Season 2 Talk

[OnceSane]

14 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Is this series eligible for Emmy Awards?

Should be.  Just like Netflix's original movies can be nominated for the Oscars.

[rue721]

11 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Monty, you're pathetic. "Tell me what you want me to do"? Grovel some more, why don't you?

Monty's going to need to hang onto his association with the jocks/clique because he's apparently in a similar boat to Justin in that he needs people he can crash with or call on to help at random times when he has trouble at home. I don't remember if that issue came up last season, but they made kind of a point of it this season, like how they had him crashing in that parking lot (?) area with Scott's help. But ultimately, Monty needs these guys (and especially Bryce, the leader) to be ride or die for him, so he's going to be ride or die for them/the group. He's meaner than Justin and I think he probably is more than a little sadistic, but I think that's where his pathetic loyalty to the team (or Bryce in particular) is coming from.

What I think is sad is how Justin seems like he's going to turn into his mom, although hopefully he'll be luckier in that he probably won't have a violent drug dealer boyfriend who chokes out his future/hypothetical children -- and I guess Monty is going to turn out like his dad, who is only referenced as a violent abuser. And Zach is apparently going to be an absent and emotionally withdrawn husk like his mom, too.

That's why I liked Jessica's storyline, btw. That girl has a very sweet family and lovely relationships with her parents. Sometimes she comes off to me as really cold, but I guess the truth is that because she's got such a nice and supportive family, she doesn't really need the other kids as much.

There are other nice families on the show, but none of the other kids from nice families seem very close with their parents or really seem to be following in their footsteps so much (Clay, Hannah, Taylor, Alex).

[rue721]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:23 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

Anyone who walks past a gay couple and uses that word deserves a beating.

I mean, he was 100% wrong to use a slur against them, and honestly, calling them the f-word while they're all in some random alley like that could also easily be interpreted as a threat. I get why Tony freaked. But I think Tony still went way, way too far by 1. turning the altercation physical 2. beating him so violently. Tony was kicking the man's head in, and apparently blinded him in one eye. That's extreme violence right there. The guy deserved a reaction but I don't think he deserved to be maimed for life -- and even if he did deserve to be "punished," Tony's still not the one to make that call (the police/courts are, biased and maddening though they might be).

 I honestly felt bad for the guy when he and Tony ran into each other at the boxing gym and the guy put out his hand to shake, all friendly. Not that the bigotry is OK in the least, but I don't think that Tony cracking the man's skull and maiming him was OK either.

[memememe76]

I generally find the show does a pretty good job with the parents. They are interesting in their own right, if ineffectual. Alex's dad and Jessica's dad deviate from what one would expect from those types of characters. 

I do not think the show made Tyler a complete victim. He made his own bad choices. There is a reason he was on Hannah's tapes. That said, I did feel bad for him the whole season. I am glad a school shooting was averted, even if it was stopped unrealistically. I liked how Clay mentioned how adults would feel bad for a week and them move on.

I am assuming Parminder Nagra will play a big role next season because she is Parminder Nagra and I love her. Maybe each episode will be a counseling session for each character.

[CeeBeeGee]

22 hours ago, GayAsFuck said:

First and foremost, I have to say that just because a girl isn't present or even on one's mind during an erection doesn't make someone gay. And the only reason that scene was so important was because after him trying to shoot himself in the head, and surviving, he wasn't sure he could get an erection ever again.

The reason, I believe, Clay didn't want Tyler to go to jail was because he admitted to the part he played in Hannah's death when under oath, and even asked him to help vandalize the baseball field with Cyrus since the school was completely ignoring the fact that one (or more) the their star athletes was a rapist. Plus, he literally did go through hell after his first day back, and I think Clay could sense that. Tyler was always bullied, and had little to no friends. Especially after his little accident at the movie theatres. 

No, I totally get that. I'm not saying "he has to be gay because he got an erection around a boy," it's more like I was very confused because I misinterpreted that scene--I put in the context of: earlier he couldn't get hard with the internet woman, plus he talked about rumors of his being gay (which read to me as the show foreshadowing something), finally he gets an erection around a boy. I interpreted all three of those events as connected to each other, but I guess not. 

I started watching "Beyond the Reasons" and I'm very concerned about why the show has Tyler being a school shooter. In the special they defend the rape scene by saying the viewer is forced to empathize with him, and then he goes on to see him planning a school shooting and even though that is obviously horrible, you see his humanity earlier (something like that). They explicitly linked bullying to school shootings which is simply not statistically valid. There are far many more examples of mass shooters being motivated by racism and misogyny, sociopaths who are angered at being crossed (a girl turns them down, they don't make the team, expulsion) or sociopaths who wants to "beat Columbine" and achieve notoriety. After Parkland there was a lot of "next time, let's reach out and notice people's pain"--the shooter in that case wrote such charming things on his backpack as "I hate n******" and was open about hating Jews and gay people.  He's the bully, not the victim of bullying.

I have no problem with the show showing Tyler as a different kind of shooter--my problem is how the special tried to draw a correlation between school shootings and bullying..

[ghoulina]

Just finished. I thought this should have been a one-off at the end of last season and I remain convinced of that after concluding season 2. 

