S13.E21: Beat The Devil

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, belbar said:

They've sent cannon out the window in a lot of things and that, to me, is frustrating to no end. T

Just because I love this typo. I'm literally picturing a cannon out of Dabb's window, launching past episode scripts. :)

[belbar]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

You're right MMV.  I think the leadership is very evident and they have a thought-out plan.  I suspect they've had to make some shifts during the season, and IA they've played fast and loose with some of the lore, but I don't think the stories are "whims".  Personally, lore consistency is a big deal to me.  Robbie Thompson used to be really good about it.  I think Yockey pays attention too.  I put Bobo Berens in that list until this episode, this episode he didn't do as well as he has in the past when it comes to the lore.  I think Robert Singer doesn't give a shit about lore.  I think Dabb cares but he has some strategic plot in mind and lets lore morph to fit the overarching "Point A to Point B".  

This episode:
1) Got our heroes in the AU and together with Jack and Mary
2) Got Lucifer in the AU and meeting up with Jack
3) Rowena trying to keep the rift open

I think that's what Dabb wanted to accomplish.  And I think the character moments (which Singer has said is what he cares about the most) were pretty outstanding.  I think Berens delivered a tense hour of television with some awesome action, good character moments, and put all the pieces in place for the next two episodes.

Well turns out that our MV just in one thing. I agree with much of what you said above. The difference is that if Dabb just cares for the big picture and he doesn't matter what every (frequently rookie) writer is doing in the way to get from point A to point B, to me IMO we have a problem because along that road consistency and a cohesive story is totally lost. And yes I'd pegged Singer as a "moments" guy, it's very old school, but to me a few moments here and there are good enough for eventual viewers, but again don't make a good story. You see, I'm also considering the big picture here and in that sense all rules seem to have been sent scattered to the four winds.

Of course it all comes to what you're looking for when watching a show, so all is personal opinion, but mine clearly doesn't fit Dabb's one.

On the other hand, and regarding the writers, I've come to learn to discern them. To pay attention to who's writing the episode of the week because many of you are always pointing out that. But I shouldn't have to do that IMO. This is a serial show. Again and of course IMO all the episodes put together should tell a cohesive narrative. I, as viewer, should be able to enjoy the final product for its quality and not have to adapt to the preferences and wishes of the writer of the week. Aw tonight episode is written by D.Perez, okay is gonna be a bad night for Dean if he shows up before the end. Oh look tomorrow we have a Berens episode so we'll get superman Sam resurrecting once again. That's a mess IMO, and good part of the showrunner job is to put order in that mess and Dabb doesn't do it.

So I don't see Dabb a good leader just because he has a vision of what he wants to do with the show and the story. A good leader will supervise and assist his team to get there in the best possible way. That's the way I think it should be. Not what we're getting. What we get is a guy with a vision (allegedly) and letting everybody to do their thing in however way they want,  and Singer checking the accounts and making sure we get some moments here and there. That's the reason why I think there's no leadership.

You know when my kids were little I used to tell them "details are what make the difference" and here the details are dead.

Edited May 8, 2018 by belbar

[belbar]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ust because I love this typo. I'm literally picturing a cannon out of Dabb's window, launching past episode scripts. :)

LOL. Guilty of not proof reading. To atone for it I'm gonna propose you to tie Dabb to the cannon before going out the window. What about that?

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

Dabb just cares for the big picture and he doesn't matter what every (frequently rookie) writer is doing in the way to get from point A to point B

This is my discontent with Dabb.  The plot skims along, like stones bouncing on a lake.  We never get deep.  There's no time for emotion, impact or consequence because the focus is getting from A to B, getting your characters in line for the next big plot wallop.   Sam dies covered in blood. Commercial.  He's saved!! Yippee!!  Never expected that!  Duh!

Thank goodness we have decent actors or this series would be buried in  shock & awe mire.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

This is my discontent with Dabb.  The plot skims along, like stones bouncing on a lake.  We never get deep.  There's no time for emotion, impact or consequence because the focus is getting from A to B, getting your characters in line for the next big plot wallop.   Sam dies covered in blood. Commercial.  He's saved!! Yippee!!  Never expected that!  Duh!

Thank goodness we have decent actors or this series would be buried in  shock & awe mire.

Well Jensen did sell it for the one hot minute it was on screen. I was gutted even though I knew it would not last.  I did think it would last until the next episode tbough... silly me.

