Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I'm saying that Cas would take issue with the "brainwash" aspect of it.  Other than that, I 'm not sure what you want Dean to tell him, because like you said, Cas is the one that told him about paradise.

I'm not sure that Cas would take issue with the "brainwash" part of it.  Dean could say to Cas that from his perspective, he thought Cas had been brainwashed when he stole the Colt and that Dean is worried that another thing like that could happen, so they should all stick together. Maybe they would argue about it and maybe the end result would be the same, but I'm saying from Dean's POV he has reason to remind Cas of what HE saw in Cas.

I'm saying I don't think Dean would have just accepted that Cas was going off again by himself so soon to potential danger. It was bad writing. Dean would have put up a bigger fuss and that should have been one of his reasons.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I liked the Lily Sunders episode though I would say overall it was guest star-centric. Cas played a role and had character development or at least backstory in it but the story focus was Lily`s

I saw Lily as the plot device to tell Cas' background. I pair this with Stuck in the Middle as Cas evolving to really seeing how much he had changed and wasn't like Ishim or who he was back then.

[ILoveReading]

My unpopular opinion is that I’m glad Ketch is back. I might be the only one but I like the character. 

Now give me a cat and mouse game between him and Dean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Any doubts who and what is important to this showrunner? (and I don't mean Castiel)

Ugh.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Any doubts who and what is important to this showrunner? (and I don't mean Castiel)

Ugh.

And there it is. Ugh, that is so gross. Like even if it turns out that Lucifer is playing g his own game the promo monkeys are spinning a goddamn Hero redemption arc for the Devil himself. REALLY? SHOW? REALLY?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that I’m glad Ketch is back. I might be the only one but I like the character. 

Now give me a cat and mouse game between him and Dean. 

Now that would be really fun!  Just as I loved it when Dean outsmarted Lady GoodChuckshe'dbetternotcomebackfromthedeadtoounlessit'ssoSamcankillher.  I'm down!

[catrox14]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that I’m glad Ketch is back. I might be the only one but I like the character. 

Now give me a cat and mouse game between him and Dean. 

Sadly, I don't think that is what they will do at this point. I they will be uneasy allies.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Sadly, I don't think that is what they will do at this point. I they will be uneasy allies.

I don't think we'll see Dean ever ally with Ketch - at least I hope not. Ketch is working for Asmodeus, and I hope they continue to have Dean see right through his lies. But yeah, we're talking about Dabb here, so who knows.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And there it is. Ugh, that is so gross. Like even if it turns out that Lucifer is playing g his own game the promo monkeys are spinning a goddamn Hero redemption arc for the Devil himself. REALLY? SHOW? REALLY?

Dabb has such a boner for Mark P, I'm not surprised at them trying to sell this redemption and make him a frenemy, a la Crowley. I could *possibly* have got on board with this if it happened immediately post S11, when he'd made peace with Chuck and thrown his lot in with them to stop Amara. Instead, they had him go full whiny, bored, murderous teenager, kill a bunch more humans, impregnate an unaware woman, kill Castiel and drag Mary into the AU. So yeah, no. No redemption. Screw you, Dabb.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb has such a boner for Mark P, I'm not surprised at them trying to sell this redemption and make him a frenemy, a la Crowley. I could *possibly* have got on board with this if it happened immediately post S11, when he'd made peace with Chuck and thrown his lot in with them to stop Amara. Instead, they had him go full whiny, bored, murderous teenager, kill a bunch more humans, impregnate an unaware woman, kill Castiel and drag Mary into the AU. So yeah, no. No redemption. Screw you, Dabb.

Totally agree about him having the boner for Mark P. And no matter who was playing Lucifer I will ALWAYS reject a redemption arc for the fucking Devil himself. I mean honestly from a writing standpoint why do it? It's not interesting to me. He's the supreme villain of all time in pretty much all literature and art and yet Dabb seems to think he should have redemption? I'll have respect for Dabb if hes' playing a long game with Lucifer except of course that will make our heroes look like complete dolts. But I hate this for Lucifer in show reasons and for the idea in general.

Who do you make a villain at that point? Michael? Turn a good guy bad? 

HATE IT SO MUCH.

