Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Bessie]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I’ve thought both Jared and Jensen have only been in it for the money since at least S8 and S9!

Agreed. If we take Sheppard at his word, he's the only one who isn't in it for the money. And you know what? It's their livelihood, of course they're in it for the money. This does not reflect poorly on any of them. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Bessie

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Agreed. If we take Sheppard at his word, he's the only one who isn't in it for the money. And you know what? It's their livelihood, of course they're in it for the money. This does not reflect poorly on any of them. 

True, although fairly or unfairly, I do have more respect for the likes of Sheppard who quit when his character feels spent, or the leads of other shows who opt to end a show rather than allow it to keep going and decline in quality. 

[MysteryGuest]

They're actors who are working on a show that's been around for 13 years (longest in US history).  They like their characters, they enjoy their co-stars and crew, they're making great money and are at the point where they have a little more control over their work schedules.  They have a very rabid fanbase that follows them around the country and pays big bucks to hear them answer the same questions they've answered a thousand times.  And most of those same fans have openly begged them not to end the show.  The odds of either one of them walking off this show and finding another successful show are very slim.  It just doesn't happen all that often.  They're young men with young families and these are their earning years.  I can absolutely understand why they're hesitant to just walk away.  Especially after all of the hype the shows been given this year.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

They're actors who are working on a show that's been around for 13 years (longest in US history).  They like their characters, they enjoy their co-stars and crew, they're making great money and are at the point where they have a little more control over their work schedules.  They have a very rabid fanbase that follows them around the country and pays big bucks to hear them answer the same questions they've answered a thousand times.  And most of those same fans have openly begged them not to end the show.  The odds of either one of them walking off this show and finding another successful show are very slim.  It just doesn't happen all that often.  They're young men with young families and these are their earning years.  I can absolutely understand why they're hesitant to just walk away.  Especially after all of the hype the shows been given this year.  

I did acknowledge that it’s probably unfair of me to feel this way, but I do have more respect for those who will walk away while a show is still good than those who stay year after year while watching the show become a shadow of its former self. Just my opinion :)

[MysteryGuest]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I did acknowledge that it’s probably unfair of me to feel this way, but I do have more respect for those who will walk away while a show is still good than those who stay year after year while watching the show become a shadow of its former self. Just my opinion :)

I don't really disagree, as there have been plenty of shows that I thought needed to hang it up long before they did.  I don't really feel that way about this show though, for some reason.  I still enjoy watching, even if it can be frustrating sometimes.  

I'm not really sure what to think about Mark S.  I'm not so sure he would have left of his own volition, even though he thought Crowley's storylines had dried up a while ago.  It's easy to say that when you've been asked to leave, or told your contract will not be renewed.  

The only person I ever heard talking about milking the show as long as possible was Misha.  He was laughing when he said it, but I'm sure it's not far from the truth.  He's got the perfect set up.  A steady paycheck, limited working hours and lots of freedom to travel and work with Random Acts.  Again, not a criticism, because who wouldn't want that gig?  But he's in a different position than Jensen and Jared.

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

True, although fairly or unfairly, I do have more respect for the likes of Sheppard who quit when his character feels spent, or the leads of other shows who opt to end a show rather than allow it to keep going and decline in quality. 

If, as most people seem to agree the show is built around J2 and they leave that means the show ends. Mark Sheppard and anyone else not named J2 can leave for artistic integrity reasons and over 100 people don't lose their jobs.  IMO feel a big responsibility to keep the cast and crew employed so they re-sign. 

[ILoveReading]

Of course none of us knows what goes on behind the scenes but given the general overall bitterness in Mark;s tweets I dont' get the feeling that leaving was entirely Mark's decision. 

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If, as most people seem to agree the show is built around J2 and they leave that means the show ends. Mark Sheppard and anyone else not named J2 can leave for artistic integrity reasons and over 100 people don't lose their jobs.  IMO feel a big responsibility to keep the cast and crew employed so they re-sign. 

This I believe is a big part of the reason why they stay.  They like the work environment on set, job security, and a cast and crew they consider family. 

[DittyDotDot]

You know what I think? When you're 20 years old and single, you think about your career and what you want to accomplish personally when signing contracts. When you're 30 years old, and just married your still thinking about your career, but also thinking about what will make you happy. When you're 35 and have a couple kids, you're not really worried about your career or your own happiness; it's really unimportant in comparison to having steady work you actually enjoy and getting to do it with people you love. I don't really think it's about the money so much as it provides a certain amount of stability for their families they wouldn't have otherwise.