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, SueB said:

You're right MMV.  I think the leadership is very evident and they have a thought-out plan.  I suspect they've had to make some shifts during the season, and IA they've played fast and loose with some of the lore, but I don't think the stories are "whims".  Personally, lore consistency is a big deal to me.  Robbie Thompson used to be really good about it.  I think Yockey pays attention too.  I put Bobo Berens in that list until this episode, this episode he didn't do as well as he has in the past when it comes to the lore.  I think Robert Singer doesn't give a shit about lore.  I think Dabb cares but he has some strategic plot in mind and lets lore morph to fit the overarching "Point A to Point B".  

This episode:
1) Got our heroes in the AU and together with Jack and Mary
2) Got Lucifer in the AU and meeting up with Jack
3) Rowena trying to keep the rift open

I think that's what Dabb wanted to accomplish.  And I think the character moments (which Singer has said is what he cares about the most) were pretty outstanding.  I think Berens delivered a tense hour of television with some awesome action, good character moments, and put all the pieces in place for the next two episodes.  

Good posts.

Additional thoughts...

1. Dean has been shown losing it.  Ketch noticed it.  I think he was written this episode deliberately as out of it... whether it is his declining mental state or he is still being slowly debilitated by bullet poison ?!!!... but it is deliberate and Jensen played it as such.  Merely entering the AU drained him of life.  He came to only when Sam was in trouble but then it was too late.

2.  TFW is broken. Dean appears to be the walking dead in spirit. Gabriel is limp.  Sam has PTSD and impulse control issues again.  Cas who is supposed to be some great warrior displayed none of that and I still remain suspicious that he is conpromised by the empty entity.  Or simply without Dean holding the center They are ragtag.

I think that the issues that are garnering the most complaints were quite deliberate.

3. They had to leave the body to save themselves at that moment. Dean going back was a suicide mission. 

4. If Dean is slowly dying from bullet poison, Sam's resurrection may be foreshadowing of Dean's death and resurrection by Cage Michael.  Writers love that sort of thing.  I am struggling to understand why else they would jam it in.  Sure it puts Dean closer to the edge but it is,an unnecessary and gratuitous step.

5.  Rowena is surely going to connect Michael to Dean with a bat of those lovely overly made-up eyes. It is the only reason she is alive, redeemed and solidly on TFW.

11 hours ago, belbar said:

Well turns out that our MV just in one thing. I agree with much of what you said above. The difference is that if Dabb just cares for the big picture and he doesn't matter what every (frequently rookie) writer is doing in the way to get from point A to point B, to me IMO we have a problem because along that road consistency and a cohesive story is totally lost. And yes I'd pegged Singer as a "moments" guy, it's very old school, but to me a few moments here and there are good enough for eventual viewers, but again don't make a good story. You see, I'm also considering the big picture here and in that sense all rules seem to have been sent scattered to the four winds.

Of course it all comes to what you're looking for when watching a show, so all is personal opinion, but mine clearly doesn't fit Dabb's one.

On the other hand, and regarding the writers, I've come to learn to discern them. To pay attention to who's writing the episode of the week because many of you are always pointing out that. But I shouldn't have to do that IMO. This is a serial show. Again and of course IMO all the episodes put together should tell a cohesive narrative. I, as viewer, should be able to enjoy the final product for its quality and not have to adapt to the preferences and wishes of the writer of the week. Aw tonight episode is written by D.Perez, okay is gonna be a bad night for Dean if he shows up before the end. Oh look tomorrow we have a Berens episode so we'll get superman Sam resurrecting once again. That's a mess IMO, and good part of the showrunner job is to put order in that mess and Dabb doesn't do it.

So I don't see Dabb a good leader just because he has a vision of what he wants to do with the show and the story. A good leader will supervise and assist his team to get there in the best possible way. That's the way I think it should be. Not what we're getting. What we get is a guy with a vision (allegedly) and letting everybody to do their thing in however way they want,  and Singer checking the accounts and making sure we get some moments here and there. That's the reason why I think there's no leadership.

You know when my kids were little I used to tell them "details are what make the difference" and here the details are dead.

They say that the devil is in the details.  Maybe Mark Pellegrino has been singing very loudly off-key non-stop and they cannot concentrate.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:41 PM, SueB said:

You'e not wrong - the rules of "grace" have been really managled this year. And they could have EASILY given us some sense of Castiel's powers and limitations but flat out fail to do so. 

