Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Aeryn13]

I like the actor, both here and on Arrow. Between both shows, he displays a good range. And I also felt bad for the character at various points, just found the writing to be overdoing the innocent baby angle. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I really enjoy Jack and I appreciated him finding the case and being excited about it. Though the traffic cam stuff seemed a bit too far for him to know all that already. 

[Diane]

I like Jack and the actor is doing a good job with the character. 

[Commando Cody]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think the appeal is the actor.  Not only is he better than the writing.. He bears a strong resemblance to a 'young' Castiel which would appeal to those fans. 

When they showed Jack, right after he was born, I thought it was Misha Collins. 

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I like the actor, both here and on Arrow. Between both shows, he displays a good range. And I also felt bad for the character at various points, just found the writing to be overdoing the innocent baby angle. 

He was on Arrow? I do not remember him. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

When they showed Jack, right after he was born, I thought it was Misha Collins. 

He was on Arrow? I do not remember him. 

I thought the same thing and said so in the episode thread and everybody said I was crazy LOL.

He played Lonnie Macklin aka Anarchy. He wore a partial mask most of the time.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

When they showed Jack, right after he was born, I thought it was Misha Collins. 

head canon Alert: Since Jack can control the rate he ages at he can also choose what he looks like and he chose a body that could pass as Cas’ son instead of Lucifer!Jeff

[Res]

9 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I love Jack.

I think he's a moody teenager right now, but I like the character. 

I don't like the new, temporary, demon runner. He's not Crowley. He'll never be Crowley. And by Crowley, I mean a character that people actually like to see (in limited doses for most). I just want this guy permanently gone. 

I only agree with the demon runner because I really did like Crowley as well as Mark S. I loved the snarkiness, intelligence and cunning that the character had for most of his run, prior to Dabb.

As far as Jack, I'm completely ambivalent, tending to more just want him gone along with Lucifer into their very own spin-off verse so I don't have to waste time on them anymore. The actor is okay but the moody teen thing I completely hate as I deal with them way too much as part of my job. Nothing is ever their fault either.

[Bergamot]

I didn't like Kelly as a character pretty much from the beginning, but I am especially disliking what the show is doing with her this season. I would gladly have forgotten about her and moved on, considering that she is now dead, but the show insists on bringing her up over and over and over again, dropping anvils on my head as to how perfect and saintly and wonderful she was.

The latest was Cas going all gooey-eyed in this last episode while talking with Jack about how amazingly brave she was. I could be wrong, but I am guessing he was talking about her being willing to die so that Jack could be born and do whatever it is he is going to do. There is an underlying assumption here that I hate seeing the show put forth in such an unquestioned and absolute way: that there is nothing more courageous and noble that a woman can do than to sacrifice herself to serve as an incubator for a supernatural baby.

It reminds me of that episode where Kelly is stopped from killing herself in order to prevent Jack's birth, by Jack exerting his powers on her from her womb. I mean, I didn't want Kelly have to do what she tried to do, but it was her body and her life, wasn't it? Afterwards, Kelly assumes that Jack not allowing her to die must be proof of his goodness, and is in denial as to the obvious possibility that Jack's motivation might have been to save himself. So basically the narrative was that Kelly, who was raped by Lucifer, was not going to be allowed to decide whether she would have this baby, even though it would cost her life. And then when (after being manipulated by Jack's powers,) Kelly ultimately decides that no one must be allowed to interfere with Jack or his birth, and the birth kills her, she is canonized by the show and becomes Saint Kelly, the perfect woman.

Ugh, I really hate this. As I said, I would rather not think or talk about Kelly at all, but the show's writers keep insisting on bringing her up. I wish they would just stop.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, it is...unfortunate implications, to say the least. I hated the idea that giving birth to a nephil automatically led to the mother's death in the first place, and the idea that there's something noble about choosing certain death over terminating a pregnancy is disturbing. I don't understand why the show didn't simply suggest that carrying a nephil was dangerous to the mother, which would have  left them free to kill Kelly without having her make an actively suicidal choice and framing it is virtue. 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Yeah, it is...unfortunate implications, to say the least. I hated the idea that giving birth to a nephil automatically led to the mother's death in the first place, and the idea that there's something noble about choosing certain death over terminating a pregnancy is disturbing. I don't understand why the show didn't simply suggest that carrying a nephil was dangerous to the mother, which would have  left them free to kill Kelly without having her make an actively suicidal choice and framing it is virtue. 

If I were pregnant with a human child and my death was virtually assured, I would still choose to give life to my child.  

[catrox14]

There IS a horror story with Kelly but they haven't treated it as such.

It would have been hard to watch but they should have had the principals of Dean, Sam and Cas acknowledge that Lucifer is a monster who raped Kelly and essentially forced her to remain alive to give birth to her rapist's Spawn and die. Not have it be a joke if "She didn't know her boyfriend was Lucifer". Which I really wonder if that is what the were intending but then they moved to 8PM and the standards changed for what they can get away with doing.

