S06.E10: START

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, theartandsound said:

 

At the end, P+E buried a lethal poison, an inverse of the season five opener, when they unearthed William's body to retrieve a sample of a lethal disease.

--------

Re: Stan
Looking back over the arc of the series, there is definitely a sense that the undercover operation with the white supremacists he was involved in before he moved to Counterintelligence did something to him. It definitely contributed to the dissolution of his marriage with Sandra, and he was reaching out for friends and people to involve himself with, despite the fact that his radar was piqued enough to break into their garage in the pilot. In Phillip he found a best friend, and in Henry he came to find a kid that he could redo what he messed up with Matthew. And over the six years, he became extremely invested. The garage confrontation just broke him completely. People put up blinders all the time, shape reality to fit an internal narrative. Stan may not be the most thorough G-Man, but I like to think that he isn't incompetent. He was damaged and underwent years of self-therapy that did more harm than good.

The reason this never worked for me is that men who choose to completely seperate themselves from their family, no communication, for years, have already decided that they don't want to be with that family, or be married to that woman. Thus, Stan's angst over the dissolution of his marriage never made any sense. Stan's behavior never matched his bio, and it has been, for me, a real problem from the beginning of the show.

[KBrownie]

3 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Exactly. They’ll miss their kids terribly. That’s a huge price to pay. 

But- I think they’ll be okay at the same time. They are survivors and have each other. And their kids have each other. No one is alone. 

Small penance to pay compared to everyone else.  Oh, they'll miss Paige and Henry.  But hey, we're together, not in prison, not dead, not suffering emotionally after finding out my entire life was a lie, or because I betrayed my country for no real reason.  Of course, they'll be okay.  Some pained expressions over the kids is all they had to suffer.  Too bad all the people they killed don't' get the same courtesy.  But no remorse is shown for any of that by P & E though.  I hope they both end up suffer long, excruciatingly painful deaths and burn in hell.  Writers really dropped the ball here.  

Utter bull.

[jjj]

So, it was the trip to McDonald's that convinced Philip to stay with his family, after seeing the happy family eating its Happy Meals.  

Very Russian:  "Happy families are all alike.  Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." (Opening of Tolstoy, Anna Karenina)

Edited May 31, 2018 by jjj

[Steph J]

1 hour ago, Bubbetv said:

Ugh Paige You Ignorant Twat.

You know you're burned, so go back to the same town, to the safehouse...to do what? Burn the only other comrade you know? Drink vodka and wait to be taken to jail for the cause? Arrrgh

My assumption is that after she sobers up, she calls Stan and he helps her broker a deal to tell what she knows in exchange for immunity from prosecution.  There's an argument to be made that Paige was just a kid when she was brought into the spy game and that she was indoctrinated by the two people who had the most power to shape her moral compass.  That's not exactly how it happened, but I don't think it would be too hard to spin a story that casts her as a victim.

But if that's not her plan, then I have no earthly idea why she would go back to DC.

[SunnyBeBe]

22 minutes ago, jjj said:

Aderholt showed the photos to Father Andrei -- we saw them, also. 

I must have been typing. 

[Tetraneutron]

2 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

One thing that really stuck out for me was when E and P went to pick up Paige at her apartment and Elizabeth told her they were going "home".  Paige was all like, "Huh?  Russia?????" It felt to me at that moment she realized that, despite the playacting she'd been participating in (and the Russian videos and Claudia's family recipes), at the end of the day she is an American. (and not the Philip and Elizabeth kind of American).

That's always been the tension in the show. Paige and Henry are the most American Americans ever. Even after the time jump, Paige was completely in the dark about all the spy work (which she knew, look at all the times she asked her mother questions and her mother straight up lied) and her cultural knowledge was food and movies. 

2 minutes ago, vb68 said:

Where would Paige go from there?  I'm not really sure. Maybe she continue to try and forge her self into a superspy like her Mom wanted or maybe she would revert and be the most patriotic American. It's really hard to guess. I feel like she was very open-ended.