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Totally agree about him having the boner for Mark P. And no matter who was playing Lucifer I will ALWAYS reject a redemption arc for the fucking Devil himself. I mean honestly from a writing standpoint why do it? It's not interesting to me. He's the supreme villain of all time in pretty much all literature and art and yet Dabb seems to think he should have redemption? I'll have respect for Dabb if hes' playing a long game with Lucifer except of course that will make our heroes look like complete dolts. But I hate this for Lucifer in show reasons and for the idea in general.

Who do you make a villain at that point? Michael? Turn a good guy bad? 

HATE IT SO MUCH.

I imagine at least part of Dabb's recent incarnation of Lucifer is about the success of Lucifer on Fox as a charming, misunderstood character.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I imagine at least part of Dabb's recent incarnation of Lucifer is about the success of Lucifer on Fox as a charming, misunderstood character.

Oh, yeah. That makes sense. But that is also why I dislike Lucifer on Fox LOL and bored of it quickly. Sorry Dabb but if I wanted to watch Lucifer on Fox I would LOL .

Ugh. Do Not Want.

[Katy M]

Well, I don't mind Lucifer being charming as long as he is also evil.  He charmed Eve into taking a bite of the fruit, after all.  But, I'm not into him being a poor misunderstood son who just wants his daddy to love him and is basically just a stunted 3 year old.

[Pondlass1]

Why can't we have truly evil characters on tv any more?  Why do they always have to be whitewashed and have issues?  

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm still waiting for Sam to find out all he had to do was let a little of Luci's grace out and voila - no need to jump into that pit after all.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm still waiting for Sam to find out all he had to do was let a little of Luci's grace out and voila - no need to jump into that pit after all.

Can you imagine? Like seriously. In a way he should have pinged on that when he learned about Cas' grace being removed and how that affected Cas and then it should have come up again when they thought about removing Jack's grace....but you know whatever show.

And if they redeem Lucifer what does that bode for Sam for jumping in the pit in the first place? Ugh.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think we'll see Dean ever ally with Ketch - at least I hope not. Ketch is working for Asmodeus, and I hope they continue to have Dean see right through his lies. But yeah, we're talking about Dabb here, so who knows.

I hope you're right but I just feel like that is what this show seems to do to both Dean and Sam these days. Make them uneasy allies with the people that tortured, attempted to kill and did kill the boys and their loved ones : Lucifer, Metatron, Crowley (although he was always on that line), BMOL. Ketch would fit right on that fence :(.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And no matter who was playing Lucifer I will ALWAYS reject a redemption arc for the fucking Devil himself. I mean honestly from a writing standpoint why do it? It's not interesting to me. He's the supreme villain of all time in pretty much all literature and art and yet Dabb seems to think he should have redemption? 

A lot of people think Satan is the protagonist in Paradise Lost. From a writing standpoint, Milton’s not too shabby. ;)

But the Supernatural writers aren’t Milton, so they probably should leave the redemption arc alone.

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

A lot of people think Satan is the protagonist in Paradise Lost. From a writing standpoint, Milton’s not too shabby. ;)

I've never read that so I don't know the story at all.

I stand by that this show should not redeem Lucifer because it makes Sam's sacrifice meaningless.

36 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

A lot of people think Satan is the protagonist in Paradise Lost. From a writing standpoint, Milton’s not too shabby. ;)

ETA: You can still have an evil character as the protagonist in a story.  I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: You can still have an evil character as the protagonist in a story.  I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here.

You're right that there's a difference between being a protagonist and being redeemed, but I think Jeddah's point was that showing Satan as a sympathetic character isn't new. Although I agree with both of you that this show's Lucifer doesn't deserve redemption.

Silly as it would be in other respects, I don't think Lucifer being redeemed, wholly or in part, would negate Sam's sacrifice, since at that moment, Luci was intending to destroy the world. Jumping into the pit wasn't a referendum on Lucifer's capacity for growth; it was a necessity given his immediate plans. 

[MysteryGuest]

Until they prove otherwise, I wouldn't trust Lucifer as far as I could throw him.  He's all buddy buddy now because he needs something, but as soon as the imminent threat is gone, he'll go back to his old ways.  Now whether Dabb will have Sam and Dean fall for Lucifer's bullshit is another thing altogether.  I hope not, but I don't really trust him either.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

You're right that there's a difference between being a protagonist and being redeemed, but I think Jeddah's point was that showing Satan as a sympathetic character isn't new. Although I agree with both of you that this show's Lucifer doesn't deserve redemption.