They could have drawn a clear line between good and evil, and that Lucifer is the full on enemy who will need to die. Yes that makes Kelly a pawn but she was anyway so why not use it to show Lucifer has being the literal Devil who did a vile and disgusting thing to Two people so he could pretend to be better than Chuck and must be stopped lest he go around raping more people to get more Spawns.

They could have had Kelly seek an abortion but it fails because Lucifer or Spawn disallow it, just like her suicide attempt. They could have had her be terrified the entire time and go to TFW for help and they try to remove the grace but that fails and then Kelly has to meet a horrific death no matter what, or miraculously she lives because Jack wanted her to live. then she dies anyway because reasons.

Instead they weasel out by Kelly claiming she just Knows Spawn is good so now they can canonize  Kelly into Madonna Sainthood and that dying to give birth is a noble  no matter that she was raped and shouldn't had to give birth to her rapist's Spawn. At this point I see no reason for them to eve have Jack go dark side now that Kelly's rape, forced pregnancy and delivery are being framed as noble vs the horror story it actually was.

And why does it exist other than for Lucifer? Or to bring in hot young actor who might be good or evil? Does Dabb think he's actually doing Star Wars here with Jack and Lucifer or something.

It's a total disaster of a SL if anyone bothers to remember how it started and I think canonizing of Saint Kelly is the writers attempt to make the audience forget all about its messy, gross origins that could have been a decent horror story if they treated it that way.

[Katy M]

The only reason I'm not interested in the nature versus nurture debate of Jack is that I don't think that this is what this particular show is about.

However, I'm less bothered by Kelly's choices. Perhaps, because although I would make an exception in both spawn of Lucifer, and death of the mother, I am pro-life.  So, I can understand Kelly wanting to give her child a chance at life.  But, I agree that it could have been more compelling without some message from the womb saying that he's good.

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The only reason I'm not interested in the nature versus nurture debate of Jack is that I don't think that this is what this particular show is about.

However, I'm less bothered by Kelly's choices. Perhaps, because although I would make an exception in both spawn of Lucifer, and death of the mother, I am pro-life.  So, I can understand Kelly wanting to give her child a chance at life.  But, I agree that it could have been more compelling without some message from the womb saying that he's good.

The problem with that argument is that they *did* give Kelly the option of removing Jack's grace and having him born as a "normal" human, and she refused--not because it would endanger him, but because it would remove that part that made him "special".  That seems to me like...if a doctor comes to a mother and says her unborn child has a genetic defect that has a 50-50 chance of killing him but they can fix it in the womb, and the mother refuses because she doesn't want to change him.  I don't see that as her being particularly noble, but more likely brainwashing by the fetus, because it wanted to be born/keep its power, just like it stopped her from committing suicide.  That would make me *very* wary of the child and his motives from the very beginning. 

The only reason *not* to take them up on even trying to remove the grace was because then there would be no more story.  

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The only reason I'm not interested in the nature versus nurture debate of Jack is that I don't think that this is what this particular show is about.

However, I'm less bothered by Kelly's choices. Perhaps, because although I would make an exception in both spawn of Lucifer, and death of the mother, I am pro-life.  So, I can understand Kelly wanting to give her child a chance at life.  But, I agree that it could have been more compelling without some message from the womb saying that he's good.

I'll never understand Kelly's choices and whether she really was making her own choices at all.

She didn't have the choice to decline sex with Satan, so she didn't know she was pregnant with Satan's spawn. She was given the evidence of the Bible set aflame upon her touching it, and saw POTUS' eyes flare red when he tried to strangle her, she knew it was the Devil but she ran from Castiel and said "I LOVE my baby".

She had the choice to let TFW remove his grace but NOPE, he wouldn't be him without his grace, so where was the nobility when she was willing to risk the universe because she just KNOWS he's good.

I think her trying to kill herself to prevent Spawn's birth was noble but that's about it. And that choice was taken away from her too. But that's been reframed as "I wasn't supposed to die so that means he must be good!". 

I mean is it really brave of Kelly when she couldn't NOT give birth? Or was the bravery simply that she didn't go mad and just decided to make nice videos and paint the room? 

[companionenvy]

44 minutes ago, Katy M said:

However, I'm less bothered by Kelly's choices. Perhaps, because although I would make an exception in both spawn of Lucifer, and death of the mother, I am pro-life.  So, I can understand Kelly wanting to give her child a chance at life

The real-world parallel is precisely what makes me uncomfortable with the plotline (and I'm only moderately pro-choice myself). I'm not saying that there are no women who would choose to die for the sake of an unborn child conceived by rape, or even that there wouldn't be something admirable about that sacrifice.  But I don't love the idea of the show framing it as this act of great nobility. If the narrative they want to push is "Kelly isn't in control, and is compelled to give birth" then fine. Instead, the show seems to accept it as an unqualified good that Kelly is on board with sacrificing herself, and presents this as a choice that should be largely considered to have been freely made.

