S06.E10: START

SusanSunflower · June 2, 2018

Yup, Elizabeth would have been on Stan in a heartbeat, like a mongoose on a python ....

(of course any hope of a "feel good" ending would have had to be sacrificed)

Edited June 2, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Penman61 · June 2, 2018

5 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Yup, Elizabeth would have been on Stan in a heartbeat, like a mongoose on a python ....

(of course any hope of a "feel good" ending would have had to be sacrificed)

Yes, perfect simile. Some of those looks Liz was giving Stan were peeling the remaining paint off those garage walls...

Bannon · June 2, 2018

35 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Just so you're not feeling too much in the minority, my experience of the scene was really not getting anything from it either. It didn't feel real to me like, for instance, the desert scenes in Ozymandias. Intellectually I can see what's supposed to be going on, but I really don't feel like this ending for Stan is organic at all. Part of me feels like a shoot out with them both dead would have been more believable--although I do totally buy the endings for Paige and her parents. And I can believe Stan lying to Aderholdt after the deed is done.

I have no problem with where everbody ended up. Even Paige. She's not too sharp, so why shouldnt she go back to the safehouse, and start drinking vodka? I just wish a different path had been written for them to get there

lidarose9 · June 2, 2018

Count me with the ones disappointed. I felt the whole last two episodes kinda went off the rails. It began with the flashback where teenage Elizabeth is told to always be true to herself. I groaned aloud: OH COME ON. What a joke. Give me a break. Did they join hands then and sing Kumbaya?

I was expecting some kind of emotional breakdown from Elizabeth -- they'd been signaling it all season. She had blood up to her fucking elbows in this last few days/weeks, some of the most horrific killing she's ever done. How much is too much? They'd built up a solid narrative arc with the dying artist, yet she is so unmoved by this woman's death/murder/suicide, she calmly photographs sensitive documents while the husband grieves. I guess her change of heart about her mission was the result. All that agonizing, staring into the distance. But when it came, I didn't buy it for a minute. Her sudden realization she was fighting the wrong people didn't work for me at all, especially after the really vicious arguments between herself and Philip. She was even more bought-in than ever.

I didn't buy anything concerning Stan. I didn't buy how suddenly he starts suspecting his best friend, after all these years. I didn't buy him sneaking off in the middle of a major operation to go do some random stuff. I certainly did not buy him letting them go, not for one minute. Up until the time they left, I kept thinking he would shoot someone in the leg. I kept thinking of poor Nina. He sure did forget about her, didn't he? And John Boy Walton.

Didn't buy the coincidence with Paige witnessing the young intern's drunken meltdown, and her reaction.

I didn't buy Agent Aderhold breaking down the priest.

I did enjoy them trotting out all these people who knew their secret and kept their secret, including Pastor Idiot in Argentina. One of the truly nice moments was where Philip realizes the Russian guy at work had them pegged all along. But after all the incredible shit P&E did, this is what Philip's losing sleep about? Laying off people at work? There should be a drinking game for the final season where you take a shot each time Philip is poking his adding machine staring at papers. He sure didn't get much to do all season until these last couple episodes. A real disappointment, since he was by far the best actor of the crop, in my opinion.

Margo Martindale got the best scene, imo. She was consistently great, and her character was true to itself.

I honestly could not keep track of why the FBI was investigating who for what, and by that point I really didn't care.

P&E's escape and all that came after seemed like just so much hokum. This show deserved a better ending. I agree with those who say it should have ended after season 3 or 4. Season 5 was a TOTAL waste of time, and this season was all just build-up for the finale. They could have done this in 2-3 episodes. Most of these episodes felt like padded-out music videos, with storylines that were just rehashing old material that had been handled better earlier. I really really got sick of that.

As their cover came unraveled and the turmoil back in the USSR (Beatles song!) became evident, all of the shit that kept them propped up disintegrated, P&E found themselves unsure of who was friend or enemy. I expected Philip would turn himself in to Stan and go into Witness Protection, that Elizabeth would refuse, and they would literally have to go their separate ways. I expected Philip's moment of truth would be deciding whether to turn in his wife or protect her until she could escape. I think she would have gone back to Russia, but Philip would stay with the kids and do his best to try to create some kind of decent life for them. Elizabeth would become a factory manager in Kiev and would be too proud to ever admit she'd been wrong about anything, including leaving her husband and kids. In fact, in my own mind, that is how I'll end their story.

Marianna · June 2, 2018

Not a deep question, but what if they had been together when they realized their cover was blown? I wonder if they had go-bag materials stashed somewhere besides home, if they couldn’t get home? Actually, home seems like not a great place for it.

Anela · June 2, 2018

10 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Emily Nussbaum is the best thing going, I think, so I read her piece with great interest. But my reaction to the garage scene was different from hers. She sees Philip's monologue as basically his best performance yet, masterfully exploiting Stan's need for connection. You might say that in her view, he has weaponized sincerity. And she may be right (along with those of you who have said similar things). But I saw something else. I saw Philip being 100% real at last. Did he know that this was his best strategy? Absolutely! AND every word that came out of his mouth was his deeply felt truth.

Same.

SunnyBeBe · June 2, 2018

There's so much to reflect upon with this finale. We all waited for the REVEAL which was Stan finding out the truth. We all have our perspective on how totally bizarre Stan's reaction was or perhaps it was understandable. I wonder if there are any REAL KGB people who watched and maybe even comment on these boards! lol Just curious. We do see some pretty authentic responses. Makes you wonder.......

Umbelina · June 2, 2018

7 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

I disagree. For me, the ultimate question of the show was always what they would do when the inevitable end of their spy lives happened. Do they go back to the USSR? Do they go on the run? Do they turn and make a deal with the FBI? I’ve been interested in all the other characters, but what happened to Phillip and Elizabeth has always been the core.

We don't KNOW what happens to them in Russia though. We do know Arkady is afraid for his life because he opposed the Coup. We do know Claudia is furious that Elizabeth and Philip helped derail the Coup. We do know that Arkady's boss and several other hugely powerful government officials were FOR the Coup, and we also know that Gorbachev doesn't even have the power to save Oleg. Bullets in Philip and Elizabeth's brains and very soon are a very likely outcome. Ditto for Oleg's dad if they decode the phone messages. Those people are not going to let this go. The same people do get Gorbachev out in 1991, even though Communism and everything they believe in, including the USSR fails. Why? Because of Oleg, Arkady, Elizabeth, and Philip in great part.

7 hours ago, hellmouse said:

He was like a snake charmer. Just the sound of his voice seemed to lull Stan into acquiescence. I think it was @sistermagpie who called this ability Philip's "evil talent" - and here he was using it to fullest extent we've ever seen. It was his best performance because it was (almost) entirely truthful and he was saying it all as himself. He wasn't Clark convincing Martha to trust him, to believe him, to do the thing he wanted her to do - and he was always effective with Martha. He was Philip convincing Stan. And he did it. Amazing.

Yes, the "make it real" and while beautifully and skillfully done, because Philip is highly trained and wonderful at that, in part because of his ability to seem sincere, and because he knows to mix as much truth in there as possible? Would that stop Stan from shooting both Philip and Elizabeth in the leg? No, it wouldn't. He would know enough to shoot both of them rapidly. Stan had options other than killing them all.

Don't get me wrong, I did buy the scene, mostly because Noah REALLY sold it to me. I loved it at the time. I believe Stan would go there alone, that part didn't bother me, because we've always seen Stan do things like that, and because he already tried to tell Aderholt about Philip and Elizabeth...lots of things play into that decision that are believable to me.

Do I really think Stan would let them go? No. I just don't. 3 FBI agents JUST DIED in Chicago. That's a bit fucking deal.

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

I need to give this thread up, because reading it continues to make me really irritated about the final episode, the garage scene especially. Here we have Stan, who has in the last 7 years has seen his partner murdered by the KGB, which so enraged Stan that he committed murder in response. He saw a colleague's life destroyed by the KGB via a false relationship, which then included another colleague being murdered. I'll even forget about what is entailed in Stan not strongly suspecting that Phil is Clark. Stan knows with 100% certainty that Phil and Liz were involved in murdering FBI colleagues a few days earlier in Chicago.

In the face of this reality, Phil's effort to convince Stan to let them go includes, among other things, a statement that he isn't involved in espionage anymore, and Phil remarking upon Phil's "shitty life"! And it works! Stan is such a programmable robot he may as well have a role on Westworld! Stan forgets about all the people he cares about who no longer have a life, because of KGB illegals, including, with 100% certainty, this KGB illegal, because this KGB illegal is talking about his own shitty life, while blatantly lying about no longer doing KGB illegal stuff!