I found ghost Hannah silly and it took me out of the scenes. I also thought they did a lot of retconning of her character and story line in order to justify a second season. So much of what was revealed about her during the trial just seemed so out of left field and unbelievable. 

I didn't mind Clay the first season, but I found him really flat and annoying,  at the same time, in this season.

I did love his friendship with Justin, though. I just can't help but root for Justin. I love that he spoke up about Bryce, knowing it would implicate him as well. I mean, he did listen to his girlfriend get raped and just sit there. 

The best relationship of the whole show was Zach and Alex, though. They were so comical and endearing. Two of the more believable characters, if you ask me. 

HATED the sports coach and I actually suspected HIM of taking the pictures to protect his guys. 

I thought the show totally telegraphed Tyler as a school shooter from early on, so that didn't surprise me at all. But I was glad they went a different route and let him get talked out of it. 

The bathroom scene was the only time I cried during the entire season. That was brutal and Tyler going home and telling his mom that everything was great just ripped my heart out. It's so depressing how little kids tell their parents.

Overall, I thought this was a pretty big mess and didn't deliver as strong of a message as the first season. With the direction it looks like they're going in the 3rd season, it looks like the show will be devolving even further in CW like drama. 

[Cementhead]

Brava to your entire post, ghoulina.  You put into perfect words all of my thoughts exactly after having just finished watching this season myself last week.   I didn't want to quote your whole post even though I agree with its' entirety but will quote this last sentence  ...

Quote

Overall, I thought this was a pretty big mess and didn't deliver as strong of a message as the first season. With the direction it looks like they're going in the 3rd season, it looks like the show will be devolving even further in CW like drama. 

... to add my thoughts on this further.   The first season of this series IMO, was groundbreaking and was like nothing else I have ever seen.  It was beyond compelling and stayed with me for days afterwards.  I didn't think it needed a second season.  I was not interested in watching season two because I knew it would never be able to capture the impact of the first and I was not at all, in any way shape or form, interested in watching a season that I thought was going to be focused on a school shooting.  I ended up watching this season anyways, mainly out of boredom and lack of anything else to watch.  I told my husband that this season just felt like any other generic tv teen drama (which, admittedly, is my favourite genre even though I am in my 40s) and the impact of the first season is completely lost.  In fact, I spent much of the first few episodes trying to remember who was who and who did what to try and get back into the story.  Another season will just further it's foray into "another CW teen drama."  

[truthaboutluv]

On 6/16/2018 at 5:12 PM, ghoulina said:

It's so depressing how little kids tell their parents.

And that for me has been probably the greatest lesson of this series. I was talking to my friend about the show as she hasn't started watching it but is curious. She was asking my thoughts on all the controversy and the Parent's Television Council saying that Netflix should yank it and other negative reactions. My opinion to her was that yes, the show is very heavy with some of its subject matter and if a parent doesn't think it's something their child should be exposed to, that's fine and their right as a parent. 

However, my opinion to her was rather than these parents screaming to have the show yanked, some of whom have never even seen it, they, maybe more so than teens need to watch it. Because the main thing I've drawn from most of these characters is how much they don't talk to their parents and by all accounts, that is very true to life. So many parents are going through daily life thinking they have a great relationship with their kids and if you ask them, "oh he/she tells me everything and I pay attention and keep a close eye". 

And to their credit many do try their best. They ask the questions experts say they should, show interest, follow the social media accounts to see what they're doing online, etc. and still there is so much that these parents never know because their kids simply don't tell them and don't talk to them about their problems and what's really going on in their life. And you saw it with so many of these characters on the show. I thought it was great that the show showed almost every one of the teenagers' interactions with their parents at least once. 

So we got to see how Marcus' father has no clue what his son is really like, Jessica's parents had no clue what happened to her, Clay's parents bless their hearts are all over the place, Tyler's parents, no clue that their kid has an entire damn arsenal of guns in their house, Alex's parents didn't realize how he was spiraling, Zach's mother is emotionally stunted so her son feels like he can't talk to her, etc. 

[1775rik]

I found Hannah's statement that Clay seems less afraid when he's with Skye and that that makes her sad to be fairly heartbreaking.  Assuming she's a hallucination, that seems to be Clay's way of acknowledging that he was too afraid with Hannah and that this fear kept him from being the kind of friend (at least) that she needed.

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

I saw that you praised Clay's parents,

I did?

 

Quote

I'm certain I've said this already within previous posts, but I don't think it has anything to do with how little or how much a child tells their parents. The show is simply based on the book (or at least the first season was). The first season seemed to be entirely about acknowledging that people are forever choosing to be horrible to one another and that everything affects everything. Everyone affects everyone. Season two, however, seemed mainly to be about closure (for the Bakers and for Clay) and about holding the people who in some way had anything to do with Hannah's death accountable for their actions, as well as the actions of those who have hurt Jessica and countless others. It also seemed to be about redemption (i.e. the testimonies by each student on one of Hannah's tapes, Tyler not shooting up the school, Kevin Porter losing his job after trying to help Justin, Chloe speaking out against Bryce, and even Justin sacrificing his freedom for Jessica). Not everyone seized their opportunity for redemption, but that was mainly for the sake of another season I'm sure. 

