S06.E08: The Summit

Ina123 · May 17, 2018

1 hour ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows. I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right! the United States IS a nice country!!" Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

They never mention it but there's the wheat pest fiasco. Wasn't it Elizabeth who asked, "how could they have been so wrong?" So she did question something.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the finale is 2 hours. Anyone else? Not that that's much more time to tidy things up.

Bannon · May 17, 2018

10 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

None of the characterizations I take issue with acknowledge she was robotically following orders. They essentialize her work as who she is--a monster, a sociopath, a hateful shrew who enjoys this. Years ago, after Elizabeth's mission with the lady who was an addict went bad, and she ended up killing her to stop her from going to the police, there was a comment about how Elizabeth enjoys this and was getting antsy not having murdered in a while like the sociopath she is. It was agreed with and one of many that paint her that way. So I don't see the cheering. I see a vilification, which, for the reasons I've mentioned previously, is a double standard.

The problem I had was that they waited too long to show E as having much of a stress response to killing as often as she has, whereas they did so earlier with Phil. They either needed to do so earlier with Liz, or write the story with far fewer murders. I would have preferred the latter.

Sarah 103 · May 17, 2018

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Paige knows that Claudia lives as an illegal in the United States, and has for years. Unless Gorbachev's background was KGB, why would Claudia and Gorbachev ever cross paths? It is not as if the Soviet State is a small entity. I know, this is Incurious Paige, so it is likely that the only thing she knows about Gorbachev is that he is the newish leader of the country she engages in espionage for, and that he has a birthmark, but good grief.

Based on the fact that's Paige, she has no idea what Gorbachev's background is or how long Claudia has been in the U.S. Paige might have thought they crossed paths before Claudia came to the U.S and before Gorbachev came to power. Or Paige really is that clueless and thinks a deep cover KGB agent went to the Kremlin for an event and met with Gorbachev. Either way it's a sort of valid question.

Bannon · May 17, 2018

5 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

They never mention it but there's the wheat pest fiasco. Wasn't it Elizabeth who asked, "how could they have been so wrong?" So she did question something.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the finale is 2 hours. Anyone else? Not that that's much more time to tidy things up.

Liz and Phil should have been complaining to Gabriel from the beginning that the Wheat Caper was pure idiocy, and then have the bureaucracy keep telling them to do it anyways.

4 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Based on the fact that's Paige, she has no idea what Gorbachev's background is or how long Claudia has been in the U.S. Paige might have thought they crossed paths before Claudia came to the U.S and before Gorbachev came to power. Or Paige really is that clueless and thinks a deep cover KGB agent went to the Kremlin for an event and met with Gorbachev. Either way it's a sort of valid question.

Yes, if Paige is a moron, which is an unfortunate way to write the character of Paige. That was my point.

sistermagpie · May 17, 2018

24 minutes ago, lazylou said:

Just watched the episode a second time. E and P are completely unaware of how the Feebs are tracking them down by using the info on the tradecraft used in Chicago. It is clear to us that P will have a better disguise when he goes to see the priest...but...I cannot remember. Did they wear disguises with the priest? So P, not E, is walking into surveillance.

Philip wore a disguise when he met Father Andre in public but neither in private.

20 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

None of the characterizations I take issue with acknowledge she was robotically following orders. They essentialize her work as who she is--a monster, a sociopath, a hateful shrew who enjoys this. Years ago, after Elizabeth's mission with the lady who was an addict went bad, and she ended up killing her to stop her from going to the police, there was a comment about how Elizabeth enjoys this and was getting antsy not having murdered in a while like the sociopath she is. It was agreed with and one of many that paint her that way. So I don't see the cheering. I see a vilification, which, for the reasons I've mentioned previously, is a double standard.

I remember somebody saying that at the time too, but it seemed like there was pushback on it.

To me it's more like with Walter White. Some cheered him on. Some villified him for being a terrible man and father. Those who cheered him on didn't value him being a good father.

I think Elizabeth is often judged as a worse mother than she is, although so is Philip.

12 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

They never mention it but there's the wheat pest fiasco. Wasn't it Elizabeth who asked, "how could they have been so wrong?" So she did question something.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that the finale is 2 hours. Anyone else? Not that that's much more time to tidy things up.

Did she say that? I only remember her saying, "We got it wrong."

EtA: It just occurred to me re ice's comment about Henry. I wonder if the show is intentionally keeping him and Philip from talking either just due to scheduling or also Henry putting him off out of resentment because Henry is going to bring up Aunt Helen and so tip him off.

Edited May 17, 2018 by sistermagpie

jjj · May 17, 2018

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

If TPTB hadn't made Paige so clueless, she would be the perfect person to use to start bumping people off. No one would ever see that coming. I just can't imagine that Claudia would ask Paige to kill the person that Elizabeth refused to kill.

No, they have not told Paige that they kill people. Just that the feds kill "her" people.

Anela · May 17, 2018

That was gruesome, but I also saw Elizabeth as caring for her. When I first saw them interacting, for the first few episodes or so, I thought that Elizabeth couldn't wait to kill her, so that's something.

I can buy Elizabeth suddenly turning to help her husband and his contact, because she got to hear something herself, and she also doesn't like being lied to. Nobody does. I kind of wonder if her interactions with Erica (?) and her husband - seeing that he was a good person - I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I don't think it's been a fast change. The artist had an effect on her.

That actor was good. The young one. I'll have to go to a different thread to talk more.

PamelaMaeSnap · May 17, 2018

From the epic recap: "He's been thinking a lot about the management training program at McIlraith, and has decided it could be really great for him, and get him out of Marietta."

Thank you SO much for pulling out this quote because I thought he said it would get him out of his Marriott and all I could think was "Who would want to leave a Marriott???"

Joimiaroxeu · May 17, 2018

Quote

At least Stan wasn't on the toilet when he had his suspicions confirmed, although that might be the perfect place to have such a realization.

Breaking Bad already did that one.

duVerre · May 17, 2018

5 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Not just smoking but long, gorgeous hair! I laughed that that finally got mentioned. I've never worn a wig so I can't imagine how she hides that much hair under a wig.

I wear a wig, and I can tell you that no woman who must get in and out of wigs several times a week would wear her natural hair that long. Mine is patchy, baby fine and ridiculously thin, and even so it's hard to tuck away at shoulder length so I usually chop it to my chin. Thick hair that hangs halfway down your back would be a nightmare--unless, of course, you have an expert help you pin it down and keep it flat, as Russell has offscreen. But Elizabeth Jennings doesn't have any help. She'd wear a pixie cut.

thegriswolds · May 17, 2018

6 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

A number of people (see first three quoted posts as examples) found Elizabeth's "awakening" too sudden and/or linear. I agree with JBRAVOECHO09's take to some extent: I've certainly had moments of things just "clicking" in my head without my being able to say why or what made things come together for me. With Elizabeth, I think we have to factor in Erica's influence. The scene last week where Erica told Elizabeth she had to put herself in the picture seems to have resonated -- Elizabeth drew while traveling for a reason, and that reason seems to have been a growing respect for Erica and "art" in general, as well as the stirrings of questioning, of wanting to go deeper. Add to that Philip's brazen confession about betraying her and why: Philip, who just last week, put his own life on the line not because he believed in the mission but because he loves Elizabeth. I think these two things (which each reflect a culmination of many smaller moments) were enough to make Elizabeth feel it was time to better understand the why behind her missions: to put herself fully in the picture.

I did wonder about this, too. Perhaps she was inspired by Philip's bluntness with her earlier in the episode. That exchange initially gobsmacked me as well.

I agree that the Erica plotline has been setting up Elizabeth's awakening, going back to the episode where Elizabeth was drawing the vase. When I took drawing classes ages ago, we all had learn to forget what our brains told us something "should" look like and draw the thing that was actually in front of us. Don't draw the generic vase that's in your head; instead draw this actual vase on this particular day. Draw the vase as a pattern of light and shadow. It's an exercise to make you see.