That's it.Sorry for the monomania. Not another sentence on the topic. Promise.

I disagree with you about quite a bit, (for example, I just watched the whole Amador thing, and Stan seriously, and with excellent reasoning, believes Gregory killed him) but I do agree with you about this.

Honestly, a more realistic ending to that amazing and breathtaking scene would have been for it to play ALL the way out as it did, and then for Stan to shoot both Elizabeth and Philip in their legs. Rapid fire, two shots, ready to kill them if that didn't work. Immobilize them, order Paige to get on the ground (which she would do.)

It's tough, because I loved that scene, and would have hate to lose it, or never have watched it. Was it believable? Not really. Would it have been if the writers hadn't chosen to have Elizabeth go on a season long killing spree, 10 deaths this shorter season as opposed to an average of 3 deaths for her in longer seasons? Yes, honestly yes. The capper is the three dead FBI agents, because honestly, cops don't forget that, and they do go after cop killers with a vengeance.

So was it the scene or the lead into the scene? I'd argue that without the bloody lead in with ALL of Elizabeth's murders, AND dead FBI agents? It would have been easier to believe.

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think the piece that explains why Stan relents on this point is the part of Philip's monologue where he--convincingly!--makes the case to Stan that he and Stan are both patriotic soldiers. Stan knows that he himself has murdered for his cause. So Philip's murder record only strengthens the bond. Stan can't view him as "the other."

Now, that piece couldn't possibly have worked without all the other pieces of the monologue. In isolation, it would have failed ludicrously. As would every other part of the monologue, if in isolation. It was the hitting of Stan on multiple fronts, one building on the next and in exactly the right order, that did the trick. Which wasn't a trick.

I agree. With the caveats I mentioned right above this.

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I was trying to explain this to my husband (who is of the opposite point of view) - using the expression "two things can be true." I had to laugh, ultimately, because in our family I'm the hardened cynic and I completely bought it, and my husband is the nice guy who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt - and he's the one who didn't.

I think both viewpoints are this are pretty valid really. Stand alone? I bought it, and I loved it because it was an incredible scene, so well acted that I believed it. All kudos to Noah because holy hell that was hard to pull off. In interviews Rhys has said that Noah was in severe back pain, and they shot in that cold garage for over 9 hours. Did that help his performance? Maybe, but I'm chalking it up to skill, and he really deserves and Emmy for making that work.

In conjunction with the rest of the season though? No, it doesn't quite work for me. As I said, SO many deaths (WHY did the writers do that, was it a trick to make people want and think Elizabeth would die?) It just topples with the FBI deaths. Without those? Maybe.

Stan didn't have to kill them to immobilize them, and he would know to do it to both Elizabeth and Philip at the same time.

6 hours ago, shura said:

Right, but regardless of how sincerely Philip believes in what he is saying, it is simply not true that this last mission is finally, after all these years, something that is actually of consequence. To Philip's feelings maybe, but not to Stan or even to Elizabeth. Everything they did has done real damage to the US and its people. You think Philip does not realize that as he is EST-bombing Stan with his "weaponized sincerity" (love the phrase) in an effort to get Stan to let them go? Maybe, I don't know. It's hard to imagine that, when he lists "following Americans, recruiting Americans, being afraid of Americans", he forgets to include the "killing Americans" part because he sincerely doesn't remember about it at that moment. It is something that has been bothering him, how can he forget? No, he is choosing what to say and what to omit. It is manipulative.

I think Philip was sincere in that. He didn't do all of this all these years just for the USSR, he believed or wanted to believe he was doing it for the good of the WORLD. That eliminating poverty, classes, and war for the entire world was the only way, and that the way to do that was to continue the Bolshevik cause. It crushed him when he heard from William that "THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING." and "they can't even make a proper cap to fit on a bottle for bio-weapons." It crushed him when he heard that Russian father tell him the realities in Russia now last season. It crushed him when he realized he killed an innocent scientist that was just trying to make better wheat. "Why can't WE do that?' It CRUSHED him when the soviets used that terrible bioweapon against people, instead of, as they said, using it as defense or to find an antidote. All of those things piled up on him over the years, and many more. They resulted in him quitting.

With THIS? He was actually, finally, doing something to "save the world" in reducing nuclear weapons, and in making daily life easier for the people back home with Gorbachev's modernization. This was the first mission that would actually help his people, and the world.

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Just so you're not feeling too much in the minority, my experience of the scene was really not getting anything from it either. It didn't feel real to me like, for instance, the desert scenes in Ozymandias. Intellectually I can see what's supposed to be going on, but I really don't feel like this ending for Stan is organic at all. Part of me feels like a shoot out with them both dead would have been more believable--although I do totally buy the endings for Paige and her parents. And I can believe Stan lying to Aderholdt after the deed is done.

Stan's ending is up in the air along with all of our characters. I honestly can't see Stan NOT confessing to all he's done, if he doesn't, I can't see him continuing to work with the FBI. Under NO circumstances can I envision Stan risking another KGB penetration of the FBI, so he has to tell them about Renee, or take her out himself after trapping her.

Stan's a decent man, and proud of being an FBI agent. He's doing it to "save the world" just like Philip was. That's the part I believed about that garage scene, that like recognized like. Just as he did with Oleg, he believed that all the fucked up stuff Philip had done was based on Philip trying to do the right thing. People aren't perfect, and God knows spy agencies and spies aren't perfect. That's the part where Stan and Philip could relate honestly to each other in that garage.

Stan still would have shot them both in the legs and called for back up though.

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

I have no problem with where everbody ended up. Even Paige. She's not too sharp, so why shouldnt she go back to the safehouse, and start drinking vodka? I just wish a different path had been written for them to get there

That scene made total sense to me. Paige was always going to go home, as Paige, because if she didn't? Henry would be alone, and so would Paige. So she makes it all the way home, in the disguise. She knows her mom and dad's place are by now crawling with FBI, as is her apartment, and Henry's school. Where else would she go? She knows she will have to face the music with the FBI, but she's been traveling for many hours. She goes to the safe house to breathe, to think. She has a shot of vodka (wouldn't you?) to get herself together to face it all. To change back into "Paige."

Did she wonder if Claudia would be there? An adult she liked to tell her what to do? Maybe. When she wasn't though? Paige had the drink, and a bit of time to think about just what she would say and do under questioning from the FBI.

4 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

Count me with the ones disappointed. I felt the whole last two episodes kinda went off the rails. It began with the flashback where teenage Elizabeth is told to always be true to herself. I groaned aloud: OH COME ON. What a joke. Give me a break. Did they join hands then and sing Kumbaya?

I was expecting some kind of emotional breakdown from Elizabeth -- they'd been signaling it all season. She had blood up to her fucking elbows in this last few days/weeks, some of the most horrific killing she's ever done. How much is too much? They'd built up a solid narrative arc with the dying artist, yet she is so unmoved by this woman's death/murder/suicide, she calmly photographs sensitive documents while the husband grieves. I guess her change of heart about her mission was the result. All that agonizing, staring into the distance. But when it came, I didn't buy it for a minute. Her sudden realization she was fighting the wrong people didn't work for me at all, especially after the really vicious arguments between herself and Philip. She was even more bought-in than ever.

I didn't buy anything concerning Stan. I didn't buy how suddenly he starts suspecting his best friend, after all these years. I didn't buy him sneaking off in the middle of a major operation to go do some random stuff. I certainly did not buy him letting them go, not for one minute. Up until the time they left, I kept thinking he would shoot someone in the leg. I kept thinking of poor Nina. He sure did forget about her, didn't he? And John Boy Walton.

Didn't buy the coincidence with Paige witnessing the young intern's drunken meltdown, and her reaction.

I didn't buy Agent Aderhold breaking down the priest.

I did enjoy them trotting out all these people who knew their secret and kept their secret, including Pastor Idiot in Argentina. One of the truly nice moments was where Philip realizes the Russian guy at work had them pegged all along. But after all the incredible shit P&E did, this is what Philip's losing sleep about? Laying off people at work? There should be a drinking game for the final season where you take a shot each time Philip is poking his adding machine staring at papers. He sure didn't get much to do all season until these last couple episodes. A real disappointment, since he was by far the best actor of the crop, in my opinion.

Margo Martindale got the best scene, imo. She was consistently great, and her character was true to itself.

