nest--they just didn't see them right away for some reason. Perhaps it takes time to adjust to being out of time? I don't know, but one of the kids told one of the adults they would see the Sad People eventually too. And then later one of the kids said it was getting crowded in there and there were a whole bunch more Sad People. Which led me to believe, the Sad People were always there, just not always visible, until the Soul Eater was killed and the nest destroyed.

 

I'm not sure I'm making sense. I'll stop now.

Edited April 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

this seems to be an appropriate explanation:

[rue721]

I think when the Soul Eater was trapped by Rufus' sigil it also forced out all the souls (and the sad people) that were in the nest at that time. If they had viable bodies, the souls returned to those bodies, if not they were probably reaped and sent off to their afterlife.

 

But doesn't the Nest exist outside of space and time? So how come the souls couldn't just all go back to whatever space (or body) and time they came from? There isn't any "present day" in the Nest, I don't think?

[DittyDotDot]

But doesn't the Nest exist outside of space and time? So how come the souls couldn't just all go back to whatever space (or body) and time they came from? There isn't any "present day" in the Nest, I don't think?

 

The nest exists out of time, but our universe doesn't. If all the souls returned to their bodies at the time they came from, no one should've died since the souls would've been returned to the bodies at the moment they entered the nest. That's not what we saw. Some people died because their bodies deteriorated in our universe the longer the soul was being munched in the nest. 

 

So, IMO, the sigil Rufus and Bobby put up, not only trapped the Soul Eater, but drew out all the souls in the nest at the time the sigil was completed. Think of it as a homing beacon to the souls in the nest that drew them out of the "pocket universe" into a specific point in time in our universe. Some folks had viable bodies to return to and lived, some didn't.

 

Here's the kicker, though: Since there's no time inside the nest, those souls still existed inside the nest, as well--the Sad People--until the nest itself was destroyed when Sam and Dean killed the Soul Eater. 

 

Yeah, I don't know that's any clearer either. Sorry. I can't seem to find a way to articulate this, but I swear it makes sense inside my head!

 

 

 

ETA: BTW, I woke up with this song stuck in my head today:

 

 

It won't go away and I blame it all on you people! 

Edited April 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

What you are trying to say-I think- is that after the monster's death they all returned to their own times and those whose bodies had died went to Heaven or Hell.

[DittyDotDot]

No, I'm actually saying the opposite. If Sam and Dean killing the monster returned all the souls to their own time--the moment they were taken from our universe into the nest--they all would've had bodies to return to; never fallen into comas, never died and, consequently, no one would've known the monster even existed in our universe years later. It would've been a reset. That's not what we saw. 

 

I'm saying none of the souls returned to their time--the moment they entered the nest--but to the moment the sigil was created by Rufus/Bobby or the moment the monster was killed by Sam/Dean respectively. Basically, I'm saying Sam and Dean didn't effectively save the people in the past, only the people who had been taken since the sigil Rufus and Bobby put up was broken. All the other souls had been drawn out of the nest by Rufus and Bobby previously at the same moment in time in our universe. That's why some people lived and others died.

 

Killing the monster did destroy the nest and make sure this would never happen again with this particular monster, though.

 

But, even though the souls were pulled from the nest into a specific time in our universe, they still existed outside of time in the nest until the nest was destroyed. That's how Bobby and Dean were able to see one another while they were inside the nest.

Edited April 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Here's the kicker, though: Since there's no time inside the nest, those souls still existed inside the nest, as well--the Sad People--until the nest itself was destroyed when Sam and Dean killed the Soul Eater.

 

Oh OK, that makes sense. Well, maybe it doesn't make that much sense, but at least I can sort of understand it! :)

 

So every moment still exists in the nest, all at once, because time is meaningless there? So the moment that Bobby was in the nest still existed within it, even though he's out now?

 

If every moment exists at once there, how could anyone within the Nest change (and become a Sad Person), since change requires time (and a before/during/after)?

 

And I actually kind of love that song, but it's now only associated with Cookie Monster for me:

 

[DittyDotDot]

If every moment exists at once there, how could anyone within the Nest change (and become a Sad Person), since change requires time (and a before/during/after)?

