Gimme That Old Time Religion

[cmr2014]

I don't really think there's anything too odd going on in there -- I assume that the Dillards and Seewalds have been there, and haven't run away screaming.

 

I think that the windows are covered for privacy -- having leg-humpers come and stare through the window may have gotten unnerving. Personally, I think they have their own "church" for two reasons:

 

1. Money. I don't know if their sect believes in tithing, but I bet JB doesn't want to give 10% of his money to any church but his own. They were, of course, more than happy to take "love offerings" from their church when they were poor, but they don't seem super-excited about paying that forward.

 

2. Duggar-time. I don't think they have the interest -- or the ability -- to get the whole family out of bed and ready for church on time. It's just easier to have everyone schlep on over to the warehouse whenever they get themselves together.

[DoctorWhovian]

They also have their own church for tax purposes (churches are tax exempt). I'm not a tax lawyer, but I believe it will allow them to write off the taxes on at least part of their land and probably write off some of their expenses as church expenses. (My dad runs his business out of our home, so part of our internet cost and his work line are business expenses, as well as a portion of our home and related expenses that are used as the office.)

[Barb23]

They think they are too high & mighty to attend a regular church and have to have their own. Yet when they need a big auditorium for one of their special events (wedding/funeral) they head to Cross Church & are welcomed with open arms (it seems) because they are the Duggars & they have 19 children.

[NausetGirl]

1. Money. I don't know if their sect believes in tithing, but I bet JB doesn't want to give 10% of his money to any church but his own. They were, of course, more than happy to take "love offerings" from their church when they were poor, but they don't seem super-excited about paying that forward.

 

2. Duggar-time. I don't think they have the interest -- or the ability -- to get the whole family out of bed and ready for church on time. It's just easier to have everyone schlep on over to the warehouse whenever they get themselves together.

 

Well, I must admit, these two reasons are completely believable - can easily see both of them being true.

Edited December 28, 2014 by NausetGirl

[Sew Sumi]

I am floored by this information. Is this Swanson dude affiliated with the Duggars, do you know? I would hate to think that they are that crazy. Sometimes I think it should be possible to sue for religious guidance malpractice.

Not sure. He was affiliated with Doug Phillips, who the Duggars followed pretty faithfully; he was second to Gothard. His Vision Forum ministry gave Mechelle the first of those Mother of the Year awards she received after giving birth to a micro-premie. They even made a "Thank You Michelle" video to commemorate the day. 

 

Bin has quoted the guy on Instagram. HE knows that Swanson exists. Their world is actually quite small, so I'm sure the Duggars are aware of both him and Scott Brown who is a bigshot in the fundamentalist homeschool movement. 

[Absolom]

The Duggars meet in a warehouse building that Jim Bob bought or rents.  They won't/can't get tax deductions unless they file to become an official church which the last time people checked they had not.  An invitation only church is truly very strange and seems to me another control freak aspect of Jim Bob.  There are any number of local churches they could attend.

[floridamom]

I believe I read somewhere that the Duggar church is on their property where they live; it's one of their "out buildings". They have a security gate at the entrance to their property with a camera and buzzer system to let visitors in. So, there is not reason to black out the windows of their worship building. The uninvited public can't even access the property without being "buzzed in".

[lookeyloo]

I believe I read somewhere that the Duggar church is on their property where they live; it's one of their "out buildings". They have a security gate at the entrance to their property with a camera and buzzer system to let visitors in. So, there is not reason to black out the windows of their worship building. The uninvited public can't even access the property without being "buzzed in".

Unless they manage to get pictures with those super duper big lenses the paparazzi use.

[GEML]

I've spent my life in an enormous variety of evangelical and fundamentalist churches (and I do mean enormous variety) and EVERY SINGLE ONE) practices communion in some form at least once a year. In some it is called the love feast and incorporated into a broader tradition but is still practiced. But the ritual of forgiveness, wine/juice and bread are all part of it.

[floridamom]

I see your "paparazzi lens" point, lookeyloo, but why would the Duggars care much about the public, who are heathens and need "saving by them" mind if some photographs were taken of them during their worship service? If you look at their home, those big giant picture windows seldom have any shades pulled even at night.

My guess would be $$$$, yes $$$$ yet again. Any and all photos that I have seen of the Duggars were ones in which they are paid for in some manner. I think they don't want anything "out there' that they aren't fully aware of themselves and didn't commission. Makes me sick to think of that, but it's quite possible.

