S06.E07: Harvest

[JBravoEcho09]

Quote

Paige communicates with people fairly well, so I call bullshit on her inability to make friends.  That is, unless she views friendship as individuals being in total agreement on her belief system. 

I think that's extremely true. I think the thing about Paige is that she inherited her mother and father's most abrasive qualities. Her mother's self-righteousness in her set of beliefs with her father's insistence on a moral code. Those two things together, along with Paige's quiet desperation for any sort of approval from her mother (which Henry has long since given up on as was made clear in the last two episodes), were the makings of a true pro-Russia believer. While squishier than Elizabeth, due to her being raised here and not in the hard-scramble world of post-war Russia, she is very, very much her mother.

And even when she did have friends (Matthew), she ended up pushing them away when things got too complicated. Also like her mother.

Edited May 10, 2018 by JBravoEcho09

[benteen]

If Paige wants to (stupidly) pursue a career in espionage, then she should be going out of her way to make a LOT of friends.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Thank you for the information.

Philip doesn't have a necklace, but that doesn't mean that he didn't take the pill out of Harvest's necklace.   If I had to guess, Philip has that cyanide pill.

Harvest took his own cyanide pill.  It was obvious, and that's why Philip stopped the compression.

5 hours ago, benteen said:

I imagine Philip and Elizabeth did buy tickets to Houston and flew under assumed names to Chicago.  Unless they sent someone in their places to Houston, it would be pretty easy to discover whether or not they actually checked in.  There's likely nothing officially linking them to Chicago but Stan would definitely know they were lying about Houston.

As has been said several times, it's likely SOP that Claudia arranges for other people to use those tickets.  You didn't have to show ID or even be the same sex to use them back in 1987.

5 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I did too. I understood him being upset, but was still annoyed. Philip has really tried with him, and he knows his dad super stressed.  Henry didn’t need to behave like that. Just another reason for Philip to be miserable. Again. 

 

We don't know why Henry had to get off the phone quickly.  Maybe he had explosive diarrhea from Renee's stuffing. Maybe he was in the middle of a study group or card game with the guys.  Maybe he was finally trying to finish that paper on Walden Pond.  Maybe he was annoyed that he made the effort to go home, instead of accepting another invitation, and didn't see his family at all.  Hell, even Paige left. 

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There was a movie way back in 1988  called “Little Nikita”  where River Phoenix played a kid who wanted to enter the army or something but when they did a background on him they found his mom and dad had none to speak of.  They were legit sleepers but the real kind not like P&E but the kind who actually kinda became Americans.  

My point being I can see Paige going for that State Department internship and passing the background pretty easy but someone for whatever reason decides to do a enhanced background on her and that’s when the red (ha!) flags go off!!!!  

I've always said this.  Applying for any kind of secret job DOES involve a complete check of parents, friends, teachers, acquaintances, coworkers.  I was one of those coworkers once, and the questions and follow up questions were beyond extensive.

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

 

Living next to and being friends with spies for 6 years should be the last straw.

At least Stan has something decent to do. He hasn’t had much to work with since end of S4. Even if I don’t buy his lightbulb moment. It felt more like- the show is ending so now Stan sees it.

It was always going to be either a lightbulb moment for Stan or others finding out an informing Stan.  I believe in lightbulb moments. They happen.  Suddenly everything starts to come together.  It doesn't throw me that both parents bailing on Thanksgiving is that moment.  At all.

I also don't think it's that bad that he was living next to them for 6+ years.  Will Stan think so?  Oh hell yes.  Will the FBI?  Maybe, it honestly could go either way.  If he busts it wide open personally?  Probably not, but it will eat him up inside.

4 hours ago, jrlr said:

I wasn't particularly bothered by Stan's questions/reactions/search because I think they did a decent job of portraying him as a man who is (okay, maybe not the best spook in the world) but  suddenly very conflicted about P&E - more P than E actually.  Maybe I'm reading into it, but it seemed to me that the possible reality of his neighbors being illegals has been cropping up for him for awhile, and the not-coincidence of the Chicago shoot-out and the Jennings' travels  started pinging around in his mind, enough to question Henry and search the house.  On one hand, he's suspicious, on the other hand these people have been friends of his for years now and IRL when you start to suspect someone you know and care about of something shady, there's a part of your mind that just won't accept it until forced to do so.  And then there's the added probem of Stan being an FBI agent who will probably be disgraced when the truth about P&E is finally revealed.

Paige is once again a badly written and badly acted part.  The only thing that rang true to me was when she said she has no friends, because it seems perfectly logical that spy parents would try to keep their kids somewhat isolated (within a normal school and social framework) so that no one gets too close to the family.  And because Paige is by nature such a whiny, needy and utterly incurious person who just wants to please mom, of course she doesn't have - or even seem to want - a social circle or support system outside the family.  It's a role that could have been really interesting as a forcibly isolated teen/lost soul, but instead, Paige just comes off as a weak, flat character who barely has the makings of a good file clerk.  

I agree with all of this.

I especially agree with your thoughts on Paige.  Writing, directing, and the actress never cut it for me, and it stood out like a giant broken bleeding red thumb in this otherwise stellar group of actors.  She's oblivious, and I think in the hands of a more skilled actress with a more expressive face, voice, and certainly more skills?  It could have been and would have been compelling.   Sorry Holly, better luck in sitcoms or romcoms, drama is not your thing, nor is subtlety. 

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

They would have taken the whole body. Philip was in the process of moving it until he saw the axe.

I loved this episode. I was riveted from beginning to end. The subtext of the conversation between Henry and Stan had me on the edge of my seat. Personally, I think Stan became suspicious now not only because of a slow accumulation of clues but because things are amping up with the summit and with the internal turmoil in the Soviet Union. P&E just don't have the luxury to be as careful about their "missions" so they skip out on Thanksgiving and leave Henry behind when he visits from school, things they probably wouldn't do if they weren't in dire straits. They've always been careful to keep of the appearance of normalcy in the past but they are faltering on that now. Hence, Stan noticing that something is off. 