I see Stan leaving the Bureau and maybe doing private security or consulting or something. But he knows he isn't a very good Agent. I also think he would find a quiet way to break up with Renee.

Philip and Elizabeth at the end. I don't know. I wouldn't call it happy. I worry for Elizabeth that Claudia might have some revenge in mind. Hope Philip finds his other son. I also see Philip sneaking back in 10-15 years to see the kids.

No, I think she show was clear P and E never leave Russia. They never see their kids again. Yes, the Soviet Union collapses but these are spies. I don't think Stan knows he isn't a very good agent. He DID (eventually) figure it out. And Aderholt didn't hold it against him. I do think it slowly destroys his marriage though. Paige is the big question mark. I don't think she goes deep under cover and changes her identity. I think the implication was she pretends she didn't know about her parents, Stan plays dumb so she stays out of jail, and her life is ruined because her relationship with Henry is nothing, she has no family and no friends (she said that to her mother) so what does she have but drinking alone. 

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, it doesn't look like they have raided Claudia's apt.  IF the rent and utilities are paid up for a year, maybe, Paige can hide out there. 

I didn't get what Paige's plan was. Why Claudia's apartment? She's not doing it for ideology, Claudia has no use for her and no incentive or desire to protect her .Her only move is to play dumb and hope Stan keeps his mouth shut out of loyalty to Henry or Philip. 

[kay1864]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

So, it was the trip to McDonald's that convinced Philip to stay with his family, after seeing the happy family eating its Happy Meals.  

Fun fact:  the McD bag that Liz passed to Paige clearly had empty boxes in it. Way too light. 

[kikaha]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The reason this never worked for me is that men who choose to completely seperate themselves from their family, no communication, for years, have already decided that they don't want to be with that family, or be married to that woman.

Soldiers fighting a war may separate from their families for years.  They want to be with them, but they understand the need to defend their country. 

Stan was like that, in a way.  A soldier in the war to save his nation against subversive threats, internal or external. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Right.  She had just discovered that Claudia had lied to her mom and that there was coup staged that attempted to ruin their country....so why go to Claudia's....maybe to seek an explanation or to tell her off. 

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

They're going to interrogate her no matter what. And she'll spill. She's young, she's stupid and she has literally nothing left in her life. Nada. 

She has Henry. And she talked about Henry over and over and over again in the end. To me- it is one reason she got off the train. And she’s American. Not Russian. 

I think Stan will protect her and Henry. No doubt. After all- he knows about her and she knows he let them walk. Though I don’t think that logistical reason is the only reason he’d protect her/Henry. He cares.

She can finish college. Have a real life. Won’t be easy, but she can. She was naive imo, not stupid. 

[skippylou]

13 minutes ago, vb68 said:

I see Stan leaving the Bureau and maybe doing private security or consulting or something. But he knows he isn't a very good Agent. I also think he would find a quiet way to break up with Renee.

Renee will be looking for a way to break up assuming she is KGB.  Her "job" is over; presumably it was to keep an eye on P & E.  

[vb68]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

..so why go to Claudia's....maybe to seek an explanation or to tell her off. 

I'm thinking she didn't even know herself. She probably just ended up there as she had no where else to go.

 

8 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

No, I think she show was clear P and E never leave Russia. They never see their kids again.

I think that's probably right.  But the toll it will eventually take on Philip will be overbearing. I think Elizabeth can much more easily move on to a new life.

[SunnyBeBe]

3 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Renee will be looking for a way to break up assuming she is KGB.  Her "job" is over; presumably it was to keep an eye on P & E.  

I thought it was to get a job working in the FBI.

[jjj]

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

She has Henry. And she talked about Henry over and over and over again in the end. To me- it is one reason she got off the train. And she’s American. Not Russian. 

I think Stan will protect her and Henry. No doubt. After all- he knows about her and she knows he let them walk. Though I don’t think that logistical reason is the only reason he’d protect her/Henry. He cares.

She can finish college. Have a real life. Won’t be easy, but she can. She was naive imo, not stupid. 