As I understand it, by the end of this episode:
- Gabriel is basically nearly zero, enough to take out warding, not enough to blow away vampires, fuel a rift opening, or resurrect anyone.
- Cas is a regular angel, he could take out maybe ONE vampire at a time but the time he took out a diner-full was when he was storing 'souls' for his heavenly battle, he hasn't been that powerful since.  They've established that Cas' grace waxes and wanes with Heaven being open or shut to him.  He couldn't heal Dean in S4 when he was cut-off from doing so and Naomi 'closed' Heaven to him.
- Lucifer likely snacked on Heaven's Angels a bit at a time until they realized he couldn't bring back their wings.  When Aneal walked out of him, I suspect his supply dried up.  But he has also been back from the AU for quite some time, so I think he was pretty powerful when he was captured by Gabriel and Rowena.  I think the ONLY way he was taken down was the use of magic by Rowena -- which has been established as being able to effect the angels. Then Lucifer lost a shit-ton (I'd warrant he was back to having just come back from the AU-level).  Rowena angered him enough to overcome her cuffs (which is consistent) and she blasted him through the rift (which was already open).  Then Lucifer "ate" a half dozen regular AU angels.  Apparently that was enough to give him resurrection powers.  THAT (IMO) is the big stretch.  But, that's the leap they want us to take.

We won't know how much power he really has until he has to use his power next episode.  But I bet Jack could take him right now.  And I bet Lucifer will lie about what he can do.  He expended a great deal IMO to raise Sam back up because Sam is the perfect gift to offer to get to Jack.  I think he'll hide his weakness for a while and try to bluster his way through.  

Cas lost ALL of his grace and became human.  

He was eating angel grace without any of his own.  It was a different scenario.

Lucifer lost A PORTION of his grace.  So I can see how it might eventually recharge... or that archangels might have different capabilities than angels.  Or thst gobbling a little grace might give him a temporary energy boost.

[Res]

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Good posts.

Additional thoughts...

4. If Dean is slowly dying from bullet poison, Sam's resurrection may be foreshadowing of Dean's death and resurrection by Cage Michael.  Writers love that sort of thing.  I am struggling to understand why else they would jam it in.  Sure it puts Dean closer to the edge but it is,an unnecessary and gratuitous step.

5.  Rowena is surely going to connect Michael to Dean with a bat of those lovely overly made-up eyes. It is the only reason she is alive, redeemed and solidly on TFW.

Or Dean barely makes it back to our world as he follows AU Micheal through the rift and he's destroyed by AU Mike. Rowena already has OW Micheal in place when she gets the dying call from Dean but they don't make it to Dean in time. Michael possesses the body a second before or right as it passes, negating the necessity of agreement.

So, Dean steps up but it ends badly so Rowena and Micheal manage to short cut the permission thing in their rush to save Dean. Hence, Michael!Dean is born to fight AU Michael. Only problem is that after the fight, Dean's still not home so Michael just leaves with this body.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:41 PM, SueB said:

You'e not wrong - the rules of "grace" have been really managled this year. And they could have EASILY given us some sense of Castiel's powers and limitations but flat out fail to do so. 

As I understand it, by the end of this episode:
- Gabriel is basically nearly zero, enough to take out warding, not enough to blow away vampires, fuel a rift opening, or resurrect anyone.
- Cas is a regular angel, he could take out maybe ONE vampire at a time but the time he took out a diner-full was when he was storing 'souls' for his heavenly battle, he hasn't been that powerful since.  They've established that Cas' grace waxes and wanes with Heaven being open or shut to him.  He couldn't heal Dean in S4 when he was cut-off from doing so and Naomi 'closed' Heaven to him.
- Lucifer likely snacked on Heaven's Angels a bit at a time until they realized he couldn't bring back their wings.  When Aneal walked out of him, I suspect his supply dried up.  But he has also been back from the AU for quite some time, so I think he was pretty powerful when he was captured by Gabriel and Rowena.  I think the ONLY way he was taken down was the use of magic by Rowena -- which has been established as being able to effect the angels. Then Lucifer lost a shit-ton (I'd warrant he was back to having just come back from the AU-level).  Rowena angered him enough to overcome her cuffs (which is consistent) and she blasted him through the rift (which was already open).  Then Lucifer "ate" a half dozen regular AU angels.  Apparently that was enough to give him resurrection powers.  THAT (IMO) is the big stretch.  But, that's the leap they want us to take.

We won't know how much power he really has until he has to use his power next episode.  But I bet Jack could take him right now.  And I bet Lucifer will lie about what he can do.  He expended a great deal IMO to raise Sam back up because Sam is the perfect gift to offer to get to Jack.  I think he'll hide his weakness for a while and try to bluster his way through.  