The extraction a great bit of suspense and action (and too much violence for me) as well. Now both P&E have intel on the sensors which is ironic. If Philip hadn't shown up, Elizabeth may have never gotten that intel but because Philip was there and now has it too, he can now use it to try and stop what she's trying to accomplish.

I liked it too, it was old school.  Also, the FBI obviously had others around Harvest, which is why they used the radio and called in the troops.  This was a discreet investigation, probably in hopes that Harvest would lead them to other players.  A helicopter would have not only given them away, Harvest would have swallowed that pill and they would have had nothing anyway.

3 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

The dying/sick artist. Does she have an actual disease or was she poisoned so spy nurses could be put in the house? Is the artist being used to soften E?

Pancreatic cancer, late stages.

[jjj]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

Why did they chop her up, though? It looked like they just left her laying there. 

The FBI tells you why, when you get to that scene. 

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

P&E probably do have a birth certificate and a whole back history.  I think it was back in season one (Arckady?) made them memorize it.  They almost definitely have the paperwork to back it up.  The forgeries are top notch.  I think dead babies around the same age they are so the birth certificates are technically real.  So there is a real baby name Philip Jennings who died in the early sixties (let’s say) and a baby named Elizabeth (whatever her supposed maiden name is). They use that to get valid drivers licenses and then bank accounts and marriage licenses and businesses licenses.  It’s all so.....logical.   You track back that birth certificate to a dead baby but after two decades that is easier said then done.

Yes, I'm sure they do, but, would they hold up under scrutiny, probably not. Recall how they quickly figured out that Clarke was not real, but, a fake.  Back when they got the scoop on Martha.  I guess they just got lucky. 

Ref. to Paige being charged....unless she confesses or someone squeals on her, then, how would they know that she has conspired with her mom?  What evidence would they have if her parents pretend both children were kept in the dark about their identities. 

[skippylou]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth would have heard it already, I assume. She was listening and seemed concerned that Philip was hearing it too. But yeah, I think he gives it to Oleg.

Maybe, but it was a fairly low volume statement from a weak dying voice in a noisy van and Elizabeth was intent on driving and avoiding capture or getting shot at.  At best, she got a few pieces direct from the horses mouth.

Another thought,  maybe all that stuff Harvest wanted relayed to his parents was really packed with code words and phrases.  Remember he said to Phillip "remember these exact words" several times.  That's not going to be part of your last message to mom and dad when you have seconds to live.  Elizabeth ID-ed herself to Harvest with the phrase "Mother said to come with me".  And all those crazy calls to the Jennings household with messages from the Book-of-the-Month-Club, opera tickets, charities; not all their sensitive communications are with one-time-pads.  Lastly, I believe sharpening memorization skills was a big point in their early KGB training.  

Phillip has a $#!+load of intel even if he doesn't know what most of it means.

One question that I wasn't clear on:  Did Harvest actually take the suicide pill or is that speculation?

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I'm wondering if Stan will go visit the Jennings' travel agency now, and "casually" talk to some employees to try to find out more about Philip and Elizabeth's routines at work.

That could work. He's used the travel agency before so it wouldn't seem out of the ordinary. I like the idea that Stan is just talking to people while Philip is in the office on the phone. 

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Right after Stan moved in they talked about needing to be careful with their comings and goings since he was FBI. Obviously, that’s been difficult to control. But- realistically- who really pays attention to the comings and goings of the neighbors? Not many in my experience. Unless they are FBI agent Stan or Mrs. Cravits(sp? bewitched neighbor). 

Loved the Bewitched reference. Pretty sure its spelled Kravits. Now I'm picturing a version of The Americans with Mrs. Kravits as one of their neighbors. 

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

If all you have is a name,  address, and approximate birthdate, then it's a ton of work in 1987, but even then the sudden appearance of a social security card, as an adult, is kind of suspicious.

It used to be that people did not get a Social Security card until they started working. I don't think Social Security numbers were issued at birth until sometime in the 1970s or the 1980s. For someone of Philip and Elizabeth's generation getting a Social Security number as a teenager or as an adult would have been the norm. 

[jjj]

13 minutes ago, skippylou said:

Another thought,  maybe all that stuff Harvest wanted relayed to his parents was really packed with code words and phrases.  Remember he said to Phillip "remember these exact words" several times.  That's not going to be part of your last message to mom and dad when you have seconds to live.  Elizabeth ID-ed herself to Harvest with the phrase "Mother said to come with me".  And all those crazy calls to the Jennings household with messages from the Book-of-the-Month-Club, opera tickets, charities; not all their sensitive communications are with one-time-pads.  Lastly, I believe sharpening memorization skills was a big point in their early KGB training.  

One question that I wasn't clear on:  Did Harvest actually take the suicide pill or is that speculation?

No, he never said "these exact words"  -- I just went back to make sure.  He said to tel his mother, and asked "will you remember this?" and said "don't forget".  No code words, just two farewells, plus super-secret sensor information. 

Yes, he actually took the pill, and we see him swallowing it, then the camera pans down along with Philip's gaze to the empty necklace.  It is more dramatic this way -- and reminds us that Elizabeth may have to do the same thing, and she knows it. 

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, I'm sure they do, but, would they hold up under scrutiny, probably not. Recall how they quickly figured out that Clarke was not real, but, a fake.  Back when they got the scoop on Martha.  I guess they just got lucky. 

Ref. to Paige being charged....unless she confesses or someone squeals on her, then, how would they know that she has conspired with her mom?  What evidence would they have if her parents pretend both children were kept in the dark about their identities. 

Pastor Tim is definitely getting interviewed, any where on the planet, if he hasn't been whacked. The first conviction on the basis of DNA testing occurred in 1987. If the FBI gets the cars that were used in the operations, there's a decent chance they could get a hair sample to establish Paige as part of the conspiracy. Her fingerprints, of course, are all over Claudia's safehouse.