I said that in my opinion , that was one of the greatest lessons I took away from the two seasons. Not that it was the only lesson and not that that is necessarily what someone else would take away from watching it or even that that is necessarily what the writers were going for. Art is rarely ever mutually exclusive. I am well aware of the show being based on book (I read the book years ago) and the story is largely about how our actions, sometimes so minute, can negatively affect and impact a person. I got all of that. However, there are many ways and angles to view the same story and many lessons to draw from it. 

 

Quote

Now, I do agree with you that an important lesson can be learned by adults (especially parents), but the truth is a mother or a father cannot always fix a child's problem. In fact, parental involvement could only make things worse. In the real world at least. In my experience, at least.

And I didn't say they could. But I don't see how one shutting their parents out, especially if they are loving and concerned parents who want to help, makes things any better. Again, my post was one interpretation and view of the series. It wasn't meant to be a sweeping generalization of real life and every teenager who struggles with any number of issues. And it wasn't meant to be a final say on what the show represents. Everyone who watches the series, I'm sure, based on their own history and life, can draw their own conclusions and have their own feelings on it. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

This wasn't an attack on you, dude. I was just stating my opinions, like you did. This show has gotten a lot of bad negativity, and I just feel like it's getting it for all the wrong reasons. Sorry if you got offended by anything I said. 

I wasn't offended. I was clarifying my opinion and I really was confused by your stating I defended Clay's parents because I didn't remember doing so. And I don't think anyone on this board, far as I've read, disagrees about the negative reaction the show has gotten and thinks that the show is somehow responsible for causing teens to kill themselves. The debate over the show has actually hardly been touched upon on this board, far as I can tell. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

12 minutes ago, GayAsFuck said:

And I may have been confused about it being praise, but this is what I was referring to. 

Yeah what I meant by that is on one hand, we've seen them attempt to have a firmer hand, talk to him about opening up more to them, to be more honest with them, particularly in the first season but then they're still just handing him a new car despite his clearly acting out again and not talking to them, just accepting Justin into their home without asking too many questions and still not doing much after realizing he's an addict, etc. So that's not me praising them. It's my noting that while they had moments of trying, they also were fucking up in big ways too, hence their being all over the place. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[rue721]

47 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 It's my noting that while they had moments of trying, they also were fucking up in big ways too, hence their being all over the place. 

What I thought was striking about many of the characters -- Clay, Hannah, Tyler, Courtney, to name just a few -- is how irrelevant their parents were. All of those characters come from what I would describe as very loving, very stable homes. But even though those characters weren't dealing with very heavy issues at home, they were clearly emotionally fragile and struggling. Even though the parents weren't perfect, I wouldn't go so far as to say they were fucking up. They really didn't seem to have any control over what was happening with their children, for better or worse. Which I think is true to life and also probably inevitable.

In a sense, I feel like the kids who came from the "nicest" homes were actually the most emotionally unstable. But that might be some weird quirk of the writing rather than an actual theme or anything.

[cherenkov]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:00 AM, mledawn said:

Equating sexual assault with war-torn and third world countries is a gross misunderstanding of the ubiquity of sexual assault.

In order to get those statistics, you have to go look at the so-called study done by Mary Koss, which was so flawed as to characterize regret as sexual assault, and you have to believe that rape is more common in the United States than it is in places where it actually is used as a weapon of war as it is in Somalia. That is why I find the preachy "#metoo" montage in this episode so much of a turn off.

What this episode portrayed was so over the top I have no real interest in seeing more.

[1775rik]

I thought this was just a devastating day for Clay, making him recall things he had forgotten about or at least put out of his minds.  The first thing was not writing letters to Hannah.  The way her summer worked out with Zack, she did not need the letters during the summer.  However, when everything went to hell I think she would have remembered getting the letters and that would have meant something to her.  When Clay approached her at the lockers on the day she committed suicide, I think Hannah came very close to telling Clay what was going on.  While the pain she was in obviously had a large effect on her decision not to talk to him, I think the decision was also heavily influenced by her beliefs that:  (1) no one cared enough about her to go out of their way for her and (2) she was such a bad person that they should not have cared about her.  Its possible that her recalling Clay care enough about her to write her might have been enough to tip the scales towards telling him.  Recalling his failure to write her must have filled him with shame, particularly when he remembers her remark about him being her only friend.  [As an aside, I don't find it very realistic on the part of the writers to have Clay not write Hannah.  If a girl you are in love with, infatuated with or simply have a crush on ask you to write her, you write the damn letters.  I don't think he would necessarily have brought himself to confess his deepest thoughts, particularly about her, but he would have at least written a letter or two filled with chit-chat.]

The other, more obvious thing he remembered was her suicidal statement while coming down from Molly.  While his failure to take note can possibly be excused as just something that she was saying because she was coming down and did not really mean it, her expression while making the statement was so devastating that it seems it would be hard for anyone to believe she was not at least partially serious.  However, at least one character trait of Clay that was consistent up to when Hannah died was his obliviousness.

