S13.E19: Funeralia

[trudysmom]

• The more I think about it, the more it feels like the series is winding down.  Naomi's "Everything ends" to Cas felt like foreshadowing.  With all the resurrections this season, bring back old some fan favorites (Bobby, Charlie, Rowena) is like a farewell tour of sorts.  They seem to want to tie it all up  Sam and Dean, the AU world, Heaven failing and sending all kinds of ghosts to earth.  Why?  So the Wayward Sisters will have plenty to keep them busy?  I don't know what I want exactly, they've made such a mess of this season, but it's not this mish mash of storylines and re-writing history. 

[Jeddah]

51 minutes ago, SueB said:

Based on Crowley's date of birth (1661), I put her someone between 375 and 380.  Depending on how old she was when she had her affair with the wealthy man and got pregnant.

As Ruth Connell is 39, I'd say Rowena stopped aging in her late 30's.  And Sam is 35 in a couple of weeks.  So, she gives new definition to the meaning of "cougar" or she's just a wee bit older.  

If you count Sam’s time in hell that brings the age gap down to only a little over two centuries! That’s nothing!

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

If you count Sam’s time in hell that brings the age gap down to only a little over two centuries! That’s nothing!

Wasnt Ruby much older than  Sam too?

[SueB]

29 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

If you count Sam’s time in hell that brings the age gap down to only a little over two centuries! That’s nothing!

 

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wasnt Ruby much older than  Sam too?

So older, evil or evil-seeking-redemption women.  And short.  Ruby 2 was smallish -- not as wee as Rowena but smallish.  Man, Jess is looking more and more like an anomaly.  

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I think they leverages Amanda Tappings’ presence to simply add to Cas’ torture.  Dumah is only a bitty step above stint angel #3.  Naomi played Cas’ big bad all of S8.  

With her presence we are reminded that she justified her mind control as penance for all the angels he killed as Godstiel.  Of all the angel characters, she’s always remorselessly provided a listing of his crimes and the angel deaths at his feet.  Dumah doesn’t have the same screen history.  

I think we’ve seen Naomi’s redemption arc.  She  had her moment of mission clarity in the season 8 finale and that’s as far as she’s going to go. She doesn’t regret torturing Cas. But she’s willing to work with him to save Heaven. 

We, the audience, are more sympathetic towards Cas, but she reminds us that Cas is just as harsh on himself as Naomi is to him.   It’s a shortcut to character motivation.  

Misha did an excellent job of looking devastated.  I’m not sure that his reaction would have been as powerful without Naomi.  

Oh I think Naomi pretty much spelled out how I'd they are in terms of AU Michael's attack which adds fuel to any fire beneath Dean's impending wings.   They are getting pretty damn close to a hail Mary/Dean pulling a patented  reckless self sacrifice move to garner a win

23 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think the lesson was about the natural order.  But, Dean still learned about how one thing could effect someone else.  But, yeah, I think the butterfly effect was emphasized more in My Heart Will Go On. 

That was my recollection.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

Finished my rewatch.  Additional bits picked up/responses to discussion (jump to what interests you, it's a bit rambly):

Kitchen scene: Dean asks Cas if he wants a beer.  Cas says no. Dean gets him a beer anyway. WHY is that so adorable? It's just so... familiar.  I have relationships like that. It's nice to see those things portrayed on tv.  Nice touch.  And I like that they are touching on the last conflict they had regarding Donatello.  Dean was fussy about that and Cas is sticking to his guns.  But this is what you do with people that are an essential part of your life.  You WORK for the relationship and don't fester (at least not for long).  I feel like Sam and Dean have really nailed down their relationship. Don't always agree, but they don't let things fester.  So I'm glad to see that this is being applied to Cas as well.