[SunnyBeBe]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Pastor Tim is definitely getting interviewed, any where on the planet, if he hasn't been whacked. The first conviction on the basis of DNA testing occurred in 1987. If the FBI gets the cars that were used in the operations, there's a decent chance they could get a hair sample to establish Paige as part of the conspiracy. Her fingerprints, of course, are all over Claudia's safehouse.

Yeah, but, was she a minor when she was around Pastor Tim?  Hmm....it might show knowledge, but, actual involvement....? Plus, Priest/Penitent confidentiality...although, I don't suppose the FBI cares about that.  Still, Past Tim might hold it secret for that reason.  And, who's to say that Page didn't really think that little old Claudia was just a family friend.  And, if no one talks, they may not even discover Claudia.  In case you can't tell, I'm building Paige's defense! lol  And, I'm not even a fan. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[jjj]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Pastor Tim is definitely getting interviewed, any where on the planet, if he hasn't been whacked. The first conviction on the basis of DNA testing occurred in 1987. If the FBI gets the cars that were used in the operations, there's a decent chance they could get a hair sample to establish Paige as part of the conspiracy. Her fingerprints, of course, are all over Claudia's safehouse.

Heh, every now and then, I think, they *say* Pastor Tim and family have gone to the world council, but is this like "your puppy is playing on a farm upstate, unfortunately can have no visitors"? 

Claudia was not in a safehouse, but her own apartment, like Gabriel.  I have no idea what her cover story is.  But a safehouse is a place to stash kidnapped or rescued people, like Martha -- she was in a safehouse.  Those are the places that Aderholt said were being paid for months in advance -- they are mostly empty. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

It really is the only decent way to write the end of Paige's story at this point. If they write yet another successful exfiltration back to the Soviet Union, past a bumbling FBI, this time with Paige, my eyes might roll back so hard that the rotation of the earth may be affected.

If they let Paige stay and go on to be a future spy for the USSR or Russia I will be so angry at the ending.

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Maybe Stan will go talk to Paige next. It will be a good test of Paige's training. Can she act normal when being questioned? Or normal enough to fool Stan? Stan doesn't know Paige as well as he knows Henry so she might be able to fool him. But she's such a nervous, anxious creature that I find it hard to imagine her fooling anyone when something she really cares about is at risk. Plus, she certainly can't beat Stan up.  

I think that would be idiotic.  It could tip off her parents, and Stan has never had that kind of relationship with Paige.  IF, as he suspects, Elizabeth was not caring for her aunt and indeed was recovering from wounds in the hail of bullets that hit that car?  Paige could be involved, since she "met" Aunt Helen.  I certainly hope that Stan knows better than to (very strangely!) suddenly bring up Aunt Helen to Paige.

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I'd like to see a Stan/Paige conversation now that Stan is suspicious. It really would be a test of everything Paige has been taught.

I'd like to see him interrogate her after her parents are dead or arrested.  She would crumble like stale biscotti.  I don't want to see him "have a conversation with Paige" because that would put the nail in the coffin of Stan being an idiot.  I've never thought Stan was an idiot, so it would piss me off.

3 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Just caught this over at Reddit. I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember it exactly but I feel the same.

I like how the P&E killing in this show doesn't seem "badass" or "cool".  It always seems degrading to the victims and P& E.

The show does indeed make killing realistic and devastating, I have always loved that they don't ever make it "cool."

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

We can say for sure that Paige hasn't noticed anything in the paper about those warehouse murders, or read anything speculating that the General didn't kill himself. That public shootout in Chicago probably went by the wayside too. 

She gets all her news from Claudia and Elizabeth.

More TERRIBLE writing.  If they wanted Paige to wear and "idiot" sign on her forehead and a "kick me I'm stupid" sign on her back they couldn't have done it better.  She doesn't READ newspapers?  She wasn't curious about the sailor?  That's why I keep saying it's not all Holly Taylor's fault. 

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Anyone born within the borders of the United States is a citizen of the United States. The actions of the parents are not relevant. Paige and Henry are genuine citizens of the United States.

Well, that's being debated and a new judge is ruling right now in the case of the Canadian citizens kids of the spies arrested here.  I don't know if the USA has such similar laws on the books, but ...  Paige wouldn't stand up to real FBI questioning, at all, not a chance in hell.  So yes, she could be convicted of treason, or shot, or somehow ex filtrated and sent to Moscow.  All of those work in some ways.  Going on to spy would be bullshit, getting any kind of government or secret job would be bullshit.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see how she's getting more real. Paige had already been told that people die, since Paige said that Elizabeth told her that this rarely happens and Elizabeth, iirc, said that it didn't. So still not sharing with her that pretty much every person they've ever worked with since 1981 is dead by now.

Elizabeth began by telling her NO, WE NEVER KILL PEOPLE, of course not!  Now she's finally moved to "sometimes it happens, it's a dangerous job."  She's never been honest with her at all under now.  I think she's finally realizing that Philip was right all along.  There is not sure-thing totally safe 9-5 office job for Paige.  There was never going to be.  That's why she's finally trying to talk her out of it. 

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

P&E probably do have a birth certificate and a whole back history.  I think it was back in season one (Arckady?) made them memorize it.  They almost definitely have the paperwork to back it up.  The forgeries are top notch.  I think dead babies around the same age they are so the birth certificates are technically real.  So there is a real baby name Philip Jennings who died in the early sixties (let’s say) and a baby named Elizabeth (whatever her supposed maiden name is). They use that to get valid drivers licenses and then bank accounts and marriage licenses and businesses licenses.  It’s all so.....logical.   You track back that birth certificate to a dead baby but after two decades that is easier said then done.

They just do what they did with William.  Walk graves.  BUT?  Now computers are available, it should be much faster.  (already answered, but I can't remove quotes)

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He knew he was under surveillance. They could have told him to take the pill and gotten the same result in the end, is my point, even if I understand why they tried to get him out. In the end he wound up taking the pill.