Silly as it would be in other respects, I don't think Lucifer being redeemed, wholly or in part, would negate Sam's sacrifice, since at that moment, Luci was intending to destroy the world. Jumping into the pit wasn't a referendum on Lucifer's capacity for growth; it was a necessity given his immediate plans. 

I think it's just too much for this show to have Lucifer get ANY kind of redemption. It's bad enough he got to be involved with trying to kill Amara on Team God and that Sam had to work with him. BOO! 

For me, Lucifer being redeemed by saving the world does negate Sam's sacrifice. Lucifer didn't do anything to earn the redemption. Unless he knew all along that by making a nephilim it would tear a rift between worlds but I'd be surprised. He literally fell into that situation and he's taking advantage of it. Luck. Nothing more, nothing less, (at this point). 

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Until they prove otherwise, I wouldn't trust Lucifer as far as I could throw him.  He's all buddy buddy now because he needs something, but as soon as the imminent threat is gone, he'll go back to his old ways.  Now whether Dabb will have Sam and Dean fall for Lucifer's bullshit is another thing altogether.  I hope not, but I don't really trust him either.

I hope you're right that it is a long con by Lucifer. But as it looks now, redemption is very much on the table. IMO

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

You're right that there's a difference between being a protagonist and being redeemed, but I think Jeddah's point was that showing Satan as a sympathetic character isn't new. Although I agree with both of you that this show's Lucifer doesn't deserve redemption.

Silly as it would be in other respects, I don't think Lucifer being redeemed, wholly or in part, would negate Sam's sacrifice, since at that moment, Luci was intending to destroy the world. Jumping into the pit wasn't a referendum on Lucifer's capacity for growth; it was a necessity given his immediate plans. 

It just seems like they are undoing so many (IMO) huge plot points that will affect my viewing if/when I rewatch. The biggies this season (so far): You can't count on things that were basic truths before, ie, humans  (not named Winchester) shot in the head, stay dead.* When they showed you burnt out wings, angels were dead. Don't get me started on the effects of being soulless (so Sam just chose to be a conscious-less, cold-blooded killer who threw his brother to the vampires in S6?). Lucifer can be powered down by removing a vial full of his grace. It's all just so very dismissive of canon and it makes me unwilling to invest in the story when they just change it on a whim.

 

*I don't mean coming back as ghosts, like Kevin or Bobby, who are still dead, or Rowena who was/is a 300 yr old witch.

Edited November 28, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[companionenvy]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It just seems like they are undoing so many (IMO) huge plot points that will affect my viewing if/when I rewatch. The biggies this season (so far): You can't count on things that were basic truths before, ie, humans  (not named Winchester) shot in the head, stay dead.* When they showed you burnt out wings, angels were dead. Don't get me started on the effects of being soulless (so Sam just chose to be a conscious-less, cold-blooded killer who threw his brother to the vampires in S6?). Lucifer can be powered down by removing a vial full of his grace. It's all just so very dismissive of canon and it makes me unwilling to invest in the story when they just change it on a whim.

This is a good list for this season. I'd add in from previous seasons the fact that everyone and his brother (pun intended) can now waltz into hell and even access the cage, whereas once, it took a garrison of angels to storm regular-hell and rescue Dean. And then, of course, there's Bobby's waiting room hell. And the fact that souls can get sent to the wrong place willy nilly. 

Basically, I hated Taxi Driver a lot. 

[shoetingstar]

3 hours ago, Jeddah said:

A lot of people think Satan is the protagonist in Paradise Lost. From a writing standpoint, Milton’s not too shabby. ;)

But the Supernatural writers aren’t Milton, so they probably should leave the redemption arc alone.

 

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb has such a boner for Mark P, I'm not surprised at them trying to sell this redemption and make him a frenemy, a la Crowley. I could *possibly* have got on board with this if it happened immediately post S11, when he'd made peace with Chuck and thrown his lot in with them to stop Amara. Instead, they had him go full whiny, bored, murderous teenager, kill a bunch more humans, impregnate an unaware woman, kill Castiel and drag Mary into the AU. So yeah, no. No redemption. Screw you, Dabb.

