S16.E14: Jon Meacham, Michael Tubbs, Michael Hayden, Sally Kohn, and Matt Welch

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

TOP-OF-SHOW:Jon Meacham

MID-SHOW INTERVIEW:Mayor Michael Tubbs

THE PANEL:Michael Hayden, Sally Kohn & Matt Welch

 

[arachne]

Is it just me -- or was this the most unfunny Real Time in recent memory?

Jon Meacham was good -- he makes me want to read his new book. But Bill had to shoot him down every time he said something vaguely hopeful about American opinions. 

The mid-show bit about "incels" -- not funny at all. I could sense discomfort in the audience's reactions (very little laughter to speak of.)

The mayor of Stockton has good intentions with his city's guaranteed income program, but I doubt it could ever work on the national level. 

While I agree generally with Bill's final "New Rule" -- yes, attractive physical appearance appeals to us whether we want to admit it or not -- I objected to his dismissal of "snowflakes" who found fault with I Feel Pretty. I haven't seen the movie, but evidently it wanted to make a point beyond just being funny, and many people thought casting a different lead actress might have made that point better. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

First: Jon Meacham should have been on the full panel. At least he was on Overtime!

Then: I’m so very very tired of Bill’s pessimism. It’s depressing me. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t assume or take for granted that people will all come out and vote; but Bill being so dismissive of those who have been protesting and what Meacham was saying, irks.

I’m not at all sure he should have used Amy’s movie as a launching pad for criticizing liberals for their pearl clutching on whatever he said (I’m tired and can’t recall). Just made him look even more assier.

Edited May 5, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[navelgazer]

Bill's lampooning of the liberal pearl-clutching criticism of Amy Schumer's movie was a waste of Bill's national platform.  He's stuck in a time warp where his show is still called Politically Incorrect and the world's biggest problem is snowflakes on college campuses. 

I enjoyed the Meacham interview.  Meacham gets fellated nearly every day when he's on MSNBC, so being asked questions by someone who's not being a fluffer is probably a rare experience for him.  (I put his new book on my wish list, but will probably wait till it comes out in trade paperback to buy it.)

Stockton is a large city in Central California.  There's no way an educated person like Bill would know as little about it as he pretended to in his interview with Mayor Tubbs.  And Bill seemed to want to let his libertarian flag fly with his contemptuous dismissal of the Universal Basic Income experiment the mayor is undertaking.  I wanted to smack Bill for that.  

I can't believe incels are even a thing.   OKCupid is free and it takes all kinds. 

[babs1226]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

First: Jon Meacham should have been on the full panel. At least he was on Overtime!

He was a panelist back in February.  I always enjoy his visits.  I was surprised to see him back so soon, but no complaints.  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, navelgazer said:

I can't believe incels are even a thing.   OKCupid is free and it takes all kinds. 

Doesn't help because incels aren't really about not finding women to have sex with them. They're serious misogynists who think they should be able to have sex with (i.e., rape) any woman because she shouldn't get to choose. They spend a lot of their time carefully detailing how most women in the world aren't good enough for them to have sex with. Only super models are good enough--virgin super models because they believe that having sex ruins the woman's genitals so they're ugly.

Bill does women a real disservice by pretending they're guys too ugly to get a date and he's not the only one.  There's a lot of men out there who find it really hard to not agree with their basic premise of "But really, why should women be allowed to have complete freedom over who they sleep with?"

[Milburn Stone]

I'm ambivalent about Bill's treatment of Meacham. On the one hand, like some of you, I was continually irritated by Bill not allowing Meacham to make his points. On the other hand, I was getting Meacham's points despite the constant interruption. So somehow the interview did justice to Meacham, even though it didn't seem like it!

[iMonrey]

The interview with Meacham was certainly a study in optimism vs. pessimism, but I think it serves us well to take heed of Bill's warnings. He was one of the few voices sounding the alarm that Trump was going to win the election when everyone else was pooh-poohing him. A healthy dose of skepticism in the face of unbridled optimism is a necessary thing.

Overall I thought this was a very good panel and I have very few complaints, although the thing with the Incels was just weird and dumb.

I totally agree with Bill's idea that the press should just collectively get up and walk out of White House press briefings, in protest of Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Then hold their own press conference and publicly, officially denounce her. Sam Bee had an excellent segment on that lying piece of trash this week.  

I want to know more about that photo he showed of the house in Victorville covered in tumbleweeds. If that doesn't speak to global warming I don't know what does.