I'll post Holly Taylor's theories about Paige's future over in the Media thread.  But here also:  www.vulture.com/2018/05/holly-taylor-paige-jennings-future.html 

Edited May 31, 2018 by jjj

[Ellaria]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Right.  She had just discovered that Claudia had lied to her mom and that there was coup staged that attempted to ruin their country....so why go to Claudia's....maybe to seek an explanation or to tell her off. 

I assumed that she went there because she had nowhere else to go. It is the proverbial “safe house.”

Edited May 31, 2018 by Ellaria Sand

[kikaha]

I think Paige went to Claudia's because she thought it was safe, and she didn't have anyplace else to go.  The family house was out.  So were the travel agency and her apartment.  But how would the US authorities connect Claudia to anything?   

Also, the apartment gave her something familiar to hold onto, right when her entire world was falling apart.  It held a sense of family, which she craves.  It may also have had some assets she could sell, if she needed to raise quick cash. 

One thing for sure.  Her childhood is officially over now. 

[scartact]

Someone upthread also mentioned the safe house was probably the one place Paige felt closest to Elizabeth. She's clinging to a remnant of something that is no more.

[kikaha]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I assumed that she went there because she had nowhere else to go. It is the proverbial “safe house.”

Oops...@vb68 beat me to it.

Me too!

[Umbelina]

With the real spy kids of the KGB arrested here, their parents got decent paying jobs in the USSR, soon to be Russia, and sent the kids money. 

There are far more countries in the world than just the USA or USSR, they could meet up with them in several of those countries, or the kids could fly to the USSR/Russia soon.  It's up to the kids really.

In less than 4 years, communism and Gorbachev are gone (a coup does happen) and traveling is even easier.  They will see the kids again.

Stan was being a human over being a spy, and he did hear Oleg's words about creating a world that was less dangerous for ALL of them.  He was right to get out of counter intelligence in the first place, and will probably go back to chasing bank robbers until retirement.   Covering for Paige, or negotiating a deal for her is his best move, so that she doesn't tell the whole FBI that Stan let them go. 

[Erin9]

57 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

With the tenor of how this ended.....I don't think it insinuated that Paige would go to prison.  P and E had hope for both of the kids.  

Absolutely. It was a hopeful ending imo.  And Paige will help Henry and vice versa. 

[NitneLiun]

1 hour ago, crgirl412 said:

If they stay protected by Arkady and Co. they could talk or maybe even see the kids again after the USSR is dissolved, right?

What makes you think Arkady can even protect himself?  This episode was set in December of 1987. The failed coup against Gorbachev was in 1991, IIRC.  That's a long time to the many enemies they now have in the KGB.  Seems like there is a good chance Arkady, Philip and Elizabeth ended up in Lubyanka Prison with bullets in the backs of their heads.

[Umbelina]

Henry and Paige used to be pretty close.  They've grown apart mainly because of Paige's idiotic spying career.

I still remember those scenes both when he saved her from the guy who picked them up hitchhiking, and after when they were safe at home.  Henry tells her he peed his pants, she tells him how brave he was, they both promise not to tell anyone else, and she does his laundry, and promised to get him something to eat.

[SunnyBeBe]

It was nice how even though P and E are back in Russia and alone, they still in English. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

What makes you think Arkady can even protect himself?  This episode was set in December of 1987. The failed coup against Gorbachev was in 1991, IIRC.  That's a long time to the many enemies they now have in the KGB.  Seems like there is a good chance Arkady, Philip and Elizabeth ended up in Lubyanka Prison with bullets in the backs of their heads.

Yes, or the others do.  I doubt they end up in Lubyanka, because Gorbachev stays in power during the first years they are back. 

It could honestly go either way.  If they make it four years, they will be fine.  For those 4 years, Gorbachev is still in charge, so hopefully by then the conspirators Elizabeth actually met?  (two, Claudia and the guy in Mexico) may not kill her.  She can't know the others that were involved, so they may not kill her either.

Still, they are spies, they can protect themselves, and Gorbachev can protect them as well.  Once the USSR falls?  No one will care anyway. 