[Absolom]

I don't think the "church" building is on their property.  Their address is widely known and easily available.  People have to email to get the address along with permission to attend.  They have moved church several times as the congregation (used loosely) has grown.

[mbutterfly]

On one of the threads there is discussion that in some churches there are classes for engaged women in how to get the adoring look and manner toward future husbands. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of any woman in the Bible who modeled such behavior. I can think of a single person. Do they teach "Be like . . . ." and I'm missing it? The closest I can think of is Ruth, with Naomi. I'm certain they don't want to model after Ruth with Boaz, pre-marriage. Seriously, is there a Biblical model for these young women? 

[NausetGirl]

On one of the threads there is discussion that in some churches there are classes for engaged women in how to get the adoring look and manner toward future husbands. I've been wracking my brain trying to think of any woman in the Bible who modeled such behavior. I can think of a single person. Do they teach "Be like . . . ." and I'm missing it? The closest I can think of is Ruth, with Naomi. I'm certain they don't want to model after Ruth with Boaz, pre-marriage. Seriously, is there a Biblical model for these young women? 

 

I'm not a Bible scholar in any way, shape or form.  But I'd say no, there isn't.  There is, however, is a Gothard model.  And I'm guessing Momma Gothard had longish, wavy hair.

[3girlsforus]

I agree with Nausetgirl. There is nothing Biblical about any of this. It's all about Gothard and other power-hungry men using religion to control their families. 

[NausetGirl]

I agree with Nausetgirl. There is nothing Biblical about any of this. It's all about Gothard and other power-hungry men using religion to control their families. 

 

Let's add "insecure" in front of "power-hungry" and we're good to go.

[floridamom]

Gee, if one has to "apply" to attend a Duggar church service, I would think it's more like a performance than a worship service, which is always open to all. I also don't think the Seewald's just "happened to drive over for church", 4 hours away, so Ben could "casually" run in to Jessa and "get introduced" to her. They knew all along that they Seewalds would be attending. No surprise to the Duggars then.

Also, the concept of a "HOME church" is that it is in your HOME, not various buildings that you own. Then, they don't have a home church. They simply are Christian renegades and run their own show with no "accountability" from the Baptist church authorities to approve and validate their services as being Independent Baptist? Would that be right? I admit, I am not familiar with the Baptist faith and their associates.

[floridamom]

This, of course, is my opinion, I am not judging them into eternity. Please, don't jump all over me for this post. Thanks guys.

[mbutterfly]

This, of course, is my opinion, I am not judging them into eternity. Please, don't jump all over me for this post. Thanks guys.

I think a lot of us would like to have a better understanding. 

[Mrsjumbo]

They think they are too high & mighty to attend a regular church and have to have their own. Yet when they need a big auditorium for one of their special events (wedding/funeral) they head to Cross Church & are welcomed with open arms (it seems) because they are the Duggars & they have 19 children.

Yes, this is what I thought. If they have their own "church", why did Cross Church & First Baptist churches ok their having the weddings there? That wouldn't fly in the Catholic Church, you have to be a parishioner there. And if not, get permission showing you are a parishioner in another Catholic Church.

[Sew Sumi]

I believe I read somewhere that the Duggar church is on their property where they live; it's one of their "out buildings". They have a security gate at the entrance to their property with a camera and buzzer system to let visitors in. So, there is not reason to black out the windows of their worship building. The uninvited public can't even access the property without being "buzzed in".

No, they moved their "church" to a larger warehouse off the compound closer to the airport, which Boob said was a more centralized location for the regulars. Church attendance is by invitation only, although the Seewalds got themselves in somehow. They claim to have met the Duggars years ago...I doubt Boob and MEchelle remember that. The most likely scenario is that they have mutual acquaintances that the Seewalds called upon to gain entrance.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[msblossom]

Yes, evangelical churches, and really any denomination (or non-denomination) "lower" (in terms of liturgy) than say the Methodists generally do not serve communion every service.  As stated above, the frequency of it varies, but most do it at least 4 times a year, and then maybe also on holidays and during Lent.  My own denomination expects ministers to administer the sacrament once every quarter, but ministers and congregations can choose to do it more often if they like.  My own congregation does it at least once a month.