Clay's singleminded pursuit of "justice" for Hannah was at least partially motivated by his feeling towards her.  However, I think it may have been more motivated by the guilt he felt because he realized there was so many ways he could have helped her but didn't.  His testimony forced him to remember two additional instances when he let her down.

[1775rik]

Have to admit I felt a bit of respect for Clay when he called himself an asshole who watching himself hug rather than kiss Hannah.  The hug itself seemed strange--as near as I can recall that is the only time we saw them hug. 

[eringogreen]

Given the heavy material of this show, this is may be really petty, but it might be a nice reprieve for a moment.

Did the wardrobe choices stand out to anyone else? Particularly with Jessica and Alex, this started to take me out of the show. With just a few exceptions (ex: the dance, where Jessica wore a dress) the two of them had a VERY specific style that they didn’t veer away from. I get that it’s part of building a character, but this was kind of ridiculous. Jessica had an affinity for those patterned open-front coat things with tight wrists and Alex always wore patterned button-ups with cardigan sweaters. It’s like they found one item they liked and ordered it in every color offered. 

[Bill1978]

Watched this episode last night and I'm still recovering from THE BOOBIES. I don't know but I just wasn't expecting that moment from this show. For a moment I thought I had somehow slipped into some bizarre Game of Thrones Universe with technology LOL.

[imakicola]

Did we see ANY footage of Hannah post-haircut this season?!

Ok, now for reals.  SPOILER ALERT!

Does ANYONE else think that Alex is in the closet!?

Ok, so he’s in “love” with Jessica...they have never had sex, and aside from kissing her, he has never tried to have sex with her with the exception of the rumor that the reason he dumped Jessica and put her name on that hot or not list was because she “wouldn’t.”

But then after lots of physical contact with sexy Zach all season, they get physical with each other without shirts and Alex, after TRYING and FAILING with STRAIGHT PORN, finally gets an erection from ZACH? 

Not to mention they were fighting because Alex was angry that Zach and Hannah had sex and literally yelled to Zach “YOU CAN FUCK GIRLS!!!”

Then of course Zach insisted on making Alex dance with him (or learn how, rather). SERIOUSLY in that moment, I thought that Zach was going to dip Alex, and Alex was going to kiss Zach and have Zach be all “uh...Dude nope,” to have Alex get mad and kick Zach out. It just seemed to me like it would happen. AND IT DIDN’T!

Edited June 29, 2018 by imakicola

[ShortyMac]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:08 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Listening to Marcus blatantly lie about Valentine's Day with Hannah made my blood boil. But when he then said that she asked him to set her up with BRYCE WALKER, I was like OH NO HE DIDN'T!!

THIS!! What a POS. Hannah can't refute that or defend herself because she's dead. I am pissed. Marcus better get his, I swear...

[ShortyMac]

On 5/20/2018 at 10:44 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And from what we've seen of her with Bryce so far, he hasn't been abusive towards her so it's possible that he's one of those guys who puts on a nice face and then people like his past girlfriends are shocked when he's accused of being a rapist.

The way I saw it, In the previous episode, Bryce was being a bit forceful with her when they were in his pool house/guesthouse. He forced her up against the door and locked it so she couldn't leave after she said, "This isn't happening." She told him to get away from her and he mocked her, but, it didn't look consensual to me. She didn't force the issue I think out of fear.

[ShortyMac]

Those 'what if' scenes with Porter and Hannah were heartbreaking. If only.

Seeing Justin's home life hurts, too. Been there. I'm glad Clay came around and is supporting him.

Sucks seeing Clay getting beat up again.

Not gonna lie, I enjoyed that Cyrus/Tyler (though, I'm scared that he's going to shoot up the school)/Clay stuff. I'm glad that the Assholes aren't letting the Bryce/jock culture thing go. It's wrong and nothing will change if everyone is allowed to forget about it or sweep it under the rug until the next tragedy.

I wonder who that Sarah girl is and why Olivia doesn't want her to testify?

[ShortyMac]

Clay's speech and his scene with Hannah and her giving him a happy memory 'just because' was emotional for me. Great stuff. 

Loved the message/chalkboard for Hannah at Monet's after the memorial service. A cool way to pay tribute to her. 

Bullshit that Bryce gets three months probation and Justin, six. Money talks. I'm sure Bryce's parents gave Hillcrest a hefty donation so he could transfer there and play football. I saw when Cyrus and Tyler that the baseball field was named Walker Field; another reason why Bryce felt untouchable. Lucky Bryce gets to 'start over,' where I'm sure he'll keep preying on girls...

I loved that Clay's parents want to adopt Justin and that they let Clay decide and tell him. A kind and compassionate thing. Justin needs a family. 

Here for Alex/Jessica. 

The 'Reasons Why Not' list and saying Olivia saying goodbye to Clay. Bittersweet. Sad. 

Loved seeing Parminder Nagra as the new counselor. She'll always be Neela from ER to me. :)

Jesus Christ. I am, sickened, heartbroken, and angry by Monty and Co. assaulting Tyler. He did not or ever deserve that. Ever. I am so sad. 

Monty is sick. He needs help. 