[ganesh]

I thought the show was solid overall. No real shouting, no extreme talking points. 

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I totally agree with Bill's idea that the press should just collectively get up and walk out of White House press briefings, in protest of Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

I take the point, but I'm hesitant when journalists are driving the news narrative. They should just consistently hold her feet to the fire and keep asking questions. Give her enough rope and let her do it herself. Plus, if the news walks out, the administration will have a field day with fake news and deep state whatever.

I don't mind Bill being pessimistic. Let's not forget our butthurt white dude "citizens" will be voting out in force in November. People need to know that this isn't normal and have got to vote en masse to shut these people up. 

Everyone needs to stop using the 'snowflake' term. It's like 'fake news'. They've both been used to end debates by the person who doesn't have substantive material with which to debate.

23 hours ago, arachne said:

I haven't seen the movie, but evidently it wanted to make a point beyond just being funny, and many people thought casting a different lead actress might have made that point better. 

I only just heard of the movie on this show. Shumer's m/o is to poke fun at her appearance within the larger societal context of how we view attractiveness. She wrote a great short for her show based on 12 Angry Men. So I can buy that the movie is about making a point around that issue. It seems like a reasonable observation that maybe they could have made the point better with another actor. I wouldn't call that being a snowflake. It sounds like Bill didn't know what the movie was about. 

On the other hand, maybe Shumer felt bad about casting someone else to be made fun of or whatever and figured she should take the brunt of the role. Shumer's taken a ton of heat for her looks actually, and now she's taken to task the other way. 

Women comics just can't win sometimes, and especially this week. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by ganesh

[b2H]

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

Everyone needs to stop using the 'snowflake' term. It's like 'fake news'. They've both been used to end debates by the person who doesn't have substantive material with which to debate. 

I have noticed that those who frequently use the snowflake term are usually the most sensitive when their views are challenged by people capable of critical thinking.

Bill may be morphing from one group into the other.  It isn’t a good look.

[Cyranetta]

What amazed me was that Matt Walsh actually said some sensible things. 

At least the panel participation seemed fairly well shared.

[meowmommy]

4 minutes ago, Cyranetta said:

What amazed me was that Matt Walsh actually said some sensible things. 

Hah!  I wish it was Matt Walsh.  I miss Veep (get well, Julia!).

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, b2H said:

I have noticed that those who frequently use the snowflake term are usually the most sensitive when their views are challenged by people capable of critical thinking.

And Bill completely missed this when they talked about Michelle Wolf justifiably eviscerating Sarah Sanders. Who were the people tearing their hair out and gnashing their teeth in the streets? That really should have been the final new rules monologue and not some Amy Shumer movie. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

33 minutes ago, ganesh said:

And Bill completely missed this when they talked about Michelle Wolf justifiably eviscerating Sarah Sanders. Who were the people tearing their hair out and gnashing their teeth in the streets? That really should have been the final new rules monologue and not some Amy Shumer movie. 

EXACTLY! I really thought he was saving that for New Rules.

As for the blue wave talk, I think there’s good reason to be cautious and not assume it’s all in the bag, yet still be hopeful due to the victories that the Democrats have had. But Bill is acting as if those don’t matter.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As for the blue wave talk, I think there’s good reason to be cautious and not assume it’s all in the bag, yet still be hopeful due to the victories that the Democrats have had. But Bill is acting as if those don’t matter.

Yeah, you don't want to get so complacent people don't vote, but there's also the danger of acting like nothing you do matters so what's the point? He does this all the time even while praising Republicans for their ability to act like winners even when they lose. Stop characterizing the Dems as the losing team even when they win!

[ganesh]

Bill and Michael Moore were two of the only people saying that people needed to get out and vote so Trump wouldn't be elected, so I can kind of get his point. There's been nice victories, but really, anyone not Roy Moore would have won in AL, and in VA it's not that huge of a victory since it leans Democrat anyway. It's encouraging that so many gop reps are retiring, but it's not like those districts are totally up for grabs. 

What's important to note that voter turnout is way way high for special elections and that really needs to keep going up. Midterms elections are notoriously low turnout and we know for a fact the butthurt vote will be out in force. 

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, ganesh said:

What's important to note that voter turnout is way way high for special elections and that really needs to keep going up. Midterms elections are notoriously low turnout and we know for a fact the butthurt vote will be out in force. 

Right, exactly. But that's why I wish he would say look, we won in this place and we did it because voter turnout was high. So on one hand telling people they have to do their part, but also showing that doing their part works.

