S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[UGAmp]

I swear. If this show ends with P&E seemingly driving off into the sunset to safety, just to have Renee pop up from the backseat and slit their throats, I’m going to be seriously disappointed. With the number of times she’s been name dropped about her possible job at the FBI, she has to play some part but if it’s a last second shock as the screen fades to black, I’m going to be mad.

I never even considered they would try to go and get Henry and Paige to take with them, wherever they go. Maybe Paige since she knows stuff (and is a loose end who would fold like a lawn chair under interrogation) but let Henry be happy on his own like he has been for the last few years.

This show has had its ups and downs over the years but I’m really going to miss it. And the excellent conversation, history tidbits, and previous episode callbacks all of you posters provide! 

Edited May 25, 2018 by UGAmp

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, UGAmp said:

I swear. If this show ends with P&E seemingly driving off into the sunset to safety, just to have Renee pop up from the backseat and slit their throats, I’m going to be seriously disappointed. With the number of times she’s been name dropped about her possible job at the FBI, she has to play some part but if it’s a last second shock as the screen fades to black, I’m going to be mad.

I never even considered they would try to go and get Henry and Paige to take with them, wherever they go. Maybe Paige since she knows stuff (and is a loose end who would fold like a lawn chair under interrogation) but let Henry be happy on his own like he has been for the last few years.

This show has had its ups and downs over the years but I’m really going to miss it. And the excellent conversation, history tidbits, and previous episode callbacks all of you posters provide! 

 

So true. IMO, there are so many intellectuals around this topic. (Not me, but, others. lol)  

Are we having a party next Wednesday?  I'll bring the Champagne!  lol I'll be watching it back to back, but, can chat during the second round.  I realize others may be in different time zones, so that won't be possible for them. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Are we having a party next Wednesday?  I'll bring the Champagne!  lol I'll be watching it back to back, but, can chat during the second round.  I realize others may be in different time zones, so that won't be possible for them. 

Champagne?  Vodka and blinis with caviar!  

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

Champagne?  Vodka and blinis with caviar!  

Oh right! But, I don't drink liquor. Maybe, I will this time. lol   The food sounds awesome. 

[DrumJunkie]

2 hours ago, shura said:

BTW, what's so special about Claudia that she can't go and spray the guy with the cyanide herself? Or shoot him from a rooftop across the street? She is in on the coup plans, the excuse of having too few people doesn't work here.

It seems to me that Claudia doesn't want to get her hands dirty.  When she killed Patterson back in S1, that was personal.  Other than that and posing as family for the Clark and Martha Wedding, she hasn't been shown to do any other similar field work that I recall.  Also, note when Claudia is explaining to Elizabeth why she kept her in the dark on the dead hand and coup connection, the plausible deniability afforded to Elizabeth also works in Claudia's favor to shield her from the pro-Gorbachev leaders in the KGB.  As much as Claudia talked a big game about how much she suffered, her golden years haven't been a shining example of action and getting her hands dirty.

Also, I think an additional choice for Tatiana would be to re prove herself.  The bust of the bio-weapon plan stalled (or sunk) her career, and I'm sure she was eager to show her capabilities and impress the Center.  Plus, compared to Claudia, Tatiana could physically escape faster if she was made.

Edited May 25, 2018 by DrumJunkie

[Clanstarling]

Speaking of Claudia...when she talked about Elizabeth's "American children" with lip curling disdain, I wondered about her Soviet children who didn't want much to do with her when she went back. I am imagining that they are progressives. Which would be a beautiful irony.

[SunnyBeBe]

56 minutes ago, gunderda said:

So my question is.... What would have happened to Tatiana if she was actually able to fulfill her mission?  Would she be able to get away just as quickly as Elizabeth did?  Or was she essentially surrendering herself?   Same question if Elizabeth would have actually done it when she was suppose to. Killing a guy when 2 others surround him is a little different than killing 1 and being able to get away before anyone notices. 

It seems to me that Tatianna was hoping to use the device and walk away quickly, like E did.  The target's friends would have likely kneeled down to check on him when he collapsed, as they would have been in shock.  And if they got a glance of a lady in a blonde wig, it wouldn't have been directly related to her.  

The lack of security and all that hopping around in public, with no real security seemed odd to me.

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[DrumJunkie]

Other random observations form this episode:

I liked the way Philip side stepped to the left before going full speed - kinda like shifting into the fast lane on the highway.

I thought it was a good display of observation that Elizabeth knew the hit was about to go down, just by seeing the stride if Tatiana crossing the street.

When Oleg told Stan, "I can't.", it reminded me of Elizabeth saying the same to Philip in the S5 finale.  It shows how they were both duty bound to what they saw as a higher purpose than an immediate and self centered reprieve.