Erica's lessons planted seeds for Elizabeth to begin looking beyond what her brain told her "should" be - her unquestioned assumptions about her world - and to begin seeing what actually "is". Then to begin questioning how she fits into that world - where is she in this picture? It was a slow and bumpy evolution, but then you have the conversation with Philip, the revelation of another group of patriots just as devoted to her country but in an entirely different way, and then the Russian negotiator not being the traitor she expected him to be. It was a combination of many pieces coming together at once, at a time when maybe she was just that little bit more open to the idea that there might be new ways to look at things.

SusanSunflower · May 17, 2018

pointless/useless observation is that it's absurd that there was "no more morphine" in the house after the husband used up all he had held-back for the final-solution moment .... She's terminally ill, has been in serious chronic pain for months ... there would have been more morphine for the next regular dose (and the one after that, and the one after that -- given she was not expected to die) -- morphine, that, even if it were kept under lock and key, would have been available to E. rather than the paint-brush solution. Erica also would have had clearing as her body metabolized that "final shot" that didn't kill her, particularly after 12+ hours. OBVIOUSLY, the husband could have easily just used a pillow

Edited May 17, 2018 by SusanSunflower

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

10 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I thought he was actually quite smart, and he was a bit suspicious of her from the very beginning. The actor certainly played it that way. He got caught up in the excitement of a possible good job and sexy times with an attractive older woman. I think he even felt there was a connection between them, which was Elizabeth’s intention. That was why he did not either call his father and ask for advice or go directly to the police or FBI or someone in Sam Nunn’s office. First, he realized he may have been complicit in a criminal act. That would mean a lot of serious questions and admitting the sex and everything. He could be in serious trouble and not only might he lose his current job , it would be embarrassing. Second, he just wasn’t sure what was going on. I think many people in that situation would have difficulty believing it was actually happening and while some would go directly to the authorities others would try to get the person to tell them the truth, hoping they were wrong and had not been duped.

Jackson was naïve and confused but I don’t think he was stupid. He was smart enough to realize something was off about the whole situation and look in that box. He did not realize just how dangerous Elizabeth was until she gripped his arm to stop him from leaving the car. A nice young man from a small town, especially back then and after they had had sex the night before, would never have expected she could be capable of violence.

These kids today...never read a spy novel? Ha. Actually, yes, it played out believably, but he was a film buff, and you'd think he would have gone through a pretty standard 'watch out if a strange woman approaches you' briefing. All in all though, I can live with it.

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Truthfully, nobody's demanding an autopsy on somebody with end stage cancer.

Exactly, and her throat wouldn't have be bruised, those bristles at the end of the brush caused the gag reflex.

9 hours ago, benteen said:

Does anyone remember the guy from Gregory's crew that Stan interviewed?

Already answered, but yes, I will never forget those fabulous eyes. He was duped by Gregory, thought he was involved with drug dealing, not the KGB. Stan handled him perfectly.

9 hours ago, JBravoEcho09 said:

I completely disagree. I think epiphanies are real and sometimes it doesn't take much to push you over the edge. She has been running herself ragged not just all season but the past three years (and to those who say oh she's doing it an episode or two before the finale, she doesn't know she's in a TV show!). I honestly think due to her natural tendencies to follow orders and lack of empathy, especially without Phillip, she has literally turned into an all-out automaton.

Back when they were together he made her question her choices and kills multiple times (from the 4th episode where he convinces her to sit on the General Hague Intelligence to the episode where they fumbled the military base op to the episode with the plant schematics janitor). With him out of the picture, I think not only have her natural spy tendencies been dominating but also the lack of time due to him not helping hasn't allowed her the ability to sit back and think about anything (she's said she's been exhausted all season and it shows).

Just like Stan. While many of you say he's dumb and had taken stupid pills after his highly undercover op with the Klan. He knew he was undercover there and didn't develop any personal feelings for the men he was with. This has been different. There are reasons he has been blindsided because he came into this as a person with no shield built in. As long as its taken to have him figure things out with P&E, I think it's because he needs them more than he'd like to admit. While Elizabeth has poked fun of Phillip's friendship with Stan, I honestly think (more than both of them know/would admit) that's really been the only thing stopping him from going after them (I mean we all see him targeting Elizabeth first. There's a reason for that choice.)

While his spy instincts have often been repressed because of the feelings he's had for those he felt he should be loyal to, his subconscious has always been working over time. (Remember that one dream sequence with him in the office with Martha in the background stealing things off the mail robot.) So in summary, I completely buy from both of these characters "transformations" because sometimes all it takes a little push it nudge for something to click and completely change everything.

I agree, things build up and build up and suddenly things snap into place. You naturally just keep doing the same things until one day you don't, or won't, and a path forward or sideways becomes clear.

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was so surprised that Elizabeth didn't kill Jackson that I started wondering if that was a dream sequence.

Awwww, Stavros! It's a good thing that Philip was the one who went to see him. If Stavros had said, "I will keep your secrets because I am loyal," Elizabeth would have probably added him to her kill list.

A lot of things have become clear for Elizabeth after that amazing talk she finally had with Philip.

I kind of thought Elizabeth might not kill him, from everything that had happened earlier in the episode. Honestly, Philip's eyes when Stavros admitted he knew shady shit was going on? Scared me, I thought Stavros was a goner. Also, I loved that Stavros wouldn't let him in. Some people in this world still think on their feet. "No dude, it's easier for you to kill me behind closed doors."

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

But here's an unrelated question: if Claudia knew about Dead Hand all along, why did Elizabeth have to go to Mexico City?

I suppose it's possible that the latest explanation was a lie and the goal was actually to protect Claudia from being implicated if things go bad. But that doesn't seem to be something Elizabeth is considering, and it would blunt Liz's character arc considerably if she turns on Claudia not because she rejects the hardliners' ideology but because she realizes they have been planning to hang her out to dry the whole time.

You kind of answered your own question. ;~)

Yes, Claudia was completely covering her own ass, not Elizabeth's as she claimed. If Elizabeth were caught, or the plans to overthrow Gorbachev failed? Claudia didn't want to go down for it. Claudia's been alive for a long time, and there is a reason for that. She's a wily old spy. Also? Spies lie, all the time.

Elizabeth shouldn't have been so honest with Claudia, she's lost a step. She should have lied about not killing that innocent Russian, said she didn't get a chance that night, anything. Instead she took her on, head to head.

Elizabeth and Claudia are enemies now, which reminds me of many scenes in the past. Elizabeth calling her an old woman and warning her not to try to take her on. Claudia telling Elizabeth she's been doing this shit for years, so shut your trap whippersnapper. (obviously not exact words) Looks like we are about to see who really wins in a battle between two amazing female KFB Officers.

8 hours ago, shura said:

Not intending this to be a knock on the writing, but that's not some brilliant idea the writers had to be particularly talented to come up with. It's all real life.

THANK YOU! I meant to look that up, since the show so often pulls from real life, but I'd put it off. It was still brilliant of the writers to find it and use it, and to me, a much better reason for the time jump than I thought.

8 hours ago, benteen said:

Stavos is lucky he didn't tell Elizabeth about his suspicions or else he would have ended up on the floor dead in his apartment.

As I said above, I really thought Philip was going to kill him, I think Stavros did as well. Philip's eyes went cold when Stavros said that.

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

It was "Body Heat" an early 80s noir movie with a very sexy Kathleen Turner having some fairly explicit scenes with William Hurt. Definitely forshadowing.

One of the sexiest movies ever, but alas, no...

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

He said "The Big Heat." He was far too pretentious to bring a movie as recent as Body Heat!

Just another film noir crime story. Or is there more to it?

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Is Stavos Russian? I always wondered if he was some sort of very minor agent the KGB planted to keep an eye on Philip and Elizabeth (unbeknownst to them). If the worst happens, he can call the Centre or someone and let them know what's going on. But until then, he's an employee like everyone else.

I think "trolled" might be a bit extreme, but the show has trained us to suspect everyone, heh. Renee might just be there to show us that Stan finally has a relationship that's kind of normal. He's not undercover anymore, so he has the time (and the desire) to devote to his marriage. Whatever PTSD he was suffering is under control, and he's content with his work (or at least not actively hating it). Maybe casting a recognizable/cult actor in the role of his wife was a way to show that. They care enough to give him more than a glorified extra as a wife (even if Renee is sort of that anyway).