I was surprised at the seal breaking too especially after the big impressive hooplah in the backdoor WS pilot.  Ehhh... maybe that is just a blanket power of archangels independent of grace kind of like Metatron could handwave warding too.  It is more a lore thing than a grace thing... much like  Gabriel's power at the bar was all magic and no grace.

AU vamps may have different power levels than our vamps and these were hungry vamps.

I said elsewhere... in season 9 Cas lost ALL of his grace which is a different situation.  Lucifer lost a part and angels can recharge from that. Grace snacks give temporary power boosts much like Mario coins.  So yes if Lucifer had a lot of snacks I guess he could resurrect Sam.  I imagine he is pretty weak now tbough.  He is nowhere near full power yet because he did have to goad Rowena into pissing him off.

Regarding Cas... I had been assuming that post Metatron he would never be at full grace again but now that we know about this recharging power of angels... he is back to full grace I guess whatever he was. when resurrected in season 7 or really when resurrected at season 13 I guess.  Who knows what that weirdo did?

Cas cannot resurrect. He can heal as long as the injury does not preclude it for some weird magical, cosmic, arcane reason.  He did ran at Sam full speed to get him for healing however it was too late 

[belbar]

1 minute ago, Res said:

Or Dean barely makes it back to our world as he follows AU Micheal through the rift and he's destroyed by AU Mike. Rowena already has OW Micheal in place when she gets the dying call from Dean but they don't make it to Dean in time. Michael possesses the body a second before or right as it passes, negating the necessity of agreement.

So, Dean steps up but it ends badly so Rowena and Micheal manage to short cut the permission thing in their rush to save Dean. Hence, Michael!Dean is born to fight AU Michael. Only problem is that after the fight, Dean's still not home so Michael just leaves with this body.

That could be a nice story.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, Res said:

Or Dean barely makes it back to our world as he follows AU Micheal through the rift and he's destroyed by AU Mike. Rowena already has OW Micheal in place when she gets the dying call from Dean but they don't make it to Dean in time. Michael possesses the body a second before or right as it passes, negating the necessity of agreement.

So, Dean steps up but it ends badly so Rowena and Micheal manage to short cut the permission thing in their rush to save Dean. Hence, Michael!Dean is born to fight AU Michael. Only problem is that after the fight, Dean's still not home so Michael just leaves with this body.

No Dean?  Well if so it will not last long.  Logistics are the wildcard.  I mean I hope he is in there. Of course given his mental state.  He was barely in there for a lot of the episode.  And when he came back it was too late to save Sam and he was gutted. Poor Dean.

DEAN!Michael...  seems to be where we are heading.   

I saw the Apocalypse and Dean!Michael since 12:1. Did I predict Jack and AU Apocalypse and AU Michael. No.  Logistics... that is beyond even my Italian witch blood.  

5 minutes ago, belbar said:

That could be a nice story.

Especially if illustrated with many photos of shirtless Dean and Dean!Michael.

[Res]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

No Dean?  Well if so it will not last long.  Logistics are the wildcard.  I mean I hope he is in there. Of course given his mental state.  He was barely in there for a lot of the episode.  And when he came back it was too late to save Sam and he was gutted. Poor Dean.

DEAN!Michael...  seems to be where we are heading.   

That's what I'm saying. Not that Dean's gone permanently. Just that he's not answering ATM. TPTB love flipping things so this could be a similar "Gadreel" storyline only this time it's Dean that needs to heal.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, Res said:

That's what I'm saying. Not that Dean's gone permanently. Just that he's not answering ATM. TPTB love flipping things so this could be a similar "Gadreel" storyline only this time it's Dean that needs to heal.

Yeah.  That is what I am thinking.  I misunderstood you at first.  He needs a staycation.

On 5/7/2018 at 6:58 PM, sarthaz said:

Fanwanking is basically my new full-time job. On this one, I've decided that archangels regenerate grace differently from other angels, and I've also decided that anything that happened to Cas isn't really applicable, because God rebuilt him with special rules each time.

1. Cas had NO grace not LOW grace which is actually different.

2. The crazy entity in the empty may have altered Cas in some way.  They wasted a lot of time on that guy in a very important episode so there may be a twist.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/6/2018 at 6:39 PM, SueB said:

Lucifer also couldn't teleport when low on grace.  But Luci has been building up his grace for months.  OTOH, he lost a shit-ton to the dripping bowl.  So, Gabriel having insufficient grace makes sense, but I'm not sure Luci transported to Sam -- maybe short hops?  

Snacking along the way.  Every time he teleported lunch was delivered.