 

I think that's the timey wimey part you just have to go with. Like I said, it took time for Dean and Bobby to see the Sad People, so maybe it's just human perception of being stuck out of time and not that people actually changed there? That's the best explanation I can come up with for that.

 

BTW, I love the Cookie Monster commercial!. I didn't mean to say I disliked the song, itself, but hate it when I get a particular song stuck in my head for a long period of time.

[AwesomO4000]

Hee I love the Cookie Monster commercial, too. Cookie was my favorite on Sesame Street.

[rue721]

Hee I love the Cookie Monster commercial, too. Cookie was my favorite on Sesame Street.

 

I love him, too. He's a black hole of need, but he's so CHEERFUL about it!

[Demented Daisy]

When I hear "Time in a Bottle", I think of:

 

[SueB]

ALL excellent uses of "Time in A Bottle".  Which is apparently what a nest is.

[rue721]

Wow, that scene makes me want to (finally) watch X Men, Demented Daisy! Although frankly, even if I had super-speed or the ability to slow time, I don't think that I would have the geometry skills to get all the cops to punch themselves out while making all their bullets miss my friends. That's a whole lot of tough angles to figure out all at once, and I can barely line up an OK pool shot.

 

Anyway, in all honesty, thanks for introducing that song, DDD. I think it's pretty helpful to conceptualizing how the nest was meant to work. "Pocket universe" makes the nest sound so much more complete and all-encompassing than it really seemed to be. "Time in a bottle" seems more fitting. Plus, good song. And apparently, it's having a ~moment~ in the zeitgeist, too?

[catrox14]

I just use pocket universe because there was an episode of Fringe which was all about pocket universes in a house and I kept thinking Robbie Thompson are you a Fringe fan???

 

That's just how I think of it. Time in a bottle works too! 

[SueB]

For those who didn't get it from the title. Here's where we speculate based only on what we've seen with NO SPOILERS included.  That means no interviews, promos, or other sources.  Just the previously aired episodes and our vivid imaginations.

I'm putting together my own "road so far" for the All-Seasons thread and this idea popped into my head that I wanted to throw out here:  What if the BMoL is the "Bloodlines" theme reworked.  As you probably recall, "Bloodlines" central conflict was 'Monster Gangs of Chicago" (It should have been on NBC and titled 'Chicago Supernatural').  

ANYWAY, we've been talking about the genocidal approach the BMoL have been taking towards monsters.  Now mix in the vague references to "the Old Men". And I've come up with an speculation:
- What if the Old Men are Shapeshifters and they already used the BMoL to rid England of all non-Shapeshifters and are now working on America via this recruitment drive.
- I'm saying "shapeshifters" because it fits with the bandy-about theory that the Old Men are really monsters themselves. They can assume human form and hide in plain sight. And, most importantly, we haven't seen them on the BMoL list yet.  They've killed vamps (a LOT), rugaru, siren, wraith, and ghoul.  We haven't heard of any other species BUT:
-- it's hard to hide werewolves eating habits for too longl; same goes for pishtacos, vetalas, skinwalker
-- ghosts make no sense
-- rawheads, wendigos, rakshaka, and a few others have a hard time 'passing'
-- certain fae are clearly "no way" while others are possible
-- Witches/Warlocks could be the "Old Men" but they seem more like "tools" than a species to protect

So, IF the Old Men were a particular species of monster (like Shapeshifters), then the entire BMoL plot is about taking out all other monster threats to them

Then again, we haven't had much monster-on-monster action so I could be way off.  

Anyway, something to chew on.  We know Dabb liked the concept even if it failed.  He could be doing a variation on the Bloodlines theme.  

Edited March 13, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Not really contributing anything of value to the conversation, but I swear I read this:

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

same goes for pishtacos

As pistachios.  And had to really think about that....

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

- ghosts make no sense

Knowing how ghosts are created, there is no way they could get rid of all of them.  There's a never ending supply!  And I don't know that ghosts would be much, if any threat, to a monster mafia clan anyway.  [Except there was that one ghost in the old house who was luring all the others and sucking ghost energy to power up and Bobby as a ghost helped get rid of him.]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

-- Witches/Warlocks could be the "Old Men" but they seem more like "tools" than a species to protect

Except there was Magnus - who was a witch/warlock in his own right, imo.  What if they are like him?  