In some respects, the KGB is always gunning for them. The FBI they can handle.

Stavros is Greek.

The show didn't have Philip suspect Renee for no reason, Philip's job, which he does well, is to be aware of things like that. I think we are meant to trust his judgment, that Renee is not what she seems.

Both are gunning for them now, which is not good.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Umbelina

Helena Dax · May 17, 2018

I must confess that when Elizabeth refused to help Claudia I felt very proud of her. And yes, I agree that Erica touched her in a way that her other targets didn't do. One of the reasons was that Erica didn't let Elizabeth rule their relationship. I bet Elizabeth started this job with the idea of taking care of Erica's needs, of being gentle and patient. And Elizabeth would be in control, like she always is in these situations. But Erica changed the script. Maybe because she was an artist and always tried to see beyond the obvious. She tried to reach the person behind the nurse and the only real person there was Elizabeth, not Stephanie? Margaret? I don't remember what name Elizabeth was using.

But maybe the best part is that she didn't change that much. She's still loyal to the USSR and his president and the party, like she's always been. Ironically, saving Gorbachev would lead to the end of the Soviet Union.

I loved this episode and I just can't wait to see what happens next. Is Philip going to get caught while talking to the Russian priest? What if Stan has to team up with the Jennings and Oleg in order to stop the people who want to destroy Gorbachev? Too contrived, I know, but some part of me thinks it would be awesome. Is someone going to die?

Regarding Renee, I'd think she's just Stan's wife if she hadn't apply to the FBI. I mean, c'mon. There has to be something there.

And Stavros knows. I'm dying.

SunnyBeBe · May 17, 2018

I got the feeling that Stavros might have thought that they were using the business as a money laundering type front. I'm not sure if the truth would ever enter his mind. I mean, besides the secrecy and disappearing acts, what else could he have known about?

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I am always suspect of Claudia, because she is so hard core, but, I really wonder if she would kill E or P without direct orders. And if she did get them from that certain faction within The Centre, would she do it? They need to be pretty careful, because, if they kill P & E, they are losing vital illegals. (I take it that the Centre isn't aware that the FBI is on their heels.) All the years it took them to get P & E to where they are now AND they have Paige just starting her career. Would The Centre really screw that all up over E not killing this target they have? Maybe, E is confident that they wouldn't.

After E got home and talked to P, she said she had some work to do. Where was she going? The night job is over. Hmmm....to see Paige?

Claudia obviously doesn't care all that much about orders, she'd kill either of them in a heartbeat to save herself, or for something she believed in, such as "Gorbachev sucks! Keep our nukes! Stop modernizing the USSR!"

Elizabeth was going to look out for the Russian she admires that Claudia wants dead and framed.

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

The problem is that until Gorbachev is deposed, Liz has the power to get all the coup planners executed. If she decides that she wants to blow the entire assasination plot, which she essentially does, by having Phil inform Burov of what is going on, everbody involved in the plot is subject to being tortured until they give up the co-conspirators, and then taken down to the basement, for The Full Nina. Liz and Phil gotta get clipped, if the anti-Gorbachev plotters are to protect themselves.

Exactly.

What's cool is, not only are the Jennings facing off against the FBI and part of the KGB now? It's also Elizabeth facing off with Claudia! I SO hope that pays off, those two excellent KGB Officers, with their complicated history. Maybe we will finally get to see who really is the best out of the two of them, both of course, think THEY are. I'm not sure, they are both formidable.

6 hours ago, teddysmom said:

So Claudia confirms to Elizabeth what Phillip had told her, and she's STILL pissed at him?

She's pissed, as @Erin says better later, that her husband lied to her, spied on her, has been deceiving her for months. She's not pissed at his cause, it's the personal part of it that irks.

5 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I don't want Elizabeth's entire core of being that we've seen for six seasons to just flip in the last two shows. I don't want the end game to be "Gee, Phillip, you're right! the United States IS a nice country!!" Ideally, I'd like to see this one woman crime spree get what's coming to her.

It hasn't flipped. She's always be loyal and willing to do anything for her country. She's a soldier.

She just found out that this latest assignment is AGAINST her country, against her President, who isn't the asshole he is being painted to be, and against a very loyal, dedicated, kind, intelligent man who IS fighting for his country, and for the world as well. Claudia's orders were to frame him, and kill him.

Philip told her the rest of the story earlier.

Claudia lied and manipulated her for her own reasons, not for the good of the world, or the USSR.

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

As for Elizabeth her “awakening” has been coming for a very long time now. You can say the fact it happens during the last three episodes is too coincidental but it makes sense narratively speaking. With two episodes left, a home and homeland divided, now is the perfect time for her to question all the things she only kinda sorta questioned before. Plus she just found out all those murders she has been committing lately were not to stop a traitor. She was in fact committing treason herself. I think that might be a bridge too far for her. She is a patriot. Even to a leader she may not agree with. That at least makes her different then Claudia. She asked the questions before or had them asked of her but always chose the mission in the end but this time it isn’t quite as easy or clear to her. I kind of like that. Give Elizabeth one last chance to figure out who she really wants to be....just as Stan is about to figure out who she has always been.

Exactly, and well said. Also, I think after listening to that tape, and talking with Philip, she realizes it IS what she wants for her country, and for the world. The reduction of nukes has always been one of Elizabeth's goals, she didn't think it would happen, but now, there is a chance that it will.

4 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It has to make her question everything. If they're planning to falsify her reports to achieve some outcome, she must wonder, have they ever done that before? How have I been duped by my own people? Have they been using her as a weapon for personal ends? it's not like Elizabeth to sit and reflect on every operation she's ever done, but she's going to think about it a little, at least.

It's also going to make her question the plan for Paige. Elizabeth has lied to Paige, but she's always thought it was for Paige's own good. Now she's got to reconsider the fact that she's setting her daughter up to be a pawn for an organization itself can't be trusted. Her naive, inept, American daughter. How does Elizabeth decide to handle that?

Loved the first paragraph. As for Paige? With two episodes left I think her fate will be resolved. Hopefully it won't be annoying.

3 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Exactly. The hardliners are using the Summit as a means to get rid of a leader they don’t like. That the party is standing behind. (That was a big issue for Elizabeth. The party supports him.) And they’ll murder nesterenko and falsify Elizabeth’s reports making him and Gorbachev look like traitors to accomplish that. Even when to her they’re sincerely negotiating in what they feel is the best interests of home and the world. She had the benefit of hearing Nesterenko. She heard he wasn’t a sell out.

I’m not sure Elizabeth has suddenly become pro reform at home either, but she sees this situation for what it is: A coup built on lies by a small disgruntled faction.

Yes, and the Party is split on this. Elizabeth has been lied to and manipulated, and she listened to the tape herself. (A little aside I learned from a few of my spy books. Soviets actually had different kinds of tapes. The spies in the field could not listen to them, only Headquarters could. CIA spies could listen, as we've seen Elizabeth and Philip do. KGB? Could not.)

46 minutes ago, duVerre said:

I wear a wig, and I can tell you that no woman who must get in and out of wigs several times a week would wear her natural hair that long. Mine is patchy, baby fine and ridiculously thin, and even so it's hard to tuck away at shoulder length so I usually chop it to my chin. Thick hair that hangs halfway down your back would be a nightmare--unless, of course, you have an expert help you pin it down and keep it flat, as Russell has offscreen. But Elizabeth Jennings doesn't have any help. She'd wear a pixie cut.

Having great hair and make up people helps. I've watched enough Alias "extras" to see how it's done. ;) Also, perfectly fitted wigs to your exact skull helps.

38 minutes ago, thegriswolds said:

I agree that the Erica plotline has been setting up Elizabeth's awakening, going back to the episode where Elizabeth was drawing the vase. When I took drawing classes ages ago, we all had learn to forget what our brains told us something "should" look like and draw the thing that was actually in front of us. Don't draw the generic vase that's in your head; instead draw this actual vase on this particular day. Draw the vase as a pattern of light and shadow. It's an exercise to make you see.