[Castiels Cat]

On 5/7/2018 at 11:43 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Should be called what it truly is - PLOT GRACE.  

I had no complaints about lighting or whatever in the tunnel.  My complaints lie with the editing department in term of the tunnel scenes.

They were deliberately borrowing from two modern horror classics Rec and The Descent which were both shot in dark enclosed spaces.  These films were lauded for their fresh take on horror in part because of their settings.

I thought they were successful in the staging.  They were going for a deliberate all out clusterFCK. Apparently this is what happens when Dean mentally checks out and also foreshadows that tbings are gettng much worse before tbey get better, something Dean well knows.  Methinks they are going dark. 

I thought Sam seemed awfully foolish prior to the cave... so full of optimism and hubric bravado.  Dean has "known" all along that the mission was doomed.  I think he just feels that the odds are against them... beating another Apocalypse?... yeah... right.  Somebody... somebodies are not making it.

I think it is great that they are going dark again.  I am interested in seeing the next two episodes. I know that the pacing will be racing. The last two episodes are usually horrible that way.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They were deliberately borrowing from two modern horror classics Rec and The Descent which were both shot in dark enclosed spaces.  These films were lauded for their fresh take on horror in part because of their settings.

Did someone from the show confirm this? Cause to me it looked like they were actually borrowing from Wendigo more than anything. 

[Castiels Cat]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did someone from the show confirm this? Cause to me it looked like they were actually borrowing from Wendigo more than anything. 

I have seen both of the films.  I do not need anyone from the show confirming it.  The Descent takes place in a cave with multiple connecting tunnels with a small group of people beset by a large number of cave dweller planning to eat them.

Likewise Rec takes place in a darkened ild apartment building with a small group of survivors fighting off a large number of zombies trying to eat them that can be coming from any number of directions. 

Wendigo had ONE wendigo making the action quite different although yes there was a cave... I will give you that.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did someone from the show confirm this? Cause to me it looked like they were actually borrowing from Wendigo more than anything. 

I thought they were going with the movie Daybreakers.  The vampires had depleted the human race and were reverting to their Nosferatu state.  Without human blood they turned savage.

It was filmed in the same mines and tunnels used in Wendigo.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I have seen both of the films.  I do not need anyone from the show confirming it.  The Descent takes place in a cave with multiple connecting tunnels with a small group of people beset by a large number of cave dweller planning to eat them.

I've seen the Descent as well and didn't pick up that vibe from the scene at all. IMO, it was deliberately calling back to Wendigo more than anything with some adjustments for a nest of vampires vs the Wendigo. Your sentence was written so matter of factly that it seemed like maybe you saw a tweet or the like where they talked about what they were going for there.

Ah well, that's what makes the world go round. Different things people take away from scenes is always interesting to me. Thanks for the reply.

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought they were going with the movie Daybreakers.  The vampires had depleted the human race and were reverting to their Nosferatu state.  Without human blood they turned savage.

It was filmed in the same mines and tunnels used in Wendigo.

And here I thought those creatures looked like Bat Boy ( Kripke's avatar).  I love how people get so many different things out of it.  Maybe they were throwing in a little bit of My Bloody Valentine for Jensen. 

[Casseiopeia]

38 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought they were going with the movie Daybreakers.  The vampires had depleted the human race and were reverting to their Nosferatu state.  Without human blood they turned savage.

It was filmed in the same mines and tunnels used in Wendigo.

I take that back.  I just read that they built those tunnels in a  giant abandoned warehouse.  Very impressive.

[OnceSane]

We realize the season is drawing to an end, but spoilers in this thread (or any other non-spoiler thread)need to have spoiler tags.  Thanks!

[Jonesy]

Late to reviewing this, wasn't sure about in on first watch and watched it twice.  Overall I liked it...uneven but effective.   Give it 8 out of 10.  Mark Pellegrino was exceptional in this episode and his final word to Jack was perfectly delivered  and a perfect ending of the episode.  Jensen was outstanding with his reaction to Sam's death and then talking to Mary.   Thought at first Rowena/Gabriel fell flat and forced but on second viewing it clicked for me.   The reactions of the boys were hilarious...especially Cas with head down and staring hard at the floor with embarrassment.