A lucky bullet got him.  They might have saved him, that was the whole point, trying to, in spite of the terrible odds.  A great shot got Marilyn, but the FBI guys could see her.

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

He probably took it because there's no way P&E can take him to a hospital. They can't stay with him to ensure he's dead before the FBI gets them. Yes they could put him down but I'm guessing Harvest wanted to just go out instead of putting that burden on P&E.

An untreated gut shot like that is also a painful death.  He might have made it if they got him to an emergency room, but they couldn't do that.  He gave the spy information and then left messages for his parents, before quickly and relatively painlessly ending his life. 

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

If Paige takes Henry back to school, the in the car conversation between Henry and Stan never happens.

Stan's next move is pretty obvious.  He has to talk to Paige.  Paige is a walking disaster.  That won't go well.  Would Paige be prepared to kill Stan?  She may not have a choice.  She does not have a poker face.  Stan would never see it coming if he was attacked by Paige.  Of course, Paige would have no way to get rid of Stan's body.

It took three or four wacks with an axe to take off Marilyn's head.  Philip would never survive in a ZA.  Philip not only looks horribly sad, he also looks physically weak. 

I answered above.  Under no circumstances should Stan suddenly have a chat with Paige, she doesn't even live across the street anymore.  It would be an idiotic move and dead giveaway that Stan suspects her parents.

1 hour ago, Anela said:

Why did they chop her up, though? It looked like they just left her laying there. 

Easier.  No teeth, no facial recognition, no fingerprints and they didn't have to lug an entire body.  To someone else, no, Elizabeth was not horrified when she saw Philip see the axe.  She knew immediately what he would do, and jumped out to help him.  She was concerned for Philip, that's all.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I would like to crawl in Paige's head and find out what is going on there. 

 

It's easy.  It's all anime with Paige in super cute spy clothes taking down the bad guys, efficiently and while looking amazingly cute.  She's the heroine, and ugly, stupid, clueless dweebs watch her in awe, while she single handedly saves the world.  Sometimes her cool mother applauds from the side lines, so proud and impressed she is.

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

There was a lot of graphic shit in this episode that they did show.  I don't know why they didn't show Harvest taking the pill out and putting it in his mouth.

We weren't supposed to see him take it, neither was Philip.  For Philip it was a reminder of just how quickly Elizabeth could be dead, he didn't even see it happen.

[Moose135]

13 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

It used to be that people did not get a Social Security card until they started working. I don't think Social Security numbers were issued at birth until sometime in the 1970s or the 1980s. For someone of Philip and Elizabeth's generation getting a Social Security number as a teenager or as an adult would have been the norm. 

I got my Social Security number in the mid-70s around the age of 14 or 16.  Back then, it was used to report earnings for Social Security purposes, it wasn't the all-encompassing identification number that it has evolved into.

 

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

Heh, every now and then, I think, they *say* Pastor Tim and family have gone to the world council, but is this like "your puppy is playing on a farm upstate, unfortunately can have no visitors"?

 

I love that!

Edited May 10, 2018 by Moose135

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

Heh, every now and then, I think, they *say* Pastor Tim and family have gone to the world council, but is this like "your puppy is playing on a farm upstate, unfortunately can have no visitors"? 

Claudia was not in a safehouse, but her own apartment, like Gabriel.  I have no idea what her cover story is.  But a safehouse is a place to stash kidnapped or rescued people, like Martha -- she was in a safehouse.  Those are the places that Aderholt said were being paid for months in advance -- they are mostly empty. 

I don't think Claudia "lives" anywhere.  She has a series of safe house, just like Gabe.  That's the one she always meets Paige in though.  She doesn't need, and it would be stupid to have, a permanent residence.  She's not embedded, she's a handler, and at any moment one of the spies she handles could be caught, or followed, or broken.  Paige is a junior spy with almost no skills.  She would and/or could give away Claudia in a heartbeat.  There is no chance IMO that Claudia hangs around that place unless Paige is coming over.  It would be absolutely unforgivably stupid spy craft.

2 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

I got my Social Security number in the mid-70s around the age of 14 or 16.  Back then, it was used to report earnings for Social Security purposes, it wasn't the all-encompassing identification number that it has evolved into.

Yes, I've wondered about that too.  I got mine when I was in junior high, the whole class went.  I stupidly used my nickname on the application, and it followed me until I finally went to the trouble of correcting it last year.  Ginger.  (!)

I googled, but no way am I reading all the Social Security rules or when they began, changed, etc. 

I did find this:

Quote

 

https://money.usnews.com/money/.../why-we-assign-social-security-numbers-at-birth

May 6, 2011 - The Social Security Administration developed an enumeration-at-birth process in 1987, which quickly became the way the majority of people apply for Social Security numbers. Now parents indicate on the birth certificate form whether they want a Social Security number assigned to their newborn child.

 

I suppose with a birth certificate you could get a social security number much easier back in the sixties, but who knows if that was common with young adults (which Elizabeth and Philip were when they arrived.)  Possibly the KGB simply arranged all of that for them before they got there, had other kids stand in for the fake names, or fake parents with very well done documentation go in to get them for their kids.

[jjj]

Gabriel definitely had his own apartment.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Claudia "lives" anywhere.  She has a series of safe house, just like Gabe. 

Even in 1987, it would not take long for the FBI to find out that Philip has a birth certificate from a baby/child who had died young, once they had a copy of the birth certificate he used for his passport.  This is not a needle in a haystack -- it is a date and place and name that is in the Vital Statistics databank. 

[anonymiss]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I would like to crawl in Paige's head and find out what is going on there.  

Paige communicates with people fairly well, so I call bullshit on her inability to make friends.  That is, unless she views friendship as individuals being in total agreement on her belief system. 