I honestly could not keep track of why the FBI was investigating who for what, and by that point I really didn't care.

P&E's escape and all that came after seemed like just so much hokum. This show deserved a better ending. I agree with those who say it should have ended after season 3 or 4. Season 5 was a TOTAL waste of time, and this season was all just build-up for the finale. They could have done this in 2-3 episodes. Most of these episodes felt like padded-out music videos, with storylines that were just rehashing old material that had been handled better earlier. I really really got sick of that.

As their cover came unraveled and the turmoil back in the USSR (Beatles song!) became evident, all of the shit that kept them propped up disintegrated, P&E found themselves unsure of who was friend or enemy. I expected Philip would turn himself in to Stan and go into Witness Protection, that Elizabeth would refuse, and they would literally have to go their separate ways. I expected Philip's moment of truth would be deciding whether to turn in his wife or protect her until she could escape. I think she would have gone back to Russia, but Philip would stay with the kids and do his best to try to create some kind of decent life for them. Elizabeth would become a factory manager in Kiev and would be too proud to ever admit she'd been wrong about anything, including leaving her husband and kids. In fact, in my own mind, that is how I'll end their story.

I agree, or at least certainly see why you think this, very good points made.

The only place I disagree is the Priest. He wasn't KGB proper, he was just an agent they were just beginning to use. A Martha. Aderholt's breaking of him was textbook perfect. He was Gabe's guy and Gabe passed him off to Philip, with the warning that he was just beginning and to be very careful with him, especially about trusting him. He was a "possible" not a sure thing like Marilyn.

52 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

There's so much to reflect upon with this finale. We all waited for the REVEAL which was Stan finding out the truth. We all have our perspective on how totally bizarre Stan's reaction was or perhaps it was understandable. I wonder if there are any REAL KGB people who watched and maybe even comment on these boards! lol Just curious. We do see some pretty authentic responses. Makes you wonder.......

If you mean "former KGB" rather than current? We do know that at least two of the KGB (I'm not bothering with the correct initials, which have changed many, many times over the years, they are all still KGB) spies caught in

Quote

2010 in the USA

do watch this show. They may comment on message boards, so who knows? Their sons who are currently fighting to get their Canadian Citizenship back (again) said they, and their parents do watch The Americans.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · June 2, 2018

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Stan's a decent man, and proud of being an FBI agent. He's doing it to "save the world" just like Philip was. That's the part I believed about that garage scene, that like recognized like. Just as he did with Oleg, he believed that all the fucked up stuff Philip had done was based on Philip trying to do the right thing. People aren't perfect, and God knows spy agencies and spies aren't perfect. That's the part where Stan and Philip could relate honestly to each other in that garage.

That's the part I believe the most--where he realizes that he really is the only person who knows about this coup in Russia that's actually very important. He knows Oleg and where his priorities are and I think he would like to think--really does think but how can he be confident about Philip now?--that Philip has the same values. This is like Oleg turning in William. It's not sounding the alarm for incoming missiles when the computers say they are. It's not telling the Centre about Haig and the nuclear football. It gives him a good American reason to let them go.

But as you say, this is much harder to believe with a pile of bodies including three FBI agents who just got plowed down a few weeks earlier and he's got very good reason to think Philip and Elizabeth were absolutely involved. He even knows about their beheaded and behanded colleague!

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

he goes to the safe house to breathe, to think. She has a shot of vodka (wouldn't you?) to get herself together to face it all. To change back into "Paige."

A nitpick but I believe Paige is already out of her disguise when she gets to the safe house. So she's been traveling openly as herself--but still, I agree, going to the apartment to decide what to do rather than going straight to her house or apartment. She probably wants to contact Stan privately. He's all she's got.

No idea if she was hoping for Claudia. We don't know what they said in the car--did her parents explain what the hell they were talking about with the coup and what they did? If so she might know Claudia was gone and not a friend.

Umbelina · June 2, 2018

You're right, she is out of her disguise. I wonder why I thought she was still in it?

I actually had to go check. Still, yes, she needed a few moments and a shot before she faced the cops, after a very long night of running, and then running back.

I wonder if she was hoping for Claudia too. Maybe she was, but when Claudia wasn't there? She realized that was probably for the best after all. Time to quit depending on others, and figure things out for herself. I do think she would have gone there, Claudia or no Claudia though. Where else could she go?

lidarose9 · June 3, 2018

Another general observation about this show: When it began in 2013, relations between the US and Russia were pretty much OK, and the show seemed kind of quaint, almost nostalgic. But things are VERY different now. Throughout this season, I found myself experiencing a lot of inner resistance to watching the show. I had to harden myself inwardly. I think I only did it cuz it was the last season and I wanted to see it through. But there is so much now that resonates with our current situation with Russia. It's fucking terrifying.

A woman I know from Russia remarked a few weeks ago that while Americans see Gorbachev as a heroic figure, people in Russia at the time thought he was insane. The whole good guys vs. bad guys thing, we've seen plenty in my own lifespan (I am 61) to know how often things are not what they seem. Everybody in this show believed they were acting for the greater good. Right now I've never been so afraid in my whole life, not even during the Bad Old Days this program portrays. It's all too real.

Penman61 · June 3, 2018

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder if there are any REAL KGB people who watched and maybe even comment on these boards! lol Just curious. We do see some pretty authentic responses. Makes you wonder.......

This is EXACTLY what a spy would say...

MJ Frog · June 3, 2018

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I do think she would have gone there, Claudia or no Claudia though. Where else could she go?

I was wondering why she didn't go back to her apartment. No one but Stan knew she was on the run, so why not go back and keep her mouth shut? Or at most make up a story about meeting her parents to say goodbye before they went back to Russia because it turns out they were -- you'll never believe this -- spies!

Umbelina · June 3, 2018

2 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I was wondering why she didn't go back to her apartment. No one but Stan knew she was on the run, so why not go back and keep her mouth shut? Or at most make up a story about meeting her parents to say goodbye before they went back to Russia because it turns out they were -- you'll never believe this -- spies!

Believe me, by then? The FBI knew. They looked at those last sketches, remember?

companionenvy · June 3, 2018

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

We don't KNOW what happens to them in Russia though. We do know Arkady is afraid for his life because he opposed the Coup. We do know Claudia is furious that Elizabeth and Philip helped derail the Coup. We do know that Arkady's boss and several other hugely powerful government officials were FOR the Coup, and we also know that Gorbachev doesn't even have the power to save Oleg. Bullets in Philip and Elizabeth's brains and very soon are a very likely outcome. Ditto for Oleg's dad if they decode the phone messages. Those people are not going to let this go. The same people do get Gorbachev out in 1991, even though Communism and everything they believe in, including the USSR fails. Why? Because of Oleg, Arkady, Elizabeth, and Philip in great part.

We don't know that the characters in any story aren't going to get hit by a bus and die the next day. But while it may be a weakness of the finale that it totally drops the idea that Elizabeth and Philip might be in as much danger from the KGB as they are from the FBI, in this final episode, there's really no indication that this is or should be a concern. They have no trouble getting over the border; Arkady doesn't tell them to watch their backs; the entire focus is on whether or not they can "get used" to being home. So, I'll take points off for the unrealistic ignoring of what should be a significant source of danger, I don't think their ending as written warrants concern that they're going to be executed tomorrow.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

That scene made total sense to me. Paige was always going to go home, as Paige, because if she didn't? Henry would be alone, and so would Paige. So she makes it all the way home, in the disguise. She knows her mom and dad's place are by now crawling with FBI, as is her apartment, and Henry's school. Where else would she go? She knows she will have to face the music with the FBI, but she's been traveling for many hours. She goes to the safe house to breathe, to think. She has a shot of vodka (wouldn't you?) to get herself together to face it all. To change back into "Paige."

Did she wonder if Claudia would be there? An adult she liked to tell her what to do? Maybe. When she wasn't though? Paige had the drink, and a bit of time to think about just what she would say and do under questioning from the FBI.

See, Paige is the one person whose ending I DO think is really ambiguous, because I'm not sure that her next step there is calling Stan and reuniting with Henry. She's already, in a sense, provided for Henry by telling Stan to look out for him, and might reason that her own reemergence would only complicate things for everyone. I am confident that Paige doesn't wind up in jail - but whether she's planning on trying to live an anonymous life somewhere or preparing to face the music with Stan's help is anyone's guess. There's a reason her last scene isn't her showing up at Stan's doorstep.