So, yeah, I have a lot of respect for people who know when to take a bow, but I also have great respect for Jared and Jensen in that they take their responsibilities seriously. They aren't just riding the money train, but they show up and work hard, even though they don't have to at this point.

[Myrelle]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I’ve thought both Jared and Jensen have only been in it for the money since at least S8 and S9!

I think Jensen was ready to leave after S8. I remember reading reports that he was unhappy with the writing for Dean after they squandered the Purgatory storyline and this was the time that he, himself, labelled Dean a "guilty cheerleader" in the second half of 8. I think that the order came down from on high to write something for him in S9 that would entice him to stay and that's how and why we got the MOC storyline for him. He was so happy with that storyline and the DemonDean storyline. He still wishes that they would have let DemonDean stay longer and Benny is often cited as one of the characters that he would like to bring back most.

I'm not sure about JP, but he seems pretty happy right now, but Jensen, not so much; so for me this idea that they do everything together and feel the same about everything is a myth. They may talk about things-we now know that they've talked about the end of the show and how they want it to happen(I saw a con video of this) and they've talked to the PTBs about it, but that was the last that I heard about any current contract talks.

My UO is that Jensen is unhappy again with the writing and has been since S11-we again heard them say at cons that everyone had to pitch in to make the end of S11 workable and that they looked at one script and actually had to switch lines in order for it to feel as if their characters were being kept consistent. I don't think he's sorry that he signed on for 10 and 11 because yes, the $ and a growing family were worth it, and they were right in the middle of storyline that he loved for his character. But now I have a feeling that Jensen is again where he was after S8(because of the poor writing and showrunning again-especially where it's concerned Dean from S11 to the present) and he, at least, is holding out on re-signing now. I further believe that, like S9, much in the second half of 13 as regards the writing for Dean will depend on if they want to try and entice him to stay again and/or if it will even work this time. It's possible that they told the PTBs that S14(or maybe even 13) will be their last unless the seasons are shortened so that they can have more time off to be with family and to maybe even be able to take on other roles during their down time, if they want to.

So, to me, doing the shortened seasons would be only doing it for the money. I think they both still care at this point, but only one of them is happy at present. And if an ultimatum has been issued about the shortened seasons, everyone BTS would know whose idea it would more likely have been AKA who originated it and that it could spell the end of the gravy train for everyone-or at least entail deep pay cuts in the writers' room.

So the writing for Dean in the second half is going to say a lot to me about whether the show will be back or not, in any form, and whether they've gotten an answer to their ultimatum yet or not.

And yes, this is all just spec, but I believed Jensen way back in the first season when he said he was very protective of his character and I want to believe that he still is even if the $ and the perks for staying on are too good to pass up.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Myrelle

[ahrtee]

I also think maybe it's just really, *really* wearing to be so down and depressed all the time, even if it's just on screen.  Think about it--you're happy, you've just come back from time with your family (or had a good weekend with friends) and you come in, stand on your mark, shake yourself back into character and...dark, depressed, bottom-of-the barrel.  Then cut, and back to "normal," then back to miserable.  Over and over again.  At least in the early years there were some lighthearted/happy scenes to break the darkness.  But in the last 6 years or so they've been few and far between--more the exception than the rule.  Jensen had said before how some of the particularly powerful/painful scenes have affected him and he had to "walk it off" to get past it--imagine if that were your norm for a 10- or 12-hour shooting day?  Even with breaks in between?  (No, I'm not saying Jared has fewer hard scenes--just that they've been writing Dean  pretty consistently as dark and depressed for years, while Sam is still hopeful and keeps looking for better answers, which would help break up the bad times.  I can't imagine what it would be like for Jared to have to do that every day with his personal issues with depression. )

[gonzosgirrl]

Here's my unpopular, bitter speculation and I'll go on record with it now: I think Dabb is writing toward the end of SPN and that end is going to come with Dean dead. And should the spin-off fly, with Sam moving over as a recurring, Bobby-type character. 

My reasons for believing this are too bitter even for this thread, but that's my prediction and I'm sticking to it. 

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Here's my unpopular, bitter speculation and I'll go on record with it now: I think Dabb is writing toward the end of SPN and that end is going to come with Dean dead. And should the spin-off fly, with Sam moving over as a recurring, Bobby-type character. 

My reasons for believing this are too bitter even for this thread, but that's my prediction and I'm sticking to it. 

The only way that would work is if Jensen wants out and Jared doesn't, and I haven't heard anything like that.  Has anyone else?

I think if they tried that, it would kill the spinoff too, since all the Deangirls would be too pissed to even watch.  JMO.