It will be all about making money and avoiding or joining the Mafia.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Soldiers fighting a war may separate from their families for years.  They want to be with them, but they understand the need to defend their country. 

Stan was like that, in a way.  A soldier in the war to save his nation against subversive threats, internal or external. 

Soldiers write home, and now call and skype. They communicate with their families. Very different from undercover work. The divorce rate for people in those situations nears 100%.

[NitneLiun]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, or the others do.  I doubt they end up in Lubyanka, because Gorbachev stays in power during the first years they are back. 

It could honestly go either way.  If they make it four years, they will be fine.  For those 4 years, Gorbachev is still in charge, so hopefully by then the conspirators Elizabeth actually met?  (two, Claudia and the guy in Mexico) may not kill her.  She can't know the others that were involved, so they may not kill her either.

Still, they are spies, they can protect themselves, and Gorbachev can protect them as well.  Once the USSR falls?  No one will care anyway. 

It will be all about making money and avoiding or joining the Mafia.

Good point about Lubyanka, but they still have problem with the many enemies they have made in the KGB, Soviet military and GRU.  We can only assume Claudia made it back to the USSR and spilled the beans about Elizabeth's "disloyalty". 

[SunnyBeBe]

Well, I'm not going to watch this a third time tonight, so, I'm calling it a night.  It's been a great night.  Thank you all for such wonderful company and insightful perspectives. 

[skippylou]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Henry and Paige used to be pretty close.  They've grown apart mainly because of Paige's idiotic spying career.

I still remember those scenes both when he saved her from the guy who picked them up hitchhiking, and after when they were safe at home.  Henry tells her he peed his pants, she tells him how brave he was, they both promise not to tell anyone else, and she does his laundry, and promised to get him something to eat.

Off topic.  When I was very young I would dream of having a brother or sister that I could be close to, protect and be protected.   

[Mrs peel]

46 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

In a way though, it was Oleg and Paige who were alone. Henry with Stan, P and E and Paige in that apt by herself. That was her biggest fear..being alone. 

Can someone do a list of places they were.  Where was the McDonalds, train stop, airline flight, border gate, etc. ?

On the train They were in northeastern NY, in the Adirondacks.   Rouses Point is very near the Canadian border, near where NY, VT and Quebec meet.   I assume the plane was out of Montreal, but don’t know.

i thought for a minute that Paige was going to kill herself at Claudia’s apt, but it does make more sense that she will try to make the remnants of a family with Henry.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Mrs peel
Spelling!

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It was nice how even though P and E are back in Russia and alone, they still in English. 

I think the final sentence she said to him was in Russian. 

[kikaha]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Soldiers write home, and now call and skype. They communicate with their families. Very different from undercover work. The divorce rate for people in those situations nears 100%.

Can you point me to any sources that divorce rates for undercover agents?  

[Erin9]

23 minutes ago, kikaha said:

I think Paige went to Claudia's because she thought it was safe, and she didn't have anyplace else to go.  The family house was out.  So were the travel agency and her apartment.  But how would the US authorities connect Claudia to anything?   

Also, the apartment gave her something familiar to hold onto, right when her entire world was falling apart.  It held a sense of family, which she craves.  It may also have had some assets she could sell, if she needed to raise quick cash. 

One thing for sure.  Her childhood is officially over now. 

Her childhood was over the night she demanded and got the truth imo. 

[Demian]

Quote

Still, they are spies, they can protect themselves, and Gorbachev can protect them as well.  Once the USSR falls?  No one will care anyway. 

It will be all about making money and avoiding or joining the Mafia.

Correction:  Putin (and Putin's allies) will protect them, and if Philip/Mischa is smart enough, he'll cash in on Russia's privitization of, like, the domestic telephone industry.  And then Elizabeth/Nadezhda can score some ownership points in the formerly state-owned television/mass media industries, and then the two of them will be billionaire oligarchs buying up overpriced real estate in London, New York City, Vancouver, Hong Kong, and Dubai.