[mertensia]

Are there any UK only monsters that the Old Men could be? I mean, one of them being the Loch Ness Monster would be hysterical. Unlikely but hysterical. So are there any others?

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

For those who didn't get it from the title. Here's where we speculate based only on what we've seen with NO SPOILERS included.  That means no interviews, promos, or other sources.  Just the previously aired episodes and our vivid imaginations.

I'm putting together my own "road so far" for the All-Seasons thread and this idea popped into my head that I wanted to throw out here:  What if the BMoL is the "Bloodlines" theme reworked.  As you probably recall, "Bloodlines" central conflict was 'Monster Gangs of Chicago" (It should have been on NBC and titled 'Chicago Supernatural').  

ANYWAY, we've been talking about the genocidal approach the BMoL have been taking towards monsters.  Now mix in the vague references to "the Old Men". And I've come up with an speculation:
- What if the Old Men are Shapeshifters and they already used the BMoL to rid England of all non-Shapeshifters and are now working on America via this recruitment drive.
- I'm saying "shapeshifters" because it fits with the bandy-about theory that the Old Men are really monsters themselves. They can assume human form and hide in plain sight. And, most importantly, we haven't seen them on the BMoL list yet.  They've killed vamps (a LOT), rugaru, siren, wraith, and ghoul.  We haven't heard of any other species BUT:
-- it's hard to hide werewolves eating habits for too longl; same goes for pishtacos, vetalas, skinwalker
-- ghosts make no sense
-- rawheads, wendigos, rakshaka, and a few others have a hard time 'passing'
-- certain fae are clearly "no way" while others are possible
-- Witches/Warlocks could be the "Old Men" but they seem more like "tools" than a species to protect

So, IF the Old Men were a particular species of monster (like Shapeshifters), then the entire BMoL plot is about taking out all other monster threats to them

Then again, we haven't had much monster-on-monster action so I could be way off.  

Anyway, something to chew on.  We know Dabb liked the concept even if it failed.  He could be doing a variation on the Bloodlines theme.  

At the beginning of the season I was really wondering if this would happen--the old men being monsters, that is. I still think it a possibility, but I also wonder if the UK is actually as safe as they think it is? I mean, it could be the Old Men are just idiots and thought they wiped out all monsters when in reality the monsters are running circles around the BMoL? It would make sense considering how incompetent they seem to be actually be despite all their tech and talk.

Either option makes sense, but since the MoL have always looked down on hunters, I wonder if they're trying to turn the tables a bit here?

13 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Are there any UK only monsters that the Old Men could be? I mean, one of them being the Loch Ness Monster would be hysterical. 

Oooh, that would be funny!

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Then again, we haven't had much monster-on-monster action so I could be way off.  

This season or in general? This season I agree, but in the past there were the leviathans who had an actual plan and specific tactics to get rid of other monsters. They were starting with the vampires, but I'm sure other monsters were going to follow (they might have even mentioned other types of monsters in their plans. I'm blanking on that.) The leviathans were even trying to negotiate it so that demons would be restricted to Canada - which of course Crowley wanted none of that type of negotiation... it's just that Dick was almost as good as Crowley was with the contract-speak, so Crowley had to work really hard to find himself a loophole.

I think that I mentioned the leviathan example somewhere on the board - maybe the spoilers thread? - and that some evil something might be following the leviathan lead via the BMoL to try to become the dominant monster species. So basically I'm saying that I agree with the possibility that you're suggesting.

And though others would hate it, I'm sure, I wouldn't even object to it being a leviathan retry. I mean they, too, had focused on the vampires first - and even in a way that "tainted" blood (although in their case it was the blood of the victims). Of course I think Dick Roman would be too vain perhaps to disguise himself as an "Old Man" but hey, I can dream can't I?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Of course I think Dick Roman would be too vain perhaps to disguise himself as an "Old Man" but hey, I can dream can't I?

Well, since we haven't actually seen the Old Men, we don't really know that they are physically old, do we?  I mean, Old Men could be metaphorical, in which case, the Leviathan theory could work, because they are Very Old creatures indeed.  :)  (Just trying to help!)

