S05.E20: The One Who Will Save Us All

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

Just to clear this up I never blame YoYo or gave her hate for it I actually believe what YoYo did was the right decision

 

 

Alright but like you I don't blame her for her action but I have seen some people on Reddit express hatred for this character. I just don't get it, she did it because she had to do it. Maybe some feel like since Hale went straight to the Confederacy of Aliens and wanted to take out SHIELD/finally finish what they started, some may feel that was  the direct cause of the end of the world since some people just didn't put together (since it was an action that was further away from seeing Hale's actions) that Fitz and Simmons are more or less the ones to blame for starting this? Not Yo-Yo. 

 

Overall, this show makes me so frustrated with how it's written and it's internal logic (or lack of one), IMO. Also, the fanbase for this show can just also upset me as well. 
 

Quote

 

not sure trying to save Coulson should be the top priority right now either though 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, this shouldn't be a top priority but this is just how the writing is going. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by TVSpectator

[kitlee625]

17 hours ago, jhlipton said:

When Daisy told Simmons "You either save Coulson or you're out", I cringed again.  And of course Simmons folded, because saving Coulson (who doesn't want to be saved) is far more important than saving Earth.  Shove it, Daisy.

This has me frustrated with Daisy, May, and Coulson. Daisy and Coulson have been annoying me for a while, but I usually like May. However, her whole "Coulson must be saved NO MATTER WHAT" is just crazy and doesn't make any sense IMHO for the story or the character. She's a SHIELD agent, who has sacrificed a lot over the years for the greater good. So why is she willing to ignore the world blowing up all for her love of Coulson? Why is Coulson oh-so-special?

16 hours ago, rmontro said:

And seeing what is becoming of Talbot only demonstrates further that she did the right thing.  How much worse would Ruby be, since she was morally questionable to begin with?

Not only that, but Ruby couldn't even control her powers, so she was a much much greater threat than Talbot. I mean, she accidentally killed von Strucker - who knows what she could have done if let loose.

4 hours ago, Froippi said:

Yea sorry not fixing the team fracture issues with only 2 episodes left 

I really don't see how the writers are going to bring the team back together in a way that makes sense. But then again, I think a lot of this season doesn't make a lot of sense. So probably the team is going to hug it out and then go for pancakes.

1 hour ago, TVSpectator said:

They are totally ruined as characters. Their actions have literally (now) put the world in danger because they are such idiots and started the entire chain of events into motion. Now, I don't blame Yo-Yo when it came to killing Ruby and why the fuck everyone is hating on her when it's really Fitz and Simmons' fault I have no idea. I am just tired of the fact that the writing would have these characters do/cause these events and don't take responsibility/actually show the (logical) fallout for them. 

I've never been a big fan of Fitz or Simmons, but this season is really ruining it for me. And yeah, I am really annoyed that everyone is shitting on Elena, but ignoring that Fitz and Simmons have been doing way more problematic/evil stuff. And isn't Fitz supposed to have had a psychotic break back there? I guess that's just all disappeared as soon as it wasn't convenient for the writers.

[SnoGirl]

10 hours ago, blueray said:

I thought that it would be interesting if they break the timeline and got reset back the the restaurant scene. However, the characters somehow still remember the whole thing.

I can’t see how they’re going to break the timeline at this point. They’re literally setting up everything for the Earth’s fracture. I’m surprised Phil’s not already seeing those pieces line up. 

AND we have a Thanos and Avenger name-drop? If they break the time-loop I hope

Spoiler

They end up at the diner, and then poof, they get dusted. At this point, I don’t even know who I want them to save.  

They have really lost what Shield means at this point. They’re not protecting the world, they’re saving themselves. Elena, at least, is attempting to stop the fracture. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 5/5/2018 at 12:21 AM, fellini said:

Ruby cut off YoYo's arms and then later  YoYo kills her. I don't get why Daisy and Mack are mad about Ruby dying.

Mack is super annoying about this. Plus I'm sorry, but if your go to weapon is a shotgun axe you don't get to criticize the rest of your team when they kill people.

On 5/5/2018 at 1:38 PM, NUguy514 said:

Right, but since the show has always sold itself as a part of the MCU, 

  Hide contents

the ending of Infinity War should still heavily impact this show since Thanos instantly dusted half the population of the universe.  Half or so of the characters (main, recurring, guest, human, inhuman, and alien) should be dusted.  There was already the throwaway mention of events in New York last week; I don't know how long the events of the movie took, but it didn't seem like more than a few days.  I don't think quite that much time has passed in the timeline of the show since last week's episode, but the clock better be ticking on this show, too.  I'll be really annoyed if no one is dusted.