[catrox14]

I think Jensen manages those dark aspects with humor and on set shenanigans. I wonder though, if he's tired of playing Dean as being a dick, with decreasing redeeming/positive aspects to his character.

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Jensen manages those dark aspects with humor and on set shenanigans. I wonder though, if he's tired of playing Dean as being a dick, with decreasing redeeming/positive aspects to his character.

Oh, IA with this.  He's been doing it for 13 years.  It's just that I think, after 6+ years of increasing "dark aspects" with no lightening in sight, he might be tired, not necessarily of the character (dick or not) but just having to get himself into "dark" mode to play him all the time.  I think Jensen can try to tone down a lot of the words/actions in the script, but in order to get the character right he has to internalize what Dean is thinking/feeling which IMO would be very hard lately.   So maybe what's tiring is not "playing Dean as a dick" but trying to feel his way through the negative emotions to understand them and try to come up with some redeeming/sympathetic aspects while drowning in the character's depression.  I think after all this time, even on-set shenanigans may not be enough to break that up, especially when you have to get right back into the same depressing character once again.  Again, JMO.  

[FlickChick]

Maybe that's why the end scene with Dean yelling at Sam was so true to life. Maybe Jensen let some/all of his anger out. Because I've got to say, I don't recall seeing him act so forcefully before in this show. I think I actually backed up from the TV. I hope this isn't causing any problems for Jensen; but if it is, then perhaps he should end his tenure on Supernatural sooner rather than later. :(

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Maybe that's why the end scene with Dean yelling at Sam was so true to life. Maybe Jensen let some/all of his anger out. Because I've got to say, I don't recall seeing him act so forcefully before in this show. I think I actually backed up from the TV. I hope this isn't causing any problems for Jensen; but if it is, then perhaps he should end his tenure on Supernatural sooner rather than later. :(

I think Jensen found another gear with Dean's anger this time around. I always felt like in the past that Dean TRIED to not be angry or felt guilty about his anger, but this time he's just done IMO. He's letting it fly and IMO directing at the people he is actually angry with and that's Sam and Jack. Maybe that's what so unusual this time around.

He's probably also got some latent anger with Mary and Cas for being dead. Which is a normal part of grief as well.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Maybe that's why the end scene with Dean yelling at Sam was so true to life. Maybe Jensen let some/all of his anger out. Because I've got to say, I don't recall seeing him act so forcefully before in this show. I think I actually backed up from the TV. I hope this isn't causing any problems for Jensen; but if it is, then perhaps he should end his tenure on Supernatural sooner rather than later. :(

I think this why Jensen loved Demon Dean so much.  Because he was care free and not brooding or bogged down with the weight of the world on his shoulders.   I think it was very freeing for Jensen to play a character with a devil may care attitude. 

I do remember Jensen talking about how season 9 was really hard for him to film.  He said Deans' headspace was so dark he couldn't shake it off and he was taking it home with him. It was why he wanted to do the fight scene in  First Born to work off some of it.   He said it got to the point where he recognized he was redlining and asked for a lighter shooting schedule for one ep. \×

So I imagine he probably wasn't thrilled at yet other Dean is depressed story.  Especially one with no real emotional payoff.    He just has to make his character swallow it down again.  So good point it might have been part some frustration on Jensen's part. 

Given the multiple suck it up, your feelings bother me attitude Dean gets most of the time, it really is no wonder Dean was the way he was in The End. 

[ahrtee]

Moved from BvJ thread:

1 hour ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas in a supporting role - not every episode. And if he moves into the bunker I'll be annoyed. 

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas is family. If Jack is living in the bunker then his chosen father better live there too.Besides Cas has been living in the bunker off and on since s11.

50 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Even if he were to move in the bunker Castiel won’t be in every episode. They’d find some reason to write him out be it he’s on an errand, or the brothers are simply out on a case while Castie is back in the bunker. I’d be very surprised if Castiel is in more than the 11 episodes he got last year, 13 at a  push. 

Cas may be family, but so was Bobby.  Where they live doesn't really make that much difference, except for logical reasons--Bobby had his own house/someplace else to live.  Cas doesn't.  Living in the bunker doesn't change his role in the show, and doesn't *require* him to be in every episode. 

No matter how much the fans like/dislike Cas or any of the other characters, there are only two "stars" in this show.  SPN isn't an ensemble cast where people get added and lost and changed and the show goes on as usual.  That doesn't mean that they can't be of major importance to the show.  Supporting characters are what add depth and different perspectives to the stories.  But, no matter how much you may *want* another character to be equal to the Winchesters, they're not and never will be as long as the show remains in this format.  The show can survive the loss of any character *except* the Winchesters (even though it may lose a large number of fans).  Without Sam or Dean, it would be a different show entirely.  