No mention of the pill.  The cyanide solution is still in play somewhere.

[benteen]

Elizabeth, Philip and Paige better hope that Henry doesn't pull a Jared on them.

I think Agent Wolf's finest moment came at the end of Season 4 when he gave Arkady that verbal smackdown after the death of Gaad that led to his expulsion.  As I recall, there was another guy there with Wolf who seemed to have authority over him.  That's probably the job that he has now.

[Clanstarling]

14 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

No mention of the pill.  The cyanide solution is still in play somewhere.

I still want it shoved in Claudia's mouth - though that's unlikely. Still, she should have one of her own, yes? But yes, Chekov's pill has to go off at some point in the next episode.

12 minutes ago, benteen said:

Elizabeth, Philip and Paige better hope that Henry doesn't pull a Jared on them.

I half believed Henry was already recruited unbeknownst to E and P - until the car conversation with Stan. Though that could have been a subtle Jared move. ;)

Edited May 25, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, stitcher73 said:

I thing I remember in the last episode (or the one before) they we watching ALL the russian priests in the area.  There can only be a few, right?

They specifically mentioned that there were ten Russian priests in the DC area. They were investigating them collectively, but they weren't surveilling all of them. They zeroed in on the one who seemed the most suspicious, and he in turn led them to Father Andrei.

I think people are overestimating the FBI's capacity to mount these massive surveillance operations. They're looking at ten priests, staking out at least a dozen garages (they mention that they have FISA warrants for "eleven of the garages," suggesting that there are more than that in total), and combing through a decade of used car sales. If they threw fifty agents at each target, they'd run out of agents before they ran out of targets to cover.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Claudia never does or says a single thing that hints about the ugliness of their life to Paige.  If Claudia had given Paige the idea about honeytraps or recommended that book and then Elizabeth denied it it would be one thing but as it is it's Elizabeth lying and being in denial and Claudia giggling over sneaking guys into the workers dorm.

That was Elizabeth's story. Claudia's story was about how she'd never had sex with anyone but her husband, but after he died at the beginning of the War, she had to sell her body for food because she was eating rats and starving. Like I said in the "Great Patriotic War" episode thread, it was hardly tee-hee Sex and the City talk.

And yes, you're right that Claudia never talks directly about honeytrapping -- but she does lay the groundwork for Paige to understand why someone would use sex for leverage and not think of herself as a whore. When push comes to shove, even Elizabeth recognizes that this is exactly what Paige never truly comprehended: "I had to fight. Always. For everything. People were killed, they died, all around me. If I had to give everything so that my country would survive, so that it would never happen again, I would do it gladly. We were proud to do whatever we could. Sex? What was sex? Nobody cared." It's ironic that she yells at Paige for not understanding all of this, and yet was super squeamish about it whenever Claudia or Paige tried to bring it up previously.

And the sad part is that if Elizabeth hadn't been so reluctant to engage Paige on these issues, she was actually pretty open to them. Like Paige said in their argument, she always knew when her mother was lying to her; she was asking about honeytrapping not because she wanted to be reassured that it was pulp-fiction nonsense, but because she wanted Elizabeth to be honest with her about what she already knew to be true. (I always thought it was significant that when Elizabeth told Paige about the scientist in Kansas she was working last season, Paige immediately assumed it was a man.) When Claudia sniffs that their work with Paige will now amount to nothing, it's not because she never believed in it, but because she saw, correctly, that there was a way to get through to the girl, but thinks Elizabeth's softness has now doomed her daughter to remain one of her "American children."

[stitcher73]

40 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I still want it shoved in Claudia's mouth - though that's unlikely. Still, she should have one of her own, yes? But yes, Chekov's pill has to go off at some point in the next episode.

I half believed Henry was already recruited unbeknownst to E and P - until the car conversation with Stan. Though that could have been a subtle Jared move. ;)

YES!!!!  I've thought this too...that Henry has already been recruited and E and P have no idea.  I think he will turn out to be the BIG SHOCK.  All this time he's been quietly watching, noting, biding his time.  The car conversation with Stan was a red herring.  

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, shura said:

It's most probably not what the writers intended, but in real life it could just very well be a classic example of Russian imitation of activity on Claudia's part. The out-of-touch higher-ups come up with a (stupid) idea and issue orders that everybody must follow without questioning (or else). So the middle management develops half-ass plans to implement the order, the people on the ground go through the motions of executing the plans, and nobody really cares whether the result is achieved or not, because the point is simply to demonstrate that everybody is doing something to follow the orders. 

