Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I hope that was helpful more than confusing and/or sounded like I was being bossy.

 

I think you summed it up well. That's how I've viewed this thread as well, Mistress Awesom04000

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I disagree Cass never took responsibility for any of his actions. Just because other characters didn't place the responsibility on him, doesn't mean he didn't take responsibility for himself.

I mostly agree with you... with one glaring exception. I happen to have a fondness for "I Believe the Children..." and the idea of and character of Jesse (so much so that I gave him a large role in my multi-chapter fanfic), so I've watched that episode quite a few times (gotta get Jesse's character at least somewhat right), and I always find Castiel's angered rebuke of Sam with "You didn't" (make the right decision) extremely hypocritical. In my opinion, that was a good opportunity for Castiel to come clean and confess about any number of his bad decisions in season 4 - since it would have also proven his point in the argument - but he put it all on Sam and admitted no wrong-doing himself. That one kind of stuck with in terms of Castiel being a bit hypocritical.

So sometimes I entirely understand where @Bessie and @Hana Chan are coming from on that one. 

And I also agree on Castiel sometimes getting a "pass" too. Sam forgiving Castiel so easily in season 7, but apparently not Dean in season 9... to me that was bad, bad writing and / or a bad decision on Carver's part, because really? Castiel breaks Sam's wall and leaves him crazy and Sam forgives him almost immediately, but he doesn't forgive Dean for the Gadreel situation. Okay, yeah writers, that makes a ton of sense and way to ignore your character's established personality traits. I can see your point above, DDD, about them being more forgiving, because he's not human, but that was a little glaringly at odds for me. (The Carver years... moving on).

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I've never seen Cass as a substitute anything for Sam. Castiel will never take Sam's place for Dean or for me. I think it took a very long time for either Dean or Sam to consider Cass even friend, let alone family. I'm not sure they even do think of him as a "brother" now, but more of a brother in arms. But, I think he's earned that title at this point.

I have a few times. Not many, but there were hints. There was "Free to Be You and Me" which was somewhat confusing, because we had Dean telling Castiel that he was especially feeling good because he wasn't with Sam and didn't have to worry about the "son of a bitch" anymore, and that he'd had more fun with Cas than he had with Sam in years - which ouch Dean - and I wondered well, maybe Dean didn't really mean that, but then the very next episode - which wasn't that far in time from "Free to Be..." we had Dean pretty much disowning Sam ("we should just pick a hemisphere. Stay away from each other for good.") and - to me anyway - not seeming all that broken up about it. Dean was presumably going to meet up with Castiel later and continue his efforts to kill Lucifer with Castiel instead as his knew sometimes hunting partner, and was comfortable enough with that decision to fall back to sleep.

In purgatory, too, I would say that Castiel got an almost Sam's treatment there as well. Dean could've come back much sooner - going back to Sam - but he put Sam on hold while he searched for Castiel... who for all Dean knew had abandoned him in purgatory. But Dean spent as much time and effort searching for Castiel as he would have for Sam, in my opinion.

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've never seen the "brother" in Cass because they've never shown me they do anything else with Cass but work cases and/or fight monsters together. That's why I say brother in arms. Which doesn't mean they don't like or care about him, just that they also don't actually treat him like a brother as they treat each other.

I agree with @catrox14 on this one. The guys, and especially Dean, see Castiel as family. And looking for Cas in purgatory was definitely an example of that for me.

[DeeDee79]

On 10/30/2016 at 10:49 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean could've come back much sooner - going back to Sam - but he put Sam on hold while he searched for Castiel... who for all Dean knew had abandoned him in purgatory. But Dean spent as much time and effort searching for Castiel as he would have for Sam, in my opinion.

Hello all *waves* I'm not new to this site but new to this thread and I wanted to chime in after lurking for quite a bit. This quote in particular *points upward* made me want to respond. I respect your opinion AWESOMEO4000 but I don't think that Dean has ever given anyone the same consideration that he gives Sam and that includes Cas. Dean has shown that he's very loyal to those that he cares about and that's what drove him to search for Cas instead of hauling ass to the portal and back to Sam. I can't fathom Dean leaving someone behind when he had the means to help them reach safety; it would be completely out of character for him to do so. With that being said if it was the choice between Sam and Cas he would always choose Sam. That was apparent when Gadreel warned that he would leave without healing Sam if Cas wasn't sent away from the bunker and Dean did so without a second thought.