I assume Claudia would have come up at some point during the escape, and that Paige thus knew she wasn't going to find her.

MJ Frog · June 3, 2018

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Believe me, by then? The FBI knew. They looked at those last sketches, remember?

Oh they definitely knew mom and dad were spies -- but she could feign surprise as part of her cover story. They knew she wasn't at her apartment, but I think she could plausibly say she met with them, but didn't run.

Edited June 3, 2018 by MJ Frog

Umbelina · June 3, 2018

I think all the "endings" are ambiguous. I think that's lazy writing.

I also don't know why Paige's mom and dad would suddenly start being honest with her, they never have been before. "Hey Paige, we just pissed off half of the KGB, and a great deal of the leaders of the Soviet Union, military included, oh, and by the way, Claudia is furious, so let's all go to Russia and face Lubyanka or a sniper's bullet! It'll be cool...promise!"
"

1 minute ago, MJ Frog said:

Oh they definitely knew mom and dad were spies -- but she could feign surprise as part of her cover story. They knew she wasn't at her apartment, but I think she could plausibly say she met with them, but didn't run.

Paige can't lie remember? The show has drummed that into us over and over again. So now, idiot naive Paige is going to be able to fool skilled, trained, and relentless FBI interrogators? Sure.

sistermagpie · June 3, 2018

Just have to share something a friend said to me that I loved. She said she hoped that if the FBI raided all their places and found all their costumes that they could donate them to a theater company.

Then we imagined a high school or community group just going crazy with all the stuff. Everybody would suddenly go over the top with their costumes, deciding their characters had birthmarks or limps or grey hair. They'd have so many choices they wouldn't even know what play to put on they'd have so many options.

But they'd go with Chekhov just as a thank you.

We were also agreeing that they managed to come up with one of the most Chekhovian last lines ever. Elizabeth might as well have ended he show by telling Philip, "We will work."

15 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

but whether she's planning on trying to live an anonymous life somewhere or preparing to face the music with Stan's help is anyone's guess. There's a reason her last scene isn't her showing up at Stan's doorstep.

I don't know what exactly would happen but I think by having her come back to DC out of disguise they have to be saying she's going to live her life and not planning on living in hiding. She's in DC as herself which means she's going to be talking to the FBI.

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think all the "endings" are ambiguous. I think that's lazy writing.

I also don't know why Paige's mom and dad would suddenly start being honest with her, they never have been before. "Hey Paige, we just pissed off half of the KGB, and a great deal of the leaders of the Soviet Union, military included, oh, and by the way, Claudia is furious, so let's all go to Russia and face Lubyanka or a sniper's bullet! It'll be cool...promise!"
"

I don't think Paige would be able to sustain a lie but it does actually make sense that her parents would have just started being honest with her because they were taking her to Russia. She could tell them they picked her up and they were running away and taking her with them. She decided not to go when she understood the situation. That's if she was going to lie, which I don't think she'd be able to do well. She didn't even let her parents lie for her to Stan.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

MJ Frog · June 3, 2018

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Paige can't lie remember? The show has drummed that into us over and over again. So now, idiot naive Paige is going to be able to fool skilled, trained, and relentless FBI interrogators? Sure.

Well, she better start learning. How the hell was she EVER going to be a spy? Does she have to submit to FBI questioning without a lawyer? If not, then she needs to follow my original advice and lawyer up and shut up.

Umbelina · June 3, 2018

Well, we'll never know, since the show didn't bother to tell us. It's all speculation now, about every single character we invested in for 6 years.

Instead, they dug holes and watched wheat grow.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

Colleenna · June 3, 2018

54 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

This is EXACTLY what a spy would say...

Nyet. I mean, no.

kokapetl · June 3, 2018

Holly Taylor is of the opinion that Paige got off the train as a rejection of her parents, that she ultimately didn’t trust them.

Umbelina · June 3, 2018

That's why The Americans Part Two thread could be fun. Any future could be true for any of them, the writers left it all completely up to the viewers to decide the endings.

The more I think about it, the whole Renee story line was kind of a distraction from that. We all, at first, focused on Renee not getting a resolution. In fact, not one single character got one.

So, all speculations are equally valid.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

We don't know that the characters in any story aren't going to get hit by a bus and die the next day.

This is not like being "hit by a bus."

The show left every single character in peril, mortal and other perils. Very real perils above and beyond day to day living perils. Yes, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow, but it's unlikely a powerful group of Soviets, government, military, and KGB soviets are planning to kill me. It's also unlikely that I will be accused of Espionage as soon as I go home. It's also unlikely that I just betrayed my oath to the country and my job at the FBI. It's extremely unlikely that I will find out tomorrow that my parents were Soviet spies, and lied to me my whole life, and I won't be able to afford school, and every person I know will wonder if I'm KGB too.

ETA

I liked the episode very much, as I said earlier, I'd give it an A. As a series finale though? C+ is as far as I can go, after reflection.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

hellmouse · June 3, 2018

I think that while the writers did not give each character a definitive ending, they did indicate their intentions through how they showed the characters at the end. They set a tone.

They showed Stan speaking to Henry one-on-one in the stands of the hockey rink while the practice continued. They didn't show a team of FBI agents throwing him to the ice and cuffing him and then Stan talking to him in an interrogation room. The implication is that Henry is going to be physically safe and not alone for the immediate future.

They showed Philip and Elizabeth able to cross into the USSR and use a coded message at the border in lieu of documents. They meet Arkady, who apparently feels secure enough to drive alone, without armed guards, and even let them stop to look out on the city. They didn't show Philip and Elizabeth being detained at the border. They didn't show them having to get in the trunk of Arkady's car to hide. They didn't show Arkady wearing a disguise, or accompanied by security vehicles. The implication is that Arkady can provide enough security for Philip and Elizabeth's immediate future, and that their information will provide enough backup for Arkady for the immediate future.

They showed Paige alone. She is dressed as herself, back in her hometown. This seems risky and careless. We've never known Paige to be truly independent. So the implication is that Paige is going to do something we can't predict.

You're totally right that we don't know what will happen and that is what makes speculation fun - it's what makes fanfiction fun! But for me, in terms of the construct of the show, they were careful to set a tone with an implied future in the final scenes. But of course, OMMV and that is okay!

crgirl412 · June 3, 2018

The episode START is on at Midnight EST on Fx!!!!

MisterBluxom · June 3, 2018

On 6/1/2018 at 12:35 AM, Bannon said:

I'm always fascinated when reactions to an important scene are so wildly divergent.

The more I think about the garage scene, the more I come to the conclusion it was just LUDICROUS. Absolutely IDIOTIC. I could write a bunch more adjectives. But what's the point?

Umbelina · June 3, 2018

25 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I think that while the writers did not give each character a definitive ending, they did indicate their intentions through how they showed the characters at the end. They set a tone.

Yes, they set a tone of danger. With no resolve.

Paige may be imprisoned as a traitor/accessory to murder. Or, she may cut a deal and get out on probation. What she won't be able to do is convincingly lie to the FBI.

Stan may or may not risk the FBI being infiltrated by another KGB operative, Renee. He may or may not confess that he let them go. He may or may not be arrested. He may or may not be fired. He may or may not put a bullet in his brain because the people he loved, including his best friend and his wife deceived him, and he failed in his sworn duty to the USA and the FBI.

Henry may or may not face disgrace. He may or may not be able to continue in the school he loves. He may or may not, as an emotional young teen completely break down and turn to drugs, or be put in a group home.

Elizabeth, Arkady, and Philip may or may not be assassinated for bringing down the USSR. Arkady WAS afraid, he flat out said he was, the fact that they all remained calm, or that Philip and Elizabeth finally slept after days escaping, doesn't mean they felt "safe." It meant they were tired, and out of danger from the FBI, but certainly not out of danger in the USSR, or for that matter, from the CIA that might just be a tad pissed at all the US citizens, military, and cops they killed.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Umbelina

Cardie · June 3, 2018

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

We were also agreeing that they managed to come up with one of the most Chekhovian last lines ever. Elizabeth might as well have ended he show by telling Philip, "We will work."

But, hey, they do get to Moscow.

kokapetl · June 3, 2018

1 hour ago, MissBluxom said:

The more I think about the garage scene, the more I come to the conclusion it was just LUDICROUS. Absolutely IDIOTIC. I could write a bunch more adjectives. But what's the point?