For some reason, this reminded me of a tee shirt I saw the other day.  It featured two of the Star Wars stormtroopers, with the caption being, "Look busy.  Vader's coming."

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, stitcher73 said:

YES!!!!  I've thought this too...that Henry has already been recruited and E and P have no idea.  I think he will turn out to be the BIG SHOCK.  All this time he's been quietly watching, noting, biding his time.  The car conversation with Stan was a red herring.  

Yeah, that would be a shocker for sure.  Except that his chit chat with Stan possibly got the ball rolling to having his parents discovered.   And, why would the KGB keep Henry a secret from his parents? 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[stitcher73]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, that would be a shocker for sure.  Except that his chit chat with Stan possibly got the ball rolling to having his parents captured.  And, why would the KGB keep Henry a secret from his parents? 

They kept him a secret so he could spy on them.  Is it possible that his conversation with Stan was intended to get the ball rolling?  That the point is to capture them?  Maybe the center recruited Henry, told Henry his parents aren't playing along anymore and he's trying to get them caught and imprisoned rather than sent back to Russia and killed?    Oh!  I can't wait until next week!!!!!

Edited May 25, 2018 by stitcher73

[Sarah 103]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:41 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

In retrospect, E should have just claimed she had the flu, couldn't leave her bed AND all were barred from her bedroom to avoid contracting it. Tough to get by Henry, but, they could have had him camp out at Paige's apt to give mom more rest and keep him from being exposed to it.  And, they could have likely even gotten a doctor's script from a friendly doctor to confirm it, along with a prescription for her symptoms.  It would have prevented all this mess. 

I love this idea because it would have given us a moment of Paige and Henry alone, which is something I wanted to see for multiple seasons, since Paige was told the truth about thier parents. 

23 hours ago, jjj said:

This is a really good point.  There was smoking everyplace in the 1980s -- on planes, restaurants, classrooms (college, especially professors!), and the smell was very common.  Now, I immediately notice  cigarette smell.  Amazing difference. And I'll bet lots of smoking at the FBI offices.  

I agree, and I'm on the younger side for this board (born in the 1980s). I remember smoking sections in restaurants into the 1990s. When I was watched St. Elsewhere I was totally shocked to see people smoking in a hospital.

23 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Right but it's a business. They've never reported vandalism, loitering, noise complaints, an attempted break-in, anything the entire time they've been in business?

I could see possibly reporting vandalism, but I don't know what kind of neighborhood Dupont Circle was in the 1980s and earlier. I don't see someone breaking into a travel agency (what would a random person be trying to steal from a travel agency?) What kind of noise complaint? It seems like they're in a comercial area. Some type of nightclub/nightspot/club is going to open for business hours after the travel agency closes. 

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I need more Philip flashbacks before the show ends. We already know so much about Elizabeth, and we know so little about Philip. We know he was poor, we know he had to have extensive traumatizing sex training sessions, and we know that he had a girlfriend. Philip plays everything so close to the chest, I want some more of his inner workings and how his past affected him. 

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

this is why I want more Philip flashbacks! Despite all these years, and him being the more emotional and empathetic one, I feel like I know Elizabeth so much better than I know Philip. 

I totally agree with both of these comments. It's one of my biggest frustrations with the show. 

21 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, I suppose that if Stan really tried hard, they could arrange to have Oleg sent back to Russia with the explanation that he was taken into custody for his own protection, after the FBI gathered INTEL that there was a coup staged against Gorbachev and they were just being extra careful to detain him for his own safety.  BS, but, they could take the credit for discovering the coup and taking down the assassin!    I know...it's a stretch. 

This works for me. Everyone goes home happy and the FBI looks great. 

20 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I think $15,000 was a good amount of money in 1987, probably equivalent to about $30,000 today. Enough to get to Canada, buy plane tickets, and hide until they can leave. But not enough to live on forever.  

Wow. You're really good. Based on the inflation calculator I use the amount is $33,082.66 in today's money. 

8 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I don't know the capabilities of that database, but the fact that "Jennings, Philip" comes up as 6'2" black man is not automatically an indictment.  There might be one or two people by that name in the US.  Of course, this is way before Google and everyone looking up their own name.  Yes, as a matter of fact, I do have some namesakes.

Me too. I had the same thought. The only Philip Jennings that came up with a criminal record was clearly not Stan's neighbor, but a totally different person with the same name.

6 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Or, FBI gets to Henry first. This is my bet. Now, how to use Henry?

Henry doesn't know anything beyond what he's already told Stan, but they don't know what Henry knows. This could be fun, and by fun I mean awful for Henry. 