[AwesomO4000]

I respect your opinion also @DeeDee79, but I think the argument is still there that purgatory shows that Dean considers Castiel family and almost as important as Sam. While Dean was searching for Castiel, he had no idea that Castiel was even still there in purgatory or why Castiel left him behind. In my opinion, it was an awfully big risk to take to continue looking for him, and not one Dean would make for just anyone who up and disappeared on him without a word. For me, that is only something Dean would do for family. Also Dean was taking this time to find Cas while he had no idea what Sam's condition even was. Sam could've been hurt or killed in the blast or taken by Crowley (like Kevin was) or nabbed by some leftover leviathans. Dean had no way of knowing that Sam was okay or if Sam needed Dean. Dean just ended up being lucky that Sam was okay while he was gone all that time.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I respect your opinion also @DeeDee79, but I think the argument is still there that purgatory shows that Dean considers Castiel family and almost as important as Sam. While Dean was searching for Castiel, he had no idea that Castiel was even still there in purgatory or why Castiel left him behind. In my opinion, it was an awfully big risk to take to continue looking for him, and not one Dean would make for just anyone who up and disappeared on him without a word. For me, that is only something Dean would do for family. Also Dean was taking this time to find Cas while he had no idea what Sam's condition even was. Sam could've been hurt or killed in the blast or taken by Crowley (like Kevin was) or nabbed by some leftover leviathans. Dean had no way of knowing that Sam was okay or if Sam needed Dean. Dean just ended up being lucky that Sam was okay while he was gone all that time.

I understand your viewpoint but while Dean may care about Cas it is in no way on the same level as Sam. Saying that Cas is like family doesn't mean that Dean views him as equal to Sam; I wouldn't even think that Dean would pick John over Sam and he's actual family. We have to consider that Cas contributed to killing Dick Roman after he had taken on Sam's wall ( which admittedly he was at fault for breaking ) and due to the fact that even though he's an angel he was significantly weakened.  He's still important to Dean it's not out of character that he would want to make sure that he made it to safety. Dean would have assumed that Cas was in danger or that he had gotten unknowingly separated from him; he wouldn't think that Cas had abandoned him because he's always gone above and beyond to help whenever the Winchesters were in need even to the detriment of himself and his standing in Heaven. Sam may have been in peril but he's a hunter and just as capable as Dean and most importantly still on Earth whereas Dean was in a completely unknown and dangerous landscape as was Cas. Dean and Cas were definitely in more immediate danger and I don't think that wanting to return to safety with one that is considered family means that they hold more importance to that of actual family. Again, YMMV but that's my humble opinion. Cas is important to Dean but in no way as important as Sam.

[trxr4kids]

After watching the latest ep, Celebrating The Life of Asa Fox, I decided to bring my comments here because I'm going to retread old ground and don't want to risk potentially derailing the episode topic with my issues. 

Mary- I'm really irritated that they brought her back because I knew that they'd make a mess of it in some way. On the one hand if they brought her back and her sole role was to be mom and make up for lost time it would have been grating and yet on the other I find what they're doing with the character nonsensical. She wanted more than anything to have a normal life yet hunted when Dean was a year old, okay sure. She didn't want her kids raised as hunters and I'm not one for angst but shouldn't the way John raised them be an issue for her especially since she has his journal, surely he has hunts listed in there that coincide with birthdays and holidays not to mention the constant moving but nope. I'm all for Mary finding her place in the world outside of Sam and Dean but I just think the way they've done it is another case of them making the character fit the story instead of the other way around.

Sam-I don't even know where to start so pretend this makes sense and isn't a diatribe ;) 3 out of 6 episodes had him unconscious and tied up, 2 in a tiny chair, wow show. Again I wonder if ropes and little chairs are part of the Sam wardrobe at this point. I actually had my son who is 22, 5'8 and physically fit and my daughter 20, 5' and physically fit attempt a possible reenactment of the Sam vs Cole or Sam vs LadyDieAlready wrangling since they have approximately the same size difference. She was able to drag his limp form slowly a few feet across the hardwood but could in no way keep his floppy form in a sitting position to attempt to hoist him into a dining chair, so they switched he also could not successfully maneuver her noodely form into a chair from the floor as the chair and her body kept slipping at which point she was laughing and no longer able to remain limp. It was all for science or my personal amusement whichever. I'm more of a Dean fan than Sam however I no longer dislike Sam as I have in the past thanks to selective viewing, blaming Carver and to some extent Gamble and @AwesomO4000's well thought out pro Sam posts which always make me think, yes I can see that even if I don't necessarily agree. That brings me to a peeve of mine with the writing for Sam, he's tortured and we get a season and 1/2 of him heroically overcoming it, or he's tortured and then works with the torturer (Cole) or he's tortured and then eats chicken and smiles, can I get some consistency here or here's a better idea STOP TORTURING SAM! I forgot the wonky combinations like with Lucifer and Cas, to me Cas breaking Sam's hell wall was just as bad as if he had been at fault for the memories in the first place which he arguably was since had he not let Sam out of the panic room Lucifer wouldn't have gotten out and Sam wouldn't have gone to the cage. The couple of times Sam has actually been upset at someone and didn't want to forgive it was Dean and it was manufactured angst for dramas sake and I sorta refuse to count it because Carver reasons. So I would like for Sam to maybe take a minute out of playing mediator and all around empathy champion to maturely express or at least acknowledge his own feelings of whatever it is he's feeling to Mary or Dean instead of being so unreasonably understanding or sympathetic. I was hoping he'd get a Jody moment too, dammit.