[ganesh]

Another instance in Bill failing to grasp nuance. 

[wknt3]

22 hours ago, babs1226 said:

He was a panelist back in February.  I always enjoy his visits.  I was surprised to see him back so soon, but no complaints.  

I also enjoy his appearances. It does seem that lately Bill has been having his regulars even more quickly. I don't know if it's his laziness (just bring back the old reliables both Fox News punditbots and thoughtful writers alike as often as we can and don't bother looking for new voices) or if he's having a harder time booking with increased competition or something else, but it's definitely been a trend. It's a shame that they had him on so close together and both times failed to fully capitalize. His last time as a panelist they had an amazing panel to discuss the story dominating the headlines (mass shootings and gun control) and Bill refused to break format and devote the show fully to that topic and this time Bill couldn't adjust to do a more laid back conversational interview.

22 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm ambivalent about Bill's treatment of Meacham. On the one hand, like some of you, I was continually irritated by Bill not allowing Meacham to make his points. On the other hand, I was getting Meacham's points despite the constant interruption. So somehow the interview did justice to Meacham, even though it didn't seem like it!

It was nice to see Bill seeming to actually be interested in the topic of the interview, but it was slightly annoying since Meacham wasn't filibustering or speaking in talking points so it would have been more appropriate to let him finish his thought and then disagree. I've been happy to see Bill being more assertive post-Milo, but even when he's engaged he's still a lousy interviewer and this is just another example. But Meacham is a media pro and acquitted himself quite nicely. You don't do as many cable news spots as he has without knowing how to handle a blowhard host interrupting every few seconds.

[Caseysgirl]

Despite Bill, I enjoyed this episode. I will definitely read Jon Meacham's book because I need an intelligent historian telling me it's going to be all right. I enjoyed all the panelists and especially the young Mayor whose optimism and idealism gives me hope. I'm older than Bill but he's become such a dour old curmudgeon that I try to ignore him.

[Victor the Crab]

Is Bill a fucking hypocrite or what? Does he think we're all a bunch of dumb asses? Last year, he went on about how it was acceptable to fat shame people if they're overweight, yet he chastises those for doing just that to Amy Schumer over her movie I Feel Pretty. We all have long memories, Bill. Your attempt at constantly attacking liberals for whatever is lame and unwarranted in the age of Drumpf. Smarten the fuck up.

9 hours ago, wknt3 said:

It does seem that lately Bill has been having his regulars even more quickly. I don't know if it's his laziness (just bring back the old reliables both Fox News punditbots and thoughtful writers alike as often as we can and don't bother looking for new voices) or if he's having a harder time booking with increased competition or something else, but it's definitely been a trend.

I think it's something else.

I think there are people who are deliberately avoiding him because they may be getting tired of his attitude and behavior. It might have had something to do with him casually blurting the "n-word" on his show eleven months ago. Perhaps it was his Milo interview and how he defended that little troll. When was the last time we saw Rachel Maddow on his show? Not only that, I've noticed he doesn't make the news show/talk show circuits for quite awhile, or that he gets interviewed in magazines. And we know how he loves to pimp himself out to these outlets to speak his mind. Whatever, he certainly hasn't been the same since Drumpf became president.

[ganesh]

To be fair, Bill was on "In Principle" this week. But he's usually done some spots on CNN in the past and I haven't seen much of him outside of this show this year. 

I'm hoping that Bill made the decision to not have on typical right wingers just spouting talking points anymore than people not wanting to be on the show. He's had on some new people too.

28 minutes ago, Victor the Crab said:

Whatever, he certainly hasn't been the same since Drumpf became president.

I think this is the salient point. I don't think Bill knows what his show is right now. It's been uneven.

I mean, jokes about Trump isn't really comedy. Looking at Wolf's routine, which they talked about, all the response on Fox "News" was "these aren't jokes." No, they weren't. They weren't meant to be. It was biting commentary on how failed the nation is and how the media were culpable. Bill's doing that week in and out. It's got to be just wearing him down. I can respect that it's genuinely difficult to come up with original comedic material when the president has been relentlessly assaulting the first amendment. He honestly seemed worried when he was talking about "tanks in the streets". 