Alex and Zach hanging out and helping with dancing was cool. 

I was afraid that when Clay and his dad left Justin alone that Seth would show up. I shouldn't have expected Justin to stay clean. 

The dread and "no, no, no" when Tyler pulled his guns out from the basement...I was sweating and my anxiety ramped up. 

I teared up when Clay's and Hannah's song came on and his friends came and held and supported him. 

Man, Jessica already cheated on Alex and Chloe is pregnant.

After Mackenzie showed Cyrus the text, I was just yelling, "Tell the chaperones!! Call the cops!! Do not handle this yourselves!!"

OMFG. I really thought Tyler shooting up the dance was going to happen. I was sweating and pleading at the TV for Tyler not to shoot. I wish Clay had dropped the gun. Is he going to take the fall? Will they tell the truth, that it was Tyler? 

So many loose ends to explore in Season 3. Seth, Chloe, Tyler...

This series is incredible. 

Edited July 16, 2018 by ShortyMac

[Straycat80]

Just finished watching this season. I'm looking forward to season 3. I have one question, maybe I missed this: 

what was in the letter the blonde lady left for Olivia? 

[Cotypubby]

This season was terrible. Absolute garbage.  

The only reason I slogged through it was to see some kind of justice/retribution/revenge/something towards Bryce and all we got was more rape and misery with everyone getting away with everything and nothing having consequences. I don’t care if the writers want to claim it as “realistic,” it makes a shitty TV show. I have zero interest in watching a 3rd season because they have shown what they are all about and it will be the same kind of bullshit for another 13 hours. No thanks.

I don’t know what the fuck the writers were going for, because they made me want to see Tyler shoot up the school and kill these monsters. Surely that’s not the message they wanted to send?

And how about Clay learning someone is about to shoot up a school and he says “Don’t call the police!” Great message there too, that’s really what we want teens to think. That if you know someone will commit a school shooting, don’t get the cops involved, just go talk to him by yourself and then put him in hiding. Genius.

Tyler would have been in need of serious medical help after that assault if not dead on the bathroom floor. He’d have internal injuries, probably a perforated colon, who knows what else, not to mention a concussion or brain damage. No way would he just walk out of there with a small bruise on his forehead. His attack was more shocking than the other rapes precisely because it was more brutal and violent. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Cotypubby

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I was on vacation last week, I heard The Night We Met on the radio twice! I was driving so of course after I got where I was going, I had to watch the dance scene on YouTube and sniffle a little bit.

[Miles]

Okay. Going into this I was extremely apprehensive. I thought they wrapped up the last season nicely. But this has a lot more potential than I thought. I think this could be better than season one, since they don't have to follow the rigid structure of the tapes and so there is no need for so much padding. Of course second seasons rarely are better than the first, so we'll see.

Also seems like we'll hear a bit more about Hannah's darker side, which is nice. On top of that it will be interesting to find out what Tony did to her. I think it's going to be a bit of a retcon, but it would make more sense that she actually had something on him than him just feeling guilty for not stopping the suicide.

 

The last scene with Clay and Sky was grating on so many levels. First of all Sky thinking immediatly that it had something to do with her when Clay didn't want to have sex. Somebody really needs to tell teenagers, both boys and girls, that boys are also allowed to just not want sex, for whatever reason and that it's not because anybody is ugly or undesirable.

Second, even though Sky's reaction was unresonable, I didn't like that Clay just left her like that. Wasn't that the thing he did to Hannah, the thing he was beating himself up about? It seems really out of character for him. I don't think he would have done this again, after all he had learned. He should have said that he just couldn't have sex with all that was going on but that he'd like to hang and/or cuddle.

 

In general I like Clay hallucinating Hannah. Like I said in a season one thread: "Unhinged Clay is best Clay".

 

On 19.5.2018 at 12:09 AM, tennisgurl said:

I dont really like Sky, so her and Clay being all kissy wasn't my favorite. At all. I would have rather checked in on everyone else. 

Well, I still think Clay should discover his bisexual side and get with Tony, so...

 

On 19.5.2018 at 11:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know the defense lawyer is just doing her job but ugh, I just can't with her trying to equate Hannah voluntarily letting Tyler take pictures of her in a public place with an upskirt photo being sent to everyone at school or Tyler skulking in the bushes taking pictures outside her bedroom window.

A lot of her arguments seemed to boil down to something you'd hear 100 years ago about people justifying a woman getting raped "Well she had sex with multiple men, so she must enjoy it. How can she suddenly say she doesn't want it?".

I don't get how every one of her sentences wasn't followed by "objection!". Either the Baker's lawyer is shit or the script is (but most court scenes on most shows are written crappily).

Edited December 23, 2018 by Miles

[Miles]

I don't really like that this episode was basically saying: All girls have it hard, but only a few boys do. Look it's high school. From what I can tell there are as many mean girls as there are mean boys and boys and girls are equally victims. Only that boys have to be strong and can't turn to anybody when they have been victimized.

 

I guess they decided to adress the criticism many people had of Hannah in season one, that she didn't tell Jessica about the rape, while she was still alive, with yet another retcon.