Spoiler

I figured that Infinity War took place over a day or two at most. After Tony and Peter left earth there didn't seem to be any food or anything on the space ship or on Titan. And they made a point of Thor being able to transport himself instantly back to earth with his new hammer. I am curious to see if anyone important does get dusted. Especially since if it happens, any reversal won't happen until nearly the end of next season when Avengers 4 comes out. Plus the cause of such reversal will happen completely off screen.

[NUguy514]

@Kel Varnsen That's exactly what I was thinking, too.

[VCRTracking]

I meant to post this last week but WOW, the visual FX have improved a lot since the first season!

Oh Talbot. The Gravitonium really brought out the worst in him.

Loved the Thanos mention and Infinity War

I think Deke mentioned he was FitzSimmons' grandson because Daisy had just talked about how she's not over Lincoln. You don't mention your the future grandchild of your two friends if you think you have a shot.

3 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

This has me frustrated with Daisy, May, and Coulson. Daisy and Coulson have been annoying me for a while, but I usually like May. However, her whole "Coulson must be saved NO MATTER WHAT" is just crazy and doesn't make any sense IMHO for the story or the character. She's a SHIELD agent, who has sacrificed a lot over the years for the greater good. So why is she willing to ignore the world blowing up all for her love of Coulson? Why is Coulson oh-so-special?

Don't put May and Daisy's actions on Coulson. He has insisted that nobody and they went behind his back. He's not the one who's pulling a "Starlord".

3 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

I've never been a big fan of Fitz or Simmons, but this season is really ruining it for me. And yeah, I am really annoyed that everyone is shitting on Elena, but ignoring that Fitz and Simmons have been doing way more problematic/evil stuff. And isn't Fitz supposed to have had a psychotic break back there? I guess that's just all disappeared as soon as it wasn't convenient for the writers.

Everyone hasn't. Jemma and Fitz have been defending her. Mack has his morals and Daisy is mad because she was getting through to her. I think May is pissed because Elena brought up that Coulson has to die to save the world.

3 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

I guess that's just all disappeared as soon as it wasn't convenient for the writers.

Mack brought it up in a brutal way so it's definitely not forgotten.

I still think that half the team will end up in the timeline where the Earth is destroyed and be stuck in a timeloop (May, FitzSimmons, Elena) while the others remain in the timeline where the Earth is intact (Coulson, Daisy, Mack and possibly Deke), which also happens to be the one effected by the events of Infinity War.

 

It would be very ironic if Daisy went through all the trouble to save Coulson only for him to turn to ash after Thanos snaps his fingers. Or Daisy and Mack could go and Coulson to be left alone without a team just as he was in the beginning.

Edited May 7, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Prin Holmes]

On 5/5/2018 at 7:06 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

Hale is finally dead. So that is a positive at least. 

Seriously, did she or Ruby kick any of your puppies?  Did Catherine Dent or Dove Cameron do that, for that matter?  I seriously don't see what any of you had against either of their characters.  They just seemed more woefully underdeveloped than actively bad.

[greeneggsandham]

21 hours ago, blueray said:

I thought that it would be interesting if they break the timeline and got reset back the the restaurant scene. However, the characters somehow still remember the whole thing.

This is REALLY interesting, and the only way for them to not be immediately affected by the movie, but how much time has gone by since the diner?  Would they have enough time to have all their next season's episodes BEFORE Thanos arrives in their timeline?  Then they would be seeing the consequences of Infinity War Pt 1 at the end of next season instead of this one.  (Provided they get another season). 

Edited May 7, 2018 by greeneggsandham

[Miles]

On 5.5.2018 at 2:28 PM, Lobsel Vith said:

They're the same people who excuse Fitz for what he did. Elena is held to a different standard because she isn't Fitz, or even Deke (who was excused for his actions).

Citatation needed. I'm sure there are some. But quite often those are actually different people and they just bleed together in the social media frenzy.

I for one think Elena and Deke both did the right things, given the situations. When Deke sold out Daisy he wasn't part of the team and he had survived in a rough environment for a long time, so fair enough. He also earned a lot of points back when he was willing to die to let them get back to the past. Fitz is kinda in a grey area, further complicated by the fact that he had a mental break.