He's said several times that "this isn't normal". I wonder, since he's old enough to know Nixon if he's genuinely scared. He said on this episode that Nixon 'went away' when he knew the jig was up, and that Trump won't. I do think he might be right. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

1 hour ago, Victor the Crab said:

Is Bill a fucking hypocrite or what? Does he think we're all a bunch of dumb asses? Last year, he went on about how it was acceptable to fat shame people if they're overweight, yet he chastises those for doing just that to Amy Schumer over her movie I Feel Pretty. We all have long memories, Bill. Your attempt at constantly attacking liberals for whatever is lame and unwarranted in the age of Drumpf. Smarten the fuck up.

That's not what I took from it. It had more to do with the "woman of color" thing, calling out some site for chastising a movie based solely on the trailer, and quoting someone who felt Amy wasn't fat enough.  His Wonder Woman point was also on the mark.  There is a certain "Boy Who Cried Wolf" element to this debate, and I'm not sure everyone is seeing it. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

That's not what I took from it. It had more to do with the "woman of color" thing, calling out some site for chastising a movie based solely on the trailer, and quoting someone who felt Amy wasn't fat enough.  His Wonder Woman point was also on the mark.  There is a certain "Boy Who Cried Wolf" element to this debate, and I'm not sure everyone is seeing it. 

Yes, I remember people having trouble with the trailer and I watched it it seemed like they were totally misinterpreting it. (It seems I was right, it turns out.) People thought it was a movie like "Shallow Hal" where Schumer was supposed to be seeing herself as looking different than she does so that was offensive, but that wasn't true. She was just supposed to suddenly find her actual self great.

Then that became an issue because Schumer is too conventionally pretty for a story about low self-esteem. Which imo was also silly because self-esteem does not always match up with someone's actual looks. There's plenty of people on the internet calling her hideous all the time. It really did seem like it was possibly one of those times where the most humorless people think comedy is at best optional in a comedy.

[ganesh]

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Then that became an issue because Schumer is too conventionally pretty for a story about low self-esteem. Which imo was also silly because self-esteem does not always match up with someone's actual looks. There's plenty of people on the internet calling her hideous all the time.

Yeah, I was trying to say the same thing. A lot of her material has been about making fun of her looks. I take Bill's point, but couching the monologue in terms of 'snowflakes' I think missed the mark. Female comics have it harder as it is, and I think the argument of Bill defending comedy as an art overall is a better point. 

[DB in CMH]

5 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

Is Bill a fucking hypocrite or what? Does he think we're all a bunch of dumb asses? Last year, he went on about how it was acceptable to fat shame people if they're overweight, yet he chastises those for doing just that to Amy Schumer over her movie I Feel Pretty. We all have long memories, Bill. Your attempt at constantly attacking liberals for whatever is lame and unwarranted in the age of Drumpf. Smarten the fuck up.

I think it's something else.

I think there are people who are deliberately avoiding him because they may be getting tired of his attitude and behavior. It might have had something to do with him casually blurting the "n-word" on his show eleven months ago. Perhaps it was his Milo interview and how he defended that little troll. When was the last time we saw Rachel Maddow on his show? Not only that, I've noticed he doesn't make the news show/talk show circuits for quite awhile, or that he gets interviewed in magazines. And we know how he loves to pimp himself out to these outlets to speak his mind. Whatever, he certainly hasn't been the same since Drumpf became president.

I think Bill has lost right wingers because it is not a Trump friendly place to go. Rachel used to take Fridays off but has been putting out her own Friday show since Trump because there's never a lack of news. Her ratings are also WAY up, so I'm sure MSNBC is hesitant to give her time off.

[Pete Martell]

On 5/4/2018 at 11:35 PM, arachne said:

While I agree generally with Bill's final "New Rule" -- yes, attractive physical appearance appeals to us whether we want to admit it or not -- I objected to his dismissal of "snowflakes" who found fault with I Feel Pretty. I haven't seen the movie, but evidently it wanted to make a point beyond just being funny, and many people thought casting a different lead actress might have made that point better. 

It's all very "old man yells at cloud" to me. I don't think most people care about Amy Schumer or her film. She was much more polarizing a few years ago, and most of the harsh criticism of her has come from the comedy world, was politically based, or was for that whole thing with the guy who wrote for her show, I'm sure that people have criticized her movie for some social justice issue, but you have to work hard to go through the thinkpiece and tumblr/Twitter outrage machine to find it, most likely. Isn't his show a platform for much more important issues? Is this just yet another attempt to regurgitate the same arguments about how awful the same people are (until something happens that offends his sensibilities and suddenly he sounds a lot like them)?

Edited May 8, 2018 by Pete Martell