[catrox14]

I'm trying to figure out what possible reason Sam would have for giving up a recipe for Colt bullets to the BMOL and lying to Dean about working with them for two weeks. Dean might have a temper and get pissed but FFS, it's not like Dean is going to kill Sam for working with them. The worst he'll do is cut ties for a while.

I'm gonna throw out some wild ass spec out there that part of Lady FuckOffandDie's torture cocktail, left some residual stuff in Sam. Like we haven't heard Sam tell ANYONE that he was both physically and magically ruffied. It seems to me, if he told them, that's a scene we would have been shown. It's a big deal. What if part of that ruffie cocktail left him open to suggestion in some way. That it was just enough to stay in his system for a few months. Or the magic part of it, is still in him. That it's doing something to his judgment.  Because otherwise I just cannot fathom on any level why he would tell them how to make those bullets. 

LIke I don't care that the Alpha Vamp was attacking. He seemed amenable to let Sam and Mary go in exchange for Mick. IMO that's a fair trade.  Why would Sam trust the BMOL or any MOL really with something so fucking powerful. 

I DO NOT GET IT

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Plotonium... that's the only thing I could come up with.

And yeah, I don't know why Sam would give up the recipe to them either. I thought he should have insisted that he take the Colt back myself.

In addition, as I asked over in another thread, I don't know why Sam would even trust weapons that combined high tech and magic. To me that just seems like a recipe for potential disaster. It's one thing to mess up a one on one hunt, but if something goes wrong when potentially targeting a whole bunch of individuals or a weapon that covers a wider area, the potential for something going wrong gets much bigger.

And as I said, Crowley already discovered a way to hijack one of their weapons. What will be keeping other demons, witches, evil angels, etc. from figuring out how to do something similar?

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And yeah, I don't know why Sam would give up the recipe to them either.

I'm not sure there was a way around that one. Somebody had to make the bullets while Sam and Mary went for the AVD. And it was luck Sam did tell them because the AVD plan tanked anyway.

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought he should have insisted that he take the Colt back myself.

If I was Sam--which I'm clearly not--I totally would've insisted on this. It's not like they didn't earn it. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

I'm probably missing something--but when did they learn to make bullets for the Colt?  I'm assuming it was from Ruby, but I don't remember them talking about it.  I remember Bobby pulling the gun apart and then trying to shoot her with it, and she laughed at him; and later, when Sam was trying to get Dean to trust her:

SAM: No one's stringing me along! Look, I know it's dangerous, that she is dangerous, but like it or not, she's useful. 

DEAN: No! We kill her before she kills us.

SAM: Kill her with what? The gun she fixed for us?

DEAN: Whatever works.

SAM; Dean, if she wants us dead, all she has to do is stop saving our lives.

He didn't say anything about bullets, or even that she showed them how to fix the gun, just that she did the fixing.  I was under the impression that she gave them the bullets, too, just like in Abandon All Hope, when Crowley gave them the Colt and then tossed the pack of already-made bullets at them, saying, "oh, you'll need these."  And since they lost the Colt by the end of that episode...?  Did we ever hear about them making bullets for the Colt themselves?  

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm probably missing something--but when did they learn to make bullets for the Colt?  I'm assuming it was from Ruby, but I don't remember them talking about it.  I remember Bobby pulling the gun apart and then trying to shoot her with it, and she laughed at him; and later, when Sam was trying to get Dean to trust her:

SAM: No one's stringing me along! Look, I know it's dangerous, that she is dangerous, but like it or not, she's useful. 

DEAN: No! We kill her before she kills us.

SAM: Kill her with what? The gun she fixed for us?

DEAN: Whatever works.

SAM; Dean, if she wants us dead, all she has to do is stop saving our lives.

He didn't say anything about bullets, or even that she showed them how to fix the gun, just that she did the fixing.  I was under the impression that she gave them the bullets, too, just like in Abandon All Hope, when Crowley gave them the Colt and then tossed the pack of already-made bullets at them, saying, "oh, you'll need these."  And since they lost the Colt by the end of that episode...?  Did we ever hear about them making bullets for the Colt themselves?  