Heaven's situation: I appreciated the shell-shocked faces & depressed angel.  I don't know if they are all 'tired' or what, but all the righteousness has gone out of their sails. They can't even get mad at Castiel anymore.  I also liked Cas' awkward exposition in the face of those blank stares.  I also liked the bored Cas sequence as he waited in Naomi's old office.   Misha did some excellent non-verbal comedy.
Naomi: Hissssssssss.  She's not remotely penitent about hurting Cas in the past.  I believe she's absolutely on the level regarding the plight of the Angels. At this stage she's willing to work with him because she's always been about duty. But in S8 she forgot what that duty was (protecting humans) and now she's crystal clear (take care of the human souls in heaven). I also liked her veiled reference to Lucifer ("they thought any archangel would do") .   
Discussion Topic on Heaven's state: I think Naomi's done the right thing for now. Close the gates and try to hold on until help arrives. They are clearly on the hairy edge. I think Lucifer wasn't remotely interested in helping the Angels. Or 'doing his job'.  Jo kept telling him to do that.  But unlike what Dean said regarding Rowena, Lucifer had a shot in Heaven and he just squandered it. I think Lucifer is beyond redemption and Rowena provides a nice foil for his failings.  I think this current crisis in Heaven is going to put not just Gabriel but our boys in a pickle. If Gabriel needs his recovering grace to help Heaven (if he eve will stand up), is it okay to take some to go back to AU world?

Meeting Jessica: I liked her.  Sure, they live interesting lives, but how would do you entertain yourself on monitor duty in the bunker?  Watching Sam in the shower and Dean having "me" time?  I think she just wanted to creep them out a bit, cause it was fun, or she would have been more discrete. Regardless of motivation, I liked her candor. And if I was Sam or Dean, I'd call out her name every once in a while to see if she was still watching. 
Discussion Topic on Rowena's Fate: The show, IMO, is still Team Free Will.  With Dean, Billie said he had so many different 'ends' because of the choices he made.  But Rowena was clearly going to be killed by Sam.  I think Rowena is an anomaly.  Maybe she used to have more choices but once she broke the chains that bound her, now there's many choices she can still make but somehow only Sam will be able to kill her.  OR maybe there's something that requires a final choice on Rowena's part and only Sam is the one that she enables to kill her.  Either way, a 'natural witch' THIS powerful is probably noticeable on a cosmic level and thus some of the ways she can die may be very limited.  So it may not be that her exact fate is sealed but that there is a limited number of ways to kill her and something about Sam or something about the relationship b/w Sam and Rowena is what enables her to die. Either way, this is not going to be solved soon IMO.  This is setting up for later down the road.   
Discussion Topic on Dean spilling the bean to Rowena: Dean sees Death as reliable as Chuck when it comes to power. If Jessica says Sam kills Rowena, I think Dean completely believes it and is as relieved as Rowena.  Rowena is relieved because it won't be Sam.  Dean is relieved because I think he believes she won't end up killing Sam.  But I don't think he was certain of that until the end of the episode.  So...why'd he do it?  I think it was because he wanted Rowena to know that Sam is not swayed by her tears. Maybe it's a big brother thing but he didn't like Sam helping Rowena.  And now that he knows Sam ultimately kills Rowena, I think he's worried about a Ruby-like repeat.  So that was a "so there!" moment to Rowena.  And by the end of the episode, with her unable to bring herself to kill Sam, this further eases his worry.  

Rowena's story:   As others have mentioned, she really has been on this path since Amara/God. The first death at the hands of Lucifer shook her, but Amara & Chuck messed up her whole raison d'etra: get all the power. Because (as she said) they had all the power and it didn't make them happy.  She hasn't been on a world domination scheme since.  And her regret was leaving Fergus as a child (and not reconciling before Crowley's death) - she said it straight out.  When she was unambigously evil, she did (IMO) have real pride at what Crowley achieved. Now she's realized her selfishness put Fergus on a path to demonhood. And he was every bit as clever as she.  But Dean was right, Crowley made those choices.  Not everyone who is abandoned by their mother turns into the King of Hell.  I really like how she just completely came clean to Death and said "I don't know what I'm doing!".  Rowena really is a strong woman (and yay! for snarking back at Dean that she won't have a breakdown).  She naturally finds a new mission (save her son) and now has to start again as that's not going to happen.  She's also completely vulnerable to Sam (more on that below).  Also, I REALLY hope Bernard isn't dead.  She needs that loyalty.

Samwitch: Well, I don't know if it'll ever go romantic, but Sam and Rowena clearly have a special bond that's now been reinforced.  From the moment he chained her to that pole and they got in each other's faces, there's been a little frisson.  But it's still a crackship because Supernatural just doesn't do long-term romantic relationships for the boys.  And there's too much evil water under the bridge.  But they genuinely LIKE each other. Both are very clever people with regrets who have also been terrorized by Lucifer personally.  That's like a very small club.  So, I hope they continue to explore this because like Dean/Crowley or Dean/Cas, you learn more about your main characters (in this case Sam) through their interactions with others.  And Sam hasn't had that.  Not really.  I'm good with it being Rowena.  More sustainable than Gabriel IMO.