On 5.5.2018 at 4:06 AM, Froippi said:

Can someone please get Mack to stop saying we our better than that Gravitonium is so unpredictable 

Can you please use some punctuation and make sure what you wrote isn't missing half the words? Your posts are unreadable.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Miles

[Chicago Redshirt]

Glenn! Aaaaaah! Savior of the universe!

Glenn! Aaaaaah! He'll save every one of us!

Glenn! Aaaaaah! He's a miracle!

Glenn! Aaaaaah! King of Gravitonium!

I forget: does this Glenn Talbot have any sort of backstory with the Hulk?

[Kel Varnsen]

I am curious why people think the gravitonuim power is so good. He doesn't seem any more powerful than Daisy, since he has to be looking at someone to attack them. I just wonder what is stopping someone from shooting him in the back of the head.

[kitlee625]

21 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Don't put May and Daisy's actions on Coulson. He has insisted that nobody and they went behind his back. He's not the one who's pulling a "Starlord".

I didn't mean for it to sound as if I were doing that. I actually think that Coulson accepting his death and not wanting extreme, life-extending voodoo is completely understandable, and I really respect that he wants to spend his last days doing something meaningful for the world rather than trying to save himself. But there are other parts about his characterization that annoy me.

Edited May 8, 2018 by kitlee625

[jhlipton]

On 5/6/2018 at 8:57 AM, Lobsel Vith said:

Mack had every right to call Fitz's behavior out. Mack lost Hope for a second time because of AIDA, he was injured protecting Elena from one of Fitz's robots, one of his friends was tortured by Fitz, and Fitz helped encourage Elena's toxic mentality in thinking she's invincible. Fitz effectively destroyed Mack's relationship with Elena. Mack had every right to call out what Fitz has turned into.

Fitz isn't some child who needs to be coddled, he's a grown man, and he gets to hear criticism when he screws up. As for Elena, the whole ordeal with Ruby came about because she helped Fitz and Simmons. She betrayed Mack to help them, and Fitz is a potential danger to everyone right now. He has a right to be upset about that.

I think you're thinking of May telling that to Elena. Daisy ordered Simmons to investigate the bones of her mother, but May was the one who made it clear to Elena that she needed to leave the base by the time they get back if she wasn't onboard with what they're doing.

I have no problem with Mack calling Fitz out -- Fitz thoroughly deserved it.  It was his "high-horse" moralistic "my way or the highway -- we never kill  (until we do)"  attitude that got me.  As @Kel Varnsen mentioned above, someone who carries a shotgun-axe doesn't get tell others that "we don't kill".  In fact, he was ready to kill the alien before he was stopped!

As for Yo-Yo -- yes, she was part of the dumb-ass plot to help Fitz and Simmons, but she alone of the three (four if you count Daisy) realized that they had gone horribly wrong and that Ruby needed to be stopped by any means necessary.

I've forgotten what Daisy said to Simmons, but it was't a request.  Simmons was researching pretty important, until Daisy pulled her onto the We Must Save Coulson track.

23 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Mack is super annoying about this. Plus I'm sorry, but if your go to weapon is a shotgun axe you don't get to criticize the rest of your team when they kill people.

  Hide contents

any reversal won't happen until nearly the end of next season when Avengers 4 comes out. Plus the cause of such reversal will happen completely off screen.

Spoiler

Yeah, that's what I figured to.  The only way this season works is if it ends before the start of Infinity War.

17 hours ago, Prin Holmes said:

Seriously, did she or Ruby kick any of your puppies?  Did Catherine Dent or Dove Cameron do that, for that matter?

They were the blandest and most boring actors on the show in quite sometime.  Say what you will about Deke, at least he shows some emotion.

Edited May 8, 2018 by jhlipton

[Prin Holmes]

2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

They were the blandest and most boring actors on the show in quite sometime.

Because the characters they played required them to be!

[jhlipton]

2 minutes ago, Prin Holmes said:

Because the characters they played required them to be!

That's as might be, but I'm still glad they're gone.

[kitlee625]

I feel like a lot of the villains on the show have been woefully bland/pointless. Usually the Hydra ones: Malick, Malick's daughter, Whitehall come to mind as particularly dull villains. Even though I loved EJO in Battlestar Galactica, I thought Gonzales was another underdeveloped, underutilized antagonist with the whole Real SHIELD nonsense in season 2. 

 

I thought Hale and Ruby were fine, certainly better than Malick and Whitehall. But YMMV.