She seems like an empty vessel. She hasn't been developed as a believable human being, let alone aspiring spy. She exists only as a convenient plot device who somehow escaped all the influences of American life and popular culture. She doesn't have any hobbies or interests (except a convenient desire springing out of nowhere at a wee age to dedicate her life to making a difference) and only has superficial critical thinking, replete with a default deer-in-headlights expression. 

Paige is a pretty and seemingly normal white girl. She wouldn't have to "put her mind" into forming friendships. If they wanted to be less lazy they could have developed that Paige has extreme shyness or some impediment that makes her get bullied like a speech impediment (she already has poorly affected delayed speech), or was the target of mean girl bullying for being a mega-nerd and now is traumatized. But she is a pretty and "normal" girl who has never been abused or mistreated and was given the things she needed to fit in (as was Henry). Paige is just too well adjusted for any of this to be believable.

Edited May 10, 2018 by anonymiss

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

  Quote

https://money.usnews.com/money/.../why-we-assign-social-security-numbers-at-birth

May 6, 2011 - The Social Security Administration developed an enumeration-at-birth process in 1987, which quickly became the way the majority of people apply for Social Security numbers. Now parents indicate on the birth certificate form whether they want a Social Security number assigned to their newborn child.

My brothers and I were born in the early 1960s, and our parents had to apply for cards for us. I never needed it until I got my first real job as a teenager, but already having it made things easier when filling out the paperwork.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, jjj said:

Gabriel definitely had his own apartment.

Even in 1987, it would not take long for the FBI to find out that Philip has a birth certificate from a baby/child who had died young, once they had a copy of the birth certificate he used for his passport.  This is not a needle in a haystack -- it is a date and place and name that is in the Vital Statistics databank. 

Gabe had several places that doubled as safe houses.  My point is, neither Gabe nor Granny needed a permanent residence.  At all.  It would be stupid.  They aren't creating lives in the USA like the Jennings, they don't have jobs, or covers, or neighborhood friends.  They handle spies, in several cities.  They are mobile.  Rent is payed on dozens of places.  They wouldn't meet everyone they handle in the same place, it would be sloppy and stupid.

Granny certainly wouldn't actually LIVE in a place that Paige visits, it would be phenomenally stupid and terrible trade craft, Paige could get caught and/or flip at any moment.  The KGB isn't stupid.  We saw this with Gabe, during the bioweapons stories, he easily could move around.  Some of those safe houses were also available to Philip and Elizabeth or other spies Gabe and Granny handled should they need them. 

I know.  They did it will William, remember?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Umbelina

[Glade]

1 hour ago, zibnchy said:

The reason Paige doesn't have any friends likely has to do with the fact that she was raised by Soviet spies (and cold blooded killers). You think Elizabeth was busy planning play dates for Paige? Seems like E&P were hardly ever home (esp at night) and they likely expected her to grow up faster to help with her little brother. E&P didn't mirror positive behaviors for her to emulate, other than sneaking around and lying.

 

Yes, having parents with no friends (except Stan) or family relationships and who were always absent, always lying to you, sometimes turning on charm and other times cutting you down brutally would be very isolating.  Not to mention when they told her the half-truth and started recruiting her, telling her who she couldn't date and that she had to spend years cultivating a priest as a source...yeah, it's easy to see why she has no friends her own age, she is being set up by Elizabeth to likely never have genuine relationships with anyone, to either be handled by or handle other people.   Henry had a different personality, and was able to get lost in his interests in math, computers, and video games for long periods of time as a way to cope with the void left by his parent's absence.  Unlike Paige, he wasn't curious about why they were gone or what they were doing, he just stopped caring and left as soon as he could.  There's so much hate directed at the Jennings children on this forum, but I think they're great people with shit parents who used them as a cover and in the case of Elizabeth towards Paige, is verbally abusive, lying and manipulating her daughter into risking her life for something she doesn't understand.

[JennyMominFL]

6 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

My brothers and I were born in the early 1960s, and our parents had to apply for cards for us. I never needed it until I got my first real job as a teenager, but already having it made things easier when filling out the paperwork.

I didn't get one for my youngest son until he was 10.....in 2005

[Helena Dax]

I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, but those two long scenes without a word were amazing. First, in the garage. Everything Philip and Elizabeth need to say is said with their eyes, with their faces. Then, Stan exploring the Jennings' house. I could barely breath. I was sure he was going to find something, I don't know.

Anyway, he's closer to find out the truth. I think some part of his mind has never forgotten anything about the illegals, Martha etc. He's been storing little tibdits of information and sooner or later everything is going to make sense.  And boy, is he going to feel like a fool.

God, only three episodes. This is going to be a torture. You know the worst part? Eveybody's going to feel like shit. Let's say Stan arrest the Jennings: even then, he'll feel dumb and bertrayed by Philip. Philip and Elizabeth may die or lose their dumb daughter but in the best case, they'll have soon to face the fact that they've been murdering and sacrificing their lives for nothing: the USSR is no more. I knew this show was going to break my heart.

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I'm sure I'm not the first to say it, but those two long scenes without a word were amazing. First, in the garage. Everything Philip and Elizabeth need to say is said with their eyes, with their faces. Then, Stan exploring the Jennings' house. I could barely breath. I was sure he was going to find something, I don't know.

I knew Stan would not die with three episodes to go (and hopefully not even then), but if this had been the final episode, I would not have been at all surprised to have him encounter Renee when he got back upstairs, and for her to shoot him without a word.  Nope, I cannot let go that I think she is up to something that will not help Stan!  (Unless she is being set up to be Henry's foster mother at the end, her being too old for kids, as Stan charmingly pointed out last week.) 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I would like to crawl in Paige's head and find out what is going on there. 

Empty room. Ugly wallpaper. Big poster of Elizabeth on one wall, little picture of Claudia in a frame.

1 hour ago, JBravoEcho09 said:

And even when she did have friends (Matthew), she ended up pushing them away when things got too complicated. Also like her mother.