Foreshadowing potential: @catrox14 mentioned it on the previous page, but I thought it as well: are we gearing up for some sort of reset?  We've got:
- 'big dumb Winchesters stomping thru interdimensional rifts' (from Adv Thanatology). 
- Angels down to a tiny number shutting Heaven temporarily.
- Jessica talking about Death injecting a reset.  We've got Death saying she'll see Dean soon! (YIKES!). 
I don't know what is going to happen but I bet the scene where Jessica talks about a reset in this episode shows up in a "THEN" sequence.  I don't WANT a reset, so I hope that's avoided. 

This is an episode that bears multiple watching IMO.  A lot of chess pieces are being put in play. 

If they play out another Apocalypse with Dean!Michael the obvious reset is to season 6 and beyond. Loads off-season 6 hints this season starting with Dean's choice of suicide in Advanced Thanotology and chats with Death and the idea of mass culling matches up with the Titanic episode of course.  We started the season with an emphasis on monsters also a season six staple.  The other standout theme from six was noir.  We have hit that this season as  well most notably in the Maltese Falcon rip off A Holy Man, but there have been other noir flavored episodes this season.

The board is primed and loaded for this universe's Apocalypse with Dean!Michael and Lucifer I suspect.  As I said before I think AU Michael is a red herting, a classic noir trope. 

[takalotti]

Just regarding angels being needed for the structural integrity of Heaven:

 

So I’m wonder if the reason this wasn’t an issue back when Metatron booted the angels and also left Heaven himself was because Chuck was still around. I know he wasn’t IN Heaven, and Naomi said/implied the angels had to stay to keep it from crumbling (as opposed to roaming around outside of Heaven), but God is OMNIpotent while angels are super potent. However, if this is the reason, it could have easily been included in Naomi's explanation. "God isn’t around anymore so we 11 are the only things that can keep it running now."

 

Is there a minimum number of angels needed to keep Heaven running no matter what, or is it that more are needed the more souls you have in Heaven? Here’s why I ask. As soon as one of you ( @BoxManLocke I think) said "Burn it all down" I thought "Huh, that would be an interesting way for the series to end. Angels keep dying off, Heaven crumbles, billions of souls fall to earth as ghosts, TFW takes care of them ghostbuster-style maybe, Cas is the only angel left, boys die, Cas is able to power just enough of a Heaven for the boys to ascend and rest in peace with Cas watching over them for all eternity."

 

Isn't Lucifer still "trapped" in his Nick suit? Unless I’m forgetting something, he’s not a shapeshifter. So I don’t think he could disguise himself as Naomi if he wanted to.

Edited April 21, 2018 by takalotti

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, takalotti said:

Just regarding angels being needed for the structural integrity of Heaven:

 

So I’m wonder if the reason this wasn’t an issue back when Metatron booted the angels and also left Heaven himself was because Chuck was still around. I know he wasn’t IN Heaven, and Naomi said/implied the angels had to stay to keep it from crumbling (as opposed to roaming around outside of Heaven), but God is OMNIpotent while angels are super potent. However, if this is the reason, it could have easily been included in Naomi's explanation. "God isn’t around anymore so we 11 are the only things that can keep it running now."

 

Is there a minimum number of angels needed to keep Heaven running no matter what, or is it that more are needed the more souls you have in Heaven? Here’s why I ask. As soon as one of you ( @BoxManLocke I think) said "Burn it all down" I thought "Huh, that would be an interesting way for the series to end. Angels keep dying off, Heaven crumbles, billions of souls fall to earth as ghosts, TFW takes care of them ghostbuster-style maybe, Cas is the only angel left, boys die, Cas is able to power just enough of a Heaven for the boys to ascend and rest in peace with Cas watching over them for all eternity."

 

Isn't Lucifer still "trapped" in his Nick suit? Unless I’m forgetting something, he’s not a shapeshifter. So I don’t think he could disguise himself as Naomi if he wanted to.

 

I don't know if it was here or the spoiler thread but I question if Chuck really is a big enough dick to let the world burn because of his creations. That's not allowing free will or natural order, that's his own children's mess. I wonder if we're in for another Chuck appearance before it's all said and done. 

OTOH if this was the show's way of closing the door on the whole Heaven/angels storyline for the forseeable future, I'd be okay with that. Cas can stay on Earth with Dean and Sam, Jack can stay and rebuild the AU into paradise, and Lucifer can just frickin' die already. 