The show also stacks the deck by giving Kelly a notable lack of any connections. We never hear of any family, or friends - people who care for her, and who will miss her. She basically exists to be the vessel by which Jack enters the world, and no one really cares about her except in that capacity. Once Cas believes in Jack, IIRC, he's on board with Kelly's "I need to die" plan as well; he may be fond of her, but there's never any question that she should die to bring this child into the world, once the child himself is assumed to be a potential good. 

It is probably true that Kelly couldn't have terminated the pregnancy even if she had wanted to, but again, the show doesn't really frame it that way. Instead, she is Kelly the Saint who willingly died for her child -- which is a decision a woman has a right to make, but isn't one that needs to be celebrated, IMO.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The show also stacks the deck by giving Kelly a notable lack of any connections. We never hear of any family, or friends - people who care for her, and who will miss her. She basically exists to be the vessel by which Jack enters the world, and no one really cares about her except in that capacity. Once Cas believes in Jack, IIRC, he's on board with Kelly's "I need to die" plan as well; he may be fond of her, but there's never any question that she should die to bring this child into the world, once the child himself is assumed to be a potential good. 

It is probably true that Kelly couldn't have terminated the pregna

Which is really awful considering that Cas was ready to take her to Heaven so they could stop everything.

Maybe it's Lucifer's nature that manipulates everyone into thinking that his child being born is good for the world.  It's really no different than Lucifer getting Nick or Vince to be his vessel. He presented things as being good for them to do it, because it will bring them peace or love or whatever. The concept of Paradise was what Cas saw because Lucifer wanted to make sure Spawn was born and if Cas and Kelly don't believe in his goodness, then he can't be born.
 

[DittyDotDot]

TBH, I don't think it would matter which way the show went. If Kelly had decided to terminate the pregnancy everyone would be saying the show is supporting abortion. Personally, I think Kelly made an informed choice--she knew the risks to both herself and her child and chose to continue on with the pregnancy. Which is what pro-choice is all about. It doesn't mean one must get an abortion, but that women should have the right to choose and, IMO, Kelly did.

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She had the choice to let TFW remove his grace but NOPE, he wouldn't be him without his grace, so where was the nobility when she was willing to risk the universe because she just KNOWS he's good.

Well, tht's where it falls apart for me, too, which is why I said it would be more compelling without the messages from the womb.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't think it would matter which way the show went. If Kelly had decided to terminate the pregnancy everyone would be saying the show is supporting abortion. Personally, I think Kelly made an informed choice--she knew the risks to both herself and her child and chose to continue on with the pregnancy. Which is what pro-choice is all about. It doesn't mean one must get an abortion, but that women should have the right to choose and, IMO, Kelly did.

There is little to no evidence that Kelly made the  choice for herself though because she was supernaturally forced to remain alive when she wanted to die and stop the birth of Satan's Spawn who was also going to kill her during childbirth and she was healed of her wounds. The writers made the choice to have her decide it was a sign that he was good and she should give birth.

IMO, it's hard to read any of this as anything but give birth no matter what, that the spawn of satan matters more than the life of the mother which maybe was not their original intent or maybe it was, but it's probably more like 'OH SHIT we screwed up by introducing this terrible SL and by not making it a real horror story, so HEY we'll fix it by making everyone else say that she was a noble, brave woman who sacrificed for her half human, half Lucifer spawn'.

It's kind of even worse, when she was supposedly a devout religious woman who was sleeping out of wedlock with the POTUS.  I mean she's not the Virgin Mary here show. LOL

Like to me if she had sought the abortion first and it failed because supernatural reasons then I can by the it really is pro-choice friendly. Then maybe at that point she takes that as a sign from God, which BTW she's never actually said, just that she believes Jack is good, which is the trick of Lucifer, making people think they are doing the right thing when it's totally the wrong thing.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think Kelly made an informed choice--she knew the risks to both herself and her child and chose to continue on with the pregnancy. Which is what pro-choice is all about. It doesn't mean one must get an abortion, but that women should have the right to choose and, IMO, Kelly did.

I don't see her as having any choice whatsoever other than to try and make lemonade out of lemons, that is-which is pretty much what she did, IMO. She wasn't going to be allowed to terminate the pregnancy so that choice was taken from her. The only other semi-real choice she had was to try and allow the spawn's grace to be removed, which she nixed-and we don't even know that THAT was her choice or if Lucifer or the spawn was influencing her thought processes even in that. Same with Cas, tbh.

So basically, Kelly is being heralded as a saint because she went happily to her grave knowing that the Devil's spawn was going to be born with his powers intact because of a vision she had while she was carrying said spawn.