Erica's lessons planted seeds for Elizabeth to begin looking beyond what her brain told her "should" be - her unquestioned assumptions about her world - and to begin seeing what actually "is". Then to begin questioning how she fits into that world - where is she in this picture? It was a slow and bumpy evolution, but then you have the conversation with Philip, the revelation of another group of patriots just as devoted to her country but in an entirely different way, and then the Russian negotiator not being the traitor she expected him to be. It was a combination of many pieces coming together at once, at a time when maybe she was just that little bit more open to the idea that there might be new ways to look at things.

Yes, many things, certainly Philip, and the cancer patient have helped open Elizabeth's eyes/soul. I think her biggest moment was listening to that tape though, and hearing Claudia tell her the plan to discredit him, and to eliminate Gorbachev. Listening to the tape was key though, he spoke so well, so sincerely about the world, his country, his leader, and the need to stop with the nukes already. Elizabeth was moved by that, and also realized she agreed with him.

SunnyBeBe · May 17, 2018

So, where are the other sources of intelligence that should be getting wind of what the FBI is looking into? Wouldn't there be some kind of intel that would get a message to P or E? Is that little security room wrapped up so tight and NO ONE is letting anything slip to the point that no one outside of the room knows what they are searching for? No one has been tipped that authorities are looking into bank records, car titles, utility payments, etc. IT seems that something would get noticed and a tip off.

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

Why?

The FBI are being very careful, they haven't raided any garages. The guy in Chicago caught on to being followed, but that doesn't mean they all would. Philip and Elizabeth are compartmentalized. The other embedded spies may not even know who they are, and they certainly don't communicate with one another unless it's a joint operation.

Penman61 · May 17, 2018

When Philip said this to Elizabeth...

Quote

I always-- I would do anything for you. I did, I just did. But not anymore. And you do whatever you want, but please, some of these things? We believed in something so big. And they tell us what to do and we do it. I get it, that's how it works. But we do it. We do it. Not them. So it's on us. All of it.

...I felt the same catharsis as when Walter White said to Sklyer:

Quote

All the the things that I did...you need to understand...I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really...I was alive.

Just hearing the obvious but long-denied truth spoken aloud...so satisfying.

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

That was probably one of my very FAVORITE things that ever happened on Breaking Bad. Those writers were SO fucking good. You are right, in The Americans that was a small taste of that.

SunnyBeBe · May 17, 2018

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Why?

The FBI are being very careful, they haven't raided any garages. The guy in Chicago caught on to being followed, but that doesn't mean they all would. Philip and Elizabeth are compartmentalized. The other embedded spies may not even know who they are, and they certainly don't communicate with one another unless it's a joint operation.

They had to talk to someone to get records on how the payments were made early on utility bills and the details on the garages too. They have to either use the phones to call these places or go there in person and talk to someone. They've gotten wind of things before, like about William, Martha, Harvest, etc. But, I get that they want to place P & E in a vulnerable position, so that they really are desperate and perhaps have no where to run and no time to get there.

Edited May 17, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

They talked to people in CHICAGO.

After that? They are going through DMV records and Utility companies.

The other embedded spies may not even know about the guy in Chicago, or his death.

sistermagpie · May 17, 2018

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I just wish that the writers built Paige up more, to the point where she could possibly be a threat to her parents. That she could go on a mission and be able to eliminate a problem. I hoped Claudia could "work" her in that way. That would make for more interesting story telling if Elizabeth had to stop Paige from taking action.

As ditzy as Paige is, I'm glad they didn't try to build her up like that because while she didn't have to be so clueless, her not being her parents is central to the idea. The show might not always do a good job with the clean-up of murder, but it tries to make the point that murder is ugly and often messy and difficult. It's not just a cartoon where anyone can pick up a gun and shoot someone and be fine. If Paige was just turned into hit girl she'd be a cartoon, imo.

Plus what Philip said years ago is true--she didn't grow up like them. She really shouldn't realistically just surpass them at their own game. (Jared was a whole different kettle of fish with what was going on with him.) She both had too much and too little to be them.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Already answered, but yes, I will never forget those fabulous eyes. He was duped by Gregory, thought he was involved with drug dealing, not the KGB. Stan handled him perfectly.

That scene is one of my favorites of the show when Stan said he was pretty sure they were both Americans. I love it when people on this show fall back on that most primal of instincts about that, no matter which country they're for. So I guess it's not surprising I find Paige's vague switch of allegiance so annoying. We didn't even have to see the rest of the conversation after we saw what Stan was saying to Curtis. Also yes, those eyes. He has beautiful eyes.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth shouldn't have been so honest with Claudia, she's lost a step. She should have lied about not killing that innocent Russian, said she didn't get a chance that night, anything. Instead she took her on, head to head.

Elizabeth and Claudia are enemies now, which reminds me of many scenes in the past. Elizabeth calling her an old woman and

Isn't the same true of Claudia? Why was she honest with Elizabeth after lying all that time? And then she let her leave just asking her not to tell anyone. Claudia made the same mistake.

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

And Stavros knows. I'm dying.

Well, he really doesn't *know*. He just noted that they were up to something, no idea what. All they did in the office was plot and leave at odd hours, which was enough. But if he'd called the police as he said, what exactly would he have been reporting? That was a bluff to Philip just to let him know he knew the agency was a front for something.

I have to say, though, that Stavros is a bit of a whiner here. The agency is actually going under so yeah, he was going to lose his job anyway. Philip clearly does feel bad and so does have some loyalty to him, but maybe instead of assuming you deserve your job for keeping your bosses secrets without him knowing it you might have been more productive at work, Stav. How long have you been there as the least successful agent? LOL!

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

But maybe the best part is that she didn't change that much. She's still loyal to the USSR and his president and the party, like she's always been. Ironically, saving Gorbachev would lead to the end of the Soviet Union.

But then, getting rid of him might have led to the end of it just as much.

55 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

What's cool is, not only are the Jennings facing off against the FBI and part of the KGB now? It's also Elizabeth facing off with Claudia! I SO hope that pays off, those two excellent KGB Officers, with their complicated history. Maybe we will finally get to see who really is the best out of the two of them, both of course, think THEY are. I'm not sure, they are both formidable.

Elizabeth has the advantage, though: she has Philip. Claudia is who Elizabeth maybe would have been without him. That's why she fell under her spell more when she was distanced from him.

25 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They had to talk to someone to get records on how the payments were made early on utility bills and the details on the garages too. They have to either use the phones to call these places or go there in person and talk to someone. They've gotten wind of things before, like about William, Martha, etc. But, I get that they want to place P & E in a vulnerable position, so that they really are desperate and perhaps have no where to run and no time to get there.

When they get wind of things we know how they did it. They don't just hear stuff from everywhere. There's really nothing the FBI is doing yet that could tip them off at all.

Edited May 17, 2018 by sistermagpie

hellmouse · May 17, 2018

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They had to talk to someone to get records on how the payments were made early on utility bills and the details on the garages too. They have to either use the phones to call these places or go there in person and talk to someone. They've gotten wind of things before, like about William, Martha, etc. But, I get that they want to place P & E in a vulnerable position, so that they really are desperate and perhaps have no where to run and no time to get there.

When they get wind of things we know how they did it. They don't just hear stuff from everywhere. There's really nothing the FBI is doing yet that could tip them off at all.

Father Andrei can tell Philip about the senior priest being called in for questioning. Aderholt gave the okay to bring him in - that should raise the alarm for Philip that the FBI are on to something.

I wonder if he sees Stan at the office before he sees Father Andrei or after.

sistermagpie · May 17, 2018

1 minute ago, hellmouse said:

Father Andrei can tell Philip about the senior priest being called in for questioning. Aderholt gave the okay to bring him in - that should raise the alarm for Philip that the FBI are on to something.

Yes, I thought that. And like I said elsewhere, even Henry could send up an alarm if Philip finally talks to him onscreen.

Avaleigh · May 17, 2018

12 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Ah, a 98% Paige-free episode! I’m going to say it, I am convinced that the show could have had Paige mostly in the background being funneled toward a degree in Political Science and then internships and such leading to a State Department job. Everything including the Pastor Tim storyline that put Paige front and center could have been avoided in favor of more focus on the evolution of Philip and Elizabeth. That’s just my opinion and I’m stickin’ to it.