As to Luci/Naomi  and the Nick suit, you're right as far as canon goes but oh ha ha ha I can't even type that with a straight face. Maybe he astral projected her. 

I keed. Kinda. Sorta  

Edited April 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

don't know if it was here or the spoiler thread but I question if Chuck really is a big enough dick to let the world burn because of his creations. That's not allowing free will or natural order, that's his own children's mess. I wonder if we're in for another Chuck appearance before it's all said and done. 

That's why they should have never made Chuck God.  Now it's his responsibility to come down and fix everything and we don't need Sam and Dean for jack squat.

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

Isn't Lucifer still "trapped" in his Nick suit? Unless I’m forgetting something, he’s not a shapeshifter. So I don’t think he could disguise himself as Naomi if he wanted to.

I don't think an angel needs to leave his "meatsuit" to change appearance.  The trickster, AKA Gabriel, did it all the time.  Specifically in Mystery Spot and Changing Channels.  He would just morph back into his "normal" shape while talking.  That means he never really left it. He just kind of cloaked it somehow.  Angels are supposed to be more powerful than demons and some of them have even just changed appearance without getting a body. Asmodeus for one, but I'm pretty sure there have been a couple of others.

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's why they should have never made Chuck God.  Now it's his responsibility to come down and fix everything and we don't need Sam and Dean for jack squat.

I don't think an angel needs to leave his "meatsuit" to change appearance.  The trickster, AKA Gabriel, did it all the time.  Specifically in Mystery Spot and Changing Channels.  He would just morph back into his "normal" shape while talking.  That means he never really left it. He just kind of cloaked it somehow.  Angels are supposed to be more powerful than demons and some of them have even just changed appearance without getting a body. Asmodeus for one, but I'm pretty sure there have been a couple of others.

Too many cards yet for TFW to try.  I think Chuck would get back in it if Sam and Dean died, otherwise I think he's taking a vacation while they are around to cover for him.  Dick move, but I can see it.

[takalotti]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As to Luci/Naomi  and the Nick suit, you're right as far as canon goes but oh ha ha ha I can't even type that with a straight face. Maybe he astral projected her. 

 

Touché 

 

ON 4/20/2018 AT 6:01 PM, ANGELKITTY SAID:

Someone upthread said something about the alternate universe angels coming here to power Heaven. I think that's what will have to happen.

But then what happens to AW Heaven and all the souls in it?

Edited April 22, 2018 by takalotti

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, takalotti said:

So I’m wonder if the reason this wasn’t an issue back when Metatron booted the angels and also left Heaven himself was because Chuck was still around.

Also when did Metatron get a hold of the Angel Tablet? (I'm not that  great on season 8 and 9 details). If it was before the other angels fell, then theoretically he would have had god-like powers and been able to keep things going himself... it would also explain why he might've sent some angels back through the back door later when he got bored and came back to earth... to help keep heaven going. Of course the real reason is the writers hadn't thought of the "we need angels to keep heaven going" thing yet, but...

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Also when did Metatron get a hold of the Angel Tablet? (I'm not that  great on season 8 and 9 details). If it was before the other angels fell, then theoretically he would have had god-like powers and been able to keep things going himself... it would also explain why he might've sent some angels back through the back door later when he got bored and came back to earth... to help keep heaven going. Of course the real reason is the writers hadn't thought of the "we need angels to keep heaven going" thing yet, but...

I think he got the angel tablet in Holy Terror when he had Zeke kill Kevin.

[bearcatfan]

I don’t know if Metatron ever got hold of the angel tablet, but he was the one who transcribed it originally. He didn’t need to have it to know what was on it. 

Dean told Rowena that every real, permanent death was caused by Sam. He used the word permanent. I don’t need to hear Jessica say permanent to believe she specified that to Sam and Dean. 

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I don’t know if Metatron ever got hold of the angel tablet, but he was the one who transcribed it originally. He didn’t need to have it to know what was on it. 

Dean told Rowena that every real, permanent death was caused by Sam. He used the word permanent. I don’t need to hear Jessica say permanent to believe she specified that to Sam and Dean. 

Metatron's power was somehow tied to the tablet. He taunted Dean with it: 'Next time, try to be powered by the word of God'.  When Castiel smashed it (as Metatron was killing Dean), he became a regular angel again -thus they were able to 'arrest' him.