Lucifer- I don't care about him at all, it might have been interesting if Chuck had brought Michael back in the form of Matt Cohen or Gabriel since there wasn't that much cannon to mess with but they've retconned Lucifer to be unrecognizable along with the cage and hell in general.

Billie- why is she there, oh that's right they killed Death so we could have an attractive woman taunt Sam and Dean. So original show.

Jody- I worry every time she's in an episode, the bastards.

Dean- I'm pretty sure he's gone 6 whole episodes without a single man tear, so hurray, oh wait when he was looking at those pictures and I was distracted by the out of time photo I bet it happened. I skipped a couple of episodes so I don't know if he's unnecessarily bitchy, broody or belligerent in those but other than several incompetent hunter moments his character seems to be fairing well this season. Shit shouldn't have typed that I've doomed us all.

Red Eyes & Other Crappy Special Effects- Please stop, it's overkill.

BMoL-Do Not Care

Overall it seems like their myth arc is mostly Lucifer with a side of BMoL and in case you missed it it's been mentioned in every episode I saw that Sam was his vessel. I think they keep mentioning it not because it's going to matter at all but to make us worry for Sam, much like having Billie pop up at random, it's not working for me though. I just wish if they do season 13 they stop with the endless repetition.

Edited November 18, 2016 by trxr4kids

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I was hoping he'd get a Jody moment too, dammit.

Oh, pffth. I haven't been able to see the episode yet, but I'm sad to see this. Sam doesn't have many recurring characters associated with him anymore - and non-evil ones especially - and Jodi is usually one of those. So it's too bad that that trend didn't continue.

I may have more to say when I finally do get to watch the episode.

And I am glad to see that my posts have helped in some way. I often enjoy your posts as well.

9 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

...to me Cas breaking Sam's hell wall was just as bad as if he had been at fault for the memories in the first place which he arguably was since had he not let Sam out of the panic room Lucifer wouldn't have gotten out and Sam wouldn't have gone to the cage.

I agree. This is why I generally forgive Sam's trial addled outburst about Castiel in the season 8 finale. Sam is generally pretty forgiving (Carver years notwithstanding), but under stress, I could see him getting a bit pissy about Dean seeming to put more trust/faith in the angel who broke his sanity than Sam himself. I think maybe sometimes Dean doesn't think about that history and that Sam personally has some reason to sometimes question Castiel's actions.

[amensisterfriend]

I genuinely love S10. I can't even justify why. Even worse? I like S7 and S8.  

Jody Mills is my favorite female character of this entire series. (Granted, that's a pretty low bar, but I just really like Jody!)

I've grown to like and appreciate Sam and JP's acting far more than I ever thought I could. 

While I get the very popular opinion that the beginning seasons were better than the later ones overall and agree that's probably true of this and nearly every other show, I've kind of come to believe that overall the later seasons aren't nearly as bad as they're often made out to be---and that the beginning seasons weren't nearly as flawless as THEY'RE made out to be :) 

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

While I get the very popular opinion that the beginning seasons were better than the later ones overall and agree that's probably true of this and nearly every other show, I've kind of come to believe that overall the later seasons aren't nearly as bad as they're often made out to be---and that the beginning seasons weren't nearly as flawless as THEY'RE made out to be :) 

There's no season of this--or many shows--that doesn't have problems, it all just depends on your own tolerance for the problems at hand. I do prefer the look and feel of the early seasons, but they have their issues too. S9 is really the only season I can genuinely say I dislike. 

[7kstar]

3 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

While I get the very popular opinion that the beginning seasons were better than the later ones overall and agree that's probably true of this and nearly every other show, I've kind of come to believe that overall the later seasons aren't nearly as bad as they're often made out to be---and that the beginning seasons weren't nearly as flawless as THEY'RE made out to be :) 

I love Jody!  But I also loved Ellen.  I had a head writer once tell me, in a season you will have 4 to 5 really strong ep, some in the middle and then 4 or so that stink.  Not a word for word translation.  7 isn't my fav but I imagine I wouldn't hate it as much as I did then, but I never like the big bad once they started with the dick jokes.  I have seen many flaws with every head writer. 

JP has improved as an actor over the years and for me that is to be expected.  He's lived more, experienced more so he has more to draw from when creating his character.

My expectations aren't sky high anymore either so I just enjoy the ones I like and know that some I will never like.  :)

[Blandings]

I am so happy that other folks here still love this elderly but addicting show. It's got its fair share of flaws, but I love it anyway and am in until the end.  A little time with my favorite brothers and some cathartic horror may distract me from my disappointment over the Gilmore Girls revival. I'm watching Mystery Spot, Fan Fiction and a few other of my go-to episodes as soon as I finish typing this post.   

Season 10 is one of my favorites. I knew as soon as I saw Fan Fiction that I had to own the season even though I'd promised myself I'd stop buying SPN DVDs. The humor works especially well in season 10, it was fun to see Sam worrying about Dean instead of the other way around, and I liked the Mark of Cain plot. Jensen acted the heck out of those scenes and I always enjoy when the show explores what makes us dark and how we rise above it.  