3 hours ago, Plums said:

I've seen a lot of confusion wrt the database search. It's a criminal background check database. Stan wasn't looking to see if they were using false identities, a la William, that wouldn't be something that would have popped up- It wasn't a database of All The Names. I don't know what he was thinking he'd find. Maybe he was hoping something would pop up in the Jennings history that would explain their suspicious behavior that was NOT soviet espionage, but just standard criminal activity. Like a drug bust or theft or something. 

I always wondered why Philip and Elizabeth didn't just lie to Paige and tell her they were drug dealers, because it was the 1980s and that would have answered most, if not all of her questions. 

3 hours ago, stitcher73 said:

As Philip was walking out of the park a woman was walking towards him with her purse facing Philip.  This is the same tactic that Paige used in the hotel to film Nesterenko.  She had a video camera in her purse taking pics.

Paige's bag didn't have a video camera, it was still pictures. 

49 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I half believed Henry was already recruited unbeknownst to E and P - until the car conversation with Stan. Though that could have been a subtle Jared move. ;)

I had the same thought. I liked the idea of Henry secretly being trained and recuited at the boarding school. Clearly that didn't happen, but it's fun to imagine Paige failing at spy stuff, while Henry's becoming the young superspy they had hoped Paige would be. 

[Plums]

9 minutes ago, Dev F said:

(I always thought it was significant that when Elizabeth told Paige about the scientist in Kansas she was working last season, Paige immediately assumed it was a man.)

That's a really cool layer of interpretation, because I just thought it was typical sexism of the time. Like, "oh, a scientist? must be a man because only men are scientists", but you're probably right too.

She's probably always known on some level that her mother uses sex as a spy, and I agree that her blow up at Elizabeth was more about the lying than just the sex, though obviously Paige, prudish American that she is, wasn't indifferent to the idea of sex being a tool in their espionage arsenal. But if her parents were honest with her from the start when she asked them point blank why she shouldn't be in a relationship with someone and also get information from them, that the reason why they didn't want her to spy on her boyfriends is because she didn't possess the psychological preparedness to deal with the emotional danger of that- for example if they told her something like "we once ran an agent who used sex to spy on a Pakistani intelligence officer, and she made the mistake of letting those lines blur and admitted to her target she was spying on him. Result being, he strangled her to death and we had to fold her naked corpse into a suitcase"(/jk), or something like that as an honest cautionary tale, she may not have been as attracted to spy work, but she also might not have been as angry at them. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Stan's chit-chat took an ominous turn after he got to the real questions --

Does the FBI have any jurisdiction over an American citizen who's living in a foreign country and isn't under criminal investigation? I'm thinking Pastor Tim wasn't compelled to answer any of Stan's questions. For all Stan knew, Pastor Tim could've immediately tipped the Jennings off, or at least Paige.

Quote

D.C. had a lot of murders then, but, no, people would not get gunned down in broad daylight, and elicit so little reaction.

Well today everyone would've either run or whipped out their cell phone and started recording. Back then running away or standing in shock would've been the only options unless you happened to be in law enforcement.

Philip was in amazing shape for his age. He was booking it when those younger agents were chasing him.

[lazylou]

3 hours ago, stitcher73 said:

As Philip was walking out of the park a woman was walking towards him with her purse facing Philip.  This is the same tactic that Paige used in the hotel to film Nesterenko.  She had a video camera in her purse taking pics.

Thanks, I did see that woman but failed to register the significance.  

[jnymph]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:46 AM, BingeyKohan said:

Confession: I found the Stan/Oleg whispering scene pretty hot.

LOL !  Glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.   

Elizabeth's character arc is too little too late for me.    Still want to see her snuffed out; then Philip can happily line dance his life away without her.

Edited May 25, 2018 by jnymph

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, that foot race was amusing to me on so many levels.  One thing that I thought was how those guys didn't appear to be in the best shape, especially one.  They were kind of keeping up, but, P did have a head start.  I do think that the agents have to regularly pass physical tests though, like being able to perform at a certain level in order to keep their FIELD position. Please chime in if you know.  I did date an FBI agent ONCE.  lol Seriously.  I was working in law enforcement at the time (in the 80's) and he was in town for a local case! He was from NY  I know....long story, but, we were set up for a date, since it was on a holiday. (New Year's Eve.)  He was a perfect gentleman and in GREAT shape. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[lazylou]

I wondered about Philip being able to outrun the younger men, but he did jog, apparently, and play handball regularly with Stan, so he stayed in shape.  Also, once out of sight he had the presence of mind to ditch the glasses and change hats.  And, has been said earlier was fortuitously dressed in layers.