Ooh, this reminds me...Back in the 90s there was a movie called The Prophesy that starred Christopher Walken. It was about an Angel civil war, and one of the things that become clear is that the Dark/Evil Angels use humans to hurt God. They were bitter about his love for humans. I remember really enjoying it, but it's been awhile. I wonder if Kripke borrowed from it at all... Though God was a not absent in that universe....

Which leads to my source bitterness...I never liked how God was/is portrayed in the Supernatural verse - Deadbeat Dad - hiding - leaving all of creations fate to a couple of humans? I'm not even talking from a Christian standpoint, but as a supporter of the Winchester Brothers. That's just an incredible shitty thing to do to Dean and Sam after all the suffering they've endured. I almost rather have NO (traditional)"God" exist. How about a Goddess instead if we are going to veer from "Christianity" - or an "Alien" being? And then the Chuck/Amara reveal - while humorous on on one level just pisses me off the more I think about it. Though, I enjoyed that major Dean/Jensen's scene with him.

But I notice these Supernatural-type show runners seem to always have Daddy issues at the heart of everything. (I'm thinking Buffy, Angel, I'm sure there's more...)

[Bergamot]

On 11/27/2017 at 10:38 PM, ILoveReading said:

My unpopular opinion is that I’m glad Ketch is back. I might be the only one but I like the character. 

Now give me a cat and mouse game between him and Dean. 

You are not the only one, I like him too! Not in the "I think he's cute, I hope they redeem him" sense, but in the sense that I think he is an interesting character. I like that he is such a twisted sociopath, completely irredeemable, but that also in his own eyes he is convinced that he is "one of the good guys". He is the human version of what the show should have gone for with Lucifer (and in fact this is what we saw with Lucifer, way back in episodes like "Abandon All Hope", but the writers have ruined that character.)

Anyway, if the show had to bring back one of the BMOL, I would rather have it be Ketch. (Sorry, but I found Mick to be kind of annoying, and his redemption arc came across to me as stilted and forced.) I also thought it was interesting that Mary had an affair with Ketch, and quite revealing of the fact that there is something deeply wrong with her, considering how obvious it was what kind of person Ketch was. I mean, if she just wanted to hook up with someone, she could have chosen another hunter, or even Mick I guess. I'm not sure what the writers were going for there, but it seems clear that there was a middle path Mary could have chosen, between aiding and sleeping with an abnormal sociopath on the one hand, and staying home to bake cookies for Dean (or whatever that idiotic false dichotomy they tried to push was) on the other. This wasn't just about Mary wanting to kill monsters to make the world better for her sons; in spite of what the show might want to tell us, what they showed us in Mary as Ketch's partner was a character who was pretty twisted herself.

I don't like the way they brought back the character of Ketch -- the "anti-death spell in my leg" idea was lame when they used it with Rowena, and repeating it did not make it less stupid. Maybe the writers could have made his death more ambiguous, so that everyone believed he was dead, but there was no way to be certain. I would not wanted to miss out on that last fight between Dean and Ketch, though; after this last episode I went back to rewatch it, and it was pretty awesome, so bloody and fierce! (And when Ketch points a gun at Dean and is about to shoot, the look on Dean's face, so resigned yet still resolute -- oh, my heart!)

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

You are not the only one, I like him too! Not in the "I think he's cute, I hope they redeem him" sense, but in the sense that I think he is an interesting character. I like that he is such a twisted sociopath, completely irredeemable, but that also in his own eyes he is convinced that he is "one of the good guys". He is the human version of what the show should have gone for with Lucifer (and in fact this is what we saw with Lucifer, way back in episodes like "Abandon All Hope", but the writers have ruined that character.)

It's funny, for all the talk about how Lucifer or Asmodeus are poor replacements for Crowley--which I don't see, myself--Ketch seems a more Crowley-like to me. Not as the King of Hell, but as a unapologetic bad guy who sometimes the boys find themselves working with to get the job done. 

9 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I don't like the way they brought back the character of Ketch -- the "anti-death spell in my leg" idea was lame when they used it with Rowena, and repeating it did not make it less stupid. Maybe the writers could have made his death more ambiguous, so that everyone believed he was dead, but there was no way to be certain.