I don't mean this as an insult to any of the actors or fans.  I'm not a "brothers-only" fan, who doesn't want other characters to get in the way.  I've loved almost all the continuing characters (even Lucifer until he continued well past his story expiration date.)   But they got rid of Bobby and Crowley when they'd run out of storylines for them, and to me, it seems like the OTT SLs they keep coming up with for Cas are mostly because they *have* run out of good stories for him and are trying desperately to keep him on for the fans, besides giving the Js added time off.  And judging by the comments I've read, no one is terribly happy with any of Cas's recent SLs, even if for different reasons.   But AFAIK there are no requirements for number of episodes, good storylines or even continued existence of any character *except* Sam and Dean.  JMO.

[Wayward Son]

46 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 AFAIK there are no requirements for number of episodes, good storylines or even continued existence of any character *except* Sam and Dean.  JMO.

I don’t think it’s ever been formally stated but with one exception (Castiel who had 14 appearances in S5) no character has ever gone over 13 appearances. Several have hit the 13 mark (off the top of my head - Castiel in Seasons 10 and 11, Bobby in S7 and Mary last season) or come close (Crowley appeared in 12 episodes of  S10-S12 and Castiel appeared in 11 episodes last year). This strongly suggests to me that there is an upper limit of 13 episodes for any character not named Sam and Dean. Why that is I don’t know. It could simply be a creative choice - they don’t want any character other than one of the two leads for more than that, or it could be a financial issue. The network aren’t willing to pay for more appearances than that, especially to regulars, who I imagine cost considerably more per episode than random guest of the weekend or recurring characters. Whatever the reason it seems obvious to me that there is a 13 episode upper limit and I’d be highly surprised if any character ever exceeds that and that’s what I was saying in my post over in bitch vs Jerk. Whether he lives in the bunker or not his total appearances won’t change.

 

*For clarity in case I’m misusing terms I classify characters as. 

 

The Leads = Sam and Dean 

Series Regulars = Those with formal contracts with the show and are given a “Starring” credit for the episodes they appear in. This season that would be Jack, Lucifer and Castiel. Crowley had this status for S10-12 and Ruby and Bella had it in S3. 

Recurring Characters = Those who appear in multiple episodes of the show, but haven’t got contracts and are billed as guest stars when they appear. This would include the likes of Bobby (I believe Jim was offered regular status but declined preferring to remain flexible and not tied to a contract), Mary, Jody etc. 

One off characters = They’re just that. Those who only appear the once usually the victim of the week or a local coroner etc. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

My guess is the "13" is based entirely on budget.  It's almost like a tiered system.  The J's do 23, others (Cas, Crowley, Lucifer & Mary) do roughly 13 and then still others (Rowena, Jody, Donna) do 2 or 3.  And then you have your one-off guest stars.  IMO, it's all about the money.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I don’t think it’s ever been formally stated but with one exception (Castiel who had 14 appearances in S5) no character has ever gone over 13 appearances. Several have hit the 13 mark (off the top of my head - Castiel in Seasons 10 and 11, Bobby in S7 and Mary last season) or come close (Crowley appeared in 12 episodes of  S10-S12)  This strongly suggests to me that there is an upper limit of 13 episodes for any character not named Sam and Dean. Why that is I don’t know. It could simply be a creative choice - they don’t want any character other than one of the two leads for more than that, or it could be a financial issue. The network aren’t willing to pay for more appearances than that especially to regulars, who I imagine cost considerably more per episode than random guest of the weekend or recurring characters. Whatever the reason it seems obvious to me that there is a 13 episode upper limit and I’d be highly surprised if any character ever exceeds that and that’s what I was saying in my post over in bitch vs Jerk. Whether he lives in the bunker or not his total appearances won’t change.

Sorry if I misunderstood.  It seemed to me that you were unhappy at the limited number of episodes that Cas appears in.  

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

My guess is the "13" is based entirely on budget.  It's almost like a tiered system.  The J's do 23, others (Cas, Crowley, Lucifer & Mary) do roughly 13 and then still others (Rowena, Jody, Donna) do 2 or 3.  And then you have your one-off guest stars.  IMO, it's all about the money.

I think so too. We will know after this season, but I wouldn’t be surprised if 11 appearances becomes Cas/Misha’s new normal. It seems that last year he (and his agent) managed to negotiate for the “And” credit (which is supposed to be a big deal) and I wouldn’t be surprised if that came with a higher per episode wage, which the network balanced out by taking two episodes off him. So Misha would be getting (as an example I have no clue of his actual wage) $100,000 for 11 episodes instead of $100,000 for 13 episodes. 