[DrumJunkie]

Don't forget about the line dancing. lol  If he could scoot in boots, then surely he could run in shoes.  :)

[SunnyBeBe]

We'll see what Stan was really thinking, by his next moves. I'm just not too optimistic that Stan really sees the big picture most of the time. 

[Door County Cherry]

17 hours ago, jrlr said:

Was he the schlubby lawyer who McCoy et al seriously underestimated at first?

Yes.  

 

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, that foot race was amusing to me on so many levels.  One thing that I thought was how those guys didn't appear to be in the best shape, especially one.  They were kind of keeping up, but, P did have a head start.  I do think that the agents have to regularly pass physical tests though, like being able to perform at a certain level in order to keep their FIELD position. Please chime in if you know.  I did date an FBI agent ONCE.  lol Seriously.  I was working in law enforcement at the time and he was in town for a local case! He was from NY  I know....long story, but, we were set up for a date, since it was on a holiday. (New Year's Eve.)  He was a perfect gentleman and in GREAT shape. 

I'm sure they are in good shape but that wouldn't make them a good runner necessarily.  Plus, they had to keep an eye on him and people in the way.

[Chaos Theory]

I am so going to miss this show.  Even at its most problematic it still tops most other shows out there and I would put it in my top list of shows of all time.  

I am still hoping for some sort of pessimistic ending because I always felt that was the way this show rolled.  I am also hoping for some sort of redemption or anti-redemption for Paige because I am still strongly in her corner despite her hissy fit this episode.  Holly Taylor is most definitely going on my watch list.  I hope to see her on something fun soon.

I loved How Elizabeth and Claudia went full circle.  One of the long running questions was if Elizabeth could trust Claudia turns out the answer is she can’t and probably never could.  Still Claudia eats soup like a boss.  

I really thought Philips chase scene was going to end with Stan catching him.  

 

Poor Tatiana.  Getting gunned down in the street like that with your wig off.  At least you still have your head and hands and weren’t packed into a suitcase.

 

We all need to start a dead pool for the finale.  Someone is gonna end up buying it.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, I'm going to miss it.  I witch about it a lot, but, it's still my favorite drama on tv.  

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I'm sure they are in good shape but that wouldn't make them a good runner necessarily.  Plus, they had to keep an eye on him and people in the way.

That is true. It's been a constant source of amazement to me over my years of daily aerobic and strength training that being generally fit doesn't always translate in giving you endurance, speed, or strength for other forms of exertion.

[SunnyBeBe]

Plus, I suppose we can't ignore how P's adrenaline likely took him to a speed that he was surprised at.  He likely knew that his ass was seconds away from being taken down.  Either shot or arrested. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Plums]

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am so going to miss this show.  Even at its most problematic it still tops most other shows out there and I would put it in my top list of shows of all time.  

I so agree. The only real dramatic misstep of the entire series, for me personally, was the Jared reveal in the s2 finale. The idea behind that entire plot was great, but the execution of the twist reveal was so hilariously awful and narm-y, and it all could have been resolved if it wasn't a neck wound. There have been some really fantastic dying monologues on this show, but that was not one of them, lol. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, there have been some things that caused me to eye roll over the years.  Perhaps, my favorite was E crawling around the ceiling of a garage like a spider, while others stood totally unaware right below her. lol 

[dubbel zout]

49 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Does the FBI have any jurisdiction over an American citizen who's living in a foreign country and isn't under criminal investigation? I'm thinking Pastor Tim wasn't compelled to answer any of Stan's questions. For all Stan knew, Pastor Tim could've immediately tipped the Jennings off, or at least Paige.

I think Stan was counting on Tim being a Man of God and at least if not answering honestly, not outright lying. We saw Tim tap-dance around the truth about the Jennings, but he never said anything blatantly untrue. I doubt Tim would have tipped off anyone, given how wary he would now be about his safety. Why remind anyone he was still around?

And no, Tim wasn't compelled to answer any of Stan's questions, but his refusal would likely be a red flag.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I so agree. The only real dramatic misstep of the entire series, for me personally, was the Jared reveal in the s2 finale. The idea behind that entire plot was great, but the execution of the twist reveal was so hilariously awful and narm-y, and it all could have been resolved if it wasn't a neck wound. There have been some really fantastic dying monologues on this show, but that was not one of them, lol. 

One of the problems was the storyline came out of nowhere looking back I might have had the 2nd Russian family appear in more then one episode before they get gunned down and even have the son and the young Russian handler girl appear more often as more then just problems for P&E to deal with.  Hell have her get a little to close to Paige at one point forshadowing the 2ndgen idea.  But yeah ultimately the biggest issue was the grand speech by the boy at the end.  