And seemed to me to prefer to use them. I think she likes the idea of spying because it turns a relationship into something where Paige is in control. It's always been part of her character, imo, that she was insecure and overwhelmed. What Elizabeth called "fragile." I think she always wanted a buffer between her and the world. She's a joiner because that gives her confidence. Unfortunately she's now joined people who are totally isolating.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

We don't know why Henry had to get off the phone quickly.  Maybe he had explosive diarrhea from Renee's stuffing. Maybe he was in the middle of a study group or card game with the guys.  Maybe he was finally trying to finish that paper on Walden Pond.  Maybe he was annoyed that he made the effort to go home, instead of accepting another invitation, and didn't see his family at all.  Hell, even Paige left. 

Yes, it's quite possible that the point of that phone call wasn't that Henry was angry or punishing Philip all those hours later but just that he was back at school and doing his own stuff. It's just a small tragedy when two people aren't on the same page at the same time. When Philip saw Henry before he left Henry was more interested in the TV. Now he's back at school and talking to other people. He has no idea that his father thought he was never going to see him again. 

His father did take off work to spend the day with him when he got home, though, and I think that's why Henry doesn't really feel right about condemning him. He sees that his father is struggling and making the effort. It's his mother he sees as isolating herself. But as he said, as far as he can see his parents have a great life besides his father's business troubles that he obviously feels bad about because they affect Henry. If he hadn't left Henry's mother would have died so in the end Henry's weekend was probably better this way.

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

There was a lot of graphic shit in this episode that they did show.  I don't know why they didn't show Harvest taking the pill out and putting it in his mouth.

I think because they wanted us to experience it like Philip. Philip didn't see him do it so didn't have to react to him doing it, try to stop him, let him go etc. 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. to Paige being charged....unless she confesses or someone squeals on her, then, how would they know that she has conspired with her mom?  What evidence would they have if her parents pretend both children were kept in the dark about their identities. 

Well, in this ep Henry said he thought Paige had met the aunt. But even besides that Stan noticed something "not right in Paigeland" years ago. Paige still lives close to home at 19 (Henry left at 14). She's with her parents a lot. She's older. No reason to think that just because Henry doesn't know Paige doesn't know. She was also friends with that Pastor who got arrested for hippie stuff. If Stan starts asking around her college he might hear about her little display at the bar as well.

1 hour ago, skippylou said:

Another thought,  maybe all that stuff Harvest wanted relayed to his parents was really packed with code words and phrases.  Remember he said to Phillip "remember these exact words" several times.  That's not going to be part of your last message to mom and dad when you have seconds to live. 

No, I don't think there's any way that message was supposed to be a code. Philip said he wouldn't forget a word but that didn't mean the words were a code. He gave the important business material in English flat-out. The stuff in Russian was more important to him because it wasn't the business. As everyone keeps trying to tell Elizabeth, in the end it's *not* the work that's always most important. He didn't die worried about the schematics, he died thinking about how he'd made his mother sad and worried about her grieving him.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

If they let Paige stay and go on to be a future spy for the USSR or Russia I will be so angry at the ending.

God, me too. The machinations they'd have to go through to try to act like she was any kind of a threat are just ridiculous. She's known to be the child of Illegals. Her own life is pretty suspicious and close to her mother. Plus she's terrible at this stuff and without her mother there's really no reason to do it.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

More TERRIBLE writing.  If they wanted Paige to wear and "idiot" sign on her forehead and a "kick me I'm stupid" sign on her back they couldn't have done it better.  She doesn't READ newspapers?  She wasn't curious about the sailor?  That's why I keep saying it's not all Holly Taylor's fault. 

I guess it's possible that *some* actress could have found some odd take on Paige's willful ignorance, but she is definitely being written as willfully ignorant. If Paige, having become a traitor for the USSR because she's decided it's her spiritual homeland and the best country on earth, is written as not knowing what war Claudia is referring to when she says the "Great Patriotic War" it would be hard for anybody to make her seem not willfully ignorant, full stop.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

A lucky bullet got him.  They might have saved him, that was the whole point, trying to, in spite of the terrible odds.  A great shot got Marilyn, but the FBI guys could see her.

Oh, I know. They almost got him out. It's just that in the end things went so wrong he wound up even killing himself. So they feel that much more helpless. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I answered above.  Under no circumstances should Stan suddenly have a chat with Paige, she doesn't even live across the street anymore.  It would be an idiotic move and dead giveaway that Stan suspects her parents.

Totally right. He might be able to say something to her if she's at his house with her parents, the type of thing that Paige wouldn't notice because Paige is very bad at this and Stan is a professional. Asking her about her parents or Aunt Helen would be a giveaway, but he might have some little thing he could ask that seemed innocuous.

I don't know how applying for internships work--I guess she'd want one for the summer or something? But if Stan is suspicious he would definitely wonder about that, I'd think, even know that Paige is a loudmouth about politics. He might offer to a write a letter of recommendation and use that. It would be pretty great to watch Stan ask Paige questions that she can't see as traps because she doesn't know the details he's working from.

In the recap the reviewer said Stan wasn't "giving Philip a hard time" when he was asking him what was wrong but Philip was right--he was. He was concerned, but also suspicious.

34 minutes ago, Glade said:

Yes, having parents with no friends (except Stan) or family relationships and who were always absent, always lying to you, sometimes turning on charm and other times cutting you down brutally would be very isolating. 

Paige did not have some terrible childhood where her parents were never there. In season 1 she thought she had normal parents and only started to realize that they kept strange hours. All parents are sometimes nice and sometimes harsh when they're disciplining their kids. Certainly Paige was screwed up once the secret was revealed and she's been manipulated since, but her lack of interest in kids her age pre-dated that and obviously didn't keep Henry from having friends ever. Henry is interested in other people and shares interests with other people. Paige likes authority figures, just like her mother, who also had a mother who was probably sometimes nice and sometimes harsh. 