I love Sam, Dean and Castiel, and I love Sam/Dean's sibling relationship and Dean/Castiel's friendship. In some other place I've been it almost feels like you have to pick only one of those characters or one of those relationships, and I really love them all. 

I liked Jo, Bella, Charley and some other characters who most fans didn't. I agree with the above about Jody Mills being great, and I like Donna as well. 

I like seasons 8-11 more than the Carver seasons, 6 and 7, but I think 6 and 7 get a bad rap. There are some great episodes in those seasons that I love watching. Season 3 deserves more love too. I prefer it to season 4 and 5.

I don't hate Amelia. Is that the most unpopular one written here? Please don't hate me for having such bad taste. 

I'm glad John Winchester died when he did; I would have really tired of him and his constant conflicts with Sam if he had remained on the series much longer, and it was more interesting to me to see Dean and Sam focus on things other than finding and dealing with their dad. I didn't mind Bobby dying off when he did either. I'm not as heartless as this paragraph makes me sound! I loved Bobby's time on the show but don't feel like he was essential to my enjoyment of it.  

I even read some of the terrible tie-in Supernatural books. My addiction is out of control. 

[SueB]

11 hours ago, Blandings said:

 

I don't hate Amelia. Is that the most unpopular one written here? Please don't hate me for having such bad taste. 

 

 

Judgement free zone! Safe place. 

[catrox14]

I am really tired of the show trying to redraw Dean as a person who just doesn't remember 'saving people, hunting things' for character propping/plot shenanigans especially when Dean IS THE PERSON who coined that mantra from the beginning of the show and reiterated it to Mary in 12x01 with : " But Sam and me... saving people and hunting things, this is our life. I think we make the world a better place. I know that we do."

What is the fucking POINT of them having Sam or anyone else remind Dean of his own mantra which he hasn't forgotten despite having been a demon?? 

And when it comes from Sam it's especially grating because Sam KNOWS better about Dean. ARGGGhhhh!!! 

[Aeryn13]

Well, that`s the gospel of the Carver and Dabb era (maybe the impetus came from Dabb) where Dean only ever cares about Sam and noone else ever, certainly never thinks about saving people while Sam is the enlightened one who worships life. But only when it is convenient to pontificate about it. When not he will give as much of a crap as everyone else.

Every showrunner so far has their own stereotypes for the characters. Individual writers may put forth a more well-rounded or more favourable representation but overall the show sticks to the party line.

Kripke`s era had a Dean that into saving people the most. With Gamble, well, Dean was basically the character she didn`t want to bang so there isn`t that much in terms of an actual character definition beyond that. Carver, I think it was indifference to the character for the most part. With Dabb, I`d say it`s actual dislike.    

[amensisterfriend]

So I'm rewatching S2 for the first time in ages and, wow, I'd actually forgotten just how much I adore this season of television. That's probably not all that unpopular, though---I think a lot of people I know love S2 and would even name it as a favorite...?!  

So I'll get to the unpopular part: I LOVE Roadkill. It's one of my go to, could-watch-it-over-and-over episodes. Even now that I obviously know the twist, there's so much I love about this episode: the acting, the overall atmosphere and feel, the fact that I'm a total sucker for ghost stories in general and 'what if the dead don't know they're dead?!' premises in particular :) I know many think Dean is too harsh in this episode, but I actually think he's got a few great moments here and get where he's coming from.  

A couple more S2 episodes I almost never hear mentioned among popular favorites but which I'm totally obsessed with: Crossroad Blues (such rich, fascinating ideas, such perfect tone/atmosphere), All Hell Breaks Loose (yes, even the first part!) and Heart.

Mentioning Heart leads to my UO that I thought Sam had more chemistry/potential with Madison than anyone else throughout the series. 

Then again, I also hold the UO that my favorite pairing for Dean would be Dean/Tessa, so clearly I have bizarre taste when it comes to these things!  

Oh, and the ultimate S2 UO: I don't dislike Jo. She's not a special favorite, but I like the actress and am generally fine with her more-limited-than-I'd-remembered presence this season :)

 Even my least favorite S2 episodes have some scenes that make them well worth rewatching. I totally recommend a large dose of S2 to anyone else who starts to feel disillusioned with recent seasons and needs a reminder as to why some of us fell for this show in the first place! 

[DittyDotDot]

47 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

Even my least favorite S2 episodes have some scenes that make them well worth rewatching. I totally recommend a large dose of S2 to anyone else who starts to feel disillusioned with recent seasons and needs a reminder as to why some of us fell for this show in the first place! 

Hey, that's what I was going to say! ;) 

I was recently thinking about how many shows second seasons are generally my favorite over the long haul. This show is no different in that respect. It's not so much they had better ideas back in the day, but overall the show feels like everyone pushing each other to the next level and its all heading somewhere. Even the clunkers in S2--which every season has a few--have their moments that make them watchable and re-watchable.