Edited May 8, 2018 by kitlee625

[jhlipton]

I rather liked Whitehall -- one of the few unrepentant villains.  His repeating "discovery requires experimentation" was a call-back to Nazi experiments on concentration camp victims.  I thought, all in all, he was one of the best villains on the show.

[Jack Kerouac]

On 5/6/2018 at 8:08 PM, Froippi said:

Just to clear this up I never blame YoYo or gave her hate for it I actually believe what YoYo did was the right decision

 

not sure trying to save Coulson should be the top priority right now either though 

 

starting to look like Daisy going to the alien ship might have consequences since House of Kasius has her now

One thing is certain - Daisy will always make stupid emotional decisions that get her or someone else in trouble.

 

Wait. That could be said for EVERY character. How are they super spied again? What spy organization doesn't sanction killing people?

[jhlipton]

14 minutes ago, Miles said:

Only in character explaination is that Mack is a massive racist who doesn't consider alien life on the same level as humans.

Well, again, shotgun-axe -- has he not killed any humans with it?

[Lobsel Vith]

14 hours ago, Miles said:

Citatation needed. I'm sure there are some. But quite often those are actually different people and they just bleed together in the social media frenzy.

You can easily spend less than two or three minutes checking twitter, reddit, or one of the AoS communities to verify what I'm saying. This isn't a 'citation needed' moment - you're not asking me for information about an episode, you're asking me to point out what people are saying online, which is relatively easy for anyone to find.

14 hours ago, Miles said:

I for one think Elena and Deke both did the right things, given the situations.

Selling someone into slavery for money is never "the right thing". And this is why I find the incorporation of Deke into this show so infuriating. We've literally come to the point where some in this fandom are defending slavery.

14 hours ago, Miles said:

When Deke sold out Daisy he wasn't part of the team and he had survived in a rough environment for a long time, so fair enough. He also earned a lot of points back when he was willing to die to let them get back to the past.

Deke has veered between blaming Daisy for his actions (in dialogue with Daisy) and alternatively using his childhood and upbringing as an excuse (in dialogue with Coulson and May). I'm not inclined to do what the SWW fandom did and handwave Deke's actions for the same reason those folks handwaved Ward's atrocities - which was using his past to whitewash everything he did in the present. Characters like Tess, Ben, and Flint grew up in the Lighthouse the same as Deke, and none of them decided to sell people into slavery or work for Kasius.

14 hours ago, Miles said:

Fitz is kinda in a grey area, further complicated by the fact that he had a mental break.

Except Fitz regained his senses and proceeded to torture the inhibitor out of Daisy, and then he defended his actions, to the point of blaming Daisy for what he did. Then he worked with Simmons and Yo-yo to escape his cell, and endangered the whole of humanity by giving in to Ruby after the Pod was damaged.

[Cranberry]

If a post is furthering the never-ending Deke debate and is not about this particular episode, it goes in the Deke thread. Any further posts that ignore this directive will be deleted.

[Kel Varnsen]

14 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Well, again, shotgun-axe -- has he not killed any humans with it?

I always hate the kill vs don't kill debate in super hero stories. The one between Daredevil and The Punisher in DD seasons 2 was annoying, but the writing in this episode made that debate look like something out of The Wire in comparison.

[teenj12]

I liked the Infinity War tie-in, and how the events of the movie is what caused the events of this season of AOS. We haven't had that level of connection to the movies in a while, so it was nice to be reminded of the larger world they're a part of. 

All in all, I'm looking forward to a full out battle between Quake and Graviton, and I'm wondering just how true the prophecy will end up being. 

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, teenj12 said:

I liked the Infinity War tie-in, and how the events of the movie is what caused the events of this season of AOS. We haven't had that level of connection to the movies in a while, so it was nice to be reminded of the larger world they're a part of. 

All in all, I'm looking forward to a full out battle between Quake and Graviton, and I'm wondering just how true the prophecy will end up being. 

Since when did Thanos blow up the Earth? This season's main plot thread has nothing to do with Infinity War at all but I think now it's really making the show suffer. I mean we know that Talbot isn't going to face off with Thanos at all but people are still waiting for that one thing (and if you have already seen Infinity War then you know what it is). 

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I always hate the kill vs don't kill debate in super hero stories. The one between Daredevil and The Punisher in DD seasons 2 was annoying, but the writing in this episode made that debate look like something out of The Wire in comparison.