 

On the few occasions that we've done it more than one week in a row for some reason, our pastor tells me he gets complaints that we're doing  it "too often" and becoming "too Catholic."  Because heaven forbid!

Rhondinella,

I attend a SB church and they serve communion at every service each week, which I love. It's the only church I've ever attended to serve communion more than once a month. We get up and go forward for communion and they tear the bread loaf in half, then each person tears off a piece of the bread and dips it in the chalice of juice or wine -- whatever your conscience permits (the wine is marked by twine tied onto the chalice). It's not a rushed process at all. It's a large part of the service to remember that Christ's body was broken and his blood was spilled out for the forgiveness of sin. I believe we can never be reminded too often and a beautiful thing to meditate on each week.

[Sew Sumi]

Poking around YouTube, I found this old clip from a special. Talk about Christmas trees commences around the 2:45 mark. Bottom line, they bought one. 

 

[msblossom]

Okay so the Duggars aren't theologically opposed to Christmas trees -- and the reason they don't have one this year is bc its dangerous with little kids? I wonder if they've had accidents in past years with the little kids getting crazy and it fell over.

I liked the idea of replanting the potted tree outdoors after Christmas, but I would guess you'd only be able to keep it indoors for about a week before the needles dry out with all the heat, even with all the watering. I wonder if the Duggars replanted Christmas tree survived?

[Barb23]

It breaks my heart to see Jana carrying the baby (?Jackson) out of the house in the carrier/car seat with what looks like the diaper bag slung over her arm when they went to get the tree. I'm sure she had to pack the bag too. What is that girl made of? She sewed prairie outfits for her sisters & I'm sure she still had her jurisdictions to do.

[msblossom]

As for the Happy Birthday Jesus! thing, it's not unique to the Duggars.  Although not mainstream perhaps it's not uncommon among evangelicals and even some more moderate Christians, at least when they have young kids.  It's usually done with the kids in mind.  I don't know any grown adults who do birthday parties for Jesus just by themselves.  I personally think it's really twee, and have always avoided it like the plague, although there isn't anything technically wrong with it, I suppose.

I do think the Duggars do this to help their children remember that amidst all the commercialism, that for the Christian it boils down to the birth of Christ as our reason for celebrating Christmas. Is it over the top? Yeah, maybe, but that's their slice of Christmas, and if that's what's being offered to me, then I politely respond with "No thank you."

As an evangelical Christian, myself, I haven't celebrated Christmas in this manner. I really only know of one family who did and it was because their daughter was small and they wanted to emphasize that it was Christ's birth and His reason for coming to the world that they were celebrating besides it being all about Santa, Rudolph, Christmas presents, etc. They wanted their daughters to remember the first Christmas. I recall for a few years that it included a cake they made and read a bit of the Christmas story from the Bible. It wasn't strange or weird, just an age appropriate family tradition that their kids now recall with fondness.

I think there are other ways this can be done and one way of doing it is not necessarily better than the other -- just different. When I was growing up it was advent. With advent candles, scripture reading and the advent calendar -- it's a tradition my husband and I continue to do bc it does keep us focussed on what Christmas is all about. Our church does this as well, and we continue doing the readings thru Lent.

[Rhondinella]

If they have their own "church", why did Cross Church & First Baptist churches ok their having the weddings there? That wouldn't fly in the Catholic Church, you have to be a parishioner there. And if not, get permission showing you are a parishioner in another Catholic Church.

 

 

At least in my part of the country, I know there are Protestant churches that do allow their buildings to be used for weddings by non-parishioners--for a fee. Parishioners either get to use it for free or for a reduced price.  Of course, there may be other rules and regulations about whether the minister of a certain congregation will agree to marry you or not; it's often common for you to be required to do pre-marital counseling with the minister before he/she will perform the ceremony, but not all Protestant denominations are opposed to non-members marrying in their churches. 

 

I attend a SB church and they serve communion at every service each week, which I love. It's the only church I've ever attended to serve communion more than once a month. We get up and go forward for communion and they tear the bread loaf in half, then each person tears off a piece of the bread and dips it in the chalice of juice or wine -- whatever your conscience permits (the wine is marked by twine tied onto the chalice). It's not a rushed process at all. It's a large part of the service to remember that Christ's body was broken and his blood was spilled out for the forgiveness of sin. I believe we can never be reminded too often and a beautiful thing to meditate on each week.