Yes! I so agree. The strongest and most well received episodes this season were the two where Paige is barely featured. That says a lot IMO.

The writers made a huge miscalculation in terms of the way they handled the character. To me, no character on this show is more frustrating or tiresome to watch than Paige Jennings. It's like there's some sort of behind the scenes contest going on with regard to who can give her the most eye roll inducing, cringe worthy line.

I actually spent three or four seasons being something of a Paige apologist, but I've gotten to the point where the character just doesn't interest me anymore. Stavos in his little three minute scene with Philip is infinitely more compelling. Martha's handful of scenes last season were more memorable than anything Paige has done in the past two seasons. Hell, even Renee is more compelling because at least I'm still on edge that she could turn out to be a game changer, as unlikely as that probably is. The only thing that I can count on with Paige is that she'll do or say something stupid followed up by claims that she "gets it" when in reality she doesn't seem to understand jackshit when it comes to anything what she's gotten herself involved in. I think The Americans season 1-4 ranks right up there with the best shows of all time (it's easily in my top five) so it's amazing to me how horribly they dropped the ball when it comes to the writing of this character.

Philip continues to MVP this season.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Avaleigh

Umbelina · May 17, 2018

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Isn't the same true of Claudia? Why was she honest with Elizabeth after lying all that time? And then she let her leave just asking her not to tell anyone. Claudia made the same mistake.

Well, he really doesn't *know*. He just noted that they were up to something, no idea what. All they did in the office was plot and leave at odd hours, which was enough. But if he'd called the police as he said, what exactly would he have been reporting? That was a bluff to Philip just to let him know he knew the agency was a front for something.

I have to say, though, that Stavros is a bit of a whiner here. The agency is actually going under so yeah, he was going to lose his job anyway. Philip clearly does feel bad and so does have some loyalty to him, but maybe instead of assuming you deserve your job for keeping your bosses secrets without him knowing it you might have been more productive at work, Stav. How long have you been there as the least successful agent? LOL!

Elizabeth has the advantage, though: she has Philip. Claudia is who Elizabeth maybe would have been without him. That's why she fell under her spell more when she was distanced from him.

Claudia did it for a REASON. To force Elizabeth into killing that guy. To scare her, and to accomplish her goals. Elizabeth finally told the truth for what reason? To draw a line in the sand and dare Claudia to cross it? Foolish. Claudia is dangerous as fuck.

We don't know what Stavros knows. He's from Greece, he knows communists and spies. He knew they turned on the copy machine constantly for no reason, and about all of their strange hours, and probably moods as well. He was raised to be loyal. Philip was not loyal, he didn't look out for "the small guy" here (which by the way is what that movie he rented was all about!) Philip had turned straight up cliche hard assed capitalist.

I highly recommend listening to this weeks Podcast, the artist is amazing, but listening to the two J's talk about that movie and what it would mean to Philip? Fantastic! It also relates directly the Stavros scene.

You honestly thing Claudia has no one here? Hello! Coup that is going after Gorbachev, they wouldn't hesitate to take out Philip and Elizabeth. Not for a second. They are planning on his death, Elizabeth and Philip? Small potatoes compared to taking over the USSR.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Umbelina

Umbelina · May 18, 2018

Since we are talking about the Priest?

I totally missed this!

Quote

Odds and Ends

• The priest being looked at most closely by the F.B.I. was a Father Viktor who had risen too quickly within the church hierarchy. I don’t think we’ve seen him before, but Father Andrei referred to him last season, telling Philip about a Father Viktor who drank too much and had a problematic relationship with a Frenchman. Is there time left for this to turn into something?

That changes things! Thank you NYT for that, and for a very in depth and great review as well. (Link in the media thread.)

sistermagpie · May 18, 2018

Re-watching the opening scene it's great how it mirrors that scene in the premiere. Besides the obvious blocking and setting etc., in both scenes Elizabeth both cuts Philip off and sneers about how much he likes to talk. And yet, they've barely spoken all season...and now she finds out he's actually been keeping a secret. Or really it's not even that they've barely spoken it's that clearly he's not chattering to her about his day.

Elizabeth says if Philip really wanted to talk he would have, but really the problem was it wasn't until now that she would have listened. If he'd have told her about Oleg the first couple of times he tried she would never have listened--which is why he stopped. And also it's only in this scene where he really knows what to say. Elizabeth is angry but he's o sure of what he's saying now. She can't help but listen.

Plus it's echoed again in the scene with Claudia when Elizabeth finds out she's been lied to twice--but that just makes the contrast between them more clear. They're both making their case for why they lied--but Philip is coming clean just to come clean. Claudia's gotten caught.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Claudia did it for a REASON. To force Elizabeth into killing that guy. To scare her, and to accomplish her goals. Elizabeth finally told the truth for what reason? To draw a line in the sand and dare Claudia to cross it? Foolish. Claudia is dangerous as fuck.

Why did Claudia need to tell Elizabeth the truth in order to get her to kill him? Wouldn't it have made more sense to come up with something Elizabeth would go for after keeping her secret all this time if the only goal was to manipulate her and she's saying she has a problem with killing the guy when he's clearly not doing what she's been told he's doing? Claudia's confirming Elizabeth's suspicion. When Elizabeth tells her she's out she lets her leave.

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You honestly thing Claudia has no one here? Hello! Coup that is going after Gorbachev, they wouldn't hesitate to take out Philip and Elizabeth. Not for a second.

Of course, but she obviously still let Elizabeth walk home and tell immediately. The information is probably going to be on its way, so she made the same mistake Elizabeth did.

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

We don't know what Stavros knows. He's from Greece, he knows communists and spies. He knew they turned on the copy machine constantly for no reason, and about all of their strange hours, and probably moods as well. He was raised to be loyal. Philip was not loyal, he didn't look out for "the small guy" here (which by the way is what that movie he rented was all about!) Philip had turned straight up cliche hard assed capitalist.

Sure, I get that part of it. Stavos turned out to be more loyal to Philip than Philip even knew. That was exactly what Philip was struggling with about it--he wanted to keep his workers employed and when he specifically let go of the people not making enough money he was reducing them to numbers in a ledger. Like a capitalist. This ep even had the symbolism of Philip looking up from the calculator at an empty office. Then he even drove it home with talking about how he could have nice things but still be drowning financially--because you always have to have more. Capitalism! Philip does not like it!

Though I do still think Stavos is being too OTT in his resentment, as much as I loved his scene if only for that line about the back room. As great as he is at being loyal and not calling the police about whatever (I take him at his word that he doesn't literally know they're KGB spies--he seems too smart to have let himself know too much) he seemed like a terrible travel agent. Hey, maybe he's a parallel to Paige! :-)

Rewatching her scene again is still so funny. "It's so weird he's here!" And then some talk about what's happening next that's probably in the papers already but Paige is unaware of it despite participating in major crimes related to this summit.

Elizabeth is wearing a hot outfit when she burns the painting. Just makes Paige's recent outfits seem more unfair.

Yes! I checked the scene again and there's a shot of Philip buttoning his jacket when he gets his suit and because it's in the mirror he's wearing his wedding ring on the real side.

Love how the ep is structured so that P&E never speak except at the beginning and the end. So it took me a bit to figure out exactly what was meant to be going on with Philip. They even have Elizabeth send Paige out of the room with Claudia as if maybe she might be telling her about Philip. But Philip doesn't know what she's doing. So he's just spending the day thinking it's one of his last.

Oh, and it's a small thing but it's nice that when you have the close up of Philip's face as he watches the movie it can't help but specifically show you he's not reading the subtitles. Obviously he wouldn't, but I feel like it's a nice subconscious thing there. It's funny that when Elizabeth walks in she just let's the movie go without comment. Everything's so weird now what's a few tinny Russian voices greeting you from the living room?

hellmouse · May 18, 2018

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth has the advantage, though: she has Philip. Claudia is who Elizabeth maybe would have been without him. That's why she fell under her spell more when she was distanced from him.