[Miles]

On 7.5.2018 at 11:08 PM, belbar said:

Maybe I'm being a little picky here but, nobody remebers when Cas lost his grace? With borrowed grace he wasn't at full power and could not recharge (he needed his original grace for the recharge). Apparently he was "burning" the borrowed grace at an alarming speed and getting weaker. And he was an angel borrowing another angel grace. This was a big part of his arc in season 9. Here we have an archangel (stuff of a primordial creation according to Chuck) but with some apparently small quantities of loaned grace (from a low angel) he was good to go. And after some RR in Heaven is good enough to go back in full power. Then he's AGAIN drained of a massive amount of grace (man that was a lot) but hey with a couple of snacks in low calorie/low carb angels he is great again. Nobody thinks that's another WTH moment?

I mean you aren't wrong, but the writers have mangled the lore so much, this barely even registers. I can grudingly accept that if you still have your original grace, you can refill it with other angel's graces and it will work. Their grace gets filtered through yours so to speak.

 

On 8.5.2018 at 2:08 AM, belbar said:

I think that they've managled more than grace this year. They've sent canon out the window in a lot of things and that, to me, is frustrating to no end. There're no rules any more. We're constantly at the whim of the writer of the week. There's no leadership in the ship and it shows. IMO.

Um, this year? they did that years ago. There is so much canon that contradics itself I can't even remember all of it.

One of the ones that still annoys me to no end is that burning a demons bones destroys it. Makes no fucking sense.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Miles

[S Cook Productions]

Ok, since I'm here now...I'll put in my 2 cents on this episode. :)

I actually really liked it. I know that at 41 I'm too old for Tumblr, but on Tumblr this ep has received many positive reviews...here, it is pretty mixed, it seems. 

My hubby (who is a much more casual viewer than I although he was originally who introduced me to SPN) and I both got a big kick out of the Rowena/Gabriel antics. I guess we could just imagine the two of them doing that...fits their respective personalities, IMO. I also personally found the Gabe and Cas "personal space issue" scene pretty amusing- but that was I think because of their facial expressions. I thought this ep had a good mix of comedy, horror, drama, and action...although it was jarring how it jumped between all of those emotions- it didn't bother me all that much.  This probably should go under UO, but I enjoy watching Lucifer. He uses annoyance as a defense mechanism when his power is low, and IMO that is a canon characteristic of him. Of course, I don't think anyone thought for one moment that the end of Sam would stick...but it didn't deter me from being glued to the sadness displayed by both Dean and Cas (and later Jack and Mary). Yes, sometimes the writing leaves something to be desired...but the acting on this show is superb. I'm a Producer IRL, so I've seen my fair share of bad acting...but this ain't it. All in all, I'd put this episode in my top 5 of the season...but then again, I probably unfairly weight Cas episodes higher.

[millennium]

On 5/3/2018 at 10:26 PM, SueB said:

See, it's not Sam's death that gets you -- it's Dean's PAIN.  

 

No, it was Sam's death.   I wasn't expecting it, and the gory brutality of it stopped me cold.   It was very upsetting to me.  I had to stop the show and come here to see if it was real.   I suspected it wouldn't take, because Sam had not yet satisfied his destiny of killing Rowena (although I wondered if Rowena would make an ill-advised trip to Apocalypse World and be killed by an undead Sam) but you just can't be sure what shows are going to do nowadays.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

No, it was Sam's death.   I wasn't expecting it, and the gory brutality of it stopped me cold.   It was very upsetting to me.  I had to stop the show and come here to see if it was real.   I suspected it wouldn't take, because Sam had not yet satisfied his destiny of killing Rowena (although I wondered if Rowena would make an ill-advised trip to Apocalypse World and be killed by an undead Sam) but you just can't be sure what shows are going to do nowadays.

Legit.   It WAS traumatic for me too, the arterial spray was horrifying.   And Sam experienced that death and then had to face a resurrection by Lucifer.  Sam has always felt ‘tainted’, now he’s alive but probably feels gross about who and why.   

[millennium]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Legit.   It WAS traumatic for me too, the arterial spray was horrifying.   And Sam experienced that death and then had to face a resurrection by Lucifer.  Sam has always felt ‘tainted’, now he’s alive but probably feels gross about who and why.   

Yes.  Sam is the moral center of the show, so the indignity of being brought back to serve as a pawn for Lucifer must feel incredibly degrading.   You could see it on his face when he walked into the outpost.       

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

Sam is the moral center of the show,

I was unaware of this? 

[Myrelle]

I think this episode was just very predictable. The only question in my mind was who was going to be responsible for resurrecting Sam. Turned out it was Lucifer instead of Dean, which worked better for me. Jensen's acting made it worth the one time watch for me, but I'm more than ready for the finale now.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Legit.   It WAS traumatic for me too, the arterial spray was horrifying.   And Sam experienced that death and then had to face a resurrection by Lucifer.  Sam has always felt ‘tainted’, now he’s alive but probably feels gross about who and why.   