Edited May 25, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Claudia was super gung-ho about Paige being a second-gen spy, though. Wouldn't she want Paige to succeed? Paige is so mediocre I can't believe Claudia is okay with her, especially after spending some time with her and seeing who she is. 

I kind of see this as feasible, but Paige has been so unsuited to spying that I feel it's dangerous to keep training her. She's been lucky so far that her stupid mistakes haven't hurt her or anyone she's working 

I think Claudia would have been gung ho on anything the Centre wanted her to be. I'm sure she wanted Paige to do well. But I don't think she had Elizabeth's personal need for Paige to get it or her. I think she'd be able to treat Paige as a person to be managed. And if Elizabeth is in denial she's possibly giving Claudia glowing reports without really thinking of herself as lying.

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

 

That was Elizabeth's story. Claudia's story was about how she'd never had sex with anyone but her husband, but after he died at the beginning of the War, she had to sell her body for food because she was eating rats and starving. Like I said in the "Great Patriotic War" episode thread, it was hardly tee-hee Sex and the City talk.

 Paige will now amount to nothing, it's not because she never believed in it, but because she saw, correctly, that there was a way to get through to the girl, but thinks Elizabeth's softness has now doomed her daughter to remain one of her "American children."

The story about sneaking boys into the workers dorms was Claudia's story. I think you were thinking of Elizabeth's story about the boy who had sex with her couch. :-) 

But yes Claudia did talk about sex for food. Elizabeth didn't use that as a jumping off point to talk about sex on the job but she didn't shut Claudia up either. She said she and her mom ate rats. Claudia didn't try to go back to sex for info either. 

I just don't see any story where Claudia is doing one thing and Elizabeth is undoing it. Elizabeth is right there for all Claudia's scenes and she never contradicts her of cuts her off. Claudia doesn't correct Paige's laughing impression that Claudia is kidding about the sex for food. There's no scene where Claudia expresses any particular faith in Paige as a trainee that I remember. She never says anything to Elizabeth about Paige needing a clearer view even when asking what she wants to do for the next meeting. Her parting shot about American children doesn't include any references to a Paige that could have been or the Paige Claudia was trying to make. She's just one of two equally American kids. 

[SusanSunflower]

A little late to complain about it now but I've thought many times that it is odd that Elizabeth (and Phillip) did not push Paige and "early" Henry harder ...  as immigrant parents are inclined to do, not just because of hopes and ambitions for the future, but because of all the resources and programs that weren't available during their own growing-up.   Getting into the KGB Academy was an incredible opportunity for both P&E and they both appreciate how different their lives would have been if they had not be "chosen ones."   

In fairness to Claudia, "American children" also includes Jared (and his dead sister) ... I have to think Claudia really didn't know how bad Paige's KGB internship under mom's mentoring was (probably others wanted to avoid getting of E's "bad side" or being a tattle-tail).  Regardless, Paige's superficiality in all things at all times ... it didn't even occur to her to ask if Claudia was joking about eating rats or selling her body for food.  Like her mother, the empathy ("oh, that must have beeen awful for you") gene is utterly missing (the "good manners" gene appears damaged to).  

Edited May 25, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It is going to be sad when this show ends.  This is one of the most popular forums and I will miss the great posters and conversations.  I will be stuck over in the FTWD forum where the show has more cast members than the forum has posters.

Ohhh.....well.. I haven't found a home yet. I'll be around here for the post-mortem and then, who knows.  Probably, reality stuff....lol. 

[Erin9]

12 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It is going to be sad when this show ends.  This is one of the most popular forums and I will miss the great posters and conversations.  I will be stuck over in the FTWD forum where the show has more cast members than the forum has posters.

Yeah. I’ve really enjoyed the posters and conversations here. Will be sad to have that come to an end. 

[DrumJunkie]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I still want it shoved in Claudia's mouth - though that's unlikely. Still, she should have one of her own, yes? But yes, Chekov's pill has to go off at some point in the next episode.

Hmm.  I didn't think about Claudia having a pill, since she was read in on Dead Hand as well.  Obviously, it wouldn't have been revealed until Ep.8, but I haven't noticed a necklace dangling around her throat this episode.  I wonder if the pill was reserved for the foot soldiers and not the handlers.

[Chaos Theory]

Here is the thing about Paige.  Every time she has gone to her parents with something they have shut her down harshly.  Forget her lack of insight o am going to disagree with a lot of you on that and I really don’t want to ruin the last episode with a fight.  I think if she has gone to Claudia instead it works have been turned into a teachable moment and not shut down completely.  “Yes go to Pastor Tims House and practice reading his diary and plant this bug in his office and we will listen to it together”.  “Yes seduce that boy and this is how you do it without getting your feelings involved.”  “Awesome fighting technique taking down those two frat boys but maybe next time let them get in some punches so no one gets suspicious.”