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You honestly thing Claudia has no one here? Hello! Coup that is going after Gorbachev, they wouldn't hesitate to take out Philip and Elizabeth. Not for a second. They are planning on his death, Elizabeth and Philip? Small potatoes compared to taking over the USSR.

I agree that Claudia is a formidable threat. She certainly has allies and resources. Not to mention she's been brainwashing Elizabeth into hating America more than ever with her movies and music and food, and Elizabeth thought it was all for Paige so she didn't even realize what was happening.

BUT, she doesn't know that Elizabeth and Philip are on the same side. She doesn't know that Elizabeth has a way to communicate back to Moscow without involving Claudia. So that at least gives Elizabeth a bit of an edge. And Elizabeth can certainly take Claudia in a fight. We know that.

I'm wondering what Arkady's plan is once he gets the details from Oleg. What can he do against his own bosses in the KGB? Does he have any powerful allies? If so, that's another advantage for Elizabeth against Claudia. If not, then the advantage goes back to Claudia.

skippylou · May 18, 2018

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Why?

The FBI are being very careful, they haven't raided any garages. The guy in Chicago caught on to being followed, but that doesn't mean they all would. Philip and Elizabeth are compartmentalized. The other embedded spies may not even know who they are, and they certainly don't communicate with one another unless it's a joint operation.

Joan (the telephone switchboard girl) is possibly the only person outside the Center and the Rezidentura who knows the identity of all the East Coast illegals. I'm sure she is under very strict orders about disclosure. I wonder if we'll see her this season.

crgirl412 · May 18, 2018

19 hours ago, Dev F said:

So does anyone have a good read on what, specifically, Elizabeth saw in the painting of Erica's she "chose"? Honestly, I've been drawn to that particular painting for weeks, since it reminds me of someone and I can't figure out who; I think it's an actress, but I'm not sure whether it's someone on the show or someone completely unrelated.

For reference, you can see the image at the end of GIF in this tweet:

I think the image was probably created specifically for the show; the real-life artist, Alyssa Monks, mentioned in an interview that "there’s a painting that I re-created that I had done in the past, and I put a little edge on it." It makes sense that they would re-create the image that Liz ends up burning rather than fuck up an existing painting. And true to that possibility, I don't see this particular painting on Monks's website, but there is a similar image from 2014 that could be the original version she re-created. I don't know, though, whether it was specifically adjusted to look more like someone we know on the show.

I didn't read the other comments prior to writing this one so maybe it's been said. I think Elizabeth saw something of her mother in the painting. She has seen her as an elderly woman in West Germany .

Umbelina · May 18, 2018

9 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

I didn't read the other comments prior to writing this one so maybe it's been said. I think Elizabeth saw something of her mother in the painting. She has seen her as an elderly woman in West Germany .

Which makes sense, as the painting was the artist's mother, and she talks about how emotional that was for her, to even see the replica burned, in this week's podcast.

jjj · May 18, 2018

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Which makes sense, as the painting was the artist's mother, and she talks about how emotional that was for her, to even see the replica burned, in this week's podcast.

Even the replica was a piece of art. I could have been sold for a fair amount of money, and provided beauty to someone if it had not been burned. (I am talking about the real-life world of the replica, not the television show.)

crgirl412 · May 18, 2018

17 hours ago, MrsWitter said:

While I agree that the actual manner of death was quite graphic, I simply don't see this as another of Elizabeth's "murders" or something that was "disgusting" or "low." If anything, I saw it as a small act of kindness (at least as far as Elizabeth can be kind)- she stroked her hair and seemed to be gentle and affectionate before killing her. The actual method of killing her was harsh in some ways, but it was fairly quick and I don't know what other options Elizabeth had to kill her then (outside of her cyanide pill, which she was clearly not giving up). Maybe suffocation by pillow would have been more palatable? This woman was suffering and there seemed to be no going back from the morphine overdose her husband gave her. Death at this point was the kindest option. Also, Erica's seeming struggle or fight to survive seemed largely involuntary- the body tries to protect life even when the mind and/or spirit is ready to let go.

For those who are interested, the showrunners gave an interview to Vulture discussing the Russian movie Phillip watched and the reasoning behind Phillip purchasing a suit. I won't spoil, but since the suit has been a hot topic of conversation, I thought I'd share the link- it's not a big spoiler or anything, but it does offer some clarification:

http://www.vulture.com/2018/05/heres-the-story-behind-that-russian-movie-on-the-americans.html

The way they had Ericka's death happen was gratuitous, IMHO. What the hell is wrong with the old pillow over the face??

You are correct that her fighting Elizabeth was involuntary- the body tries to protect itself at all cost by reflex in this case but even in others. I'm now an inpatient psych nurse and have had patients who the day before made a very lethal suicide attempt and yet still saying they still want to die and have a plan while on the unit so they are placed on Constant Observation. They still worried about their high blood pressure meds, infection setting in if they had used a skin-penetrating method, etc. It is interesting how much the body, mind and spirit fight for life.

Edited May 18, 2018 by crgirl412

crgirl412 · May 18, 2018

13 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

A lot of people smoked back then, that is hardly enough evidence to believe that Elizabeth is a Soviet spy.

I wonder what flipped Elizabeth's Cogswell Cog? It couldn't be that little discussion she had with Philip. She is pissed at Philip. All of a sudden she changes direction that fast? She lets the dufus kid with the weird laugh survive, then she doesn't kill who she is supposed to kill using her gun wrapped in the newspaper?

I was kind of hoping that Elizabeth would completely flip, and "off" Claudia.

Is Henry giving his dad the silent treatment? I get the feeling he is.

If I were Max (Philip) I would keep looking over my shoulder to make sure that Elizabeth (The Grinch) doesn't pull another 180.

The last thing I want to do is start rooting for Claudia. However, that may just do it.

That is so true, funny and sad that Philip can be compared to Max!

Umbelina · May 18, 2018

It took a very long time for Elizabeth to get where she is now. She's not going to switch back, she went too far with Claudia.

She stopped being a soldier following orders and, because of Erika, because of Philip, because of Gorbachev's speech and that Russian delegate's passionate and truthful tape recording?

She's become a human being again. All so deftly handled by the fantastic Russell who did most of those transformations simply with her face and body, without words at all.

Emmy episode for her most definitely.

J-Man · May 18, 2018

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Stavros is Greek.

Has this ever been affirmatively stated? If his name were indeed "Stavros," (a Greek name), I'd agree with you, but since it's STAVOS (no "r"), I wonder. Stavos is more commonly a Czech or similar middle-European name. And he's played by Anthony Arkin, who's Alan Arkin's son. They are not of Greek descent, although that means nothing.

The Roy Rogers scene made me crave a Double-R Bar Burger!

Suit salesman: "That hangs beautifully."

Phil: "Do you have a coffin I could try it out in so I can see how it looks lying down?"

sistermagpie · May 18, 2018

7 hours ago, Bannon said:

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Based on the fact that's Paige, she has no idea what Gorbachev's background is or how long Claudia has been in the U.S. Paige might have thought they crossed paths before Claudia came to the U.S and before Gorbachev came to power. Or Paige really is that clueless and thinks a deep cover KGB agent went to the Kremlin for an event and met with Gorbachev. Either way it's a sort of valid question.

Yes, if Paige is a moron, which is an unfortunate way to write the character of Paige. That was my point.

Little thing, but Claudia actually did go back to the USSR at some point during the first four seasons. Not that this makes it that much more likely than she would have met the guy. But I guess it's possible in that it's possible a CIA agent might have met the president once.

The more I think about it the more interesting the Paige direction in. They're so very committed to Paige never actually being a part of any conversation that Elizabeth and Claudia have. It almost makes it seem like she's clinging to her role as the child, not wanting to be there on equal footing by having actual knowledge about the summit. She was a bigmouth at Thanksgiving calling Bork an asshole and she had that fight with Elizabeth where she claimed she was being told who to sleep with (when she wasn't). But here she is after months of doing all this stuff for the summit and she seems to know very little about anything. She's being kept out of a lot of secret conversations about what Elizabeth's doing but not filling the gaps by reading up on other things. I'm not even clear what Paige's opinion on Gorbachev is. Has she picked up on Claudia and Elizabeth's negativity?