So the only way she stays a saint is if Jack saves the world-not sure the security guard's family would feel the same way, at this point in the story, if they knew the truth of how their loved one had died, but omelets and eggs, dontchaknow.

And how much more predictable does Kelly being hailed as a saint make this storyline seem, even at this point. 

The only surprise that I can see coming out of this storyline now, would be for Jack to turn out to be truly evil in the end and for TFW to have to try and find a way to end him for good and if he doesn't come back from going darkside at all.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Myrelle

[MysteryGuest]

I don't have too much of an issue with them referring to Kelly as someone good, at least for Jack's sake.  She was basically a good person.  But in reality, the entire "Lucifer as President" storyline was just stupid, IMO.  Kelly was a fairly high-profile person in the President's inner circle, so certainly her sudden disappearance would have raised some questions.  

I get that the show wanted the Spawn of Lucifer as a storyline, but there really were any number of ways they could have gone that would have made much more sense.  But I don't think they have the patience for that.  I think they just want to cut to the chase, and don't concern themselves too much with the plausibility of what they're writing.  I know that the show is Supernatural, but things should still make at least some sense.

[Aeryn13]

I think they are totally overdoing it on "noble saint Kelly" right now. I`m not saying she was a bad person but certainly rather naive and a whatever-ish character. Basically canonizing her now strikes me the same as this OTT pimping of Mary as the biggest badass of them all. I can`t think of a single example where it was beneficial to sell a character that hard.   

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think they are totally overdoing it on "noble saint Kelly" right now. I`m not saying she was a bad person but certainly rather naive and a whatever-ish character. Basically canonizing her now strikes me the same as this OTT pimping of Mary as the biggest badass of them all. I can`t think of a single example where it was beneficial to sell a character that hard.   

Honestly, all I remember is Sam and possibly Cas saying she was a good person.  And, of course, Jack is going to have positive feelings about his mom whether he actually knew her or not.  I haven't really seen them trying to sell her as a "saint."  Or even a really good person.  Just a good person, which I guess is arguable.

[MysteryGuest]

My guess is that Kelly's character will fade from memory pretty quickly.  Jack is basically a baby now, but that won't last.  They're going to move on to the Lucifer portion of our story, and Kelly will be forgotten.

[Bergamot]

12 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Yeah, it is...unfortunate implications, to say the least. I hated the idea that giving birth to a nephil automatically led to the mother's death in the first place, and the idea that there's something noble about choosing certain death over terminating a pregnancy is disturbing. I don't understand why the show didn't simply suggest that carrying a nephil was dangerous to the mother, which would have  left them free to kill Kelly without having her make an actively suicidal choice and framing it is virtue. 

I really don't know if the writers of the show intended to make a statement about abortion or anything else with the way they wrote Kelly. I kind of doubt that any of the thoughts discussed here even occurred to them.  But that was my point, that they stepped in a sensitive, serious subject and handled it in a thoughtless, ham-fisted way (and then exacerbated the problem with all their explicit anvils of Kelly as the "perfect mother".) And it's not the first time something like this has happened with the writers on the show.

Personally I would be very happy if Kelly's character faded from memory on the show. It certainly hasn't happened so far this season, but we'll see.

[Commando Cody]

It seemed like Jack had more power and insight as a fetus than he does as a teenage boy. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Bitter and probably unpopular opinion: Having Cas go off on his own again because he wants to fix his mistake (this time failing on his promise to protect the Spawn) is both repetitive and ridiculous. Having him essentially say 'yes' to Lucifer all over again is doubling down on the stupid, even if it was agreeing to work with him this time as opposed to actual possession. Does he really never learn anything? He already knew Lucifer was weakened from his grace extraction, so why did he let him snatch the phone away and then keep it? It's so contrived and dumb it actually makes me more angry than bitter.

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bitter and probably unpopular opinion: Having Cas go off on his own again because he wants to fix his mistake (this time failing on his promise to protect the Spawn) is both repetitive and ridiculous. Having him essentially say 'yes' to Lucifer all over again is doubling down on the stupid, even if it was agreeing to work with him this time as opposed to actual possession. Does he really never learn anything? He already knew Lucifer was weakened from his grace extraction, so why did he let him snatch the phone away and then keep it? It's so contrived and dumb it actually makes me more angry than bitter.

Because Dabb considers Castiel to be a complete and utter moron and utterly useless. As he has repeatedly shown through his portrayal of Cas and of course had multiple characters speak of how he’s just “the sidekick” and doesn’t do anything. 

 

Welcome to the Dabb portrays Cas horribly club -hands cookie- 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bitter and probably unpopular opinion: Having Cas go off on his own again because he wants to fix his mistake (this time failing on his promise to protect the Spawn) is both repetitive and ridiculous. Having him essentially say 'yes' to Lucifer all over again is doubling down on the stupid, even if it was agreeing to work with him this time as opposed to actual possession. Does he really never learn anything? He already knew Lucifer was weakened from his grace extraction, so why did he let him snatch the phone away and then keep it? It's so contrived and dumb it actually makes me more angry than bitter.