Just saying that yes, the story obviously has shown the destruction that these lies have had on the family, but it's not the story of an abusive environment that stunted the kids development otherwise. Stan is a perfectly well meaning guy who also hurt his kid a lot. Elizabeth's mother was hurtful too. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

56 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, but, was she a minor when she was around Pastor Tim?  Hmm....it might show knowledge, but, actual involvement....? Plus, Priest/Penitent confidentiality...although, I don't suppose the FBI cares about that.  Still, Past Tim might hold it secret for that reason.  And, who's to say that Page didn't really think that little old Claudia was just a family friend.  And, if no one talks, they may not even discover Claudia.  In case you can't tell, I'm building Paige's defense! lol  And, I'm not even a fan. 

Obtaining the cars would be a critical step, especially since Marilyn's dna will be there as well.

[meira.hand]

18 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Hey, it could've been worse, they could've stuffed 'em into a suitcase.

I still consider that scene the the worst of this series. The sound of the bones breaking was the worst. It really stayed with me thru out a very violent series.

[Umbelina]

Honestly, all they need is Philip's fingerprints.

That's it.

Considering the way Stan and Philip share beers?  Not an issue.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, in the years that would follow, DNA would nail P & E for sure. It might take years for them to get much on Paige, unless they found videos, prints, etc., , but, I'd defend Paige. lol  She's got some reasonable defenses.  The biggest issue would be her keeping her mouth shut.  You know the saying.....People have the right to remain silent, but, often not the ability." lol  I can see Paige now...singing like a canary and too dense to even realize it. 

[jjj]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Obtaining the cars would be a critical step, especially since Marilyn's dna will be there as well.

A. They didn't have anything to match Marilyn's DNA to (not even clear the fingerprints would have been helpful, but someone would have recognized her face eventually).

B. DNA evidence was very new in 1987, not regularly used. 

[Bannon]

47 minutes ago, jjj said:

Gabriel definitely had his own apartment.

Even in 1987, it would not take long for the FBI to find out that Philip has a birth certificate from a baby/child who had died young, once they had a copy of the birth certificate he used for his passport.  This is not a needle in a haystack -- it is a date and place and name that is in the Vital Statistics databank. 

It's kind of a hole, truthfully. It would be normally better for an illegal to never apply for a passport, unless it is anticipated that they would have to travel overseas under their illegals identity. Phil and Liz really shouldn't be running a travel agency. Funny that never occurred to me.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, all they need is Philip's fingerprints.

Considering the way Stan and Philip share beers?  Not an issue.

Truly, if Stan is a suspicious FBI agent, you would expect the first thing he would do is to run a fingerprint check, and then he totally would have Philip.

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, all they need is Philip's fingerprints.

That's it.

Considering the way Stan and Philip share beers?  Not an issue.

It's possible, although not easy, to go through life without ever getting your fingerprints on file.

[hellmouse]

Just now, Bannon said:

It's kind of a hole, truthfully. It would be normally better for an illegal to never apply for a passport, unless it is anticipated that they would have to travel overseas under their illegals identity. Phil and Liz really shouldn't be running a travel agency. Funny that never occurred to me.

Elizabeth has a passport too. She went to West Germany with Paige. Gabriel thought she could have been caught at the time. I wonder if they can search old travel records. It would have been about five years ago in show time. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

It's kind of a hole, truthfully. It would be normally better for an illegal to never apply for a passport, unless it is anticipated that they would have to travel overseas under their illegals identity. Phil and Liz really shouldn't be running a travel agency. Funny that never occurred to me.

Just like the CIA, I'm pretty sure passports would be relatively easy to obtain.  Simple B & E or plants at the Post Office or other areas for processing.

Just now, Bannon said:

It's possible, although not easy, to go through life without ever getting your fingerprints on file.

The have Clark's prints from the apartment Martha went to, the one Philip pretended was Clark's.

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It's possible, although not easy, to go through life without ever getting your fingerprints on file.

They have "Clark's" fingerprints, or at least one of them.  Bingo.

Of course, Philip does not know they have "Clark's" fingerprint(s), but he should have been shipped home with Martha.  And probably Elizabeth.  The powers that be must have realized there was no way he could have shared all that space with her, plus the second apartment, and never left a print.

Edited May 10, 2018 by jjj

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

A. They didn't have anything to match Marilyn's DNA to (not even clear the fingerprints would have been helpful, but someone would have recognized her face eventually).

B. DNA evidence was very new in 1987, not regularly used. 

They have her torso, which will be matched to all the DNA in the cars, if the cars are recovered. Anybody else's DNA can be strongly established, along with circumstantial evidence, as part of the conspiracy.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It's kind of a hole, truthfully. It would be normally better for an illegal to never apply for a passport, unless it is anticipated that they would have to travel overseas under their illegals identity. Phil and Liz really shouldn't be running a travel agency. Funny that never occurred to me.

Someone once mentioned that Travel Agencies were common jobs for spies. They ought to have been traveling a lot in their job, acting as couriers. We didn't see them traveling but there's at least one time where Elizabeth's having a meeting in Italy. 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The have Clark's prints from the apartment Martha went to, the one Philip pretended was Clark's.

I think they just said they had a partial, so I don't now how perfect it would be? I don't know how fingerprints work in that much detail!

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Elizabeth has a passport too. She went to West Germany with Paige. Gabriel thought she could have been caught at the time. I wonder if they can search old travel records. It would have been about five years ago in show time. 

Sure they can, although Elizabeth should have used a different passport for that trip, along with a different one for Paige.

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

They have "Clark's" fingerprints, or at least one of them.  Bingo.

Forgot about that.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Someone once mentioned that Travel Agencies were common jobs for spies. They ought to have been traveling a lot in their job, acting as couriers. We didn't see them traveling but there's at least one time where Elizabeth's having a meeting in Italy. 