10 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Has this ever been affirmatively stated? If his name were indeed "Stavros," (a Greek name), I'd agree with you, but since it's STAVOS (no "r"), I wonder. Stavos is more commonly a Czech or similar middle-European name. And he's played by Anthony Arkin, who's Alan Arkin's son. They are not of Greek descent, although that means nothing.

I've never been totally sure but this show has so many authentic Russian accents it seems unlikely they'd have a guy doing a fake one that sticks out so much. His tick of calling Philip "Mr. Philip" is something that lots of people do if they're uncomfortable calling a boss by their first name in English but it doesn't seem like Russians are known for doing the "Mr. So-and-So" thing.

J-Man · May 18, 2018

Do you think Elizabeth necessarily sides with either the pro- or anti-Gorbachev factions? I just think she's pissed at The anti's (like Claudia) because they're treating her like she treats Paige -- i.e., not being told the full truth about what's going on.

suomi · May 18, 2018

I think Elizabeth sees her young self and her current self in the painting. Feeling anguish is not the sole province of the elderly. I think she is drawn by the subject's emotion rather than her age. And also maybe wondering "Is this my fate? Will I spend my elderly days feeling this?"

Clanstarling · May 18, 2018

I TV cheated on my husband to watch this tonight. He's working and won't be able to watch until Saturday, and that is just way too long. So I confessed - and I'll watch it again with him. I knew that if I waited until Saturday to get to the forum, there'd be no way to catch up.

22 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Well I was about to complain about the lack of Philip (and I’m still frustrated), but him saying: I put our country first, which is what you would have done. Was. Everything. He did what he thought was right. And articulated it to her. And to the audience. And reminded her of her own priorities over the years. Thank you.

I loved this moment. I think that it is part of Elizabeth's epiphany. She was angry and wouldn't have processed it at that moment, but she did, eventually.

21 hours ago, Erin9 said:

@sistermagpie

I was pleased too that Philip was wary enough about Elizabeth to not let her contact Oleg directly. Elizabeth had to spell it all out to him. Which was great for him and us.

I hadn’t put together what exactly Philip was doing watching that movie, but I think you nailed it. He was watching a Russian movie reminding himself of what he was dying for, what he’d put first.( I think he expected Elizabeth to betray him.) What a contrast to the Paige propaganda fest.

The real Claudia finally showed up tonight. I’ve been waiting.

Yep, I said "there's the woman you beat the crap out of way back when."

18 hours ago, jjj said:

I thought it was very odd that the husband of Erika left her to die with Elizabeth, after he had sat with her for a day in extremis. Did he expect Elizabeth/Stephanie to finish the job for him?

Yes, I think he did. They'd already spoken of the possibility, if I recall correctly. She chose an odd method, imo. But then again, she used an artist's tool to bring death and relief to an artist, so maybe it worked metaphorically.

14 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

its not surprising at all that Claudia is an anti Gorbachev hardliner. What is surprising is that Elizabeth isn’t and that Claudia has been lying to her this whole time. Possibly more then we know.

I've always felt Elizabeth (and Phillip's) loyalty was to their country - not to a particular political faction. Just like our soldiers and spies. The hardliners want a quiet(ish) coup, which is treasonous. So I don't find Elizabeth's stance at all strange.

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't know how it worked back then, but, my understanding now is that if you are on Hospice, the Hospice doctor signs off on the death and there is no need to call medical examiner, police, etc.

Yes, that is the way it was for my mother when she passed. That breathing is horrible to hear in real life, I did not like hearing it again.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Agreed about the real Claudia showing up and how Philip did not let Elizabeth get away with one of her halfway-gestures by just telling her how to get in touch with Oleg. He's not out anymore. He even offered to help with whatever she had that night and she totally naturally gave him the meet with Father Andre.

I've always thought it reminded her of her mother. But it's a striking picture as well. And well set up the way she was always truly drawn to it and it was huge so there was no way you could think she was just grabbing something to placate the guy.

I totally buy her falling for Claudia. That's one of the weaknesses of someone like Elizabeth. If you prove you're "one of us" then you can get away with a lot. Elizabeth recognizes that she and Claudia have the same attitude about the Cause. She likes being able to commiserate with her over Philip not being that way. She then naturally assumes that Claudia sees everything the same way she does and isn't lying to her. Claudia also got smarter about not bringing Philip up--I almost expected her to say "like Philip" when she was warning about Elizabeth throwing things away. But she's made sure to be very careful about that, having told Elizabeth she was wrong about him.

I loved that Philip was cautious in that regard. He was holding someone else's safety in his hands.

I always looked at the portrait and saw emotional pain. It could remind Elizabeth of her mother, but I always wondered (because she looked at it a lot), if Elizabeth saw her own pain on that canvas. Most of the artist's work evoked that to me, and I found them very compelling

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She's pissed, as @Erin says better later, that her husband lied to her, spied on her, has been deceiving her for months. She's not pissed at his cause, it's the personal part of it that irks.

It hasn't flipped. She's always be loyal and willing to do anything for her country. She's a soldier.

She just found out that this latest assignment is AGAINST her country, against her President, who isn't the asshole he is being painted to be, and against a very loyal, dedicated, kind, intelligent man who IS fighting for his country, and for the world as well. Claudia's orders were to frame him, and kill him.

Philip told her the rest of the story earlier.

Claudia lied and manipulated her for her own reasons, not for the good of the world, or the USSR.

I agree with all of this. Also, "protecting you" is another way to say we duped you into doing what we knew you wouldn't do if you understood the ramifications.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Though I do still think Stavos is being too OTT in his resentment, as much as I loved his scene if only for that line about the back room. As great as he is at being loyal and not calling the police about whatever (I take him at his word that he doesn't literally know they're KGB spies--he seems too smart to have let himself know too much) he seemed like a terrible travel agent. Hey, maybe he's a parallel to Paige! :-)

I don't really think Stavos is OTT. He's worked for them for many years, they were a small team, like family. And they fire him when he's middle aged and will have trouble finding a new job. Also, I don't think he was necessarily a bad travel agent - they did fine with him when they were a small shop. It's when Philip expanded and brought in new people that his numbers went down in comparison. I did love that he said "No!" when Philip asked if he could come in. I guess I'm good at nursing a grudge, so I respect that. ;)

As for Renee, I could not be less interested in her. I am not familiar with the actress, and haven't found her interesting or particularly suspicious. If she does ultimately end up being important, good on ya. If not, I won't mind.

Erin9 · May 18, 2018

The weird thing about Paige is she is capable of independent research. She is not imo stupid. Though she’s being willlfully ignorant right now. Nor is she listening to her dad.

We saw her reading about Christianity and Marx- and she paid some attention to what she’d read. She went to the library to learn more about Gregory and the civil rights movement. She went off to find “Aunt Helen” because she didn’t believe she existed. The only reason she knows the truth is she demanded answers. She’s more than capable of putting the pieces together and pushing for answers when it suits her, it seems.

But when it comes to understanding the reality of the USSR, she’s not doing the research. She must not really want to know. Instead, she’s just listening to her mom and Claudia tell stories, bonding, getting in touch with her heritage, playing spy games. She’s not passionate about spying either. She read up a little on spying, but still doesn’t know all she should. And maybe she doesn’t really want to. IDK. It would probably tell her more than she wants to know about her parents, despite choosing spying as a profession.

Dev F · May 18, 2018

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The recapper here calls it Olympia Dukakis. ;~) I honestly though Elizabeth would take a small one.

Ha! I actually watched a play recently in which the lead actress looked really familiar, and I was trying to remember what I'd seen her in before -- but it turned out she just looked a whole lot like Olympia Dukakis, too! Apparently my memory is oversensitive to Olympia Dukakis-ness.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I've always thought it reminded her of her mother. But it's a striking picture as well. And well set up the way she was always truly drawn to it and it was huge so there was no way you could think she was just grabbing something to placate the guy.

Yep, that's basically where I came down on it -- that it was a maternal thing, and potentially also an "Old woman I killed that one time" thing. Though that was also a maternal thing, so six of one, half dozen of the other.