[catrox14]

My unpopular opinion is that I don't think liking S2 is all that unpopular.  Most rankings of seasons I see at various outlets have s2 usually in the top 5. It's certainly in my top 5

I thought s2 had good balance between the characters, story lines and some of the best character growth for both Dean and Sam. Bobby's role was not over done, yet. Nightshifter alone elevates it to a pretty high level for me because Victor Henriksen, Ronald Resnick and gross gooey shapeshifter lore and Styx. Add to that "In My Time of Dying", Everybody Loves a Clown, Croatoan, Hollywood Babylon, Folsom Prison Blues (with more Henriksen), What Is and What Should Never Be, AHBL Pt2  and Dean selling his soul for Sam makes it a winner season for me.

[FlickChick]

S2 is still my favorite for all the reasons catrox mentions above. Add in "Born Under a Bad Sign" (IMO, Jared's best episode of the series) and the last few minutes of "AHBL, Pt1" and I have a winner! My favorite episode in the series is WIAWSNB.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

S2 is still my favorite for all the reasons catrox mentions above. Add in "Born Under a Bad Sign" (IMO, Jared's best episode of the series) and the last few minutes of "AHBL, Pt1" and I have a winner! My favorite episode in the series is WIAWSNB.

Oh yeah, good call about the last minutes of AHBL pt1 and I forgot about Born Under a Bad Sign. For some reason I always think that episode was in s1 or s3. I have no idea why. LOL. I think Jared was quite good in that episode but I still give the nod to his work as Samifer in The End as his best work of the series. He was so good and so creepy and so defiant and smug and excellent. I think Jared is really the best Lucifer.

Edited December 5, 2016 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

I hated S2 when it first aired. I didn't like the forced Joe/Dean stuff, I hated the angst and just really felt the season was in a sophomore slump.

I recently caught most of S2 on TNT and was surprised at how much I enjoyed the episodes. Before I would probably say there were less than 10 really enjoyable episodes but, now I'd say there is probably around 5 or 6 episodes that I didn't enjoy.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[DeeDee79]

I'm still getting my feet wet on this forum and I hope I don't alienate anyone with the following unpopular opinions :)

• I don't hate John Winchester. I think he was a neglectful parent whose actions were largely due to grief and rage but he wasn't the heartless monster that much of fandom has made him out to be.
• While I'm mostly a Dean girl I love both brothers. It saddens me when I follow lively and interesting episode discussion that veers into brother vs. brother wars. Both are flawed and both are awesome; you don't have to tear down one to like the other.
• I like Castiel but I wouldn't be bothered if he were no longer on the show. I feel that he had definitely done alot for the brothers and the shows overall mythology but when he's not there I don't miss him or think about him. I would enjoy the show equally as much if he was gone.
• I like Crowley but enjoyed him more when he was a genuine adversary instead of a buddy/partner to TFW. When he tries to be threatening now there's no real menace behind it.
• Following on the heels of my last opinion is that I wish that Sam and Dean still faced down genuinely scary creatures. They no longer seemed phased by anything that crosses their path unless it's something bigger that could threaten their overall existence ( the Darkness, MOC, Leviathans, etc.) I understand at a certain point it would be unrealistic for them to not be jaded by what they may face but I still miss it.
• I didn't like the Trickster and I don't know why so much of fandom is so enamored of him. His so-called "lessons" were about his own amusement and agenda; he didn't care about anyone else as far as I could see.
• Azazel and Abbadon were the best baddies on the show; Lucifer has lost his bite because he's always shown as more of a petulant child than a villain.

That's all I got for now *bites nails*

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought s2 had good balance between the characters, story lines and some of the best character growth for both Dean and Sam. Bobby's role was not over done, yet. Nightshifter alone elevates it to a pretty high level for me because Victor Henriksen, Ronald Resnick and gross gooey shapeshifter lore and Styx. Add to that "In My Time of Dying", Everybody Loves a Clown, Croatoan, Hollywood Babylon, Folsom Prison Blues (with more Henriksen), What Is and What Should Never Be, AHBL Pt2  and Dean selling his soul for Sam makes it a winner season for me.

I agree wholeheartedly to all of this. Season 2 is my most rewatched season; Nightshifter is one of my top ten fave eps of the entire series partly due to the addition of Henriksen and I also love Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things, Roadkill, Playthings, Crossroad Blues and Tall Tales. I especially have a soft spot for Roadkill because the ending showed for the first time that all spirits weren't vengeful and that there was a possibility for a peaceful afterlife.

[AwesomO4000]

I'm probably biased, and I'm pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I liked most of All Hell..., pt. 1, almost better than part 2 even. I liked what we learned about Sam in part 1.We got to see a Sam who was perfectly capable of taking over a situation and leading a group, but at the same time, he still wished that Dean was there, because he would be more comfortable with Dean around to take the lead, because Sam had confidence that Dean "would know what to do." Without Dean there, Sam could do it, but at the same time he had to put on that face and pretend to be more confident than he was. I like to think Sam learned a bit about Dean from that experience.