I think they just said they had a partial, so I don't now how perfect it would be? I don't know how fingerprints work in that much detail!

No, I'll have to check to be positive, but I'm pretty sure they got one "clean" print from one finger.  Philip wiped down, but he missed one.

I remember at the time thinking, "that will be the ballgame someday."

Edited May 10, 2018 by Umbelina

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

They have her torso, which will be matched to all the DNA in the cars, if the cars are recovered. Anybody else's DNA can be strongly established, along with circumstantial evidence, as part of the conspiracy.

Okay, but I did not think there was much suspense about whether the headless body had been in the cars. (!)

[Bannon]

The FBI, of course, was on the cutting edge in using DNA in 1987. I think this case would be a priority

[jjj]

Just now, Bannon said:

The FBI, of course, was on the cutting edge in using DNA in 1987. I think this case would be a priority

I'm just saying, Marilyn would not have had matching DNA on file to match, because they were not processing DNA before then.  Yes, they could match her to the cars, but they did not need DNA to do that.  But nothing to match her to her job or location back home in D.C.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

Okay, but I did not think there was much suspense about whether the headless body had been in the cars. (!)

Yes, but the cars back in D.C.  if recovered will link the headless torso to Paige, and anybody else who left their hair in the cars.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yes, but the cars back in D.C.  if recovered will link the headless torso to Paige, and anybody else who left their hair in the cars.

They don't have any cars to search in D.C. -- no way to know Marilyn was there.  (What cars?)

On the other hand (trying to help here!), did Marilyn did have a hotel room to which she will never return?  The bag they tossed, must have had some of Marilyn's items in it?  Maybe they checked out of the hotel before the caper, which actually would make sense.  Elizabeth and Philip did have their changes of clothing with them. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by jjj

[Bannon]

To be clear, 

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

They don't have any cars to search in D.C. -- no way to know Marilyn was there.  (What cars?)

All the cars they have been using in D.C. for years, on operations. Marilyn's DNA is in those cars, too, along with Paige, Liz, and Phil. It will all get matched/linked to the headless torso.

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

They don't have any cars to search in D.C. -- no way to know Marilyn was there.  (What cars?)

The FBI is now engaged in a massive search for cars that match the illegals pattern of registering car titles

[jjj]

Just now, Bannon said:

To be clear, 

All the cars they have been using in D.C. for years, on operations. Marilyn's DNA is in those cars, too, along with Paige, Liz, and Phil. It will all get matched/linked to the headless torso.

Okay, but they did not know Marilyn was from D.C.   

[TVbitch]

Damn, so Phillip pretty much died in this episode. He made the decision to sacrifice whatever was left of himself for Liz. And she ...well she did drop by to see how he was doing and put her hand on his face, so, totally worth it. :) I think no way Phillip comes out of this alive, but Liz does and her punishment is having to live with being the cause of Phillip's death just as she is coming to her own self-realizations via the artist lady. 

Hopefully Paige will die too :) and Stan will become Henry's surrogate father, which he already is anyway. 

[Chaos Theory]

I have got to stop reading the anti-Paige stuff.  It ruins the show for me.  Its no ones fault that you don't like Paige and I do.   But reading peoples post and how much people hate Paige comes close to making me avoid wanting to post on groups.  I keep coming back because I have things to say but.....I love the character and I just don't get the hate.  And I am close to being offended by the hatred.  But that is on me and the show is almost over so whenever I start reading someones post that starts dissing on Paige I stop reading it.    But I would love to see her go on to be spy for Russia.   I am not sure that is the way the story would unfold.  It is just as likely that her signing up for the State Department is the irony that gets her family found out.  But I would honestly love to see that part of the plan actually work.  Her parents disappear into the darkness and Paige go on to spy for Russia.  That would be the ultimate ending for me.  

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

It used to be that people did not get a Social Security card until they started working. I don't think Social Security numbers were issued at birth until sometime in the 1970s or the 1980s. For someone of Philip and Elizabeth's generation getting a Social Security number as a teenager or as an adult would have been the norm. 

I got mine when I started summer work in high school in the early-mid '60s. My college ID number was my social security number, so everyone at the university had to have one. My 80's-born kids have had their SSN's all their lives. 

[CaliCheeseSucks]

37 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, in the years that would follow, DNA would nail P & E for sure. It might take years for them to get much on Paige, unless they found videos, prints, etc., , but, I'd defend Paige. lol  She's got some reasonable defenses.  The biggest issue would be her keeping her mouth shut.  You know the saying.....People have the right to remain silent, but, often not the ability." lol  I can see Paige now...singing like a canary and too dense to even realize it. 

I'm laughing at the very thought. 

"Paige, we have some questions for you..."

"Listen Mr. Beeman, I know WAY more about the world than you do! Your speech at Thanksgiving made me sick. You don't care about the USSR. I've watched movies and eaten peasant stew. I know things!"

[Anela]

13 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I have got to stop reading the anti-Paige stuff.  It ruins the show for me.  Its no ones fault that you don't like Paige and I do.   But reading peoples post and how much people hate Paige comes close to making me avoid wanting to post on groups.  I keep coming back because I have things to say but.....I love the character and I just don't get the hate.  And I am close to being offended by the hatred.  But that is on me and the show is almost over so whenever I start reading someones post that starts dissing on Paige I stop reading it.    But I would love to see her go on to be spy for Russia.   I am not sure that is the way the story would unfold.  It is just as likely that her signing up for the State Department is the irony that gets her family found out.  But I would honestly love to see that part of the plan actually work.  Her parents disappear into the darkness and Paige go on to spy for Russia.  That would be the ultimate ending for me.  

I don't hate her, I hardly ever comment about her, and defended her before. I just don't buy that however much they want to protect their kids, that they'd let Paige be THAT naive about this kind of work. Elizabeth already told Henry that he didn't need to be shielded anymore, but for some reason, she keeps doing it with Paige. I guess it's because they don't want her to know that they're murderers.