It's no secret I'm a Dean fan first, but I agree whole heartedly with this. Of all the ways Sam could've been resurrected, this is probably the worst thing they couldve done to him. I hope there is ar least a point to it.

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I was unaware of this? 

You and me both. I might argue there is no moral center to the show any more, but I never thought it was Sam. Nope. 

[catrox14]

I actually kind of laughed when Sam was attacked because it wasn't scary**. It looked stupid IMO because I legit thought it looked like water coming out of Sam, not blood. I thought it was a bad stunt, badly performed. I found it absurd that Sam would be taken out by two vampires who were much smaller than him. It was ridiculous. Even Dean's reaction didn't get to get to me. Dean's shock when Cas told him there was no hope got to me. And I also knew Sam wasn't going to stay dead. And since I predicted back when the "True Face" thing came up a few eps ago, I wasn't the least bit surprised that Lucifer resurrected him. 

The biggest surprise to me was Dean not fighting harder with Cas about Sam's status.  That's it. 

** I wasn't laughing like HAHA this is funny but more like this looks ridiculous and it's not scary. No, I wasn't laughing that Sam got attacked. If the scene were staged the same way with Dean or Cas being attacked in the same manner I would have the same complaints and it wouldn't be scary. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by catrox14

[BabySpinach]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I actually kind of laughed when Sam was attacked because it wasn't scary**. It looked stupid IMO because I legit thought it looked like water coming out of Sam, not blood. I thought it was a bad stunt, badly performed. I found it absurd that Sam would be taken out by two vampires who were much smaller than him. It was ridiculous. Even Dean's reaction didn't get to get to me. Dean's shock when Cas told him there was no hope got to me. And I also knew Sam wasn't going to stay dead. And since I predicted back when the "True Face" thing came up a few eps ago, I wasn't the least bit surprised that Lucifer resurrected him. 

The biggest surprise to me was Dean not fighting harder with Cas about Sam's status.  That's it. 

** I wasn't laughing like HAHA this is funny but more like this looks ridiculous and it's not scary. No, I wasn't laughing that Sam got attacked. If the scene were staged the same way with Dean or Cas being attacked in the same manner I would have the same complaints and it wouldn't be scary. 

It was pretty contrived for Sam to get taken down by two vampires. Made him look like a bit of a chump, and reminds me of all the plot and character stupidity required to get Charlie killed off. I heavily disliked her, but even I got angry at the ridiculous situation that played out to get to that end point.  

What really stood out to me about Sam's death was Dean turning mute. I don't recall him ever reacting like that before, and it was very effective for him to stay silent and let that Single Man Tear/OPT do all the talking. The flashback of Sam's death to explain Dean's emotions was completely unnecessary, though. The editing doing what it does, as always... 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

What really stood out to me about Sam's death was Dean turning mute. I don't recall him ever reacting like that before, and it was very effective for him to stay silent and let that Single Man Tear/OPT do all the talkin

Yeah, I didn't really pick up on Dean not talking until he was with Mary and couldn't say the words.  That was an interesting aspect of Dean's reaction.  He couldn't say Cas was dead either back in 13.01. He couldn't say the words himself.  And interestingly Mary was the only person he could say was dead.  I wonder if deep down inside Dean wishes Mary had never been brought back.

9 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The flashback of Sam's death to explain Dean's emotions was completely unnecessary, though. The editing doing what it does, as always... 

I didn't mind seeing Dean having flashbacks when he was walking alone. But why they repeated with Mary seemed pointless unless they were trying to go for Dean having more flashbacks and he couldn't say it as exposition.  Hard to say with the current editors.

[MysteryGuest]

Since Dean was struggling to break free of the one vamp he was fighting with, I'm going to assume that this version of vampire may be stronger than what they normally come across.  They did say that because of a lack of food source, they turned wild and were nothing but pure hunger or appetite, or something like that.  Anyway, due to this, it didn't surprise me that Sam couldn't fight off two of them at the same time.  The special effects of the squirting blood didn't bother me that much, which is surprising since I normally can't watch those scenes, but the few scenes of Sam just lying there were very effective, I think.  He genuinely looked dead.  And Dean's facial expressions after Sam had called out to him for help, and he knew he couldn't get there in time, really got to me. 

I'm not sure if it was someone on this board, or some other site that I saw it on, but a poster made an interesting observation.  Even though we as the audience know that neither Sam nor Dean are going to die until the show is over, Sam and Dean don't know that.  Trying to look at it from their perspective does help to add drama to these storylines.  