I don't get it either. And the other thing. Why didn't Dean sit down with Cas and be like, you know, Jack brainwashed you and lead you to think Paradise was coming? Was that just erased for Dean because Jack brought Cas back? It's all very weird.

Why didn't Dean insist on going with Cas. I mean the angels already KNOW who Dean is so that was a bad argument. But then Lucifer can't have saved Cas if Dean was there because Dean would have theorectically have killed Lucifer on sight.

[ILoveReading]

Why can Jack spend episode after episode hunting and hanging around the bunker and hunt with them but Cas is barely allowed to hang out with them for an episode?

My unpopular opinion is that this is only making me dislike Jack more.  Because I want more Team Free Will.

[Pondlass1]

I don't care about the Cas character.  But I can appreciate why his fans are frustrated.  For many seasons now he's often being sent off  on his own only to screw up or lie.  Remember that fantastic entrance?  How majestic and powerful he was?  

Now they have to remind him not to do anything stupid  (then he goes and does something stupid

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get it either. And the other thing. Why didn't Dean sit down with Cas and be like, you know, Jack brainwashed you and lead you to think Paradise was coming? Was that just erased for Dean because Jack brought Cas back? It's all very weird.

Why didn't Dean insist on going with Cas. I mean the angels already KNOW who Dean is so that was a bad argument. But then Lucifer can't have saved Cas if Dean was there because Dean would have theorectically have killed Lucifer on sight.

I don't know, but I'm guessing this is supposed to be Dabb's version of growth? Dean seems to be all about letting others do their thing these days, regardless of how bad an idea he thinks it is. It *is* growth, but sadly just gets his 'controlling/bossy' label replaced with the 'uncaring' label. Oy.

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't care about the Cas character.  But I can appreciate why his fans are frustrated.  For many seasons now he's often being sent off  on his own only to screw up or lie.  Remember that fantastic entrance?  How majestic and powerful he was?  

Now they have to remind him not to do anything stupid  (then he goes and does something stupid

I am neither a Cas lover nor hater, it's just the dumb, lazy writing that makes me bitter. I would almost rather they'd brought him back not knowing anything but his original raison d'etre: being a warrior angel of the Lord, than once again being this well-meaning-but-woe-begotten schmuck who just can't stop screwing up.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Now they have to remind him not to do anything stupid  (then he goes and does something stupid

I know this is my Destiel leanings talking but I feel like that's almost Dean's way of saying "Dude, don't get yourself killed, please. I do care about you".  And I also, totally see how others see it in a more mocking way.

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

Well, I'm light years from Destiel, but have to admit they're both pretty and of course there's that chemistry.

But I don't see it as 'mocking'.  It's horrible writing.  They've had him outright lie and put lives in danger.  Angels fell and were driving tractors and everything - meanwhile Cas cannot operate the slushy machine.

Just as they've gone over the top with this clumsy gluttonous Dean character we don't recognize, they've totally dumbed down Cas to the point he's both dumb and dumber. 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know, but I'm guessing this is supposed to be Dabb's version of growth? Dean seems to be all about letting others do their thing these days, regardless of how bad an idea he thinks it is. It *is* growth, but sadly just gets his 'controlling/bossy' label replaced with the 'uncaring' label. Oy.

Seriously. He can't win either way.

I can also see the case for those that think it's all done to make Dean look right when he has to save Cas (and Sam when it happens to him). I think it's also to appease some of the Brothers Only crowd who want them away from others and this does that for a few episodes.

Of course, if Dabb is writing a Lucifer redemption arc then he has to start with Dean having a turnaound on Lucifer and that may start with him saving Cas as those who save Dean's family, get at least some modicum of grudging appreciation and good will even if temporarily. However,  I really hope that doesn't apply to Lucifer with Dean not falling for any of his shenanigans and he'll still want to kill Lucifer given he's essentially "killed" Mary, he killed Cas and tormented Sam. We'll see what happens. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

But I don't see it as 'mocking'.  It's horrible writing.  They've had him outright lie and put lives in danger.  Angels fell and were driving tractors and everything - meanwhile Cas cannot operate the slushy machine.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you necessarily saw it that way but I can see how it can be read that way in a general way.

[Wayward Son]

39 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't care about the Cas character.  But I can appreciate why his fans are frustrated.  For many seasons now he's often being sent off  on his own only to screw up or lie.  Remember that fantastic entrance?  How majestic and powerful he was?  

Now they have to remind him not to do anything stupid  (then he goes and does something stupid

Honestly. I've become convinced there are very few people who are legitimately fans of Castiel as an individual. I'm increasingly getting the impression that most only see him as one half of a ship (Destiel) and as long as they get the occasional cute Dean scene to squee over they really don't care how stupid and pointless he is made to look outside of those scenes. A lot of the big name Cas fans I remember from earlier seasons have stopped watching and it increasingly feels like only those who care about him within the context of Destiel remain. 