 

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry if I misunderstood.  It seemed to me that you were unhappy at the limited number of episodes that Cas appears in.  

Well, I am a major Cas fan so of course I’d love him in more episodes, but in this particular instance I was talking about the practicalities of the show rather than expressing any bitterness :) 

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Well, I am a major Cas fan so of course I’d love him in more episodes, but in this particular instance I was talking about the practicalities of the show rather than expressing any bitterness :) 

Well, it was in the "bitterness" thread! :)

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, it was in the "bitterness" thread! :)

Fair enough. I just replied there because I was responding to the original poster who had made their post in that thread. I was just trying to point out that even if he did move into the bunker Cas wouldn’t appear in every episode. He’d be written out via methods such as a quick mention of “Cas is off dealing with such and such” or the brothers would be on the road while Cas is back at the bunker. Sorry for the confusion. 

[Res]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Moved from BvJ thread:

Cas may be family, but so was Bobby.  Where they live doesn't really make that much difference, except for logical reasons--Bobby had his own house/someplace else to live.  Cas doesn't.  Living in the bunker doesn't change his role in the show, and doesn't *require* him to be in every episode. 

No matter how much the fans like/dislike Cas or any of the other characters, there are only two "stars" in this show.  SPN isn't an ensemble cast where people get added and lost and changed and the show goes on as usual.  That doesn't mean that they can't be of major importance to the show.  Supporting characters are what add depth and different perspectives to the stories.  But, no matter how much you may *want* another character to be equal to the Winchesters, they're not and never will be as long as the show remains in this format.  The show can survive the loss of any character *except* the Winchesters (even though it may lose a large number of fans).  Without Sam or Dean, it would be a different show entirely.  

I don't mean this as an insult to any of the actors or fans.  I'm not a "brothers-only" fan, who doesn't want other characters to get in the way.  I've loved almost all the continuing characters (even Lucifer until he continued well past his story expiration date.)   But they got rid of Bobby and Crowley when they'd run out of storylines for them, and to me, it seems like the OTT SLs they keep coming up with for Cas are mostly because they *have* run out of good stories for him and are trying desperately to keep him on for the fans, besides giving the Js added time off.  And judging by the comments I've read, no one is terribly happy with any of Cas's recent SLs, even if for different reasons.   But AFAIK there are no requirements for number of episodes, good storylines or even continued existence of any character *except* Sam and Dean.  JMO.

I understand what you are saying here but it was my impression lately that they are trying to move to a more ensemble cast so that they can give the Js more and more negotiated time off as the Js understandably want to spend more and more time with their young families. While I completely support them in this (your children only have their first steps once, etc.), I am not at all interested in that type of show. So I guess what I'm trying to say is even though this is the current set up, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

[Jeddah]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think so too. We will know after this season, but I wouldn’t be surprised if 11 appearances becomes Cas/Misha’s new normal. It seems that last year he (and his agent) managed to negotiate for the “And” credit (which is supposed to be a big deal) and I wouldn’t be surprised if that came with a higher per episode wage, which the network balanced out by taking two episodes off him. So Misha would be getting (as an example I have no clue of his actual wage) $100,000 for 11 episodes instead of $100,000 for 13 episodes. 

I hope he’s in more. If simply appearing counts, then he’s already been in 4 episodes. It seems like such a waste if just lying dead on a table, waking up, and  turning around take up 3 of his 11 episodes.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Jeddah said:

I hope he’s in more. If simply appearing counts, then he’s already been in 4 episodes. It seems like such a waste if just lying dead on a table, waking up, and  turning around take up 3 of his 11 episodes.

Yeah, I’m hoping it’ll be the full 13 since we’ve already wasted 3 episodes on one scene non speaking roles, but sadly I’m expecting the worst :( 

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, Res said:

I understand what you are saying here but it was my impression lately that they are trying to move to a more ensemble cast so that they can give the Js more and more negotiated time off as the Js understandably want to spend more and more time with their young families. While I completely support them in this (your children only have their first steps once, etc.), I am not at all interested in that type of show. So I guess what I'm trying to say is even though this is the current set up, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