On Gotham, Bruce Wayne was manipulated into killing someone who, only a few episodes earlier, had killed a10 year old boy in front of Bruce, just to prove a point.  But, Oh My God, killing a homicidal psychopath  is such a terrible thing, he lost his freaking mind. (And I won't get into how many people Batman has doomed because he won't kill the Joker!!)

But it wasn't just that -- it was also the smack across the face of Christianity that Mack espoused -- and expected Fitz to follow as well.  I don't recall Mack talking about his faith before, so that came off as poorly as Talbot's complaint against "Democrats".  It's almost as if this episode was written by one of the more annoying "Christians".

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Since when did Thanos blow up the Earth? This season's main plot thread has nothing to do with Infinity War at all but I think now it's really making the show suffer. I mean we know that Talbot isn't going to face off with Thanos at all but people are still waiting for that one thing (and if you have already seen Infinity War then you know what it is). 

And this is one thing I hate about the show, that I have to either go see a movie as soon as it comes out or accept getting spoiled for it. (I also dislike movies/tv shows that don’t make it clear upfront that they’re two parters)

[teenj12]

18 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Since when did Thanos blow up the Earth? This season's main plot thread has nothing to do with Infinity War at all but I think now it's really making the show suffer. I mean we know that Talbot isn't going to face off with Thanos at all but people are still waiting for that one thing (and if you have already seen Infinity War then you know what it is). 

I didn't say he did...? But the whole reason the Confederacy came is because of Thanos. Had the Confederacy never shown up, there wouldn't of been an attack on the base and Glen wouldn't of become Graviton, and thus whatever events transpire between him and Daisy (we're still unclear who the true Destroyer of Worlds is) that cracks the Earth apart - thereby setting in motion the loop in the first place.

[TVSpectator]

On 5/9/2018 at 5:25 PM, teenj12 said:

I didn't say he did...? But the whole reason the Confederacy came is because of Thanos. Had the Confederacy never shown up, there wouldn't of been an attack on the base and Glen wouldn't of become Graviton, and thus whatever events transpire between him and Daisy (we're still unclear who the true Destroyer of Worlds is) that cracks the Earth apart - thereby setting in motion the loop in the first place.

I thought the the Confederacy came to Earth because of Hale?

[Teitr Styrr]

They came to Earth for Gravitonium. I don't think they cared how they got it, but yeah they were working with Hale to begin with. They didn't come for Thanos. If they knew he was coming, they might have buggered off. 

[Maverick]

The Confederacy knew Thanos was coming.  They used that knowledge to frieghten Hydra/Hale into begging for the Confederacy help.  They were extorting Hydra for resources and never had any intention of helping. 

[Cranberry]

No movie spoilers in the episode threads, please! (Unless the episode itself spoils the movie's ending, in which case there's not much we can do!)

[CooperTV]

If the writers wanted for me to actually hate Mack, Daisy and May, they sure made it easy this episode. OMG, how this show became so bad?!

[Jack Shaftoe]

Mack, I love you but shut up about Ruby's "execution". This attitude would be stupid even in a show where the protagonists did everything to avoid killing - and this is most certainly not such a show. Maybe in early season 1 it was but they have been killing for a long time now, Mack most certainly included. The Ghost Rider was not just killing but also sending people to some sort of hell, I don't recall Mack complaining very much about accepting help from him. If he wanted to refute Fitz's point, he should have asked him why he didn't bother ask Daisy about removing the inhibitor. Or why he told nobody that he was hearing "Dr. Leopold". Or why he helped Radcliffe hide AIDA, etc. It's not like Fitz's only mistakes of late have been "sacrificing the few to save the many". It's good that they actually had a conversation about the little mutiny issue but Mack came across as a really dumb hypocrite. Unacceptable.

And Mack also complained that Fitz hadn't convinced Jemma and Elena to cut this "we are invincible" crap. Well, he tried but they wouldn't listen, what more was he supposed to do?

Daisy and May insistence of curing Coulson against his will and in the midst of desperate attempts to prevent the imminent destruction of Earth is gross. Especially after Yo-you told them his death might help avoid the bad timeline.

Everyone seems to forget that Simmons was the leader of the mutiny. She is my favourite character, don't get me wrong but why is she getting a pass? There are very real issues the protagonists should be arguing about but they keep arguing about the non-issue Ruby's death and attempting to save Coulson, as if this can't wait a day or two until they deal with, you know, the alien invasion.

I did like Talbot squashing Hale like the cockroach she was. Though I really I don't need to see all his kills in all their gruesome bone-crunching detail.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Jack Shaftoe