 

On a related note, I'm increasingly finding myself becoming resentful of Dean and Cas scenes. These days they seem to exist solely to make Cas look even worse when he does the dumb and stupid things the writers decide he needs to do. Take The Future for instance. Dean opens up to Cas and they have what appears to be a good scene. Then ten minutes later in the episode it turns out Cas was actually only using Dean to steal the colt and he knocks them out. The scene feels like a cheap manipulation to make Cas look worse in a "aw poor Dean! He cares so much about Cas and Cas goes and steals from him / lies / insert whatever Cas does here". This isn't an anti-Dean sentiment. I think Dean is shown to mean what he says in these scenes. This is just frustration on how the scenes IMO are used for emotional manipulation and to make Cas look even worse. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

if Dabb is writing a Lucifer redemption arc

Oh bloody hell!  I hope not!  MP 's talents are being wasted just much as MS.  But I don't think he'll leave as he seems quite enamoured with his character and the snow according to tweets. 

I'm thinking it will come to a head and Jack will have to choose who to save (ie. not kill) - Daddy or the Winchesters.  And he'll gank daddy,  I think that will be the showdown.  

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly. I've become convinced there are very few people who are legitimately fans of Castiel as an individual. I'm increasingly getting the impression that most only see him as one half of a ship (Destiel) and as long as they get the occasional cute Dean scene to squee over they really don't care how stupid and pointless he is made to look outside of those scenes. 

Since I think I'm the only "out" Destiel shipper here, I hope you don't mean that towards me. LOL Welcome to the world of being half of a ship. I think that about Castiel and bibro fans who claim to be Dean fans. I think many only see Dean as in relationship to Castiel and Sam. I am a Destiel shipper but I fully see them as individuals.

All the supporting characters are there to tell the Winchesters story, and Castiel has had as much if not more character development than even Bobby. He was introduced as the one who raised Dean from Perdition because God commanded it. But he chose to rebel for Dean/humanity. I dunno for me that's a pretty big thing for a supporting character. 

He had the angel war (for better or worse it was there). He's been human. He's been killed and resurrected multiple times. We got backstory on Castiel in s12. I mean he's been attached to Dean because that is what God commanded, but he stayed with them because that was his choice. Chosen family. I guess maybe that gets forgotten by some but it's not been forgotten by ME, the lone Destiel shipper here LOL.

I'm holding out hope that Castiel will have a wonderful new redemption arc come out of this mess. At this point they HAVE to do that for him. I just can't see them not doing it.

Edited November 27, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get it either. And the other thing. Why didn't Dean sit down with Cas and be like, you know, Jack brainwashed you and lead you to think Paradise was coming? Was that just erased for Dean because Jack brought Cas back? It's all very weird.

I don't think Dean telling Cas would have achieve anything except for possibly pitting Cas against Dean, because he wouldn't have believed him.

[SueB]

@Wayward Son *raises hand*

I ADORE Cas.  I love everything about him. His good heart, his constant willingness to try, his flat-out adoration of all the Winchesters, his goofy love of emoticons, his humility, his humanity, that he still wears the tie cause Clair said it looks better, his pimp mobile, his unabashed sincerity in handling everything, the way Misha peeks through with children (making Cas that much more awesome), his willingness to forgive, and he’s the bravest being on the show IMO.  Like Chuck, I wanted to stand by him as he told Dean in S4 ‘I’ll hold them off, I’ll hold them all off.’ And he tried to do the same just last year while spitting out black goo.  When you look up ‘loyalty’ in the dictionary, there’s a picture of Cas’ face.  I’m not just being effusive, I believe everything I just wrote  and could go on and on.  Yes, he makes mistakes. His sense of honor is his strength and weakness.  But since the overreach of S6, he has never let his ego get in the way.  He’s been tricked but he’s shown to be very clever as well. 

ITA that what happens to Cas often feels very clunky. They bring him back just to send him off.  They revive him but he’s always got a power limitation.  These things could, IMO be handled much better.  But they don’t.  

But if you are looking for a Cas fan, see me.  I legit love the guy.  

Edited November 27, 2017 by SueB
Typo

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I don't think Dean telling Cas would have achieve anything except for possibly pitting Cas against Dean, because he wouldn't have believed him.

Why would Cas have to believe Dean when Cas is the one that told Dean about the Paradise thing?

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since I think I'm the only "out" Destiel shipper here, I hope you don't mean that towards me. LOL Welcome to the world of being half of a ship. I think that about Castiel and bibro fans who claim to be Dean fans. I think many only see Dean as in relationship to Castiel and Sam. I am a Destiel shipper but I fully see them as individuals.