 

 

Wow!  I'm impressed that you've found a SB congregation that does this!  And that even allows the choice of actual wine!  There are congregations in my denomination that may have services in addition to the "normal" one on Sunday morning that do the Eucharist each week and are of a much higher liturgical nature (often adapting material from the Angelican Book of Common Prayer).  They are usually called "Word and Table" services, or some such, but they rarely are the "main" or most heavily attended services in these churches.  But it does allow that option for people who prefer a more strictly liturgical structure to their worship.

[3girlsforus]

I do think the Duggars do this to help their children remember that amidst all the commercialism, that for the Christian it boils down to the birth of Christ as our reason for celebrating Christmas. Is it over the top? Yeah, maybe, but that's their slice of Christmas, and if that's what's being offered to me, then I politely respond with "No thank you."

As an evangelical Christian, myself, I haven't celebrated Christmas in this manner. I really only know of one family who did and it was because their daughter was small and they wanted to emphasize that it was Christ's birth and His reason for coming to the world that they were celebrating besides it being all about Santa, Rudolph, Christmas presents, etc. They wanted their daughters to remember the first Christmas. I recall for a few years that it included a cake they made and read a bit of the Christmas story from the Bible. It wasn't strange or weird, just an age appropriate family tradition that their kids now recall with fondness.

I think there are other ways this can be done and one way of doing it is not necessarily better than the other -- just different. When I was growing up it was advent. With advent candles, scripture reading and the advent calendar -- it's a tradition my husband and I continue to do bc it does keep us focussed on what Christmas is all about. Our church does this as well, and we continue doing the readings thru Lent.

 

We did a Happy Birthday Jesus a few times when the kids were young. It started when my middle one was about 4 and she was appalled that it was Jesus' birthday and there wasn't a birthday cake. To a four year old you make birthday cake when you are celebrating a birthday. I didn't have a problem with it. Eventually it just kind of faded away as the kids got older. 

[msblossom]

Wow! I'm impressed that you've found a SB congregation that does this! And that even allows the choice of actual wine! There are congregations in my denomination that may have services in addition to the "normal" one on Sunday morning that do the Eucharist each week and are of a much higher liturgical nature (often adapting material from the Angelican Book of Common Prayer). They are usually called "Word and Table" services, or some such, but they rarely are the "main" or most heavily attended services in these churches. But it does allow that option for people who prefer a more strictly liturgical structure to their worship.

I actually really enjoy a more liturgical structure in the worship. Our church is not the norm in SB circles, our services have congregational readings and shared responses. And the church structure itself is an old Catholic Church that sat empty for 20 years downtown. The church spent a lot of money to bring it back to it's former glory and it's in a multi-racial part of town and a lot of the folks in the neghborhood attend which is cool. The congregation represents what I imagine heaven will be like: a group of people of different races worshipping together.

Yeah, there's no rule in our church (and more importantly, the Bible) against alcohol. Our pastor is not a teetotaler, and is a fan of good bourbon and craft beer. :)

Edited December 29, 2014 by msblossom

[GEML]

Most Baptist churches, including southern Baptists, refuse to have the strong hierarchies of denominations such as Methodists, Epuscopals or Catholics, etc. That's part of what makes them Baptists - their individual church/Deacon led culture.

They do have some larger community for broad guidelines of common belief, issues dealing with missions, hymn book changes, and some core doctrinal issues (which almost always lead to some churches leaving when these change) but they have no bishops or superintendents or cardinals or other position higher than that of senior pastor at the local level.

[msblossom]

Our SB church is not congregationally led. We do not vote on finances, missions, color of paint, etc. As members, we vote only for elders. We are governed as you said, by a board of Elders (Bishops/Pastors), not Deacons. Deacons in our church do not function as Elders. As members, we attend meetings re; finances, missions, problems that may be related to a pastoral staff member or Elder.

[Barb23]

At least in my part of the country, I know there are Protestant churches that do allow their buildings to be used for weddings by non-parishioners--for a fee. Parishioners either get to use it for free or for a reduced price.  Of course, there may be other rules and regulations about whether the minister of a certain congregation will agree to marry you or not; it's often common for you to be required to do pre-marital counseling with the minister before he/she will perform the ceremony, but not all Protestant denominations are opposed to non-members marrying in their churches. 