Yeah, I'm less annoyed that Ketch is alive than I am with how they made him undead. Way too easy and simple for my tastes. But, whatever... .

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's funny, for all the talk about how Lucifer or Asmodeus are poor replacements for Crowley--which I don't see, myself--Ketch seems a more Crowley-like to me. Not as the King of Hell, but as a unapologetic bad guy who sometimes the boys find themselves working with to get the job done. 

Seems like the writers are pulling more of their time honored BS AKA throwing everything against the wall in order to see what sticks with the fandom.

FWIW, they're  0 for 3 in my book-although ITA that Ketch is their best attempt to date; and I further agree with the thought of better Ketch than Mick. Much better, tbh.

Would love it if Mary never had to show up again, but I'm bracing for it in the second half. She has not been missed at all by this fan in the first half of the season. Not one iota.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Seems like the writers are pulling more of their time honored BS AKA throwing everything against the wall in order to see what sticks with the fandom.

FWIW, they're  0 for 3 in my book-although ITA that Ketch is their best attempt to date; and I further agree with the thought of better Ketch than Mick. Much better, tbh.

To be clear, I don't think that's what the show has been doing with any of these guys--there is no replacement for Crowley and I think the show knows that--but was commenting on the fandom reaction more than anything. 

[shoetingstar]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Seems like the writers are pulling more of their time honored BS AKA throwing everything against the wall in order to see what sticks with the fandom.

FWIW, they're  0 for 3 in my book-although ITA that Ketch is their best attempt to date; and I further agree with the thought of better Ketch than Mick. Much better, tbh.

Would love it if Mary never had to show up again, but I'm bracing for it in the second half. She has not been missed at all by this fan in the first half of the season. Not one iota.

I'm so at this table with you!! They ruined her character and squandered the potential her return could have generated. My enjoyment of Season 13 has increased significantly because her and Lucifer were AWOL for back-to-back episodes. I pray they both could go away permanently.

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, devlin123 said:

I am finding Dean absolutely riveting to watch. He is telling a complex psychological human story. I personally find his story much more interesting and engaging rather than any of the supernatural story lines or the special boys with their special powers. Thankfully JA is a subtle enough actor to portray the inner workings of his mind and in that scene with him pulling a gun on the girl, you can actually feel his desperation and panic. I also appreciate the fact that they don't shy away from showing Dean behaving like an asshole but if you have been following the this show in its entirety you know that its OOC for him and should be clear that he is in a terrible state. It is showing that he is very human! That said I don't really care if its going to make other viewers see him as an asshole coz I don't watch for them.

The last line of this has really resonated with me. I started thinking about this last night - how my reactions while watching compare to how I'm left feeling after a day of reading discussions, tweets, recaps, etc. More and more I'm realizing that at least part of the reason I enjoyed seasons 1 thru 10.5 so much is that I watched them without ever reading any of these things in an attempt to remain unspoiled unti I was caught up.  (Well, that and because Dabb wasn't showrunner, and we had some writers who cared about Dean.) That's no reflection on my fellow posters at all - I enjoy and learn from the different viewpoints, but it does tend to colour perspectives and opinions and I think I need to take a break from it, maybe a re-watch over the holidays to rediscover what I love(d) about the show, and hopefully a new attitude on its return, to just take it for what it is and enjoy the Ackting.

[Aeryn13]

I see it as iffy. Like, I have no problem with some darkness for a character that is well set up or writing where I know someone will be incensed (because someone always is) but mostly people would be okay with it. What I do take issue with is writing where the writer goes out of their way to make a scenario look bad to basically everyone, for shits and giggles or being tone deaf. Then it`s no wonder the reactions are what they are and the scorn lands on the poor character when the writer is the asshole.

Like for example, my favourite episode is Lazarus Rising and there is this scene where newly-returned-from-hell-Dean calls out a demon on her threats as bluffing. This demon is in a female vessel and Dean slaps her face to further call her bluff. I knew there would be some outrage to "man hitting poor woman" but I wasn`t offended by the scene in the slightest since hey, demon. I would find it sexist if demons or angels in female vessels would receive no physical violence whereas the male ones do.