 

 This is where I disagree with a lot of people. Paige isn’t stupid.  She might be nieve but that is in large part because even though Elizabeth says she is training her she is doing a half assed job at it and every time Paige shows any interest or initiative she shit down.....harshly.  

Something had to give eventually and I really liked the moment during the episode. Paige did ask about spying and sex but Elizabeth kept lying to her so when confronted with the truth of what her mother was doing.   Shit went down badly.   As for Philip in Paige’s mind he has always been the good kind and loving parent.  Even though she knows he is a Russian spy on her mind he is more American.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Chaos Theory
By auto edit likes to curse apparently

[jjj]

I said earlier that Philip/Elizabeth were linked in a way that would require both to leave if one were discovered, even though Philip had moved out of the spy business.  It seemed that Elizabeth would cause the need for a sudden departure, so it is ironic that it was Philip who was discovered and led to the need for the final bugout.  (Although it was supposed to be Elizabeth at that meeting with Andrei -- wonder if she would have outrun the agents?)  

[hellmouse]

1 minute ago, jjj said:

I said earlier that Philip/Elizabeth were linked in a way that would require both to leave if one were discovered, even though Philip had moved out of the spy business.  It seemed that Elizabeth would cause the need for a sudden departure, so it is ironic that it was Philip who was discovered and led to the need for the final bugout.  (Although it was supposed to be Elizabeth at that meeting with Andrei -- wonder if she would have outrun the agents?)  

I was thinking the same thing! She probably would have been wearing heels, and she's been smoking a lot, which isn't great for running. I think it would have been harder for her to outrun them. 

[anonymiss]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

A little late to complain about it now but I've thought many times that it is odd that Elizabeth (and Phillip) did not push Paige and "early" Henry harder ...  as immigrant parents are inclined to do, not just because of hopes and ambitions for the future, but because of all the resources and programs that weren't available during their own growing-up.   Getting into the KGB Academy was an incredible opportunity for both P&E and they both appreciate how different their lives would have been if they had not be "chosen ones."   

In fairness to Claudia, "American children" also includes Jared (and his dead sister) ... I have to think Claudia really didn't know how bad Paige's KGB internship under mom's mentoring was (probably others wanted to avoid getting of E's "bad side" or being a tattle-tail).  Regardless, Paige's superficiality in all things at all times ... it didn't even occur to her to ask if Claudia was joking about eating rats or selling her body for food.  Like her mother, the empathy ("oh, that must have beeen awful for you") gene is utterly missing (the "good manners" gene appears damaged to).  

 

This surprised me too. They've raised them soft, with the casual freedom to talk back to their parents, to come and go as they please, the pleasure of celebrating special occasions with multiple gifts, and an individualist right to privacy (so long as they aren't skipping school). My immigrant parents raised me in a much more austere, strict environment. P and E obviously want differently for their children than they got, which recalls what P said when arguing that Paige could do the job, but shouldn't. It's also why E kept overprotecting Paige from the harsh reality of the job (and the world, really). E was just as against their kids being involved as P was until Paige took to God and E was driven to divert that devotion elsewhere. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by anonymiss

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

A little late to complain about it now but I've thought many times that it is odd that Elizabeth (and Phillip) did not push Paige and "early" Henry harder ...  as immigrant parents are inclined to do, not just because of hopes and ambitions for the future, but because of all the resources and programs that weren't available during their own growing-up. 

Because they are not supposed to be immigrant parents. Their job was to blend in and appear to be normal American parents. Having children was part of thier cover, so I'm guessing they read parenting guides, not for advice the way normal parents would, but instead to see how "normal" American parents raised thier kids at that poine. They would not want to do anything that would make them stand out or draw unwanted/unneeded attention to themselves or their children.

Paige and Henry were born in the late 1960s and the early 1970s. My understanding (sorry if this makes anyone feel old) is that children and teenagers led less structured lives. They were given more freedom to explore the neighborhood and play unsupervised, as long as they were back by dinner or got all thier homework done before going outside to play. If that was the norm, then enrolling them in all sorts of "enrichment" type programs and creating packed scheduled of lessons and other activities would have made them appear different from the other neighborhood parents. They did not want to appear different. They wanted to appear normal.

Also, I think thier focus was on their spy work more than their kids. As long as Paige and Henry were doing well in school and not causing problems in school or the neighborhood, they were fine with leaving them pretty much alone. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Henry still hasn't called Philip back after Philip tried to reach Henry last episode.    I am not buying for a minute that Henry was at hockey practice.  I still think Henry is giving Philip and mommy dearest the cold shoulder for bailing on him during the Thanksgiving break.