IA they're trying to give the Js more time off and therefore are expanding the roles of what would otherwise be "supporting" characters, but I think we're both saying that it wouldn't work, for us, at least.  I said that it would be an entirely different show, not the one we've been watching for 13 years, and you said you're not interested in it.  Maybe it's my definition of "ensemble" that's wrong:  I tend to think of it as "separate-but-equal" storylines where all the characters are in the same 'verse but have their own stories that may intersect, but the main focus alternates between all the members of the cast.  On SPN so far, the few times that they did try to give alternating SLs to other characters (aside from an occasional one-off like Weekend at Bobby's) it hasn't held the viewer's interest, at least, judging by the comments I've read.  Consider Lucifer's SL at the beginning of s.12, or Cas and the angel wars.   Even with interesting setups and interesting characters, IMO the audience still wants Sam and Dean to be the focus.  So if  they add more characters and rewrite it as an ensemble show (eg, adding a school for hunters where Sam and Dean drop by but aren't really connected) it wouldn't be SPN any more, even if the boys still have an occasional hunt on their own;  and they'll probably lose many of the longtime viewers.  That's why WS is a separate spinoff and not just standalone episodes incorporated into SPN (and so it can continue once the Js quit for good).  So I think we may be seeing less screen time of the Js when they want time off, but they'll still be the focus, because that's what the viewers want out of *this* show.  Again, JMO.  

[Res]

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So I think we may be seeing less screen time of the Js when they want time off, but they'll still be the focus, because that's what the viewers want out of *this* show.  Again, JMO.  

I know that's the only reason I watch. Lord knows, it's NOT for the atrocious writing, Lucifer, Mary or any of the other cast members, except Cas. That's the reason that I'm glad others are getting the Wayward Sisters spin-off, the ones that love Jodi, Donna, Alex and Claire, because while I can tolerate some of them with the brothers and am okay with others with the brothers, I don't care about any of them enough to watch a show of them. So now everyone gets what they want. 

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Res said:

while I can tolerate some of them with the brothers and am okay with others with the brothers, I don't care about any of them enough to watch a show of them.

Yes! I feel exactly the same way. I doubt that I'll even watch the spinoff unless one of the J's makes an appearance.

[Wayward Son]

I personally think a big problem with Cas and Crowleys independent storylines is the fact they insist on having them around angels and demons all the time. I’ve been a long term advocate of human Cas with other human allies for the simple fact that with only a few exceptions the angels and demons are quite boring. The vast majority of the shows beloved characters are the human ones. Imagine how much better it could have been if instead of endless throne room scenes for Crowley or Cas and Hannah wandering the country those times were spent on them interacting with the likes of Bobby, Ellen, Kevin, Jody, Donna etc.  

[Res]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes! I feel exactly the same way. I doubt that I'll even watch the spinoff unless one of the J's makes an appearance.

I also would love, LOVE, I tell ya, for Lucifer, Spawn and Mary to have a spin-off and for Dabb to go write it. I'd even donate to a kickstart for it and advocate for Yockey to take over!

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Res said:

I also would love, LOVE, I tell ya, for Lucifer, Spawn and Mary to have a spin-off and for Dabb to go write it. I'd even donate to a kickstart for it and advocate for Yockey to take over!

Here’s a scary thought.. BuckLemming are next in line to take over if Dabb leaves and the spin off is taken over by Berens. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Here’s a scary thought.. BuckLemming are next in line to take over if Dabb leaves and the spin off is taken over by Berens. 

Meh, I don't think they want to be showrunners. Carver came back rather than Dabb taking over for Sera when she left. So it's not a given they would be showrunners anyway.

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I personally think a big problem with Cas and Crowleys independent storylines is the fact they insist on having them around angels and demons all the time. I’ve been a long term advocate of human Cas with other human allies for the simple fact that with only a few exceptions the angels and demons are quite boring. The vast majority of the shows beloved characters are the human ones. Imagine how much better it could have been if instead of endless throne room scenes for Crowley or Cas and Hannah wandering the country those times were spent on them interacting with the likes of Bobby, Ellen, Kevin, Jody, Donna etc.  

It would have been much better IMO. I am beyond sick of random angels popping up just to berate Cas for ruining Heaven and trying to kill him.

[companionenvy]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I personally think a big problem with Cas and Crowleys independent storylines is the fact they insist on having them around angels and demons all the time. I’ve been a long term advocate of human Cas with other human allies for the simple fact that with only a few exceptions the angels and demons are quite boring. The vast majority of the shows beloved characters are the human ones. Imagine how much better it could have been if instead of endless throne room scenes for Crowley or Cas and Hannah wandering the country those times were spent on them interacting with the likes of Bobby, Ellen, Kevin, Jody, Donna etc.  

I wish I could like this more than once. I agree completely -- I don't actually think the problem is that Castiel couldn't hold viewers' attention for a decent-sized subplot. It is that the subplots they give him are mostly really bad. 