I'm not against the retcons in general (though it's really a few too many), but most so far seem to have been about putting Hannah in a better light and I don't like that. I liked that she wasn't perfect and made mistakes in season one. But now those mistakes get retconed away, one by one. I half expect them to explain that she didn't try to stop the rape because somebody spread super glue on the floor of the closet she was in or something.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Miles

[Miles]

On 23.5.2018 at 2:13 AM, tennisgurl said:

When Clay was yelling at Ghost Hannah for liking Justin, I was getting a serious Nice Guy vibe from Clay. "Why did you like these others guys! You should have only ever liked nice humble me you bitch!" I know he is still grieving, and he is still a young teenager with a LOT of shit going on, but he has been working my last nerve with his Hannah obsession this season. And of course, when he actually shows some empathy and compassion for poor Alex, he instantly runs off to deal with his Avenging Hannah obsession. 

To be fair to Clay here, ghost Hannah is just him hallucinating. So what she is saying is coming from his brain. So when she says "we don't chose who we fall for", that is him knowing that fact. He is conflicted. He loved her. He's angry that she killed herself and that she made bad decisions that drove her to do it. But he also understands that everybody makes bad decisions. He's working through this in his own messed up way.

 

On 23.5.2018 at 2:13 AM, tennisgurl said:

I really hate that lawyer that the school hired. She is just so freaking smug, and her whole defense seems to boil down to "Hannah was a bitchy slutty hoe bitch who deserved to die" and her strategy seems to be "berate teenagers until they break down if they're not singing to my tune,, and get pissed if they dont", and she just seems to take so much pleasure in it. It would be one thing if this was just her job and she was putting in a strong defense, but she is just so seemingly happy to tear down this dead girl, its messed up.

I don't even know how she thinks that is a good strategy. I would assume the jury would hate her. They might just award the Bakers a few million for the school board hiring a bully as their lawyer alone. I mean afterall if they hire bullies, they probably don't do anything against them in their schools either...

 

On 14.7.2018 at 10:35 PM, ShortyMac said:

The way I saw it, In the previous episode, Bryce was being a bit forceful with her when they were in his pool house/guesthouse. He forced her up against the door and locked it so she couldn't leave after she said, "This isn't happening." She told him to get away from her and he mocked her, but, it didn't look consensual to me. She didn't force the issue I think out of fear.

Nah, she was into that powerplay thing. I think the show has proven that they show when something isn't consentual a lot more clearly.

Bryce is still a fucking rapist and he probably would have raped her too, had she not consented, but this time it wasn't rape.

[Miles]

God, these retcons are really starting to grind my gears. There is no way Zach's tape would have been about the compliment stealing and throwing away the letter when all of this happened. And no, the "she didn't put everything on the tapes" isn't good enough here, not by a mile.

Also Clay being such an asshole seems to be really out of character for him, from how we saw him in season one. This isn't character development, this is character assasination by the writers.

[truthaboutluv]

8 minutes ago, Miles said:

There is no way Zach's tape would have been about the compliment stealing and throwing away the letter when all of this happened. And no, the "she didn't put everything on the tapes" isn't good enough here, not by a mile.

ICAM. I don't care how pretty they were together and how great the chemistry was, that retcon relationship was one of the worse parts of the season, IMO. Simply because it made no narrative sense, period.

[Miles]

On 24.5.2018 at 12:31 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Molly can have several side effects/after effects:

Yeah devestating depression, sure... If you take it all the time and fuck up your serotinin levels. You won't get devestating depression from one time use.

Also it's true that it is a big problem that you don't know exactly what's in it. That is why drugs should be legalised.

[Miles]

On 21.5.2018 at 4:08 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Hannah's dad is an idiot. They live in a pretty small city and he's just kissing his girlfriend in public thinking that no one will see and recognize him as the pharmacist on Main Street? I don't know if it would be worse for Hannah or Olivia to see it or for someone else to see it and tell one of them.

Or it was another bad retcon. not as bad as the Zach-one, but still pretty bad.

 

On 21.5.2018 at 4:08 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Man, if Skye managed to get that much clarity in the week or two that she's been in rehab, then maybe Clay needs to go too. I mean, seriously, she is like a completely different person now - calm, emotionally mature, rational, etc.

I think they finally got her on the right meds, is what she was implying. That will help a lot, when you have bipolar.

[Miles]

Not gonna lie, during that scene where Mr. porter imagined what he would have said had he not followed the guidelines and stoped Hannah, I cried...

I think that gave the Baker's a pretty good case, that the school guidelines were at fault for Hannah's death. Had they been better, she'd likely still be alive.

 

Clay not telling anybody about being brutalized by a bunch of jocks really annoys me. Yet it's understandable. I remember how helpless you can feel in these situations and how you feel like nobody you talk to will actually help. Sad thing is, usually that's probably even true. Nobody will help you. But in this case, with everybody on edge and a court case hanging over the school, he actually might have gotten help, had he asked for it.

So I think my annoyance might stem from the fact that he is one of the very few kids who actually could get help and maybe make a difference, something I and many others couldn't, but he's not taking it.