No, it was amazing! Absolutely flawless!

anonymiss · June 3, 2018

12 hours ago, Bannon said:

I'd say creating a human being primarily for purpose of advancing your professional goals kind of makes you an asshole, even when you see your professional goals as an Important Cause. I'd say enlisting one of your children into criminal actvity, including murder, makes you an asshole, even when you really, really, really, really, believe that your political objectives makes murder an acceptable activity. I'd say lying to your child on a daily basis about the your life makes you an asshole, even when you think it is really, really, really important to lie.

This criteria necessitates believing they are "assholes" for what is involved in serving their country as spies in a time of war.

I can't reduce their parenting and patriotism to that black-and-white view, nor could any of the spies themselves, which is why they did what they did, and why Elizabeth thought it acceptable to enlist Paige and nurture her expressed need for political activism and greater meaning. It was manipulative to shield her from the gory details but I don't think it makes her an asshole parent, just a flawed one (and maybe even fairly typical only in the sense of selfishly wanting your child to follow in your footsteps).

Yes, before she became a parent Elizabeth didn't want to be one, but many parents all over the world do have children for utilitarian purposes. They may not want them initially but may grow to love them (like Elizabeth grew to love hers).

Maybe I should add that I am coming at this from the perspective of someone whose parents were abusive in every way. So when I see P&E I don't see "asshole parents;" I see non-asshole parents doing the best they can. I would have just stayed out of their business and had a life of my own.

companionenvy · June 3, 2018

5 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I think that while the writers did not give each character a definitive ending, they did indicate their intentions through how they showed the characters at the end. They set a tone.

They showed Stan speaking to Henry one-on-one in the stands of the hockey rink while the practice continued. They didn't show a team of FBI agents throwing him to the ice and cuffing him and then Stan talking to him in an interrogation room. The implication is that Henry is going to be physically safe and not alone for the immediate future.

They showed Philip and Elizabeth able to cross into the USSR and use a coded message at the border in lieu of documents. They meet Arkady, who apparently feels secure enough to drive alone, without armed guards, and even let them stop to look out on the city. They didn't show Philip and Elizabeth being detained at the border. They didn't show them having to get in the trunk of Arkady's car to hide. They didn't show Arkady wearing a disguise, or accompanied by security vehicles. The implication is that Arkady can provide enough security for Philip and Elizabeth's immediate future, and that their information will provide enough backup for Arkady for the immediate future.

They showed Paige alone. She is dressed as herself, back in her hometown. This seems risky and careless. We've never known Paige to be truly independent. So the implication is that Paige is going to do something we can't predict.

You're totally right that we don't know what will happen and that is what makes speculation fun - it's what makes fanfiction fun! But for me, in terms of the construct of the show, they were careful to set a tone with an implied future in the final scenes. But of course, OMMV and that is okay!

You've articulated what I've been trying to say better than I did - thanks!

For me, the crucial point is that this isn't real life; it is a story created by people with deliberate intentions. So to me, the tone of our final glimpses of these characters is what matters. To use a less extreme example than the possibility that a character is going to be hit by a bus the next day, I'll recall a character on the Wire who had spent the majority of the show in the grip of a serious drug addiction which had left him on the streets. In the last season of the show, he goes to AA and his last scene, in the final montage, is him dressed respectably, leaving the basement of his sister's home, where he is living, to join her family for dinner (she had previously not trusted him enough to let him come upstairs).

In real-world terms, the rate of relapse for recovering addicts, especially long-term ones, is incredibly high, and I'm not sure the show wants us to forget that entirely. But it is clear that this is supposed to be a hopeful ending for the character, rather than an inconclusive one - it is only inconclusive to the extent that there are never any guarantees.

The situation in the Americans is admittedly more extreme. But short of a final montage set some time significantly in the future, I'm not sure they could have offered a really satisfying wrap-up that answered all our questions, assuming they weren't going to kill off the characters. Even if P&E were in prison, it wouldn't be conclusive by the standards that people are applying to Oleg's ending, since there would be a chance that they'd be traded in a prisoner swap or given a deal in exchange for evidence.

I'm also not sure the Americans winds up being that much more inconclusive than a lot of other shows I can think of. In Breaking Bad, we don't know what is going to happen to Jesse after he takes off in that car ( and his position is at least as precarious as that of most of the characters in the Americans) and we don't know whether or not Skyler is going to be taken in as Walt's accomplice, although there's an implication she won't be. In Mad Men, we leave Peggy and Joan in pretty good places, but we can only guess at what Sally grows up to be, and even Don's fate is uncertain. We can make some good guesses from the final scene (I won't be more explicit because of how big a spoiler it is), but we don't know, for instance, whether he's going to step up as a father, or even whether he's actually learned anything: is this the ultimate sign of his spiritual poverty, or an indication that he's used a moment of clarity to return to his old life a somewhat better and more genuine man? To go to a very different genre, Battlestar Galactica brings the "find home" plotline that has been the driving goal of the show to a conclusion, but leaves the characters at the start of what is going to have to be a very difficult existence. There's no reason to believe that won't be facing the next crisis tomorrow. Even Friday Night Lights, which has a conclusion that almost everyone found satisfying, leaves plenty of characters fates up in the air. We know that Luke joins the army; not if he comes home. We don't know if Tim and Tyra are going to wind up together, or how and if Tim manages to rebuild his life. We don't know if Vince is going to make the most of his opportunities and get that scholarship.

kokapetl · June 3, 2018

Did the Soviet Union have wigs and makeup?

Helena Dax · June 3, 2018

The garage scene. I can see why other people, especially Americans, would dislike the resolution, but I still understand why Stan did what he did. Throughout the show we've seen several KGB operatives putting something else above their loyalty to their country. Nina chose her own dignity. Oleg chose a world without Russian bioweapons. Philip chose Kimmi's life and his own conscience. This time, Stan chose world peace and the Jennings over his country. If there was no safer way to pass along the info about Gorbachev, Stan did the right thing. (And tbh, if things had gone south in the garage, I wouldn't have bet my money on him. Elizabeth looked like a snake ready to lash and bite).

Also, it's been a couple of days now and I still love that ending.

Milburn Stone · June 3, 2018

10 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Holly Taylor is of the opinion that Paige got off the train as a rejection of her parents, that she ultimately didn’t trust them.

My first reaction is to scoff, because although that motivation is in there somewhere, there's so much else going on with Paige in that moment. (Inability to see a future in Russia that isn't hellish, reconnection with the fact that she is inescapably American at her core, devotion to her brother, guilt over her complicity that drives her to seek expiation rather than escape, and probably five more reasons at least, which is why the moment is so dramatically rich.) But I suppose distrust of her parents is at the root of everything. If she trusted her parents, that would necessarily mean that she believed them when they said, "Trust us, you're going to be fine." And she didn't.

companionenvy · June 3, 2018

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

The garage scene. I can see why other people, especially Americans, would dislike the resolution, but I still understand why Stan did what he did. Throughout the show we've seen several KGB operatives putting something else above their loyalty to their country. Nina chose her own dignity. Oleg chose a world without Russian bioweapons. Philip chose Kimmi's life and his own conscience. This time, Stan chose world peace and the Jennings over his country. If there was no safer way to pass along the info about Gorbachev, Stan did the right thing. (And tbh, if things had gone south in the garage, I wouldn't have bet my money on him. Elizabeth looked like a snake ready to lash and bite).

Also, it's been a couple of days now and I still love that ending.

I wish I could see it as you did; if I believed Stan's primary motivation was making sure word about the coup got out, I'd be a lot more forgiving. But they way they framed it, that was just icing on the cake; Stan let them go, it seemed pretty clear, because of his friendship with Philip.

There were also other ways of passing along information about the coup. Last week, Oleg seemed to think Stan passing the message on himself was a legitimate option; that's something I could totally buy Stan doing. If he wanted to go through more official channels, he could also have told his superiors that both Oleg and Philip had claimed knowledge of a coup against Gorbachev, who it was in the US's interest not to be deposed by hardliners. This may or may not have worked - either the Americans or the Soviets could have distrusted the information and declined to intervene, or acted to slowly -- but it was another possibility. It also seems to me that Elizabeth's killing of Tatiana should have been a very big hint to Gorbachev's people that something was amiss, even if no other message had been received, decreasing the urgency somewhat.