On rewatch, it's interesting how that "Choose a painting" scene echoes my initial read on the episode as a depiction of a "summit" in a more figurative sense; just like Philip is looking around at all these different roles he could be playing or has played and trying to figure out which path defines him, Elizabeth is looking around at all these paintings and deciding which one speaks to her.

It also potentially lends greater meaning to the scene where the the FBI guys are looking at all the sketches of Philip and Elizabeth. "They're either all the same people, or all different people." Truth is, they're both. There are only two of them, but there are so many different people they could each end up being.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You kind of answered your own question. ;~)

Yes, Claudia was completely covering her own ass, not Elizabeth's as she claimed. If Elizabeth were caught, or the plans to overthrow Gorbachev failed? Claudia didn't want to go down for it. Claudia's been alive for a long time, and there is a reason for that. She's a wily old spy. Also? Spies lie, all the time.

But like I said, if Claudia is just lying, then Elizabeth's choice becomes a lot less interesting. The more Liz is rejecting Claudia because she's going to throw her own officers under the bus, the less she's rejecting her because she doesn't want to be the kind of person who would kill a good man to depose another good man. The most interesting scenario, it seems to me, is one in which Claudia was legitimately trying to protect Liz, but Liz has to reject her mission anyway. I just can't figure out how that holds together, logically speaking.

On rewatch, though, the rest of the Dead Hand plan makes a bit more sense. Like most of the summit stuff this season, the pacing is much too rush-rush-rush -- wouldn't you expect Claudia or one of the other hardliners to at least listen to the Nesterenko tape before deciding that it's enough raw material to craft a good fake and sending Liz off to kill him? But the basic premise of surveil/frame/kill hangs together. And I realized what Claudia meant by "We also had to get Dead Hand to work, I'm sure you understand that," which is not just that they want a functioning defense system, but that they need evidence that the system is going to work if they want to demonstrate that it's bad news for Gorbachev to trade it away.

jjj · May 18, 2018

Claudia had generally been written as a shrewd character, but this week, she just came across as stupid and unthinking. Her spiel to Elizabeth just sounded like Stepford Spy -- We do what we are told, and don't wonder why.

sistermagpie · May 18, 2018

44 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Do you think Elizabeth necessarily sides with either the pro- or anti-Gorbachev factions? I just think she's pissed at The anti's (like Claudia) because they're treating her like she treats Paige -- i.e., not being told the full truth about what's going on.

I don't think she sides with either one either. She has opinions, maybe, but what she was joining here wasn't so much a pro-Gorbachev thing in general. She was against the lack of integrity in killing good men and ruining their reputations and changing her intel to put their own person in power. Basically doing to the country what gets done to people like Martha. I don't think she'd been able to think the whole thing through in terms of what she thought about everyone but she instinctively recoiled at what Claudia was saying.

This also makes me think of Elizabeth's father the traitor--he might have been labelled that unfairly.

40 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I TV cheated on my husband to watch this tonight. He's working and won't be able to watch until Saturday, and that is just way too long. So I confessed - and I'll watch it again with him. I knew that if I waited until Saturday to get to the forum, there'd be no way to catch up.

Was your confession a tense one in the living room where he accused you of loving to talk? ;-)

40 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I always looked at the portrait and saw emotional pain. It could remind Elizabeth of her mother, but I always wondered (because she looked at it a lot), if Elizabeth saw her own pain on that canvas. Most of the artist's work evoked that to me, and I found them very compelling

Yes, I agree. I thought Elizabeth might have first noticed it because it reminded her of her mother but it was more than that. She had to put herself into it.

6 minutes ago, Dev F said:

It also potentially lends greater meaning to the scene where the the FBI guys are looking at all the sketches of Philip and Elizabeth. "They're either all the same people, or all different people." Truth is, they're both. There are only two of them, but there are so many different people they could each end up being.

OMG, that's fantastic.

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

Claudia had generally been written as a shrewd character, but this week, she just came across as stupid and unthinking. Her spiel to Elizabeth just sounded like Stepford Spy -- We do what we are told, and don't wonder why.

I didn't think she sounded like a Stepford Spy at all. Claudia knew exactly why getting rid of Gorbachev was the right thing to do. He wasn't history, he was the future--and Claudia, as we've seen this season more than ever but it was always true--wants the past. Claudia was wrong in thinking Elizabeth would agree with her, but Claudia herself fully understood why she was doing this, imo.

Erin9 · May 18, 2018

19 minutes ago, jjj said:

Claudia had generally been written as a shrewd character, but this week, she just came across as stupid and unthinking. Her spiel to Elizabeth just sounded like Stepford Spy -- We do what we are told, and don't wonder why.

It sounds very typical of what the party line has been all along. Don’t think. Just do as you’re told. That’s what Philip said earlier.

But Claudia did explain it all. She probably thought she could get Elizabeth back into line by articulating her POV. Usually Philip is the thinking problem child.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Erin9

Tetraneutron · May 18, 2018

23 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I totally agree with this part. Also, what exactly is McIlraith? Does it exist? Is it a Soviet front group? If Jackson hadn't looked inside the box, what would have happened when he showed up to the first day of the management training program?

Yes, it exists (in the world of the show). What would have likely happened was "Wendy" would have given some bs excuse about him not getting the job after all and disappeared. Or just disappeared. Maybe killed him like she does everyone else. This isn't the first time P or E got info from people by lying to them.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Why did Claudia need to tell Elizabeth the truth in order to get her to kill him? Wouldn't it have made more sense to come up with something Elizabeth would go for after keeping her secret all this time if the only goal was to manipulate her and she's saying she has a problem with killing the guy when he's clearly not doing what she's been told he's doing? Claudia's confirming Elizabeth's suspicion. When Elizabeth tells her she's out she lets her leave.

Of course, but she obviously still let Elizabeth walk home and tell immediately. The information is probably going to be on its way, so she made the same mistake Elizabeth did.

Same reason they let Philip walk away, I suppose. Either the aggregate work they do is still valuable enough, it would jeopardize the whole operation to kill them, Paige is too important, or they're stringing the Jenningses along and will use them for their own purposes later. We'll find out.

What I thought was interesting about that scene was (and the show didn't really address this) Elizabeth just found out she's being lied to. The higher-ups see her as a useless manipulatable pawn, just like she sees Jackson. A dummy who will blindly follow orders without thinking for herself. There were a lot of parallels in those plots. In each case Jackson or Elizabeth was supposed to do their jobs without asking questions. But they did and it ended badly for Jackson (although it's the only time the audience doesn't see him as a joke). Now Elizabeth's just another Jackson to Claudia and the directorate? Does that change how Elizabeth sees her job?

5 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

OBVIOUSLY, the husband could have easily just used a pillow

No, I don't think most people could smother a loved one with a pillow.

duVerre · May 18, 2018

31 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I always looked at the portrait and saw emotional pain. It could remind Elizabeth of her mother, but I always wondered (because she looked at it a lot), if Elizabeth saw her own pain on that canvas. Most of the artist's work evoked that to me, and I found them very compelling

I think the paintings work on us, the viewers, in much the same way as they work on Elizabeth. Each of us has a personal relationship to them, and so we will all interpret this particular step toward Elizabeth's change of heart in a different way. They're a kind of dramatic Rorschach test. We know that the art is a trigger for Elizabeth--and assume that it triggers her the same way it has triggered us.

For myself, I have no idea what Elizabeth sees in those paintings. But I think she knows they represent what was going on inside of Erica, and whether she thought she saw Erica's fear, anger, violence or her road map to the Emerald City, the point is that she thought she saw INSIDE. She put herself in someone else's shoes. What she saw there is almost irrelevant. It's enough that the paintings made her empathize with someone else. And because she thought she saw into the soul of Erica, she began to see into herself as well. So all of that is part of a chain that causes her to conduct a mercy killing, let the terrified intern live, and consider some new ideas.

Umbelina · May 18, 2018

I think Elizabeth has chosen a side, now that she has the whole picture.

She was moved by both speeches, on the tape, and on the television. It's one thing she's always dreamed of, a world without nukes, and this was the first step.

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S06.E08: The Summit

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