In addition, I liked the bit of mystery in the episode. I was not expecting what happened - poor Andy - and Jake was an interesting antagonist, because he wasn't just one dimensional. I liked his conversations with Sam, and his insights into what Sam was doing. He could've gone either way, but ended up slipping to the other side. I think part of that was because it was all thrown on him so quickly. Sam knew who they were dealing with and not to trust him. Jake was flying blind, and chose incorrectly.

The end was tragic because Sam tried to do the right thing, and once again that let him down. And Sam was so relieved to see Dean, thinking he (Sam) had made it through, only to be cut down and die in Dean's arms.

In some ways, I liked it better than part 2 (blasphemy I know), mostly because it was more unexpected (for me), and part 2 did fall into the trap of having some cliched situations (again, for me, anyway). And I could tell even then that I wasn't going to be too fond of the maybe Sam "came back wrong" thing. I personally thought the way Sam shot Jake was a bit over the top and out of character in order to tease that "came back wrong" thing (that didn't even end up really going anywhere anyway.) So yeah, in many ways, I preferred All Hell.., pt 1 even though parts of AHBL pt 2 were pretty great. Too bad the premier of season 3 did not live up to it - for me anyway.

Another unpopular opinion - For me, the best finale/season opening combination besides Devil's Trap / In My Time of Dying (season 1 -2) was The Man Who Knew Too Much / Meet the New Boss (season 6 - 7).

[Diane]

I don't think it's an unpopular opinion to love season 2 it's one of the best as far as I am concerned. 

[Myrelle]

I love Roadkill, too! And for the same reason that I like Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things-HunterExtraordinaireDean. The way he wielded the sawed-off in Roadkill. Waiting like a wolf in that chair for Farmer Roadkill to show up. The slide into that grave at the end of CSPWDT. And you could have knocked me over with a feather when we found out at the end that it was himself he was talking about when he kept repeating "What's dead should stay dead." and not John. And to me these were some of the first cases that they now classify as "milk runs". Classic Supernatural to me.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And for the same reason that I like Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things-HunterExtraordinaireDean.

Me too. The case in the episode was so-so but Dean was fantastically badass and smart in it and back then the angst was impactful and I liked the depiction. It was technically a lesser episode than the three before but it really hit all my buttons. On the other hand, I liked neither part of All Hell Breaks loose, the first one because Dean had neither screentime nor a plot in its absence and the second one because I hated that he made the deal.

My unpopular opinion about Season 2: I didn`t like Andy, the mind-bending psykid. They played him as the goofy "good" twin of the duo but his whole set-up was so shady already (leaving the girl`s appartment etc), he struck me the same way as the guy in the wishing well episode who used his wish to make his crush into his girlfriend. And the whined when the spell was broken how homely-looking people like him had it so rough. I thought Andy was the same "I just have a bit of fun with my powers, where is the harm in that?" thing going on.

Ironically, either shows seem to have a great second Season (Buffy, SPN) or implode in a sophomore slump (Sleepy Hollow). Off the top of my head, I can`t recall one that was in the middle.     

[sarthaz]

On 12/5/2016 at 3:37 PM, catrox14 said:

My unpopular opinion is that I don't think liking S2 is all that unpopular.  Most rankings of seasons I see at various outlets have s2 usually in the top 5. It's certainly in my top 5

I thought s2 had good balance between the characters, story lines and some of the best character growth for both Dean and Sam. Bobby's role was not over done, yet. Nightshifter alone elevates it to a pretty high level for me because Victor Henriksen, Ronald Resnick and gross gooey shapeshifter lore and Styx. Add to that "In My Time of Dying", Everybody Loves a Clown, Croatoan, Hollywood Babylon, Folsom Prison Blues (with more Henriksen), What Is and What Should Never Be, AHBL Pt2  and Dean selling his soul for Sam makes it a winner season for me.

Love this season, but Croatoan?  Croa-f'n-toan?

[FlickChick]

Then perhaps it's unpopular that I like "Croatoan". Who doesn't like an episode with a "deemonic" virus in it? LOL

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, FlickChick said:

Who doesn't like an episode with a "deemonic" virus in it? LOL

Heh, ME!!!!! ;)

[Aeryn13]

I never cared for Croatoan. Though Hunted was so much worse of an episode. And Playthings was boring. That middle spot during Season 2 is really weak for me. It only picked up again with Nightshifter.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Love this season, but Croatoan?  Croa-f'n-toan?

Yup. I really like Croatoan. And I love that they brought back the virus for The End so it gets an extra star for me for that.

[DeeDee79]

13 hours ago, Myrelle said:

The way he wielded the sawed-off in Roadkill.

The "Whoops"- bang scene? Love it too!

[Myrelle]

It was like the weapon was just another appendage of his. YOWZA! ;-)

[DeeDee79]

On 12/5/2016 at 6:46 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm probably biased, and I'm pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I liked most of All Hell..., pt. 1, almost better than part 2 even. I liked what we learned about Sam in part 1.We got to see a Sam who was perfectly capable of taking over a situation and leading a group, but at the same time, he still wished that Dean was there, because he would be more comfortable with Dean around to take the lead, because Sam had confidence that Dean "would know what to do." Without Dean there, Sam could do it, but at the same time he had to put on that face and pretend to be more confident than he was. I like to think Sam learned a bit about Dean from that experience.