I am Methodist & our church charges a fee for weddings of non-members. I don't know what the fees are. Our Church is colonial in architecture & can hold a good crowd. One of our past ministers said that was the reason they get many requests. There is also a small very old chapel that holds about 30 people on the church property too that draws people. My sister had her second wedding there & it was very nice. Thirty years ago, as a parishioner, I didn't have to pay for use of church, but gave a gratuity to the minister. There is pre-marriage counseling for any couple that marries in our church. It is done in a group setting meeting weekly for a few weeks. The ministers lead the group, not various in-laws & they are held at the church, not in a yogurt shop. (Ha-ha)

By the way, we have Communion on the first Sunday of every month, with grape juice. Ms Blossom, I like the way your church gives you the choice of wine or grape juice. We also are given pieces of bread, broken from a loaf, that we dip in the chalice of juice.

I'm surprised Boob hasn't thought of a way to rent out the Church of the Duggar for various occasions. Can you imagine the crowds of Duggar followers it would draw? Cha-ching, Cha-ching....

 

 

 

[Missy Vixen]

So, the church is offsite, invitation only, but the windows are covered during services. Really? There are some fairly high-profile attendees at various churches in the Seattle area each Sunday. Maybe they should start covering their windows, too. :eyeroll:

 

I have to admit that "Duggar time" and not wanting to donate a reasonable tithe of earnings are probably the real reason for the "home church", but my concern is the fact the children in that world have nobody to turn to if something is wrong. We all saw how well that went with Gothard, and how studiously Jim Boob and J-chelle ignored the victims and the findings.

 

There, I said it.

[3girlsforus]

I found this article about the Duggar church. This may be old news to you guys but thought I'd share anyway. Sounds to me like it's a Gothard church, not a Bible church.

 

http://www.crossmap.com/blogs/19-kids-and-counting-life-behind-the-scenes-what-is-the-duggars-church-like-4239

[msblossom]

I found this article about the Duggar church. This may be old news to you guys but thought I'd share anyway. Sounds to me like it's a Gothard church, not a Bible church.

http://www.crossmap.com/blogs/19-kids-and-counting-life-behind-the-scenes-what-is-the-duggars-church-like-4239

Thanks for that link! So, basically the Duggar's "church" only allows people who do life and family exactly the way they do to have entrance. You must believe just as they do about everything, hmm...then how is their church reaching out to unbelievers and people who are hurting and suffering? How are you able to bring people to Christ who haven't already "arrived" to their level of perfection? Guess those heathens are SOOL.

The writer of that blog was so judgmental of other churches too -- must be nice to belong to the only perfect church that doesn't have a pastor, no one with any theological training, just random men who spout off their own beliefs and call it a day. Almost forgot to add they study the Basic Life Principle Seminars and teach that bastion of good biblical truth <cough cough>.

Love that the church takes pride in a broken down pulpit, uncomfortable seating, leaky roof, and handwritten signs on paper plates that distinguish the men's restroom from the women's. Oh and let's not forget about the food and fellowship that they'll sweetly talk you into as you try to make your escape to the car....just the kind of church I DONT WANT to go to, thank you very much.

Whoever said upthread that the Duggars don't want to be accountable for their tithes and time may be right and may I add: a lack of accountability for their judgmental, pharisaic, cult-like fundamental beliefs either.

Edited December 31, 2014 by msblossom

[Rhondinella]

There's a lot of interesting stuff there, but this was the part that jumped out to me:

 

Someone at some point while you are there will let you know that this church does NOT accept the government's tax status. This gives them freedom that many churches do not have. Praise God!

 

 

I know this has been speculated about here and elsewhere--whether they started their own church to take advantage of the tax-exempt status.  But honestly this makes more sense.  I'm sure the don't want the government telling them they can't preach politics from the pulpit.

[msblossom]

Hmm, good point -- I hadn't thought of that.

[3girlsforus]

Thanks for that link! So, basically the Duggar's "church" only allows people who do life and family exactly the way they do entrance to their church. You must believe just as they do about everything, hmm...then how is their church reaching out to unbelievers and people who are hurting and suffering? How are you able to bring people to Christ who haven't already "arrived" to their level of perfection? Guess those heathens are SOOL.

The writer of that blog was so judgemental of other churches too -- must be nice to belong to the only perfect church that doesn't have a pastor, no one with any theological training, just random men who spout off their own beliefs and call it a day. Almost forgot to add they study the Basic Life Principle Seminars and teach that bastion of good biblical truth <cough cough>.