 

On 8.6.2018 at 5:46 AM, BaggythePanther said:

Correct me if I’m wrong (I haven’t watched a lot of Desperate Housewives) but didn’t the Mary Alice character commit suicide then narrate the episodes from beyond the grave?

Yes. But she appeared in flash-backs and now and then as an apparition (Not literally haunting the place, but when the mistery about why she killed herself was solved she looked on approvingly dressed all in white, or something like that. It's been a while.)

 

On 8.6.2018 at 5:46 AM, BaggythePanther said:

I can’t decide if Tony being relegated to his own completely unrelated storyline is better or worse than being Clay’s guardian angel. He has more to do but I can’t remember the last time he interacted with someone in the main cast. And I don’t understand what was wrong last season because the show doesn’t seem to have a problem showing Tony make out with his new boyfriend this season.

I have been missing Tony a lot this season. I wish he was more directly involved. I guess his storyline has to do with what Hannah had on him and will be important later on, but I wish the writers would have gone in a different direction.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Miles

[Miles]

At this point I'm all for somebody killing Bryce. He isn't going to stop. He's going to rape more people. I just don't want Clay to go to prison for it.

Stylistically it was an awesome choice that they had ghost-Hannah stop talking to Clay and just have her recount the recording. Bravo.

 

On 22.5.2018 at 8:58 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Once again, Clay's jealousy is making me angry. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Hannah did hang out with Bryce and have sex with him right after she moved to town. SO THE FUCK WHAT? She never said on the tapes that she DIDN'T do those things (and as Zach pointed out to Clay in S2.E6, she obviously didn't put everything about everyone on those tapes). Even if she had sex with Bryce a hundred times during their junior year, that doesn't give him the right to rape her even once. Husbands can rape their wives. It's called consent and it has to be given every time. The number of times you had sex before that has no bearing on consent.

Some of that is moot since Bryce was clearly lying, but it's Clay's reaction that bothers me. Every time some new piece of information comes out in court, Clay treats it a some kind of betrayal that Hannah never told him this before. He acts like she owed him every minute detail of her life, which she did not. Even if you're married to someone for fifty years, you don't owe them that. You still get to be a separate person and have private thoughts and experiences.

It also was a pretty obvious lie. Zach testified that Hannah was a virgin when they first had sex and who are you going to believe Zach or rapist Bryce? (although even that retcon was dumb and I'm pretty sure Hannah was originally a virgin until Bryce raped her, in season one)

I really think the writers assassinated the character this season. The Clay we knew in season one wouldn't act like this. It makes me sad. Feels like they killed a great guy and replaced him with a shitty double.

 

On 27.5.2018 at 2:10 AM, truthaboutluv said:

One of the many things I'm calling bullshit on in this season. I know they're clearly on the "redeem Justin" track, enough that we should forget about his many threats to want to hurt and kill Clay last season. But trying to sell me that Justin who was so close Bryce knew nothing about that clubhouse is complete bullshit. 

Agreed.

 

On 12.6.2018 at 5:06 AM, CeeBeeGee said:

Oh my fucking GOD HOW STUPID ARE YOU CLAY??????? You left the box in the back seat of your car?!?!

Ugh! Amen, brother/sister!

And it seems like they didn't even make copies. Jesus! How hard can it be to take photos of the photos?! I guess the explaination around that was that it was technically child pronography and laws around that stuff are stupid and even if you are minor yourself and you just had the photos to bring a rapist down, it could ruin your life. But they had the photos anyway! So what difference would have made it if they had made copies?

[Miles]

They Broadchurch season two'd us! Except, while that verdict was equally infuriating, I thought it was earned. Here I really don't get how a jury would come to a verdict of not responsible. The lawyer for the school established that Mr. Porter acted according to policy and Mr. Porter himself testified that the policy was lacking. That Hannah probably would still be alive had he gone after her. That alone should have been enough but there was so so much more. Even the lawyer for the school came off like a bully herself the whole time. I don't think a jury would have sided with her.

Also there was a massive fight in the school with no consequences for the kids in it, because there were jocks involved. Howw did that not come up at trail? Wwe had a bunch of last minute additions in this trail, so clearly that's not a problem.

At this point I wouldn't even mind Tyler killing the headmaster and maybe the coach...

 

On 23.5.2018 at 11:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Did Clay ever figure out what was taken from his room when Monty broke in?

I think it was the gun from Justin's bag, which Monty then sent to Alex.

 

On 23.5.2018 at 11:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Loved that Alex's dad perp walked Bryce during the press conference so that everyone got to see it. Justin just broke my heart. He knew he would be arrested as an accessory and he testified anyway. Even if he ends up not being convicted, now he's in the system and there's no way that he will be able to avoid going into the foster system.

I still don't see how he would be an accessory. He didn't facilitate, he just didn't do enough to stop Bryce. That might be morally wrong, but afaik it's not against the law.

 

On 23.5.2018 at 10:23 PM, starri said:

The one black mark on an otherwise stellar episode was Clay telling Hannah that he couldn't forgive her.  What does she need your forgiveness for, asshole?

Killing herself. In many wways that was a dick move and hurt a lot of people.

 

On 26.5.2018 at 9:21 AM, NUguy514 said:

There was no way the Bakers were winning the case given what we were shown of the testimony.