I enjoyed part 1 more than part 2 also. I was glad to finally see a resolution to all of the kids that Azazel had chosen and find out his reasons for doing so. That being said this is an episode that I've only rewatched once or twice. With all of the times and ways that the brothers have died throughout the years the first deaths were the hardest to watch and it's painful watching Sam being stabbed and then dying in Dean's arms.

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

It was like the weapon was just another appendage of his. YOWZA! ;-)

Yes!!

Edited December 6, 2016 by DeeDee79

[Boopsahoy]

My UO is that I never was interested in the psychic kid storyline. At all.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

My UO is that I never was interested in the psychic kid storyline. At all.

Yeah, it didn't do much for me either. It was a pretty silly long-term plan of Yellow Eyes if you ask me. But, like I always say, no villainous plot can't be brought down with a little logic and rational thought, but those things don't belong here. ;)

[Boopsahoy]

UO of the day-I liked the episode last night. It wasn't great but I enjoyed it. I didn't like that they had in show a fictional President.  I still remember Dean saying OH and we have a black President!  I like it better when real life is mirrored in the show. But whatever.

I liked the idea that Lucifer needs to create something to compete with Dad. I thought that was interesting and that the nephalim might be an interesting storyline. No way the show is going to have her have an abortion. I actually think Mr. Ketch will get her.  Maybe the BMOL will keep her alive to study the child or something interesting like that. I kept telling my husband that the cab driver was going to be Mr. Ketch -I guess I have to wait a over a month to find out if I am correct.

I can see that the writers are having a hard time keeping Cas in the story without overusing his powers...but they need to say this is what he can do and this is what he cant do..He fooled with the secret service guys perceptions. couldn't he have done that other times? I think they are just picking and choosing when he can have powers. I do understand if hes too powerful the show would be boring as there would be no threats. But there must be a better way.

Sam called the BMOL? I call bullcrap....

[Bessie]

I don't think this opinion is unpopular, but it's obviously bitter so here goes: Last week for the first time ever, I consciously chose not to watch Supernatural. This week, I did it for the second time ever and I've been watching from the very beginning of the series. I was at home, there was an available tv, I knew Supernatural was on (I have forgotten on occasion) and I. . .didn't watch. I'm indifferent to the Lucifer storyline and I don't enjoy the ensemble version of supernatural when the boys are side characters. And so I didn't watch. 

I suppose 11 years is a pretty good tv show-viewer relationship, but we're not going steady anymore. It's more of an on-again off-again deal. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by Bessie

[Demented Daisy]

For what it's worth, here are the numbers for the first half of the season:

Dean Plans -- 2
Dean Saves -- 1
Dean Kills -- 1

Sam Plans -- 1
Sam Saves -- 1
Sam Kills -- 1

Joint Plans -- 1
Joint Saves -- 5
Joint Kills -- 0

No Plan -- 4
No Save -- 1
No Kill -- 6

I'm not going to add these to the overall tally yet.  I had a few minutes to kill, so I figured why not.  :-) 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I like that the saves seem to be up this year.  

[Bessie]

Quote

Do the J's not want to work any more so they're content to be guest stars? If so, then I think it's time to admit that and wrap it up. 

@FlickChick wrote this in the episode thread and I want to respond in this thread because it's a pretty bitter response.  So, y'all are forewarned! 

I do think some of my issues with the direction of the show come from the need for J2 to have time off. I don't begrudge them this at all, but it does impact what the writers/showrunners can do. 

In order to accommodate J2 there have to be other stories and characters, I accept that. What bothers me are the ones they choose to tell.  I thought there was a lot of potential with the introduction of Mary and the BMoL and it's going unused, so far anyway.

I'm guessing the Lucifer story is Plot B because it makes sense given the two other actors they have under contract can be easily tied into it. I wish they would've shaken things up and given Samantha Smith and the actor playing Mr. Whateverhisnameis the contracts and kept Cas and Crowley around for an occasional appearance. 

But, they went with what they know and I understand that. Particularly when you're twelve years in taking a risk probably isn't very appealing. 

[MysteryGuest]

I can understand if Jensen and Jared want some time off once in a while, but their limited screen time has been a recurring theme this season.  I would prefer an episode or two without them, if need be, rather than just walk on scenes in every episode.  I know that Jensen has mentioned sticking with the show as long as he still found the work interesting and rewarding, but I can't see how that's the case this season.  I realize he could just be saying that, and the reality is that they have a pretty cushy job right now.  They make good salaries, they make sizable checks from their con appearances, they get to be big stars to their fans, but not too big that they can't lead pretty normal lives away from SPN.  I can see where that would be hard to walk away from.  But at least so far, there's been nothing challenging in the way of acting for them this season.  At least not in my opinion.