Edited April 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think he got the angel tablet in Holy Terror when he had Zeke kill Kevin.

Ah, thank you. In that case, then nope, Metatron wasn't god-powered until some time after he cast all of the other angels out. I wasn't sure, because I thought maybe the spell he did and the tablet went together, and that that - the god power - was how he didn't get himself cast out with the other angels. Not sure how he did that now. I would think the spell would have also cast Metatron out, too, unless he somehow had some sort of power to except himself. Kind of like how Castiel couldn't be killed with an angel sword after he took in all of the purgatory souls.

So yeah, I'm not sure now how Metatron excepted himself, and it would seem to contradict what we learned in this episode.

Despite the mwah ha ha of it, I appreciated Castiel explaining in season 6 why he wasn't killed by the angel sword... at least we got an explanation there.

[DeeDee79]

This ep was so-so to me but I did get a good laugh out of Cas saying "She has a point.. You two don't go to parties" and the looks that followed from Sam and Dean.

Edited April 22, 2018 by DeeDee79
"two" not "too" *sigh*

[Bergamot]

On 4/20/2018 at 2:58 PM, Aeryn13 said:

I thought the ending scene was good, though. Everyone was toned down. Rowena wasn`t as histrionic but had moved into acceptance. Everyone was both a bit glum and solemn but also calm about it, maybe with an air of hopefullness. That came across well. 

I rewatched the episode, and I agree with your comment about the ending scene -- it did work pretty well, with them all sitting on the floor of the hotel room, nursing their wounds and talking quietly to each other. I liked that they were not full of bravado or even optimism, but there still was, as you say, at least some hopefulness.

(But I still don't like Rowena's "Sam, what have I done?" line. Whatever that was supposed to convey, it didn't work for me. Rowena has always known exactly what she has done and why; she didn't go in for self-deception.)

One moment I did like was when Sam said that Rowena not killing him was progress, and Dean inserts a side comment that in his view it was more like a miracle. Rowena gives him a dirty look and Dean shoots it right back at her without any sign of an apology, his gaze warning her that he won't forget things and doesn't trust her and has his eye on her. Just a quick exchange of glances, but it made clear that they both understand each other.

However, the one thing in that scene which totally did not work for me was the way they carefully presented to Rowena the news that Lucifer was back, as if it were the most horrifying news imaginable. Sorry, but if the show wanted us to see Lucifer as someone whose very name freezes anyone's heart with terror, then they have failed utterly. That whiny, pathetic baby who sits around feeling sorry for himself, quite literally chanting "me, Me, ME!"? It's way too late now for them to try to make him out to be some kind of terrifying big bad.

The last time I can remember thinking that the show had a really scary big bad was with Alastair. Sure, Lucifer can make people explode with a snap of his fingers, but so what?  That is nothing compared to how horrifying it was to watch Alastair's psychological torture of Dean, as he explained to him, with great satisfaction and pleasure, how he had carved him into a new creature. Because of the scene where the captured Alastair starts to sing -- "Heaven, I'm in heaven" -- when Dean enters the room to torture him, the song "Cheek to Cheek" still gives me a little chill whenever I hear it now. Brrr!

Edited April 22, 2018 by Bergamot

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

This ep was so-so to me but I did get a good laugh out of Cas saying "She has a point.. You too don't go to parties" and the looks that followed from Sam and Dean.

That's probably my favorite Cas line in a long time.  It was something season 5 Cas would have said and in the same tone of voice.

[gonzosgirrl]

40 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

One moment I did like was when Sam said that Rowena not killing him was progress, and Dean inserts a side comment that in his view it was more like a miracle. Rowena gives him a dirty look and Dean shoots it right back at her without any sign of an apology, his gaze warning her that he won't forget things and doesn't trust her and has his eye on her. Just a quick exchange of glances, but it made clear that they both understand each other.

I fully admit to seeing a lot of things through my Dean-goggles (#sorrynotsorry), and what struck me about this scene/exchange is that she appealed to Sam for sympathy, but she looked to Dean for approval. I totally agree with your perception of their exchange, but I'd add in Rowena's flash of (?)gratitude when Dean said he did think she could be redeemed.

The same thing happened with Jack.

Edited April 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[bettername2come]

On 4/20/2018 at 3:54 PM, catrox14 said:

I swear I think Sam is in love with Rowena. I really do.