Love that the church takes pride in broken down pulpits, uncomfortable seating, a leaky roof, and handwritten signs on paper plates that distinguish the men's restroom from the women's. Oh and let's not forget about the food and fellowship that they'll sweetly talk you into as you try to make your escape to the car....just the kind of church I DONT WANT to go to, thank you very much.

Whoever said upthread that the Duggars don't want to be accountable for their tithes and time was right and may I add: they don't want to be accountable for their judgemental, pharisaic, cult-like fundamental beliefs either.

 

You hit on every item that struck me as I read that article. The more I read, the more disgusted I became. What arrogance to think they are so godly that they don't need teaching, theological discussion, learning etc. Their idea of worship is getting together to pat each other on the back for how great they are. Do these people even own a Bible? Do they have any clue who Jesus was or how He behaved? They seem to spend more time learning about Gothard's teaching than Jesus' teaching. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by 3girlsforus

[msblossom]

I also thought it was interesting that the blogger basically blasted mega churches, funny since they're not the kind of church the Duggars would ever attend but it's perfectly okay to get married in one, lol.

[3girlsforus]

I also thought it was interesting that the blogger basically blasted mega churches, funny since they're not the kind of church the Duggars would ever attend but it's perfectly okay to get married in one, lol.

 

I was JUST typing that. She is so proud of their leaky roof, broken down chairs etc. She clearly thinks it makes them even more Godly and superior to other Christians (whom I assume she considers to be fake Christians). So if it is such a Godly place, why not get married there??? 

[Rhondinella]

There wouldn't be enough room for the camera crew. :-)

[Barb23]

I found this article about the Duggar church. This may be old news to you guys but thought I'd share anyway. Sounds to me like it's a Gothard church, not a Bible church.

http://www.crossmap.com/blogs/19-kids-and-counting-life-behind-the-scenes-what-is-the-duggars-church-like-4239

I've read this article before & think someone said it was all false. Don't know if it was here or TWoP. Does anyone have any info on it? Edited December 30, 2014 by Barb23

[Wok Chop]

Do we know if Proverbs Mama is a real person? It smells like a troll to me.

[3girlsforus]

I apologize if this article turns out to be fake. I didn't know. I will say that if it's fake I will be relieved. It would give me some hope that their church is actually about worshipping the Lord.

[kassygreene]

Not having the tax-exempt status of a church means they don't have to open up their books.

[Wok Chop]

I have no idea if the blogger is for real. All I know is that it's pinging my trolldar. I have been reading Duggars-related forums pretty much since the beginning of their famewhoredom. In that time, I've witnessed several different characters who appear claiming to have insider info. these stories have always turned out to be false. Interestingly enough, it's been one specific troll who has been responsible for most of the different characters and fake stories. Unfortunately, many of these fabricated stories have taken on a life of their own and are still being spread around the Internet to this day.

[Sew Sumi]

If Proverbs Mama is fake, it took a steel pair of balls to post on Lily and Ellie's Duggar Blog. 

 

http://www.duggarfamilyblog.com/2013/01/josh-duggar-we-have-some-fights.html

 

She mentions the Vanderhoffs by name, and not in a very cheery light. (eta: Her second post hints at the pregnancy that Anna hid for 6 months. Very interesting...)

Edited December 30, 2014 by Sew Sumi

[Almost 3000]

That blogger has the feel of some of the fundie fakes that have been exposed recently.

[GEML]

Our SB church is not congregationally led. We do not vote on finances, missions, color of paint, etc. As members, we vote only for elders. We are governed as you said, by a board of Elders (Bishops/Pastors), not Deacons. Deacons in our church do not function as Elders. As members, we attend meetings re; finances, missions, problems that may be related to a pastoral staff member or Elder.

But you don't look to anyone outside or above the congregation for decision making do you? The titles may change, but the internal rules remain. I'd be pretty surprised to see that in a Baptist church (although there are so many off-shoots, it could happen!)

[Sew Sumi]

That blogger has the feel of some of the fundie fakes that have been exposed recently.

Razing Ruth NEVER would have done that (and she's the one who "knew" the Duggars). 

[mbutterfly]

In the Proverbs Mama quote I was interested in the language "pastoral staff." Clearly that is not referring to an Elder nor a Deacon. If it is true, who would be functioning as pastoral staff, I wonder.