But pulling guns on frightened civilians with not remotely enough writing of a breakdown to back that up? Yup, that is. at best, tone deaf. I did not think for a second that Dean would actually shoot her. But equally, I did not believe for a second that he was suddenly in so much emotional turmoil about Mary that he lost it then and there. Maybe that happened in 15 deleted scenes of the episode which sold that progression but the version I saw sold me on nothing.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I see it as iffy. Like, I have no problem with some darkness for a character that is well set up or writing where I know someone will be incensed (because someone always is) but mostly people would be okay with it. What I do take issue with is writing where the writer goes out of their way to make a scenario look bad to basically everyone, for shits and giggles or being tone deaf. Then it`s no wonder the reactions are what they are and the scorn lands on the poor character when the writer is the asshole.

Like for example, my favourite episode is Lazarus Rising and there is this scene where newly-returned-from-hell-Dean calls out a demon on her threats as bluffing. This demon is in a female vessel and Dean slaps her face to further call her bluff. I knew there would be some outrage to "man hitting poor woman" but I wasn`t offended by the scene in the slightest since hey, demon. I would find it sexist if demons or angels in female vessels would receive no physical violence whereas the male ones do.

But pulling guns on frightened civilians with not remotely enough writing of a breakdown to back that up? Yup, that is. at best, tone deaf. I did not think for a second that Dean would actually shoot her. But equally, I did not believe for a second that he was suddenly in so much emotional turmoil about Mary that he lost it then and there. Maybe that happened in 15 deleted scenes of the episode which sold that progression but the version I saw sold me on nothing.

I don't mind controversial stuff.  That's what makes the Dean character interesting.  Another example is when Dean hit Meg, and we saw that it wasn't' just a demon but a person.  That ep did a good job of building Dean's desperation.  Another good example if taking on the Mark.  It was a dumb move but I could care less because i was interested where it would take Dean.

It was also believable set up that Dean would take it on with no thought to consequences.

The writing failed miserably here.   It seemed a ploy to gain more sympathy for Kaia.  Beren's comments that Dean was just bluffing didn't help either because it killed any hope that it might mean more.

If they had kept up Dean's depression these last 3 episodes, and continued to show an escalation of his drinking or nightmares or not sleeping, and that with hell flashback last week, I could buy what happened, but that's not want they showed, or even told. 

[strongercoffee]

This thread is such a  godsend! Chucksend?! (I couldn't resist. I'm so sorry.) I have so many opinions I know or at least suspect are unpopular and no other place to share them without fear of attack :)

My very favorite seasons are 3 and 7. I've tried and failed to explain this even to myself. They're just the seasons that engage and connect with me the most and have the most rewatchable episodes to me.

I really like Bela a lot and have grown to appreciate Ruby.

I even love the Becky wedding episode from S7, bringing the total number of SPN fans who love that episode to a grand total of...one?! 

I love Sam, Dean and Castiel. It seems like most of fandom loves only one or two of those three, but although I relate to Sam the most, I really do love them all.

I agree with a couple of others who said they can see objectively why S4 and 5 are considered among the highest quality seasons but yet don't really enjoy watching them. They're too grim and angsty for me, even by this show's standards.  

I know the show has gone on too long and I know it has a lot of flaws, but I'm an SPN addict. As long as it's still on, I'll still be watching the new episodes---though with lower expectations---and keep rewatching older favorites in between. 

The gag reels alone make this whole series worth owning on DVD for me. Maybe I'm too easily amused? :)

I liked Bobby, but to me he'd have been best used as a character who popped up a few times per season. I didn't enjoy him as much in larger doses and wasn't nearly as upset as I should have been when they killed him off.

I'm also glad that John didn't live longer. I swear that I'm not as callous a person as some of these opinions make me sound!

I tried so hard to care about Lisa , but I saw more of a connection between Dean and some women who didn't even live to see the end of one episode than I did between Dean and Lisa.

Despite how bleak it can be, there is still something so darn hopeful and inspiring about this show to me.