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Even though we as the audience know that neither Sam nor Dean are going to die until the show is over, Sam and Dean don't know that.  Trying to look at it from their perspective does help to add drama to these storylines.  

I think even Sam and Dean don't necessarily believe they will stay dead these days. 

[MysteryGuest]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think even Sam and Dean don't necessarily believe they will stay dead these days. 

I'm not so sure about that.  I think they fully expect their luck to run out at some point.  I know I would.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not so sure about that.  I think they fully expect their luck to run out at some point.  I know I would.

If luck was the only factor in their not being dead, I would agree.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not so sure about that.  I think they fully expect their luck to run out at some point.  I know I would.

I think when Dean spoke to Billie in AT he thought that was "it".  I think how firm she was in Red Meat convinced Dean that there was nothing he could say or do to convince her -- and he just lucked out to be brought back and Sam only mostly dead.  

@catrox14 I think someone upthread mentioned it, but in case it wasn't on this board, arterial spray DOES look that unreal.  Especially from the neck.  My son had arterial bleeding from his forearm (which is much less) and was able to get a tourniquet on it, but he would have bled out in 3 mins if he hadn't.  As it was the blood pool from where the car hit him (he was a pedestrian and a drunk driver came up on the sidewalk ... we are lucky he's alive... all good now...), was so large that the police cordened off the area and dug up the surrounding dirt. On the police "drawing" it looked like a very large area -- and he had compression on it almost immediately and a tourniquet just a minute later.   

Of course you can't tourniquet a neck wound and Dean would know that.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

@catrox14 I think someone upthread mentioned it, but in case it wasn't on this board, arterial spray DOES look that unreal.  Especially from the neck.  My son had arterial bleeding from his forearm (which is much less) and was able to get a tourniquet on it, but he would have bled out in 3 mins if he hadn't. 

I never complained about how fast it came out. I've seen the video of the hockey player who's throat was slit by a skate and it gushed that quickly. My beef was that I thought it looked like water not blood. That's what looked fake to me. Not a thing to do with how fast it came out. I swear I wrote that in my  comment about it looking fake.

[Whodunnit]

Sorry, wrong episode.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Whodunnit

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I never complained about how fast it came out. I've seen the video of the hockey player who's throat was slit by a skate and it gushed that quickly. My beef was that I thought it looked like water not blood. That's what looked fake to me. Not a thing to do with how fast it came out. I swear I wrote that in my  comment about it looking fake.

I rewatched that part today and it does look like water. It might be a trick of the lighting, but it did not look like blood at all.

[DeeDee79]

On 5/10/2018 at 10:50 AM, Pondlass1 said:

I was unaware of this? 

So was I.

[lmdreamer]

one thing that bothered me about this episode was that as powerful as Rowena is she couldn't come up with a single shushing spell? Silencio, tongue removal, nothing?

[ILoveReading]

On 5/10/2018 at 2:43 PM, catrox14 said:

I wonder if deep down inside Dean wishes Mary had never been brought back.

Will respond in the Dean thread. 

[The Companion]

On 5/3/2018 at 8:14 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

The beginning of the ep was a utter trash, with everything being turned into lame jokes and Berens channeling his inner BuckLeming with the mind-numbingly stupid Rowena/Gabriel sexy scenes.

Yes, SPN can have comedy even in tense situations, but it needs to be subtle for it to work. Here, the dumb side completely took over the first 10 minutes, yet I was supposed to go right back into serious mode when they jumped into the rift. Well no, that's not how it works.

 

It was so weird. Jokes about virility followed by those voiceovers? We did not need to hear their thoughts. It was a bizarre choice.

On 5/3/2018 at 8:26 PM, MysteryGuest said:

  Gabriel with his face in Cas' crotch went on far too long.

Agreed. 

On 5/8/2018 at 6:23 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Well Jensen did sell it for the one hot minute it was on screen. I was gutted even though I knew it would not last.  I did think it would last until the next episode tbough... silly me.

It was so quick, it almost felt like they just felt like they had to check off one of the brothers is resurrected on Supernatural bingo. 😆

There were some decent creepy bits, but the bizarre pacing and sudden tone shifts in this episode didn't work for me. 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, The Companion said:

On 5/3/2018 at 9:26 PM, MysteryGuest said:

  Gabriel with his face in Cas' crotch went on far too long.

Agreed. 

half a second is too long for something like that unless it genuinely just happens by accident, in which case 3 seconds is too long.