Also, once again, Stan really has no reason to trust Philip. Philip independently coming up with the story about the coup gives credence to what Oleg says, but it is no guarantee that Philip and Elizabeth are actually on Oleg's side. If Philip knows about the possible coup, and supports it, it would still be in his interest to lie and pretend he and Oleg and, more or less, Stan are all on the same side on this. Stan has some reason to trust Oleg, who never really lied about who he was and had proven himself a fundamentally decent man who was sometimes willing to put what he saw as the good of the world against his leaders' vision of national interest. Whereas Philip Jennings is a total lie. Stan simply shouldn't believe pretty much anything he says, which is all in line with what a master manipulator who has just been found out would say as he bargained for his life. Just because we might believe there's some sincerity mixed in there doesn't mean that Stan should, unless he's an idiot.

EtheltoTillie · June 3, 2018

5 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I wish I could see it as you did; if I believed Stan's primary motivation was making sure word about the coup got out, I'd be a lot more forgiving. But they way they framed it, that was just icing on the cake; Stan let them go, it seemed pretty clear, because of his friendship with Philip.

There were also other ways of passing along information about the coup. Last week, Oleg seemed to think Stan passing the message on himself was a legitimate option; that's something I could totally buy Stan doing. If he wanted to go through more official channels, he could also have told his superiors that both Oleg and Philip had claimed knowledge of a coup against Gorbachev, who it was in the US's interest not to be deposed by hardliners. This may or may not have worked - either the Americans or the Soviets could have distrusted the information and declined to intervene, or acted to slowly -- but it was another possibility. It also seems to me that Elizabeth's killing of Tatiana should have been a very big hint to Gorbachev's people that something was amiss, even if no other message had been received, decreasing the urgency somewhat.

Also, once again, Stan really has no reason to trust Philip. Philip independently coming up with the story about the coup gives credence to what Oleg says, but it is no guarantee that Philip and Elizabeth are actually on Oleg's side. If Philip knows about the possible coup, and supports it, it would still be in his interest to lie and pretend he and Oleg and, more or less, Stan are all on the same side on this. Stan has some reason to trust Oleg, who never really lied about who he was and had proven himself a fundamentally decent man who was sometimes willing to put what he saw as the good of the world against his leaders' vision of national interest. Whereas Philip Jennings is a total lie. Stan simply shouldn't believe pretty much anything he says, which is all in line with what a master manipulator who has just been found out would say as he bargained for his life. Just because we might believe there's some sincerity mixed in there doesn't mean that Stan should, unless he's an idiot.

Yes, to all you said, yet I still liked the finale. In those moments, we all had a million thoughts going through our heads, as did the characters. You can debate this forever, which is what made it great. I could say, as I did as I watched, "I can't believe it!" and "Wow, that makes some sense," at the same time. I think the showrunners did a good job overall, despite flaws.

Edited June 3, 2018 by GussieK

SunnyBeBe · June 3, 2018

12 hours ago, Penman61 said:

This is EXACTLY what a spy would say...

Too funny. I've heard that Putin says, Once KGB, always KGB. lol

I'm not sure what those types of agents are called today. I would assume they still have them doing that type of work.

Bannon · June 3, 2018

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I wish I could see it as you did; if I believed Stan's primary motivation was making sure word about the coup got out, I'd be a lot more forgiving. But they way they framed it, that was just icing on the cake; Stan let them go, it seemed pretty clear, because of his friendship with Philip.

There were also other ways of passing along information about the coup. Last week, Oleg seemed to think Stan passing the message on himself was a legitimate option; that's something I could totally buy Stan doing. If he wanted to go through more official channels, he could also have told his superiors that both Oleg and Philip had claimed knowledge of a coup against Gorbachev, who it was in the US's interest not to be deposed by hardliners. This may or may not have worked - either the Americans or the Soviets could have distrusted the information and declined to intervene, or acted to slowly -- but it was another possibility. It also seems to me that Elizabeth's killing of Tatiana should have been a very big hint to Gorbachev's people that something was amiss, even if no other message had been received, decreasing the urgency somewhat.

Also, once again, Stan really has no reason to trust Philip. Philip independently coming up with the story about the coup gives credence to what Oleg says, but it is no guarantee that Philip and Elizabeth are actually on Oleg's side. If Philip knows about the possible coup, and supports it, it would still be in his interest to lie and pretend he and Oleg and, more or less, Stan are all on the same side on this. Stan has some reason to trust Oleg, who never really lied about who he was and had proven himself a fundamentally decent man who was sometimes willing to put what he saw as the good of the world against his leaders' vision of national interest. Whereas Philip Jennings is a total lie. Stan simply shouldn't believe pretty much anything he says, which is all in line with what a master manipulator who has just been found out would say as he bargained for his life. Just because we might believe there's some sincerity mixed in there doesn't mean that Stan should, unless he's an idiot.

Good grief, the KGB Rezidentura, in full disguise, and carrying an obvious assassination device, was just gunned down in public, while approaching Gorbachev's negotiater. Unless Gorbachev is as dumb as Stan (!), I think ol' Gorby is going to grasp something is amiss, no matter what Stan does, and no, it is not credible that Gorbachev would not be informed of this assassination attempt.

It's just another instance of these writers often lazily obscuring the logical consequences of widescale murderous violence.

EtheltoTillie · June 3, 2018

48 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Good grief, the KGB Rezidentura, in full disguise, and carrying an obvious assassination device, was just gunned down in public, while approaching Gorbachev's negotiater. Unless Gorbachev is as dumb as Stan (!), I think ol' Gorby is going to grasp something is amiss, no matter what Stan does, and no, it is not credible that Gorbachev would not be informed of this assassination attempt.

It's just another instance of these writers often lazily obscuring the logical consequences of widescale murderous violence.

I have to go with Bannon here. That was a major lapse. I thought it would figure into the finale. But I'm not going to sink fully into the Bannon bad-writing funk. LOL.

Clanstarling · June 3, 2018

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm also not sure the Americans winds up being that much more inconclusive than a lot of other shows I can think of. In Breaking Bad, we don't know what is going to happen to Jesse after he takes off in that car ( and his position is at least as precarious as that of most of the characters in the Americans) and we don't know whether or not Skyler is going to be taken in as Walt's accomplice, although there's an implication she won't be.

I used exactly these examples when debating the merits of the ending with my husband.

The debates have been interesting, and I think each point of view has been represented with valid reasoning.

As for the ultimate fates of everyone, I also think the tone in the end is supposed to tell us enough. For the most part, for me, it does.

Even so, a little wrap up "where are they now" would have been nice - perhaps set in current Russia/USA.

Bannon · June 3, 2018

3 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I have to go with Bannon here. That was a major lapse. I thought it would figure into the finale. But I'm not going to sink fully into the Bannon bad-writing funk. LOL.

You mock my affliction!!!!

SusanSunflower · June 3, 2018

Paige had spent the last 6 years keeping the secret and watching the secret (and her spy training) change her .... that moment was "existentially" a not-to-come-again opportunity, if not leap to "freedom"(arguable), but rather leap out of that cage. One of the issues I had with Paige's development was that "at the age when she should have been developing into her own person and adulthood" she had chosen to hitch her wagon to her mother .... and living in Elizabeth's shadow and under Elizabeth's direction wasn't EVER going to have a happy ending emotionally or psychologically for Paige (all that lying and killing and treason aside).

(In hindsight the contortions the writers went through to keep Paige "innocent" and without (arguable) blood on her hands was part of the failure of the character whose status as "dead wood" and "slow on the uptake" would have ended that charade of "training" years ago ... Paige wasn't just "bad" at spying, she endangered others .... whiff.)

Dev F · June 3, 2018

On 6/2/2018 at 10:00 AM, Bannon said:

What is believable about Paige acting as a lookout for a warehouse break-in, in which her mother shoots 3 people to death, and Paige never learns of the murders? Triple slayings at warehouse break-ins aren't newsworthy in the D.C. media market? Paige pays no attention to the local news?

I guess I still don't understand why we should by default think she was paying attention to the local news. To me that seems based on a particular reading of the character -- that she'd become this ideologically committed Communist with the deep interest in politics and current events -- that the series never validated. Certainly the reading that I ended up landing on, which sees Paige as a profoundly traumatized person who embraced a sanitized version of her parents' profession as the latest codependent way of mitigating her sense of weakness and loneliness, suggests a character who would in fact not go looking for sources of information outside her protective sphere of "honest" people she depends on for reassurance.

22 hours ago, shura said:

Right, but regardless of how sincerely Philip believes in what he is saying, it is simply not true that this last mission is finally, after all these years, something that is actually of consequence. To Philip's feelings maybe, but not to Stan or even to Elizabeth. Everything they did has done real damage to the US and its people.