They've got me kind of shipping Sam and Rowena, which makes me think I know exactly how Sam's going to kill her. 

 

On 4/21/2018 at 12:49 PM, SueB said:

So older, evil or evil-seeking-redemption women.  And short.  Ruby 2 was smallish -- not as wee as Rowena but smallish.  Man, Jess is looking more and more like an anomaly.  

Well, look at what happened when Sam dated an age-appropriate, tall, good woman. No wonder he did a complete 180 in his type.

[Bergamot]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd add in Rowena's flash of (?)gratitude when Dean said he did think she could be redeemed.

The same thing happened with Jack.

Yes. And I think it was clear in each case that Dean would not say what he did to them because of politeness or sentimentality or to smooth things over, or even just to be kind, but only if he really believed it. Which is why it meant something.

I think we also saw it a little bit with Ketch, when Ketch said that he would help save Charlie, even though earlier he had said that it was probably impossible and stupid. Dean looks surprised, and then says with a grin, "Impossible and stupid, huh? You say that like it's a bad thing!", and even gives him a friendly shoulder punch. I think that maybe there is a little flash of gratitude from Ketch at Dean's response.

[Bobcatkitten]

The reason I asked about Rowena's age is I was shocked recently to find out how young the actress was. People were talking about her and
Sam and I thought, "isn't she a bit old for him?" The makeup they are doing on her is doing her no favors. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The reason I asked about Rowena's age is I was shocked recently to find out how young the actress was. People were talking about her and
Sam and I thought, "isn't she a bit old for him?" The makeup they are doing on her is doing her no favors. 

They may be trying to make her older because she's a witch, or she just may be one of those people who look older than their age.

[MysteryGuest]

They've always overdone her eye makeup, IMO, but I don't think she looks older than what she is in real life.  

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

They may be trying to make her older because she's a witch, or she just may be one of those people who look older than their age.

I thought they were trying to lesson the age difference between she and Crowley. 

 

And Scarlett Red lipstick ages everyone, whether you want it or not.  

[SueB]

Rewatching the episode again (for science), I definitely think that Jensen took the fall when the fight starts with BERnard (*written that way because I now say his name with a Scottish accent and in the style of Rowena Macleod* Ahem.).  As he comes around the corner and the arm goes out, we are at a camera angel from the side.  Slowing down the shot, you can see the arm throw and Jensen start to rear back. The camera cuts to face-on.  It's STILL Jensen through the rearing back and feet flying. But we don't see the ground.  Which means he could have flipped back onto a massive pad.  The camera then cuts to Jensen on the floor and BERnard raising his foot to stomp him.  That's an easy break point for them to come in, remove the pad, and re-lay Jensen down to start filming again.

Most impressive stunt work.  The only assist from the stunt double (I think) was when 'Dean' gets thrown against the wall/table and the table breaks and when 'Dean' drives BERnard to the floor at the end.  I could only see it was the stunt double's face for the last shot.  You don't see a face for the wall/table manuever.

Again... just providing some admiration here for science.   

[Pondlass1]

Thanks @SueB  Jensen has admitted he enjoys the fight choreography and I think the head of that department has been with the show for years - he's featured in many gag reels and very well respected.  I'm surprised these guys don't get hurt more often, tho.  They do a lot of their own stuff.  But it was a great fight scene with not too many camera cuts which made it more real.   I can appreciate the time and effort that must go into things like this.

[Myrelle]

I'm getting set to re-watch this one for Jensen's facial expressions.

Heh. I think I got myself curious through the discussion here, tbh. ;-)

[strippedhalo]

17 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

The reason I asked about Rowena's age is I was shocked recently to find out how young the actress was. People were talking about her and
Sam and I thought, "isn't she a bit old for him?" The makeup they are doing on her is doing her no favors. 

I really agree. I thought the actress was maybe 10 years older than me, so to find out that she's almost two years younger than me is shocking. Maybe I just internalized her being Crowley's mother, plus her hair, makeup, and wardrobe. Geez.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, strippedhalo said:

I really agree. I thought the actress was maybe 10 years older than me, so to find out that she's almost two years younger than me is shocking. Maybe I just internalized her being Crowley's mother, plus her hair, makeup, and wardrobe. Geez.

She's a year younger than Jensen, and only 3 years older than Jared. She is quite lovely (and VERY tiny!) in person, but the heavy make-up on the show doesn't do her any favours. This episode in particular, I wondered if they exaggerated her appearance after her 'unbinding' and then, in her words, fighting Death and losing.