I would love to occasionally have Cas B-plots that aren't tied to turgid angelic politics OR to the parts of the season arc too boring for the Winchesters to have to deal with week after week (i.e, the Winchesters can't just ignore Lucifer or Luci-spawn, so let's pop in on Cas looking for Satan/Kelly once every couple of episodes). Like, it would be much more interesting to me to see Cas on a case of his own. I don't think that would have to take away from Sam and Dean; they would still have the "A" plot. But it might make me not want to turn off the TV whenever Cas is around without a Winchester. And I'm someone who likes Cas. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Like, it would be much more interesting to me to see Cas on a case of his own.

I liked the scenes of Cas & Crowley working a case together. I think that Mark had good chemistry with Misha.

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Meh, I don't think they want to be showrunners. Carver came back rather than Dabb taking over for Sera when she left. So it's not a given they would be showrunners anyway.

True, but short of bringing back a former writer (something we can’t forsee) they’re the most likely option if Wayward is also picked up. We’ve been told the episode writing order is generally based on seniority. I’d say this means at the moment its

 

- Dabb (Show Runner)

- Berens (He also seems set to show run the spin off if it’s picked up since he’s writingvall the related eps this season) 

- BuckLemming 

 

Then the rest of the staff are only on their second year with the show. 

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Here’s a scary thought.. BuckLemming are next in line to take over if Dabb leaves and the spin off is taken over by Berens. 

WHY?!?!?!? Why would even put that out there in the world? Take it back. Take it back right now!!! ;)

I think if Dabb leaves, Berens would be my vote, but it seems like they might be grooming him for Wayward Sisters right now. TBH, I think if Dabb leaves, they would have to bring in someone from the outside or fold it in. Everyone else is too new or like Singer and the Horrible Duo who doesn't want the entire kit-n-caboodle to run day-to-day; they just want to yell at the players from the sidelines from time to time. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by DittyDotDot
Because in my shock and awe, I quoted the wrong post.

[Bobcatkitten]

If they wrap the series up with a half season 14 I would give anything for Kripke to come back. 

[Res]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Here’s a scary thought.. BuckLemming are next in line to take over if Dabb leaves and the spin off is taken over by Berens. 

That's scarier than any thriller out there! Why? WHY?!! Would you even think this?!! We are DOOMED! DOOOOMMMEDDD, I tell ya!

LOLOLOL!

Although, honestly, I'm not sure they could do any worse than Dabb is currently doing.

[Airmid]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I wish I could like this more than once. I agree completely -- I don't actually think the problem is that Castiel couldn't hold viewers' attention for a decent-sized subplot. It is that the subplots they give him are mostly really bad. 

I would love to occasionally have Cas B-plots that aren't tied to turgid angelic politics OR to the parts of the season arc too boring for the Winchesters to have to deal with week after week (i.e, the Winchesters can't just ignore Lucifer or Luci-spawn, so let's pop in on Cas looking for Satan/Kelly once every couple of episodes). Like, it would be much more interesting to me to see Cas on a case of his own. I don't think that would have to take away from Sam and Dean; they would still have the "A" plot. But it might make me not want to turn off the TV whenever Cas is around without a Winchester. And I'm someone who likes Cas. 

 

So  much this. I have zero problems with a long term character having a sub-plot that ties into the season and gets screen time. I do have a problem when it's an uncreative rehash of plot lines that refuse to die or focused on characters that just don't deserve such a thing because they haven't earned that with the audience or story as a whole. 

Cas should have never died at the end of last season. I don't care what they do at this point with his character - it was ruined for me when he died for zero reason as a long term character with deep ties to the main protags and then overshadowed by all the other events. It felt pointless, like the writers/showrunner wanted big things to happen and mistook crap shock value as good drama. That's not even touching on making Dean go through even more endless grief over something he had no control over. I mean, how many times has he been forced to watch Cas die now? Talk about trauma.

And that's on top of the endless 'angels are all dicks all the time' view point with any interesting angels being murdered before they can do much. Remember Benjamin? That was the angel who was playing video games at the start of Lily Sanders and Cas mentions that she loved her vessel. Do we get to know her? Nope. Naomi gets a view of how angels have failed to the point where she's weeping and what happens to her? She gets a dentist drill to the skull. Samandriel had an air of innocence and not only do we have to watch him pointlessly tortured by beings that shouldn't be able to do all that (or be so comfortable about torturing something that could kill them instantly if he got out) but was murdered as soon as he was free and starting to spill info. 

Add this to the concept of hell as some dull warehouse with demon politics spouted by minions in matching dull suits and I just don't care. I would be highly wary of any sub-plot that was given significant amount of time that involved Cas because of past history of them just being bad and/or poorly handled in many ways. 