And Philip admits that. "It was all just screwing people for . . . I don't even know for what." When he says "We finally . . . we actually got something," he's talking about seeing an upside for the first time, but he always saw the downside.

And of course it's also true that he was sanitizing things by not admitting to anything more egregious than "screwing people" and "recruiting Americans." The showrunners have talked about how of course Stan wasn't going to let them go if they just shrugged and said, "Oh, sure, we killed a whole buncha people." Philip is deliberately not telling the whole truth, but what he does share is very close to what he truly believes. So it's hard for me to consider it "one hundred percent manipulation."

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth, Arkady, and Philip may or may not be assassinated for bringing down the USSR. Arkady WAS afraid, he flat out said he was, the fact that they all remained calm, or that Philip and Elizabeth finally slept after days escaping, doesn't mean they felt "safe." It meant they were tired, and out of danger from the FBI, but certainly not out of danger in the USSR, or for that matter, from the CIA that might just be a tad pissed at all the US citizens, military, and cops they killed.

Arkady warned Igor of that possibility after Oleg was arrested, when he thought there was now no way to expose the hardliners' treachery. Philip and Elizabeth returning home with the information Oleg was supposed to obtain resolves that concern. Plus, we know that the conspirators didn't succeed in moving against their enemies, because the series reflects real history, and Gorbachev was not in fact deposed in 1987 for ceding Russian military secrets to the Americans.

As for more speculative concerns like "What if the CIA tries to kill them?" I don't know why we need to account for possibilities the series never invited us to consider. Indeed, unless the show ended with Philip and Elizabeth's deaths, I can't imagine a situation in which it would be impossible to imagine them getting killed in some retaliatory operation by one side or the other. So I don't know why the chosen ending should be considered a failure for not foreclosing outcomes that virtually no possible ending would foreclose.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Good grief, the KGB Rezidentura, in full disguise, and carrying an obvious assassination device, was just gunned down in public, while approaching Gorbachev's negotiater. Unless Gorbachev is as dumb as Stan (!), I think ol' Gorby is going to grasp something is amiss, no matter what Stan does, and no, it is not credible that Gorbachev would not be informed of this assassination attempt.

The assassination attempt was never supposed to a secret, though. The whole point of the conspiracy was to admit that the KGB killed Nesterenko but lie about why he was killed. So of course Gorbachev was going to learn that his negotiator was targeted and thus realize that some plot was afoot, but it wouldn't provide him with a specific defense against what they were planning.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Dev F

SusanSunflower · June 3, 2018

But the turmoil begins when the question as to who was that masked (wo)man (the Lone Ranger) who killed Tatiana and saved Nesterenko (and why/how was she so fortuitously in the right place at the right time ) .... (and how did she get away ...)

Bannon · June 3, 2018

16 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I guess I still don't understand why we should by default think she was paying attention to the local news. To me that seems based on a particular reading of the character -- that she'd become this ideologically committed Communist with the deep interest in politics and current events -- that the series never validated. Certainly the reading that I ended up landing on, which sees Paige as a profoundly traumatized person who embraced a sanitized version of her parents' profession as the latest codependent way of mitigating her sense of weakness and loneliness, suggests a character who would in fact not go looking for sources of information outside her protective sphere of "honest" people she depends on for reassurance.

And Philip admits that. "It was all just screwing people for . . . I don't even know for what." When he says "We finally . . . we actually got something," he's talking about seeing an upside for the first time, but he always saw the downside.

And of course it's also true that he was sanitizing things by not admitting to anything more egregious than "screwing people" and "recruiting Americans." The showrunners have talked about how of course Stan wasn't going to let them go if they just shrugged and said, "Oh, sure, we killed a whole buncha people." Philip is deliberately not telling the whole truth, but what he does share is very close to what he truly believes. So it's hard for me to consider it "one hundred percent manipulation."

Arkady warned Igor of that possibility after Oleg was arrested, when he thought there was now no way to expose the hardliners' treachery. Philip and Elizabeth returning home with the information Oleg was supposed to obtain resolves that concern. Plus, we know that the conspirators didn't succeed in moving against their enemies, because the series reflects real history, and Gorbachev was not in fact deposed in 1987 for ceding Russian military secrets to the Americans.

As for more speculative concerns like "What if the CIA tries to kill them?" I don't know why we need to account for speculative possibilities the series never invited us to consider. Indeed, unless the show ended with Philip and Elizabeth's deaths, I can't imagine a situation in which it would be impossible to imagine them getting killed in some retaliatory operation by one side or the other. So I don't know why the chosen ending should be considered a failure for not foreclosing outcomes that virtually no possible ending would foreclose.

The assassination attempt was never supposed to a secret, though. The whole point of the conspiracy was to admit that the KGB killed Nesterenko but lie about why he was killed. So of course Gorbachev was going to learn that his negotiator was targeted and thus realize that some plot was afoot, but it wouldn't provide him with a specific defense against what they were planning.

Because in 1987, you really couldn't live your life, in a major American city, without seeing local news headlines, and if you watched t.v. at all, or listened to radio, you were likely to see or hear the lead story teases on local news. Paige is a student at George Washington University, surrounded by young people with enough intellectual curiosity to be above average consumers of news media. George Washington is a breeding ground of hard core news junkies. Does she walk around all day, eyes closed, fingers jammed in ears, shouting "NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"?

Next, if you are serially involved in criminal operations likely to get attention from law enforcement, you really should pay attention to local news, because there is a nontrivial chance you will obtain intelligence useful to your ongoing criminal enterprise. Paige is supposed to be being trained to become an intelligence operative. Her mother should be telling her to read the Washington Post daily. The same way undercover CIA agents are trained to pay attention to local media. The job is about observing your local environment.

The point about the Rezidentura getting killed trying to assassinate the negotiater is that now Gorbachev has absolute knowledge of a KGB faction seeking to destroy Gorbachev's policies. It renders Oleg's communication somewhat superfluous, since that communication in large part was to warn Gorbachev that his negotiator was going to be killed by the KGB. Gorbachev now knows this, regardless of Oleg's communication.

companionenvy · June 3, 2018

31 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Because in 1987, you really couldn't live your life, in a major American city, without seeing local news headlines, and if you watched t.v. at all, or listened to radio, you were likely to see or hear the lead story teases on local news. Paige is a student at George Washington University, surrounded by young people with enough intellectual curiosity to be above average consumers of news media. George Washington is a breeding ground of hard core news junkies. Does she walk around all day, eyes closed, fingers jammed in ears, shouting "NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"?

Next, if you are serially involved in criminal operations likely to get attention from law enforcement, you really should pay attention to local news, because there is a nontrivial chance you will obtain intelligence useful to your ongoing criminal enterprise. Paige is supposed to be being trained to become an intelligence operative. Her mother should be telling her to read the Washington Post daily. The same way undercover CIA agents are trained to pay attention to local media. The job is about observing your local environment.

But I agree with @Dev F that Paige essentially was walking around with her fingers in her ears. There were points where I thought that Paige was unbelievably stupid this season, namely in her utter inability to comprehend the kind of desperate circumstances that Claudia and Elizabeth had experienced. But to me, it made sense that she had gone all in for the KGB even if it required deep denial, because over the past few seasons, we had seen her develop a kind of emotional Stockholm Syndrome when it came to her family.

After Paige found out that her parents were spies, she told Pastor Tim, one of the most important figures in her life. And the end result was the permanent souring of her relationship with Tim and Alice - and by extension, the other people in the church community -- as she was forced to report on them to her parents. So that avenue was closed off to her. In around the same time period, she wants to pursue her crush on Matthew, and that is ruined for her by her knowledge of her parent's profession as well. Obviously, she could have had other relationships that were less inherently fraught than her interactions with the pastor who knew the family secret and the son of an FBI agent, but I can see how Paige might have realized that as long as she could never share this earth-shattering secret with anyone, there was a limit to how close she could get to any significant other or even close friend. So embracing her parent's world becomes an emotional defense mechanism, and that's not even accounting for the natural desire to think your parents are righteous and, at the very least, not monstrous.

In these last two episodes, Paige's illusions are shattered on several levels, which is why I buy that she made the choice she did -- and that she's now, finally, mature enough to have a chance of escaping prosecution as an accomplice.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

And of course it's also true that he was sanitizing things by not admitting to anything more egregious than "screwing people" and "recruiting Americans." The showrunners have talked about how of course Stan wasn't going to let them go if they just shrugged and said, "Oh, sure, we killed a whole buncha people."