[Katy M]

@strongercoffee  If it makes you feel better I really like seasons 3 and (most of) 7, but they're not my favorites.  And, I don't think the show would have worked as well if John hadn't died, so I'll agree with you there.  I have stronger Ruby love than you appear to, and I agree that Dean and Lisa didn't really seem to have much going on.  I don't have a problem with Lisa, I just didn't see any grand love or passion there. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, strongercoffee said:

I even love the Becky wedding episode from S7, bringing the total number of SPN fans who love that episode to a grand total of...one?! 

Oh, there's at least two of out there. Although, I wouldn't say love, but definitely like it. 

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't have a problem with Lisa, I just didn't see any grand love or passion there. 

Nor did I, but then again, I always thought that was kinda the point. I think Dean cared about Lisa--and Ben--but it just wasn't his life and, IMO, he loved the idea of Lisa and Ben more than the reality of them. 

[bozodegama]

Ya know, I’ve been watching this show from the beginning and I’m a total fan of almost everything they do.  I loved seasons 4 and 5. I actually think season 5 is the greatest tv season of any show ever.  I’m a huge Dean fan, love when they play Deans theme music for the family feels.  I got to say my only issue with the show is that they’ve stopped using Dean’s hysterical use of pop culture speech.  It seems to have really slowed down the last year or so.  To me, that was one part of what made Dean so great, the way he spoke.  They also seem to have slowed down the use of the funny meta episodes.  They were all great.  I’m a little leery of the scooby doo episode but we’ll see.  The last thing is they stopped doing a lot of the inside jokes. Like always going or talking about Biggersons diner or having Death be annoyed with Dean but Dean trying so hard to be respectful.  It used to be hilarious laugh out funny for me.  Lately it’s been good but they need to get back to funny sometimes.  I’m sure they will.  The show has never really let me down.  Last thing is that I really wish they would bring back Rufus more.  Loved him

[Casseiopeia]

On 12/8/2017 at 1:54 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I knew there would be some outrage to "man hitting poor woman"

Really?  Were fans/Critics outraged by that scene?  That thought never occurred to me.  It seemed so organic to the episode and it wasn't like he hadn't hit female demons before....Meg, Ruby, etc..

[DeeDee79]

53 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Really?  Were fans/Critics outraged by that scene?  That thought never occurred to me.  It seemed so organic to the episode and it wasn't like he hadn't hit female demons before....Meg, Ruby, etc..

True enough but Meg & Ruby always hit back just as hard. I'm thinking that it was probably the visual of him slapping a woman's face with her not fighting back that was uncomfortable to watch. For the record I do agree that it was fitting with the scene; considering that she was a demon she got off light with 2 Winchesters in the room.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Really?  Were fans/Critics outraged by that scene?  That thought never occurred to me.  It seemed so organic to the episode and it wasn't like he hadn't hit female demons before....Meg, Ruby, etc..

It was organic and it still bothered viewers from things I've read. I mean it didn't bother me. I think some viewers thought it was  "gendered violence" because Dean slapped her with an open hand vs punching her and that he slapped her twice.

2 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I’m a huge Dean fan, love when they play Deans theme music for the family feels.  I

I still CAN NOT believe that during 12.22 when Dean was in Mary's head that they didn't use Dean's Family theme. That is unbelievable to me. And it's one of the big reasons why I think that scene was never about Dean. I mean how could they NOT have used it?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 12/15/2017 at 0:16 PM, strongercoffee said:

I really like Bela a lot and have grown to appreciate Ruby.

I still don't appreciate Ruby, butI really like Bela a lot also.  I think that makes all...two of us?  :)

[auntvi]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I still CAN NOT believe that during 12.22 when Dean was in Mary's head that they didn't use Dean's Family theme. That is unbelievable to me.

A long time ago I referred to the music as "Dean's theme" and was told, no, no, it's the "Winchester theme." ??

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I still don't appreciate Ruby, but I really like Bela a lot also.  I think that makes all...two of us?  :)

Also like Bela a lot - she was a worthy opponent, yet still dimensional enough to be interesting. I like badass & manipulative Ruby & Meg (2.0) both.  In fact, I don't think I've appreciated any of the villains as much since S. 7 Dick.

Edited December 20, 2017 by auntvi
punctuation

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, auntvi said:

A long time ago I referred to the music as "Dean's theme" and was told, no, no, it's the "Winchester theme." ??