 

Seriously:  Don't you know how post-Soviet Russia operates?

Edited May 31, 2018 by Demian

[Erin9]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

I think the final sentence she said to him was in Russian. 

Yep. First they spoke in English to each other as they have for so long. Made perfect sense. 

The last words were fittingly spoken in Russian- that they’d adapt to being home. Which I believe. 

I guess Philip can see his other son and family now. They didn’t say it, but this is Philip. He will. 

I’m trying to picture Philip and Elizabeth adjust to calling each other by their REAL names after over 2 decades. 

[Valmarmar]

The look on Stan's face as he half-hugged Renee and then walked away showed me he may believe she is KGB.  Then, as a poster said above, she looked uncharacteristically strong-willed and determined, as she looked out, not following him physically nor with her eyes.

 

I like that we are left to our own devices in deciding the endings of some(or all) of the characters.

 

 Paige could not even drum up enough courage to speak to Henry.  Then she is courageous enough to leave the train.  When we see her at the safe house, it's symbolic to me to see her downing liquid courage to face whatever befalls her.  And the fact that it's Vodka...

 

The garage scene had me in tears.  So many emotions at once. -   U2 - even more.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Valmarmar
spacing

[Valmarmar]

13 hours ago, skippylou said:

Off topic.  When I was very young I would dream of having a brother or sister that I could be close to, protect and be protected.   

I hear you, SKIPPYLOU !!  My brother and I are close, and I never take him for granted.  Oddly enough, I had an only child.  Now that she is an adult, we are best friends.   In watching this show,  I had a vested interest in seeing how Paige and Henry's relationship would develop over the years.  I know that was not shown, but her first concern after learning they were going to RUSSIA  was about Henry.  I am believing that she left that train to be here for him.  I like to think I would have done the same.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Valmarmar
added thought

[Umbelina]

I think it's kind of easy and normal to take your family for granted, until you are faced with losing them.

I do think Paige was over being a spy, and certainly didn't want to leave the USA for Russia, but I also think she wanted to be there for her brother, the only one who could possibly understand her feelings, and she his.  She didn't want him left all alone.  Her parents?  Had each other.

Paige finally found a real connection to stave off the loneliness--Henry.  Paige who was so afraid of that, how could she do it to her little brother?

[Cardie]

25 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

they still in English. 

Until Elizabeth says in Russian that they may get used to being back in Moscow--she's begun the transition.

17 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

On the train They were in northeastern NY, in the Adirondacks.

The Amtrak train to Montreal, the Adirondack, originates in NYC. The Jenningses may have driven up into the Hudson River valley to board at a less scrutinized spot.

[ruby24]

I was not very happy with this finale.

I really think that I've been totally misreading the show all these years. I thought Philip and Elizabeth would split apart due to the unfixable rift between them, then Philip would make some kind of deal with the FBI and Stan to turn double agent on her and help take her down in exchange for immunity for himself and the kids.

But no, they just....go back to Russia? That was it. They didn't have the guts to make anything bad happen to either of them, except for losing the kids, which is nothing compared to the crimes they've committed and the people they've killed. Lives they've destroyed. And hey, guess what, the Soviet Union is going to collapse in a couple years anyway, so they'll get to see the kids again and NEVER pay for what they've done.

I can't believe Stan just stood there and let them go. Really, dude? After all that? 

The show peaked with Martha and Paige finding out the truth in Season 3. That sweet spot in Seasons 3/4 was where they fooled me into thinking that things would actually develop on this show, that consequences would be paid for their actions. Silly me.