All the supporting characters are there to tell the Winchesters story, and Castiel has had as much if not more character development than even Bobby. He was introduced as the one who raised Dean from Perdition because God commanded it. But he chose to rebel for Dean/humanity. I dunno for me that's a pretty big thing for a supporting character.  He's been resurrected by God 3 times and Jack once.

He had the angel war (for better or worse it was there). He's been human. He's been killed and resurrected multiple times. We got backstory on Castiel in s12. I mean he's been attached to Dean because that is what God commanded, but he stayed with them because that was his choice. Chosen family. I guess maybe that gets forgotten by some but it's not been forgotten by ME, the lone Destiel shipper here LOL.

I'm holding out hope that Castiel will have a wonderful new redemption arc come out of this mess. At this point they HAVE to do that for him. I just can't see them not doing it.

It was a commentary on fandom in general rather than just users on here or specific individuals. 

And most of what you described (rescuing Dean from hell, falling as a result of his decision to rebel for humanity, leading the angel war, being human etc are all things that predate Dabb's tenure as show runner. I am pretty pleased with how the character was used under Kripke and Carver, less fond of his use during the Gamble tenure and outright loathe the Dabb era Castiel. As I said I know of several Cas fans who have left fandom / watching the show over the past few years due to the characters treatment under Dabb. He doesn't get to do anything anymore except act as the perpetual screw up in order to drive the narrative forward and/or to get him off our screens for a while. The only positive Cas related things I see these days are Destiel related things like "aww, he said I love you to Dean/ the Winchesters" or "Aw, Dean made Cas a mix tap". There's never any real comments about how much of a bad ass Cas is or how wonderful he is in his own right. The Castiel who could kick ass and actually learn from his mistake died when Carver died and all we have left now is the perpetual screw up. As I've said before last season was the first time I actually found myself thinking "just write him out already. A decent send off beats what they're doing now" and s13 thus far has done little to change that.

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

@Wayward Son *raises hand*

I ADORE Cas.  I love everything about him. His good heart, his constant willingness to try, his flat-out adoration of all the Winchesters, his goofy love of emoticons, his humility, his humanity, that he still wears the tie cause Clair said it looks better, his pimp mobile, his unabashed sincerity in handling everything, the way Misha peeks through with children (making Cas that much more awesome), his willingness to forgive, and he’s the bravest being on the show IMO.  Like Chuck, I wanted to stand by him as he told Dean in S4 ‘I’ll hold them off, I’ll hold them all off.’ And he tried to do the same just last year while spitting out black goo.  When you look up ‘loyalty’ in the dictionary, there’s a picture of Cas’ face.  I’m not just being effusive, I believe everything I just write and could go on and on.  Yes, he makes mistakes. His sense of honor is his strength and weakness.  But since the overreach of S6, he has never let his ego get in the way.  He’s been tricked but he’s shown to be very clever as well. 

ITA that what happens to Cas often feels very clunky. They bring him back just to send him off.  They revive him but he’s always got a power limitation.  These things could, IMO be handled much better.  But they don’t.  

But if you are looking for a Cas fan, see me.  I legit love the guy.  

-waves to the fellow Cas fan- Sadly, though IMO a lot of the things that made Cas great have been banished by Dabb and Co. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

The only positive Cas related things I see these days are Destiel related things like "aww, he said I love you to Dean/ the Winchesters" or "Aw, Dean made Cas a mix tap". There's never any real comments about how much of a bad ass Cas is or how wonderful he is in his own right. The Castiel who could kick ass and actually learn from his mistake died when Carver died and all we have left now is the perpetual screw up. As I've said before last season was the first time I actually found myself thinking "just write him out already. A decent send off beats what they're doing now" and s13 thus far has done little to change that

Are you talking about here? Or out in Tumblr land or Twitter or what? Because I think here there is much more to the discussion of Castiel than what you are describing, even from me, the shipper LOL

I think it's dismissive to say that Cas' "I love you to Dean/the Winchesters" is only serving the Winchesters/non-canon shippers. That served Castiel's arc. 

That was a watershed moment for Castiel, an angel of the Lord, to tell specific human beings that he loves them. That he FEELS LOVE for them. They are  supposed to serve and protect them because God loves humanity, not because angels love them individually. At that moment, Castiel was saying that he loved the Winchesters as much as he loved God. That's HUGE, IMO. Yes, Dean is set apart with Cas because that is a key relationship for Dean and for Cas.  Whether folks LIKE that being a key relationship, that's a whole other kettle of fish but they are canonically best friends and family.