It's been played at various points for other characters but it was written and titled as Dean's Theme or Dean's Family Theme by Jay Gruska and I think was included as the "Americana" suite and then broken out specifically as a motif for Dean in Devil's Trap.

Dean's Dirty Organ has been shown to be the Brothers Guitar theme but Dean's Theme or Dean's Family Theme is not listed or referred to as the Winchester Family motif. Not in it's titling, anyway.

I, for one, become actively offended when I hear it used without connection to Dean thus it's complete absence in 12.22 was mystifying to me. I want to know what the particular theme they used was  titled as I heard it being used a lot with Jack but maybe it's really Sam's theme. I don't know. 

Even the sheet music jpegs I see on line have it titled as Dean's Theme or Dean's Family Dedication Theme by Jay Gruska. 

There is an analysis someone did for it's use in the show. Make of it what you will, but for me it's Dean's Theme and used to highlight Dean and his relationship to his family not about the Winchesters in general.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Music_(Original_Score)

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Jay_Gruska

[DittyDotDot]

21 hours ago, auntvi said:

A long time ago I referred to the music as "Dean's theme" and was told, no, no, it's the "Winchester theme." ??

It's actually titled  Dean's Family Dedication Theme. While not used exclusively for Dean, they used to use it a lot when Dean was all emotional. I suspect it got it's name because it's first use was in Devil's Trap when Dean was talking about the things he's willing to do for family. They don't bust it out all that much these days, it seems. But, then again, they don't bust out many old themes these days.

Edited December 21, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It's actually titled  Dean's Family Dedication Theme. While not used exclusively for Dean, they used to use it a lot when Dean was all emotional. I suspect it got it's name because it's first use was in Devil's Trap when Dean was talking about the things he's willing to do for family. They don't bust it out all that much these days, it seems. But, then again, they don't bust out many old themes these days.

Man, I really miss the way in which the music was played prior to Dabb's showrunning. The music is too loud, unoriginal and sounds like it belongs in a teen movie. Even background sounds (Baby's motor, rushing water, etc.) are louder than they use to be. When I watch the older episodes, I enjoy the quiet moments and that makes the music more powerful when it is used such as the theme above. That's my bitter opinion!

[MysteryGuest]

Been watching some early episodes the last few days, and have come to the conclusion that I really didn't care for the Ruby character, regardless of the actress, but I loved both versions of Meg.  

[bozodegama]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Been watching some early episodes the last few days, and have come to the conclusion that I really didn't care for the Ruby character, regardless of the actress, but I loved both versions of Meg.  

Yeah i've been watching some earlier seasons too and I agree with you about Meg.  Both actresses were great expecially Rachel Miner imo.  Watching the old seasons you can really see how they've dialed back the humor this season.  I don't really understand it.  Both of the big bads are humorless, Asmodeus and au Michael.  We need Crowley back.  He was hysterical.

[Pondlass1]

25 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Both of the big bads are humorless, Asmodeus and au Michael.  We need Crowley back.

Totally agree with this ^.  We don't need paint by numbers bad guys twirling away at those mustaches.  They can still be complex and bad.

I liked both Megs too, but Rachel wins if there's a contest.  I loved when she showed up at the end with long blond hair.  A lot of shit happened but when Dean comes across her his first words are... "What's with the hair?"   I thought that was So Dean!

[catrox14]

IMO the show is giving all the "funny" stuff to Lucifer now and it annoys the crap out of me.

The more broad slapstick comedy is with Dean and Sam, as the straight man to Dean's slapstick. Castiel's charming  awkwardness is obviously being pushed on to Jack, which show, please let Jack  become his own person and let Castiel have a sense of humor again.

Asmodeus has no charm. Michael I thought had a couple of moments of kind of funny with his shock at Kevin and yelling 'What was that?" when Lucifer got through the portal.

Right now I think AU Michael has the most potential to be a good big bad with some ironic humor.

[MysteryGuest]

As with decent storytelling, quality humor also requires a talented writer.  It seems that what we get now is just the broad, slapstick stuff, and a little of that goes a long way.  I miss all of the totally organic sarcastic comments and little asides we used to get.  It didn't take you out of the scene, and didn't make your hero look like an idiot, it was just funny.  And it was a big part of Dean's character.  Now he's more of a class clown than a smart ass, and I prefer the smart ass.