There are some episodes like Weekend at Bobby's that I really, really like that focus on side characters that are entertaining, serve to develop other people in the universe and help to establish relationships and/or plot elements. But then we have all kinds of other episodes like Bitten, that was boring at best, or back door pilots like Bloodlines that was just stupid and couldn't even show monsters as they existed in this universe. It's like they focus on all the wrong things by trying to do these kinds of episodes. Instead of developing an interesting sub-plot with interesting characters with the J's playing support and getting some much needed time off without it feeling like that, we get turgid recycled plots and I'm just tired.

Of course, I also have the UO that the AU should have been actual Paradise instead of another war torn universe with angels as assholes and humans not far off from that themselves. I'd rather see the temptation of giving up free will in exchange for peace and lack of violence or having to carry such a heavy weight as Dean and Sam do. I really, really dislike the use of mutli-universe plots, especially when they pop up in long running shows. Ones like Fringe have them established from the get go and I'm able to work with it. But the whole idea of a multi-verse here, for me personally, is just off putting. It raises so many questions without satisfying answers for me and it just leaves me not wanting to watch at all. I still wouldn't have been happy with the idea as a whole, but I would have been more interested if they went a completely different route instead of the tired version of a destroyed earth.

As always, YMMV and this is just my opinion.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't actually think the problem is that Castiel couldn't hold viewers' attention for a decent-sized subplot. It is that the subplots they give him are mostly really bad. 

I thought a good portion of the side quests has potential. In fact, during Season 6, Cas` plot was actually the main mytharc, they just kept that a secret for roughly 21 out of 22 (or 23?) episodes which made it annoying. The fight against Raphael, trying to find a new powersource in Purgatory would have been interesting to me, I just wanted the brothers IN that plot. And not unknowingly and unwittingly for 98 % of the Season. For a portion in the beginning, fair, but not the entire year.

Then the fallen angels could have been a really cool set-up. Just really involve the brothers in the angelic civil war and give it more breathing room. 

The last few years, Cas` plots have been iffy - like, last year was profoundly stupid whereas the Lucifer thing in Season 11 at least had some potential. But for me the reason his side stories overall did not work is the way they were told. You could have the coolest story ever but if it plays out largely in the background, with the occasional very special episodes or screentime devoted to it and therefore supporting characters who never grown beyond bland ciphers, it won`t play well. 

Angels and demons didn`t need to become replaceable goon characters per se but if you use them for lazy shorthand writing, no wonder you kill any potential that could have been there. Other genre shows have not run as long as this one (smarter, IMO) but they still managed to keep supernatural characters interesting and vital far beyond one or two Seasons of introduction. 

Personally I like Cas as a supernatural entity and wouldn`t have particularly cared for it if he started interacting mainly with humans. Because it`s not like those get written better. Bobby`s tired "idjits" shtick annoyed me just as much as the first time I read a casting call for the description of "goon angel".    

[Bobcatkitten]

Sorry I posted in the wrong thread earlier about Castiel living in the bunker. 

I just don't want this show to turn into some ensemble cast with everyone living together and whacky hijinx etc. It's not Friends or ER. It is at its heart about the brothers and I want that to continue to be the primary focus. Having them all live together I think would take away from that. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy Cas - just in limited doses. As far as Jack I'm ambivalent now because he's essentially a toddler. He couldn't live on his own. But he and Cas could move out together :)

[Res]

My UO is that the show used to be about heart, courage and determination to do things right, save people. Now it's more about drama and the soap opera of supernatural beings, like Lucifer and the Spawn.

[Commando Cody]

I love Jack.

I think he's a moody teenager right now, but I like the character. 

I don't like the new, temporary, demon runner. He's not Crowley. He'll never be Crowley. And by Crowley, I mean a character that people actually like to see (in limited doses for most). I just want this guy permanently gone. 

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I love Jack.

I think he's a moody teenager right now, but I like the character. 

I don't like the new, temporary, demon runner. He's not Crowley. He'll never be Crowley. And by Crowley, I mean a character that people actually like to see (in limited doses for most). I just want this guy permanently gone. 

Agreed on both counts! I was beginning to think I was the only one who liked Jack! 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Agreed on both counts! I was beginning to think I was the only one who liked Jack! 

Does it make you feel better if I just say I don't dislike Jack? 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Does it make you feel better if I just say I don't dislike Jack? 

Welcome to the Jack club 

 

-passes icecream (or whatever treat it is you like)

[Pondlass1]

I think the appeal is the actor.  Not only is he better than the writing.. He bears a strong resemblance to a 'young' Castiel which would appeal to those fans.