Under Dabb, Castiel has been given the role of parental/protector to the nephilim who is trying to do good in the world despite being Lucifer's spawn. That is a huge arc for Castiel. It was interrupted by Cas' death. I don't think they killed  Castiel JUST to make Dean mourn him. I think they did it to introduce the Empty and to align Jack and Sam to a degree as a mirror if nothing else. And that left what to do with Dean. Now IF one thinks Destiel is end game then YES I VOTE it was all written to give us a "mourning spouse"...but since I don't believe it's canon endgame, (boo) then Dean's grief was a by product of Cas' death and it HAD TO BE addressed and IF Dean didn't mourn Cas deeply that would have rang false regardless of shipping or not. And it also set up friction between Sam and Dean over the spawn.

Yes the mixtape was a wild thing and shippers do see it as cute, and textually that is showing that Dean sees Cas as family because he gave him a personal gift, that had value. And yes it was a plot contrivance for Cas to use that as a way to get into Dean's room for the Colt, which IMO was showing that Cas was desperate to relieve the boys of the burden of killing Kelly and Spawn. I also think Cas felt guilt and shame (needlessly) for admitting he loved human beings and the hay Angel pinged that guilty part of Cas.

So that "I love you" to the Winchesters, big for Castiel aside from any shipping. JMHO

[Aeryn13]

I`m a Dean-fan first and foremost but I do like Cas in his own right.

Ironically, I think he is getting material that would have potential but it is horribly executed. Like getting to play Casifer for a bit is in essence not bad - I would kill for Dean or rather Jensen to play "other" for a bit - but did it have to come about in that context? I know Cas needed to say "yes" to the possession, though they probably could have done a loophole if it is angel-on-angel, but it was so stupid to agree to Lucifer when clearly Lucifer couldn`t overpower someone on the level of God. 

Now, being stuck in the Empty and meeting another Godlike entity there, in essence not bad if it leads to something. 

However, the latest episode takes the cake for most stupid Cas-writing. He has been back one episode, ONE, and already they not only have him get stupidly captured but hang a lampshade on it to really drive the point home? OMG, that was insulting on basically every level. 

The Man who would be King is one of the best episodes of the entire show IMO. I consider it a fantastic Cas-episode and I want THAT caliber of writing back. 

Quote

There's never any real comments about how much of a bad ass Cas is

It was set up as a mistake that led to very bad things but I have to say I thought the scene where it is revealed that Cas double-crossed everyone, including Crowley, and had already opened Purgatory and gotten all the soul power was bad-ass. It was just such a decisive tactical move. So IMO even in the context of a mistake, Cas can be written as badass.

Unfortunately, that was back in Season 6. 

I thought downright blackmailing the Empty-keeper into letting him go was badass, though. Unfortunately, we don`t know yet if that really worked out. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would Cas have to believe Dean when Cas is the one that told Dean about the Paradise thing?

He wouldn't have to believe him, but Cas most definitely did not tell Dean that he was "brainwashed."

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Man who would be King is one of the best episodes of the entire show IMO. I consider it a fantastic Cas-episode and I want THAT caliber of writing back. 

Agreed 100% I thought Lily Sunder was the closest thus far to that episode.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He wouldn't have to believe him, but Cas most definitely did not tell Dean that he was "brainwashed."

Cas told Dean about Paradise at some point. He had to based on 13.03. Dean believes that Cas was brainwashed into protecting the nephilim. I'm not saying Cas said he was brainwashed. 

I'm saying that Dean not mentioning to Cas about his belief in Paradise was a big omission.  Dean could have said to Cas "Look man, you can't do this alone. Remember when you told me that Jack was going to bring Paradise, that you believed him, and then you were murdered because you went alone to protect him. We're not doing that again".  That is what I'm talking about.

[Aeryn13]

I liked the Lily Sunders episode though I would say overall it was guest star-centric. Cas played a role and had character development or at least backstory in it but the story focus was Lily`s. 

I did appreciate it for giving an angelic storyline that was intriguing and interesting for a change. Though unfortunately, you gotta tune out retconning stuff later again. "Mothers never survive Nephilim births". Really, angelic contingent, including Cas, who followed bad guy angel there, Then why did you think Lily had given birth to a Nephilim? I know bad guy angel didn`t believe it, I know murdererd good guy angel who protected Lily didn`t believe it. What is the other three angels` excuse?

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas told Dean about Paradise at some point. He had to based on 13.03. Dean believes that Cas was brainwashed into protecting the nephilim. I'm not saying Cas said he was brainwashed. 

I'm saying that Dean not mentioning to Cas about his belief in Paradise was a big omission.  Dean could have said to Cas "Look man, you can't do this alone. Remember when you told me that Jack was going to bring Paradise, that you believed him, and then you were murdered because you went alone to protect him. We're not doing that again".  That is what I'm talking about.

I know that Cas told Dean about paradise. You said:

Quote

 Why didn't Dean sit down with Cas and be like, you know, Jack brainwashed you and lead you to think Paradise was coming?

 

I'm saying that Cas would take issue with the "brainwash" aspect of it.  Other than that, I 'm not sure what you want Dean to tell him, because like you said, Cas is the one that told him about paradise.