If P & E, and little p try to leave the country,  I think they will have a terrible time trying to contact Henry.  They sure as shit won't have enough time to try and explain to him why the want to leave the country. 

They've gotten both kids to similar places where the last we saw them, being disappointed with their parents. So they sort of upped the stakes on them running. That is, both kid is making a decision about family more than just feeling good about Mom and Dad in that moment. 

 

45 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Stan is angry at the Soviets, but I truly believe that Stan and Philip are friends.  I don't think it is going to be such an emotionally easy call for Stan to take down Philip.  That is, if it comes to that.  If anything, I think Stan and Philip have gotten much closer this season.

 

All the more reason to be mad at those OTHER Soviets!

[anonymiss]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

Philip and Elizabeth weren't supposed to be immigrants, though, so Paige and Henry are supposed to be "soft" Americans.

Yup. But there is middle ground as well as more structured but still "American" well-to-do parenting styles (like helicoptor parenting) that drives kids to perform or to the Ivy leagues like where Henry seems a good fit for. 

[J-Man]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

blue pill time ......

When I think of the little blue pill, that isn't the little blue pill that I think of.

Is there some specific reason why it has to be blue?  Why not a black pill stamped with a skull and crossbones?

Heh -- I thought the same thing about the "blue pill" reference, but of course the more infamous "little blue pill" wasn't around in 1987. (And the only little blue pill I take is blood pressure medication!)

And was Elizabeth's cyanide pill actually blue? I sort of remember it being white. 

[Sarah 103]

10 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

Yup. But there is middle ground as well as more structured but still "American" well-to-do parenting styles (like helicoptor parenting) that drives kids to perform or to the Ivy leagues like where Henry seems a good fit for. 

In the late 1960s through the 1970s helicopter parenting would have drastically and wildly out of place and out of character for who they were supposed to be. They didn't want to be the talk of the neighborhood or the PTA. They wanted to be as close to invisible and unremarked upon as possible.  

[jjj]

15 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Heh -- I thought the same thing about the "blue pill" reference, but of course the more infamous "little blue pill" wasn't around in 1987. (And the only little blue pill I take is blood pressure medication!)

And was Elizabeth's cyanide pill actually blue? I sort of remember it being white. 

Yes, it was white.  There are pictures of it online, in previews!  

[Clanstarling]

39 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Because they are not supposed to be immigrant parents. Their job was to blend in and appear to be normal American parents. Having children was part of thier cover, so I'm guessing they read parenting guides, not for advice the way normal parents would, but instead to see how "normal" American parents raised thier kids at that poine. They would not want to do anything that would make them stand out or draw unwanted/unneeded attention to themselves or their children.

Paige and Henry were born in the late 1960s and the early 1970s. My understanding (sorry if this makes anyone feel old) is that children and teenagers led less structured lives. They were given more freedom to explore the neighborhood and play unsupervised, as long as they were back by dinner or got all thier homework done before going outside to play. If that was the norm, then enrolling them in all sorts of "enrichment" type programs and creating packed scheduled of lessons and other activities would have made them appear different from the other neighborhood parents. They did not want to appear different. They wanted to appear normal.

Also, I think thier focus was on their spy work more than their kids. As long as Paige and Henry were doing well in school and not causing problems in school or the neighborhood, they were fine with leaving them pretty much alone. 

It's my knees and other joints that make me feel old. My depth of experience, not so much. One of the few perks of growing old. Knowing it all. ;)

By and large, children were less structured and had more freedom (not me, but that's a different story). By the 80's the helicoptering trend was beginning, albeit in less obnoxious forms - at least where I was living at the time.

But I think it's less about deliberately parenting to blend in, and more about neither of them having much in the way of role models for two parent parenting. And what they did have, wasn't great. Not to mention, given their jobs, they didn't have a lot of time at home to be harsh, demanding, and on top of P & H's every movement. Paige and Henry were more or less free range kids, and free range kids tend to work things out for themselves, for better or worse.

22 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Heh -- I thought the same thing about the "blue pill" reference, but of course the more infamous "little blue pill" wasn't around in 1987. (And the only little blue pill I take is blood pressure medication!)

And was Elizabeth's cyanide pill actually blue? I sort of remember it being white. 

I remember it being white too.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Clanstarling

[jjj]

6 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

blue pill time ......

The pill has been featured in recaps, and the closeups always show it as a white pill; same in the video footage of Elizabeth looking at it.  

Edited May 25, 2018 by jjj
Was supposed to merge with previous post!