And that right there is confirmation to me for why this scene didn't work. Even if we ignore the fact that Stan has to be a moron to believe Philip, the pivotal scene of the series shouldn't depend on one of the main characters making a choice on totally false premises. Not if it is going to be played as the ultimate, perhaps even noble choice of the personal over the political, and not as the tragic downfall of the character.

SusanSunflower · June 3, 2018

yes, I was thinking ruefully that the closing music should have been Streisand singing "People" .... yes, it's 1964, but it's also "timeless"

Milburn Stone · June 3, 2018

14 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I was thinking ruefully that the closing music should have been Streisand singing "People" .... yes, it's 1964, but it's also "timeless"

That would have been HILARIOUS. Oh, the missed opportunity!

AllyB · June 3, 2018

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige can't lie remember? The show has drummed that into us over and over again.

She really can't. In the garage scene she didn't know that Stan was 99.9% on to them, she just knew he was very suspicious as to why both her parents would come to her apartment when she was 'sick' and was directing all his questions at her. There were so many obvious emergency reasons both parents would come be with a teenage daughter and automatically pretend she was sick if they ran into a neighbour. Reasons that would have caused Stan at least a few moments of embarrassment and doubt if Paige had lied about them. If she'd been assaulted, if she was pregnant, if they'd just taken her for an abortion and were taking her home to recover, etc. But she comes up with tummy ache. I know we can't usually think well on our feet when under pressure but she is an especially bad liar.

sistermagpie · June 3, 2018

9 hours ago, anonymiss said:

Maybe I should add that I am coming at this from the perspective of someone whose parents were abusive in every way. So when I see P&E I don't see "asshole parents;" I see non-asshole parents doing the best they can. I would have just stayed out of their business and had a life of my own.

Yes, this is a central issue that's come up before--is parenting defined by the day to day interactions or the overall circumstances? I don't think one can underestimate the trauma of the lie Philip and Elizabeth brought their kids into, but I also don't think that discounts them being loving, affectionate parents who had respect for their kids growing up. I don't agree with readings of them, also, that imply that because they were spies they were bad parents in a day-to-day way. Often running out at a moment's notice for work does not, for me, mean you're not raising your children well. There are so many garden-variety parents who hurt their kids badly and daily it seems like trying to simplify things in a way that goes against the premise of the show. If the Jennings were already so terrible that their kids didn't love or care about them what difference does it make that they're spies?

It's also funny since Philip and Elizabeth were also children and their experience of parenting was so much harsher. But it's also understand that they weren't entitled to the same kind of parenting as their own kids. But part of the reason they can handle this stuff is it's what they were used to as normal. Paige and Henry are used to a softer world that cares about them. When Henry says he knows his parents love him and think he's great he means it.

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

My first reaction is to scoff, because although that motivation is in there somewhere, there's so much else going on with Paige in that moment. (Inability to see a future in Russia that isn't hellish, reconnection with the fact that she is inescapably American at her core, devotion to her brother, guilt over her complicity that drives her to seek expiation rather than escape, and probably five more reasons at least, which is why the moment is so dramatically rich.) But I suppose distrust of her parents is at the root of everything. If she trusted her parents, that would necessarily mean that she believed them when they said, "Trust us, you're going to be fine." And she didn't.

I find Holly's answer to be the darkest of all Paige endings because it leaves her still stuck in her endless desire to find those perfect caretakers she lost not even when she found out the secret but when she got old enough to notice a weirdness about them. It implies to me at least that she's still not able to assess the situation in an objective way that isn't about her being taken care of by her parents. It makes me imagine her going off to continue her pattern, finding another authority figure with all the answers who will always be "honest" (like even Pastor Tim wasn't). In this scenario it's Elizabeth who grew up finally and broke the pattern, but not Paige.

I guess that would at least sort of fit with someone who is rather judgmental. It's harder for her than it is for some to accept people as flawed. Her mother, after all, had similar issues. She also had to see her mother as heroic for things she did that might have been hurtful to Elizabeth.

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I guess I still don't understand why we should by default think she was paying attention to the local news. To me that seems based on a particular reading of the character -- that she'd become this ideologically committed Communist with the deep interest in politics and current events -- that the series never validated. Certainly the reading that I ended up landing on, which sees Paige as a profoundly traumatized person who embraced a sanitized version of her parents' profession as the latest codependent way of mitigating her sense of weakness and loneliness, suggests a character who would in fact not go looking for sources of information outside her protective sphere of "honest" people she depends on for reassurance.

Exactly. I think that's exactly what the show showed us. The only time she was really shown paying attention to the news was when she first got into politics via Pastor Tim. At that point the news was safe since he was presumably using it himself to talk to the kids. He probably encouraged her to read the news and look for certain things. He was basically holding her hand as they went through the paper--and of course in his world reputable US newspapers are reputable US newspapers. This is what led to things like nuclear protests and writing letters to Ronald Reagan about Apartheid. The biggest disruption in her worldview came from the police not being sympathetic enough to nuclear protestors to not arrest them and noticing there were no black people in Falls Church.

Elizabeth stated openly that she didn't trust the news, that it was full of lies about the USSR. And Paige had never shown much of an independent interest in it--her performance at dinner in the premiere was quite OOC and maybe tied back to her constant interest in men and women as life partners. More and more it was clear that not only was Paige not really interested in the news, she was actively against learning too much. She was hanging around with kids who were political and rejecting whatever they were saying as them not knowing "the truth" because it conflicted with what Elizabeth and Claudia said--even though as we saw when she referenced it she didn't really get what they were saying either.

There's plenty of people who do this who aren't even in Paige's position. In fact there's plenty of parents who raise their children to distrust any "outsiders" when they talk about the world and discourage, for instance, higher education that challenges the views with which they grew up. Many of them consider themselves fabulous parents too!

I think maybe sometimes we underestimate the importance of one incident with Paige. We think about the trauma of her learning her parents' secret and having to lie. But what really sent her into a tailspin was the near-mugging (coupled with stuff that came before). Seeing Elizabeth murder someone was so traumatizing she was sleeping in her closet. She only said she started sleeping again when they got rid of Pastor Tim, at which point she also embraced her self-defense training for real. So yeah, I think she was taking refuge in her parents as security, trying to see their potential violence and connections to the KGB as protecting her in a benign way.

The mugging alone, I think, showed her that her mother was a killer--and what her mother was her father was (or at least he loved her for it). This was a situation where her mother was killing in self-defense and it was still horrifying for her. Was she made so afraid by the mugger's threat or her mother's violence? I think more the latter (the mugger didn't get a chance to get violent). Which again brings up her unknown reaction to Philip's sparring session. He's not terrorizing her in it, not beating her up or losing control. But he is giving her an experience of being helpless and vulnerable. He's revealing his strength in a moment that's not protective (even though that's his ultimate goal--to protect her).

Paige would be horrified at the Philip in the pilot who hunts down the creep from the mall and stabs him with a barbecue fork. Or the 10-year-old boy who beat a teenager to death. She doesn't like their ability to make the ruthless choice for survival, like leaving Henry behind.

After the warehouse murders, in fact, she's also giving us a heads up at how scared she is. She tells Elizabeth that when she's doing her job, acting as lookout, she's "into it" but...she doesn't know how she's going to sleep that night. She doesn't even know about the murders but is back to being stressed out.

In the end Martha had a clearer idea of what she was doing and what she was protecting by spying than Paige did.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Because in 1987, you really couldn't live your life, in a major American city, without seeing local news headlines, and if you watched t.v. at all, or listened to radio, you were likely to see or hear the lead story teases on local news. Paige is a student at George Washington University, surrounded by young people with enough intellectual curiosity to be above average consumers of news media. George Washington is a breeding ground of hard core news junkies. Does she walk around all day, eyes closed, fingers jammed in ears, shouting "NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"?

That's exactly what she was doing. Honestly, there are plenty of students at every college who have no interest in current events and don't know what's going on. Some of them are a lot more uninformed than Paige. Of course we can all see why Paige, as someone who's committing treason several times a week, ought to be interested in whether her crimes are being found out or if there's any trace of them but clearly Paige was not. She knew, at heart, that whatever was going on was probably worse than she imagined. She chose to see her mother as a brave hero who would make her one too. She's in the closet with a blanket over her head because she thinks this is the only way she can connect to people. She has to be a spy because only spies can know her big secret.

But it turns out her parents still have tons of secrets from her. Really, it's not even just secrets like "We actually kill people and fuck for work." Their whole relationship is a secret to her.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

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