It does sound like Ruby fixed the Colt, but maybe Sam was speaking more figuratively? There may have been nothing actually wrong with the Colt, they just didn't have any bullets left after they killed Yellow Eyes with it, so Bobby took it apart hoping to find out how to make more bullets? 

Anyway, until Sam started spewing the "recipe" I didn't realize they knew how to make more bullets. I was under the impression they still had a limited supply of them. I guess I just figured Ruby provided new bullets, but never thought about her and Bobby making them. Which is funny because I always was curious what made the Colt tick, but I didn't actually want the show to explicitly tell me what it was. Sometimes leaving things up to the audience's imagination can be preferable. 

ETA: Thinking on this more, if they knew what made the Colt tick and knew how to make the bullets, why haven't they ever tried to recreate the Colt somehow? Seems like it would've been a smart plan of action. And now I'm back to the idea @rue721 put into my head of having Dean try and reverse manufacture some of the BMoL tech... .

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It does sound like Ruby fixed the Colt, but maybe Sam was speaking more figuratively? There may have been nothing actually wrong with the Colt, they just didn't have any bullets left after they killed Yellow Eyes with it, so Bobby took it apart hoping to find out how to make more bullets? 

Anyway, until Sam started spewing the "recipe" I didn't realize they knew how to make more bullets. I was under the impression they still had a limited supply of them. I guess I just figured Ruby provided new bullets, but never thought about her and Bobby making them. Which is funny because I always was curious what made the Colt tick, but I didn't actually want the show to explicitly tell me what it was. Sometimes leaving things up to the audience's imagination can be preferable. 

I remember Bobby having the gun in pieces, but said he couldn't figure out what made it work (which I assumed was because they needed more bullets.)  

And, since I checked the eps in the Wiki, they actually only had the working Colt for two episodes--Ruby fixed it in 3.4, Sin City and Bela stole it in 3,6, Red Sky at Morning* (and it wasn't used/needed at all in 3.5).  AFAIK, they only used two bullets--to shoot the two demons in Sin City.  So, assuming Ruby had given them at least a few bullets, they wouldn't have had the need (or the time?) to make new ones yet.  And then Crowley gave them more, before the gun disappeared *again.*

So, yeah, this was the first I heard that they knew the "recipe."  

ETA:  *Actually, I think it was  3.10, Dream a Little Dream of Me,  In any event, they didn't have it very long and/or shoot it enough (I think there were a few shots fired in Malleus Malificarum, but still not enough to need them to make more.)   

Edited March 17, 2017 by ahrtee

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

So, yeah, this was the first I heard that they knew the "recipe."  

And knew it right off the top of his head, too? I mean, they haven't seen the Colt in years... .

[catrox14]

It's a retcon. Sam apparently had it on his ipad or whatever. He told Mary he learned it from a buddy of his (Bobby is a buddy now?) And Mary said. "Bobby Singer?"

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It's a retcon. Sam apparently had it on his ipad or whatever. He told Mary he learned it from a buddy of his (Bobby is a buddy now?) And Mary said. "Bobby Singer?"

So Ruby told Bobby how to make the bullets?  And Sam still has it on his ipad *7 years* after they've last seen the gun?  And more importantly, the BMoL, with all their knowledge of spells and fancy equipment, *didn't* know how to make them, but just wanted the Colt for sentimental value?  Sheesh.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And Sam still has it on his ipad *7 years* after they've last seen the gun?  

Didn't Sam say something about uploading all the MoL files to 'the cloud' in Stuck In The Middle?  I guess it's possible he'd previously added that bit of knowledge to the archives and was able to access it over the net.  (Nice search feature they must have for the database though to find it that fast.)

If it was Ruby who gave the recipe to Bobby who then gave it to Dean and Sam, it makes sense to  me that the BMoL wouldn't have it - especially since they've eliminated all monsters from England you know.  (so there wouldn't be demons around with whom to consort and gain valuable information).  

[rue721]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

And now I'm back to the idea @rue721 put into my head of having Dean try and reverse manufacture some of the BMoL tech... .

Oh man, I would love this so much.

Imagine how he could tinker with and perfect them, too. I am imagining all kinds of demented inventions that he could start pulling out of Baby's trunk.