To be fair I thought Cas/Misha looked pretty haggard upon his return to Earth with Naomi after learning of Heaven's dilemmas. They are all carrying heavy loads. at the moment.

Edited April 23, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

On 4/20/2018 at 5:36 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Was that a lesson about the butterfly effect or was that a lesson about the universe's rules.

I don't think that was a butterfly effect situation.  I think the problem was that Dean did not follow the rules.  Death wanted him to learn a lesson.

Perhaps the butterfly effect came up latter in the titanic episode. I do not renember.

Nah it's the same thing, because it still showed the butterfly effect, in effect, change one thing and other things change after it, but either way Dean's dealt with it before he knows what it is.  

[Bobcatkitten]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She's a year younger than Jensen, and only 3 years older than Jared. She is quite lovely (and VERY tiny!) in person, but the heavy make-up on the show doesn't do her any favours. This episode in particular, I wondered if they exaggerated her appearance after her 'unbinding' and then, in her words, fighting Death and losing.

To be fair I thought Cas/Misha looked pretty haggard upon his return to Earth with Naomi after learning of Heaven's dilemmas. They are all carrying heavy loads. at the moment.

I have thought Cas looks very old in recent episodes with bags and lines etc. 

[bethy]

I finally watched and I don't have much to add beyond wondering how - with all the hair products Sam evidently has - Jared's hair can look so bad. Why have they stuck with the Prince Valiant bob on him? 

[Jeddah]

25 minutes ago, bethy said:

I finally watched and I don't have much to add beyond wondering how - with all the hair products Sam evidently has - Jared's hair can look so bad. Why have they stuck with the Prince Valiant bob on him? 

I like Sam’s hair. It’s so smooth and shiny!  

I also like the idea of some fraud team at the credit card company looking at how much was spent on hair care products.

[Bobcatkitten]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

I finally watched and I don't have much to add beyond wondering how - with all the hair products Sam evidently has - Jared's hair can look so bad. Why have they stuck with the Prince Valiant bob on him? 

Thank you! I think his hair looks so weird this season. It's poofy and like a helmet. 

[BoxManLocke]

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Thanks @SueB  Jensen has admitted he enjoys the fight choreography and I think the head of that department has been with the show for years - he's featured in many gag reels and very well respected.  I'm surprised these guys don't get hurt more often, tho.  They do a lot of their own stuff.  But it was a great fight scene with not too many camera cuts which made it more real.   I can appreciate the time and effort that must go into things like this.

Fight scenes have been really good these last couple of seasons. They stopped using the dumb "two camera cuts for every punch" technique that was there during Carver's era, thank god. It made every fight look like crap, especially Misha's.

I really enjoy the kind of raw, violent brawls they put Dean into. It's a far cry from the almost kung-fu like moves they used to have in the first season but it's just more realisitic and enjoyable.

[devlin]

I found the ending of this episode quite puzzling. Apparently Rowena had no intention on killing Sam, which yay for him and progress for Rowena, but I would love to know what she told Bernard in regards to Dean. Whether her intentions were for Bernard  to kill him and the only reason he is still alive is coz he bested him which cancels out any progress on rowena’s behalf.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, devlin said:

I found the ending of this episode quite puzzling. Apparently Rowena had no intention on killing Sam, which yay for him and progress for Rowena, but I would love to know what she told Bernard in regards to Dean. Whether her intentions were for Bernard  to kill him and the only reason he is still alive is coz he bested him which cancels out any progress on rowena’s behalf.

She did say Bernard was overly enthusiastic (or words to that effect), so I think his assignment was to stop Dean from interfering with her plan for Sam, not to kill him (though if he had, I doubt she would've fired him for it, ;).

OTOH, I don't know if I believe she never intended to kill Sam. She was well on her way before Billie showed up, which was her goal in all the killings - to get an audience with her and demand she bring back Crowley (which still makes me roll my eyes pretty hard). Finding out Sam was the only one who could kill her (more eye-rolling) and thus stop her, was pretty compelling reason to do it. She wanted redemption, but for her treatment of Crowley - and she was willing to sacrifice Sam to get it. She said she was sorry, but she proceeded with her plan and only stopped because Billie showed up. Then she got remorseful. So yeah, I don't buy that she never intended to go through with it.