Edited May 31, 2018 by ruby24

[SusanSunflower]

I think that "spies" and FBI agents do understand -- as Elizabeth and Phillip both truth-bombed Paige with last week (iirc) -- it is a job ... it is an assignment.  It is not about setting policy but following orders and completing assignments,.  Stan (and the audience) quite rightly recognizes Oleg's patriotism and bravery (and self-sacrifice) .... Stan may not fully "believe" but Phillip makes the case that P&E were also "soliders" and "patriots" -- their personal identity not so important ... if not them, someone else (fallacious and ridiculous and manipulative, I don't say no)

This "framiing" gave Stan and "out" to let P&E get away .... "they were only following orders" or as was often said wrt EST "it wasn't personal" a personal affront to Stan (again arguable, but it worked in a pinch.  Stan once again couldn't "save" Oleg (whose acts were meant to thwart a coup).  Stan likely knew he would be burdened by a sense of guilt and responsibility, again, wrt Oleg forever (unless some miracle).   I think (BAD FBI AGENT), Stan opted for a bigger-picture justice .... We can't know how well he will live with that or how successful he will be in protecting Henry and Paige or lobbying for intervention on Oleg's behalf. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[showme]

2 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

She participated in and witnessed some missions with Mom. She's absolutely an accessory.

The FBI didn't know that, and they have no proof, as long as Stan doesn't rat her out.

[Donder]

Page will be fine. Lil ole me? defense. Extremely introspective finale.

[Bannon]

I cannot describe how much I hate the dialogue in the garage. It is like how an Austin Powers parody gets made, if James Bond movies had 007 going to est.

[Cthulhudrew]

Nobody died! I thought for sure there would be a couple of bodies dropped.

Poor Oleg. 

That standoff with Stan was intense. I understand Phillip's intent with the warning about Renee, but I think it was almost better not to tell Stan. He's going to be haunted with doubt the rest of his marriage. And that lingering look she gave to the Jennings house... is she/isn't she? We'll never tell!!! 

All in all, a pretty satisfying ending.

[SusanSunflower]

None of my comments are meant to imply that I think this ending "makes sense" or is "plausible" or even satisfying .... Claudia still breathes. 

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, showme said:

The FBI didn't know that, and they have no proof, as long as Stan doesn't rat her out.

Paige can tell the agency that Stan betrayed the FBI.  That is called mutually assured destruction, in arms talk parlance. 

[SusanSunflower]

I think, like many an intelligent and devoted wife, Renee was well aware (watching the FBI inventory the Jennings' home) how devastated Stan was/would be and just how destroyed her husband and foreseeable future would be .... and how much she would be playing the healing supportive wife for the foreseeable future ... she didn't know the details, she might never know, but she can recognize a "shit storm" when she sees one .... and she knows nothing about Paige and Henry (yet) ...  

Edited May 31, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, showme said:

The FBI didn't know that, and they have no proof, as long as Stan doesn't rat her out.

That just isn't true. The FBI,  using normal investigative techniques  can place her in a car with the headless and handless corpse in Chicago.

[scartact]

While doing my post-show reads, I totally forgot Gregory was allegedly an art collector? Super interesting now in context of the Erica arc, but what I'm really thinking about is Liz's deep connection to Erica's painting of the woman in sorrow and/or agony.

In the post-show podcasts with June Thomas, she interviewed the artist who did Erica's paintings, and the artist said that was actually a painting of her mother that she did around the time her mother had cancer or after she passed away (apologies if I'm retelling this story incorrectly). So the painting is of a mother in sorrow/pain/agony.

Now, coming back to that dream sequence of a (implicitly) pregnant Liz smoking with Gregory and telling him she never wanted to be a mother, this made me think about how this could be Liz subconsciously trying to cope with the wrenching tragedy of having to make the decision to leave a child behind, and then being abandoned by the other child. She's trying to tell herself she is okay, yet as she starts to drift into those paintings on Gregory's walls, behind her is the painful truth of her newfound reality: she has become a childless mother. She is viscerally connecting to this painting of a dying woman in agony, who is about to leave the painter motherless. She and Philip are childless parents; they've lost their family, even though they've tried so hard to keep the kids as part of their exfiltration plan.

This is a little bit of a funky interpretation, since it kind of collapses meta-textual context with the actual text, but it's just so interesting how much of an impression that painting left on Liz.

[showme]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That just isn't true. The FBI,  using normal investigative techniques  can place her in a car with the headless and handless corpse in Chicago.

You lost me. Paige was not on that mission, remember?