I really disagree. The only things the defense really did was drag Hannah's character through the mud. They didn't establish at all that the school wasn't repsonsible, while the Baker's established quite a few points where the school failed.

If the jury really ruled against the Baker's because Hannah wasn't a saint, despite the fact that the school clearly failed and people think that's normal... well that's just sad.

[21 Savage]

This show always leaves me on the edge of my seat. I look forward to what the next season has in store. I want Bryce to go down hard.

[Dominiq]

Justin is one of my favorite characters in this show (also brilliant portrayal by Brandon Flynn). His arc is fascinating and deep down he is a damn good dude, but he's also a damn weak dude. Diving deeper into his friendship with Bryce really shed light on a lot of the reasons for that, and makes me like him so much more for what he did in this episode... and empathize with him on why he couldn't do it earlier

[sterling77]

Most of you won’t remember, but writers didn’t adress something major. First of all in episode 1 Tony is burning a page along with the note Hannah left behind with the tapes and later we found out in the next episodes that Ryan maybe has given it to him. Also when Ryan was on trial we get to see a flashback in which Ryan was at Hannah’s house and he steals 2 pages from her diary, the one is the poem Ryan had published and the other maybe was the page he gave to Tony and burned it. ( It’s not clear if that was the specific page Ryan gave to Tony but we get to assume it ). And most importantly Ryan visits Hannah’s home and Olivia had been reading again Hannah’s diaries in which Hannah mentions the Clubhouse and someone wearing a leather Jacket. Olivia assumes that the guy with the leather jacket was Justin and she asks Ryan about it, and he replies “he could be”. In the same episode Tony says to Justin “don’t you dare puke on my leather jacket because I’ll kick your ass”

I am sure Tony is hiding something and Ryan knows about it, considering the meeting they had after Ryan’s testimony where Ryan tells him that he said nothing about him on court.

What do you think??

[Neurochick]

On 6/9/2018 at 11:02 PM, mledawn said:

I am genuinely happy your experience in life is that it's unrealistic and bullshit, because I'll tell you from my real and actual experiences it's fucking tiresome and exasperating (at the very least) to deal with. I would definitely love to be in the happy minority who has never even been harassed by a man (or boy). The #metoo movement has shown that it is the reality for far too many women, myself (and many women I know) included.

The #metoo movement isn't just about rape or outright sexual assault.  It's about people not seeing the person-hood of women.  I'm a person, I have feelings.  I don't exist for male amusement; to me that's what a lot of the #metoo movement is about.

I binged the season in four days.  To me it really was NOT justifying suicide or school shootings.  The truth was Hannah killed herself and nothing changed.  The school wasn't responsible (that part didn't surprise me.  After all if the parents want counselors and teachers to be better trained, that will cost $$, which means higher taxes, which is something a lot of folks don't want), Bryce got off with a slap on the wrist, Hannah's parents split up and everybody was hurting.  When Clay told Tyler (who seriously should have gone to the ER and kept overnight for observation, at least for that head injury) that if he went into the school and started shooting, adults would cry about it for a week and then everybody would forget.  That was very true too, because there have been so many of them, it would just be "one more."

I do have questions about this show.  Was Bryce supposed to be wealthy?  If so, why wasn't he in a private school?  In NYC, many well to do kids go to public school up until high school, where they either go to one of the specialized high schools (if they can get in) or to a private school; and if Bryce was in a public school, wouldn't it have been in a place where there were other wealthy kids?  Why did they mention a sports scholarship for him?  If his parents have THAT much money, he wouldn't need a scholarship to play sports.  And why was he playing football and baseball?  Shouldn't he have been playing tennis, golf or lacrosse?  IMO, Bryce was probably a tad wealthier than everybody else, but not a member of the 1%.

Sometimes I felt like this show was supposed to take place in the 80's, and then I'd see everybody with a smart phone.  How come no one had cameras, anywhere?  IRL many people have cameras in front of their homes, in their businesses, even in the schools, but no one seemed to have any of them anywhere.  

It would be interesting if the truth came out about Tyler's assault and Bryce wound up going to jail; ironic that he goes to jail for something he DIDN'T do, rather than the shit he did do.

I thought that Chloe changed her tune because she suspected she was pregnant by Bryce.  

[Ikra Taj]

its so good

Edited April 28, 2019 by Ikra Taj

[SunnyBeBe]

On 5/26/2018 at 11:13 AM, Chicken Wing said:

Am I the only one who, when we saw Meredith Monroe as Alex's mom, immediately Googled her age? And went, "Goddammit, she's 48?!!" And then felt about a million years old to realize that one of the teen characters from Dawson's Creek (who admittedly never looked like a real teenager) is now pushing 50 and playing the mother of a teen?

I looked up the age of the actor playing Skye and discovered she was 25 when she filmed this.  Bacon is the daughter of Hollywood royalty, so I was surprised.  I wasn’t impressed with her acting skills in this.  In the scene where she’s cooking pasta in the kitchen with Clay’s dad, she looks more like his mother than a teen girl.  Her  massive tattoos are distracting too.  Totally miscast, imo.