So maybe she did intend for Bernard to take out Dean. You don't kill Sam Winchester and leave Dean alive, unless you have a death wish yourself.

Edited April 24, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You don't kill Sam Winchester and leave Dean alive, unless you have a death wish yourself.

But, apparently ONLY Sam can kill her.  Eye roll.

[Pondlass1]

Did Dean kill Bernard?  Or just mess him up?

Geez - all this eye-rolling... 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Did Dean kill Bernard?  Or just mess him up?

Geez - all this eye-rolling... 

I think he just choked him out.

[bearcatfan]

Fwiw, I don’t think that only Sam can kill her, it’s just that all of her choices lead to Sam killing her. That’s likely because Sam has taken responsibility for doing so if she goes bad. I’m sure Dean could, but unless Sam was physically unable, Sam is going to tell Dean that he will deal with it. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Fwiw, I don’t think that only Sam can kill her, it’s just that all of her choices lead to Sam killing her. That’s likely because Sam has taken responsibility for doing so if she goes bad. I’m sure Dean could, but unless Sam was physically unable, Sam is going to tell Dean that he will deal with it. 

What doesn't make sense to me is this:

Jessica: But in Rowena MacLeod's notebook, her death is always the same -- She's killed, Sam Winchester, by you.

The fact that she's already been killed* by Lucifer, twice, not withstanding, if she is 'always' killed by Sam, then why does it happen more than once? If he's her permanent death, then shouldn't she be dead the first time he kills her? Why are there enough scenarios to warrant an 'always'?  The circular logic (or lack thereof) here makes my head hurt.

*I don't accept that she wasn't dead-dead. It was a resurrection spell, not a keep-you-from-dying-in-the-first-place spell ffs.

[bearcatfan]

My understanding was that they were possible deaths based on potential choices a person makes. That every choice Rowena could possibly make that leads to her permanent death, Sam is the one that kills her. Not that Sam kills her over and over. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

My understanding was that they were possible deaths based on potential choices a person makes. That every choice Rowena could possibly make that leads to her permanent death, Sam is the one that kills her. Not that Sam kills her over and over. 

It still takes more suspension of logic than I can handle. Based on that, a person could have a million 'books' in that room, just by deciding not to cross against the light every day.

ETA: And if Lucifer himself couldn't kill her most sincerely dead, if that resurrection spell work even when you're stomped to death and burned to ashes, then how is Sam or anyone else going to kill her? I don't see it, unless it's with her cooperation.

Edited April 24, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It still takes more suspension of logic than I can handle. Based on that, a person could have a million 'books' in that room, just by deciding not to cross against the light every day.

Now that I think of it, it's kind of weird. I mean weirder than I already thought it was.  You wouldn't think you could have fate already marked out AND the butterfly effect.  And, if everybody does have multiples ways and times of dying, then how was Rowena killing them before their time?  Surely her doing it was in one of their books.  And, if her doing it wasn't in one of her books, then surely anybody could end up killing Rowena, since clearly those books aren't infallible.  

My head hurts.  

[SueB]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It still takes more suspension of logic than I can handle. Based on that, a person could have a million 'books' in that room, just by deciding not to cross against the light every day.

Everytime I think of Sam being the one who kills Rowena, I think of this line from "Merlin" (Morgause speaking to Morgana):
 

Quote

There are many futures, Sister. Some are shrouded in mist, and others are clear as cut glass.

That show lived with a 'destiny' theme and yet managed to subvert it multiple times.  In this particular case, I just think that like Mary's decision regarding her deal, there are some 'bigger' choices than others that the Supernatural writers have decided are part of the SPN Universe construct.  I think it's a Dabb-construct. 

[takalotti]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It still takes more suspension of logic than I can handle. Based on that, a person could have a million 'books' in that room, just by deciding not to cross against the light every day.

Well, not every decision branches to "life" or "death". Picking peas or carrots as a side dish likely doesn’t have a death outcome either way, so that won’t have an entry in Billie's books. Turning left or right at an intersection could have "nothing special happens" vs. "get into a non-fatal accident" consequences.

[bearcatfan]

I have to laugh that I’m not being logical. I’m a C on the DISC assessment. A strong C. It literally states that I take a logical, objective approach to my work to ensure accuracy. Maybe it’s because I’m so logical and analytical in my daily life, I can easily suspend disbelief when viewing works of fiction. It’s one reason I read fictional works rather than bibliographies. 

 

There were a lot of books in that room.