[Aeryn13]

Their screentime has been getting reduced for at least two years now, if not more, it becomes less and less each Season. At this point they probably work half as much as when the show started, for twice the pay. I`m convinced that this is the premiere thing they negotiate for when it comes to new contracts: less work. And it becomes more and more noticeable. 

Granted, if you structure an episode cleverly enough and have interesting guest stars, you can space out less scenes over an episode to make it seem an actor is in it more than they technically are. You can also alternate with episodes that actually feature the actor a lot so it doesn`t look like so much like a pattern. They`ve more or less tried those things already. I guess at this point you can no longer hide it, it`s like overly large accesories and no body shots when a show wants to hide a pregnant actress. At some point it doesn`t work.

I will say the last episode was one of the most obvious in terms of that. The plot focused on Lucifer, even the emo focused on Lucifer, a guest star got a shiny new intro scene and all the regulars got...nothing exciting to do at all. With a set-up like this, limited screentime is twenty times more obvious. 

[DeeDee79]

I rewatched the Asa Fox ep and I came away with another unpopular opinion: I don't despise/mind Billie. Let me preface by saying that I love Supernatural and it's my must see tv. With that being said as a woman of color it would be nice to see a little representation on my favorite show. The best we've gotten was Rufus who was awesome and Kevin who died brutally (both of whom were killed unnecessarily!!!). I understand her animosity because the brothers have cheated death numerous times and then killed Death who had done them a solid more than once; for instance restoring Sam's soul was no small feat. I feel that she's going to become an ally rather than an enemy based on their interaction with her thus far. She's griped and grumbled about the Winchesters but helped them out when they needed her.

[MysteryGuest]

29 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I rewatched the Asa Fox ep and I came away with another unpopular opinion: I don't despise/mind Billie. Let me preface by saying that I love Supernatural and it's my must see tv. With that being said as a woman of color it would be nice to see a little representation on my favorite show. The best we've gotten was Rufus who was awesome and Kevin who died brutally (both of whom were killed unnecessarily!!!). I understand her animosity because the brothers have cheated death numerous times and then killed Death who had done them a solid more than once; for instance restoring Sam's soul was no small feat. I feel that she's going to become an ally rather than an enemy based on their interaction with her thus far. She's griped and grumbled about the Winchesters but helped them out when they needed her.

I totally agree.  I think what we've seen of her thus far this season has born that out.  She didn't have to help Dean gain entrance back into the house, but she did.  And she was kind to Mary, not mean or threatening.  I still think their combined efforts to save the world last season gave her a new respect for just what they do.  In the same way that I think Death respected them.  

[DittyDotDot]

I like Billie. I think she's interesting and I like what the actress brings to the role. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't trade her for Death, though...love me some Death! ;)

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I totally agree.  I think what we've seen of her thus far this season has born that out.  She didn't have to help Dean gain entrance back into the house, but she did.  And she was kind to Mary, not mean or threatening.  I still think their combined efforts to save the world last season gave her a new respect for just what they do.  In the same way that I think Death respected them.  

Exactly! I feel that when she helped them with gathering the souls needed to save Chuck it was a turning point in her perception of the Winchesters. She almost seems reluctantly fond of them now.

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I like Billie. I think she's interesting and I like what the actress brings to the role. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't trade her for Death, though...love me some Death! ;)

I miss Death and his love for greasy snack foods!

[MysteryGuest]

I'm holding out hope that Death will make a return this season.  It's been hinted at, so that's something to look forward to.

[Myrelle]

So... just wondering if liking S9 and 10 is an unpopular opinion at this site. I watched every episode in those two seasons(except Fan Fiction) after having almost given up on the show entirely after S8(I skipped a good number in the second half of that season). For me those two seasons were a resurgence and gave us some new and innovative changes that the show was in dire need of, at that point. The last half of nine and most of ten actually saved this show for me, but I get the feeling that most here didn't like them and that 11(which I found to predominantly be a return to profound mediocrity and very similar to S5-8, especially where the writing was concerned) is far more popular here.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Myrelle
grammar

[Aeryn13]

I think the underlying story of the Mark of Cain was very interesting and there could have been done so much with it. I still enjoy those Seasons for having that story even in the truncated version they did but I thought they could have been vastly better writing-wise. I enjoy them much more than 8.B for sure since it`s quite impossible for me to enjoy anything less than that. And Seasons 6 and 7 were mostly a drag for me. So I share your opinion in prefering 9 and 10 over those.

Season 11 was a grave disappointment. An equally potentially interesting storyline but mishandled to the high heavens. And - very unpopular opinion- the standalones were mindblowingly shitty. Like, the worst crap of standalones of any Season ever. Even the bad ones.

And so far Season 12 seems to be a blend of Seasons 7 and 11 for me. No interesting story in sight (Season 7) and meh standalones (Season 11). I know it has only been 8 episodes but I guess this is roughly the caliber of creativity and writing "Bloodlines" would have given us if it ever went to show.